NHT: Urban Meyer IN hot water

Concerns an Ohio State WR Coach's domestic violence and Urban's turning a deaf ear towards it and recently lying about it at Media Day.

A pretty well-put together piece of journalism by Brett McMurphy (ESPN), IMO.

Will be interesting to see if Urban survives this. Have a read.

UPDATE ....

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Comments

yea remove the potentially from the title. This is real bad.

Edit: thank you for removing potentially.

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

I'd say it's still just 'potential' trouble for Urban Meyer. It's definitely trouble for the program, but for Urb to catch any sort of punishment, they'll probably need to demonstrate that he knew about this and looked the other way. I didn't see any evidence of that in McMurphy's write-up. Mrs. Meyer knew, and you'd have to assume that unless she's a real piece of crap, she said something to him about it to him. But we don't have that evidence yet.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

"Shelley said she was going to have to tell Urban," Courtney said. "I said: 'That's fine, you should tell Urban.' I know Shelley did everything she could."

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies


All the evidence I need for the court of public opinion. (Granted that court doesn't decide if Urb keeps his job)

"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

You'll notice there's no mention of Shelley actually telling Urb, just a claim that she would. The lack of any further comment tells me one of two things: Either that conversation between Shelley and Urban never happened, or it's being purposely ignored, presumably to protect the Meyers. I think we need to learn if that conversation happened and what happened afterword before we can say that UM is definitely in hot water.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

dude read the whole thing...

A few days after Zach's 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer's closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith's grandfather, de Fries is Meyer's "life coach."

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

Dude, I did. Friends of Urban knew. His wife knew. Seemingly everyone around him knew. But the lack of any statement or evidence that Urban knew is definitely conspicuous. That lack of any concrete evidence (so far) that Urban knew anything is likely to be his get-out-of-jail-free card. There's certainly enough circumstantial evidence to convict him the court of public opinion. Even I'm pretty sure he's guilty, despite my playing devil's advocate here. However, you need something more than that if you're going to fire such an influential figure without paying out his whole contract. All I'm saying is that we need to see some evidence of Urban's direct knowledge to claim that he, personally, is in hot water.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

Perception is reality. If the perception is that Urban knew about it, and did nothing, and the university keeps him on staff, that is a really, really bad look for the university, especially in this day and age.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

If I might throw my $0.02 into the ring here...

There is a difference between "reasonably culpable" and "legally guilty". It's incredibly difficult to call Urban Meyer "legally guilty" based on this, especially so because husband-wife conversations are legally privileged, so no attorney could force his wife to testify against him about all of this. However, that doesn't mean that he didn't know. Even if the university can't prove that he beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt knew about it, there is probably enough out there to ask the question about how he managed to avoid that knowledge when seemingly everyone else connected to the coaching staff knew. At the very least, he had to have known about the arrest?

Here's to hoping the university does what is right and what's best and doesn't ignore this based on the grounds of "Urban says he didn't know so clearly he must not have known"

Chem PhD '16

True, but when it comes to keeping a job, the university would not have to find that Meyer is "legally guilty" of anything. I'm sure there is wording in his contract that if he casts the university in a bad light, they can shit can him.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

We don't know the specifics of his contract, and employers/employees argue about "for cause" all the time in terms of terminations. There would likely be a settlement because litigating what Meyer did(n't) know in court would be a nightmare for both sides.

Chem PhD '16

Given what happened in Florida, that would be pretty negligent for an AD not to have a "for cause" clause in Meyer's contract. (Referring to the arrests and reported lack of discipline/control over the players.)

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Sure, but nobody commenting here knows what exactly that "for cause" clause entails/covers and whether or not this current case is a slam dunk in that regard.

Chem PhD '16

5.1 Termination by Ohio State for Cause - At all times, Coach serves at the pleasure of the Director. No further payment or benefits shall be made to Coach hereunder if the Director notifies Coach at any time that Ohio State is terminating this agreement for cause, which, in addition to any of its other normally understood meanings in
employment contracts shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

b. A significant or repetitive or intentional violation (or a pattern
of conduct which may constitute or lead to a major violation),
as determined by Ohio State, by Coach (or any other person
under Coach's supervision and direction, including, but not
limited to, student-athletes, which Coach knew about or
should have (in Ohio State's determination) reasonably
known about) of any laws, University Rules or Governing
Athletic Rules; or

o. Commission of or participation in by Coach of any act,
situation, or occurrence which, in Ohio State's judgment,
brings Coach and/or Ohio State into public disrepute,
embarrassment, contempt, scandal or ridicule or failure by
Coach to conform Coach's personal conduct to conventional
and contemporary standards of good citizenship, with such
conduct offending prevailing social mores and values and/or
reflecting unfavorably upon Ohio State's reputation and
overall primary mission and objectives, including but not
limited to, acts of dishonesty, misrepresentation, fraud or
violence that may or may not warrant criminal prosecution by
the relevant authorities.

I would argue that this falls within both b. and o.

Pages 16 and 17 of his contract
Urb's contract

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

That o clause sure gives a lot of leeway to the University. I'm kinda surprised that Urb's agent agreed to that. At this point I'm going to have to backtrack on my prior comments and say that he is almost certainly in extremely warm water right now. Unless someone can come out and firmly refute McMurphy's story, or all those people in Meyer's inner circle announce that they didn't tell him anything about this, I don't see any way OSU can keep him around without a massive PR nightmare that they won't want to be anywhere near.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

Cough cough

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

I'm not defending Urban Meyer in any way. But if Ohio St tries to claim part o. of "for cause", Meyer could take them to court and say that he didn't know and that they need to prove that he knew. Part b. is a lot more significant because of the "or reasonably (in Ohio State's determination) should have known about" language, but it's harder to build that case when no charges were pressed and I don't have the University Rules/Governing Athletic rules in front of me (and leg to you for pulling his contract details).

again, it's the difference between the court of public opinion and an actual legal matter of whether or not he'd be entitled to any of his remaining salary. My guess would be that the university would like this for this not to be a protracted and high-profile legal battle about what Urban did/didn't know and whether or not he should be held accountable for something he (allegedly) wasn't aware of.

Chem PhD '16

Ordinarily, I'd agree with this assessment, but the phrase "in Ohio State's judgement" seems to me like it eliminates the burden of proof. That's why I'm surprised that UM and his agent agreed to this stipulation in the contract.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

If I were a lawyer, I'd argue that "in Ohio State's judgment" applies to "brings Coach and/or Ohio State into public disrepute, embarrassment, contempt, scandal or ridicule" and not to the "commission of or participation in by the coach". But I'm not a lawyer and this is a tired exchange about a crappy situation that ought to see Meyer punished in some way by the University.

Chem PhD '16

I don't know if Urban knew for sure or not but your quote does not prove that Urban knew at all. All that proves is his friends asked Courtney to drop the charges.

Bleeding burnt orange and chicago maroon

His "friend" who (see below) is Urban's fixer by accounts of a former player. Something tells me there's more to uncover here.

Oh sure, I bet there probably is more to uncover, but there is no concrete evidence that Urban was told by his wife or friends by this article or below interview... According to the Courtney girl, Shelley did not come back to her and confirmed she told him or didn't tell him at all.

Bleeding burnt orange and chicago maroon

Fair enough. The way the original article/FB post reads McMurphy has more texts than what he has released.

Two weeks after the Oct. 25, 2015 incident, a Nov. 5, 2015 text exchange between Lindsey Voltolini and Courtney shows Meyer talked to Zach Smith about the incident.
Lindsey is the wife of Brian Voltolini, considered one of Meyer's most loyal staff members. Brian is Ohio State's football operations director and has been part of Meyer's staffs for 15 seasons at Bowling Green, Utah, Florida and Ohio State.

Courtney: "(Zach's) trying to make me look crazy bc that's what Shelley is saying (he's doing)"
Lindsey: "He (Urban) just said he (Zach) denied everything"
Courtney: "I hope urban is smarter than that"
Lindsey: "He (Urban) doesn't know what to think"
Courtney: "I don't really care. Ya know"
Lindsey: "Yeah, don't worry about urb"

Lindsey is potentially a witness but but Brian certainly is and can absolutely be deposed as a witness and based on that deposition be compelled to testify.

NHT = Non Hokie Thread

What's
Important
Now

I was going cross-eyed trying to figure it out.

Chem PhD '16

It was a catch!

If I made a funny comment I probably stole it from Reddit.

You know that Shelley (Urban's wife) is gonna take the fall for not telling him about what she said she was going to tell him about. Because Urban's too good of a football coach.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

That's the thing, in the article it shows that Shelley told Urban (implied) and that Urban had a meeting with the WR coach, and he denied it.

"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

I saw that later on, after I'd posted that, but to be fair, it says that Meyer had a meeting with the coach. It could've been Shelley.

via GIPHY

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

So what's Urban's culpability? Getting involved in other people's domestic issues is never clean for anyone. If he fires the guy over some photos that show alleged abuse (and assuming he doesn't know of the history of alleged abuse), he lands himself and his employer in a serious financial bind if the accused takes them to court.

I'm not defending Urban specifically... honestly don't have much of an opinion of the man one way or another.

I'm just suggesting, as in all things, we be a little less quick to judge until all the facts are known.

Urban's culpability is simple: failure to follow up. He's a football coach, not a detective, a family counselor, or HR person. The athletic department (and the legal department) has trained professionals to handle this sort of thing.

This looks a lot like the Paterno issue to me, on a much smaller scale. Your job as a head coach, (assuming he knew of the offense, which I think we all suspect, but can't quite prove) is to report these things to the proper authorities when you hear of them and take the appropriate action after the facts are known.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

his looks a lot like the Paterno issue to me

Same here. But the sad thing is that many people don't view domestic abuse with the same sort of seriousness as Sandusky's actions.

I guess I'm guilty but I feel the victim in this case has more responsibility in this case as she is an adult and Sandusky violated children in Penn State's facilities

Recruit Prosim

Domestic violence is serious don't get me wrong, but it does not compare to raping and molesting hundreds of kids.

She could have easily left him

This is an absolutely horrendous take on anything involving domestic violence.

First sentence I have no problem with but I would drop that second sentence. I don't think there is any "easily" involved martial relations let alone disintegrating ones or abuse.

And its completely beside the point. It happened (at least) once, and once is one too many times.

So what's Urban's culpability?

From a comment below (and the article):

Ohio State may be in violation of Title IX, which states: discrimination on the basis of sex, can include sexual harassment, rape, and sexual assault. A college or university that receives federal funding may be held legally responsible when it knows about and ignores sexual harassment or assault in its programs or activities.

To paraphrase Dr. Ian Malcom, "That is one big pile of culpability."

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

With UM more fun to judge without the facts

I really can't see any timeline where she doesn't tell him or really anyone. She is a nurse, professor, and friend of the woman. It just wouldn't make sense. The coach was a WR coach, not even a administrator or head coach.

Let's Go

HOKIES

FYI, McMurphy is no longer with ESPN

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

That's actually a point in his favor.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Bro, if you think beating your woman makes you a man, or makes you something special, I have no problem putting you in your fucking place. And if I can't do, there'll be an army behind me.

But this anOSU. Someone will take the fall and Urban will be fine. But also remember, Jim Tressel didn't get away with far less. So maybe there's a precedence for this.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

Bro, if you think beating your woman makes you a man, or makes you something special, I have no problem putting you in your fucking place. And if I can't do, there'll be an army behind me.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Tressel's transgressions had to do with player benefits which in the NCAA's eyes is worse than any physical crime

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

I know it's not a popular take, but them's the rules.

Sandusky/Penn State was a criminal and civil issue, not an NCAA issue.

The only reason the NCAA did what they did, loudly and proudly, was for PR purposes. They saw an opportunity to show they could be tough on a program, and it was a safe thing to punish Penn State while public opinion made it very costly (in all ways) for Penn State to defend themselves from the NCAA.

That this was a Public Relations stunt from the NCAA is buttressed by fact that when Penn State did finally push back legally, the NCAA quietly tucked their tails and didn't appeal when the judicial system found in Penn States favor against the NCAA penalties.

I abhor the state of things anymore, where there is an endless call for people's jobs over issues that often don't even have a criminal or civil case associated.

The NCAA's eagerness to sanction things outside of, or at best in an extremely gray area of, their regulations just highlights what a piss-poor job they do of policing those things that are very clearly within their statutes to do so.

UNC.
Miami.
Ole'Miss.
Etc. Etc. Etc ad finitum.

I disagree with this.

The whole reason for Paterno's cover up was to protect the football program. So the range of potential remedies must include possible NCAA sanctions of the football program. Otherwise, there is a moral hazard where the one thing Paterno cared about (Penn State football) would be protected.

It's not the NCAA's place to police how a school markets or portrays their program. In fact, the only thing they (attempt to) police is in game situations and player compensation (or lack thereof). I think Krak has the right interpretation - PSU was just a few people taking part in Obstruction of Justice and/or Criminal Negligence; there were no player issues in this case.

Sad thing is, I think Baylor was a situation where player's received 'improper benefits' (we'll call it 'legal support' from the university and local law enforcement) that non-athletes would not have received. Baylor was the NCAA's opportunity to assert themselves while doing the right thing, but NCAA botched the PSU case so badly, they were afraid to touch Baylor.

Twitter me

See, I disagree here. Penn St should have been hammered by the NCAA because they did all their sleazy covering up of the molestation of boys for the benefit of the reputation of the football team. That reputation got them recruits, got them press, got them money. It doesn't matter that it didn't directly impact on-field results, they had a tangible competitive advantage gained by keeping that all under wraps. They sold out the future of dozens of grade school boys to keep the shine on their football program, they deserved to see the whole thing burned to the ground. The NCAA took the coward's way out by caving and reversing their decisions after the fact, it only showed how incompetent and impotent they truly are.

The same mindset can be applied to UNC, in that they did all that to keep the talent level high for both the football and basketball programs. Don't give a shit that some normal students got access to the bullshit classes, they existed to artificially inflate the academic eligibility of players that otherwise would have been kicked out of school. The fact the NCAA punted on that case is appalling.

Likewise, Michigan St should burn for how they allowed hundreds of young women to get molested through their team doctors to allow their reputation to remain untarnished.

We're talking dozens of conference and national championships that were awarded to these programs over a period of time where this behavior kept their programs stable when they should have been swarming with controversy. Its BS to say this didn't have athletic implications when it was all done for the primary benefit of athletics.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

I agree with everything you said; I'm just saying that, as structured now, the NCAA doesn't have the means or jurisdiction to punish the schools for the actions you mentioned (without risking getting sued into oblivion). I'm sure everyone's thinking "who cares about getting sued, lives were ruined!" and on a moral level I 100% agree, but that's not the way things work in the world.

Twitter me

This may be going more off tangent but I completely disagree with this.

I understand these desires. But there are plenty of laws (civil and criminal) in place to handle what happened at PSU and Michigan State. And those laws were swiftly and heavily applied (or are being applied).

There is absolutely no need for the NCAA to have jurisdiction. Nor is there any need for any of those schools to be "burn[ed] to the ground." That has nothing to do with justice, the law, or NCAA jurisdiction. And expanding the NCAA's jurisdiction to satisfy the court of public opinion's desire for punishment will not yield good results.

Ironically enough though, I actually thought the NCAA had a much better argument for jurisdiction with the UNC academic scandal than PSU and Michigan State.

It's as simple as this. The Football Program doesn't exist, the crimes would have been reported right away.

The school itself doesn't deserve to have a program. It needed to go away to show that this shouldn't happen anywhere. It's a bad precedent that has been set. Letting rape go on for years under your watch for the better of the program doesn't happen without a program.

What's
Important
Now

And if these were professors in an academic department would you eliminate that entire department and not let the school have that department and teach those subjects?

I'm not remotely condoning what happened at PSU.

I just don't think the NCAA had any jurisdiction over it.

From a deterrence perspective, if the individual civil and criminal liability doesn't deter people from the acts that occurred at PSU, NCAA punishment certainly won't.

The whole reason Paterno overlooked child rape was because he didn't want his football program tarnished.

NCAA punishment was the one thing he feared, as his legacy was the thing most important to him.

1) We have no idea why Paterno did what he did. You're just making an assumption that suits your view.

2) NCAA punishment being only thing he feared (again complete assumption on your part) requires that being convicted of a crime and being sent to prison has no impact on his "legacy". And I don't buy that one bit. You're essentially saying Sandusky would have continued to have a great legacy until the NCAA issued punishment (as opposed to the criminal conviction and civil lawsuits etc).

We absolutely know that The QB coach told Paterno in the late 2000s about the abuse he witnessed and deferred to upper mangement, while Jerry was allowed to still roam free in the locker rooms of Penn State. How far back doesn't matter, but it was all done to save the Paterno image and the program.

What's
Important
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We have no idea why Paterno did what he did. You're just making an assumption that suits your view.

