But I can't be the only person here that gets tired of plucky, small slot receivers having career days, and QB's career highs rushing the ball? I can't be the only one sick of that? If there is a "flaw" in what many call the "best DC in America" it's that his "spill and fill" spills these QBs to a spot where the margin of error is zero and relies on a VERY solid tackler...else the QB - any QB looks like Barry Sanders. If we are one inch off that counter gap or if the LB that is supposed to be there right that instant is not Cody Grimm- Malik Rosier looks like Lee Suggs. And it sucks on national TV, let me tell you. Bud deserves more than a little criticism for Clemson and Miami this year. Against top 10 teams - he might want to adjust this a little bit? Maybe spy the QB with Tremaine Edmunds? - who lately is the quietest 6'05 250 lb linebacker in America? Everybody knows the offensive skill positions are green- and thus not likley to score 42 points on Miami and Clemson- we get it. But how about forcing an average Miami offense and 58% passer to work their way down the field passing? Instead of the huge chunk plays? That's on Bud, IMO. Oh and if I could have put my entire savings before the game on Berrios looking like AJ Green at times against VT, I would have. Another recurring theme it seems- covering "slot" WRs effectively.
I know Bud gets the perennial "pass", and I get that
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The problem is even in the first half, the offense couldn't muster much of anything. Imagine being on the field, over and over and over again and trying to stop Miami, who by the 2nd or 3rd possession can come up with whatever play they want. Its just crazy how much we punted and the defense keeps going back out there. If the defense is out there that much, you are going to give up points.
Like I said, Bud gets a pass- he deserves it, I guess. But this whole offense sucks, which hurts Bud is garbage. Miami went right down the field on their first possession. Was the defense tired then? and Malik Rosier going for a career high in rushing is not Brad Cornelsons fault. Maybe Bud the great coach should become Bud the above average recruiter for once and land some more guys that can play and substitute? If the offense with a freshman QB is not lighting up the field?
I'm a firm believer in momentum in these games. If the offense can't get going, the defense will get physically and mentally exhausted and give up points. I think the offense playing poorly has a bigger effect on the defense than we realize. I mean they're 17-22 year old kids playing on one team. I don't think the offense and defense are as separate as it seems.
Yeah, we made too many mistakes, from fumbles to interceptions to dropped passes, to win that game. Just when it appeared we had the momentum, Savoy fumbled away a potential TD drive, and we could not get the momentum back for the remainder of the game. It's a damn shame, cause if we had brought our A game, we could have won.
Oh, and the U is not back, IMO. If either ND or Miami makes the playoff, they will get obliterated.
In general I agree with you, save for the fact at least they'll have gotten to the playoffs.
I remember the defense giving the offense great field position; they turned the ball over right back to the U. When you are playing good teams, you cannot afford that many mistakes and expect to win. Bud is not to blame here. Malik Rosier was intercepted 3 times on that game and only 10 points came out it. Inexcusable! The Hokies won 7 as a team, and lost 2 as a team. They will learn from it.
Defense on tilt most of the game, hard to play aggressive when you're down the entire game with a failing offense.
If he shiz's the bed vs GT this season, then we can talk about defensive struggles.
Also very deflating to the defense when you play great coverage, but have 2 Pass Interference calls go against you setting them up for an easy score, and then a Personal Foul for a completely legal hit later in the game which extended a drive.
So the label "best DC in college football" and comparisons to Mike Stoops and Brent Venables are really reserved for when the offense puts up 21 points in a half? Is that what people should say? Or should Bud adjust to Miami running the QB power and mid line option? Should bud put a spy on Rosier after halftime or just tolerate more chunk plays? easier to blame it on a green offense I guess.
I just think the "big plays" stick out more because it's in a big game situation. I just think it's all about perspective, 28 isn't a ton of points to allow and in all honesty, they probably should've scored less. Chunk plays happen for every team no matter how good the D is. I can't complain about the D, I thought they played well with the exception of a few plays, but we handled Rozier fine IMO and forced 3 picks when he had great protection all night.
Good points. But the running QB is a theme- it really is. There is a weakness there, just like there was in 2002-2003 when the defense was getting killed with the middle passing game- Bud adjusted and the 05-07 defenses were legit. Now he MUST adjust again- Cutcliffe, Johnson, Richt - these guys are onto it- they know we are going to aggressively slant the DL, and spill the QB to a linebacker most of the time- and if that linebacker is not Cody Grimm, there is an opportunity for us to be a little "off" and 3 yards turns into 40. I don't know if we will win Saturday, but I would bet good money on 450 yards rushing for GT and over 200 for their QB.
How much? I'll take that bet. You can Venmo me
I'll triple or nothing that offer....
First off, if GT rushes for 450, we are not winning. Second, the most they have rushed against us since 2010 is 346 yards (in 2010). Following that performance is 309 yards, 250 yards, 243 yards, 192 yards, 161 yards, and 129 yards. Their average over those years (not including games against VT) is about 310 yards per game. Against us it is about 230 yards per game.
shhhh don't state stats/facts when a triple dog dare has been thrown into the betting mix...
LOL. good one. And I bet "alot" with myself as opposed to internet bookies.
In which half did Miami score 21 points? The first half (14-3)? Or the second (14-7)?
Also, didn't we score 21 in the second half against Venebles last year in the ACCCG?
we have up and down games offensively.... wouldn't surprise me of Miami almost shit the bed against UNC cuz they were prepping for us a week in advance...
