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Well, we aren't in tier 8, 9, or 10. That's about all the good I can say about that.
We are apparently the C+ students of football now.
We're above lolUVA? We're not UConn or Kansas? That's all I got. I'm gonna go mope now
That's disheartening..
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
It's about right along with the recruiting classes. Not surprised at all.
Currently 11th out of 14 teams in ACC in 2021 with 27 recruits, three schools behind us have 18, 20, and 20 recruits. Duke has a higher average per recruit. Essentially we beat out Syracuse and Wake Forest.
That list put Penn State in tier 2 after they started 0-5 last year. Along with 4 teams replacing record breaking quarterbacks, including Texas who has a brand new coach. That should tell you everything you need to know about this list.
They lost a few key players before the season and had a bozo at QB. Penn State as a program under Franklin is in a good spot, which I think is more what this list is aiming at as opposed to recent 2020 season success. At one point they had Fields committed and that could have made a huge difference for them. They are talent-wise not too dissimilar to pre-Deshaun Clemson, meaning they could quickly elevate on field with above average QB play. I couldn't imagine them being lower than tier 3 at worst. They have three 11 win seasons in their last five including a conference title, and that is in a conference with a true elite tier program in their division.
It's not a list about the state of the program and its future. It's his tiers for the 2021 season and he's essentially saying Penn State is knocking on the playoff's doors.
I mean he put LSU in tier 4 and they literally just won the national championship 2 years ago.
I misinterpreted that short term view aspect it seems, but I certainly stand by my assessment of Penn State as a program compared to ours.
For the record, I don't think this list can't be criticized, but the "just look at [one thing] to know this [whole thing] is garbage" is one of my least favorite criticism templates.
Hale knows he needs to wind people up a little bit and has more than proven his willingness and enjoyment in doing so. I don't agree with all these tiers collectively, but I do agree that we are a lesser program than we once were, and that Penn State is actually in a place as a program where they have a shot at elevating with the right key pieces.
Also in the short term LSU is in a rough patch right now. Booster/NCAA issues AND Title IX stuff in the background, multiple starters transferring and rumors of more. They still have insane talent but there are a lot reasons to be bearish short term, even though I personally think they improve a lot next year.
I pointed out a reason I had an issue with 5 teams he has in Tier 2. Penn State and Texas being listed in the "next ones in" group with all the question marks in those programs right now is questionable at best. So yea with that Tier 2, I pretty much lost complete interest in this article. I agree with our tier so it's not even just me being upset about our placement. Honestly the only team ahead of us that I laugh at is Tennessee. If you think they have a better shot than us at the playoffs next year with a brand new coach, our backup qb as their now starting qb, their best players exiting the program left and right, and all while being in the SEC.... then i don't know what to tell ya.
Also go ahead and look at the issues we were dealing with our first 5 games versus what Penn State was dealing with. Between the Caleb opting out, Waller being hurt, Deablo and other players being out due to COVID, our coaching staff missing games, and just the other injuries that occurred, we still went 3-2 and we lost our minds as fans. They went 0-5 and were lucky they played who they did down the stretch to avoid worse.
I think it's a little unfair to say this...Hooker started for us through the bulk of our season and, outside of whatever weird thing happened in the Clemson game, he played pretty well. He seemed, to me, to be the better option for most of the year. Burmeister had one decent game, which honestly may have been partly due to the fact UVA had to prepare for both Hooker and Burmeister (and it was UVA).
Otherwise, your point still stands.
True I could have worded that differently but with how the season started and finished, I'm under the impression BB would have been the started all along had it not been for his foot injury. That's just me assuming though so costarter would have been a better description.
I'm not convinced BB would have been the better option. Our offense actually looked a lot better when Hooker first came in than it did with BB. At least it looked that way for a few weeks until teams figured out that Hooker wasn't going to beat them with his arm. Then they took away the running game and we couldn't take advantage. At that point, BB was the better talent because I think he's a better option in the running game. But, he absolutely wasn't a threat to throw the ball, at least not early in the year. We don't really have a QB in Blacksburg. We just have guys who can run the ball and sort of throw it. Kind of. For a QB whisperer, it's pretty disappointing that he hasn't been able to find a guy who can throw the ball reliably.