This is very true. Honestly, my belief is that is was willful negligence. He was made aware, but because JoePa could only concern himself with football, it went in one ear, out the other. That doesn't make it any more morally acceptable or put him any less at fault, and TBH doesn't really matter.

Twitter me

1) We have no idea why Paterno did what he did. You're just making an assumption that suits your view.

2) NCAA punishment being only thing he feared (again complete assumption on your part) requires that being convicted of a crime and being sent to prison has no impact on his "legacy".

1) Really? We have no idea why Paterno did what he did? Well, if you're honest we have a pretty good idea. Either he didn't want to damage Penn State football, or he didn't want to hurt Sandusky, or both. After the initial cover-up, he was also protecting himself.

2) I don't think Paterno believed he'd go to jail over the situation. He thought he'd made it go away already. Worst case, it may have been they said/he said. Paterno completely miscalculated the era of believing the victims we're currently in.

I'm not saying Paterno was choosing between prison or his legacy at Penn State football. Paterno and his legacy at Penn State are intertwined. His family is STILL fighting tooth and nail to get his reputation back on a daily basis. His son even commented on the current scandal at Ohio State. They'd like Paterno's status re-instituted, and they'd like his statue put back up. They STILL think he was innocent and railroaded.

You're making a vast range of assumptions about Paterno's behavior and motives that are irrelevant and not going anywhere productive.

You said "NCAA punishment was the one thing he feared, as his legacy was the thing most important to him."

I pointed out how that makes zero sense when there are serious criminal and civil liability implications already with that kind of conduct. I am not going to debate Paterno's or his family's behavior.

My point is if something carries significant criminal and civil liability and someone is still willing to risk it, NCAA punishment is highly unlikely to change that calculation/decision.

It appears to be your firm belief that the NCAA has the power to punish universities as it sees fit and you believe that punishment is necessary to deter behavior that is already illegal and a crime. I strongly disagree with that. I wonder how you will feel about NCAA jurisdiction and powers if VT is ever in its cross-hairs.

I suggested what I think Paterno's motivation was. I don't think it's at all irrational to assume that Paterno was protecting his legacy and the Penn State football program when he overlooked pedophilia. He probably also thought he'd taken enough action to stop it. I'm not saying that's the only possibility, but I am saying that I believe that it's the most likely explanation. You can argue that if you want, but do you really have a better explanation?

I doubt that he anticipated at that time that our entire social structure would evolve into the #metoo movement of today where people would believe victims over people in positions of authority. There is a lot of that going around these days.

The NCAA has the jurisdiction and authority to manage college athletics. They're charged with setting up rules to protect the overall structure. It's a weak authority, but they have issued the death penalty to a football program for something a lot less than covering up ongoing molestation of minors.

I'm not arguing the SEVERITY of the crime but the NATURE of it. My point is the NATURE of the crimes at PSU are not relevant to NCAA regulations or its jurisdiction.

From Wikipedia:

"SMU football had already been placed on three years' probation in 1985 for recruiting violations. At the time, it had been on probation seven times (including five times since 1974), more than any other school in Division I-A.

However, in 1986, SMU faced allegations by two whistleblowing players, Sean Stopperich and David Stanley, that players were still being paid. An investigation found that 21 players received approximately $61,000 in cash payments, with the assistance of athletic department staff members, from a slush fund provided by a booster. Payments ranged from $50 to $725 per month, and started only a month after SMU went on its original probation (though it later emerged that a slush fund had been maintained in one form or another since the mid-1970s). Also, SMU officials lied to NCAA officials about when the payments stopped. "

Of course, paying players and recruiting violations are "a lot less" than "molestation of minors." But that's not the point. Recruiting violations (which often aren't crimes), lying to NCAA (also unlikely to be a crime), and paying players are squarely things the NCAA oversees, has rules about, and should enforce (the quality of the enforcement is irrelevant to my issues here).

Is molesting children awful? Absolutely. Is it one of the worst crimes possible? In my opinion, yes. But I don't think the severity of the crime has anything to do with whether the NCAA should have jurisdiction and be issuing punishment.

Was it wrong to put Capone in prison over taxes? Was it wrong to put O.J. in prison over stealing back his own memorabilia?

I can see it being a judgment call.

Yes... those are all actual independent crimes....

They didn't make those crimes up as payback or punishment for the other crimes those people (allegedly) committed.

Perjury and obstruction of justice are crimes Paterno could potentially have been charged with.

But, you know, he died well before some of the facts came out.

I really don't understand where you are going with that. I'm not proclaiming Paterno's innocence. I have no issues with Paterno being charged with crimes, being sued, etc. That's exactly what the legal system and the courts are for - just not the NCAA in my opinion.

I was responding to your comment, where you said "there were actual independent crimes". There were in this case as well.

I'm saying that any authority with jurisdiction can use that authority to seek justice.

I'm also saying is that the ONE thing Paterno wanted was the success of his football program. You want to discourage that from EVER happening again, even that has to be on the table.

As weak as the NCAA already is, I don't know why anyone would try and limit them further. I do think that Penn State was correct to fire Paterno, and I don't think any sanctions that the NCAA originally imposed were inappropriate.

Why are y'all still talking about this?

Good question. I'm out.

Amen. This thread got so skinny, I couldn't find the upvote button for you!

I just don't think the NCAA had any jurisdiction over it.

Except that the schools ARE the NCAA. When the NCAA says that it doesn't have jurisdiction, what that really means is that the member institutions don't want to air that particular bit of dirty laundry.

"Those who jump into the void owe no explanation to those who stand and watch."
--unknown

There can be multiple jurisdictions over an entity. People can be under the jurisdiction of Federal laws, state laws, county ordinances, and NCAA rules all at the same time! Any and all of those can execute their various roles.

In this case, the NCAA governs college sports, including football. If the leadership of a program reaches God status at a university, to the degree that the head coach knows about pedophilia, but the local police overlook it in deference to the football coach, the NCAA does have the power to do with that program as it sees fit, up to and including eliminating the program.

(deleted - stupid phone.)

(deleted - stupid phone user maybe)

NCAA does have the power to do with that program as it sees fit, up to and including eliminating the program.

I'm honestly not aware of the statutory power the NCAA has to achieve this. Can you back this up with the relevant citations?

If they had this power, why did they not defend it with an appeal when PSU had the courts find in their favor against the NCAA?

By not doing so, there now stands a powerful legal precedent against them ever successfully exercising
that power again.

A judge threw out the Penn State lawsuit vs the NCAA: click here to see Penn State lawsuit thrown out

Paterno's family sued the NCAA, but later quietly dropped their lawsuit when the NCAA reinstated their victories under Paterno.

There was a lot of behind-the-scenes lobbying of the NCAA by important people in Pennsylvania. If there is any precedent, it's for back-room lobbying.

My bad. I could have sworn they had taken that to court. I'll blame it on the Mandela effect instead of my bourbon-addled brain.

I think that the NCAA probably wasn't too keen on taking their case to court then.

Still wondering if you could post the relevant statutes allowing the NCAA to claim this power?

They did take it to court, but then settled it.

As far as authority: something, something, institutional control.

the NCAA governs college sports, including football.

This is a grave misconception. The NCAA is designed to work for the schools, conferences, and students (try not to laugh at that last one). Their job is NOT to govern them. Here's a good read about how the NCAA works from a practical standpoint. A key of piece of info that helps to convey my point that the NCAA is not designed as a governing body:

The NCAA equivalent to a lawmaking body includes 20 athletic directors, Six senior woman administrators from schools, Six conference commissioner types (who represent schools), Four faculty athletics representatives from schools, Two athletes

So that's 30 people representing member schools, 6 people representing a conference, and two people representing the students. There's an obvious conflict of interest here. As the writer puts it:

Like Roger Goodell in the NFL, part of Emmert's job is to protect members from blame like a lightning rod. He can propose ideas, but he can't set policy

Let's say you don't care, and you think the NCAA should just hand down whatever punishment they see fit - look at what happened when they botched the UNLV case - Jerry Tarkanian was fired and sued the NCAA. The NCAA pays out close to $1B to their member institutions (which are represented on their legislative board). Why would any board member support legislation or punishment that could allow the entity that pays them to be sued?

Finally, let's consider a hypothetical scenario where the Big 10 leaves the NCAA. The conference and/or schools already have all the equipment, means to broadcast, viewership, etc. The only thing keeping them in the NCAA is that there is power in numbers. It's time to face reality:

The NCAA is not a governing body, it is a cartel.

Twitter me

This is a quote from your comment:

The NCAA equivalent to a lawmaking body

How is that not a "governing body"?

I would note that being a governing body doesn't rule out the concept of it also being a cartel, though.

We can call it a governing body if you'd like, but at the end of the day, the members and creators of the NCAA created the NCAA to serve their interest, not to police them. As a result, any part of the the NCAA focused on rule making and/or enforcement is required to overcome a variety of conflicting interests, political hurdles, and legal risks if they want to enforce their rules. It is by design difficult and impractical for the NCAA to punish member schools, and significantly easier for the NCAA to serve as cartel, and provide member schools a means to maximize desirable outcomes.

EDIT: Big time rephrasing.

EDIT #2: I don't want to get caught up in the terminology; returning to your original comment:

In this case, the NCAA governs college sports, including football. If the leadership of a program reaches God status at a university, to the degree that the head coach knows about pedophilia, but the local police overlook it in deference to the football coach, the NCAA does have the power to do with that program as it sees fit, up to and including eliminating the program.

My point is, the NCAA doesn't 'see it fit' to punish schools like PSU, UNC, etc because it would be a disservice to their member institutions.

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What you appear to be saying is that the NCAA is there to govern college athletics, but is ineffective at it.

That I'd agree with.

It's not just that the NCAA is ineffective, it's that they were designed to be this way, because no one they serve would benefit from it.

Sorry to keep beating this horse, but I want to get the point across that the NCAA's motives are not altruistic, and even if leadership did have altruistic motives, there would still be enormous hurdles to overcome before the entity could be remotely effective (if that's even possible).

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I get your negativity towards the NCAA, I really do, but I'm not claiming they're altruistic.

My point is that they are a governing body, and they do have jurisdiction, and that in the case of Penn State, they did have the authority to sanction Penn State, both formal and informal.

You can effectively argue that the NCAA is ineffective, or that they are a lot better with informal power, and I'd agree with that.

Nobody wants to kill the golden goose. But at the same time, the NCAA also realizes that if college sports lose the battle of public perception, the golden goose will be dead.

Which is one reason Urban Meyer is in some serious hot water here. The NCAA won't come into play in this particular situation, because Ohio State will have to handle it.

My point is that they are a governing body, and they do have jurisdiction, and that in the case of Penn State, they did have the authority to sanction Penn State, both formal and informal.

Not according to the law. PSU argued otherwise in court, and the court agreed with them.

Can you share the relevant NCAA statute that allows them to punish PSU in the Sandusky case?

Lack of institutional control is a pretty broad stroke that could capture it.

"with all due respect, and remember I’m sayin’ it with all due respect, that idea ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin’ it on" - Ricky Bobby

No, what Penn State argued was that their $60 million in settlement money should be spent in Pennsylvania, not that the NCAA didn't have authority over Penn State football.

The NCAA settled the case. Penn State still paid the fine, but the NCAA let them spend the money in Pennsylvania.

I agree.

They let Penn State walk all over them. I thought it was wrong at the time, and I still think that.

Then again, they also let North Carolina walk all over them.

All-in-all, they're pretty weak sauce, where you pick your own punishment unless you try to sell autographs. They're pretty inflexible about that.

Yes and no. NCAA would only be doing a disservice to the member institutions they punish, but would be doing a service to all other member institutions by enforcing fair play and rules compliance. HOWEVER, a situation like this doesn't fit that bill unless we all REALLY feel like a WR coach who shouldn't have been coaching created a significant advantage.

You could argue the states created the Federal government to serve them and not police them, but there has been an obvious shift in power since then.

Recruit Prosim

Tressel's transgressions had to do with player benefits which in the NCAA's eyes is worse than any physical crime

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The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Somebody get him a dozen Papa John's & a lg bottle-o Pepto.

#FUENTEenFUEGO
Waho's suck
Uva swallows

At a minimum will be very bad PR for Meyer.

Not sure why McMurphy brings up Title IX. Don't think it would apply unless ex-wife was a student or employee of OSU.

Ohio State may be in violation of Title IX, which states: discrimination on the basis of sex, can include sexual harassment, rape, and sexual assault. A college or university that receives federal funding may be held legally responsible when it knows about and ignores sexual harassment or assault in its programs or activities.

The last sentence. The coaches were employees and Urban's wife is an employee at the college. If they ignored the employee committing the crime, then they are responsible.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

My understanding is the crime has to be toward a student or employee. Not just committed by a student or employee.

My interpretation has been if it was committed by an employee or student and they hid or ignored it for the benefit of the employee/student or department.

If anyone who is associated by tuition or pay check goes out and commits assaults and the school hides it, then they are liable because they have to report it as a government institution.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

That's not how that works.

""No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

His ex-wife is unlikely to fall under that. She is not a part of the program or activity.

"No person in the United States

be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

If they(employees and departments) hid knowledge of domestic abuse, they discriminated against her. They are an education program that receives financial assistance. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to be a participant of that educational program for it to be valid, just that the program cannot discriminate against any person in the United States.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

That would wildly expand Title IX. It is meant to protect access to and opportunity for education.

His ex-wife is not a student or employee or a participant in any program or activity of OSU. OSU does not owe her any legal duty under Title IX.

I am not saying that what Urban Meyer (most likely) did is right. But just because we disagree with what someone did, does not mean we should shoehorn it into liability under Title IX just to get the desired result (punishment of something we think is wrong).

Title IX is a clusterfuck, and I think people like to refer to it when they want to pile on or try to lend some legal authority to their outrage, whether it's grounded or not.

Ultimately, I think you have to look at it through the societal/cultural lenses of the Penn State and Ray Rice fiascoes. Ray Rice tells us that DV is a serious fucking thing societally and will be taken seriously. Sandusky, and relevantly to this situation, Paterno, tell us that when you cover up something that society takes seriously, you're gonna get fucked.

I think Urban's gonna get fucked.

*I make no comment about the rightness or wrongness of any of these things, that's just how I see it playing out.

Old sigline: I've been cutting back on the drinking.

New Sigline: lol it's football season.

It is a pretty vaguely written law. It is open to many interpretations but it clearly says no person in the united states can be discriminated against, based on sex, by a government funded institution. It does not say the discriminated against person must be associated with that institution anywhere which opens up the interpretations. The school withholding information of domestic abuse committed by its employee is discrimination against her in the eyes of many. Your original comment was why did he throw Title IX into his article. That is why. Your interpretation that it has to be a student is one of many interpretations. The courts will have their interpretations based on previous precedents.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

What?

So if a football player rapes a non student and it's ignored by the staff at let's say a Christian school in Waco Texas, then it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of Title IX?

Even if that were the rule it'd be retarded. People don't stop being people if they aren't employed by a certain institution or citizens of a certain country.

Im sick of this rule-smithing bullshit. If the offense fits the damn description of the rule then you get punished for it.

I'm just gonna respond to you and NickVT10 in one post.

It is not rule-smithing. Title IX is meant to protect against discrimination based on gender in education and their programs and activities. It is not meant to cover every action someone in education may commit. It is meant to protect those participating in education and their programs and activities.

What allegedly happened to the coach's ex-wife is certainly horrible and a crime. But she was not discriminated against in her education or related program or activity and therefore should not be covered by Title IX.

These laws are not meant to be expanded by popular opinion or a desire to reach a certain result.

So if a football player rapes a non student and it's ignored by the staff at let's say a Christian school in Waco Texas, then it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of Title IX?

Something can be illegal, but not a Title IX issue. I'm no lawyer, but I think to be a Title IX issue, you are by definition passing on blame/fault to the employer or over arching entity (which was obviously the case at Baylor).

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Deleted, wrong place.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

On a side note: Kudos to CJF for doing his best to keep the behavior of his staff on a moral high ground. As much as we hate that VT was in the press for a coach cheating on his wife, CJF got out ahead of it quick and moved on. I've never trusted Urb, and this only adds fuel to the fire for me that he is a snake oil salesman.

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"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

They're both shitty but cheating on your wife is not as bad as physically harming her

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Yeah not speaking to the offenders, as much as I'm speaking to the respective coach reactions to the event. Infidelity and abuse is certainly not a comparison I'm trying to make.

"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

Get ready for Ohio State Interim Head Coach Greg Schiano.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

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The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

In the perfect timeline Ohio State led by Greg Schiano stomps Tennessee into the dirt in a December 27th bowl game after both teams go 6-6.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

I smell a second stress induced retirement coming for 'ol Urb

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I saw him speak at a corporate event during his year between UF and OSU. He's very well spoken, but the cockiness just oozes out of him. The only way he leaves OSU is if he's forced...or if they're gonna have a bad year.

