Early rumor is he was opting out. Then came and out said he was in. I know he played early in season (had a nice KO return) but then haven't heard or seen him in action. Maybe undisclosed injury?
He could really use a redshirt year. Not that it counts this year, but he need to focus on nutrition and adding mass (rather than game planning). Kid will be a beast if he adds 10-15 pounds and doesn't look his speed.
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Initial reports were that he had lost weight as well. He wasn't in a spot physically where they were comfortable letting him shoulder carries at that weight. Visually it looked to be the case but I don't know the whole story. I certainly hope we get to see him back in action in the future as he definitely flashed a lot of talent.
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He wasn't in a spot physically where they were comfortable letting him shoulder carries at that weight. Visually it looked to be the case but I don't know the whole story.
Yea, I've read that he didn't have access to proper food/fitness when the team was sent home for ~6 months over spring/summer due to COVID.
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I also heard that, and if it was the case then that is not his fault at all. Hopefully the team will have a full college S&C offseason and we can get him back on track to ideal playing weight.
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Yeah, this is reassuring. I'm really surprised this hasn't happened to more guys. I know from Hard Knocks that one of the rookie RBs was overweight coming into camp. As long as there aren't anymore long lockdowns KK should be back to normal soon!
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Gentry- an award winning SC coach was chided as "out of touch" "old" "Beamer lacky" etc. Hilgart is a clown- Busch league. Gentry's guys didn't bounce off of Duke or Wake players.
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No. He is just dealing with a lot of issues related to weight, COVID, sitting behind Upperclassmen. He has no desire to transfer as of Thanksgiving break.
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Or you're like me and will be shocked either way. Jaded enough to be shocked if Whit actually pulls the trigger. Frustrated enough to be shocked if Whit lets him stay.
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If it hasn't happened by 12/17 then that means it either isn't happening or that Whit pulled a bait-and-switch on every early signee. And I'm not sure I see anyone in this class worth facing backlash over for that kind of decision.
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When I was looking up about being held to NLIs with coaching changes, I saw an article that said 2019 had a large number of waiver requests to get out of their NLIs due to coaching changes (link). I'm having a hard time finding results on whether anybody was granted release or not. I imagine probably not because, unless a school had violations of some sort that prompted a coaching change (that an athlete didn't know about prior to signing their NLI), there's not really a good reason to let them out since coaching changes happen all the time. (Or potentially something like health of a family member, but not JUST because the coach changed).
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You don't want backlash from Jalen Stroman or Jack Hollifield, they're important for their VT family connections. But more than likely those guys are committed to the program, not the coaches.
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That's a good point, but I'm thinking more from the future negative-recruiting perspective. "If you sign with Tech there's no guarantee you'll have the same coach on your first day on campus. Their AD fired their last coach right after signing day, same thing could happen again just as easily." Better to rip off the bandaid right at the start of the early signing period, probably lose a few guys, and try to get the rest to stay committed to the program through the regular NSD in February.
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Yeah I doubt that happens, if anyone signs and then doesn't want to be with the new coach they'll more than likely be released from their NLI. Plus everyone who might sign should be aware of the situation. It's really no different than a lot of other places, I'm not worried.
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I said this in another thread, but will say again since the same conversation is coming up here - announcing after the early signing period would be bad, not because we might not get to keep the kids we want to sign, but because we might miss out on the chance to bring over some of the new coach's recruits if they sign during the early period. From that perspective, I'd think Whit might have an announcement waiting early in the morning.
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I don't expect one at all tbh. Especially not an overhaul. Not even sure if we get a better staff or even strength Nd conditioning. Which is saying something because the gains these gurneys make in 2.5 years seems to be done at 1-1.5 at other schools.