Hooker looked less and less like a P5 qb once the film showed all the ways we were going to trick people in the play action or RPO passing game. When he had to read and react, the results usually ended up in sack or short gain on a scramble. BB doesn't inspire a ton of confidence, but he did show the ability to extend the pass play beyond a read. Beyond that, I have to ask who gave Fuente the title QB whisperer, because we tend to punish him for it as if he gave himself that title.
I'm not arguing that Hooker was a P5 caliber QB. I'm arguing that BB isn't much better, if at all. I don't think it's fair to say Hooker was our backup. He wasn't. But I also wouldn't go as far as to say he's a P5 caliber starting QB either. Therefore, the overall point still stands; I just don't think characterizing Hooker as our backup is accurate.
I don't know where the "QB whisperer" title came from but I didn't make it up. He was billed as an offensive minded coach who could coach up QBs when he was on the market. I've been disappointed with his performance in those regards (and yes, I realize that the responsibility is more on Cornelson but Fuente is accountable and if Cornelson isn't doing his job adequately [IMO, he isn't] it's Fuente's job to replace him with someone who will).
I dont know what we have at qb either. But if you asked me which qb has a better chance to suddenly break out, I would say BB simply because he hasn't had as long to prove that he won't.
Also, I haven't been vocal about this because I don't think I know enough about what actually went down during that Clemson game. But right or wrong, I was soured on Hooker after that. Then I feel guilty because I feel that way because there was a time there that I thought something was physically wrong with him. If not, he got cold....what the hell. Whatever, I am just being honest. And I was a really big Hooker fan coming into the season.
this is an interesting perspective. I can't argue with it. I guess we'll see what happens.
I don't know what happened to Hooker either and it was weird AF but up to that point he was starting over BB for a reason. Even so, he wasn't a great QB. I think we're both getting at the real issue and that is that VT doesn't have a real QB in Blacksburg. And going into year
62, for a guy touted as an offensive mastermind and QB whisperer, that is a very real problem.Yeah we are converging on the real issue. Although, I will say that Whit did slip in his infamous press conference that they have now found their quarterback. I assume that meant BB and I assume that means at least two prominent leaders within the athletic department thought they were upgrading. I am not yet convinced, but I do like to think that regardless of how good this staff is at developing quarterbacks, they know a shit ton more than me.
At the moment, I do not believe it is defensible to suggest Burmeister is a better QB than Hooker at all. As soon as Hooker was healthy, cleared to play he took the job back from Burmeister and completely flipped the UNC game on its head, but it was too late. He then remained the starter until whatever bizarro issue (that I don't want to speculate on) happened in/around the Clemson game.
I hope Burmeister has a great season for us and develops tremendously as a passer, but these are his career stats, and many of the complaints Oregon fans voiced about him came to fruition for us.
DIdn't they bring Hooker back in after Burmeister got hurt against UNC?
Yes, that was the first week he was cleared (IIRC) and he outperformed him substantially after being put into the game.
And Burmeister outperformed against Clemson. It is tit for tat. Hooker regressed with film.
I would say the sample sizes they got against each was not similar to the UNC game but sure, Burmeister was the better QB in a game where we scored 10 points. Look at their seasons and careers. There is no evidence Burmeister is better at the moment. Lower ypa, lower ypc, worse rating, lower comp%, etc.
I agree it was largely unacceptable that Penn State started so terribly, but I don't think it was representative of where they are at as a program. That was all I was getting at.