He's the Pep Guardiola of college football

Recruit Prosim

Work blocks facebook so I just googled an article...then saw a tweet referencing facebook so I found it there on my phone...

If you're in a similar situation take the time to read the original source on that FB post (contains pictures) its worse than the article made it sound.

Yep. There's a lot to the FB article, and most all the articles summarizing it are not doing it justice. Very well researched and written.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

McMurphy is a really good reporter

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

Which is why ESPN let him go, because they don't want good reporters. Good reporters generally tend not to parrot the company line.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

ESPN let McMurphy go because his skill is breaking news, which is a skill that, in today's world, doesn't justify his salary. News travels so fast, it no longer matters who breaks it. There's no 'race to the papers' like there was 15 years ago; once McMurphy tweets something, everyone knows, and every media outlet can offer their own take. This wasn't a case of ESPN only wanting people who parrot the company line.

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Fair point.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Penn St
Michigan St
Ohio St

Looks like the BigTen has perfected the art of covering up domestic/sexual abuse for the benefit of the athletic programs. The next step for Ohio St is now to sue the victims, if they're following precedent.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

THIS^^^ is disappointingly true.

#FUENTEenFUEGO
Waho's suck
Uva swallows

Actually just the Big Ten East...the West is squeaky clean, I'm sure

I'm gonna go ahead & put a big /S next to this one.

#FUENTEenFUEGO
Waho's suck
Uva swallows

the west aint to shabby, I have some connections to wisconsins inner sanctum and really the worst thing ive ever heard about is the fact that bo ryan had an affair and used recruiting money for it (athletic department wasn't aware and thats part of the reason he was ousted) and coach bert got drunk A LOT (even for wisconsin standards) and would hit on everyone

Taylor, looking desperately throws it deep..HAS A MAN OPEN DANNY COALE WITH A CATCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FIVE!!!!....hes still open

You put those words together, those are my favorite words, Popeyes and bahama
- Mike Burnup

I remember living in Ohio when anOSU fans HATED Urban and then when he got hired they suddenly loved him. Urban has a history of actions like this.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

And for those wondering, don't worry, there is plenty of circling the wagons, victim blaming, and whataboutism on display in the ElevenWarriors comments section regarding this development.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

Whoa. They are handling this well lol. I doubt they were so forgiving towards the PSU or MSU scandals.

I briefly thought about going over there to see what the reaction was like, but quickly decided that it wouldn't be worth it. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

Saw one guy joke that this is all being done by harbaugh to finally win The Game. Delusion at its finest

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

That comment section is horrific

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Indeed ... the very first comment is:

IF Urban knew about domestic abuse, and did nothing, he absolutely deserves to be fired.

Currently voted down to -6 ?!?!

Live look at Urban Meyer after seeing his name pop up in this story all over sports sites:

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Given what's going on with Papa John lately, this gif just keeps adding layers

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

You think this'll drive Hairballs to finally eat chicken?

#FUENTEenFUEGO
Waho's suck
Uva swallows

The chicken had nothing to do with it.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

So I am going to block quote a reddit post from a dude.

I dont know if any one will see this, but Ive caught flak here and been downvoted before for calling out Urban and his bag man & fixer that handled shady shit for him. Ive even said the guys name in here and on discord, and low and behold the guy appears in this story...

>A few days after Zach's 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer's closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle >Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith's grandfather, de Fries is Meyer's "life coach."

That guy is still with Urban, and he is the guy that covered up shady shit for urban in the past.

edit:

>On a July morning in 2009, Courtney Smith sat across the table from de Fries, a former attorney and Shell Oil >executive. Courtney said de Fries pressured her to drop the charges.

That aint the first time he has been involved in things like this. The real story is there for any journalist willing to dig into that guy.

edit2: https://www.facebook.com/TheBrettMcMurphy/posts/2042037522486968

>"Zach once told me," said Courtney, "if he ever got fired and this all comes out: 'I'll take everyone at Ohio State >down with me.' "

this guy knows dirt. I expect Mueller to be speaking with him soon.

IF TRUE the castle could crumble real quick.

EDIT: Just to add his name, user is /u/southernjeb.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

I mean, I'll honestly be shocked if Dabo Swinney, James Franklin, and Nick Saban don't also have hired guns like this that take care of the dirty work behind the scenes to keep the head guys clean.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

I would be too.

What this means then, is that a life coach (employee) and mentor of Urban ACTIVELY DISCOURAGED AN ABUSE VICTIM. These are people intricately linked to Ohio State suppressing this. The university cannot have that stain on its hands.

You can't tell me these two knew about what was happening and Urban didn't. There is no reality that it could happen.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

With a life coach like that, it's logical to conclude he's terrible at life

What this means then, is that a life coach (employee) and mentor of Urban ACTIVELY DISCOURAGED AN ABUSE VICTIM.

This can't be overstated. In the state in which I practice, De Fries and Bruce could definitely be charged with a crime. Urban could potentially be prosecuted as well, depending on how far De Fries and Bruce were willing to go to keep themselves out of trouble.

I think Urban's fucked.

Old sigline: I've been cutting back on the drinking.

New Sigline: lol it's football season.

I was working on transcribing this from my phone to my computer...thank you.

Edit also to add to the OP this guy is a Verified Player and played under Urban at UF.

Yepp. 100%. Good looking out bruv.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

Saw this on the Elven Warriors thread these guys are way out there in the looney bin right now.

Urb's Achilles Heel is his (blind) loyality...probably only reason Saban will go down as the better coach.

Directions from Blacksburg to whoville, go north till you smell it then go east until you step in it

And the fact that Saban actually IS the better coach

Two thoughts:

1) Journalism matters. (So great that ESPN let McMurphy go so they could clear salary to hire more guys to yell at each other and contradict themselves every 5 minutes! /s)

2) Urban Meyer has always been a scumbug. He puts winning football games above all else. He will take on any criminal and hide any crime as long as it gets him above 10 wins

2) Urban Meyer has always been a scumbug. He puts winning football games above all else.

So how long until he has another 'heart condition' that causes him to have to leave Ohio St abruptly?

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Step 1: Urban has a heart condition and steps down to "spend more time with the family"

Step 2: Become a studio analyst with ESPN for a year

Step 3: Be introduced as Michigan's new Head Coach

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior" Stephen M.R. Covey

“When life knocks you down plan to land on your back, because if you can look up, you can get up, if you fall flat on your face it can kill your spirit” David Wilson

Michigan is too close to his current place. Needs to move across the country.

I'd expect the next one to be USC

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

But they'd be able to eat chicken at Missagain.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

But it's too perfect. tOSU fans go from loving him to pure hate and Michigan fans do the opposite. It would be amazing to watch.

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior" Stephen M.R. Covey

“When life knocks you down plan to land on your back, because if you can look up, you can get up, if you fall flat on your face it can kill your spirit” David Wilson

He'll take a year off and then replace Kelly at Notre Dame.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Step 3: Be introduced as Michigan's new Head Coach

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The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

What WR coach is worth jeopardizing your entire career to cover for anyway?

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

Bigger than that. Urban's mentor is this WR Coach's Uncle. It's about trying to pay someone back. The comment earlier about blind loyalty to his people may be true. He held on too long to someone he saw as basically family.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

The one that signs 5 star players like Pete Rose signs autographs.

All 2 of them?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

It was a half hearted message board comment.... not a peer reviewed scientific study

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

Did you know this gif is of homocidal dictator Idi Amin of Uganda laughing about the Holocaust?

I appreciate all the support, and I appreciate all the hate I am getting. I will continue to work as hard as I can to be the best I can be and bring this team a championship. Go Hokies 🐔 - Josh Jackson

No.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

Not sure why you were downvoted for that, it was literally Idi Amin's reaction to the question "Is it true you said Hitler didn't kill enough Jews during the war"

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

I didn't downvote him. It did come out of left field. A little uncomfortable but I'm leaving it so others can see it.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

Holy fuck. I always just assumed this was a clip from some old ass 80s sitcom.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

This FB thread is GOING OFF!

Pain is Temporary, Chicks Dig Scars
Glory is Forever, Let's Go Hokies!!

Brett McMurphy dropping bombs like that on Facebook, of all places, is my new favorite internet thing.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

Meh, Meyer will lie and say he and his wife never spoke about it and he didn't know. His wife will lose her job/career at OSU, but Urban won't and that's most important of course. Their scumbag AD will hold a presser and say he is confident Urban didn't speak to his wife about this, and then everyone will yell beat Michigan.. Done.

Pushing your wife into the path of a media freight train would not be a good look for the self proclaimed protector of womenz.

One thing I don't get about these power guys... why did Urban say he knew nothing about the 2015 thing? He obviously did. Wouldn't it have been a better look last week to just get out in front of it with the truth?

I don't understand the "lie/deny first" mentality in this day and age where there is ALWAYS a text, tweet, snap, post, pic, vid, voicemail, or email message that leads us towards the truth anyway.

Leonard. Duh.

5, wait, 6, wait, 7 years ago I would agree. However. We're in a different place after some high profile incidents and I think urbs is fucked.

Old sigline: I've been cutting back on the drinking.

New Sigline: lol it's football season.

Maybe if OSU wasn't already dealing with another scandal. Between this and Jim Jordan, the AD may find himself on the hot seat as well.

Just catching up on this story. Fuck Urban Meyer. Puts this facade of being a devout Christian and time and time again just proves he's a shitty human being. He knew about this since 2009 when he was at Florida!?!?! And he rehired this scumbag coach at OSU!?!? Tressel got fired for players getting free tattoos for fucks sake, Meyer should've been gone yesterday.

But Meyer has a better record against Michigan.../s

Sadly, I think that might be in some of the anOSU fans and staff's minds.

The Christian facade will carry you a long, long way in our culture. Examples are plentiful and it is infuriating.

I would love for this particular subthread to end here.

Co-sign.

Headed in a bad direction.

Found this gold on Twitter

Good to know it was the Ohio State job that saved his life

Facebook comment is missing this:

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

.

.

#extendbronco

I think it's a "sarcastica" punctuation that someone invented. Mostly just basing that on context clues, though.

Yep, pretty much. Some thought up the bright idea of a sarcasm mark, and has since tried to monetize it. It's pretty much a joke, now.

SarcMark (tm) - free for a limited time

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

I thought this was satirical. I didn't know he was being serious until I saw him arguing with people in his mentions.

Wait... You're telling me that wasn't satire? Holy crap on a cracker, Batman!

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

He's a renaissance troll. He skis and thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Ignore and move on. He lives a miserable life.

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

This guy knows the "heart attack" was that Urban had to leave town for hooking up repeatedly with a booster's daughter, right?

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

GIF's not showing up for me, what was it?

GIF says "Oh Really, tell me more" as in give us the deets!

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

Per a confirmed former player of his at Florida:

Urban's 'heart issue' was he got caught hooking up with a boosters daughter that worked for UAA. The following year was the coaching exodus of his support staff.

This guy had also previously named Hiram de Fries as Meyer's fixer long before this issue.

LINK

Screenshot of animated gif

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

If Urban is out maybe they will hire Butch Jones.

Since you agree I ain't gonna let you drive this car to dinner and I agree you ain't gonna let me drive this car to dinner, there's only one way to settle this.

F-kin hate that guy!

#FUENTEenFUEGO
Waho's suck
Uva swallows

Do you happen to know anyone in the program? I sure could use someone to put in a good word for me. I'm really getting tired of washing Nick's car.

Like OSU doesn't have cars to wash, and Ohio has cold winters...

Hi!

Did you know I used to be a cop?

Since you agree I ain't gonna let you drive this car to dinner and I agree you ain't gonna let me drive this car to dinner, there's only one way to settle this.

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

This is the best reply I have seen to that tweet

Urban just got put on paid administrative leave.

What's
Important
Now

Huh. So when Dabo was telling recruits that Meyer wouldn't be at ohio state much longer, he wasn't just being a sleezy, lying, whatever-it-takes to get a recruit, snake oil salesman I always pegged him for...he was actually telling the truth. I almost feel like I owe Dabo an apology.

He probably WAS lying, and just tripped over the truth.

No apology necessary.

Good to know someone else is having a worse offseason.

It's about time. Now do they have any DTs committed?

Schools are not messing around with this anymore, and in Ohio State's particular case they have another potential issue going on with the wrestling allegations. If he lied about his knowledge that could be it.

Wow. I'm just curious if that was up prior to the allegations, our did they pull it together that fast. If the latter, (a) impressive and (b) OSU licensing is going to pull that shit and FAST! They wouldn't even let TSL do "The 1 in 15-1" shirts.

I doubt any of those get shipped. Ever.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

The shirt had stopped selling well before this news broke. Borrowing from the OSU fan who posted this link on Reddit- "This shirt didn't age well"

Au contraire, those shirts are priceless now.

I can see them getting new life among Michigan fans.

Seems the shirt is no longer available for sale, as when I open the link it appears to show me the front page.

What shirt was it?

URBAN
MEYER
KNOWS
[OSU logo]

I guess it was a riff on Bo Knows.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

NHT: URBAN MEYER POTENTIALLY IN HOT WATER

We put the K in Kwality

Maybe we can pickup an OSU DT off waivers

/sort of

Tyrod did it Mikey, Tyrod did it!!

So... about those recruits..


Later Meyer. Be sure to stock up on the Peptobismal in bulk.

#FUENTEenFUEGO
Waho's suck
Uva swallows

There are wolves and there are sheep, I am the sheep dog

In the case of #metoo, that's not really true.

These days, public perception goes a LONG ways in getting people to resign and settle lawsuits without going through the legal process.

Nobody wants to be "that guy" that gets his domestic assault (or tolerance thereof) deeds detailed on the front page.

It's the scarlet letter of our times.

Ok, so how much longer until the firing and subsequent flight tracker freakout when one flight is seen from Columbus to Roanoke?

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

So we have a guy who, while at Florida, had a player running a gang and murdering people and an assistant coach beating up his wife on a regular basis... Tell me again why he is employed?

Is it football season yet?

Well, since you asked.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

You ended it too soon...

Accomplishments and honors
Championships
3 National (2006, 2008, 2014)
2 MWC (2003, 2004)
2 SEC (2006, 2008)
3 SEC Eastern Division (2006, 2008, 2009)
2 Big Ten (2014, 2017)
2 Big Ten Leaders Division (2012, 2013)
4 Big Ten East Division (2014–2017)

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Pretty crazy that he was never an Offensive Coordinator, despite being thought of as an offensive genius by most.

Twitter me

And he played DB in college.

B/c he wins football games and national championships.....

I was listening to ESPN on the radio this morning on the way to work, and specifically the simulcast of Get Up! on Sirius XM, because they happened to be talking about the Urban Meyer situation. And I swear, they had a couple people on there who spent 20 minutes going on about all the ways in which Ohio State can argue to keep Urban Meyer on staff after this is all said and done. Went about questioning the validity of Courtney Smith's statements, questioned the trustworthiness of Shelley Meyer, said that they could weasel their way out of it because it all happened in 2015 and the new contract was signed this year. It sounded like the mental gymnastics of your average Ohio St internet forum and it was pathetic. I ended up having to turn it off, because it just ended up feeling way, way too sleazy.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

It is sleazy, but there's a lot of money involved here, as well as careers.

Don't even put yourself in Urban Meyer's shoes. If he doesn't work another day, he's going to be ok. Put yourself in the shoes of the 32 yr old coaching assistant who's making 100k per year and is trying to break into the workforce. If Meyer goes down, that guy loses his job and is really going to struggle to find another comparable one. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't stretch the truth about this or that, or ask my wife to do so as well. Not saying for sure what I'd do, but all options would probably be on the table today.

It would be really easy to rationalize, "Fuck Zach Smith. I'm not losing my livelihood because some guy and his wife couldn't get along."

Leonard. Duh.

...im sure this will go over well...

Put yourself in the shoes of the 32 yr old coaching assistant who's making 100k per year and is trying to break into the workforce.

Wait are you saying have sympathy for the sleazeball who, not only wasn't even good at his job but also beat his wife because now he can't find another job??????????????

WTF?

Very well could have misread what you were trying to convey here.

I would hope he means other coaches on the staff, not the actual guy. However, it doesn't matter since apparently all of the coaches wives knew. So not one coach stood up unless all of those wives didn't tell their husbands (highly unlikely).

Oh okay that makes way more sense. I'm hoping that's what he was going for.

I was replying to Alum07's comment about the ESPN radio show discussing the ways that OSU and Meyer get out of this mess.

In today's world, Urban really screwed up last week by completely denying this. In spite of that, OSU is still going to try and circle the wagons here, and my point was that these coaches who are still climbing that ladder might be inclined to be complicit in said wagon circling. I'm not condoning any of this behavior by anyone. Urban Meyer should have cut ties with this guy back in 2009, and he definitely should have been more forthcoming at Media Days... that was his biggest mistake.

