NCAA Infraction Committee Hearing for UNC Set

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Both Roy Williams and Larry Fedora were requested to appear by the NCAA.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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Fedora seems to be a pointless addition. He wasn't the man in charge when this all went down, so its not like he'd be able to answer for any of what happened. And you know Roy will just fill time with his typical 'aww shucks' attitude and everything will gloss over.

And even if the NCAA grows a spine and actually tries to punish UNC, the school will just file a series of lawsuits in NC courts to get it wiped away. Doesn't hurt that a vast majority of lawyers and judges in NC graduated from the UNC School of Law.

Don't let this comment take away from the fact that Arkansas blew a 24 point 2nd half lead in the Belk Bowl.
Don't let the Belk Bowl take away from the fact that Matt Ryan blew a 25 point 2nd half lead in the Super Bowl.

I hate that you're probably right about this, but I also think this case (and other similar ones) will be brought up in the future when the whole "student athletes shouldn't be paid because they get a college degree" argument comes back around. UNC isn't providing their end of the bargain.

Except, when Rashanda McCants sued UNC and the NCAA jointly back in 2015, the NCAA already said in court that they cannot be held responsible for enforcing academic sanctity of the education provided by their institutions. So while UNC certainly isn't holding up their end, the NCAA has already gone on record to wash their hands of jurisdiction in this very case.

The NCAA acknowledged that the type of alleged academic fraud that is the subject of the suit "is without question a serious concern for all students."

But it also argued that that plaintiffs were attempting to hold the association accountable for "conduct the NCAA did not and could not control."

" ... The NCAA did not assume a duty to ensure the quality of education student-athletes received at member institutions or to protect student-athletes from the independent, voluntary acts of those institutions or their employees," the association wrote.

They're already fucked. UNC has already won. We just haven't gone through the legality of it, yet.

Don't let this comment take away from the fact that Arkansas blew a 24 point 2nd half lead in the Belk Bowl.
Don't let the Belk Bowl take away from the fact that Matt Ryan blew a 25 point 2nd half lead in the Super Bowl.

I disagree with your reasoning. The NCAA has authority to punish athletic programs if they allow academically ineligible student athletes to compete. Therefore, the NCAA can punish athletic programs if they create loopholes to ensure student athletes that normally would be academically ineligible would remain eligible.

I will admit that I haven't read the pleadings in that case but there is a difference between owing an athlete a duty regarding the quality of his/her education (aka being liable for suit from a student for academic fraud at a college/university) and having jurisdiction to enforce penalties for what occurred at UNC (aka hammering a college/university for admitted academic fraud).

The NCAA cannot force a school to do anything academically - they can only punish them in terms of sports.

Not ensuring the quality of the degree is different than prohibiting schools from gaining an unfair athletic advantage by making fake classes

Recruit Prosim

I wonder if they will call in Butch Davis, and other past UNC coaches as well.

Its gonna be a long line...

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Glory is Forever
Let's Go Hokies!!

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

If it's raining is UNC going to say it doesn't count?

VT BSEE '98, VT MSME '01

I'm in Nashville today...and it's raining!

Worlds are colliding!!!

We put the K in Kwality

Finally!

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Seems appropriate

"Welcome to the Terror Dome." -- Corey Moore

Oh snap. UNC's really gonna get it now!! I bet their chess team will never recover from the sanctions...

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Live look at the proceedings:

Sorry to be dumb, but what does this even mean? Is this the trial or sentencing?

Basically the trial. Opportunity for Infractions Committee to state their case and for the university to respond. Specific questions asked and cross examination similar to a trial.

-@no1hokie86

UNC will do what it always does. As we get closer to the scheduled hearing they will say that they discovered "new" potential violations and need more time to properly investigate. Thus resetting the clock, again.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Let's Go

HOKIES

If you're reading the above post and thinking, "is this guy serious?!?," you can safely assume I'm not.

Lol, ain't nobody sitting around waiting for nothing to happen. Unc is too valuable and the ncaa is too incompetent. Good stuff. Case closed.

Both wrestling and field hockey at Appalachian State are gonna get absolutely hammered here.

Today's the day, fam

Edit: Replaced a UNC fan's tweet with This Article

Nothin' gon' happen...

Yes it will: golf, cross country, track and wrestling will all be punished badly along with the disbanding of all club teams.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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If this was a serious inquiry, it would take a lot longer than two days.

This is just the day UNC folks get asked questions and have to answer the boards questions. The investigation has taken a long time. UNC has used NCAA rules to their advantage to try and stale.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Just as a heads up it looks like talks will continue tomorrow after 9 1/2 hours today. Even then no information will be made public (in the short term) unless UNCheat does it.