Both Venables and Stoops have had their defenses play poor games this season, as well. IMO, you're expecting perfection each and every time out from a coaching position where "best" does not equal "perfect".
I agree with Rockypere77 Miami is FAST. If you leave Miami's offense out there too long, or keep puttting them back out on the field on a turnover too soon/often in good field position, they're going to score when your defense starts to get tired.
That said, it's the kind of defense that gives up nothing or everything. VT runs it so tight that if one person is out of position against a fast team it's a score, and if the offense doesn't hold the ball long enough these games tend to get out of hand.
I think it's a fair question, and worth reviewing the game with this in mind.
Our DBs seem to get beat on slants a lot. This is especially the case when they give the WR some cushion (drop back 5-8 yards). It just seems easy. It would be nice to see a LB drop back and cut off the slant. Maybe we do that and I just don't notice it (I'm not an x's and o's guy like some here).
Everyone knew that Berrios was going to run a slant for that TD.
Bud has dropped DE's recently to do that- and I love it. I just wish that for Berrios, Switzer, Renfrow these annoying little WRs- get in their face with a guy like Adonis or Mook.. We have cornered the market on big psychical corners- easily our best recruited position for years. Get is Berrios's face/challenge him/take him out of the game. In January he is going to be working for an accounting firm- take him out of the game.
In January he is going to be working for an accounting firm
So is that what we're calling the New England Patriots these days?
OK, legal defense team.
Well, if we've got 'em, our "big psychical corners" should get an interception every pass play, right?
Beat me to it.
Nope, not at all what I said
Went right over your head, huh? Well, it wasn't that great of a joke to begin with, I guess, just couldn't resist. All I said you said (note quotation marks), though, you said.
Anyone else notice we were slipping all over the place? Kinda was hoping they'd change to longer cleats at halftime...
Yeah saw an article Sunday with pics on the condition of the field. Apparently the NFL had to "certify" it was ok before the Dopefins game. Shitty like the rest of that dump.
2005 - #9--#4--#5--#18- #41
2006 - #1--#31-#24- #28- #16
2007 - #5--#46-#35-#27-#21
2008 - #8--#4--#50-#39-#16
2009 - #14-#1--#29--#104-#21
2010 - #31-#6--#18--#32--#24
2011 - #24-#1--#67--#14--#61
2012 - #17-#1--#75--#3---#54
2013 - #5--#2--#78-#1---#9
2014 - #9--#7--#35-#42--#1
2015 - #36-#1--#52--#22--#2
2016 - #11--#1--#14--#12--#8
2017 - #12--#1--#15--#31--#3
AVG - #14 - #8 - #38 - #29 - #21
Defensive efficiencies over the past 12 years. One of these is Alabama, one is VT, one is Miami, one is Clemson and One is FSU.
Hint *the first column is Virginia Tech.
I really dont think you understand the term "gets a pass".
Awesome.. can you run "ACC Career rushing days for QBs" next? I bet Foster is all over that list too.
I got some time to kill.
Name a QB, and I'll tell you his best rushing performance against us along with his best rushing performance against any other team. (Georgia Tech excepted, because I don't consider their QBs QBs.)
Sirk, Jones, the second string chump from ECU, Rosier, Dungey, CJ Brown, Marquis WIlliams - and thank you
I can tell you right now without looking it up that Dungey ran all over Clemson and FSU as well.
Also, to make sure you realize what you are asking about. You are referencing 7 QB's over the course of five seasons. We played 62 games in that timespan including the 2013 season (CJ Brown). I do agree CJ Brown was one of the more frustrating ones because 2013 was actually a very strong defense and that was their entire offense, losing Kyle Fuller hurt our defense a lot that year but I don't think that was the whole issue.
You can add the florida transfer BC guy- I know at the time that was his career high rushing against VT
Oooh yes I did forget about that one. But I am pretty confident you can find 8 examples of QB having a big rushing game against any team since 2013.
^This^
Running QBs are a problem for every team. Bama has had problems with elusive QBs. I watched the game Saturday night thinking if JJ was a little faster it's the difference between punting and a 20yd scamper.........which is why I felt that our OC needed to be more aggressive against UM early because JJ wasn't gonna provide an easy button with his legs.......I don't believe that Rosier showed enough for Bud to think that he needed a spy. And that's not the type of adjustment that would be made at halftime...
Counterpoint is that Bama lost their stud backer and his backup in that game. They have had several defensive injuries, but it isn't the focus due to them drubbing teams. LSU was their closest game in a while.
The CJ Brown was not what beat us that day.
The defense gave up 14 points in regulation.
That should be enough to win. I'd give Bud a "pass" on 14 points allowed. I suspect if you looked at a few other games with big qb run numbers you will find that the d did enough to win.
Stats shown as attempts-yards-TDs.
Thomas Sirk: 18-109-0 on us (2015), 20-155-2 on Indiana (2015)
Daniel Jones (I'm assuming): 18-99-2 on us (2016), 16-108-2 on Northwestern (2017)
James Summers: 29-169-2 on us (2015), 14-131-1 on Navy (2016)
Malik Rosier: 13-84-1 on us (2017), and he barely played the last two seasons
Eric Dungey: 24-106-1 on us (2016), 22-109-1 on Florida State (2017)
CJ Brown: 23-122-2 on us (2013), 22-162-1 on Clemson (2011)
Marquise Williams: 19-94-0 on us (2014), 15-148-2 on Georgia Tech (2015)
Tyler Murphy (BC transfer from Florida): 18-122-1 on us (2014), 13-191-1 on USCw (2014)
Cant believe CJ Brown torched Clemson and thank you. Perception clearly not reality, my bad.