The truth, while it hurts, shall always set you free.

Leonard. Duh.

It would be really easy to rationalize, "Fuck Zach Smith. I'm not losing my livelihood because some guy and his wife couldn't get along."

That's the thing though, they didn't follow through with this rationale and report as soon as they knew. They wouldn't have been fired. It's obviously much less severe, but look at our own staff. They found out about the affair, dealt with it, and moved on. No one but him lost his job. The reason they are in this mess is because they tried to protect a colleague who beat his wife. So fuck all of them.

The reason they are in this mess is because they tried to protect a colleague who beat his wife.

via GIPHY

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

You guys aren't getting me. It's all good.

Leonard. Duh.

Sure didn't take long for the Paternos to try and draw some parallels out of this...

Paterno's son defends Meyer

The Paternos still think they were unfairly accused.

The Paternos still think they were unfairly accused.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

If they fire urban, what are the chances they call Fuente?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

A few things:

1) Fuente doesn't seem like he wants to leave.

2) I don't think Ohio State would want Fuente, who has done well but hasn't achieved at the highest level yet.

3) I almost think it's more likely to wait for a bit and see if they could get a splash hire.

4) I hope it's Lane Kiffin AKA The Real Joey Freshwater.

Outspoken team cake advocate. Hates terrapins. Resident Macho Man Gif Poster. Distant cousin to Dork Magic. Frequently misspells words.

Lane Kiffin just texted me that "OSU is my DREAM job!".

I texted back "Ohio or Oklahoma?".

He replied "Which one is hiring?"

Now if it was led by an "an"........

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Tomorrow's headline:

In a surprise development, Lane Kiffin has been named the new head coach at OSU. In an impromptu interview on the tarmac, he was quoted as saying "Where am I and what the $%&@ is a Corvallis?".

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

The thought crossed my mind. Maybe DABO goes there.

What's
Important
Now

Now that I could absolutely see.

Seems more likely, in my opinion. While Fuente seems like a great coach, don't know that he's established himself enough yet.

And I do agree that he seems to love VT

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

It makes sense. It's a higher profile job. Dabo has won with less at Clemson and beat them straight up.

The only thing that wouldn't jive to well is, that Dabo is a Southern boy at heart. Ohio might be a little to north for his blood.

What's
Important
Now

I thought the rumor was that Dabo was holding out to replace Saban at Bama.

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior" Stephen M.R. Covey

“When life knocks you down plan to land on your back, because if you can look up, you can get up, if you fall flat on your face it can kill your spirit” David Wilson

This is the rumor, but OSU is upper echelon. I don't think you turn it down, if you are asked to go there. Clemson is great, and all but its not a true blue blood school.

Of course he could just stay at Clemson and pave his own way, but that's not how most college coaches think.

What's
Important
Now

The only way Dabo leaves Clemson voluntarily is to take over at Bama after Saban retires. Bama is his alma mater and he is the quintessential "Southern Boy". To me, anOSU wouldn't be a good fit and would be a lateral move at best. At Clemson he is the man, at anOSU he would be just another coach in a long line of great coaches.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

I think tOSU would make a call to Chris Petersen.

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behavior" Stephen M.R. Covey

“When life knocks you down plan to land on your back, because if you can look up, you can get up, if you fall flat on your face it can kill your spirit” David Wilson

I think their first call would be to Bob Stoops, an Ohio native who happens to be free at the moment.

Take the shortest route to the ball and arrive in bad humor.

Big Game Bob isn't coming back, unfortunately.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

You never know what happens when someone dangles buckets of cash in front of a guy. Especially with a loaded cupboard like anOSU has.

Take the shortest route to the ball and arrive in bad humor.

Given his stated reason, I doubt he comes back to coaching. IIRC, it was something like his father and grandfather died in their fifties or early sixties, and now that he's in his fifties, he wants some family time.

In that situation, money would not motivate me to coach again, especially since he already has a boatload.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

quoting Wacka Flacka Flame at the MLS All Star Game last night: "if i could choose family over business, any time, i'd choose family every time" - or something like that

Stoops made a decision for his family, and he should be commended for it. He doesn't want to get back into coaching big time football, and he doesn't miss it. There've been interviews, and you can google them at your leisure. He is also sporting a beard now.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

You're right, no coach would ever sign with Ohio St after resigning from their previous position citing family and medical concerns less than 20 months earlier.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

From what I've heard, Stoops' "health issues" are actually real health issues.

I don't see that happening. I'm pretty sure Dabo is happy to stay put until Little Nicky retires.

“You got one guy going boom, one guy going whack, and one guy not getting in the endzone.”
― John Madden (describing VT's offense?)

That shirt just became a collectors item.

Can someone advise on resizing an image on TKP posts? Asking for a friend.

Edit the HTML to include:

width=400

at the end. Check out how I edited your post. For most comment boxes, a width of 300-400 pixels is a pretty convenient size.

TY

I wonder how long before they stop selling these? I bet they get taken down today because I'm sure people are starting to but them like crazy. I lived in Atlanta years ago when the NFL fan shop had to ban the word Mexico from the customization jerseys because people were ordering them like crazy.

is project veritas a legit source?

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

Well they have guys who played for Urban Meyer talking about what they witnessed, how would they not be legit?

FIRST DOWN, HOKIES!

i don't know. I just know that project veritas previous works have been suspect

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

They are definitely not a legit source.

Probably because they're selectively edited to make them appear to say something they're not. You can completely disregard anything produced by Project Veritas.

You mean like the nightly news, or any other journalistic endeavor who have transformed their entire industry by selectively editing material and using endless "anonymous sources" to get the most inflammatory and click-baity ledes they can, with the only difference being that PV then releases the entirety of their footage to counter claims of taking things out of context?

Yeah, then they are totes easy to dismiss.

Don't disregard evidence just because it's provided by someone you don't like.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

don't you think it's kinda odd that no one else has picked up this video?

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

Yes.

I find it kinda odd that people would disregard information coming directly from players who had Urban Meyer as a coach, and therefore may have some valuable insight into Urban Meyer's willingness to ignore or deny anything detrimental to his concept of team success, up to the point of physical harm to players or, in this case, the alleged criminal abuse of the wife of one of his coaches.

Very odd indeed.

So instead of it being an illegitimate source or edited out of context, you find it more likely that there's a conspiracy against the source?

Seriously?

You really are going to try to make this an issue? Well, I'm done then.

It's a video with player interviews that pertain directly to the thread topic. It is what it is. Take it or leave it as evidence, but at least focus on the thread topic.

I lost my interest in debating anything deeper than Duke's vs Hellman's long ago.

I've heard of project veritas but I don't see anything illegitimate about the player interviews. You hear the questions and then hear & see the player respond to it. There really isn't much cutting of the video when they player is answering except if they jump to a different question. If they players were in some deal to try and make Urban look bad on purpose. they would have never put up their name and would have blurred out the faces and voices.

Bleeding burnt orange and chicago maroon

You're trying to make this broader than it is. See also "whataboutism". James O'Keefe's not a journalist. He's a convicted criminal who has been caught doctoring videos.

BTW one of the guys who was secretly recorded in this (Josh Evans) sounds like he's contacted his attorney and will be taking legal action against O'Keefe. Shockingly, he says O'Keefe took his comments out of context.

No, I'm trying to make the less broad than it was made by the comment "is this a reliable source?".

Player interviews are what they are. You can take them as a bit of evidence or not.

We cannot discuss your allegation of doctoring videos due to the nature of those videos. I would only say that interested people can believe other people who say he "doctored" videos, or interested people can do the longer job of watching the unedited videos and decide for themselves it PV were taking things out of context.
We probably can't even discuss your definition of what a journalist here, and frankly, I have no interest in debating that anyway.

That is as far as I'm willing to go down that particular rabbit hole on this forum.

My point is simply this: A video with player interviews is a bit of evidence that seems to add weight to the case being made against Urban Meyer in this very thread, and I find it extremely odd that a forum that has entertained all sorts of theories based on far less evidence this off season is suddenly going to get so sensitive.

No, you seem to be overly sensitive to the fact that we don't agree that you are referencing a reliable source. We have provided the reasons why.

***nevermind, adding to this thread is pointless***

oof

You put those words together, those are my favorite words, Popeyes and bahama
- Mike Burnup

Where he admits to knowing about 2015 incident despite saying he didn't at media days and claiming Bret made it up. This asshole is going to somehow skate isn't he?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

You beat me by 30 seconds, but I too am wondering what on earth this statement is supposed mean. It completely contradicts his story.

"For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

I think it means, "I knew about it in 2015 and reported it to the proper authorities. As for my statement at B1G media days, I was ambushed and not prepared to talk about that."

I don't think it's going to work.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Think it's far more likely that he just brought down the AD Gene Smith with him.

Does this legally cover him? Probably. Think it's unlikely it saves his job though. If anything he just made things worse for himself in every way but legally.

So he's saying he knew about the 2015 incident when it occurred and reported it? Am I crazy or did he deny (on the record) any knowledge of domestic abuse in 2015 earlier this week.

"For those who have passed, for those to come, reach for excellence."

And he admits it. Says he was not prepared to answer and handled it poorly. That, I find believable. What needs to be answered is exactly how it was handled in 15.

"with all due respect, and remember I’m sayin’ it with all due respect, that idea ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin’ it on" - Ricky Bobby

First of all the whole "I have a mother, wife, daughters, I would never allow abuse to happen blah blah" is the new "I can't be racist, I have friends who are black". It's played out, it's weak and it's obvious. Stop using it.

So from this I'm supposed to believe that he reported it in 2015 and thats it. Didn't care at all otherwise? Yeah he knew this guy was beating his wife and chose to still keep him on staff? Oh but a week after this goes public 3 years later they can him, and we're supposed to believe that Meyer acted appropriately? Especially given everything going on with the wrestling program? Bull. Bullshit on the whole lot.

And of course Buckeye Nation is going to buy this hook line and sinker. They've been desperate to get Gene Smith fired for years and Urban just threw a dump trucks worth of gasoline on the fire. Oh, but we're supposed to trust the independent investigation, right? That independent committee has 6 members, 3 of which are on the OSU Board of Trustees. Independent, indeed.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

Urban Meyer has now admitted he knew about the abuse allegations in 2015....DERP!

EDIT: it's in the letter posted above...cue the internal investigation

Zach Smith just went on the radio and denied that he has ever committed Domestic Violence... So yeah, things are heating up.

Until the texts reveal what you said to your wife after you strangled her.

What's
Important
Now

Now if he recalls correctly, that was the day some drunk stranger borrowed his phone... /s

Brett has receipts. He's letting these coaches dig their own graves publicly before he delivers the coffins.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

And I hope this allows him to pick whatever job he wants. ESPN firing him was a f'ing joke.

He is going to work for a company called Stadium.

It's Time to go to Work

ESPN firing him was a f'ing joke.

FTFY

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

I'm confused, my android phone has me on the right n peoples responses on the left.
My wifes iphone is the same.
Who is the blue text (right side)? Who is the left side? It matters. Maybe this is a setting difference.

Pain is Temporary, Chicks Dig Scars
Glory is Forever, Let's Go Hokies!!

must be a setting thing, that is the way my iPhone is (my contribution is in blue on the right side)

.

.

#extendbronco

It's a screenshot of an iMessage text conversation. When outgoing texts are blue, that means your phone is sending and receiving messages with that person using iMessage. Green is when you are texting someone with an Android phone or someone who has disabled iMessage, or if you have disabled iMessage.

Looks like Courtney Smith took a screenshot from her phone (so her messages are on the right in blue) of her text conversation with Zach (left). The name at the top shows who the text messages are with (from however you put them in your contacts).

OK, this isn't really a response, but it needed to be in this thread somewhere.

It's Time to go to Work

So he knew about it, and reported it to his boss, but then he didn't fire or suspend the staff member, and wasn't prepared about the topic enough to tell the truth when asked about it at a news conference.

Took him and his staff two days to come up with it, but gives weasel-wording a new twist. Would probably work if there weren't video and electronic media.

I think the way his explanation is worded, he's trying to angle in on the third option: protect himself contractually. He may have to go, but he'll be maximizing the payout if he followed his contract to the letter.

Edit: On the other hand, can he get out of it?

I mean the accusations against Meyer are:

1) he didn't do anything about some unproven (but let's face it, some pretty strong and believable) accusations, and
2) he lied to the media about knowing about it, because, you know, he wasn't prepared for those questions.

He'll be walking a tight rope, but he'll have the best PR advice money can buy. No matter what he does, he'll be heckled until the end of time. Will be interesting.

The coaches are supporting the story too. That they know he reported it. What a crock of shit. Maybe everyone including the AD will go down or Urban thinks he will escape free be putting it on the AD.

What's
Important
Now

All the coaches there work for Urban.

The conflict is that if he was aware of the situation in 2015, and his wife essentially knew that it was true, why didn't he actually do something about it? If it's a serious, believable allegation, shouldn't Smith have been on administrative leave until it got resolved?

For an ongoing situation, it seems as if they didn't take it very seriously.

if he was aware of the situation in 2015, and his wife essentially knew that it was true, why didn't he actually do something about it?

My thoughts on this case are evolving. I have come to believe that Title IX was put in place because coaches shouldn't be making such decisions. The concept is to simplify things down to the point that a caveman can do it: "If you hear an allegation, you are required to report it... you don't decide if the allegation has merit- you just report it."

If this situation was accurately reported to the Title 9 coordinator, then it was that coordinator that should have pushed things to the proper conclusion. I would expect that any interaction with the T9 coordinator is well documented. Either the coordinator was kept in the dark, or they didn't do their job.

If the coordinator was not aware of the situation then the first person who is responsible is Urban Meyer... there are no fall guys who can take the blame.

.

.

#extendbronco

So, the purpose of the Title IX coordinator is to provide a fall guy for the $6 million/year coach?

You just report it to that person, and never hear back, then you're in the clear and don't have to take action? That sounds pretty thin.

I agree that it sounds pretty thin, but this may be the weak link in the system. If they push blame from Meyer this is the only place it can go.

There is the age old argument: "He is a football coach, not a XXXX". If you look over on ElevenWarriors XXXX = marriage counselor.

Title IX is an attempt to keep athletic programs from deciding the merits of an allegation. History shows that such programs tend the sweep things under the rug.

.

.

#extendbronco

Well, we can see how that's working out...

I have been hesitant to comment on this because as referenced above about cave man simplicity, the fact that an employer is responsible at all to manage this problem is not the standard. If I were to have a restraining order brought against me my employer would likely take action, but if we are to believe Meyer now in his most recent statement the police were involved in both 2009 amd 2015 and no charges were brought against Smith in either of those instances, so while it may have been the "right" thing to do to fire Smith there likely were other parties involved that would ultimately make that decision for Meyer, such as Ohio States Human Resources, Legal represntatives, Title IX coordinator, school administration, etc. If the case was reported and the police were involved amd didnt refer charges and the school staff didnt recommend firing, I am not sure why Meyer should have been expected to act otherwise.

My big issue so far is there have been no statements or focus on the police involved in these cases, bringing them to the front to explain why charges were not filed, or what evidence they were given compared to all the items Brett Mcmurphy seems to have readily available to stir the pot every time we turn around. If there was evidence that cleared Smith then than the police should be able to bring that forth.

The other piece of this entire action that I havent seen reason for is why in 2018 a restraining order was given. Was there new recent abuse or was it to protect the ex wife prior to McMurphy releasing his story. What changed in the evidence between 2015 and now to warrant a restraining order if no charges are forthcoming?

Not defending any of the people involved but the uproar at Meyer seems overblown compared to the true people responsible for action in a case like this and most of that is because of Meyers Q rating compared to those other people involved.

I think that you are agreeing with me... Title IX is an attempt to make sure incidents like this are properly investigated and dealt with. In a nutshell, if a coach sees enough smoke he is free to flush this turd. Another option is to feed the info up the ladder and let others make the decision. If he did this and nobody advised him to fire this guy then either the evidence is nonexistent or the system above him is corrupt.

Given my personal dislike of UM, and his history of "maybe being too lenient, but I don't care" (paraphrasing his words) I would bet that he didn't pass the info, or did it in a way which trivialized the situation.

I am confident that if Fuente was in this situation he wouldn't wait for someone to tell him right/wrong, he would have flushed immediately.

.

.

#extendbronco

I am confident that if Fuente was in this situation he wouldn't wait for someone to tell him right/wrong, he would have flushed immediately

.

I mean, he kinda already did, for something demonstrably less terrible than domestic violence. I know Galen Scott is forgettable, but it has only been a couple months.

I don't think it's overblown.