Sometimes I like to leave off the /s just to mess with people.

They're probably discussing how unfair any sanctions would be to the fans and current players. You know, after all these delays that UNC created.

While that is true, I am still hoping for the death penalty. The scope of the cheating that went on bothers me even more than the boats and ho's that Miami did under Shapiro. It would destroy their programs and greatly harm the ACC, but I think the punishment is deserved.

If Penn State didn't get it, I'm afraid it no longer exists.

Eh. There is definitely an argument that the NCAA shouldn't have been involved in the Penn State matters. I still believe It was awful and terrible and the federal/state government should have punished them harshly. It wasn't a clear cut competitive advantage as much as Baylor and UNC were.

"Facyson is a baller."
-CFB

Found this from a former student....thoughts?

Former UNC Student

Indifferent. From what I gathered, this class was never about how it was taught especially to non-athletes. The big issue with it was that athletes either - A. did not write their paper themselves, or B. wrote it poorly and received a grade that did not match what was on paper. This class was used as an easy grade that did not require much work for the athletes.

It does sound like it was typical of many independent study classes everywhere in that you put in what you want to get out. The difference between UNC and other schools is that if you don't put effort into an independent study, you will receive poor marks. This was not the case with UNC athletes.

He put in a lot of effort and and got out a lot of satisfaction. This investigation should not detract from what he got out of the class.

"Facyson is a baller."
-CFB

The problem with fake classes is that they devalue everyone else's efforts and degree.

My thoughts: a 54 year old undergrad student is going to be trying hard in every single class regardless of the legitimacy of the curriculum

Counterpoint: He took this class because it was easy to pad his credit hours because he worked full time and had a long commute.

Recruit Prosim

Definitely a possibility. Could be that he took it to pad his grades and still took it more seriously than the bogus curriculum required

As a credential, it's worth the minimum work required to attain it, not the maximum someone put in.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. One guy (who is probably trying harder than anyone else in most of his classes in the first place) isn't going to convince me that UNC wasn't cheating just by saying he worked hard

Instead of being defensive to the program and trying to use his experience to burnish the reputation of 'Carolina' and the AFAM department, he should be fucking pissed that those motherfuckers tarnished his degree with the fake ass bullshit they were pulling so they could keep the teams eligible (and get them more time/energy/focus for football without having to worry about 'school'). I wonder how he really feels about his 'classmates' who got the same or better grades despite not writing the papers?

Also, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. And that's only one story. And (with no offense to Aspen) the Australian Yahoo sports page is a weird platform to seek out to tell one's story about 'Carolina'

For those of you who haven't Keyed Up yet, please do so.
-OkieHokie

I think the AFAM classes may have been very legitimate for nonathletes. Independent study exists at many schools. The alarming rate at which athletes were funneled into the courses at UNC and advisors saying they just need a C or D to remain eligible is what is the red flag for me.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

The students couldn't pick their classes. One student was enrolled in Swahili and he didn't have a say in it!

I work in higher ed administration. I know the challenges posed by fitting a athlete's schedule and a student's schedule together, but that's fucked if a student has no say in the courses they take.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

Yep. It was on Inside Sports, 60 mins, whatever.

One player was signed up for Swahili that he had no interest in taking it and had no use for it.

Not True

Every student athlete sits down with an Athletic Academic Advisor to go over/plan the upcoming class schedule and make sure that classes needed for major and random electives (GPA BOOSTERS) are taken. There are a ton of requirements that are in place to make sure each athlete is on course to graduate and if not then they get put on academic plan.

40 percent of required coursework for a degree must be complete by the end of the second year, 60 percent by the end of the third year and 80 percent by the end of their fourth year. Student-athletes are allowed five years of eligibility and athletically related financial aid

Nothing in your post contradicts what the poster above said... in fact it only supports it. "make sure that ... random electives (GPA BOOSTERS) are taken..." .... "makes sure..." easily translates into "you have to take this Swahili class, you'll get an easy B and stay eligible even if you get a D in accounting"

or, "if not they get put on academic plan" ... "academic plan" aka take these classes or else.

finally don't forget there are the way things are supposed to work, and the way things actually work. Some schools are more by the book than others..

edit: thanks for the update, have a leg!

Was more commenting the fact that the athlete/student said he didn't want to or knew he was taking said class. They go over this and pick the classes together and sign off on it. Absolutely every school has electives that are easier but student still has to show up, do the work, and get the proper grades.