No worries, man.
Oh, I added Tyler Murphy (BC) after rereading comments.
Excellent work. This has needed to be done for so long and I'm glad someone took the initiative to make these comparisons.
I'm just glad to have had the time.
Legit dude, thank you. I was with him on perceiving it so. Reality is so much nicer.
I think it's because since all of us here are focused on the Hokies so much, we don't really pay attention to anyone else on the same level (and that's understandable).
Look up how many of those QBs with "career rushing days" actually beat us. I don't give a shit who has career days against us when we win.
Panning Bud for not being able to stop QB keepers in a couple of games a year is like being upset that Peyton Manning couldn't run the ball. He may have a shortcoming, and he may have a questionable game or two a year, but he's still one of the best out there.
I do not disagree he is one of the best
Your expectation is to have zero weakness on defense. That isn't feasible. College defense will always have holes in it. Bud relies on pressure and confusion to lower the likelihood of the offense finding the holes.
Nope, not my expectation and I said as much. Let's say you go to bars often, and you often get some smiles and a few flirts, but this one bar you go to, you reel in playboy bunnies... That is "running" QBs against Bud Foster recently. CJ Brown, Rosier, that clown from BC a couple years ago, all of Dukes QBs, etc etc etc. They do NOTHING running the ball against anyone else. It's a flaw in the defense. Plan and simple.
Bud Foster's defense doesn't have a problem with running QBs as much as it does a problem with QBs running
Again, every defense has holes somewhere. Bud knows that the likelihood of the qb getting a few scrambles to change the outcome of the game is low.
meh, we had them in 3rd and whatever over and over last night and they'd pull it out with a throw to Berrios where our guy just got out muscled for the ball (as in, there were 4 hands on the ball when it was caught). That's good coverage and you can't fault any coach for that. His scheme produced 3 quality TOs that we wasted with our offense. The long runs looked like a combination of LBs getting pulled out of position and the D-line being held from making a play (warning: homer glasses on full power). Some of the BS flags that kept Miami's early drives going aren't on Bud. When your CB turns to make a play on the ball and executes a textbook pass defense and still gets a flag there's not a whole lot you can do about it.
I want to see the defense tighten up a lot more, but if you watched this game, there's no way you blame the defense for this loss. Both Defense and ST gave offense ample opportunity to execute and win this game and they just squandered opportunity after opportunity.
I never blamed the "loss" on the defense. I'm talking about two specific areas.. the running QB and 5'07 slot receiver going up and down the field. It happens all the time. Teel tweeted that Miami had 6 of their 7 longest plays of the year against the VT defense IIRC... thats an issue
Berrios had three catches for 50 yards. Two of those catches were on the same drive. He didn't go "up and down the field."
Get those facts out of this thread.
He scored a TD, and that is the exact same stat line he would have against Virginia Union.. I was making a larger point.
Then don't resort to hyperbole about "going up and down the field".
Do you mean that play where Mook slipped? Bud should have made sure that he had better footing on that one.
Very important point. The upside of Bud's high-risk, high-reward scheme is that it will yield turnovers, tackles for loss, and three-and-outs. The downside is that occasionally it gets torched. If he could invent a low-risk, high reward scheme, that would be better. But as it stands, the risks come with the rewards.
1) Bud consistantly has fielded "good defenses" (at worst) for 30ish years which is why many refer to him as *one of the best DCs*. Its his consistant goodness (not necessarily greatness) I havent heard him called THE best in America by anyone of note
2) Im not giving him a pass but when I watch a game like miami I don't come away thinking, man that defense is our problem and screwed us. They could have been better but they certainly could have been worse. I wish our offense could have made more of the turnovers they got us.
Sorry, but this is a bad thread.
As opposed to a bunch of Gifs and Lawson/Drew Harris resets?
Was this not a serious thread then?
I was seriously pointing out what I feel is a valid critique of Bud. I gave my reasons why. Disagreeing with that is fine.
Honestly, I just disagree with every aspect of this assessment.
1) Tremaine Edmunds DOES spy the QB sometimes, and is great in the open field, his issue is sometimes he drifts too far upfield and gets caught out of position
2) Literally EVERY team struggles with running QB's, not just us. EVERY team.
3) Berrios has been Miami's best playmaker over the middle of the field for the last two seasons, he actually had a lackluster game against us, outside of the 3rd and long completion, I would say.
4) Bud Foster does more with less and nobody has the pedigree he has. Since 1996 he himself is #1 in many defenses categories over every other team in the country. At one location he is number one in like 5 or 6 defense categories over the last 20 years over every other team in the country including Alabama, Ohio State, Florida State, USCw, you name it.
So yes, "Bud gets a pass"... When Miami runs us out of the stadium, has more explosive plays than they had all year and Rosier has a career game. Thanks for confirming that.
After reading all of your comments in this thread, I don't really understand what you want. Bud has consistently fielded a great defense, the players tackled really poorly this game, the defense scheme wasn't bad.
