The ACC as a conference is arguably having its best football season with 11 bowl teams including 2 BCS bowl teams and FSU likely to win the national title. There is more that the ACC could do to further strengthen itself among the 5 football power conferences and I think this spring is the best time for the conference to make a big move going into the playoff era. Here's my proposal for the ACC to add Notre Dame, become the first 16 team power conference with 4 team divisions, and develop a 4 team conference championship playoff.
Problems with Current Division Alignment
There has been recent chatter in regards to further ACC realignment mainly because of Syracuse's AD emailing the other ACC ADs complaining the current structure. With the current way the ACC is constructed conference members could go a long time without playing each other, for example VT is only scheduled to play Louisville once in the next 10 years. Some proposals for cross division conference members to play each other more often that have been tossed around have been for teams to abandon permanent cross division rivalries or for the conference to play 9 conference games a year. The proposal for 9 conference games is highly unpopular for teams that play SEC rivalry games and the idea of getting rid of some yearly current cross divisions like Miami vs Florida State would be horrible for ACC marketability. There is one idea that could have conference teams play other members more often without adding a conference game and that includes going to the 4 team pod system.
When the conference realignment rumors were running rampant one idea that was pushed was that a conference that went to 16 teams could possibly split into 4 team pods similar to the divisions that exist in each conference within the NFL. If a 16 team league was to go to this system then theoretically within a 4 year cycle every team in the league could play each with the need to only play 7 regular season conference games a year and teams could keep a crossover rival. The only way that a 4 team, 4 division system would work in the ACC is of course if the ACC expanded from 14 full football members to 16 and there is one team that everyone in the ACC would like to add.
Adding Navy, Coercing Notre Dame
Notre Dame has lately been having a marketing push promoting their 6-5-1 scheduling. In their scheduling model they play yearly rivalries with USC, Stanford and Navy as well as playing 5 ACC games a year.
If the ACC was to add Navy then Notre Dame would play 6 ACC teams a year and I believe then the ACC could coerce Notre Dame into becoming a full member. With the old BCS system Notre Dame had a very favorable seat at the table in which it negotiated its way as being on par with the power conferences but the new playoff committee takes away that advantage. It's likely Notre Dame as an independent would be at a disadvantage in playoff committee eyes against a team with the same record but that also had to play in a high profile end of the year conference championship. If Navy was added to the ACC then Notre Dame would have the risk of going through just about a full ACC conference schedule without the reward of playing for the league title. I'd propose that Notre Dame joins the 16 team ACC in a pod and that to sweeten the deal could arrange it so that FSU ends up being the cross-over rival so that at least every other year they are in Florida for recruiting.
As far as the TV contracts go I think it could be a situation very similar to how it is now. NBC would still televise all Notre Dame home games like it does now but then the ESPN contract would apply to all games on the home turf of the other 15 ACC league members. The ESPN money would be split 15 ways and Notre Dame gets to keep their NBC deal. With ACC having Notre Dame on schedule for 4 ACC home games a year that should up the price in the TV deal.
Pod System in the 16 team ACC
Here's my envisioning of the alignment of teams in the pod system:
| North | Central | Piedmont | South |
|---|---|---|---|
| Notre Dame | Virginia Tech | North Carolina | Florida State |
| Boston College | UVA | Duke | Miami |
| Navy | Louisville | NC State | Georgia Tech |
| Syracuse | Pittsburgh | Wake Forest | Clemson |
With these pods each of the major rivalries for ACC would continue and the conference would have be split up in a way that makes sense geographically (maybe a few tweaks like switching Wake Forest and Clemson for competitive reasons). Each pod would match up with a different pod each year to form 2 divisions consisting of 8 teams. I'd envision that teams would play 7 regular season conference games against the teams in their semi-divisions and then there would be a cross-over rival that would occur to help keep teams happy with a yearly opponent.
Most of the old yearly matchups in my listed pod alignment takes care of bigger rivalries (FSU vs Miami, North Carolina vs Duke, Virginia Tech vs UVA). I feel as giving Notre Dame a cross over with FSU would substantially sweeten the deal for them to join the ACC as well. There could be a mechanism in place when a team plays the pod their rival is located in.
The winner of each 2 pod division would face each other in the ACC championship game. I think this will add some additional intrigue that the 2 teams in the championship 1 year could be division foes the next year.
I know it's an outside the box idea but I believe that it makes sense and could further position the ACC as a top football conference. I definitely think it's crazy that VT plays Louisville once in the next 10 years and FSU doesn't visit Blacksburg again until 2023.
Comments
I'm too lazy to get into details but the money involved in making ND a full-member is in the tens of millions...realistically, there's a very small chance this is going to happen.
Really impressed with the thought that went into this. I'm guessing ND would never go for it though - not as long as they have that NBC contract.
