Exactly. I remember Todd McShay saying earlier this season that he thought (like we've been saying the last 2 years) that LT3 has probably the least amount of help around him out of all the legit NFL QBs in the draft. If, like you said, he can show teams that he can put the ball on the money and prove that a lot of those picks/incompletions weren't his fault (let's face it, look at the Bama game. There's only so many times a ball can hit the WR in the face, hands or chest before you stop blaming the QB), I think he could definitely surprise some people with how high he goes.
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but accuracy is the thing with logan. it begins and ends right there. sometimes he's deadly accurate making nfl throws all over the field, other times he's boinking balls off a railing in section 9. i'm sure his interviews will go well and he'll crush all the sprints and jumps and lifts. but if he's inaccurate like we know he can be at pro day or the combine and he'll drop like a rock.
i think he's in a great situation. he's not gonna go in the first round but someone will see all that size and strength and work ethic and will fall in love with him. hopefully he goes to a decent franchise and learns behind an established starter for a couple seasons instead of going to a team that will expect him to be the savior right away.
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Every single "NFL Caliber" college QB I've seen play this year made the same mistakes and poor throws that LT3 did. Is LT3 the top 5 pick everyone thought he could become? No. Is he a legitimate NFL QB prospect? Yes.
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You don't have the physical gifts he have, even with the good to decent career numbers, and not gain interest from NFL teams. He won't be a starter this year, but he's too gifted to be passed up in the draft.
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You aren't the only one wondering about his decision making. There have been too many times he has throw into double and triple coverage for me to not wonder about his decision making.
I think he is a 5+ round selection right now that some team will take for a project. I can see the Saints, Patriots, Packers, or Broncos be willing to go level for a project that might be ready to step in when their QB leaves.
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Happily, we saw his decision making get much better later in the year. MUCH fewer head-scratchers and 2x coverage throws. Probably the result of more reps in a more sophisticated passing offense, going through progressions, etc. Real shame he was only coached by Lefty for a year.
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He was unfortunately released by them shortly after and the only articles mentioning him since October have been saying the Cowboys are bad at drafting and citing him as an example. =(
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Logan's biggest flaw is his pocket presence. He has a tendency to keep drifting backwards after getting the snap, rather than stepping into the pocket. This was a cause of a lot of his bad plays, either because he wasn't able to set his feet to make an accurate throw or because he backed right into an outside speed rush.
If teams feel like they can teach Thomas how to maneuver around in the pocket, they will take the risk of drafting him. His ceiling is too damn high to pass up 7 times.
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Agree. I think his ceiling is so high that teams will take him rather high to come in and be a backup for a few years before getting a starting gig somewhere.
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Am I the only one that thinks he might be better off getting drafted as a TE? His size and, like mentioned before, work ethic are huge pluses, and I think he's more than capable of learning how to play like an NFL TE. Might not be the fastest guy out there, but he'll get after ya (had to) with his power. I could see him following in the same vein of Antonio Gates, albeit Logan is a tad taller.
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I don't know Gates's background but I don't think a team would draft Logan as a TE if he's never ever EVER (just for a clarity) played the position. That just seems far too risky. I could see teams letting him try out as a free agent (if passed up on in the draft) as a TE, but to draft him as anything other than a QB seems too insane for an NFL organization to do.
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I also think people misunderstand what his size means to an NFL team. Him being 6'6" and built like a linebacker doesn't mean a team will look at him and think TE. They'll look at him and say, that's a huge QB, we want him!
Plenty of NFL owners would dream of having a 6'6" kid playing QB, not TE.
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Yeah that was my thought as well, but you never know how things will pan out. Someone in an above comment mentioned him being at a team like the Saints behind Brees. I immediately had the image of a SI cover with tiny Drew Brees sitting on massive Logan Thomas's shoulders.
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I was just about to make a "am i the only one" post saying the same thing.
I think the Sun Bowl did wonders for his stock as a TE. He had a few good run plays where he showed a burst and the ability to make quick cuts. The Myles Jack truck run showed how hard it is to bring him down (translating to YAC) when he's a ball carrier. After he left the field with that defenseless knockout hit, he appeared to have shaken it off pretty quick whenever they showed him on the sideline.
I think teams will ask him to workout at TE for the combine/pro day just to get a look at him. I think if he can show decent footwork in blocking drills and shows decent hands, I could see him being a 2nd or 3rd round TE.
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No NFL GM in their right mind would ever use a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick in order to get a player that they want to play a position THEY HAVE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE.
If he plays TE, it's because no one drafted him as a QB. And I highly, highly doubt that will ever happen.
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No team is gonna draft a player at tight end when they can throw the ball half a mile flat footed either. People aren't gonna give up on the tight end thing are they?
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Ehh I agree but be careful not to get too mesmerized by the big arm thing. IIRC JaMarcus Russell could throw 60 yards from his knees but that didn't help him in the pros.
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I think manziel will have a rude awakening if he's not drafted by the lions, since he won't have a ridiculous wide receiver that can just out jump everyone on defense to make catches in triple coverage.