He (as well as a number of others) wish to see a reduction in career yardage made by QB scampers against our defensive fronts and backers, particularly at vital points during important and tight scoring games. Which is 100% understandable.
That said, I would've rephrased the title and some of the word usage of this thread so as not to step on so many toes or feet and make it come off the wrong way (to which I acknowledge he DID make AN effort. It just didn't suffice enough).
The other thing too is that we need higher and better ranked recruits at those skilled positions (Ends, Tackles & Backers) to see a better reduction in those numbers. I still question the tackling methods that are being taught by Foster+Wiles (respectively of course).
Hear, hear. There is no contradiction between these two statements:
1. Bud Foster is the best DC in college football
2. Bud Foster's scheme fails against QB runs often enough that he should have fixed it by now.
Are you drunk on a Monday?
We made some crucial mistakes on defense no doubt, we gave up some big plays. Bud Foster doesn't tackle the players or force them to run out of position. He has to work with what he has.
It's also asinine to believe that this loss was on the defense, we were only in this game because of the defense. We forced three turnovers and our offense squandered multiple scoring opportunities with poor execution and turnovers.
100% the defense could have played better, 100% Bud could have made a few bad play calls, no DC in history has had the perfect call for every down, but we didn't lose either the Clemson game or the Miami game because of defense. They both contributed to the loss, but our offense coughed up the ball 7 times between those two games, multiple of which led to points for the other team. You might forget we actually held Clemson to 340(?) odd yards and outgained them (the difference is that they made the most of their opportunities while our offense squandered them.)
Plus Kelly Bryant is one of the better runners/scramblers in the country, he's been giving people fits all year except Syracuse who he played for one half with a seriously injured ankle.
I don't see how Miami "runs us out is the atadium" . Miami got 4 scores, and our D got 3 turnovers. I will take that on D any week of the year.
Not me: I would only accept it against top 10 teams.
Can we PLEASE stop the 1995/1996 timelines. That was 20 years ago....how about since 2012
Ok so recruit like a Top 25 program that VT is. Start landing 4/5* defensive players, shocking as it maybe 4/5* players are the real deal and 3* players are 3* players now
and once again that ALL LEADS TO MY POST YEARS AGO
...
What do these two guys want, this is what Hokies wanted and what we should want
Dabo came in with a team in about the same spot as VT i think
While we were living on hype and the demanding to stay in state. Clemson was always getting better.
Dabo Played in the ACCCG in his 1st full year as coach. 8 years coaching, 4 ACCCG, 2 ACC championships, 1 Championship Game
No doubt ACC titles and being a legit playoff contender is what we all want. But that video is from Dabo's 3rd full year as head coach. He went on to get embarrassed in the Orange Bowl 70-33 by WVU.
In Dabo's first two years as full-time head coach, he went 9-5 and 6-7 with 5 combined losses over the two seasons vs ranked teams (ranked as of the date of the game). Meanwhile, his first two recruiting classes (in 2009 and 2010) were ranked 36 and 27.
Do you think Clemson fans were frustrated at times over those first two years with everything from on-field performance to recruiting just like we are? I'm sure they were. Are they still complaining 9 years into Dabo's tenure? Definitely not. Maybe VT's ceiling will never be Clemson's--and likely so due to financials--but we'd all be a little more sane if we give this thing with Fuente a little bit of patience.
Sorry for the busy week just getting back to Hokie Football
VT hasnt done to well at the Orange Bowl
And that's my point. Yes and one thing about this game above is that Dabo said winning the ACC was only the start. Somewhere there's a postgame interview. The ACC was a good conference back in 2011, but Dabo knew Clemson was more than just winning the ACC in 2011.
Clemson has the similar fans as VT. Close Finances. 2 teams so close. VT had won 4 ACC titles since Clemsons last the 1991 Title
And that is the ENTIRE problem. in 2007 - Oct 2010 we thought we were on the same level as Clemson. THEN THE GAME AT LANE.
So back in 2010 you could switch it up from Clemson with Bama. aND All VT waS LikE "Maybe VT's ceiling will never be Bama's But Clemson and VT are two good schools in the ACC #ESPNLOVESSEC #NOACCLOVE #DaUbackYet"
Clemson has earned everybit of the last 5 years because in 2010 they wanted to change things and start with the ACC championship with a Major upset
I disagree vehemently that Tech and Clemson have the same financial situations or fans. Tech has long standing disadvantages that it has to work hard to overcome. Clemson pays for less totoal sports than Tech does, sits closer to major alumni population centers (Greenville almost 900,000 people, Atlanta, Charlotte and Charleston and Columbia), and had a national title in the 80's to help their perceptions.
Long standing, self imposed, decisions to not be as open
Was it 1 or 2 years ago the whole thing came out about former players and how they've been treated.
South Carolina had one $1 million donor when Steve Spurrier took the head coaching job in 2005. (Martha Williams and Howard Brice, who left some of their estate to USC for stadium renovation and expansion.) Somewhere there's a interview with him on how he knew that this needed to change, and on the football side he made sure to make this a priortiy. In 2014, the Gamecocks had a dozen or more
Tech was in the 99 Title Game and the ACC Title game for 6 years. VT bent over backwards and then did 2 front flips to be in primetime for ESPN to build a very high perception.
Remember when we blamed bad recruiting on this. Location doesnt matter for recruiting Players or recruiting Fundraising.