Meyer is in a position of responsibility, and it's not really "cave man rules". The purpose of title IX is so that these things get handled by the book, not so that someone other than the coach becomes the fall guy if the organization lets it slide. Meyer is responsible for his organization, not the title IX coordinator.

That Meyer got data points in 2009 and in 2015 means he should have taken some kind of action. That they fired Smith this year says that they feel that the charges are substantiated. That Meyer lied about it last month says that he isn't so sure if he did the right thing himself.

Do I think he'll be fired? Sort of depends on the details. At a minimum, Smith should have been getting some counseling, and OSU should have been involved and talking to his wife, not sending out a couple of people to convince her not to press charges (if that's really what happened). Mistakes were made, and the Buck(eye) stops with Meyer. The story not adding up, even as incomplete as it is, does look really bad. Before this wraps up, the official story is going to add up.

Is Meyer a marriage counselor? No. He's also not the police. But a lot will depend on if everyone handled this by the book. If it turns out that anyone deferred on this because of Ohio State football, some heads are gonna roll.

If it turns out is perceived that anyone deferred on this because of Ohio State football, some heads are gonna roll.

I think this is slightly more accurate.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

IF and I mean IF he reported it- The OSU Athletic Department isn't a lemonade stand there should be some contemporaneous record of it- email, memo to the file, note in a personel file to substantiate this.

Yes, there should be. However, the dude remained employed after it. That's what looks so bad in all of this. Meyer continued to keep him on staff after issues in FL and at OSU.

Meyer gets off because of this quote Zach smith relayed a conversation urban had with him in his office:

Meyer -

"What the hell is going on here? What is this?"[smith denies anything happened] "if I found out you hit her I swear, you're done"

All he has to show is he knew something was going on took steps but didn't know the full extent and when he found out he fired him.

He gets fired if there's proof he had evidence of actual abuse and never did anything with it.

You may be right, but it's a bit convenient that his cover is provided by the guy he protected by doing nothing.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

When Zach was interviewed he said he never hit his wife. They are definitely going to get into a nuance defense similar to: I may have pushed her violently, choked her, grabbed her violently but I never hit her. I'm sure that defense has actually used before to have the abuser portrayed as having an anger management problem rather than actually being an abuser.

Either way, a decade ago Urban probably would have gotten off (who can forget that Laurence Phillips (sp?) still played after his abuse was exposed) but there is just no way that happens today. They'll work out some compensation package to have him walk away.

I still dont have a solid opinion on any of it. The story is incomplete. Nothing adds up.

"with all due respect, and remember I’m sayin’ it with all due respect, that idea ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin’ it on" - Ricky Bobby

So this is somewhat related, so I thought I would share....

One of my bosses is from the Columbus, OH area and is town. She shed some information on me... She lives like 5 minutes away from Urban's & Shelley's house and apparently they (their marriage) has been going through turmoil. There has been multiple calls (over 50) over the years to the police for arguments they have had but the police just tell them to work it out and just shrug it off. Their personalities are apparently polar opposites... Shelley is really out there and robust, where as Urban is very low key. Urban is apparently worried about the situation with the domestic violence against Z.Smith and he isn't sure how it will turn out.

So nothing crazy but news I thought was.... newsworthy.

Bleeding burnt orange and chicago maroon

These are hard to reconcile:

Urban Meyer:

Shelley Meyer:

Ugh that's revolting

who ruins a perfectly good steak with... *shudder*... greens

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

They're just to decorate the plate, and save you from having to order a salad that you're not going to eat...

Wouldn't stop me from enjoying that meat.

If it's on someone else's dime, it ain't ruined

Never Forget #1 Overall Seed UVA 54, #64 UMBC 74

Not trying to read too into it, but if the cops are called into a domestic dispute, usually there's an altercation of some type involved. Is this source assuming that Smith's accusations may lead to accusations on Meyer? Cause that's what I got out of it.

TKPhi Damn Proud
BSME 2009

It may more hint at the fact that OSU Football is THE most important thing in OH. Which... Is not far from the truth.

My father in law grew up in Columbus and is a huge OSU fan. He is a good man and has a strong Christian faith, but it is amazing how he will defend anything that is related to OSU football. He did it with Tressel when he was in hot water (later after he was fired he said he should have been) and he is doing the same with Urban now. He looks as it as a black and white thing...."he reported the issue". Well, we don't know if he actually did. Urban is a proven liar in this case....and he continued to keep the guy employed for 3 years.

I haven't had a discussion with him about it. I'd be curious to see how he felt if another Big 10 team were going through this.

I think they are going to let him get away with it at this point. It seems like all signs point that way.

What's
Important
Now

I think they are going to let him get away with it at this point. It seems like all singes point that way.

Singe is French for "monkey", so I'm inclined to agree.

But on a more serious note, the investigation needs to be thorough and the story needs to add up at the end of the day. Someone dropped the ball on this, so someone will have to take the blame, I'd think.

Could Urban's antics bring down the UF AD as well?

No because as refernced above it is the former AD. The current Florida AD had nothing to do with 2009. Now could the former AD get dragged through the smear campaign, absolutely because we are now a guilty until proven innocent society or take a second bite of the apple society like we are seeing play out in Hollywood with people being punished a second time because we have to fill the 24 hour news cycle with something. See James Gunn and a few other directors right now. Made public amends for actions years ago but employers kowtowing to public outrage when its spun back into the cycle again.

Just when you thought things couldn't get nuttier...

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

So Urban Meyer didn't step up, but Tom Herman did?

Wow.

Step up...3 years after the fact?

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

It's all relative.

step up? more like drop a dime on a competitor. At this point Herman stands to benefit by undercutting the competition.

Come to Blacksburg and see what the Hokie Pokie is really all about

Herman denies it and Brett McMurphy says neither Herman nor anyone related to him was the initial source. I question the validity of Jeff Snook's reporting. It's just a strategy to muddy the waters since the source is irrelevant to the abuse allegations/cover-up.

It's Time to go to Work

Jeff Snook has gone full damage control fan nutjob on his reporting of this. All the classics blame the victim, discrete her, drag in family and friends, try to find "the neighbor that called the cops (informed the media), I used to have some respect for 11w not anymore.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" - Colonel Sanders via Ricky Bobby

Tom Herman anagrams to Hot Merman

Chem PhD '16

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Warning: this post occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)..

Excuse me what the fuck

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

Shit if I got invited to the White House I'd definitely take a dick pic in the bathroom. That's perfectly normal right? /s

As weird as that is, it seems the investigation is going nowhere fast. I believe Meyer will be reinstated. Does anyone else see see some form of protests at and around game days for an OSU if he returns to the team?

Shit, come on MAN!, 3 of the 6 "independent" council members are OSU Regents, its Bullshit.

Pain is Temporary, Chicks Dig Scars
Glory is Forever, Let's Go Hokies!!

Yeah I dont see how this really has anything to do with the investigation.

"with all due respect, and remember I’m sayin’ it with all due respect, that idea ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin’ it on" - Ricky Bobby

You don't see where Smith having a sexual relationship with an OSU employee in the building is relevant?

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

It is more evidence that Smith is a slimeball. We knew that already. If Urban is linked, that is a story. I dislike Urban Meyer but this feels more like a witch hunt with each news release.

"with all due respect, and remember I’m sayin’ it with all due respect, that idea ain’t worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin’ it on" - Ricky Bobby

I mean there are many possible reasons this would be investigated: it could be an HR problem, it could be a student employee, was this relationship funded From osu funds, did Urban know about it? Why doesn't the staffer work there anymore? All of this and other questions should be answered.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

I think you've missed some of the details. On the surface the "shocking details" of this story don't seem to indicate wrongdoing by Meyer. If you believe that Zach Smith is a slime ball though, you don't have any qualms about Meyer potentially discussing the incident with two people very close to him who then talked Courtney Smith out of reporting the incident against her in 2009? The point of the investigation is to find out about Meyer's actions and knowledge. This is more information from Courtney Smith- and frankly I can see why she would release it given the amount of "she's batshit crazy. Now I don't even think Zach did anything wrong and she's determined to bring both him and Urban down" that you'll find on Eleven Warriors. Just because the details of an investigation haven't been leaked doesn't at all mean that it's "going nowhere fast" or "a witch hunt." That said I wouldn't be shocked if Meyer is reinstated shortly if they aren't able to find any damning information against him that is likely to become public.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

No. I don't think there will be any protests if he returns. The value of a winning OSU football team should not be underestimated. If there are protests it won't be from Ohio State fans.

Protests? They'll throw a fucking parade

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

There could be 3 or 4 people carrying some sort of sign, but I'm not sure I'd call that protest. Prob fewer people than those at loluva that want to do away with football all together, but slightly more than the number at the loluva football spring fling

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Teflon Urb! Slippery son of a gun...

via GIPHY

More than likely going to get off Scot free.

"...I'm getting a little tired of hearing how good everybody else is..." -Coach Fu [This week: 1-0]

A read a Bleacher report notification yesterday, that they were going to suspend Urban for a few games. Like we all thought, they would figure out a way to keep him there with a slap on the wrist.

What's
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Few games? Last I heard they were going to suspend him for 2 weeks, with credit given for time served, so he'll be on the sidelines next weekend.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

Still no word about Urban Meyer's fate, as whatever is going on there is into its seventh hour, per Pete Thamel.

In other news, Buckeye Nation has been unloading on Brett McMurphy for daring to sully the name of their dear leader. Says McMurphy...

All I know is that if Michigan's play-calling under Harbaugh was as creative as some of the ways Ohio State fans have told me to have sex with myself, Harbaugh would have three national titles.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

edit: got me, until i read the comments after the initial tweet

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Big if true.

I appreciate all the support, and I appreciate all the hate I am getting. I will continue to work as hard as I can to be the best I can be and bring this team a championship. Go Hokies 🐔 - Josh Jackson

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

I don't care who you are, that's funny.

Having a conversation with you is like a Martian talking to a Fungo.

#JustinTime

Well, I'm genuinely surprised. Interested to hear the press conference.

Edit: wait a second that's not 11W twitter....

So this is not legit?

What's
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100% not a legit sauce

*110% not a legit sauce

*800% not a legit sauce

It seems the hold up is that an university president wants him to have some sort of suspension, but the board of trustees doesn't, and Urban refuses to accept a suspension because he thinks he did nothing wrong. Motherfucker's already been caught lying twice during this saga, and kept a known abuser on his staff. How can he possibly see himself as totally innocent in this? Man the hell up, accept responsibility, and be happy your university cares more about football than it does violence against women.

It doesn't take 9 hours to decide to fire somebody, it takes 9 hours to come up with all the mental gymnastics required to explain why you didn't fire them.

Or they 2 are trying to figure out a way to fire him without paying a massive buyout.

What's
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If you can believe the reports coming from Columbus, the discussion was never about whether to fire him at all. Supposedly a substantial portion of people involved believe there should be no repercussions at all, while the OSU President is trying to convince them that a short suspension is appropriate.

Since you agree I ain't gonna let you drive this car to dinner and I agree you ain't gonna let me drive this car to dinner, there's only one way to settle this.

Urban Meyer suspended for the first 3 games of the season....what courage on the part of the OSU administration /s

So three games without that guy. That will show them.

Since you agree I ain't gonna let you drive this car to dinner and I agree you ain't gonna let me drive this car to dinner, there's only one way to settle this.

Apparently it was only mildly warm water.

A few uninvited opinions from a Buckeye fan, and you can upvote me or condemn as you see fit.

I read the McMurphy pieces, listened to all of the other bloviating types on the airwaves, read the 23 page report, and all that.

Before I get into what I think, here is what I know:

1) Urban Meyer loved Earle Bruce, and Zach Smith is Bruce's grandson.

2) Smith was able to recruit great WR talent to Ohio State. He also couldn't coach dogs to bark or lead a bunch of hungry fat men to a buffet line. He said and did embarrassing things at times. OSU fans, me included, couldn't understand why he was on an otherwise stellar staff - and this was before this domestic violence shitstorm. The ONLY explanation was (see fact #1).

3) Zach is a troubled young man and he marries, either a troubled young woman, or she became troubled during the marriage. Regardless, they have a toxic marriage and relationship. Alcohol abuse is a factor with both of them. When as a GA in 2009 under Urban at Florida, she says that she was physically abused by Zach. Both sides of the family discourage her to not make this a police issue. Urban knew about this incident, reported it, recommended counselling, and there are no official reports of problems between the Smiths for 6 years. Urban brings him to Ohio State as a WR coach in 2012. Because Zach is a degenerate human being in many ways, he cheats on Courtney which leads to a 2015 DV accusation from her against Zach and this was also reported within the athletic building. Many, many more accusations followed. She called Powell, Ohio police dozens of times. On several of those occasions when they investigated, they found that Zach had been at a meeting or practice at Ohio State during the time in question. No charges were ever filed against Zach. Eventually, there was a divorce.

4) In the spring of this year, Courtney secures a restraining order from a judge to keep Zach 500 feet away from her. In May, Zach dropped the kids off at her house which constituted a trespassing charge and a violation of the RO. In late July, Urban and the AD find out about it, and they decide that they have to fire Zach the day before B1G Media Days in Chicago. At that event, Urban confirms that he has let Zach go, and affirms the 2009 and 2018 events, but denies the 2015 part. He had read a media story and didn't think it was accurate. He asked Director of Football Operations, Ryan Stamper, the night before he spoke to the media if Zach had been arrested for DV in 2015, and Stamper accurately told him, "no". In addition, AD Gene Smith gave Urban good advice the night before to just talk about what he knew for sure. Instead, when asked about 2015, Urban said, "I don't know how a story like that gets created." - in apparent reference to the idea of Zach being arrested, but his comments went beyond that narrow arrest idea and was reasonably taken as a denial of the entire 2015 event. That resulted in Courtney responding by providing pictures and more accusations against Zach and Urban through Brett McMurphy - and then the shitstorm began in earnest. Urban is placed on paid admin leave for 3 weeks and an investigation is announced (with a miraculous 2 week time frame).

5) Urban issued a statement to get his side out there, which altered the "Urban loves/supports/abets domestic violence" narrative. Zach Smith gave an interview that helped Urban in the sense that it put people on alert that there are two sides to this story.

6) In the meantime we learn a myriad of ways that Zach had demonstrated that he is a degenerate. Brought his GF home one night to he and Courtney's house to sleep on the couch. Ordered sex toys delivered to the Woody Hayes athletic center. Spent $600 in a strip club while blowing off a recruiting visit. DUI's and all kinds of tawdry details. We also learned that Courtney isn't pure as the driven snow. She has alcohol and violence problems herself. Her mother and mother-in-law confirmed that the only DV they ever saw was her hitting him. They also both said that she vowed she would take Zach and Urban down. It must be noted that Courtney and her mother are estranged. Courtney was clearly married to an asshole, and Zach clearly had a scorned woman on his hands, and, as the saying goes, "Hell hath no fury."

7) Despite everything I have seen and read, I have seen no absolute proof that Zach Smith battered Courtney Smith. I have seen pictures of injuries that make me think he did, but there are other factors that indicate she is weaponizing the domestic violence accusation against Zach and anyone she thinks is "on his side." It's the court's job to sort all that BS out, but what is clear is that these are two very dysfunctional people who were in a toxic marriage, and now are in a toxic post-divorce period.

8) We are in a strange period in American life. In sports we "hate" others - especially others who win too much, or are arrogant while they are being successful, and we want bad things to happen to them and for them to not be successful. Schadenfreude is very common in sports fandom, and while I think it is inappropriate and a more embarrassing part of human nature, I get it when we are talking about winning a game. I'm not comfortable with it at all when lives, families, careers, etc. are being destroyed. It becomes very sick. We are also in a period where things like "you have to believe the woman" are thrown out there like they are unassailable truths of life. No I don't. What I have to believe, and should believe, is what is credible based on the facts available. If the "victim" really is the victim, then I believe them, but I don't believe them just because they say they are the victim. To follow this new rule of society, I would have to believe that women never lie in these situations, and I would have to deny the experience I have of seeing dozens of women lie in these situations. I've seen dozens of women tell the absolute truth in these kinds of cases as well, but "you have to believe the woman" is irrational, stupid, and dangerous. Then it gets followed up with this sea of virtue signaling that is disgusting. It basically hands women the power to destroy a man any time they want to with an accusation. We better think about that a while before we jump on board with this.

I'll get back in a few days to share what I think about what Urban is guilty of, how OSU handled it, and answer any criticism for the above.

In the meantime, enjoy another great Labor Day weekend game against a great opponent. Go Hokies! Pulling for them.

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

This is why it smells like shit to me. I'm not saying it was all urban, but no one should make excuses like this. If this information is entirely true, there is no way he should be coaching at OSU. Can you imagine if he can't remember one of his player's actions

. I will await your final determination since you are closer to the program.