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Yeah and I really doubt (and hope he doesn't) he goes to the Lions... which would be entertaining IMO. Imagine the fun-to-watch chases of him running for his life with Suh and Fairley hot on his tail. I think that would be a really quick reality check.
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I have amended an old phrase - "Close enough is only good enough in horseshoes, hand grenades, and Johnny Manziel's throwing arm when Mike Evans is on the field." The kid's a hell of an athlete, but his receiving crew, especially Evans, made him look a hell of a lot better.
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Manziel fan here; After setting QB records in the SEC for the last two years, I think he'll do just fine in the NFL.
Didn't any of you see the 52 pts he put up on Duke? Logan and VT had 10. Winston and FSU had 45 against the Duke D, but had a much more balanced team than TAM.
Manziel might be a bit immature and small, but he can throw with accuracy, scramble and improvise. Reminds me of MV7 with a better accuracy.
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That's a little bit much, I think. Manziel was great against Duke, but lets keep in mind the relative scores of the Duke games when comparing FSU and T A&M - FSU did not HAVE to score 52 points to win, otherwise, I think they could have. That game was just over by halftime.
As for the Vick comparison... pump the brakes. Manziel is exciting and dynamic, but he's not really anything like Vick. His arm isn't as strong, and he's not nearly as much of a home-run threat. They're totally different players. A better comparison might be Archie Manning at Ole Miss.
It wouldn't shock if Manziel succeeds in the NFL, but it wouldn't shock me if he didn't either. I imagine we'll see what the NFL decision makers think of him in a few months, I guess, but I'd be surprised if he was in the upper half of the first round.
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Comparing someone to JaMarcus Russell is pretty much equivalent to comparing someone to David Wilson. Except instead of unfairly assuming someone will be ridiculously athletic, you're assuming they'll be ridiculously lazy, show up to camp at 265+ and do absolutely NOTHING to improve himself once he gets to the league.
I'd say Logan is a hard enough worker and intelligent enough to be a successful NFL QB.
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I completely agree. My intended point of emphasis was on "be careful not to get too mesmerized by the big arm thing". I wasn't intending to make any remote form of character relation to LT. I should have bolded that the first time to avoid confusion.
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I feel like LT is a boom or bust NFL QB. I see him as having more/larger hurdles (accuracy & decision making) to being a good NFL QB than he does to be a good NFL TE/H-back. Personally, I'd rather see him represent the Hokies in the NFL for 10 years as a contributor to an offense, than to be on somebody's bench or a 3 year dud (a la Tebow).
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Yeah, on 2nd thought, a 2nd or 3rd may be a little high, but GMs have done it in the past, so I don't think it's as ridiculous as you make it out to be. I was going to detail some QBs who were drafted for different positions myself, but this site has already done it for me: http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/college_qbs_position_switch/
Matt Jones, who broke some school passing records at Arkansas, and Michael Robinson (who did play some RB his fresh and soph years) from Penn St, were 1st and 4th rd picks respectively, with their teams intending them to play positions other than QB. Jones worked as a WR at the senior bowl, while Robinson worked at QB.
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Very good point. There are always exceptions. Robinson actually went to my rival high school and is currently an NFL FB with the Seahawks (like you said), but he never had that FB build back in the day. I think he was definitely a late bloomer into that position.
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Yeah, he lived in my neighborhood and my big brother played with him in rec league and high school. He definitely had/has more of a RB build than a FB, but his toughness, strength, and football IQ made him serviceable lead blocker, and his ball carrying ability and hands make him a offensive weapon.
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It's happened before. Antwaan Randle El was a 2nd round draft pick as a WR after being a college QB. Pat White was a 2nd round pick as a WR after being a college QB. Armanti Edwards was a 3rd round draft pick as a WR after being a college QB. Those are off the top of my head.
It's moot though because Thomas is going to the Senior Bowl and the combine as a QB.
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I agree with you there. I'm far from a Steelers fan but I think he could really fit in there. Nay-sayers, who did Big Ben play against and beat in college at Miami University? I'm not sure Logan's and Ben's competition in college are comparable.
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Two words. Julius Thomas. Played only one year of collegiate football as a tight end at Portland State. now, (given he is a Peyton Manning target) he is one of the best TE's this year in the NFL.
Bottom line: JT had less football experience than LT, similar athletic ability however.
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After being told by scouts that he was too much of a tweener to make the NBA, Gates (64) arranged a workout in front of NFL scouts. Despite never playing football in college,[7] as many as 19 teams were believed to have contacted Gates about a tryout. Gates chose to work out first for the San Diego Chargers. Recognizing his potential, the Chargers immediately signed him to a contract as an undrafted free agent.
I think someone would be willing to take a mid round pick on him if their intent was to work him out at TE. I just wonder how Logan will approach it. Would he be willing to transition positions? Or would he be more like Tebow with the attitude that it's QB or bust?
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I think Logan will want to be a QB first, but he would be smart enough to recognize if it's not going to happen and swap positions in a year or two. Even if he's undrafted I'm sure he'll work out in camps for a year or so before he seriously considers position changes.
