For those who don't have the time or the means to listen to the radio show, I quickly paraphrased the part of the segment where they discuss VT. TW was pretty critical of the players. Here's some notes. Disclaimer - I jotted this down in 5 minutes so these aren't perfect quotes by any means.
KB: What's wrong with the Hokies?
TW: I don't have all the answers, but from watching - A Frank Beamer coached team is always going to have the players prepared and their game plans are going to be spot on. A player (Willie Byrn) said the fans are spoiled - if he had the gall to say that then he shouldn't be wearing the uniform. The program has been held to a high standard.. we've busted our butt to make sure VT is relevant during the bowl season. The coaches have been making sure they're ready to play but there's no carry over... it's all on the player. In the 4 years that I've played he's never heard the players complain about the fans. Players should be looking inwards about why they're not executing... there's a point where you can't look at the coaches anymore, you've got to look at the players.
KB: Is this a talent or execution issue?
TW: This isn't a talent issue whatsoever. They've go guys that are recruited to and fit the system. If some of those players can't own up to the expectations then maybe they shouldn't be at VT... Frustrating to watch because they're a lot better than what they've shown.
KB: something something
TW: It's frustrating because I'm watching the games but I don't see the tradition of VT...
KB: Is it more personal for you since you played?
TW: It's extremely personal... some people may not like what I have to say... but we put a lot of work into conditioning etc. to wear that VT uniform... I don't like the body language... lot's of bad body language. People are blaming the coaches and the play calling but there's too many players walking around hoping other players are going to make the play instead of guys saying that I'm going to make a play.
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Just my observation, but to me I just don't see that strong of a senior class like we've had in the past. I don't know that we have those solid 3 or 4 senior guys that are looked upon week in and week out as we've been used to.
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I haven't seen any real leadership on the sidelines. Maybe I'm missing it and it's there but I haven't seen a player on the offense trying to get the offense's mind right when they are getting manhandled in a game. Of course I've been watching all the games on TV so maybe they haven't shown it but they usually do. Where are the players during the course of a game upset about how their unit is performing? I think brewer can be that leader but he's not yet. All that may be due to the number of young players we have on offense.
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I may be the minority here, but I took Washington's comments as uneducated and brash - not in the sense that he doesn't know football, but I truly think he hasn't seen much of the Hokies this year. His comments really angered me. Please hear me out.
First, he attacks Willie Byrn. Not only does he attack him, but he does so out of context. Here is an excerpt from Mark Giannotto's article in the Washington Post on Byrn's comments:
Such rhetoric, though, has fallen on deaf ears this week. Byrn, for one, admitted the boos from fans Thursday were warranted because "we werent performing. ... Our fans are spoiled and thats a great thing."
At this point, with Virginia Techs season suddenly on the verge of spiraling to depths few could have predicted, he wants to see action.
"It cant just be Saturdays. Its got to be today. Its got to be tomorrow when it hurts, and when it hurts on Tuesday and Wednesday, thats when Saturdays are easy and thats kind of the thing were missing right now," Byrn said. "We kind of think Saturdays are tougher than practice and thats not the way it should be."
First, Byrn NEVER complained about the fans. He said booing was warranted. Washington's whole premise is based on a statement that did not happen. Either he didn't read the article(s) about the press conference or he rather chose to quote out of context. Regardless of the reason, both show irresponsibility and immaturity.
Second, what Byrn says is exactly what Washington wanted - players to take action. Byrn is trying to rally the troops and point out that practices are important. What else do you want the guy to do? But of course, according to Washington, he isn't deserving to wear the jersey. That is a cheap shot that an adult should never take.
I see a lot of guys who are working hard during the games. Granted, I see a few plays that I wish would have better execution but I see players working hard. I see the team working together. How many shots has Brewer taken? How many players are playing injured? Without being on the field, without being part of the team, you can not really challenge an entire team's effort. If you can give specific examples - then we can discuss that - but Washington did not.
