Keshawn King limited play time vs ODU

Fuente just said in the postgame press conference that King wasn't hurt at all. He said he pulled him because he was worried about his ball security... (no this is unfortunately not a joke). For those of you wondering why he was concerned about ball handling when King didn't have a single fumble? I have no fucking idea. And yet he keeps Willis & McClease in the game. This BS is getting real old real fast

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Come on people...

Provide a clear, sensible and descriptive title for your post. "Tyrod Taylor..." is not a clear descriptive title. "Tyrod Taylor to Play Entire Preseason Game" is.

EDIT: Thank you!

Is it basketball season yet?

Sorry. Was just pissed & wanted to post something quickly. Made the title less vague

This deserves it's own thread?

Also, McClease had some decent success in this game. That last fumble was unfortunate, but shit happens.

Yes, it deserves it's own thread, because it CONTINUES TO HAPPEN. And as long as it continues to happen, it will continue to be talked about/criticized/addressed.

McClease had a whopping 64 yards on 20 carries and one fumble. That's a very average game IMO. But I just don't see why this was a reason to pull King, because he ALMOST fumbled. Very hypocritical

I don't know for sure, but I have to think Fuente is intentionally limiting King. He's a TF with a TF body. That kid isn't going to be able to take an entire season of getting crushed behind and around his inept OL.

Is it basketball season yet?

I agree & wouldnt have much of a problem if he had said that. But if that's his reasoning he should have said that instead of putting the dude on blast in public when he didn't even turn the ball over.

I must have missed something, what did he say?

Is it basketball season yet?


But are you 100% positive that you understand the thinking behind it? Maybe they saw something that isn't being considered in this post.

I don't understand why some players are benched for ball security and others aren't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Perfectly succinct summation.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

That should have been the post. Makes a lot more sense. Maybe put some numbers behind it.

Could well be that Fuente thinks RBs only have one job: ball security. And he wants to instill that in his younger backs so they're thinking about it. Could be that he thinks the more experienced backs are securing the ball better, even if the occasional fumble happens. Could be that he saw something about the way King was carrying the ball that he didn't like.

I'm just throwing out some possible explanations. There are probably others. Someone could ask Fuente.

The problem I see in a post like this is that it begs people to make a lot of assumptions. Particularly if it isn't worded in a fairly nuanced way.

Sounds like you just made a lot of assumptions ?
Maybe the numbers behind it are Ryan Willis has 5 turnovers, McClease has 1, Grimz dropped a punt last week, yet they stay in. Other players have been consistently benched including King (without an actual fumble). Evidence suggests it's fair to question that explanation as the logic doesn't line up

I didn't make ANY assumptions.

I just offered some possible explanations, and suggested that people ask Fuente.

You're ignoring reality. You saw the tweet. Here's what Bitter quoted Fuente as saying: "He's got to get up with the ball in his hands to continue to get carries,"

This is a quote from my post:

Could well be that Fuente thinks RBs only have one job: ball security. And he wants to instill that in his younger backs so they're thinking about it.

I don't know how you get "ignoring reality" out of that, but we'll just have to disagree on that.

King has been letting go of the ball when he's tackled. Did it last week. Did it again this week.

Per Fu, "Keshawn is fine. He's got to get up with the ball in his hands to continue to get carries."

I'd bet they told him to stop doing that and then it happened again today. Relying on the replay to save you from a bad call is not the best bet.

FWIW, while there was little time left, neither Willis nor McClease played after they fumbled.

That would seem to be a reasonable explanation.

Yeah, I checked the box score and saw that Tyler Matheny had our last RB carry.

Tyler Matheny at that. Is our RB corps really that thin, or were Fuente and Cornelsen saving our actual RBs for Christmas?

No, I *don't* want to go to the SEC. Why do you ask?

We don't love dem Hoos.

It was Caleb Steward.

Come on ya'll - be smarter and do just half a second of work.

I relied on ESPN's play-by-play. I guess that's what I get for only doing a half second of work.

No, I *don't* want to go to the SEC. Why do you ask?

We don't love dem Hoos.

Willis was being checked out by the training staff for a concussion

Recruit Prosim

On that note, how did that hit, right in front of the ref not draw a flag?

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

And even if the on the field guy missed it, how did the replay official not see it? I though targeting could be called from the booth

It can. They weren't calling anything against ODU in the second half.

And this is exactly where we need Fuente to show some fire. It blows my mind that he wasn't going ballistic on the sideline that it wasn't even looked at.


Nardouchy would have been all over that one, with his headset on the ground.

Haha I'm definitely not advocating for that! I just think that even Beamer, Saban, or "insert calm coach here" would be giving the refs an earful about not even looking at a play that injured the most important player on their team.

I agree. I just don't know if Fuente saw the same angle I saw on TV. The refs didn't seem to.

I typically defend Fuente, but you're absolutely right. Instead, he was yelling at Willis to go down next time.

I couldn't believe that the commentators didn't even mention it.

Now finish up them taters; I'm gonna go fondle my sweaters.

Incorrect - Fuente was telling him to go down so they could get a sub for him.

Fuente clarified this in the interview with Burnopp as well as with the media. Dalton Keene did not go down earlier in the game - he went off the field quietly, no one knew he wasn't out there, and when we ran someone out there got the illegal substitution penalty.