Bullshit that location doesn't matter. How many alums are going to give when they can't get to sporting events easily? Winning a title and playing for one are not the same.
I mean replace Alums with recruits and we had this same thread a few years ago
I found these from VT
VT has More than 250,000 living alumni from every state and more than 100 countries.
For the purpose of salary comparisons, the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia identifies institutions with academic profiles similar to Virginia Tech's.
University of California, Berkeley
University of California, Davis
University of Colorado, Boulder
Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.
University of Florida, Gainesville
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Iowa State University, Ames
University of Maryland, College Park
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
Michigan State University, East Lansing
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
University of Missouri, Columbia
North Carolina State University, Raleigh
The Ohio State University, Columbus
Pennsylvania State University, University Park
University of Pittsburgh
Purdue University, West Lafayette, Ind.
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, New Brunswick
State University of New York at Buffalo
University of Southern California, Los Angeles
Stony Brook University, State University of New York
Texas A&M University, College Station
University of Texas at Austin
University of Washington, Seattle
University of Wisconsin, Madison
So is our Athletic Dept under-preforming the Academics
The offense is just too young / too inexperienced this year. With the overall talent level on our team we need guys coming back for their senior years even if they play great as rSo/Jr. Not only do they generally need the additional time to get ready for the NFL themselves, but their backups need the additional time to get ready for a bigger role in college.
If Evans, Ford and Hodges had not skipped their senior year things would be a lot different and we'd be in a much better position when it comes to matching up teams with top-tier defenses like Clemson & Miami. Really makes you say "what if" because none of these guys made an active roster, although in Ford's case he's legitimately parked on IR after having knee surgery in August. Even just having Evans in the backfield as a legit run-pass threat and Hodges out wide opposite Cam, with Savoy in the slot, would have made our O so much more effective.
You'd think we've lost 5 straight games and are in danger of missing a bowl. We lost one fucking game. It happens. Move on. Morale was through the roof this time last week and we were confident we were going to go to Miami and win. Now I see threads like this and idiots on twitter calling for Fuente's job.
Normally I think we have one of the more reasonable fanbases in college football but sometimes we really embarrass ourselves.
I haven't been on twit turds, so I'll take your word on that. But for the most part, folks on here have been MOSTLY reasonable and understanding. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I haven't seen a single post or comment calling for Fu or Corn to be shit-canned (and I hope I won't). This is just a thread about some obvious aspects that the defense has struggled with. Don't misread it as an attack on Foster. Just stay off Twitter and stick here.
I will say that Richt seemed to prepare Rosier to pull and run if he saw our 2 LB's split wide when they went 5 wide. A couple times it looked as if the calls were mirror images of when duke ran QB power vs us in 15 I think.
The long TD run the RG let settle go upfield and went straight to Motu and Rosier walked in. Chalk this down to Richt noticing something via film and them executing at a perfect level.
I think the defensive issues were mostly related to poor tackling. Really the first game that this happened all season.
You're taking a bunch of crap related to perceived attitude, but you're not entirely wrong. Bud's defense absolutely has some weaknesses. They all do - it's a matter of tradeoffs. 90% of all football, offense or defense, is getting your guy 1-on-1 with their guy when your guy is better. It's what Bud's D tries to do, but it's also what Fu/Co's offense tries to do. Our running game is suffering because our running backs are too infrequently better than the unblocked guy the meet in the hole, our passing game suffers when we can't win the 1-on-1 deep ball, and our defense suffers when their quarterback or slot receiver is better than our linebacker or safety.
Bud could try to limit the damage when we lose the 1-on-1, but he'd likely have to give up some of the damage we inflict when we win the 1-on-1. Fewer big gains, but fewer TFL, fewer sacks, fewer ints. It's a tradeoff, and maybe he ought to do that sometimes, but it's pretty much a guessing game as to when to do it.
Alternatively, we could get better guys, so we win the 1-on-1 more.
Your 1st paragraph: giggity.
Dilly dilly!
I don't agree with all the downvotes on the OP's comments. That being said, I'm still not really sure what you mean by a "pass."
You've seen the average rankings of Bud's defense since 2005. Clearly, more often than not (and for a very long time), he does really well. If he had a telltale weakness that you could just run the QB on him (any more than any team struggles to contain a running QB), well that would have been figured out a long time ago.
I'm not an Xs and Os expert by any means so if you have a specific breakdown of plays, scheme, that you think he needs to fix or change, I'm all ears and would find that quite interesting.
But realistically, he's facing the same thing that Coach Fuente and Cornelsen are trying to do to opposing defenses - find the defensive weak spots and attack them. Obviously, we expect them to succeed in that. It's not realistic to expect our offensive coaches to do that and at the same time expect opposing offensive coordinators to never succeed against us.
You have to evaluate it as a whole and that usually means the average. And Bud's statistics are pretty great.
The D wasn't out of position all night like your post suggests. Certainly there were moments where they were. But for the most night, it was just a terrible night from a tackling perspective... The boys just didn't tackle well. That is going to happen from time to time.
Add to that the fact that the offense didn't generate first downs most of the evening and you get a subpar defensive performance.
Please stop me if you've heard this before.....
#BudsgroupisgonnabeOK
In slo-mo it looked like many of the "missed" tackles were attempts at arm tackles by guys who were out of position.