If we're playing with scenarios here, I'd rather see the ACC find some way to add West Virginia as No. 16 instead of Navy. Make VT, UVa, WVU and Louisville the Central Division and move Pittsburgh to the North. I may be in the minority here, but I'd love to still play the Mountaineers every year.
No, your not in the minority. And with the way teams switch conferences, why not switch after only 2 years in the Big 12. I know that people in Morgantown would probably agree with thist too, but is it realistic?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Neers have signed a waiver of rights agreement with the Big-12(10) that locks them into the league for more or less 10 years. Navy actually makes good sense geographically as a substitute for UM, and they make the pitch to ND seem more attractive. I actually love this idea from Joe, since it keeps the OOC schedule at 4 games, and gives the ACC champion 2 quality wins. The only thing I would change is the composition of the divisions to break up the NC teams and put one of them up north and one to the south. They would howl, of course, but the NC division is by far the weakest in football, while the southern division is a murderer's row with GT being the arguably weakest team in the group. I would move Clemson up and Louisville down into the NC Division, with NCSU coming up to us and Duke or Wake going down south. Too bad ND would never give up their precious autonomy to make it happen. Maybe after 10 years in a row of not making the playoffs, the ND folks will realize the importance of winning a conference championship and come to their senses.
Yeah, you are in the minority as WVU brings nothing but vulgarity....but I would rather see Navy and Pitt switched as Pitt is more of a northern school and Navy a mid-Atlantic.
WVU is a good rivalry. (exemplified by your post) They are my first choice...Bring 'em
I've been thinking about this....do it kinda like theNFL.....with 9 league games.....play your pod....one other rotating pod....then the team with the matching final "ranking" from the previous year from the other 2 pods....if that makes any sense....
I think you guys are making an assumption about the NBC contract being the albatross that would stop this. Remember that right now Notre Dame is a partial member playing 5 ACC games with the the home games belonging to NBC and the away ACC games belonging under the ACC contract. If ACC added Navy then it would be the 6th ACC team that Notre Dame would play and the same TV rights would be applied. Really all that would be done from a TV contract standpoint is that the ACC games at Notre Dame would be under NBC and the rest over the ACC TV contract with ESPN (in which the ACC could definitely ask for more money). Think of a situation similar to Texas with the Longhorn Network but being part of the Big XII.
Sounds good. I think you would have to divy up the south, though. There is no way that Clemson, Miami, GT and FSU would agree to be in the same pod and thus decrease their chance of automatic BCS every year.
Miami hasn't even finished 2nd in the Coastal, no way they want to finish 4th out of 4. They'd rather continue to finish 4 out of 7.
I proposed a similar 16 team concept back when the conference was adding Pitt and Syracuse. The twist with adding Navy makes sense by taking away another of ND annual rivalries essentially.
http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2012/october/5/sixteenth-team-schedule...
South = pod of death
Your proposed sub-divisions make sense geographically, but ultimately I think that your Piedmont and South groups would have to be mixed with two NC teams going into each. Something like [Clemson + GT + UNC + Duke] and [FSU + Miami + NC State + WF] That puts a somewhat established 'power team' in each sub-division (Notre Dame, VT, Clemson, FSU).
Now a question about scheduling... basically you play the 3 teams in your pod every year, and have 4 games against another other pod? I could see that being a problem because some conference teams are going to have 4 home games and some are going to have only 3. Realistically there has to be an 8 game conference schedule.
Having that 8th game be a semi-fixed rivalry match-up could help the pod system be accepted from the rivalry angle as well. For example UVA and UNC have the "oldest rivalry in the south" yet would only play 2/6 years under a pure rotation through the pods. By having them matched up in the off-years they maintain their rivalry and everyone rotates (home+home) through the entire league in only 6 years. The trick would be the scheduling of that 8th game for years where the two rivals face each other because their pods are matched up. Those could be some kind of regular secondary rivals, or they could be slots for marquee made-for-TV one-off match ups to help raise the profile of the league.
After thinking about this a bit more, it would be a lot easier just to have regular secondary rivals identified. Those 'secondary' rivals would wind up playing each other 4 times over 6 years, so they could pick up some of the rivalries dropped by going to the Pod system.
Using the pods I proposed above; GT could step in as our secondary rival in the years we're matched up against Pod4 & Miami. GT would be matched up against Pod1 teams those years, so their regular rival would have to be someone like Boston College or Navy, in order for GT to be 'available' for secondary rival games the same years we are.
I am loving all the pug gifs.
1 more:
Watch "Office Space- Samir Dance" on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QJXb2wC1JM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
"You want to add a 16th team, here's my number, so call me maybe"
- ECU
I get the joke, but ECU is joining the AAC. Is it still going to be an AQ conference?