I imagine the replay official was looking forward on the tape to where the fumble occurred, not back to the hit that caused it. Still poor officiating. You would think they would check for that, especially when the player is obviously woozy.

Fuente is just limiting Kings carrys early on because we dont need him right now vs the likes of odu, furman, & RI. Saving him for miami, and keeping him healthy and limiting miami's film on him.

I listened to the post game, and I really didn't get that from what he said. If that is the exact reason for not playing King, then I can't express my disappointment in Fuente strongly enough.

Is it basketball season yet?

I was talking about the one drive where the offensive line held and he was particularly effective. Turns out football is a team sport, but he got it done on that drive.

Fuente said "ball security", he didn't say it was because he "almost fumbled".

Maybe there's more to that coaching job than some people realize.

McClease had 42 yards on 19 carries and one long run. I also wondered about King missing the entire second half (maybe one play). King looked to be getting more consistent yardage in the first half. McClease lost yardage for every positive play in the first half.

I think it's worth writing a post over.

I'd be interested to hear your perspective, then.

Are you the arbiter for all posts now? Or just the ones that disagree with fuente?

Recruit Prosim

The last fumble is what you get when you stubbornly run when the defense has 8 in the box. These players need to be allowed to play in the offense as if the score is 0-0. Hooker should have the option to throw against a stacked box. It's not like we were blowing ODU out of the water. We were stupid to run the ball against that look and we paid for it.

If a tree falls in Scott Stadium does it make a sound?

It was stupid to run the ball on 1st and 10 in our own territory late in the 4th, up by 14, when we had just picked up a 1st down after 3 runs, and ODU had started burning their timeouts?

That's not some outrageous play calling gaffe. This exact strategy happens dozens of times every single week and the vast majority of the time, the RB doesn't fumble.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

Yes, it's stupid to run the ball when literally everyone in the world knows that you're going to run. I wish we could do that but it's clear we can't. It's stupid to do something you know that you can't do. I want an offense that will "take what the defense gives you" regardless of the situation. If the defense is stacking the box, audible to a screen. It makes me sad that our offense will stubbornly run into a brick wall when they have utterly failed to demonstrate the ability to do so successfully on even a semi regular basis

If a tree falls in Scott Stadium does it make a sound?

He had an "almost" fumble. Which, if you're a RB is enough to get you pulled. If you're a QB, you have to turn the ball over somewhere north of 4 times to get pulled over ball security concerns.

*But we don't know the actual number, because 4 is as high as we've gotten.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

I thought Willis had a decent game today.

There was that one fumble, after a helmet-to-helmet hit, where he landed on top of a defensive player who jerked the ball out. Ball security is key, but that qualifies for some kind of asterisk.

My comment wasn't an indictment of Willis' play. My comment was an indictment of Fuente's bullshit, ball security double standard.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

This is the thing that really hit home for me. Fuente's coaching and program management style doesn't jive with a double standard.

And yet there definitely seems to be one.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Exactly. It's pretty apparent there is one & that's mainly what I'm wondering about/trying to get across. It's just very frustrating to me & I'm sure for King as well

It isn't just King. Since Fuente got here he has had a hair trigger when it comes to pulling a RB that fumbles. If you ask me, that's one of the shittiest things you can do as a coach. It shows a complete lack of trust in your guys. Everyone makes mistakes. Quickest way to get over it is get right back out there. Absolutely no reason to pull a guy for the entire game for one fumble. Fuente has done it since he got here and isn't stopping anytime soon.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Exactly. Pissed off McMillian by doing it & also has pulled McClease in the past for the same reason. The only reason I'm extra pissed about what happened today is King didn't fumble. Just mind blowing to me. I know I'm ranting but this just makes absolutely no sense

King doesn't fumble = gets pulled. McClease fumbles = stays in.


We put the K in Kwality

He didn't stay in...

Yeah. I thought it was McClease for the last carries. Still doesn't make sense. King "almost" fumbles and sits the rest of the game (although I hear I came back in for 1 play). By CJF's logic, McClease should sit for the next 6 quarters (but if he throws INTs they don't count).

We put the K in Kwality

Do you give every athlete the same size shoes? Things don't always have to be equal to be fair. Coaching isn't's an art. I think that's a hard one for those on the outside looking in to understand - but great coaches, and the athletes that train hard and work hard, understand the difference between fair and equal.


How you motivate and teach others to effect the desired outcome is one thing. That will differ from person to person, because each person is unique.

The standards that you apply to them are a different animal though. Those should be uniform across the board.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Not gonna argue that. The question is ....when you remove someone from the game is that the direct result of a "standard" or is it more of a decision based on the needs and performance of a unique individual. In this case, one individual is a true freshman....the other has a few years of college play under his belt. We also don't know about coaching conversations that take place every day at practice. I'd argue this isn't a 100% "standard" consequence to a specific behavior. King was told "hold onto the ball even after the whistle...don't let go at the end of the play". This may be an important skill he was working on at practice. McClease....his important skill maybe was something else. Two different athletes.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to King, but it's a standard that I don't believe has been applied evenly across the board. Which has been my argument.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Having a fumble isn't the only ball security concern.

Carrying the ball correctly in traffic, the ability to handle option exchanges with the QB and covering up when tackled all matter.

This comment and calling it BS means you didn't play football. They are protecting the team and a young player.