In my opinion, and I hope this is true, Washington came into the radio show today without watching and studying VT football. He took the easy way out. He has no ties to current VT players but does have ties with the staff. He won't comment on coaches (no coach does except to praise them). He probably doesn't have time to watch film on VT and I understand that. But to throw players (and one certain one who worked his butt off to earn a scholarship and is only playing for VT as he has no chance for the NFL) under the bus really gets under my skin. It infuriated me on the ride home and it still does now.
Todd Washington's stock dropped a whole lot in my book. That doesn't mean anything - but I think what he said was not only false, but directed at the wrong person and quote.
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I was going to make the same point about Byrn. His "spoiled" quote was definitely taken out of context. He has consistently held himself and his teammates accountable all season.
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Byrn just used the wrong word. He was saying the fans have high expectations, which we do. Spoiled is just a negative way of saying that. I think he'd like to have a mulligan on that word, you could basically see it in his follow up "not that that is a bad thing."
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I don't see Byrn using the word "spoiled" as a big deal in the context of what was said. And FWIW, Washington's rant is a perfect example of the uninformed, knee-jerk pseudo journalism that is sooo prevalent today. I'm surprised ESPN hasn't snatched him up. He'd be perfect to run their TakeCommentsOutOfContextAndStartAGreasFire department.
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I just want those who haven't listened to the audio to know that TW does not mention Willie Byrn by name. TW's comments on VT start at 19:15 of the broadcast. As he said, no one holds the truth, but I did enjoy listening to his perspective and challenging the current players to give everything they've got.
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Record wise, we're the worst team in the ACC Coastal which is one of if not the worst Power 5 division. I'm not sure we really have the clout to start saying all these other Power 5 programs are beneath us anymore.
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Let's see how the season ends before the scolding and self-flagellation. The Coastal may not have any great teams, but it doesn't have any BAD teams either. Every other power 5 division (save the SEC West) has at least one BAD team.
The teams he mentions (and a number of others) are CLEARLY worse than VT. VT may not be a great team, but 4 of the 5 losses have gone down to the final minute. The teams mentioned have worse records and have all lost multiple games in which they weren't even competitive -- in some cases to non-power 5 schools.
To the point, it's entirely possible that Willie Byrn could be a starter at those programs (and a number of others).
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We are 1-4 in ACC play this season. One more loss, which will likely come on Saturday to Duke for a second year in a row, and we're guaranteed a losing record in ACC play. And you're not going to hear anyone claim the ACC is a great conference this year.
We don't have any business pointing fingers and saying other teams suck this year.
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The fact of the matter is that VT has much better talent at the skill positions than those teams and there are probably more than a feew for whom Willie Byrn would be a starter or significant contributor.
All of your sermonizing and self-loathing about records and conference strength is irrelevant to the question at hand.
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Its not self loathing to state the truth. The ACC is viewed as potentially the weakest of the Power 5 conferences, and the Coastal is viewed as the weaker of the 2 ACC divisions, and is widely viewed as one of the weakest divisions in Power 5 football. It is also not self loathing to point out that we're in dead last place of that division with a 1-4 record in ACC play. 2 years ago, we'd laugh hysterically if someone from UVa was trying to say their backups would be starters on other teams, which is essentially the viewpoint you're trying to say. We may think our roster has all this talent, but until they start showing it on the field, and a 4-5 overall record and 1-4 in ACC play is hardly showing it, its just an opinion, not fact.
The fact of the matter is, we're not a good team this year, and its ridiculous to say that it is a certain fact that our backups would be starters anywhere else, let alone significant contributors.
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It is self-loathing when you cherry pick facts, conjecture, and media opinions to make an irrelevant, but negative, point.
What does ANY of it have to do with whether Wille Byrn would or would not start for other power 5 teams? Team records and conference strength -- good or bad -- are completely IRRELEVANT to that discussion. The fact that VT is currently 4-5 has no bearing whatsoever (and equally so if, say, VT wins out and goes 8-5) on the question of whether he is a good enough receiver to play on one or more of those teams.