ND will stay independant at all costs. As long as tv and nbc exist they will continue in this status.They attached to the ACC driven by fear of falling off the face of the cfb unviverse...they need the ACC more than the ACC needs them but as long as theyhave $ they will call their own shots.nice thoughts and well presented.
ND isn't going to join a conference until they have no other option. As long as they have the NBC deal and there's no pressure to join a conference or be left out of the BCS they won't join. Last year's title run probably is enough to keep NBC around, and the major conferences at this point have no interest in forcing ND to make the leap.
If you can swing it, being independent is the best way to go- you can set your own schedule, your games are televised, and you don't have to share any bowl revenue. The list of major schools that can do it is quite small.
IMO the biggest hurtle here isn't ND... it's the NCAA. They only allow one in conference post season game per year, and I believe no more than two divisions within a conference.
ND is smaller, can make changes relatively easily, and will be willing to if they are in the program's best interests. Changing NCAA rules is a total pain in the ass. (I tried to think of some witty analogy to explain how painful/challenging this is, but could think of no such situation anywhere else in life).
I think with 7 league games the first round of the 4 team playoff would technically still be regular season and the final conf would be the one and only post season league game. I like this proposal. Every team would still play 8 league games but the 8th game for each team would be the last reg season game and would always be tbd. The 4 best teams would have their first round playoff game and the remaining 12 teams would play each other based on seeding. Then the two winners would face off in the true ACCCG. That leaves 4 games left for teams to schedule ooc. The only downside is it could mess up rivalry week for a lot of teams. I personally don't think playing your rival around thanksgiving is of utmost importance but tradition tends to rule in CFB.
Note. Sent from my step moms iPad so forgive any editing errors. Thnx
With enough money the NCAA rules can be changed. It would just be a matter of convincing other conferences to go along.
ND's best interests right now are to stay independent and make piles of money every year. They're doing pretty well at satisfying those interests.
the 4 team pod thing is very logical to me. navy though? idk, maybe uconn or cinci. i hear what your saying to make them irish bait but i dont think they bring much to the table besides academics.
IF the ACC wanted to pursue this by adding Navy first, then MAYBE they could pressure ND into joining by using WVU as a possible 16th TEAM. If ND balks add WVU and stop scheduling with ND. Then they might be forced to join a conference They could join ACC or go crawling back to the Big10 that I hope would insist on full conference membership.
WVU is a giant downgrade from ND. I'd rather give up sports entirely than join a conference with WVU again.
Technically, WVU would be joining a conference with VT in it.
Yeah, ND to WVU is a downgrade for S.O.S., prestige, G.P.A., teeth-per-fan. But to play WVU again would be sweet in terms of rivalry. ND is chalk full of rivalries already; and VT will never be one of them. WVU is a rivalry, and a heated one at that.
If the ACC wanted WVU in 2011, they could have had WVU. They didn't want them. Neither did the SEC. The Big 12 took them because they needed a 10th team and picked WVU over Louisville. Whoops. WVU stabbed VT in the back in the 90s in the Big East. Letting WVU into the ACC now would be doing them a huge favor and I don't want to help them. They made their bed.
Have to look forward. WVU has a larger fan base like or not and name recognition. Plus, they are the Hatfields to Tech's McCoys. Doubt it will happen anytime soon but much better rivalry than playing teams like rutgers cincy louisville, pitt, ecu, western carolina upstate, directional mich teams, adams college, patron saint of the worthless miracle's school of typewriting and 'internet'-tiquite.......
If WVU had that big of a fanbase or TV market, either the ACC or SEC would have taken them in 2011. Instead the ACC took Pitt and Syracuse and the SEC chose Mizzou. Think about that for a second. I know we like to assume the ACC is full of idiots but ESPN's people told them Pitt and Syracuse were more valuable, and the SEC is not run by idiots and they wanted nothing to do with the 'Eers. Let them rot in the Big 12 and pretend that they've won out because they get to play Iowa State and Kansas.
Aren't we already restarting that series with WVU in the future? If so, no need to bring them into the conference, for reasons already stated (and some unstated).
I think its a 1 and 1- not sure if its more than that.
Right now that's all it is, any more scheduling will be up to the new AD. Those two games aren't until 2021 and 2022 regardless so still a long ways off.
i love this idea.
Just tire and sick of ND special status, they should be like every other D1 team, if were going to eventually have a true playoff system then they should join a conference, or fade away into medocrity. Should be same rules for everyone. Obviously ND would be better addition, than WVU but in end WVU would not be that bad if ND wants to be Independent. I think it could be an opportunity to call ND's bluff and force their hand one way or another. For better or worse the ACC at 16 would still remain a viable conference with stability and regional rivals.
Thought to add, use ND to get to NBc for acc network. I don't like the Navy add, but are cinncy for regional draw for ND.