So because I think our coach is hypocritical means I never played football? Lol okay buddy. All I'm saying is, they can coach him up on the sideline without completely pulling him from the game for NOT EVEN TURNING THE BALL OVER

If a basketball player was dribbling the ball high and putting the ball at risk and hadn't turned it over yet, but you felt the risk was high would you take him out?

Do you know what they have been working on in practice? If you leave him in and he fumbles twice and costs us big time does that help ? A coach makes judgement calls not just after you feel the pain, but before you do based on how players are playing.

And yes you focused on the result only and just start ranting. Don't you think there is probably more to it? Always is

The more you respond the more I am convinced you just started watching this season.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

Great response. I have watched every game since the 80's. If you don't like my opinion - have one as everyone is entitled to their point of view in how to handle the program. If you resort to discrediting my opinion based on the fact you simply disagree, then it appears there isn't anything constructive to discuss.

I'm not discrediting your opinion because I disagree. I am discrediting your opinion because, in this particular subthread, all of your responses seem to be based off of the past two games. Then, you ask if there is something else going on... Well, the rest of this thread clearly indicates that there is and has been more going on.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

You are making assumptions then. I have read the threads and it is mainly speculative. My comments are on two games and this is about King and ball security. He has been on the team for two games - focus on now. I have some connections to the program and also know what I see. This isn't that big of a deal - the panic is ridiculous. King let go of the ball as he hit the ground twice today - one was very close to a fumble. This isn't a knock - just the facts, King is a star in the making, but coaching him, managing things is a part of it. Let's see how he handles it.

I am focused on the present and what I know. I'm not going to speculate based on someone trying to connect supposition to what they perceive us the lack of results or inconsistent player management. McClease has been benched several times during his career for the same thing. King got back in later in the game, so the fact he was on the bench And upset he isn't in for a series or two means the coach is stupid?

From what I see the team is engaged, rooting for each other, playing hard and we will have to see how the improvement does or doesn't come over the rest of the season. That's the foundation. Once that is solid, you have to build, improve and keep building. Let's see how that goes.

I find it puzzling that you would say that I am making assumptions when I made a joke about you only starting to watch this season and then admit that your comments were only about King and the past two games. Yes, my joke made an assumption. You got me. Did you actually seriously think I believed you had only started watching VT football this season. It was a joke... based on the very fact that you have only concentrated on the past two games when ComboHokie has been making the same argument that I have, that this is a weird trend. A trend the Fuente tends to enforce only when he feels like it.

You keep talking about speculation, but it isn't speculation to say that Fuente sometimes pulls players who mishandle the ball and then doesn't pull other players who do the same thing. That's called observation.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

A joke. Right...

Really? We're still harping on this?

JFC, yes, a joke. A joke that illustrated, what Mickelmarcus himself later admitted, that his responses were based off of the two games this season when myself and others were arguing that it was a larger trend that has been going on since Fuente took the helm.

Was the joke at his expense? Yes. Was it anything that I ever thought would cause him or anyone else to get bent out of shape? Um...that's a big NO.

FFS. I didn't personally attack the guy or slap his momma.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD


Glad we won and he's not hurt. So good news all around. We will need him against tougher opponents.

I think feeding 20 carries a game to McClease is setting us up for failure. He isnt an everydown back and King has show more burst on most of his runs. I think Fuente needs to give McClease 10 carries a game max and give the ball to our playmakers (grimsley, Turner, Robinson, king, etc.)

But can King provide the same blitz pickup that McClease did to keep Willis upright? I imagine McClease has the edge here. And given how much we pass the ball, McClease is going to be in the game a lot.

I don't disagree with you, just making a valid counterpoint.

During his postgame interview, Bud mentioned inconsistent practices this week.

I wonder if Fuente's comment and King's lack of PT was more of a statement about this week's practices?

Also, do you think there's anyway possible the staff is contemplating a redshirt for King? (Keeping him to the 4 game limit)

Interesting comment.

If that were the case, then it partly depends on how much he differentiates the offense, and how badly they need him.

4 game limit. Not a 4 carry limit.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

I think that was a separate thought.

But nice quip.

I know, but I am a whore for those lulz.

If you play it, they will win.

"How the ass pocket will be used, I do not know. Alls I know is, the ass pocket will be used." -The BoD

This post is the stupidest shit I'll probs read all day.

Thanks for contributing so eloquently to this conversation. Glad you can read

clearly you're contributing calmly and not just raging.

*second* stupidest shit...

Okay, motherfucker, you're not getting away with this again.

There is a perfectly valid point here, and shitting on it on it because you don't like it helps nobody. If you disagree, say why. Otherwise this shit gets us nowhere.

21st century QBs Undefeated vs UVA:
MV7, MV5, LT3, Josh Jackson, Jerod Evans, Michael Brewer, Tyrod Taylor, Sean Glennon, and Grant Noel. That's right, UVA. You couldn't beat Grant Noel.

Listen you stupid asswipe. This isn't a legit post at all. If you think you and OP have all the information and better inside than what Fuente has then maybe you should be the HC. If no, shut your stupid ass down and let the man who has decades more experience than you do his job. You and other arm chair QBs stent helping at all. So no, this post is a waste of everyone's time.

Both of you should walk away for the evening. Name-calling is a bad look and against CG

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

My man you're cruising for a trip to the penalty box, leg count be damned.