There is far more reason than not to think that among the 19 power 5 teams with the same or worse records as VT (through 9 games) -- as well some teams with better records -- a heady, experienced senior with 92 catches in the last 2 seasons (so far) for a team not noted for its passing game would find a place as a starter or significant contributor on a few of them.
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I think it's hard to call the ACC Coastal "one of if not the worst" among the P5 divisions. Is the ACCC really all that different from the B1G West or SEC East? Then you sort of have to throw out the Big12 because they don't have divisions, so you're left with B1G, SEC, ACC, and PAC12. The SEC West is clearly the strongest, PAC12 divisions can make good arguments, then probably ACC Atlantic and B1G East. But at that point, you're talking about the ACCC in the mix of 3 roughly equivalent divisions, behind only 5 other divisions...so is there really much of an argument to be made here? Sure it could be argued that it's in the lower half, but the "one of the worst" argument is, I think, a bit hyperbolic.
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You can't possibly say the worst of the SEC is in the same league as the ACC though because EssEeeCee. /sarc
Really though, the B1G West was going to be my counterpoint. When we're on top of the division, most fans seem to think that the ACC is talented but there is parity which causes them to look worse than they are. But yet, when we're on the bottom, the ACC is awful. I can't seem to get on board with all the doom and gloom that seems to be spreading amongst the fanbase right now, but this is not the place to get into that.
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Well there are many ways to measure - What bowl games will each conference division get in to would be interesting but has other factors involved, but does benefit the $chool the most
What division provides the most playoff contenders, only one sec team allowed for comparison purposes
Computer Rankings
Saragin
"central mean" gives the most weight to the middle team(s)
in the group and progressively less weight to teams as you go
away from the middle in either direction, up or down.
This tends to smooth out the effect of anomalous teams that are rated
much higher and lower than the middle team(s) in the group.
Central mean on scale of 100
1 SEC-WEST = 91.62
2 PAC-12(SOUTH) = 80.80
3 SEC-EAST = 79.33
4 BIG 12 = 78.98
5 ACC-COASTAL = 74.75
6 PAC-12(NORTH) = 74.64
7 BIG TEN-EAST = 74.62
8 BIG TEN-WEST = 73.83
9 ACC-ATLANTIC = 72.91
or from a overall view "simple mean" weights each team equally
no matter where they are relative to the middle.
SEC WEST =91.15
PAC 12 SOUTH =79.32
BIG12 =78.68
SEC EAST =78.57
PAC 12 NORTH =75.73
BIG 10 EAST =75.38
ACC COASTAL =75.03
BIG 10 WEST= 74.27
ACC ATLANTIC =72.91
SHOCKINGLY to the ACC but not many FSU haters, the Atlantic is the worst division. Also the difference in the Top 4 divisions and everyone else kind of sticks out, mostly just the SEC -w
Also of the Non Group of 5
11 MWC-MOUNTAIN Central = 66.77 Simple = 66.55
12 AMERICAN ATHLETIC Central = 63.99 and simple 63.02
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I wasn't saying those programs are beneath us per say, just examples of programs being historically mediocre. Perhaps I should've been more clear, especially to people who like to read in to things.
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Beaver_Hokie you are absolutely right. For Kyle Bailey to let TW take the Paper Boy's comments out of context and run with it was, at the very least, irresponsible.
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Comments
Time to nut up, or shut up! Can't imagine losing to Duke back-to-back in my lifetime! 60 minutes! Go HOKIES!!
As I've said to most of your moms at one point or another... put out or get out. I'm jk. I don't even own a van. I'm a nice guy. Go Hokies.
oh, hey Egbert. You look a little different today.
I decided to face the other way for a little while.
You turned the other cheek?!? Egads
Had to, the first one was getting too red.
For those who don't have the time or the means to listen to the radio show, I quickly paraphrased the part of the segment where they discuss VT. TW was pretty critical of the players. Here's some notes. Disclaimer - I jotted this down in 5 minutes so these aren't perfect quotes by any means.
KB: What's wrong with the Hokies?