You've got to be one of the most pessimistic fans on this board. Pretty much all you comment about is bashing some aspect of the team, whether it's running quarterbacks, the offensive line's inefficiency, or something else that's just a part of football. I don't know what you expected from this team back in August, but I'm pretty sure most people expected at least 2 losses by this point in the season. Losing to Miami on the road blows but it's not like we have to go back to the drawing board on how to win football games.
Please - good lord. I don't post that often at all.. drama queening doesn't add to the conversation either. Just say Bud did a great job Saturday and move on. I post in a thread once every two weeks- 99% of it not "negative"
Let me level with you. It's not that you have negative takes. It's that you have negative takes that lean on hyperbole and excessive snark with overuse of unnecessary dashes, ellipsis, and quotation marks.
Go whine to the host- feel free to "report" me if that is a thing on here. I don't use the F Bomb, I don't violate terms of service. I'm not going to post the way YOU want me to. Your style is equally annoying to me, and nobody will ever remember a thing you post on here, so there is that. Carry on, as I really don't care what you think.
I'm just explaining why you might not be warmly received by some. You're doing a fantastic job of proving my point for me though.
Since you are rarely correct, I'll continue to post as I wish and not rely on your "pulse" of the board. Thanks,
Hey man you whine to much
This is why I mostly stopped posting. If you don't fit in the mold they want, they just bitch about you. If you post a long thought out comment that most don't agree with, you either get down voted to oblivion or some smart ass picks out a single typo and comments on that. If you don't fit the circle jerk narrative here, they'd rather not have you and are not shy about it. Also, you got snarky with Fencer who is liked by most people here (and rightfully so). You had down votes piled on simply for that fact. If you had gotten snarky with me, you wouldn't have nearly the issues.
Well thought out points and discussion are definitely not unwelcome here, regardless of what stance they take.
Posting a bunch of opinions with no statistics/evidence to back it up and then being an asshole to people who call you out on it? Yeah that won't go well.
The post police seem to be out in full force the last couple of days, though. The defensive nature of this thread, accusations of disrespecting players in the thread about who should start at QB next year, etc.
Disrupt the apple cart, question anything and you get DVs. That's unfortunately the way things seem to go on this site.
I very very rarely see downvotes for anything being a condescending jerk. Although often I see people complaining about the occasional -1, which I honestly believe mostly just happens on accident (fat fingered downvoting on mobile).
I've upvoted a couple of posts in this thread with legitimate criticisms of the team that are backed up by the numbers, and I don't downvote for opinions alone. I think the rub comes from people with negative takes being more likely to make abrasive posts, frankly.
It isn't your opinions that are getting you downvoted. Its your pointed and personal disrespect towards anyone who does disagree with you that is.
for real. I hate that other sites only have up votes and no down votes. Unsurprisingly, I seem to find a higher occurrence of douchebaggery on said sites.
A lot of people don't understand the difference between those two things.
If people just downvote comments they didn't agree with Alum and I would have negative turkey legs.
A small price to pay for saying something that everybody knows, that Moe's is superior to Chipotle.
Extremely ironic you're accusing me of being a drama queen
Whatever- you throw out some "negative all the time" garbage and I post 99% positive things about VT football 3 times a month in specific threads. I should "add" to the board by posting overused gifs I suppose.
Children....please.
I actually think you bring up some reasonable points. You're going to get DVs bc that seems to happen any time anyone upsets the apple cart.
I think it's a couple of things, which have been the case specifically in the last few years:
tl;dr - Front 7 play hasn't been great over the past few years. We've had decent line play, but have not had a strong combo of line and LB since...
I said all along that they would struggle with Berrios and Herndon. That is more due to personnel (Motu/Edmunds/Floyd aren't great cover guys and Miami used formation to get them one on one with Herndon) and while Mook and Edmunds are ok, Mook has never been a lockdown cover guy and Edmunds coverage skills have diminished since bulking up to play safety. Keep in mind, they didn't have this issue when Bud had five corners in his secondary (Kyle-Facyson at corner, Kendall at nickel, Bonner at free and Jarrett at rover), but they were not as good in run support.
I think Bud's fault in this game was that, in the humidity, the lack of depth defensively bit them. The starters had to play a ton, and they were sloppy with their run fits, especially on inside zone reads where guys started eyeballing Rosier and that opened things up for Herndon. Their OL didn't block worth a squat the whole game. VT's guys ran themselves out of position. Outside of those handful of plays, their offenses was getting in four and five wide and throwing to the seams, minus AA's two PAs and the blown hammy.
I am also in the minority. I thought the first AA PI was the correct call. The second one was a little iffy, but AA had no reason to have his arm out extended. The impact may have been minimal but it was VERY visible.
My issue with the first AA PI was the arm was out, but it wasn't impacting the receiver at all. It was more I am matching speed by keeping my hand there. It wasn't grabbing, pulling, or impeding the WR so how could it be interference.
First AA PI was gonna get called no matter what, he smacked the dude in the facemask, the second one I do believe was a very bad call.
"Their O line didn't block worth a squat the whole game." Therein lies the issue, but that's a topic for a different thread. We were averaging something like 38 per gam coming in. We only needed 29.
My only issue with the defense was Bud talks about making a team one dimension normally by taking away the run. Miami's own coaches didn't trust themselves to run on third down. But we couldn't stop the run.