Couple that w/ no tackling technique (seems like everyone wants to boom a player out of pounds or arm tackle or get out of position) The fundamentals are lacking. No one wraps up
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I don't buy into the indictment of S&C staff this off-season because a kid came back under weight (he weighed in at 175). Having them off campus and having to eat and workout based on their own resources and discipline isn't something most 18-19 year olds will be successful with relative to what is needed in football. Not really sure what you want our staff to do - or anyone's. Compound that with Covid time away in-season and he just needs time - still a great prospect if he matures and puts his mind to improving. He wouldn't and won't play for anyone in P5 until he puts on solid weight and dedicates himself for an entire off-season or two.
That said this isn't a pass on coaching etc. I am saying it's a giant, unfair stretch to pin that on coaches. I'm also interested if a kid like this stays under a new regime. I'm simply saying between year 1 and year 2 is a bug deal for most players and that training time wasn't available for K2.
Combine this with a lack of discipline on his part - ex. Skipping practice the week of the ND game to be with his gf and the next day also being late isn't really evidence that he is going to push himself without oversight.
This next off-season will determine if he starts to become a good player or just was a good prospect.
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I'm not sure if some of the comments about the S&C staff are directly related to King - seems more like his weight was brought up, that S&C would need to fix it, and the indictments lie in what we perceive to be failures on the field as a result of poor S&C and therefore don't have a lot of confidence they can help King. Or maybe I'm misreading their points.
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It may have been mentioned before in this thread but my lord the physical development (weight room) to my eyes is light years behind the Beamer years. Especially the 1995-2005 teams. Tre hasn't gotten bigger or stronger, hooker the same, Ashby should be faster and stronger with his frame, I could go on and on but what in the hell is going on with the strength and conditioning program outside of Devine Deablo? Even king if he put on ten pounds of muscle the last 18 months would be an absolute stud. The Oline seems to be progressing in this manner but the rest of the team especially at skill positions don't seem to be doing the same....maybe I'm wrong and my eyes deceive me but I just don't see the physical improvement we used to have
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I agree there were some (like qp and deablo) that had some massive gains. I just meant overall and mainly the skill positions hadn't progressed like they had in the past from a strength standpoint. A lot of guys bouncing off of tackles on defense or not able to break tackles on offense. Just an observation which is why I asked the question...not focusing on the negative just posing the thought and question. Also could me a major technique issue as well or a bit of
Both
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I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's been a long slow realization that whatever it is he's doing isn't working, particularly when you consider this is a veteran team. Guys aren't faster, they aren't bigger, and/or they aren't stronger at the point of attack, even after years of being in the program. All that to say, the slow realization has come into full view at the same time that everyone is finally frustrated with the Wins and Losses.
Chris Coleman over at TSL talks about this quite a bit... In his estimation it's all about "buy-in". And for whatever reason his players aren't fully bought into the S&C program. Through his connections with people in the S&C world, he's being told that it appears there's a significant problem in that part of our program.
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We've seen players on the offense not wearing the number 21 take contact and go down easy this year. And we've seen the defense bounce off of guys after attempting tackles.
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If we had better strength and conditioning we'd be scoring in the 2nd half and would probably be 8-2, so yes, if we were 8-2 no one would be complaining.
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I have to think buy-in and self motivation play a big role. We have seen kids be successful with physical development under this S&C regime. Look at Dalton Keene and even Hewitt, Deablo. They have tried to fire the guys up. I like "Big Squat Friday" and hey, at least they put that on social media. Having said that, the guys that progressed most seem to be the holdovers from Gentry/Beamer and perhaps they had that intangible drive to succeed already in them that the current regime has been unable to instill in them. So even if it is a motivation issue and not technique, it is still an indictment on the program.
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100% agree. The issue isn't the S&C program. I think Hilg is a major upgrade and can do great things (players you mentioned above). The problem is buy-in. Not just the S&C program but across the board. Some players buy-in, devleop and showing results (Diablo, Darrisaw, Dax are great examples). The Darrisaw example is perfect, under recruited guy who works his ass off, and has played himself into a first round talent. Others just aren't fully engaged (think we call bake those examples). From not learning the playbook, how to read defenses/offenses, assignments, S&C, nutrition, film study, quarantine/partying, threatening to transfer/hold out/return, etc etc.