TW: I don't have all the answers, but from watching - A Frank Beamer coached team is always going to have the players prepared and their game plans are going to be spot on. A player (Willie Byrn) said the fans are spoiled - if he had the gall to say that then he shouldn't be wearing the uniform. The program has been held to a high standard.. we've busted our butt to make sure VT is relevant during the bowl season. The coaches have been making sure they're ready to play but there's no carry over... it's all on the player. In the 4 years that I've played he's never heard the players complain about the fans. Players should be looking inwards about why they're not executing... there's a point where you can't look at the coaches anymore, you've got to look at the players.
KB: Is this a talent or execution issue?
TW: This isn't a talent issue whatsoever. They've go guys that are recruited to and fit the system. If some of those players can't own up to the expectations then maybe they shouldn't be at VT... Frustrating to watch because they're a lot better than what they've shown.
KB: something something
TW: It's frustrating because I'm watching the games but I don't see the tradition of VT...
KB: Is it more personal for you since you played?
TW: It's extremely personal... some people may not like what I have to say... but we put a lot of work into conditioning etc. to wear that VT uniform... I don't like the body language... lot's of bad body language. People are blaming the coaches and the play calling but there's too many players walking around hoping other players are going to make the play instead of guys saying that I'm going to make a play.
Man I wish Beamer could have gotten him to coach OL.
Just my observation, but to me I just don't see that strong of a senior class like we've had in the past. I don't know that we have those solid 3 or 4 senior guys that are looked upon week in and week out as we've been used to.
I haven't seen any real leadership on the sidelines. Maybe I'm missing it and it's there but I haven't seen a player on the offense trying to get the offense's mind right when they are getting manhandled in a game. Of course I've been watching all the games on TV so maybe they haven't shown it but they usually do. Where are the players during the course of a game upset about how their unit is performing? I think brewer can be that leader but he's not yet. All that may be due to the number of young players we have on offense.
From watching a few games close to the sidelines this year, the only identifiable leader that stands out is Kyshoen Jarrett.
I wish he was on our staff
I may be the minority here, but I took Washington's comments as uneducated and brash - not in the sense that he doesn't know football, but I truly think he hasn't seen much of the Hokies this year. His comments really angered me. Please hear me out.
First, he attacks Willie Byrn. Not only does he attack him, but he does so out of context. Here is an excerpt from Mark Giannotto's article in the Washington Post on Byrn's comments:
First, Byrn NEVER complained about the fans. He said booing was warranted. Washington's whole premise is based on a statement that did not happen. Either he didn't read the article(s) about the press conference or he rather chose to quote out of context. Regardless of the reason, both show irresponsibility and immaturity.
Second, what Byrn says is exactly what Washington wanted - players to take action. Byrn is trying to rally the troops and point out that practices are important. What else do you want the guy to do? But of course, according to Washington, he isn't deserving to wear the jersey. That is a cheap shot that an adult should never take.
I see a lot of guys who are working hard during the games. Granted, I see a few plays that I wish would have better execution but I see players working hard. I see the team working together. How many shots has Brewer taken? How many players are playing injured? Without being on the field, without being part of the team, you can not really challenge an entire team's effort. If you can give specific examples - then we can discuss that - but Washington did not.
In my opinion, and I hope this is true, Washington came into the radio show today without watching and studying VT football. He took the easy way out. He has no ties to current VT players but does have ties with the staff. He won't comment on coaches (no coach does except to praise them). He probably doesn't have time to watch film on VT and I understand that. But to throw players (and one certain one who worked his butt off to earn a scholarship and is only playing for VT as he has no chance for the NFL) under the bus really gets under my skin. It infuriated me on the ride home and it still does now.
Todd Washington's stock dropped a whole lot in my book. That doesn't mean anything - but I think what he said was not only false, but directed at the wrong person and quote.
I was going to make the same point about Byrn. His "spoiled" quote was definitely taken out of context. He has consistently held himself and his teammates accountable all season.