I got through a lot of this but not a lot of time to read all so down vote me if I missed something here. What I would like to know if possible is how often we got beat on designed QB runs as opposed to a QB pulling it down and making a play which in my football knowledge is a lot tougher to defend than the designed run. Especially with a QB with any athleticism. Foster's defenses play aggressive and I love that but sometimes left one on one is a tough place to be when there's a lot of room. So before I made the assertion it's on CBF that we can't stop a running QB I'd like to see how often our defense was exactly where they needed to be and how many of those yards above came from busted plays.
I was curious does Bud Foster's defense allow more QB Runs than other teams?
Rushing Yards Allowed by a QB
BC - 632 total yards - 70/per game
FSU - 455-57/g
UVA - 454-57/g
Wake - 483-54/g
UNC - 388-43/g
VT - 372-41/g
MIAMI - 265-33/g
CLEM - 292-32/g
PITT - 228-25/g
NCST - 228-25/g
GT - 150-19/g
DUKE - 157-17/g
LOU - 104-12/g
SYR - 95-11/g
Total Rushing Yards Allowed per Game
WF - 1882 yards total - 209/per game
UNC - 1860-207/g
BC - 1858-206/g
UVA - 1468-184/g
MIAMI - 1399-174/g
PITT - 1445-161/g
FSU - 1273 - 159/g
LOU - 1375-153/g
DUKE - 1320-147/g
SYR - 1275-142/g
GT - 1084-136/g
NCST - 1193-133/g
CLEM - 1115-124/g
VT - 1108-123/g
This year, I would say no. And I would wager to say every year its 'No'. It gets complicated when some of these teams have faced GT, or teams that the QB didnt need to run, or played against a lot of qbs who dont have a rushing quarterback (Syr).
The good news is VT has allowed the lowest overall rushing yards per game in the ACC so far.
I think a little bit our fanbases heartburn with QB rushing yards is that we're 1st in rushing defense but 9th in QB rushing defense. So compared to what RB's are (un)able to do against our defense, it seems like a good running QB is shredding us.
I would agree with you but its a 9 yard difference per game. I really just think its a false perception that only VT has a problem with running quarterbacks. In all fairness, its a numbers game, when ran correctly, there should be a hat on a hat and free man running the ball, especially with an option, and misdirection.
Of QBs with over 50 yards per game
Weve allowed QB rushing yards of 94, 84, 65, 52, 51
Clemson has allowed QB yards of 92, 64, 61, 53
FSU has allowed QB yards of 178, 109, 63, 55
Miami has allowed only QB games of 100, 79 yards and one of those was against Eric Dungy, so it doesnt have to be a Lamar Jackson to cause problems.
9 yards a game between us and Miami maybe, but it's 30/game between us and the #1 QB rushing defense (Syracuse)
again, we're solidly middle of the pack against QB rushing, while being #1 overall rushing defense (meaning far & away #1 against RB rushing). That kind of thing sticks out to casual/semi-serious fans and is why it gets harped on so much.
Thats a little bit why I prefaced it that it gets tough. Syracuse just hasnt really played anyone with running quarterbacks but Clemson and Miami and Kelly Bryant only ran the ball 4 times in their game. Syracuse gave up 45 yards on 9 attempts to Rosier.
It would probably be better analysis to look at yards per attempt by a rushing quarterback....but that would probably take a while, and maybe someone would know more assuredly, do sacks count as rushing attempts for the QB? I know the yards count against them.
But really, I was just trying to show other teams struggle with it just as much as we do, yet we still hold teams to less yards overall.
Because I was curious and not super busy today, I ran the QB yards per attempt against and also adjusted attempts to take out sacks.
Right smack in the middle.
Of course youd have to run this over a few years to see if it plays out. It would be interesting though, it looked like teams ran their QB more against VT, Clemson, BC, and Miami than they did against other teams on their schedule, now of course that sample size is tiny, but I wonder if those are more designed runs or those defenses just happen to get in the backfield more and cause scrambles...
I remember Bud making the comment years ago (I think it was in reference to GT when Johnson took over), that he designed his scheme against option plays to try and force the QB to keep the ball whenever possible. He wanted opposing quarterbacks to take a constant pounding because the hits would be more meaningful than various running backs taking those hits instead.
This is an awesome post, and interesting to think about.
Thanks for that and you're correct about what CBF said. It only works though, if personnel actually achieve the tackles and hits.
That's the entirety of defending the option. You must take away the dive and make the qb go to his second option. Keep it or pitch. You want the qb running around the end and you want to blow that up in the backfield. Either punish the qb for running or make him pitch and take the chance on a turnover behind the line with a poor pitch. Unless of course your laying on the ground clutching what remains of your tendons from the pulling linemans chop block.
Busted assignments happen to the best defenses all the time, coaches call plays, they can't make them!
The battle starts in the trenches and if we can win the line of scrimmage, we win that particular down. What we hope or wish for is to execute and win every play, down, series, quarter, and game as best as we can with what we have in all three phases of the game. It's not like we can plug in a game genie and use a cheatcode to be invincible...
Do you know how much a team, let alone ours, has to play, have the elite talent, and have the skill set to execute the perfect game plan and in-game adjustments? Sorry to bring up the past, but even our '99 championship run had struggles along the way!
I understand the frustration, but, this is year 2 of the rebuild under Fu, Foster and co. As much as it sucks to lose the HURLicanes, its not the end of times. Temper the expectations and enjoy the game and the throws of passion it gives us.