The Orange and Maroon you see, that's fighting on to victory.

I can't help but laugh at the idea that grown men are saying these things to one another on the internet lol.

Yeah, I thought this was hilarious and assumed they were both laughing at their keyboards while typing

Yeah this is pretty meta and I'm enjoying the heck outta seeing them through Zima colored glasses

Plaid wahoo colors.....first time seeing this and there's not one, but three.....glorious....


If you don't want to recruit clowns, don't run a clown show.

"I want to punch people from UVA right in the neck." - Colin Cowherd

To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
@BuryHokie #ThanksFrank

Imagine Josh Jackson quarterbacking this team, with, let's say, Shai McKenzie or last year with McMillan.

Well those are two very different hypotheticals, if we assume Shai is healthy

King didn't look too pleased on the bench in the 2nd half. He was mostly sitting by himself and didn't really cheer when the team was getting up for a big play or celebrating after one. Not that there were many.

I mean do you blame him? If I'm King I'm not only pissed I got taken out but also pissed that my HC just told everyone it was for "ball security" when I didn't even have a damn turnover & other people who are turning it over stay in. Not a good look IMO

Not at all. I wanted him in the game too. It was about midway through the 4th when I realized he hadn't been in the game at all in the 2nd half so I scanned the sideline to see if he was injured. Happy he is not hurt and really hope he doesnt check out on Fuente.

who stayed in?

Sucks to hear but I'm honestly just happy we didn't him 20 times against an opponent like ODU. It's pretty obvious to everyone King is going to be a stud but he's 182 pounds, we need to keep him healthy.

I can see why people enter the transfer portal

I'm fully confident that as long as Fuente is here, we will be among the leaders in the Transfer Portal every year.

Belichick personality with Eric Mangini results.

just fire Fuente, like seriously wtf

Looking forward to King entering the portal and the defense squad claiming "He wasn't an important piece" this summer

The big thing I don't understand with Fuente leaving Willis in is that Fuente has been very open about his displeasure with Willis playing hero ball in the past. Since Willis took over the starting job, Fuente has constantly said in interviews that Willis does way too much. Does this mean that Hooker is really that incapable of running the offense?

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

I hope this isn't true, but the short answer is yes he isn't as good right now based on practice evaluation.

It isn't really close with Willis vs Hooker. This doesn't mean that Hooker won't eventually get there. He clearly has upside and is working at it.

I have heard that if Braxton was eligible they would have a more serious decision as 1 vs 2. Braxton brings legit athleticism, read option is a strength and apparently he has improved his passing game since his freshman year film. I expect him to seriously challenge for the job next year.

As a note, was there ever a decision on his (Braxton's) appeal? (I'm aware of the initial no decision)

Ugh. It sucks how Hendon and QP we're both 4 star products and aren't ready. I get that not every 4 star quarterback is ready to play immediately. Bryan Randall wasn't. Marcus Vick wasn't. But Fuente is supposedly a quarterback guru, and he can't trust either more than Willis who hands out turnovers like it's a cheap Italian restaurant. I hope Burmeister is the real deal. I'm not sure if there has been a decision in regards to his appeal. I doubt it is approved anyway. The NCAA seems to not like us.

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

Yeah, I feel like I am traumatized every time I read "NCAA" now. I will never get over the Hoffman deal.

How about this for some actual discussion?

Offensive line today - notes:
Nester played majority of snaps at RG.
Hudson played a bunch of at center.
Tenuta played at 95 on a jumbo package that didn't work on goal line.
Pass pro was pretty decent.
Run-blocking especially in the middle left a lot to be desired to say the least.
At one point we had 3 freshman on line playing with Silas and Christian.

I thought we showed what you would expect with that much youth. Tremendous physical talent, inconsistent zone blocking on read option game (I got the sense it was more mental tying up the physical) and we are trying different groupings to see what we can get.

My take is that this is an area to really watch development as the year goes along. The early PT will help us. I'm long-term bullish on the O line, but the question is do the develop in season or do they need another year to come into their own?

See, I thought the offensive line was going to be the strength of this offense along with the receivers. I thought that even if the running backs were average, the line could at least get enough of a push to where our running backs would at least have an easy hole to run through. That hasn't been the case so far. The run blocking has left a lot to be desired, and they have a few too many breakdowns on passing plays. I'm hopeful they can fix it considering they're not too much different personnel-wise from last season, but it just concerns me how they've seemed to take a step back.

Marshall University student.
Virginia Tech fanatic.

I agree with you on the results, but they are pretty different. The personnel groupings today were very different outside of Darrisaw and sometimes smith or Dsanzi depending on where they played.

No Hoffman hurts and with HOyt out you are basically on 3rd string center. TJ didn't played great last week, but was first string and was on the injury report this week. Lots of shuffling going on for good reasons.

For much of the game it was only freshman and sophomore on the O line - all great prospects.

We need some games to find consistency and play fast. I do think this is an area you will see real improvement. I think it is the future strength of the team, but how far in the future. They will improve.

I was pleased that so many guys got time on the offensive and defensive lines. That could pay big dividends in the future. There is a lot of young talent there and experience is the best teacher. That said, the offensive line needs to figure out how to use all that bulk in the run game. Again, pass pro wasn't bad but we couldn't run at all. It appeared that at least 3 Dlinemen for ODU were in our backfield on just about every run play. It was frustrating and even strange. It must be fixed.