Sadly it comes down to leadership. I think Fu actually has a good plan. But his ability to get buy-in from players, recruits, coaches and especially fans is where the program has failed.
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This is similar to the issue with Fuente, people say that the offense has improved while ignoring bad recruiting and fan/media/donor relations. If Hilgart CAN get people bigger and better, but a lot of the guys aren't buying in and therefore not seeing results, I'd argue Hilgart isn't doing his job or isn't good at it. If there's more than like 3-5 guys who don't buy in, that's on the coaches, or the coaches somehow recruited players that don't want to get better, or aren't willing to do the work, or whatever the reason for not buying in. I just find it hard to believe we have a lot of guys on the team that are either too lazy to do the work or think they're good enough without doing it.
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I have a hard time believing that any P5 program has a S&C coach as bad as people are piling on Hilgart for right now. Sometimes, you have to have the right clay to make a masterpiece. I don't know enough to know whether the program is actually bad, but I think regardless, the effects of it are being blown out of proportion.
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Comments
Early rumor is he was opting out. Then came and out said he was in. I know he played early in season (had a nice KO return) but then haven't heard or seen him in action. Maybe undisclosed injury?
He could really use a redshirt year. Not that it counts this year, but he need to focus on nutrition and adding mass (rather than game planning). Kid will be a beast if he adds 10-15 pounds and doesn't look his speed.
Sounds about right
Initial reports were that he had lost weight as well. He wasn't in a spot physically where they were comfortable letting him shoulder carries at that weight. Visually it looked to be the case but I don't know the whole story. I certainly hope we get to see him back in action in the future as he definitely flashed a lot of talent.
Lost weight? Like this?
[mod edit: reduced image size]
Yea, I've read that he didn't have access to proper food/fitness when the team was sent home for ~6 months over spring/summer due to COVID.
I also heard that, and if it was the case then that is not his fault at all. Hopefully the team will have a full college S&C offseason and we can get him back on track to ideal playing weight.
Yeah, this is reassuring. I'm really surprised this hasn't happened to more guys. I know from Hard Knocks that one of the rookie RBs was overweight coming into camp. As long as there aren't anymore long lockdowns KK should be back to normal soon!
Gentry- an award winning SC coach was chided as "out of touch" "old" "Beamer lacky" etc. Hilgart is a clown- Busch league. Gentry's guys didn't bounce off of Duke or Wake players.
We need to bring back Gentry's disciple Shannon Turley. Would be such an upgrade over Hilgart.
Edit: Apparently was fired from Stanford last year for "undisclosed" reasons. Speculation is he (jokingly) exposed himself to a student-athlete during a conditioning session.
This...strength and conditioning is a BIG issue with this program.
Bullshit. You better go get yourself checked for neurocognitive problems, because you're having trouble remembering reality.
not only is this an abhorrent personal attack, it is, ironically, completely wrong
Let's hope the new staff can get him into shape and ready to go.
He's a RB that has fumbled once under Justin Fuente. That's all you need to know about him actually developing into a starter/contributor.
Undef Shane Beamer our running backs didn't fumble
damn straight...
Ye olde boxing glove on a stick!
He got Fuented.
Is this going to be one of those
after he transfers?
No. He is just dealing with a lot of issues related to weight, COVID, sitting behind Upperclassmen. He has no desire to transfer as of Thanksgiving break.
I'm really interested to see which holdovers that stay play under a new regime.
Are you saying that you know that there will be a regime change? 👀 👀 👀
I think everyone would be shocked if there wasn't one
Or you're like me and will be shocked either way. Jaded enough to be shocked if Whit actually pulls the trigger. Frustrated enough to be shocked if Whit lets him stay.
I assume we'll hear on December 16/17. Every day after that I'll be panicking thinking it's not going to happen.
If it hasn't happened by 12/17 then that means it either isn't happening or that Whit pulled a bait-and-switch on every early signee. And I'm not sure I see anyone in this class worth facing backlash over for that kind of decision.