I appreciate all the support, and I appreciate all the hate I am getting. I will continue to work as hard as I can to be the best I can be and bring this team a championship. Go Hokies 🐔 - Josh Jackson

for the most part this sounds fairly well reasoned, but I take issue with points made in 6, 7 and 8.

6.

We also learned that Courtney isn't pure as the driven snow. She has alcohol and violence problems herself. Her mother and mother-in-law confirmed that the only DV they ever saw was her hitting him. They also both said that she vowed she would take Zach and Urban down.

I hadn't read that she has issues with alcohol and violence. Can you add links to verify this with a timeline and credible sources of her incidents? I specifically would like to know if she had issues prior to her relationship with Zach. Her estranged mother and mother-in-law unfortunately are both biased sources so I can't take what they say as evidence. I can however read the messages from Urban's wife commenting on the abuse as a credible source. So I think your factually incorrect here, unless, as I said there is credible info I missed.

7.

I have seen no absolute proof that Zach Smith battered Courtney Smith

not sure what you are looking for here. you want a video of him beating her? as with most domestic violence cases the abused often covers up the incidents, doesn't report them or otherwise tries to avoid there being evidence at all. So saying that you need absolute proof is fairly ignorant of the realities of these cases. Most times it takes secondary corroborating evidence to prove the likeliness of abuse. Again in this case Urban's own wife corroborates that these events took place and that she, according to his wife's judgement, should take action such as a restraining order. I urge you to re-look at how you're assessing this information.

8. honestly this whole passage seems disingenuous. I'll try to break it apart to illustrate:

In sports we "hate" others - especially others who win too much, or are arrogant while they are being successful, and we want bad things to happen to them and for them to not be successful. Schadenfreude is very common in sports fandom, and while I think it is inappropriate and a more embarrassing part of human nature, I get it when we are talking about winning a game. I'm not comfortable with it at all when lives, families, careers, etc. are being destroyed. It becomes very sick.

This is basically saying: Look I get it. Everyone is jealous of winners and we win, so they want to hate Urban and want to see something bad happen to OSU. But that line of thinking ruins lives.

Which is total BS. Sure, some people may feel that way but largely they are a vocal minority that have been given a bullhorn via the internet and social media. The majority of people I would bet you don't really give a damn and are more concerned whether a woman is getting beat or not, which is an actual way to ruin a life. To obfuscate that point, which is more important, with the line of thinking that schadenfreude is the underlying motivation to people's ire towards Urban and OSU is far more dangerous than what you claim is "very sick".

We are also in a period where things like "you have to believe the woman" are thrown out there like they are unassailable truths of life. No I don't. What I have to believe, and should believe, is what is credible based on the facts available.

Then it gets followed up with this sea of virtue signaling that is disgusting. It basically hands women the power to destroy a man any time they want to with an accusation. We better think about that a while before we jump on board with this.

The MeToo movement has been extremely powerful and it has effected many men, powerful and not so powerful. But MeToo could never have claimed the power that it has if the majority of what has come to light were not in fact true. That doesn't mean we should believe women outright, because there are always, ALWAYS complexities to every story. I think Aziz Ansari is a good allegory of the line that could fall precariously into the wrong. Overall it seems like an unfortunate occurrence that night, but they also have distinctly different views of how those occurrences transpired. And yet, he has basically been unseen since. This is unfortunate because there is no evidence and no reason to believe one over the other. yet it happened. But this happened because, unfortunately for Aziz if he is blameless, the foundation of MeToo is rooted in the truthful, accurate accounts of powerful men behaving disgustingly toward women in outright sexual assaults. That kind of wave is going to drag out issues like Aziz Ansari and take what could be a simple misunderstanding and apologetic circumstance way out into the deep waters of assault. Cut back to this issue with Zach and Courtney.

There are pictures. There is corroborating evidence to the abuse from at minimum Urban's wife. There is a restraining order. And there is a mountain of factual behavioral issues with Zach regarding violence, sex and substance abuse. This is not an Aziz Ansari situation. This is a situation of abuse factually corroborated by someone in a position to know. We as observers need to be astute in recognizing the difference and we need to be unbiased enough to call a spade a spade when it potentially affects something we care about.

So no, accusations should never be wholesale believed without some measure of proof. But your deluding yourself if you believe there is no measure of proof in this situation.

Regarding Urban, I can't say whether he violated any law, or contract clause or only ethically in the wrong. What I can say is that his excuses as FudBoster pointed out are not just dubious, but outright idiotic and angering. The idea that he was great friend's with Zach's relative is not a good enough reason to excuse actions by Urban, if he has done them, to hide the abuse or try to control Courtney's decision to go public. To me those are the facts that NEED to be verified at this point.

Final point, you said she publicly stated she was going to take Zach and Urban down, as if that is a bad thing. Why? If they have harmed her and hid this then why shouldn't she have this motivation? And why shouldn't she be supported to do so?

Your point about schadenfreude should be self-reflective. Nothing is more important than the well being of another. Not even sports. Don't let your passion for your team, and your fallacious belief that others want to tear it down simply because they are jealous, cloud your reasoning. If Urban and his staff truly did something wrong then you should want it corrected as much, if not more, than anyone else even if that means he is dismissed.

I wish ANY news organization in Columbus had the stones to go after anOSU, Urban, Powell Police and Delaware county prosecutor.
There is zero reason the Lantern a student newspaper was the one trying to get FOIA requests for cell phones and being stonewalled. There is zero reason why Powell police changed incident reports and still claims the incidents are still "open" and thus not subject to FOIA requests. These news organizations in a Columbus are afraid of losing their access to the program and alienating their readers and viewers in Buckeye cult nation.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Couldn't have said it better myself.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

What's crazy is that A LOT of the same people who were ripping into Penn St and Michigan St over the last 10 years for these exact same kind of statements are now pearl clutching because its their dear Buckeyes in the crosshairs. This statement:

Schadenfreude is very common in sports fandom, and while I think it is inappropriate and a more embarrassing part of human nature, I get it when we are talking about winning a game.

Shows such a complete and utter lack of self awareness given the uproar in Columbus that it truly does boggle the mind. This fanbase, just like the ones at Penn St, Michigan State, Baylor (hell, now even Liberty, given their recent hires) have shown time and time again that it doesn't care whose lives are ruined just so long as the athletic programs remain strong.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

Thank you for posting this Fernley.

I wanted to reply but don't think I could have written something this good.

Urban knew. The police knew. OSU football is too precious to the state to let lives get in the way. There is no way someone didn't tip him off even to give him the opportunity to cover his ass.

I wish I could up vote this more than once.

What's
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The more I read this post, the more I am disgusted. Lines like these:

"We also learned that Courtney isn't pure as the driven snow."

What the fuck does this have to do with anything. Are you somehow positing that only the most upstanding citizens can possibly be victims of domestic violence?

"She has alcohol and violence problems herself."

Maybe you would have a drinking problem too if your husband regularly cheated on you and beat the shit out of you and you felt like you were trapped with nowhere to go and when everyone, local law enforcement included, seemed to be on your abusers side trying to gaslight you into thinking it is all in your head, it's not that bad, he will change just give him another chance, and that you are the one being unreasonable.

" It must be noted that Courtney and her mother are estranged."

Really? Must it be noted? What the ever-living fuck does her relationship with her mother have to do with any of this? Are you again somehow positing that only those with fantastic relationships with their mothers can possibly be victims of domestic violence?

All of this is right out of the "discredit the victim" handbook. You can fuck right off with that shit. Once you dropped to that level you completely invalidated everything else you have posted, as you have revealed your true motivations. Rethink you priorities in life. Your scarlet and gray glasses are making you completely miss what is right in front of your face and are causing you to embarrass yourself.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Excellent observations. I went back and down-voted the post (not yours and not that I had up-voted it to begin with). I think this is the first time I have down-voted anything.

You're point about this comment...

"It must be noted that Courtney and her mother are estranged."

...is especially revealing about the level of character assassination that is being perpetrated against Courtney. This is a largely irrelevant point and egregiously demonstrates everything that is and has been wrong with this entire situation.

I had the same visceral response at first and took time to reflect before I explained things more civilly. There is either a willful ignorance or a blatant stupidity about domestic violence and what it means to be a victim.

that being said, I am reading the note about her mother being estranged differently than you both. I think the OP is actually giving credence that the source of that info (her mother and mother-in-law) is unreliable, hence the note.

I know it's difficult to do but he seems to have come here to discuss this sincerely so let's try to explain it to him respectfully

Fair enough. I think that the tenor of the rest of his post lead me to perhaps misread the intent of that particular sentence.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing."
-Ron Swanson

"11-0, bro"
-Hunter Carpenter (probably)

Abuse of any sort is so grave of an accusation that no matter who the accuser or the accused are, it should be looked into no matter what.

If it isn't, it allows for the abuse to continue.

Someone like my mother who is a teacher knows that if one of her students comes in saying so and so hits me or shows signs of abuse, she is legally not allowed to brush that aside. They have to look into it.

But in the case of sexual and domestic violence, misogyny and patriarchy has long silenced victims.

There are more than a few stats out there that show 1 time offenders, convicted or not, become repeat offenders.

What's
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I think the proper interpretation of LoveVanOSU's post is that one should factor in all evidence before drawing any conclusions. LVOSU presented a lot of information there in a concise manner that has been lost in the rush to judgment that this sort of situation incurs these days.

It'd behoove us to ask him questions about his intent rather than assume the worst. I don't see anything in his statement that can be fairly framed as victim blaming. Point 7 makes it apparent that LVOSU doesn't know yet where the truth is in this situation, and is waiting for the experts (as much as any judicial process lends itself to such a label) to make their determination.

Point 8 doesn't seem to have any lack of self awareness. I see nothing there where LVOSU is claiming to be above any selfish motivations, merely a call for everyone to try not to allow their judgment to be swayed by anything other than the facts.

People don't practice empathy enough.

Replace any victim with someone you know like your sister or mother, or some local woman you knew your entire life.

If it were any of them would you be like oh well Maggie married a troubled young man?

Cheating is one thing...

There are many cases out there where bosses have fired employees because they found out the employee was cheating. on their spouse. It shows complete lack of moral authority.

Yet here you have a highly regarded coach, brushing his assistants trouble under the rug time and time again so he can win more games.

What's
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First: Accusing me of having no empathy in this situation is not conducive to any discussion whatsoever.

Second: Empathy has nothing to do with finding the truth of a matter in domestic violence.

In point of fact, in your exhortation for me to practice empathy, your example in the context of this thread asks me to replace not a victim, but an alleged victim (as no legal decision has yet been come to in the OSU case). To turn your post on its head, assume a case where the alleged victim is making up the story, and blaming someone you know like your brother or father or son or best friend. Should I still allow my empathy for the alleged victim of violence take the place of a calm calculation of the evidence?

If you are claiming that the distinction between victim and alleged victim doesn't matter, then you are advocating for a justice system that is fundamentally different than the one that currently exists.

I see nothing there where LVOSU is claiming to be above any selfish motivations, merely a call for everyone to try not to allow their judgment to be swayed by anything other than the facts.

except when he clearly states he is swayed by what he sees as schadenfreude against OSU, and disregards the facts that are plainly available that go against his narrative. Urban's wife corroborating the abuse for example.

I agree with you that we should ask him to elaborate rather than assume the worst, But he is making much more of a statement than "let's all wait until more facts come out."

I think that could have been handled like, "Please don't make any judgments without more evidence. This matter is difficult for all involved."

There is no need to lay out a case that accuses the victim of wrongdoing. The gist of the messages is, "You don't really know what's going on because you don't know how bad a person Courtney really is".

I am not swayed by the case being laid out in a concise manner because this is what I am reading:

1. Urban Meyer loved Earle Bruce, and Zach Smith is Bruce's grandson.

This is a way to endear and humanize Urban Meyer to you. He's a good friend.

2. Smith was able to recruit great WR talent to Ohio State...

Smith did something valuable for OSU, but in general, nobody knows why he's around other than point 1 which "He's around because Urban Meyer is a good friend and has a soft heart and sometimes doesn't make the best decisions. because he's a caring loyal friend." Basically setting up the idea that Meyer's only fault is that he's loyal and makes decisions that don't always benefit the football program.

3. Zach is a troubled young man and he marries, either a troubled young woman, or she became troubled during the marriage. Regardless, they have a toxic marriage and relationship...

This is to start painting the picture of a "no fault" issue. Zach has problems but they have a toxic relationship. Basically meaning he could be at fault but there are extenuating circumstances. And to start transitioning the blame to Courtney.

4. In the spring of this year, Courtney secures a restraining order from a judge to keep Zach 500 feet away from her...

I will admit that is where I started following the story and I initially dismissed it as two people who can't get along escalating a feud. But... I now believe I was wrong in that belief so I am not about to be swayed back into to that belief. This paragraph is meant to set up an "unfortunate" misunderstanding whereby Urban Meyer botched a statement to the media but nothing else.

5. Urban issued a statement to get his side out there...

This paragraph is mostly filler to me.

6. In the meantime we learn a myriad of ways that Zach had demonstrated that he is a degenerate...

This places blame on Zach but also suggests Courtney is part of the problem.

7. Despite everything I have seen and read, I have seen no absolute proof that Zach Smith battered Courtney Smith...

Basically: Courtney is a liar.

8. We are in a strange period in American life...

For the most part this reads: The only reason this is an issue is because we choose to believe lying women based on our hatred for OSU.

So to summarize why this is so un-compelling:

Urban Meyer is a loyal friend who employed Zach regardless of his shortcomings. However, even though he was as close to Zach as a family member he didn't know anything about any of these issues or refused to believe them. Zach seems to be the problem, but if you really look at the facts (which is funny because there are no facts according to the original post) then you will realize that Courtney is a vengeful woman who is trying to destroy both Zach and Urban Meyer for the purpose of... Unfortunately for all involved this story is only believable because OSU wins to many football games and should this scandal have happened at say... I don't know... Virginia Tech then it wouldn't be a big deal.

Did I miss something?

Sounds about right to me.

5. Urban issued a statement to get his side out there...

This paragraph is mostly filler to me.
..........
You might notice Urban Meyer's name is pretty much absent from the rest of this list.

You wouldn't want the foggy memory, text deleting details to get in the way of your carefully constructed narrative.

Exactly. The truth is, no one gave two shits about Zach Smith's innocence until they thought it might impact Meyer. Now everyone in Ohio needs 3 creditable, "white as the driven snow" eye witnesses and video proof before they're willing to agree that Courtney Smith is, in fact, a victim.

Zach Smith went scorched earth on Twitter yesterday.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

quite the rant. maybe he ran out of meds?

.

.

#extendbronco

Could you embed? Twitter is blocked, but not when embedded.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

It's really not worth the time to read it

Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies

This plus I'm not going to post some of the crap he did or using his kids as props in this.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

Fair enough. I know he's a douchebag, just wondering what kind of interesting douchebaggery he was into last night.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

Mostly just saying that none of the allegations are real, the ex-wife is bitter about this and that, and that her actions are harming their kids. Y'know, the usual victim-blaming routine.

Yeah, you're right, it's better off not posted here.

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

His term was ending next year anyway, but I applaud his gesture.

OK. There are too many things here to address specifically. It would take a tome, and although I'm capable, I don't think it merits it or you would want to read it.

There are some legit points and criticism in the above up to my post. I will try to acknowledge a couple of those. FudBoster notes the part of the report where there were some apparent excuses for Urban's poor communication at media days - particularly the part about medication. I have no doubts the committee sincerely thought this may have been a factor, but including it in the report comes off as very lame, esp when lined up with a bunch of other iffy excuses. Bottom line is that I knew what questions Urban was going to be asked the night before and I knew what he should say: 1) "Due to legal proceedings and privacy issues I am not commenting on this situation beyond that we fired him, and for right now, that's all I have to say." 2) Give 100% accurate details and the full truth. If you are confused or unsure about #2, you go to #1. What you don't do is give inaccurate details to people who check out details for a living. The point I would make here is, if Urban had used either of those responses, is there a controversy, an investigation, and a suspension? I think not.

Fernleyhokie actually got close to getting the reason I noted that Courtney and her mother are estranged. The two mothers corroborate several important points, but they are also both estranged from Courtney. Wanted to make sure that I wasn't understood to be saying, "Even her mother..." since the estrangement provides an important context. Normally estranged parents would be quiet in this situation to avoid having their dirty family laundry aired in public. She either said what she said because she thinks her daughter is creating injustices, or she wants to do harm to her daughter for whatever caused the estrangement.