I love trying to force Notre Dame in to the ACC or another conference. To be honest, I half expected the "board" to only allow schools who are members of an FBS Conference when the Playoff format was released. Although I enjoy the idea of the Pods, I prefer an 8 team division. Allows for a 9 game Conference schedule (7 division games, 2 cross-division (for VT: Louisville (changed from BC) annually and another team) and 2-3 OOC games plus the ACC Championship, keeping the regular season at 12-13 games.
All this being said, ND seemingly will consider literally sacrificing living creatures to keep their "autonomy" and the current playoff qualification rules. As a Fordham Grad (Catholic school rivals), my level of antipathy for ND is high, even though I know what they can bring.
as long as ND has $ they will write their own ticket.
I am sure they view joining a conference as a sign of weakness rather
than playing fair or by any rules but their own. The ice is broken, CFB will
soon grow tired of their special status.
Forget You Rudy.
just so I know 'antipathy' means you don't like them. got it.
dislike < antipathy < hate ~ UNC < ND < UVA?
UNC < MD < GT < MIA < FSU/WVU < ND/YOU!VA.
I like this idea a lot. I agree that adding Navy could coerce ND into joining the ACC as a full member, and adding Navy to get Notre Dame is a bonus for all of us. We should feel honored if they consider it.
The one thing that gets me about this idea, though, is the toughness of the southern contingent. I think you've divided out the conference as well as it could be divided, but the league is unbalanced with the power of the south. I saw a poster up a bit suggest mixing the divisions a bit to balance that out, and I agree with that. I think if you get Miami and FSU in the south, UVA/VT in the middle somewhere, and ND/BC/Navy in a division you should be good.
What is the thought about inter-pod games? Go to a 9 game schedule and intermingle who you play from the other pods (all 3 teams in your pod, plus two teams from each of the other three pods)? I like this, as it should allow any student to play home and away against all conference opponents in their 4-year careers.
Nicely done. I like this.
Much of this is rehash, but I already had it typed up.
Pods of 4 geographically "closest" schools:
Snowblowers: Syracuse, BC, ND, (Navy, Cinc, Rutgers, ETC)
Coalminers: Louisville, VT, UVA, Pitt
Shaggers: Wake, Duke, UNC, NCSt
Sweathogs: Clemson, GT, FSU, Miami
new TV market ranks: NY #1 (Rutgers), Houston #10, Cleveland #17, Charlotte #23, Indianapolis #25, Nashville #29 (MTSU), Cincinnati #34, Norfolk #43 (ODU), Memphis #48
3 OOC games, eliminate division rivals
Play fellow pod members every year (3 games)
Play one "cross" pod every year (4 games), "on-year" pod rotates, repeating every 3rd year
Year 1: A vs B and C vs D.
Year 2: A vs C and B vs D.
Year 3: A vs D and B vs C.
That's 7 ACC games, all common opponents between "on-year" pods to this point in season.
IntraPod rank 1-4 is based on your ACC W-L record to this point.
ACC games #8 and #9, play the off-year Pod teams of equal rank.
Game 8-9 opponents subtract travel costs from revenue and split profits. Opponents pick stadium.
Year #1, Pod A plays Pod B, so games 8 & 9 are A1 vs C1 then D1, B2 vs D2 then C2, and so on.
Year #2, Pod A plays Pod C, so games 8 & 9 are A1 vs D1 then B1, C2 vs B2 then D2, and so on.
Year #3, Pod A plays Pod D, so games 8 & 9 are A1 vs B1 then C1, D2 vs C2 then B2, and so on.
ACCCG: Two highest Conference record teams
Advantages:
Be the first conference to go to 16 teams...select from the best candidates.
Force ND to become full member or get off the pot.
Closest schools within pods should yield best attendance....
...and lowest travel costs.
Yearly intrastate rivalries maintained. Closest, potentially strongest rivalries are begun.
Players get to play against every school in the conference at least once.
Closest matched teams play at season end; the most interesting games and potentially more TV coverage/dollars.
The only possible repeat match-up is the ACCCG.
The best teams battle at the ACCCG; the strongest emerges to represent ACC in the National playoff.
Disadvantages:
Some old rivalries only get played every 3rd year.
Folks complain about uneven pod strength, but the "matching" of team strengths in games 8 & 9 negate this. Strength fluctuates over the years...realign based on that now, it'll change....geography doesn't.
Rutgers is joining the Big Ten this summer...
With Bitter giving press to his schedule idea I thought I'd bring this up.
Made some changes to make it a bit more conservative. Removed idea of 4 team ACC conference championship series idea and added the concept of the cross over rival (taken from DBU's comments).
Adding a paragraph on how I see the TV contract deal working out for Notre Dame with NBC getting to broadcast the home games and ESPN broadcasting games on the other 15 ACC teams.
Still keeping the geographic pod split because power can shift between teams and it's just easier to remember. Also feels as it keeps a lot of the rivalries in tact.