Question. Even if they are locked into their NLI, couldn't they "transfer" without penalty due to a coaching change?
I think they'd have to take at least one semester of classes for that to work. So unless they're enrolling in January, I don't think they can.
When I was looking up about being held to NLIs with coaching changes, I saw an article that said 2019 had a large number of waiver requests to get out of their NLIs due to coaching changes (link). I'm having a hard time finding results on whether anybody was granted release or not. I imagine probably not because, unless a school had violations of some sort that prompted a coaching change (that an athlete didn't know about prior to signing their NLI), there's not really a good reason to let them out since coaching changes happen all the time. (Or potentially something like health of a family member, but not JUST because the coach changed).
You don't want backlash from Jalen Stroman or Jack Hollifield, they're important for their VT family connections. But more than likely those guys are committed to the program, not the coaches.
That's a good point, but I'm thinking more from the future negative-recruiting perspective. "If you sign with Tech there's no guarantee you'll have the same coach on your first day on campus. Their AD fired their last coach right after signing day, same thing could happen again just as easily." Better to rip off the bandaid right at the start of the early signing period, probably lose a few guys, and try to get the rest to stay committed to the program through the regular NSD in February.
Yeah I doubt that happens, if anyone signs and then doesn't want to be with the new coach they'll more than likely be released from their NLI. Plus everyone who might sign should be aware of the situation. It's really no different than a lot of other places, I'm not worried.
I said this in another thread, but will say again since the same conversation is coming up here - announcing after the early signing period would be bad, not because we might not get to keep the kids we want to sign, but because we might miss out on the chance to bring over some of the new coach's recruits if they sign during the early period. From that perspective, I'd think Whit might have an announcement waiting early in the morning.
If the Tony the Tiger rumors are true, we might pickup a few more croots.
I don't expect one at all tbh. Especially not an overhaul. Not even sure if we get a better staff or even strength Nd conditioning. Which is saying something because the gains these gurneys make in 2.5 years seems to be done at 1-1.5 at other schools.
Couple that w/ no tackling technique (seems like everyone wants to boom a player out of pounds or arm tackle or get out of position) The fundamentals are lacking. No one wraps up
I don't buy into the indictment of S&C staff this off-season because a kid came back under weight (he weighed in at 175). Having them off campus and having to eat and workout based on their own resources and discipline isn't something most 18-19 year olds will be successful with relative to what is needed in football. Not really sure what you want our staff to do - or anyone's. Compound that with Covid time away in-season and he just needs time - still a great prospect if he matures and puts his mind to improving. He wouldn't and won't play for anyone in P5 until he puts on solid weight and dedicates himself for an entire off-season or two.
That said this isn't a pass on coaching etc. I am saying it's a giant, unfair stretch to pin that on coaches. I'm also interested if a kid like this stays under a new regime. I'm simply saying between year 1 and year 2 is a bug deal for most players and that training time wasn't available for K2.
Combine this with a lack of discipline on his part - ex. Skipping practice the week of the ND game to be with his gf and the next day also being late isn't really evidence that he is going to push himself without oversight.
This next off-season will determine if he starts to become a good player or just was a good prospect.
I'm not sure if some of the comments about the S&C staff are directly related to King - seems more like his weight was brought up, that S&C would need to fix it, and the indictments lie in what we perceive to be failures on the field as a result of poor S&C and therefore don't have a lot of confidence they can help King. Or maybe I'm misreading their points.
It may have been mentioned before in this thread but my lord the physical development (weight room) to my eyes is light years behind the Beamer years. Especially the 1995-2005 teams. Tre hasn't gotten bigger or stronger, hooker the same, Ashby should be faster and stronger with his frame, I could go on and on but what in the hell is going on with the strength and conditioning program outside of Devine Deablo? Even king if he put on ten pounds of muscle the last 18 months would be an absolute stud. The Oline seems to be progressing in this manner but the rest of the team especially at skill positions don't seem to be doing the same....maybe I'm wrong and my eyes deceive me but I just don't see the physical improvement we used to have
This is the same S&C though that QP became a beast on. I remember there were a few other players, like Payote that were getting thick.