The rest of the responses to my OP I would put into the category of narratives. In this case it looks something like this: "Zach Smith abused Courtney Smith for years and Meyer did nothing about it. Urban knew everything about it and the police knew. OSU football is too precious to the state to let lives get in the way, so the investigation is a sham, and the suspension is a joke." In this case, facts and rumor get thrown into the same pot, exculpatory facts get ignored, and the narrative itself becomes the standard of what is true. The problem with the narrative above is that there is no proof to any of it, and there is some strong evidence against every aspect of that narrative. I can get into that if asked. But, for one example, Ohio State has fired 4 HC's in my lifetime. 2 of them were revered: Woody Hayes and Jim Tressel. They were fired for punching an opposing player and lying to the university and the NCAA. So, now we have this institution, who fired these two beloved men for inappropriate violence and lying, who is willing to whitewash violence, lying, and covering up to win football games today? Hmmm. The other two coaches were fired for failing to meet the win expectations. Bruce didn't win enough, and Cooper didn't win the right games. In the world of Power 5 football programs and coaching, winning is the goal and purpose. With winning comes bunches of dollars. This is true in Cbus, Ohio and Blacksburg, Va and everywhere else. However, especially in this day and age of sensitivity to certain subjects, no one can afford to place winning above doing what is right. The few that do, pay a horrible price. So, even if someone does want to choose "winning" over doing the right thing, they are morons if they actually do it.

But here is the problem with the self-verifying narrative: what is actually right doesn't matter. Truth and justice get trampled on because the narrative is served regardless of what is true and just. I see this going on in a lot of areas of life, and it's very sad for anyone who finds themselves the target of whatever the narrative is.

Another point I want to make is that marriages are intensely personal matters. It is very, very difficult to know what is going on. My wife and I do volunteer marital counselling, so I am not talking in the abstract here. We often have one or the other (usually the wife) claiming some form of abuse. We don't even take up the issue of who is telling the truth initially. Just the allegation means that you separate the two immediately for the safety and well-being of both of them. Over time, with legal processes, counselling, etc., the truth almost always becomes clear. But, instead of taking the "you have to believe the woman" approach, we take the "both are lying until we know otherwise" approach because it allows us to remain critical and objective. There are no real solutions to imaginary problems and no imaginary solutions to real problems. If you go chasing imaginary solutions to imaginary problems, you are doing no one any good, and will often end up doing a lot of harm. That's a big reason why I look at the Smith's situation the way I do.

Pictures are worth 1000 words and Courtney has some. That has to be weighed heavily. A video with audio showing how the injuries occurred would be even better, but we don't have that. We have seen women who hurt themselves to create pictures like that. We have also seen women have bruises and scratches because she was beating the crap out of him and he was trying to stop and restrain her enough to just get some distance. We have also seen plenty of cases where the pictures accurately represent him beating her. I'm 50-50 on this Smith situation until I hear what a court has said or will say about it. There are the pictures that we should weigh heavily, but not one human being has ever seen Zach hit her, but quite a few have been told by her that he hit her. OTOH, multiple people, including the mothers, say that the only DV they ever saw was her hitting him. Zach used the "I was trying to just get away from her" thing, and anyone is free to take that FWIW. I don't know. What I do know is that if there is no real DV, then there is no abetting, covering up, etc. and the narrative is total bullshit.

If Urban did what the narrative says he did, then give me the authority and I will fire him myself. But he didn't. He tried to help a troubled young man because he loved his grandfather. That dynamic caused him to put up with more than he should have. There was a marital issue and allegation of DV in 2009 that he reported and encouraged counselling for --> nothing on record for 6 years. He probably thought that was behind them, but it crept back up in 2015 because of Zach's cheating. There was, again, proper reporting according to the findings., But wiith the arrest for trespassing and violating the RO, Urban couldn't protect him any longer, and Gene Smith forced his hand. Urban totally blows it in communicating the 2015 situation, and that brought the media scrutiny, the investigation, and the suspension along.

You can't find one sane person who believes DV is acceptable, or even tolerable. I'm sure UM is one of those people. He has disciplined players harshly for disrespecting women. A woman in a night club smacked Carlos Hyde upside the head, and Carlos swatted back at her (but didn't make contact) and got suspended for 3 games. Urban asked Zach in 2015 if he hit her, Zach denied it, and Urban told him that if he found out he did that he was fired.

So, Urban failed and is guilty of several things, but I don't think he is guilty of what those of you who support the narrative think he is. He had a blind spot for Zach because of his reverence for Earle. He kept a degenerate and a poor-performing coach on his staff because of it (so much for the "win at all costs" part of the narrative). Because he held onto him, one toxic marriage ends up getting wrapped around his neck and program. He communicates poorly and gives valid reason for truth-seekers and enemies to suspect or allege lies and a cover-up. Then he communicates poorly again when given a chance to speak directly to Courtney. The man is a great football coach, but he should never be allowed to talk on sensitive subjects again unless he is reading from a PR firm's prepared statement. But taking all that he is guilty of, none of those are absolute reasons to fire him. You only get there when you are a believer in the narrative against him.

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

You have good points and so does fud, but I would like to point out one very damning issue. Urban deliberately deleted all old texts on his phone ahead of the requests for his phone.

I agree with that. He did several things that indicated that he was lying and covering up - and that is one of them.

However, consider what other explanations there could be for that behavior. Off the top of my head I can think of several. One is that you don't want details of your personal life disseminated to the media and public. Another is that you have said some things about another coach, program, the NCAA, your bosses, etc. that you wouldn't want out there.

Here is what happens when journalists get a whiff of a scandal: 1000 of them descend on a campus, and because they are flawed human beings like the rest of us, their motives are not entirely pure. They want to be the snoop that found the smoking gun dirt that brings down a powerful figure. That's the kinda stuff that wins you the Pulitzer and gets you your dream gig. So, they start digging and they give your program a colonoscopy. What are the odds that they are going to find some crap - maybe even totally unrelated to the original allegations/suspicions? Very, very high.

I saw this with the Tattoo scandal at Ohio State. The reporting was hysterical, but when it all came down, 5 players sold their stuff in exchange for tats, their coach lied about his knowledge of it, and a couple other guys got paid a few hundred dollars more for work than they should have. Not exactly the crime of the century. The only serious thing in there is the coach lying. The rest of it is basic rule-breaking that occurs on every campus in every football program. The other 100 allegations were rumor, proven false, and just pure nonsense. When this happens at a university, you have to look at what the final conclusion is, not what is reported up to that conclusion. The conclusion will contain something close to the truth, but the totality of the reporting is fodder for conspiracy theorists.

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

SO much of your post here is wrong. It's difficult to know if you're purposefully being obtuse or simply blinded with bias. Again, will try to break it apart to illustrate the issues clearly.

let's start here:

But taking all that he is guilty of, none of those are absolute reasons to fire him. You only get there when you are a believer in the narrative against him.

convenient statement, because it's a catch all. I could just as easily state that "But taking all that he is guilty of these are absolute reasons to fire him. You only get there when you are a believe in the narrative for him."

It's non-substantive, devoid of facts.

Now let's dissect the issues with your comments:

What you don't do is give inaccurate details to people who check out details for a living. The point I would make here is, if Urban had used either of those responses, is there a controversy, an investigation, and a suspension? I think not.

First, you've glossed over the logic issues about the excuse he gave. He takes medication that affects his memory. To the point where he conceivably could not remember details about a crime he may know. So tell me, how would someone like that be managing a multi-million dollar business if true? So either it's true and he can't do his job, or it's a blatant lie to save his ass. There is no middle ground that you are trying to find by saying he communicated poorly. He stated a fact: I use medication that affects my memory. That's not poor communication, that's lying or a serious medical issue impairing his performance to the point where he couldn't do his job. Don't gloss over that.

Second, is there a controversy? yes. there is STILL a DV case which his wife knew about and he almost indefinitely knew about. Again, as I stated, I don't know if he broke a law, a contract clause or just ethically corrupt but it's one of them.

Mother's comments: there is no way to understand the bias there. This cannot be taken as a reputable source in any way. But this isn't the biggest issue with your statement here. The biggest issue was that you were using this and a statement that she wasn't "white as snow" and had "drinking and violence" issues herself. I asked you for evidence of these claims. You've given none. I also stated that I would like to see if they were before or after her relationship with Zach.

A MAJOR problem with your premise here is that according to you there has only been witnesses of Courtney hitting him. Do you seriously not understand that violence begets violence? Just because Courtney hit him doesn't mean that he isn't the abuser. And how do we know he is the abuser, well, because of the most significant piece of evidence that you have thrice failed to recognize and address. Urban's wife knew about the abuse. I'll quote from her own words, emphasis my own:

"I am so sick that you have to suffer this crap" (taken from 1rst text)
" I am with you. A lot of woman stay hoping it will get better. I don't blame you. But just want u to be safe. Do you have a restraining order? He scares me" (Taken from 2nd text)
"Ok. Please don't give up. The job isn't worth it. Your safety and your kids' health is everything. Please let me help you if I can." (Taken from 4th text)
"I'm praying for you!!!..... I know the truth." (taken from 5th text)

Now, the ONLY corroborating evidence I have seen is the FACT that Urban's wife knew about the abuse and believes Zach to be the abuser. In fact, she says she "knows the truth."

The absence of any substantive evidence to support your narrative speak louder than anything. Oppositely, I don't need a narrative. I just need facts. Urban's wife knew of the abuse and corroborated it. And it is almost without doubt that she discussed such a worrisome issue for her with her husband Urban about someone on his own staff. Add to the fact that Urban deleted numerous amounts of his own texts so that they would not be uncovered.

So try to support your claims with facts, not wild assumptions about schadenfreude.

OSU narrative about coaches getting fired:

They were fired for punching an opposing player and lying to the university and the NCAA. So, now we have this institution, who fired these two beloved men for inappropriate violence and lying, who is willing to whitewash violence, lying, and covering up to win football games today? Hmmm.

Correct, but in both cases the coaches were fired when there was indisputable evidence against them. Now I am not saying that either coach was dirty prior to the incident that fired them, but what I am saying is that claiming OSU would fire a coach based on these two examples is false logic. Both were caught red-handed. You, and I, don't know what would happen if Urban hadn't deleted his texts. Could be he would also be caught and subsequently fired. What we do know is this:

Courtney has photos and texts as evidence of DV.
Urban's wife corroborates the violence.
Urban claims he doesn't know.
Then he claims medication affects his memory.
He deletes numerous texts during this time.

I don't need to construct a narrative as you suggest. It was served up to me on a platter of factual information. So comments like this:

There are the pictures that we should weigh heavily, but not one human being has ever seen Zach hit her, but quite a few have been told by her that he hit her. OTOH, multiple people, including the mothers, say that the only DV they ever saw was her hitting him.

are both obtuse to the facts and highly ignorant about the nature of domestic violence in general.

If Urban did what the narrative says he did, then give me the authority and I will fire him myself. But he didn't.

He did. I just factually demonstrated it. If your argument is that his wife never told him about this issue then your bias is way too heavy.

Counselling:
you say you and your wife do "volunteer marital counselling." I also am a trained counselor, which is why it is extremely surprising to me that you keep asking for hard evidence. In these cases, which we call intimate partner violence, you should know that most of the time there is no evidence, but that doesn't mean abuse hasn't occurred. It also surprises me that you falsely state that there are only claims that Courtney hit Zach, and say unsubstantiated statements that she has "substance and violence" issues herself. When the only person I see corroborating this incident that would be in a position to know, is Urban's own wife. The problem is your approach. I am not sure who taught you to "assume both are lying" but that is flat out wrong. You shouldn't be assuming anything. You should take all claims as a possibility and asses those claims based on evidence, secondary corroboration, motivation, patterns of behavior and history.

Let's go back to your claim about Zach not hitting her and that her mother corroborated it. Actually what she said is:

He hit her because of self defense," Carano told McMurphy on Saturday. "It's not like he punched (her) or threw a punch at her. He was putting his hands against her throat and pushing her against a wall to get away. That's all I'm going to say.

As a counselor you should know that this is abuse. It doesn't matter if he was trying to get away. Now as a counselor we ask ourselves, what is the motivation of these incidents? If possible we try to understand some measure of causal relationship. In this case, Zach has a history of factual incidents of marital problems, which including cheating, substance abuse, etc. Courtney does not. Let's run through a causality script:

Were there ANY incidents prior to this history that shows Courtney abusing him? No, there is not.
Is there ANY relationship to an aggressive confrontation by Courtney to Zach? Yes, many.
Is there evidence that Courtney was hitting him prior to him "grabbing her throat and pushing her against a wall"? No, there is not.
Is there ANY evidence of Courtney hitting Zach at all? No, there is not.
Are there credible sources to corroborate Courtney hitting Zach? No, there is not.
Is there ANY evidence of Zach hitting Coutrney? Yes, there is.
Are there credible sources to corroborate Courtney's account of abuse by Zach? Yes, there is.

You have stated that there are accounts that she hit him. Prove they are credible.
You have stated that she has "substance and violence" issues. Prove they are unrelated to their marriage and not a result of.

Until you start providing facts that support your claims, I really don't know what you expect to achieve here.

Finally, in response to your other reply regarding reporters. Honestly, this total lunacy. You're complaining that reporters are trying to find information. That's like complaining that shit attracts flies. If there wasn't an incident worth reporting on they wouldn't be there. OSU is big institution and OSU football a blue blood, of course any incident of possible malfeasance will attract the flies. The reporters are not causing the problems. Don't even go there.

I'd appreciate it if you could add a changelog or track changes in your post. Thanks. ;^)

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

normally do, but I just fixed one word so didn't bother.

Can we make community guidelines that limit posts to under novel length?

LOL. When I get back to Fernley I will try to keep it to one or two lines (or 3 or 4) per point.

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

LoveVanOSU's response:

I know. When you go against the narrative, it's wrong – although it's hard to prove that without appealing to the narrative.

Some, not all, of the facts to support my conclusion are contained in my rant. You just chose to ignore them and declare my idea that you only get to the "fire Urban" conclusion solely on the narrative as invalid – but that conclusion is based on your belief in the narrative.

Urban used the excuse of medication? I don't know that. The investigative committee noted that medication may have been a factor in their report, but they did not say who was the source of that. Could have been a number of people other than Urban, but you throw that out there like it is gospel when you are actually just taking a fact and making an assumption off of it. This is what narratives do: mix assumptions, gossip, and facts altogether as facts.

There is still a DV case? I didn't know that. My understanding is that there has never been a charge, arrest, or prosecution of DV involving the Smith's. There is a case unresolved about a criminal trespass and violation of a RO.

So, let me get this straight. Neither you nor I know Courtney Smith or her mother, anything about them or their history, but you can declare that the mother isn't a reliable source and imply that Courtney is. That's special ability right there. Notice that I went out of my way to not declare the mother reliable or unreliable.

The evidence of Courtney's issues are contained within the police reports that are available on the internet and the journalist's stories who have looked at this aspect. Read them. I did.

Yes, Shelly Meyer is clearly trying to identify with, comfort, and encourage Courtney. Shelly is doing exactly what she should do in this situation: seek safety based on the pictures and what Courtney is saying. It is exactly what we would do/have done in similar situations.

In a conversation, context is everything. What we don't know is what did Shelly think when she heard both sides of the story, if she ever did. What would she say about these comments now? We don't know, but just on it's face, this is the strongest support for the narrative.

But Shelly did not corroborate DV. She wasn't there. What she corroborates is that the allegation was credible to her at the time given all that she knew, but you are stretching that to corroborate that there was DV.

I am trying to follow your logic. Two coaches were fired because there was indisputable evidence against them, but that doesn't mean that a present coach with disputable evidence shouldn't be fired as well. Apply that to your job and see if that logic works.

I am ignorant of DV and how it actually works, but I have dealt with DV in bad marriages for 20 years, have been trained in how to deal with it, and apparently have learned nothing from that experience. OK.

"Were there ANY incidents prior to this history that shows Courtney abusing him? No, there is not.
Is there evidence that Courtney was hitting him prior to him "grabbing her throat and pushing her against a wall"? No, there is not.
Is there ANY evidence of Courtney hitting Zach at all? No, there is not.
Are there credible sources to corroborate Courtney hitting Zach? No, there is not.
Is there ANY evidence of Zach hitting Coutrney? Yes, there is.
Are there credible sources to corroborate Courtney's account of abuse by Zach? Yes, there is."

Zach never accused Courtney of abuse, so why would there be any incidents that show her abusing him?

At least 3 people: mom, mom-in-law, and brother have publicly said that they have seen her hit him. That's evidence. Whether it is good evidence or not is up to the legal process, but you are just clearly wrong on this point.

There is evidence of Zach abusing Courtney, and it is based solely on the allegations and explanation of the pictures that she gives. If she had a little more – even one person to step up and support those allegations, that would help, but we have to take her word for it.

You have to explain "credible sources" and what you mean by "corroboration". I have a feeling you mean Shelley Meyer, and the problems with that are addressed above.

I don't have to prove anything. I'm not accusing the Smiths, Urban, or Ohio State of anything. I'm not saying that I know Courtney Smith is lying or telling the truth. You and the narrative lickers are the ones who are making accusations against a coach, some of the Smiths, and OSU so it's your burden to prove something – and while you can most surely do that among those true believers, I don't think the proof is found in that pudding.