Byrn just used the wrong word. He was saying the fans have high expectations, which we do. Spoiled is just a negative way of saying that. I think he'd like to have a mulligan on that word, you could basically see it in his follow up "not that that is a bad thing."
I don't see Byrn using the word "spoiled" as a big deal in the context of what was said. And FWIW, Washington's rant is a perfect example of the uninformed, knee-jerk pseudo journalism that is sooo prevalent today. I'm surprised ESPN hasn't snatched him up. He'd be perfect to run their TakeCommentsOutOfContextAndStartAGreasFire department.
Agree so much with this, and pretty piss poor journalism on the part of Bailey as well to not correct Todd's hyperbole with fact
I agree...as much as I appreciate TW's intent, you make some very good points.
I just want those who haven't listened to the audio to know that TW does not mention Willie Byrn by name. TW's comments on VT start at 19:15 of the broadcast. As he said, no one holds the truth, but I did enjoy listening to his perspective and challenging the current players to give everything they've got.
I agree with your analysis, but on a certain level I like seeing a former player calling on the current players to step up and carry on the tradition.
PS - Go Beavers! See you in Wheeling in 3 weeks
I hear ya, buddy.
The Beavs have been keeping me sane this season. I really want to play Bridgeport for the title; it should be one for the ages.
Well TBH this year hasn't been butterfly's and rainbows. More like pop rocks and red bull
We need to take this year with a grain of salt and move on. Hopefully we get that 6th win and remain bowl eligible.
I do think that talent is a part of it though. Do you really think Willie Byrn would start at any other ACC or power 5 school? I don't think he would
To be fair, he actually doesn't start for VT. I'm guessing he could be second string for a fairly large number of programs.
I disagree. Maybe not start at Clemson or FSU, but any other ACC school he would as well as at the Indiana's, Texas Tech's, and Purdue's of the world.
Record wise, we're the worst team in the ACC Coastal which is one of if not the worst Power 5 division. I'm not sure we really have the clout to start saying all these other Power 5 programs are beneath us anymore.
Let's see how the season ends before the scolding and self-flagellation. The Coastal may not have any great teams, but it doesn't have any BAD teams either. Every other power 5 division (save the SEC West) has at least one BAD team.
The teams he mentions (and a number of others) are CLEARLY worse than VT. VT may not be a great team, but 4 of the 5 losses have gone down to the final minute. The teams mentioned have worse records and have all lost multiple games in which they weren't even competitive -- in some cases to non-power 5 schools.
To the point, it's entirely possible that Willie Byrn could be a starter at those programs (and a number of others).
We are 1-4 in ACC play this season. One more loss, which will likely come on Saturday to Duke for a second year in a row, and we're guaranteed a losing record in ACC play. And you're not going to hear anyone claim the ACC is a great conference this year.
We don't have any business pointing fingers and saying other teams suck this year.
The fact of the matter is that VT has much better talent at the skill positions than those teams and there are probably more than a feew for whom Willie Byrn would be a starter or significant contributor.
All of your sermonizing and self-loathing about records and conference strength is irrelevant to the question at hand.
Its not self loathing to state the truth. The ACC is viewed as potentially the weakest of the Power 5 conferences, and the Coastal is viewed as the weaker of the 2 ACC divisions, and is widely viewed as one of the weakest divisions in Power 5 football. It is also not self loathing to point out that we're in dead last place of that division with a 1-4 record in ACC play. 2 years ago, we'd laugh hysterically if someone from UVa was trying to say their backups would be starters on other teams, which is essentially the viewpoint you're trying to say. We may think our roster has all this talent, but until they start showing it on the field, and a 4-5 overall record and 1-4 in ACC play is hardly showing it, its just an opinion, not fact.
The fact of the matter is, we're not a good team this year, and its ridiculous to say that it is a certain fact that our backups would be starters anywhere else, let alone significant contributors.
It is self-loathing when you cherry pick facts, conjecture, and media opinions to make an irrelevant, but negative, point.