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising..." - KP

You're putting entirely too much stock in recruiting rankings. A former 4* QB was literally riding the pine as the backup for ODU yesterday. Dwayne Lawson was a 4* QB and good luck finding where he's playing these days. Tathan transferred to Miami, got beat out by a freshman, and is trying to make it as a WR now. So yeah, I feel pretty confident saying there are dozens are 4* busts every single year.

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

What if it's rephrased to "the QBs behind Willis." I think the recruiting stars were to add emphasis, but the point remains.

Willis can throw to whatever guy in a helmet he chooses, and it's ok. fumbles, or thinks about fumbling, and Fuente jerks the chain. Willis gives the best chance to win, and we gotta take the good and bad with him. But, the guys behind him need some passing plays now in case of injury. /rant

Dwayne Lawson was a 4* QB and good luck finding where he's playing these days.

Looks like Missouri Southern State.

Whoa, back up the truck!

They have him listed as QB but gave him uniform number 91 (and show him in uniform *catching* a pass?). Who do they think they are, Virginia Tech?

.... Oh, it's just an error. He's actually number 9 and really a quarterback. That's kind of... not unusual after all.

Never mind.

Wait, what?

Hey Hendon Hooker didn't fumble....let's go Hokies

Hokies, Local Soccer, AFC Ajax, Ravens

This all seems like a mountain out of a molehill to me. First of all, Grim had the muff on the punt last game and was out there fielding them all day today. And as a coach, I would want to limit King's carries when we are winning until he beefs up. Like everyone else, I would like to see more of him, because the upside is clearly there as opposed to McClease. And if there is some ball security concern, get it worked out and move on, because this is a player we NEED.

My question is Wheatley. Looked great on the kickoff return, is that all he does now? I mean if the "line is getting short", isn't he in it?

The LewDew, Professional Golf Bum

Good post.

And after that run we saw today, I want to see more of Wheatley.

Did anybody else feel like he slowed down towards the end of that run?

It almost looked to me like he tweaked something because with all the talk of him being a burner, you'd think he'd have tried to make some move to score with one guy left to beat.

I've watched that play a few times because I had the same question. The ODU player who pushed him out had speed and took a good angle. Wheatley was at full throttle so pulling up wasn't an option. And I think if he had tried to turn right, the defender had the angle and the momentum going towards the sideline that it wouldn't have made a difference.

The ODU guy played it pretty well but it did seem like Wheatley ran out of gas also. I would have liked to see him make a cut toward the middle of the field and then back out again to see if he could get the ODU guy turned around. An 80 yard return is obviously great but putting up 7 on a big play without needing the offense to finish the job is a huge boost that we've lacked (on special teams and in the run game).

Joffrey, Cersei, Ilyn Payne, the Hound, Jeff Jagodzinski, Paul Johnson, Pat Narduzzi.

The only thing I was thinking at the end of that run was:


I agree. I think that's where Wheatley could have put in some more effort, but I don't think maneuvering around the defender was an option. Speedy guys aren't always the most agile and shifty.

And yet he keeps Willis & McClease in the game. This BS is getting real old real fast

Willis is a senior QB backed up by a guy who has not thrown a pass in a football game since he was in high school in 2016.

I'm not a Fuente fan, but there is no comparison between interchangeable running backs and our QB situation. Not saying King should be benched or not, but you can't compare the RB vs QB situation.

King did play in the second half I believe. He was in on the last series of the 3rd.


One play I believe.

You can't throw a pass in college until the coaches give you a shot...

I don't understand why we do not just see how Hooker does in game situations with REAL packages. Willis isn't 'wowing' us with anything that is leaving us with thoughts like "Yep, I can see why he's definitely the starter for plays like that" - give Hooker a shot.

Probably because the coaches watch Hooker every day in practice and recognize that there is a significant difference between him and Willis

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If there really is that much difference between Hooker and Willis, then our coaches have really missed on evaluating talent at the QB spot on the recruiting trail with Hooker, Patterson, and Kadum. Willis hasn't shown me anything super special- and if that is the bar, then the other guys must be very far behind in development.

But if it is a lack in their development - Who does that fall back on? I thought Fuente was the QB whisperer?

There really isn't any evidence on which to base any conclusion about QB development.

Maybe that part can be blamed on Fuente, because he really isn't giving fans enough access to know how the QBs are developing.

Meanwhile, JJ continues to shine at Maryland.

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

Against two defenses that are on par with the 2018 VT defense.

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Would VT ever put up 140 points in two games with Josh Jackson?

I just sit on my couch and b*tch. - HokieChemE2016

Yes. At VT, JJ hung 64 on ECU, 59 on UNC, 38 on ODU, and 62 on W&M. I think the 2019 Howard and Syracuse Defenses are on par with the 2017 ECU and UNC defenses.

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You think Syracuse is as bad as an ECU defense? I don't believe we'd put up 60+ in back to back games with him.

I just sit on my couch and b*tch. - HokieChemE2016

I think Syracuse's Defense is comparable to UNC's in 2017 (this is premature, but I'm not high on Syracuse this year, we'll see if I'm right or not), and I think ECU's defense is comparable to Howard's. We'll see what happens when UMD plays a real defense, but I'd wager that JJ's performance will look similar to 2017 at VT; they'll beat up on bad teams, and struggle with good teams.