Bowling, basket weaving, underwater yoga, are some of the electives that we recommend for our student athletes.

basket weaving

This is a real class? I always thought that it was just something people made up as a fake generic class.

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior" Stephen M.R. Covey

“When life knocks you down plan to land on your back, because if you can look up, you can get up, if you fall flat on your face it can kill your spirit” David Wilson

yeah there is Underwater Basket Weaving UBW202 and Basket Weaving BW201...

I guess the narrative Yahoo is trying to push is that because he was enrolled in the class and allegedly did all his work without assistance/actually did work every other person in the class did as well?

Meh, not to be bullish about it but - so what? Just because you worked hard doesn't mean the allegations are false. It's great there's an antithetical story, but it does nothing to discredit the allegations against the athletes that were enrolled in the class and did literally no work.

"I want to punch people from UVA right in the neck, don't ever come on my show and talk about your football." - Colin Cowherd

So after 15 hours over 2 days talks are officially over. Nothing will be revealed until NCAA comes up with/releases an official verdict (which could take a while). When UNCheat last faced the committee in 2011 it took 136 days for a ruling to become public.

Sometimes I like to leave off the /s just to mess with people.

Today (8/18/18) + 136 days = Jan 1st 2018. That's 37 days to flip all the UNC recruits.

Today (8/18/18)

Since your posting from the future would you mind telling us who we beat in the national championship game?

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

It's clear drewnell has access to 1.21 gigawatts

Let's Go

HOKIES

Also

Today (8/18/18) + 136 days = Jan 1st 2018.

He must have traveled back in time on 8/18/18 to Jan 1st 2018

I swear to drunk, I'm not God

I was very surprised to see it but we beat WVU at Fedex and run the table the rest of the year finally beating LOLUVA 72-0. Meanwhile, WVU and Mountain Jesus go undefeated after losing to us and we meet up in the National Championship and pick him off 5 times with 6 sacks to win 35-0.

Who wants to make a bet that the results will be held until after the signing deadline?

.
"Step on a crack, break Miami's bak"

- ThatOneGuy

Depends. Are we talking the Basketball or Football signing date?

I bet the results don't come down until April 2nd, after the final signing date for football. Basketball will already be in.

.
"Step on a crack, break Miami's bak"

- ThatOneGuy

I'm thinking the report will be released in mid-late October.

Probably not until they're mathematically eliminated from the Coastal race sometime in November.

This article from the Charlotte Observer (month old) quotes Jay Bilas arguing that the NCAA doesn't have the jurisdiction to punish UNC.

NCAA rules intentionally don't cover academic matters like UNC's, Bilas said, because university presidents don't want the NCAA to govern their classrooms.

Bilas explains the difficult the NCAA will run into is based on it's rulebook

"Academic fraud, to the NCAA, is a player cheating the school," Bilas said. "It is not the school's curriculum."

Bilas opines the NCAA is looking to punish UNC, though the federal courts may still have a say due to the jurisdiction issue.

Should the NCAA heavily penalize UNC, Bilas thinks the university would be justified in taking legal action. Federal courts typically shy away from relitigating cases like this one, but Bilas said a judge might step in if the NCAA doesn't follow its own rules.

There is much more detail in the full article.

bullshit and posturing

Recruit Prosim

I saw on a certain other message board that one guy claiming #sauces said UNCheat will sue if they are hit with anything.

Sometimes I like to leave off the /s just to mess with people.

sue them for what?

Recruit Prosim

Oh I have no earthly idea (nor do I agree with it obviously). I'm just relaying the statements of some guy on the internet in response to the quote from the article that questhokie linked.

Bilas thinks the university would be justified in taking legal action

Sometimes I like to leave off the /s just to mess with people.

If the NCAA slaps UNC with anything, they will sue in federal court and argue that the NCAA has no jurisdiction over this issue. They have contended for some time that this is purely an academic issue and therefore only subject to penalties issued by their accrediting body (which did put them on probation).

the NCAA will/should then be able to get examples of the assignments that each student turned in.. that will then help them decide whether it was the whole class or just certain student athletes benefiting.

Jay Bilas has had a anti-NCAA hard-on for years, so its not surprising to hear him completely on the defensive about UNC. I'm sure the fact that ESPN has a shitload of money to gain by the NCAA policies burning down to allow players to financially capitalize on their likeness has absolutely nothing to do with his stance the last few years.

Don't let this comment take away from the fact that Arkansas blew a 24 point 2nd half lead in the Belk Bowl.
Don't let the Belk Bowl take away from the fact that Matt Ryan blew a 25 point 2nd half lead in the Super Bowl.

It becomes and NCAA problem/issue the minute an athlete is involved with said classes.