What does ANY of it have to do with whether Wille Byrn would or would not start for other power 5 teams? Team records and conference strength -- good or bad -- are completely IRRELEVANT to that discussion. The fact that VT is currently 4-5 has no bearing whatsoever (and equally so if, say, VT wins out and goes 8-5) on the question of whether he is a good enough receiver to play on one or more of those teams.
There is far more reason than not to think that among the 19 power 5 teams with the same or worse records as VT (through 9 games) -- as well some teams with better records -- a heady, experienced senior with 92 catches in the last 2 seasons (so far) for a team not noted for its passing game would find a place as a starter or significant contributor on a few of them.
I think it's hard to call the ACC Coastal "one of if not the worst" among the P5 divisions. Is the ACCC really all that different from the B1G West or SEC East? Then you sort of have to throw out the Big12 because they don't have divisions, so you're left with B1G, SEC, ACC, and PAC12. The SEC West is clearly the strongest, PAC12 divisions can make good arguments, then probably ACC Atlantic and B1G East. But at that point, you're talking about the ACCC in the mix of 3 roughly equivalent divisions, behind only 5 other divisions...so is there really much of an argument to be made here? Sure it could be argued that it's in the lower half, but the "one of the worst" argument is, I think, a bit hyperbolic.
You can't possibly say the worst of the SEC is in the same league as the ACC though because EssEeeCee. /sarc
Really though, the B1G West was going to be my counterpoint. When we're on top of the division, most fans seem to think that the ACC is talented but there is parity which causes them to look worse than they are. But yet, when we're on the bottom, the ACC is awful. I can't seem to get on board with all the doom and gloom that seems to be spreading amongst the fanbase right now, but this is not the place to get into that.
we beat the best the B1G has to offer ... in their house ... I'm just sayin' ...
Well there are many ways to measure - What bowl games will each conference division get in to would be interesting but has other factors involved, but does benefit the $chool the most
What division provides the most playoff contenders, only one sec team allowed for comparison purposes
Computer Rankings
Saragin
"central mean" gives the most weight to the middle team(s)
in the group and progressively less weight to teams as you go
away from the middle in either direction, up or down.
This tends to smooth out the effect of anomalous teams that are rated
much higher and lower than the middle team(s) in the group.
Central mean on scale of 100
1 SEC-WEST = 91.62
2 PAC-12(SOUTH) = 80.80
3 SEC-EAST = 79.33
4 BIG 12 = 78.98
5 ACC-COASTAL = 74.75
6 PAC-12(NORTH) = 74.64
7 BIG TEN-EAST = 74.62
8 BIG TEN-WEST = 73.83
9 ACC-ATLANTIC = 72.91
or from a overall view "simple mean" weights each team equally
no matter where they are relative to the middle.
SEC WEST =91.15
PAC 12 SOUTH =79.32
BIG12 =78.68
SEC EAST =78.57
PAC 12 NORTH =75.73
BIG 10 EAST =75.38
ACC COASTAL =75.03
BIG 10 WEST= 74.27
ACC ATLANTIC =72.91
SHOCKINGLY to the ACC but not many FSU haters, the Atlantic is the worst division. Also the difference in the Top 4 divisions and everyone else kind of sticks out, mostly just the SEC -w
Also of the Non Group of 5
11 MWC-MOUNTAIN Central = 66.77 Simple = 66.55
12 AMERICAN ATHLETIC Central = 63.99 and simple 63.02
SHOCKINGLY to the ACC but not many FSU haters, the Atlantic is the worst division
Makes sense when you consider that Syracuse, NC State and Wake are probably the three worst teams in the ACC. The Coastal is pretty balanced.
FWIW, another source saying that the ACC Coastal is not the worst Power-5 Division. Shocker, it's actually the SEC East
Both Pac 12 divisions? Take away the names and look at the Pac-12 North records...
I wasn't saying those programs are beneath us per say, just examples of programs being historically mediocre. Perhaps I should've been more clear, especially to people who like to read in to things.
Deleted
Beaver_Hokie you are absolutely right. For Kyle Bailey to let TW take the Paper Boy's comments out of context and run with it was, at the very least, irresponsible.