I'm sure Penn State fans were losing their minds as well at that start, but it's a lot easier to say "well this is just an aberration, we will get back on track," when you combine the on-field excuses of the COVID season/opt outs with a top 25 class (they only took 15 players this cycle, for comparison we finished 76th with our 16 person 2020 class), and their previous classes rank 15th, 12th (247 inhouse had this class 3rd which seems like an oddly huge discrepancy), and 6th. They are in a place where they have talent and multiple 11 win seasons under Franklin in a relatively tough division. I think the big difference in how we reacted to our struggles last season, such as losing to Wake, Liberty, and getting blown out by Pitt is that we don't have promising talent to fall back on. At the moment, we just don't have a lot of positive indicators to point to in order to be optimistic about the future, which amplifies the failures of the present. We won 19 games in our first two seasons under Fuente with mostly Beamer's players and now we have won 19 games in our last three seasons combined with our last two classes being the lowest ranked ones under Fuente. I think there is some hope left to be had in our 2021 class having some underrated players because of COVID/lack of senior film/camps, and I believe we might pull some solid contributors out of the 2020 class like Strong has looked so far. It will be interesting to see.
The list was created by ESPN. That's all you needed to know to determine the credibility of the list!
Penn State is one of the 15 teams who has a >50% blue chip ratio, which is (historically) a requirement for a National Title. Despite everything that went wrong for them last year, they had a top 10 SP+ defense, and a top 25 SP+ offense. From the piece:
IF (and this is a big IF) the new OC clicks at PSU, they have a path to the playoff. OSU breaking in a new QB, Michigan looking meh... It's a bold take, but it's hardly unreasonable.
But they completely discount 4th quarter coaching which really makes it almost impossible for PSU to win the title as they are going to have to be so much better than everyone else that its not close ever.
My take is that no matter how much blue chip talent Penn State has, Franklin is a crappy coach. I don't see PSU making the playoff under Franklin, and I see his tenure in Happy Valley coming to a sad end within a very few years. Did I mention Franklin doesn't impress me at all as a coach...
I find it interesting that LSU is in tier 4. Given their talent this seems to stem heavily from their off-field issues and less than rock solid belief that O is a true program sustaining coach as opposed to someone who can swing a one hit wonder, like maybe a Larry Coker at Miami.
Hard to argue.
Our bad recruiting is going to hurt us severely sooner rather than later. This very well could be the beginning of a very bad era of VT football.
Jus' tryna help. Sorta? Not really. (siiiigh...)
It sucks, but.......
Now to prove them wrong
Damn right...
well,
on the plus side, if we're a "resume builder" type of spot, we'd be attractive to up-and-coming head coaches who are hungry to prove themselves. Those types of coaches, should we land one, would undoubtedly make us better, at least in the short term. The trick would be leveraging that into continued success to break out of that tier and elevate the program.
after actually reading (parts of) the article the part that stings the most is the description of tier 6 teams:
The common refrain around TKP is that we're recruiting way below where we need to be to be where we believe this team should be. And this ranking reinforces that idea.
Also, according to the article, we are a resume builder in terms of benefiting the resume of top tier teams if they beat us. Beating us is good for a team like Notre Dame compared to beating a team like Duke. That's how the article positions it.
Ehh looking at the others in the tier it really has nothing to do with getting a win that makes you look good. No, it's pretty much that we are a patsy that is an expected win for anyone with aspirations of bigger and better things. We exist to pad the win stats of actual contenders.
According to this, our name doesn't even carry the 'big game' weight that it used to before Fuente got here.
I was just sharing what I read in the article, not making an argument for it. VPIhokieME appeared to be reading the tier as helping build the resume of our coach. I was just clarifying that is not what it meant
After my initial comment I went and read most of the article and realized that I misinterpreted what was meant by "resume builder" and then promptly came back to TKP to edit my comment. After re-reading my comment though, I thought that even though I had misunderstood what was meant by "resume builder" initially, my comment still sort of applied. A team that is a "resume builder" for "playoff contenders" also happens to be a team that is on the cusp of more success if they can get the right coach and some good recruits. So, although I admit that I understood the use of "resume builder" incorrectly, I stand by the idea that I think VT is an attractive job for up-and-coming coaches who want to prove themselves. We've dropped off enough to have lowered expectations (I mean, how many people around here would be ecstatic for a new coach to come in and win 8 games?) but we still have the potential to crack into one of the top 4 tiers with relative ease. On our steep decline over the last couple of years we've reached the point where this would be a great job for a talented coordinator to get their first HC gig and try to prove himself (or herself, I'm not trying to silo anyone here) as a quality head coach. If we continue our slide for a few more years we'll be in tier 9 (or 10) and past the point of "exciting opportunity for young up-and-comer"
Look at the other teams in the list and tell me if that's the vibes you get
I don't think it meant that kind of "resume builder"
yes, I think you're right. I also still think what I've said is true.