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FWIW, Willis had a better QBR than JJ did this past weekend.

You can count the amount of times the coaches have allowed Hooker and Patterson to throw the ball in game action during their VT careers on your hands. And the number doesn't grow much when you factor in all backup QBs during the Fuente era.

We don't know how our backups would do because the coaches don't give them a shot. It's been like this for 3 years and 2 games and it's unlikely to change. Our backups are only given a glorified wildcat package and that's it. If you expect to see them air it out in any game, you're going to be disappointed. They are never given the opportunity.

King Alum of the House Hokie, the First of His Name, Khal of the Turkey Legs, The rightful Heir to the Big Board, the Unbanned, Breaker of Trolls and Father of Gritty

At what point were we ahead enough in any game this year to risk disruption and put in our backup QB?

Answer: We haven't been in that position.

Also, we put in our backup for half the year last year, when our starter was injured.

We Fans don't know how our backups would do because the coaches don't give them a shot.

FIFY. Coaches watch these guys everyday in practice. I hope they know how good the back ups are.

Edit: either way this a problem; whether Fuente can get the players he needs, can't develop them, or can't identify the best player, it's still an issue.

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Our backups are only given a glorified wildcat package and that's it.

To be fair, AJ Bush and even Brenden Motley got a chance to pass in 2017 and 2016 respectively.

We aren't at practice (because they are all closed, but that's a whole other issue) so for all we know it could be somewhat of an issue or issue with a ball carrying technique that has been prevalent there.

You're reasoned explanation has no place here :-)

'Its easy to grin, when your ship comes in, and you've got the stock market beat,
but the man worthwhile, is the man who can smile, when his shorts are too tight in the seat'

So. after reading these posts so far....

We have a TRUE FRESHMAN RB that has tons of upside potential that has acquired a bad habit of not taking care of the ball at the end of plays.

We have a coaching staff that you can book bet has been on his ass for more than a week (and we all know it's probably longer).

He gets in the game and shows he still needs more coaching (being that he's a TRUE FRESHMAN with a whopping 4-5 quarters of experience in REAL GAMES!)

The coach sits him down to:
- Get his attention
- possibly keep from another fumble in a close game
- prevents his TRUE FRESHMAN from a possible hit to his psyche with a poor play
- allows a more "trusted" and more experienced back to finish up
-sets the table for great learning and teaching next week in practice.

From what i'm Reading in posts today he'll be in the portal and on twitter m-fing his coach by dinner time!!!

Really, are we really to this?

Great post.

It's like our fans think our coaches shouldn't coach now or be scared every player is gonna quit. This is football - these kids have been coached before and if not then they won't be good.

King will be just fine. Smart, talented great kid. Future star if he works at it. Today won't mean anything in the long-term.

I'm sure highly-touted RB recruits love seeing stuff like this. I know the coaches we compete against for them do, at least.

I have not watched the tape yet (first watch is always deceiving), but I am troubled that many of the players who are playing poorly are veteran experienced guys. Dax was horrendous today. Floyd continues to miss tackles and be out of position when his strength as a sophomore was his tackling and positioning. Farley would have his hips popped the wrong way on leverage coverage. The experienced OL weren't getting anymore push than the rookies (will look to see if this is true.) I am frustrated with game plan. I am more frustrated with guys not looking like they are as talented as we expected.

Five star get after it 100 percent Juice Key-Playing. MAN

I think it says a lot when our young guys are out performing the veterans. That shows me that it's not a lack of talent. It's a lack of good coaching (and the young guys haven't been ruined by that poor coaching yet)

I would have to watch again to make sure I wasn't mis-reading it, but I had the same feeling on Dax today. He appeared to be guessing again and out of position and I noticed a few times he was there and just couldn't make the play. He plays crazy hard, but I wonder if Tisdale is a better option because I still think Dax is out of position at Backer.

He also got his "nuts blocked off today"

- Bud Foster (probably)

Is it basketball season yet?

I watched Dax a lot yesterday. He was close here, nearly there, almost everywhere, but in the end, he was usually nowhere until the play was over. I don't know what's with him, but he doesn't seem like the same player. No fire, no emotion, not much help on the field that I noticed.

Edit: I just read elsewhere on TKP that Dax had 8 tackles. That makes me wrong in what I said, but I swear, I don't feel wrong. I saw him in pile ups and end of play scenes, but didn't see 8 tackles. Sometimes impressions are not reality, I guess?

Reel men fish on Wednesdays

and the young guys haven't been ruined by that poor coaching yet

This is an interesting take that I hadn't thought of before. I definitely agree on the O-line. I think Vice is a hard evaluation because he's brought in better talent than we've ever had. But what good is that talent if their fundamentals are so bad ODU's defensive line gives them fits? Obviously the defensive side of the ball is getting a shake up at the end of the season, so hopefully any coaching issues get corrected there....

Dax had a horrible game. And he continues to look slow and glued to blocks. Cunningham drove him out of bounds on one play. I think I saw Dax playing mike late in the game, but would need to double check.

Ashby had at least one bad miss as well. Overall we tackled like it was week zero. The good thing is that it appears more correctable than last year.

"I am probably too rational to be here"

Are we sure they didn't cover there skill players with grease? They popped out of tackles like they were.

Dax was noticeably bad, yeah.