If athletes are benefiting from a fraudulent class to keep them eligible to play a sport then that is a schools issue to conduct an investigation. The NCAA will take in this information and can decide to penalize the school based on findings.

Remember when Notre Dame had to vacate wins from 2012 and 2013 because they had a student trainer do coursework for football players? Notre Dame came out and said the kids violated the school's academic policy not the NCAA's academic policy.

The fact that UNC has somewhat covered it up shows that they're not really in the mood to fix the issue and rather sweep it under the rug.. That is why the NCAA is more involved with this case, its because UNC is doing a poor job of investigating.

Yeah, in Notre Dame's case it was a little more clear-cut. Reps of the Athletic Dept were breaking the Academic policies (do your own school work) as well as NCAA rules (athletes must do their own school work).

With UNC, things are a little more cloudy. UNC is falling on their sword of "hey these BS classes are legit! We would have created them even without scholarship athletes who needed easy A's ! We promise!" Bilas and UNC are going to argue that Academics policy/programs/classes, no matter how easy and coast-worthy, are not the realm of the NCAA because everyone can take those garbage classes.

Meanwhile the NCAA is saying hold on a second... easy classes are fine when created out of a legit academic purpose, but in this case elements of the Academic community to improperly colluded with the Athletic Dept and were influenced to create Academic policies/programs specifically to create a beneficial situation for athletes. Add to the fact that normal students who worked their asses off on these independent study courses got the same grades as athletes who put in zero effort goes to show that Athletics was improper influence on the academic staff in charge of those programs.

Not as cut-and-dried as breaking the Academic rules, but in fact a lot worse because the Academic rule-makers lost sight of their mission and let Athletics dictate their curriculum.

If athletes are benefiting from a fraudulent class to keep them eligible to play a sport then that is a schools issue to conduct an investigation.

This is the key... If the class is open to everyone, and everyone is graded at the same level, is it a "fraudulent" class?

Twitter me

If a court case does happen imagine all the juicy testimony from the UNC administration having to describe the said classes and the curriculum for the world to hear. If that happens, good, it'll be clear to the world that they cheapened the value of their college degrees. It may not change the results of the case, but a lot of people will think differently about UNC without equivocation.

Pain is Temporary
Chicks Dig Scars
Glory is Forever
Let's Go Hokies!!

It blows my mind that Bilas can't take a step back, look at the situation and say yes what UNC was doing was extremely wrong.

I don't particularly like UNC so take that into account but I feel like a 10 year old can see right from wrong if presented with what happened.

"What UNC did is wrong" and "What UNC did falls under NCAA jurisdiction" are two separate issues. I happen to think this is indeed a matter for the NCAA (because it was designed to keep players eligible) but if you think the rules don't cover academic issues then it really doesn't matter how awful you consider the conduct. This is why the NCAA didn't try to take PSU to the Committee on Infractions (and eventually vacated its punishments once the lawsuits hit) and has yet to take Baylor there even though you could make a pretty strong argument that there's more of a case against Baylor than PSU. Sometimes the rulebook you want isn't the rulebook you have.

Bilas is employed by ESPN and he and his family still live in NC. Even though he and his wife are Dukies, his bias isn't surprising.

Can't spell Bilas with out BIAS eh? eh?

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

You can and probably do if you got a degree from UNC.

The infractions are under the NCAA preview as they are intended to give the university an unfair advantage in athletics.

We put the K in Kwality

Seems rather obvious, but definitely needs to be said.

rather obvious until the legal obfuscation sets in. UNC will probably win a hundred million and be granted the sole right to waive classes for athletes.

.
"Step on a crack, break Miami's bak"

- ThatOneGuy

It's not related to the committee hearing, but I just wanted to drop this here for anyone curious about how UNC feels they will match up against us this year. The "prediction" section at the end is what killed me.

2017 Opponent Preview: Virginia Tech

Man this guy really knows our program well...

As it sits, the Hokies seem to have a heated battle between redshirt-freshman Josh Jackson, JUCO transfer A.J. Bush, and redshirt-sophomore Jack Click

CLICK CLICK BOOM!!!

Sometimes I like to leave off the /s just to mess with people.

What a fool, everyone knows Kurt Benkert is our starting QB

It's not related to the committee hearing

Generally a good sign that you should be starting a new thread. Something that is of potential interest and can generate discussion should be put in its own thread, rather than buried in something unrelated.

UNC is dangerously overconfident in their defense this year. It wasn't that good last year, and they just lost their great DC. If they regress at all this year on that side of the ball, which is likely given their coaching losses, things will get ugly in Chapel Hill.