Yeah, I think what you said is pretty valid too
Hale is trying to get readers riled up.........and it worked. His article is his opinion and I disagree with many of his rankings/groupings, but can't disagree that we've fallen from grace. Very sad.
Yeah Hale is good at what he does, which is rile up discussion and a little outrage here and there. I've discussed before how I personally find myself rolling my eyes at some of the gymnastics he has used to prop up Clemson's schedule as being not terrible or trying to spin things to make the ACC look better than it is, BUT that's also his job to do those things. He's the ACC guy for ESPN.
Overall, I find myself aligned with your comment the most. I can nitpick choices I disagree about with tier designations, but overall I can't disagree that we are in a lower tier than we used to be, plain and simple. Here's to hoping that "resume builder" tier can be a jumping off point to climb back up.
Ha! Just thought of this.....maybe Hale knows of which he speaks......Darryl Tapp moves on to bigger things. Very happy for Tapp.....still very sad about Hokies.
Considering we have losses to "lower tier" schools in the last few years, we might be a bit high especially given our coaching and recruiticorning limitations...
Big ooof there. Gut shot.
Should a "resume builder" program be paying their head coach over $4m/year? I don't think so...but what the hell do I know. Amazing how far us and Stanford have fallen.
Hard to argue? Yes. But being in the same category as Biberty in anything? ...'scuse me while I go light a large mountainside shrubbery on fire.
Also, Notre Dame knocking on the door? Bwhahahaha. Just because they sneak into the party from time to time because of their name doesn't mean they should be there.
Yeah I think their team this year lacked three key pieces, and they are pretty big ones.
They did not have an elite QB. I respect the hell out of the progress Ian Book made this season, and particularly his performance against Clemson in their first matchup, but his ceiling at QB was below elite. They also did not have the dudes on the outside (though they may have as recently as last season, see: Chase Claypool). Third, they did not have the dudes outside at corner. It's tough to have all three of those things at the same time, when you are in ND's position, which I do believe is not too far below title winning tier (for example, they were very strong in the front 7 and OL).
For anyone not clicking on the article, it's important to note that this piece is looking at the 2021 season in a vacuum; it's not meant to be a ranking of where different programs stand in CFB.
And UNC is the second team in tier 2. We will have the chance to flip some scripts in week 1.
It's ok if we suck guys! It's just for next years outlook. Fu is taking a huge leap in year 2 (6 really but whatever).
Another data point that people will either excuse for (insert reasons), but I think we all know that we are becoming something nobody wanted five years ago.
I think Fuente would have been let go if this had been a normal season and we had a losing record. I think if we have a similar record next year he will be gone.
However, I think we're gonna turn it around this year. Why? No reason in particular, by all accounts the talent level on the field is gonna be even lower. I just think we start winning when we have nothing left to lose. Its always darkest before the dawn?
yes, it is (just look at my sig line...)
But the dawn will be a new coach. 2021 is going to be ugly. Fuente has proven nothing more than he's just not suited to be a P5 HC
I'm not saying these rankings are necessarily stupid, but it's kinda crazy that in an article outlining the 10 tiers of college football, Tier 7 is still "borderline top 25 team," Tier 8 is "fine - solid G5 and other schools," and then Tier 9 is "yikes, look at the bad P5 and everyone else."
The amount of analysis that went into this is just kinda dumb. Leave it to ESPN to make a chart where roughly a third of the tiers are about playoff teams and encompass only 15% of the teams in FBS. It's clickbait-y and doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know about VT. We'll probably suck, but we'll also probably make it into the top 25 at some point because we'll win four straight against some bad teams and like one P5 or ACC opponent.