I've also never seen Farley as a player as good as he's been purported to be. I want to believe that he'll be a brilliant shutdown corner by time he graduates. But we've had so. many. immediately. brilliant. cornerbacks over the years who came into the game as freshmen and made a difference, Caleb feels hard to accept.

Spring game he was nasty a few years ago, as a WR.

Farley should have been a WR. Period. The only reason he's on defense is because we have been awful at recruiting corners since TG left. It's a shame because I think Farley could have been a dynamic receiver. If you were at the 2017 spring game you saw the huge potential.

Farley was a project everywhere he could play. Fuente, who loves him some receivers, agreed to send him to corner. Can we please for the love of all things not second guess that decision forever like we know more than the staff?

"I am probably too rational to be here"

We clearly regressed as a team today. This is an uninspired team with a lot of holes. Our o line is bad, our d doesn't seem to want to take on contact , and our coaching staff has no answers to get either side of the ball any better. I was hoping for the week 1 to 2 progress, but we went backwards today.

Saw Floyd make a couple whiffs, but that one on one open field tackle was thing of beauty. I also felt like Farley was right there with his receiver for most of the game and pretty much got robbed on the PI call at the goal line - yes, his right arm was touching the guy but he had nice position and made great play IMO. I'm sure your investigations will reveal the deficiencies - and I look forward to the read.

"I play real sports, not trying to be the best at exercising..." - KP

Clearly Fuente went to the Herman Boone school of not wanting to fumble the football.

Here lies It's a Stroman Jersey I Swear, surpassed in life by no one because he intercepted it.

Michigan might have been feeling that way today, too.

I listened to Fuente's comment. He got pretty defensive about it and it was clear they've been working on some things with King. I guess I just wish he would make his firm points behind the curtain. Publicly barking about players not doing the right things in order to justify your decisions helps no one and over the long term, it hurts everyone.

At the same time, the arguments about double standards don't seem to factor the many inputs go into this type of decision making. Fuente has his reasons, and I trust the choice.

"How you doin', Randy?"

You're harping a point ad nauseum and I am buying in. I'm becoming a non fan of the pressers. This probably would be overlooked if we were winning big like season 1.

Yeah, it's nice to have some acknowledgement of my perspective, but what I really want most is for VT football to play to the level that it ultimately can. I am sure it is getting to the point where certain people are tired of hearing it.

I really should have led with this....but here goes anyways...

I thought the presser today overall was really positive and if I was a player on the team, I would feel supported and encouraged by most of his words. Fuente immediately thanked the fans, gave props to a big punt return, and spent a lot of time praising Grimsley. The dude cares about his team a ton and in my opinion has already proven his worth as a football coach. I really hope the guy doesn't go anywhere. His ceiling is very high.

Keep it up, Fu. You will get the pieces together and rock this thing out. We didn't forget that your guys took Clemson to the wire in the 2016 ACC Championship Game with a QB that YOU identified and landed (a guy who probably left a little earlier than we would have liked). Hang tough. All this bitching about gameplans and "who are we" is tiresome to my ears and I'm not even there with you guys. I am with you and the team, and Hokie Nation is too, even if we're a little pissy some times.

"How you doin', Randy?"

I've always like Fuente's tough, straightforward approach, but in year four it really just comes down to results on the field. An L to BC, and a competitive W against ODU, don't provide much basis for optimism. After the next ten games against a weak schedule, we should all have our answer on the Fuente question. Can we win our home games all against very weak or mediocre teams, can we even be competitive against ND, can we beat UVA, can we beat GT or UofM on the road. If the answer to at least three of those questions isn't yes, it's likely time to move on.

You highlight a key point.....Some parts of Fuente's tough, straightforward approach has likely made it impossible for THIS years VT team to go soaring back to great heights because we're staring the aftermath in the face, and this years results, in this case, are about some things that happened last year.

Some guys who were supposed to fill in at times and get some experience, are the starters. That's not a good recipe. Like I've said, The cultural re-build is on. Fuente has a great demeanor and I think anyone who questions Fuente's coaching ability or football knowledge is just finding a bag to punch....and so far, there have been some punch-able moments.

I believe that Coach will rebound strong from this and that at some point in his tenure here, VT football will be sick-nasty, and battling in ACC Title games once again. I don't think that's this year, but shit, surprise me!

"How you doin', Randy?"

Can't keep kicking the can down the road though man. When is a realistic time to expect a VT team that can compete for the ACC? Year 5? 7? 10? We aren't going to go from what we are seeing this year to "sick nasty" next year, so you're talking year 6 or 7 at least? By then the first few good recruiting classes are gone, and the class of 2020 isn't looking great. If you can't recruit talent consistently, you need to develop a culture and identity. But when your system is sputtering and still showing lack of progress, I can't put much faith in that either.

I'm not saying fire everyone today, but it's starting to look more and more like things are heading in the wrong direction. Fu may be the most upstanding high moral character guy ever, and I'm glad the team likes each other this year, but the product on the field is not at all where it needs to be. That's the measuring stick.

While I don't agree with it, I can understand how some people are seeing this year as year 2 for Fuente. If you think of the first season as a throwaway because he was just trying to keep the recruiting class afloat while figuring out the hand he was dealt, and year two was cleaning the slate to start moving toward his culture, that leaves us at year "2" of Fuente's guys and him getting his culture in place. So then you would say 2020 is the make or break, no excuses. I don't subscribe to this and for me this is the year that is all Fuente's team and culture and we will know what we have at the end of this year.