Would not be shocked to see the unrest in that fanbase return this year after a couple years away. They really don't have a team or coaching staff built for the ACC title game this year, but their fans expect nothing less, and when that fails to happen... yikes.

Don't let this comment take away from the fact that Arkansas blew a 24 point 2nd half lead in the Belk Bowl.
Don't let the Belk Bowl take away from the fact that Matt Ryan blew a 25 point 2nd half lead in the Super Bowl.

So when does a former athlete sue the University for not providing compensation for use of their likeness and revenue earned from the athlete's performance. If all the can't-put-a-price-on-an-education types say the athletes are compensated by the education their scholarship provides, but the student isn't actually getting an education, then UNC owes each athlete an amount equivalent to the priceless education. This wouldn't fall under labor laws as the students were found not to be employees in a separate lawsuit, but is there some law this falls under?

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

Contract Law.

“I remember Lee Corso's car didn't get out of the parking lot.” -cFB

Fraud

IANAL, but it's difficult to bring a claim against someone else when you were active participant in the scheme. For example, in order to claim fraud, you generally have to show that the bad guy made a material misrepresentation, knowingly, in order to induce you to take some action that benefits him, and that you believed whatever it was he told you and that doing so caused your injury. An athlete who knowingly accepted credit for a class that didn't (really) exist is going to have a tough time meeting the last one IMO.

But hey, even if all it does is heap more bad publicity on UNCheat, I hope some creative lawyer takes a shot at it!

"Those who jump into the void owe no explanation to those who stand and watch."
--unknown

What would be fair sentencing, should the NCAA come down on UNC? Yes, the players who are there now were not (theoretically) responsible for the cheating that allegedly took place, nor was the football staff that is there now, and punishing them for "sins of the father" may not be fair nor just. But if the allegations against Carolina are found to be true by the NCAA some penalty must be enacted that would be punishment enough to discourage this from happening again.

If I were in place of sentencing, I could see handing down a penalty somewhere along the following:

Retroactive:
Vacating all wins by the teams including conference and national championships.

Progressing from date of sentencing:
1) 2 years of exhibition only games throughout the respective seasons. They can still play, but the games don't count for W-Ls. As a result, no revenue beyond ticket sales for revenue sports.
2) reduction in total scholarships by the number of scholarship athletes that benefited from the sham classes divided by the years those sham classes were in effect.
3) any coaches or administrators who knew or orchestrated this fraud be banned for life from collegiate athletics.

Death penalty.

Give a one time waiver to other universities to take on extra scholarship athletes so current UNC athletes can transfer.

UNC must pay those scholarships.

In this scenario, I want every UNC athlete to transfer to Harvard or Yale so the monetary pain is maximized.

I want every UNC athlete to transfer to Harvard or Yale

I doubt UNC grads can spell Yale, much less Harvard.

.
"Step on a crack, break Miami's bak"

- ThatOneGuy

1) 2 years of exhibition only games throughout the respective seasons.

At first, I was just going to ask if this wasn't just a postseason ban. But then you kept going.

They can still play, but the games don't count for W-Ls. As a result, no revenue beyond ticket sales for revenue sports.

How exactly would this work? And how does it not punish a lot of other innocent parties?

--If the W/L doesn't count for UNC, what about for the other team? Do they automatically get a W regardless of the final score? If it's just a glorified forfeit, why even bother playing the game and risk injury? Do only 11 games count for them? I don't see the ACC letting any of those scenarios occur.

--If the games are just exhibition, then the value of those games to ESPN would drop dramatically, which would probably hurt the bottom line for the conference, and affect the payout to the other 13.5 teams in the ACC.

--If there's no revenue beyond just ticket sales, then do the folks who actually come to watch the game have to sit there with no refreshment? Although, honestly, I'm not sure how "games not counting" leads to a complete shut down of revenue outside of ticket sales.

Just to throw wild speculation into the pot, UNC's Assistant AD for Football Recruiting Operations has left for Oklahoma.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

She seems really qualified...

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Man I really debated making the same pun.

Sometimes I like to leave off the /s just to mess with people.

RUN AWAAAAAAY

To be fair, she is moving to her alma mater and near where she grew up. That being said, I'm sure she didn't mind taking a lateral move right about meow.

“I turned down 12 other opportunities. You know what I mean?” - Fuente

Meow is not the time for logic. Meow is time for wild speculation and innuendo

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

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:insert emma watson meow gif:

Nevermind: either my browser rendered the comment wrong, or the comment has been updated.

“I turned down 12 other opportunities. You know what I mean?” - Fuente