I know it didn't seem like the D played that well, but we limited Miami to 3 points less than their average scoring O over the season.
Meanwhile, their D limited us to 26 points less than our average scoring O.
Therein lies the rub.
All kidding aside. Errrrybody needs to take a chill pill. Fuente/Foster can't put this pie in the microwave. That would taste like garbage. Everything would be all uneven, and the crust would be soggy. It's going to take more time, but the pie has got to bake in the oven...for hours. That way we get the nice, golden brown, flaky crust and a delicious filling that's done just right.
I waited patiently for almost 9 years for Beamer to clean up Dooley's mess, and lift Hokie football to never seen before heights. It was worth it. From that we got Mike Vick, The Terrordome, lunchpail D, Thursday Night, and that we-might-not-be-blue-chip-recruits-but-we-will-kill-it-in-the-weight-room-and-come-out-and-punch-you-in-the-mouth-for-60-minutes swagger. Fuente's going to do the same thing. Since Beamer laid the foundation, it will not take 9 years, guaranteed, but it's not going to happen in 9 months.
Kick back, enjoy the wins when they come, and thank your lucky stars that we're not all stuck in Greenville.
Well said. We should enjoy the throws of passion, be it rough, wild, perfectly executed, with VT football.
Thank you Baltimore!
VT lost because the offense failed to score points. The defense did a fine job of limiting the candycanes. Please stop bellyaching about Bud's imaginary kryptonite and look at the facts. 10 points will not win many games no matter whoever your DC is or what scheme he calls. Our young and inexperienced offense got beat. They will improve, and more wins will come. For heaven's sake, quit blaming CBF for a problem he cannot fix. Rant over.
Holy hell. Didn't want to click on this, but did. You guys! We don't have a great team talent wise. I know losing sucks, but seriously just take a look at our team. This is not even close to some of the teams talent wise. We're having a fine season all things considered.
Bud Foster is the fing man. Most people would die to have coordinator like him. We're moving up in the world. Give it some time, barring Fuente doesn't leave to some SEC school.
I disagree with your assessment of our football team.
VT has a talented enough team to beat most NCAA teams outright. Against a team like Miami, VT has a talented enough team to have a chance with a good game plan and some luck. I agree more with others who have pointed out that Miami arguably had their best game of the season, while VT had their worst. VT was missing a couple of key players, and the game plan seemed a bit hobbled.
The current team has some weaknesses, particularly on offense. Wide receivers can't get separation. Running backs depend on good blocks to make plays. The offensive line is arguably the best VT has had in years, but when there's an injury, the drop in skill level is too great. If that's what you mean, I agree. There are some fixable problems. There needs to be some kind of passing game. Wide receivers need to catch the ball. All players on the offense need to protect the ball. The offense in general needs to get crisper. Players on defense need to complete tackles.
I'd be quicker to criticize fans that seem to have expectations out of line with the status of our program. I think VT is having a GREAT year given the status of the transition. I also think that while VT isn't the most talented team in the NCAA, there is plenty of talent on the team, even if it's not as uniform or deep as we'd like.
Where we might tend to agree is that if we want to be competitive with Miami, we are going to need to improve recruiting. With the current trajectory, Miami is going to get ridiculous.
I think you are missing the bigger picture here. Fosters defense forces three turnovers and we don't score off any of them. If those three turnovers turn into 21 points it's a whole different game. The point is it's a team sport. One unit feeds off the other. Just look at special teams, they played pretty good against Miami but it didn't win us the game. We held number 8 undefeated Miami to 14 points in the first half. The offense takes the L in this one pal. You have to give you defense a chance to rest and bud needs a little time to make some adjustments. By the time he's drawing one up he's already sending them back on the field. We are just going on the iffenseice side of the ball this year and it shows. We will be fine. I'm seriously looking forward to our 2018 team. I think we are gonna surprising a lot of folks including many of us on this board.
Once again, here's the list of defensive coordinators that can consistently shut down running QBs:
Dang I didn't even realize Comment Score was still coaching. We should try to get him on staff if he can consistently shut down running QBs.
Comment Score is overrated.
Comment Score gets a perennial pass, and I get that.
Here's a really damning stat for Bud from this past game: Miami's starting position.
Their average drive started on their own 33 yard line. If you take away offensive turnovers (including turnover on downs), that average drops to Miami's 22 yard line. That means that our offense gifted Miami, on average, 11 yards per drive.
Our drives started, on average at our own 30 yard line. Discounting drives that started off turnovers, that drops to our own 25 yard line. That means that our defense gifted our offense, on average, an extra 5 yards per drive.
Oh wait, these stats are damning for the offense, not for Bud. My bad.
Came into this thread expecting irrationality and incessant bickering over the irrationality
was not disappointed
Me opening up these recent threads and reading through the comments.
via GIPHY
Yeah, I kind of dread coming here after a bad loss. Normally stay away for at least a couple days so I at least calm down...
Yeah, this kind of shit is why I stopped reading the TSL message boards.
Doesn't seem like you get it at all.
Let me be the first to say this: I didn't read this thread.
Let me possibly be the first to say this...whenever the Defense gets 3 picks and Special Teams turns in a top-10 performance, we win 99% of the time if the Offense comes to play. Even with "career days" running by the opposing QB.