At some point 1000 of these types of reporters are going to descend on Blacksburg. Everyone has to take their turn at some point. Then I want to see how you feel about their motives and quality of their "journalism".

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

And in the least surprising development of all time...

Ohio State officials decided against attempting to recover Urban's deleted text messages, despite it being "standard operating procedure" to use 3rd party mobile forensics labs to do just that in similar cases.

Black Swan, a Memphis-based digital forensics lab run by a former Alabama homeland security director, says it can extract that kind of information from mobile phones in less than 24 hours for around $2,000. "You can definitely tell when the settings were changed," said Scott Vowell, a Black Swan forensic engineer.

The Ohio State investigation was overseen by a working group led by Jo Ann Davidson, a former university trustee who is vice chair of the state gaming control board. It was completed in about two weeks—far less time than many management probes have taken—which enabled Mr. Meyer to serve his suspension before the heart of the Buckeyes' conference schedule. The team is 3-0 and ranked No. 4 in the country heading into Saturday's game against Tulane.

Jack Greiner, a Cincinnati-based lawyer who specializes in media law, says Ohio State's records-retention policy requires saving correspondence that isn't transitory—not including, for instance, a text message saying you'll be home late—for at least one year.

"A blanket practice of deleting texts violates the records-retention policy on its face, which therefore constitutes a violation of the [state] statute," Mr. Greiner said.

If you don't have access to the WSJ, search "ohio state deleted texts" in Incognito Mode and you should be able to access.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

Yeah...this "investigation" was pretty much a sham. Kyle Bailey said on Charlotte radio yesterday that this investigation is out of the NCAA's jurisdiction...not exactly sure how...

Two different writers reporting/opinion. I think it sets this up the way it is: one or the other makes sense, and you believe one or the other, based primarily on your worldview or sports fan affiliation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BY JEFF SNOOK
COLUMBUS -- Two members of the Ohio State University Board of Trustees have told me over the past week they believed Urban Meyer's suspension "was not warranted according to the facts" that resulted from the university's six-member panel which investigated whether the head coach had covered up alleged domestic violence by former assistant coach Zach Smith.

The "majority" of the trustees disagreed with President Michael Drake's final decision to suspend Meyer three games and athletic director Gene Smith 17 days and many were disappointed by Drake's performance "for not being complete and clear" at the ensuing press conference the night of Aug. 22, one trustee said.
Neither trustee wanted to be identified and would speak only on the condition of complete anonymity.

The OSU Board of Trustees consists of 15 members, two students (one graduate and one undergraduate) and three charter ("out of state") members (who do not vote on issues). Most are appointed by the Ohio governor.
The trustees who spoke outlined the process of how the matter proceeded following a two-week investigation, which officially began on Aug. 4.

Meyer had been placed on paid-administrative leave by the university on July 30 on the eve of Ohio State's summer camp, pending the outcome of the investigation into whether he covered up an alleged 2015 case of domestic violence involving Zach Smith and his ex-wife Courtney Smith.

Attorneys hired by Ohio State interviewed 40 witnesses, some up to three times, and collected 60,000 documents, emails and text messages, at a reported cost of $500,000, during the investigation, which concluded Aug. 19. The board of trustees met for the first time about the issue the following day.

"We met that Monday morning for about four hours, but it was not considered a public meeting ... there was no discussion," one trustee explained. "We were appraised of the situation and the material of the investigation was reviewed with us. The attorneys told us, 'This is our investigation; this is what we have found.'"

The trustees were to reconvene for a scheduled meeting two days later, Aug. 22 at 9 a.m. to discuss the issue, make a recommendation to Drake of possible punishment for Meyer and Gene Smith – if any --, as well.
That day the trustees arrived for the 9 a.m. meeting in a large conference room at the Longaberger Alumni House on Olentangy River Road, believing the matter of Meyer's fate would be resolved "in half a day at the most," as one trustee put it.

Meyer also arrived at the building early on his own accord, in case he was needed for testimony, a source said. The source told me he expected to be vindicated and return across the street to the Woody Hayes Athletic Center, "change from his suit and tie into his coaching clothes that afternoon."

However, Meyer never appeared in front of the board, instead spending the day waiting in a separate room with his attorneys.

"When we arrived, we were given hard copies of the investigation," one trustee said. "The structure was this: We had heard the evidence. We reviewed it all. The president started off and gave his summary and how he felt. We then each could have the chance to speak our mind, one-by-one, and then we would converse back and forth. We would discuss terms and how we felt, what we believed ... what should be done, but the final decision would be made by Dr. Drake."

Throughout the day, Drake would leave the room at times to handle other university business but would return as the board held official discussions on the matter.

Of the evidence gathered from the report, one trustee said, "It was clear to us that there was no substantiated domestic abuse and there was no coverup of such. The other issue we looked hard at was whether there was any violation of Title IX. There was not. And we were concerned with the reporting chain (between Meyer, Gene Smith and the school's athletic directors related to Title IX). The reporting chain may not have been handled exactly properly, but it had the same effect. The information originally came from the (Powell) police to the athletic director, who reported to the coach. Normally, it's the other way around, so there was no need for the coach to report to the athletic director in this case. That was just common sense."

After reading details of the report, both trustees said that all trustees agreed on one key issue: "This case was not about an abused woman."

"This was all about the way (Meyer) mismanaged an employee, an assistant coach," one trustee said. "(Smith) was late to practice often. He acted up on recruiting trips. He had credit-card problems. He did other things that made him a poor representative of the university. It was easy to determine that Coach Meyer should have had a firmer grasp of this employee."

Another said, "It was obvious Zach Smith had problems, serious issues. Coach Meyer should have known about it and probably fired him (sooner than the July 23 termination Smith was given)."

The bottom line, one trustee added, "That mismanagement didn't come to the level of a firing offense. I felt his punishment had already been served (in Meyer's 23 days of being placed on paid-administrative leave). Did he deserve to be fired? Absolutely not. Did he deserve a suspension? I certainly did not feel that way and I was not alone by any means."

Asked about the number of trustees who felt Meyer deserved no further discipline, one trustee said, "I am not going there and counting heads. Some people in the room didn't say much. They just listened. It was not unanimous, or near-unanimous, so saying that would not be accurate."

When asked if "a majority" for those believing Meyer deserved no further punishment would be an accurate term, the trustee answered, "Yes."

In the end, why did it take almost 12 hours to reach a decision?

The reason for the impasse and duration of the meeting was simple: While the "majority" of the board wanted one outcome; Drake wanted another. And hour after hour, neither faction would budge and opinions didn't change. The board could not change Drake's mind about issuing suspensions. In turn, Drake had trouble convincing the board collectively that either Meyer or Gene Smith deserved one, especially without pay.
"It was exhausting, we were all dead tired," one said. "It was nerve-wracking, too."

In the end, around 9 p.m., it became obvious to all that the president had won the battle. He would announce a three-game suspension for Meyer and a 17-day suspension for Gene Smith, to be served Aug. 31-Sept. 16, at a press conference set for 9:45 p.m.

(Meyer missed wins over Oregon State, Rutgers and TCU and will return to the sideline Saturday at 3:30 p.m. at Ohio Stadium against Tulane).

"Ultimately, it's the president's decision and he has that right to make it," one trustee said. "We respect that. The majority – but not all -- just disagreed with it."

When everyone left the conference room that night the mood "was very somber," one trustee said.
Before they left, the trustees made it known to Drake to make it clear during the press conference that Meyer was being suspended "because of his mismanagement" of Zach Smith and not for covering up alleged domestic violence.

But what followed, televised nationally on ESPN2 and in front of more than 300 media members, as Drake announced the penalties for both Meyer and Gene Smith "was not handled correctly," one trustee claimed.
In the ensuing days, following national media reports, several trustees were "largely disgusted at the fallout and the perception that Urban Meyer was suspended for covering up domestic abuse. That couldn't have been further from the truth and we made that clear when we left the room that night. We wanted it portrayed accurately (by Drake). It was not. It reflected poorly on the university. It damaged the university's credibility."
One added, "It left me sick to my stomach."

Regarding Jeffrey Wadsworth, the trustee who resigned the following week, saying Meyer's punishment was not harsh enough, he had left the Aug. 22 meeting "three hours into it because he was disgusted" since other trustees didn't feel "as hard-core as he did" about Meyer's possible punishment.

"He made it obvious how he felt and he was offended nobody felt the same way," one trustee said. "So he stood up and left."

When Wadsworth announced his resignation publicly to the New York Times, one trustee said, "He acted like a baby who didn't get his way. His actions were completely self-serving and it was a crappy thing to do."

On why neither trustee wanted to be identified in this story, one stated, "The board of trustees is supposed to handle its business just like the phrase, 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.'"

The other said, "I believe the truth needs to come out, one way or another. Otherwise, why were we involved at all if our thoughts didn't matter?"

One trustee also said that the university may not release any more details of its report, More than three weeks ago, the university released 15 documents, mostly background information such as Zach Smith's contract, and Urban Meyer's code of conduct for assistant coaches. Ohio State's communications office has not stated if more information will be released.

"If they determine this was strictly a personnel issue, I don't think they feel they have to release it under (Ohio's Sunshine Law)," the trustee said. "And they may do just that. This may be over, as far as the university is concerned."
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Nancy Armour, USA TODAY

All the slogans and fancy posters touting respect for women mean nothing unless you actually believe and support women.

When we say we've been harassed. When we say we've been sexually assaulted. When we say we've been physically abused.

This is what Urban Meyer has gotten wrong from the start and, judging by his news conference Monday and many other attempts at spin the last two days, still doesn't get.

When someone says they were robbed or sideswiped, society's inclination is not to automatically discredit them. To ask if they'd left a window open or wonder why they didn't park closer to the curb. To require irrefutable proof of being victimized and even then still raise a questioning eyebrow.

Yet that's the way too many people still respond when women say they've been abused or assaulted or harassed.
And it's the way Meyer continues to respond to Courtney Smith.

It's clear that, even now, Meyer doesn't believe Courtney Smith. He has referenced her troubled marriage, spoken of his sorrow at what she and her children have gone through, said repeatedly that he was only trying to help ensure former receivers coach Zach Smith could still support his family "the way a man should."

Not once, and he was given numerous opportunities Monday to do so, has he said he believes Courtney Smith was a victim of domestic violence.

Not once has Meyer apologized for letting Zach Smith's excuses outweigh the arrest report by the Gainesville police in 2009. Not once has he acknowledged there are myriad reasons why women either don't report or decline to press charges, being pregnant or having children with their abuser among them.

Meyer didn't do any of this because he doesn't believe Courtney Smith. And that doubt, that disbelief, that suspicion that there has to be more to the story than what she said means Meyer doesn't respect Courtney Smith.

"All I can go by is what I was told by law enforcement, and that was that there was no domestic violence," Meyer said.

Except there was, back in 2009.

By continuing to deny that Gainesville PD report, Meyer continues to discredit Courtney Smith and open the door for everyone else to do so, too. That's not respect. That's the exact opposite of it.

Meyer's lies at Big Ten Media Day – call them what they were because they most definitely were not a "misstatement" – and his sudden curiosity about how long text messages would be retained on his cell phone are troubling enough. This is a man whose sole priority is self-preservation, not doing the right thing or even being a good role model for the young men with whom he's been entrusted.

Worse is that, despite what he claims, no one should have any confidence that Meyer would do anything different if presented with a similar scenario now. His mindset about marriage and domestic violence and even women is stuck in the 1950s, and he has shown no interest in updating it.

Had Meyer done even the most basic research on domestic violence, he would understand why Courtney Smith dropped charges against her husband in 2009. Why she stayed with him. Why their relationship would have seemed so volatile to outsiders. Why all of Zach Smith's other "red flags" are part and parcel of what Courtney Smith alleged all those years ago.

Had Meyer truly been shaken by this incident, as he professes, he would not have waited a month before uttering Courtney Smith's name or let several days pass after he was suspended before apologizing to her. He chalks this up to exhaustion and emotion, but I can assure you the trauma Courtney Smith endured is worse than anything Meyer did during Ohio State's investigation and his subsequent suspension.

And if he was sincere about not making a similar mistake in the future, about respecting Courtney Smith, he would have reached out to her by now so he could understand how he could have gotten it so horribly wrong.
But he didn't do that. Didn't do any of that. Because he doesn't believe Courtney Smith, and he sure doesn't respect her.

Meyer said several times Monday that he needs to ask more questions if confronted with a situation like this again. Yet he also stubbornly clung to his insistence that this wasn't about domestic violence but rather a matter of a troubled employee who Meyer went too far in trying to help.

He cannot — will not — suspend his experience and privilege long enough to consider any other scenario. That's not respect, that's ego and arrogance.

Telling your players to respect women and making it one of your "core values" is all well and good. But those are just words.

It's how you treat women when they are most vulnerable that shows whether you really do respect them or not, and Meyer continues to fail that test. Instead of respecting women, he continues to fail them.

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(Q for Nancy Armour: As a man who wants to respect and support women, if a woman makes an allegation against another woman, what do I do then? Lol. Such is the stupidity you run into when you take her logic and start applying it. It is what happens in a post-truth world.)

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

Please link both articles and only copy a few sentences that summarize. It ain't kosher to copy and paste articles without giving the author their precious clicks and ad revenue.

It's also against the Community Guidelines:

Don't copy and paste entire articles into posts and comments. Limit it to the most relevant paragraph(s). Include a link to the original source so people can read the entire article. Wrap pasted text inside

tags using the quote button.

Emphasis added by me.

I'm on my phone so I didn't want to try to format and make the community guidelines look pretty. Thanks for the backup.

Edit: It is also why I downvoted it, which I will change once he fixes the massive double article, no link fiasco above. I also have not read it because it just looks ridiculous on my phone.

I hear you. Thanks.

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

You know, you can edit your posts. ;^)

The Poster Formerly Known As The Spirit Of Bernard Basham

After reading details of the report, both trustees said that all trustees agreed on one key issue: "This case was not about an abused woman."

Whichever trustee said this is A) a POS B) the real reason he didn't want Urban or Smith held accountable because he doesn't view the domestic violence as a University Problem.

Wet stuff on the red stuff.

Join us in the Key Players Club

My scroll wheel just broke.

"What kind of person would throw away a perfectly good dog?"

sounds to me like they're trying to divert attention from the real issue here and make it seem more like urban is a 'flawed character who just cared to much' which is absolute bullocks. A woman was abused, and Zach Smith has more than enough history and evidence to prove this, the Ohio State board didn't do enough to answer whether or not urban knew and how much he knew which to me claims that they didn't even want to know. If they had done their homework, a lot of questions could have been answered. That in itself says to me "we dont want to know whats going on here, no matter the issue and just want good football". It also says they don't want to investigate the matter in fear of what other details might come out. I really hope VT never stoops this low because that shit would make me sick to my stomach.

Taylor, looking desperately throws it deep..HAS A MAN OPEN DANNY COALE WITH A CATCH ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FIVE!!!!....hes still open

The worst part is, to the people who they have to answer to, they did the right thing. Ohio State donors and alumni don't want this information investigated because they don't want to know the truth. Football success trumps all, and it doesn't matter how many lives need to be steamrolled to accomplish that fact.

The second that Ohio St named members of their own Board as lead investigators, the result of the investigation was already determined. It was all about how to steer it to achieve that end means.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

Lol. Such is the stupidity you run into when you take her logic and start applying it.

Irony

Since Nancy Armour isn't going to hear or answer my question, could anyone who agrees with her thinking take a stab at it?

Behind an Amish buggy going up a long, curvy hill

I appreciate all the support, and I appreciate all the hate I am getting. I will continue to work as hard as I can to be the best I can be and bring this team a championship. Go Hokies 🐔 - Josh Jackson

Or, we can address the fact that the knee jerk reaction to pretty much every case involving a woman accusing a man involved with college football or basketball (it goes way, way beyond that, but lets stick to this tiny subset for this) is immediately accused of being a fraud, and her character called into question. Literally every time.

And you know what, its not just women, its men too. Look at Penn St. Its any time someone accuses someone in power of being an abuser, the masses jump immediately into victim blaming and victim shaming. And when that doesn't work, the backup is to resort to every level of Whataboutism possible to muddy the waters. Kind of like what you're doing now.

"Some days you’re a horse and some days you’re a horse’s ass. I’ve been a horse’s ass for a little while." - Roy Halladay

I can certainly understand OSU fans having a certain opinion on this. If you haven't figured it out yet though, I don't think many outside the OSU community share that opinion.

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish coming to another team's online community and sharing your point of view. I'm not going to be brought into a debate with you on this either. I'm just hear to say you are probably best off letting this go on here.

LancerHokie, here's your thread deserving of a please-no-more rant....

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.