Whatever. It was one bad year.

Seasonal Brew means High ABV for football season and standard the rest of the year.

I don't see it as year 2 for Fuente, but I do see it as a fresh start for him and the program. It would have been phenomenal to hire a younger coach like Fuente and have him send the program right back to what I consider to be normal levels, which the guy damn near did. But, he stubbed his toe a little bit and that's okay. I don't support Fuente because we "might as well", I support him because he can have us battling at very high levels, perhaps higher than we've consistently done before.

"How you doin', Randy?"

Agreed. I see him as reformulating the program, and it doesn't surprise me that it's taking some time.

I'm actually more surprised at the people who seem to not realize that we needed to do that, or that it would take some significant re-working. You're right, though. He did stub his toe a little bit, but he does seem to know what to do in the long term.

I agree, we have no idea if Fuente has a double standard. Hopefully he has clear and concise communications with the players to ensure they understand how they are being evaluated.

What is the backup QBs throw picks all day in practice? I have no idea how big the gap is between players on the roster. Maybe the gap between QBs is large while the gap between RBs is small and a single turn-over is enough to alter the balance for the RBs but not the QBs.

I didn't watch super closely, was he having issues at mesh points, maybe?

"Why gobble gobble chumps asks such good questions, I will never know." - TheFifthFuller

There are plenty of valid criticisms of the coaching staff right now but I don't get how this is one of them. If they notice a guy not carrying the ball correctly, why the hell wouldn't you pull him from the game? Wouldn't it be bad coaching if you didn't, and then a late fumble costs us the game?

King is a good looking RB that looks like will have a great career at VT. Pulling him for a game to send a message about ball security is not something I can really criticize.

As for recruiting - I don't think we've done anything unusual here. Other coaches will do the same with prized recruits if ball security is a concern.

Yeah, in a vacuum, that is logical. But perhaps it's worth examining the optics of doing that to the freshman running back who didn't actually turn it over and then letting the turnover machine QB stay in the game.

edit - responded to wrong comment

Ut Prosim Ad Dei Gloriam

Fuente praises King in camp then turns around and benched his ass for turnover issues without actually having a turnover but then we watch Willis's ass literally throw a game away. Then we step back and scratch our heads wondering why kids want to transfer. Call a spade a spade.

I have no idea why my username is VT_Warthog.

Arkansas blew a 24-0 lead in the Belk Bowl.

Willis did not do himself any favors with the fan base with his ball handling in the first game, but he handled the ball pretty well against ODU. He threw the ball over the middle on medium routes (something the Key Play fan base criticized him for not doing last week), and he threw deep long balls. The only turnover on Saturday's game was when he was hit hard enough that the coaches expressed concern about a possible concussion. You can argue he should have gone down (slid) and not taken the hit. But the same "all-in" attitude that led to that hit was also the attitude that led to the late game full body stretch to get the first down in the BC game.

Willis is not the next Mike Vick or Tyrod Taylor; he is closer to a Logan Thomas or a Michael Brewer, and like it or not Hokie family, he is the best we have.

Ut Prosim Ad Dei Gloriam

Was King hurt on the play where he was tackled awkwardly? Might explain some of the lack of playing time, but not Fu's comment.

"Take care of the little things and the big things will come."

Fuente said he wasn't injured.

Needs to hang onto the ball much better...already had it come out, what, 3 times in 16 carries?

Has it? I was completely unaware

yeah but all were blown dead. its not so much a ball security thing as in technique its that when he is fighting for extra yards he just doesn't have the strength yet to properly secure the ball when DL/ LBs are trying to rip it out. I thought king would get back in but as the game went on mclease had a solid drive where he was running effectively in the 3rd and then the game was out of reach/ or at a point where running the clock and ball security were premier it just so happened that the 2 people Fuente trusted to take care of the ball both put it on the ground. willis and mcclease. I would like to see Bell in the redzone. mclease effectively got us down the field but he is nor he or king right now are a threat to punch it in and the box is going to load up on the ryan willis power as the season goes on.

for what its worth though. McClease did not go back in after his fumble either I don't believe and I know he didn't get a carry after. king did return in the 2nd half but did not get a carry.

also on the (I believe phil Patterson) touchdown that gave us 31 mclcease picked up a BIG block against a blitzing LB that ultimately gave willis the time to make that throw, that play would not have happened with out a great pick up by mcclease.

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Refs are taught that when in doubt, let the play continue. There are going to be some slow whistles and reviews if he keeps it up.

Ideally, King would redshirt but he is the best back on the team. He's going to have to play and we need him to hang onto the ball.

He dude is a true freshman. I also think that people desperately hope that he will be our next great back so badly that they are attributing unfair "potential" to him. We have no idea what his potential is. It's not like he busted any big plays for us last game. It's more likely than not that he ends up being just another average RB. We have gone through this numerous times with young RBs over the last 7 years. Let's give him more time before raising a fit when he is benched.

A healthy, ball-security conscious King is likely to be a important piece of any success this team will have this season.

It seems to me like this was a good teaching opportunity combined with not beating up yet another undersized RB early in the season in a fairly meaningless, only moderately close game (fan expectations and point spread aside).