But of course, we only like to focus on the negatives...
I agree there were some (like qp and deablo) that had some massive gains. I just meant overall and mainly the skill positions hadn't progressed like they had in the past from a strength standpoint. A lot of guys bouncing off of tackles on defense or not able to break tackles on offense. Just an observation which is why I asked the question...not focusing on the negative just posing the thought and question. Also could me a major technique issue as well or a bit of
Both
The shift of people's opinions on Hilgart solely based on the wins and losses of the football team is not lost on me.
I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's been a long slow realization that whatever it is he's doing isn't working, particularly when you consider this is a veteran team. Guys aren't faster, they aren't bigger, and/or they aren't stronger at the point of attack, even after years of being in the program. All that to say, the slow realization has come into full view at the same time that everyone is finally frustrated with the Wins and Losses.
Chris Coleman over at TSL talks about this quite a bit... In his estimation it's all about "buy-in". And for whatever reason his players aren't fully bought into the S&C program. Through his connections with people in the S&C world, he's being told that it appears there's a significant problem in that part of our program.
I don't buy for a second that people would be complaining about strength and conditioning if the team was 8-2 right now.
We've seen players on the offense not wearing the number 21 take contact and go down easy this year. And we've seen the defense bounce off of guys after attempting tackles.
Which can just as easily be attributes to technique and coaching or natural physical talent. Solely blaming strength and conditioning is stupid.
If we had better strength and conditioning we'd be scoring in the 2nd half and would probably be 8-2, so yes, if we were 8-2 no one would be complaining.
This is a ridiculous oversimplification to try to refute a statement that is plainly correct.
I was being facetious, which hindsight should have used/s.
I have to think buy-in and self motivation play a big role. We have seen kids be successful with physical development under this S&C regime. Look at Dalton Keene and even Hewitt, Deablo. They have tried to fire the guys up. I like "Big Squat Friday" and hey, at least they put that on social media. Having said that, the guys that progressed most seem to be the holdovers from Gentry/Beamer and perhaps they had that intangible drive to succeed already in them that the current regime has been unable to instill in them. So even if it is a motivation issue and not technique, it is still an indictment on the program.
100% agree. The issue isn't the S&C program. I think Hilg is a major upgrade and can do great things (players you mentioned above). The problem is buy-in. Not just the S&C program but across the board. Some players buy-in, devleop and showing results (Diablo, Darrisaw, Dax are great examples). The Darrisaw example is perfect, under recruited guy who works his ass off, and has played himself into a first round talent. Others just aren't fully engaged (think we call bake those examples). From not learning the playbook, how to read defenses/offenses, assignments, S&C, nutrition, film study, quarantine/partying, threatening to transfer/hold out/return, etc etc.
Sadly it comes down to leadership. I think Fu actually has a good plan. But his ability to get buy-in from players, recruits, coaches and especially fans is where the program has failed.
This is similar to the issue with Fuente, people say that the offense has improved while ignoring bad recruiting and fan/media/donor relations. If Hilgart CAN get people bigger and better, but a lot of the guys aren't buying in and therefore not seeing results, I'd argue Hilgart isn't doing his job or isn't good at it. If there's more than like 3-5 guys who don't buy in, that's on the coaches, or the coaches somehow recruited players that don't want to get better, or aren't willing to do the work, or whatever the reason for not buying in. I just find it hard to believe we have a lot of guys on the team that are either too lazy to do the work or think they're good enough without doing it.
I have a hard time believing that any P5 program has a S&C coach as bad as people are piling on Hilgart for right now. Sometimes, you have to have the right clay to make a masterpiece. I don't know enough to know whether the program is actually bad, but I think regardless, the effects of it are being blown out of proportion.