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I was chatting with Dan Kadar, of SBnation's Mocking the Draft, on Twitter about Logan recently. He said (before the bowl game) that I definitely thinks a team will "take a chance on him in the top 100". That was before he got an invite to the Senior Bowl. IF Logan can play in Mobile (a big if, as you can tell) I think he becomes a top 2 round pick. That's the sort of place where a guy like him can shine, EJ Manuel's stock skyrocketed after his performance and workouts there.
Also, I know that the Bears had scouts at at least two games in Lane this year. Obviously they could have been scouting others, but I was convinced that they were looking at Logan. After the Cutler deal, though, he'll be gone before they'd take a QB.
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If Logan gets a chance to play and practice with top notch talent around him, he may really surprise people. Especially if he gets some vertical threats to showcase his arm strength too.
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True.
Imagine top notch WR's and Logan versus Alabama in the first game of this year.
Logan went 5/26 completions/attempts! (McCarron was 10/23)
We could be having an entirely different conversation if the WR's had less drops this year.
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he should come to Denver! He'd be a middle of the pack QB in terms of height (Peyton is 6'5" and Osweiller is 6'7") and would be competing with Osweiller who is very similar to Thomas in terms of skill set and criticisms. And he'd have the ultimate hardworking QB in Peyton teaching him the nuances of the game!
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Does any know how many times the offense was changed around him in his 5 years at tech, it seemed like it changed every year and if so how could anybody master the quarterbacking position if you have so many changes around you.
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That's a great question/point to consider. Thinking about a QB undergoing coaching changes over and over reminds me a lot of Jason Campbell when he was with the Redskins.
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it was only changed twice. So/Jr year then again between Jr/Sr year. Or you could count the way Ocainspring ran the offense and just say just once, when it went from random chaos to his first real offense his senior year
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Green Bay would be a excellent place for him to learn, hell if gets lucky like Ryan mallet from Arkansas he can sit behind a legend for 4 years in Tom brady.
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Logan Thomas will not be a good NFL QB. He has to think too much in the position rather than just feel and react. I believe his first year was actually skewed because he had good receivers. A good QB makes his receivers better, not vice versa. He'll be a backup QB at best. NFL defenses are too good at creating complex cover strategies, he'd be an INT machine.
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When I think INT machine, I think Eli Manning. Eli can make bad decisions from time to time, has his share of bad luck, and has a REALLY solid receiving corps around him (2 out of those 3 could describe LT3 one season or another). Oh and he also has 2 super bowl rings. I don't think we can properly judge LT3 until he isn't required to single-handedly carry the team week in and week out. I'm intrigued to see what he would do at the next level with real play makers at his side.
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A good QB makes his receivers better, not vice versa
Cannot agree more with Mason.
Everyone who has had to dive for an overthrown ball, get crushed jumping for a high pass while crossing the middle, lean over the sideline to keep his feet in bounds, come back on a scramble, or read an open seam in coverage would disagree with this. Good WRs can make average QB's look great. Welcome to Megatron's entire football career.
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I believe the flaw in your reasoning here is that you're assuming Logan will never be able to learn or improve his skills in the NFL. To the contrary, he will be sitting on the bench for the first time in his life, able to develop and learn without the pressure of having to win, and in the NFL he will be learning from the best of the best.
Of course there's always the possibility that he won't be able to learn at the rate he's needed to, but I think it's fair to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Remember, everyone here believes Tyrod should be a starter, and Tyrod never had a QB coach in college that taught him how to read defenses like Loeffler tried to do with Logan.
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I don't believe Tyrod should be a starter either. I think at best he'll be one of those guys like Terrell Pryor who is fighting every week just to play.
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One more time, say it with me: This was his first season with a competent QB coach. We saw a great deal of improvement in his decision making and mechanics from last season, especially later in the year (Lou Holtz may disagree, but he belongs in a home). As has been mentioned numerous times in reply to your comment, there's only so much Logan can do when perfectly-placed balls are bouncing off guys hands AND he's called upon to carry (sometimes literally, it seems) the entire team.
In short, I see your point, but I respectfully disagree.
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Saying great deal is being a bit optimistic. He really didn't change much from previous years. His accuracy was around mediocre his entire career, and although he may have made a few good passes here or there, it doesn't take away from the fact that he made a lot of questionable throws as well. You can't blame the fact that "he had to carry the team" against Duke and Boston College for his INT's. I believe it was 2 of those INT's that could be put on the receivers, but the rest are on Logan, carrying the team or not.
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Lotta stats folks on here. John was 8 of 16 whereas Mary was 10 of 16 therefore Mary can play in the NFL and John cannot. And I know because I saw John throw two errant balls.
NFL folks will know exactly what program he is coming from. He had two guys who are hanging around the NFL, no coaching, decent running game and had a great year. Shoulda come out then. New two who are on the fringes of the NFL, no running game, no coaching, HC sleeping under a tree. And probably received a third round grade. New coaches new system, no running game, enthusiastic WRs who may struggle keeping their spots at VT next year. No idea what his grade is this year, but I'm rooting for him to go in the first three rounds, because I think he deserves that as a minimum. Hope he lights it up in the senior bowl. Senior bowl and combine will have a large impact with this kid IMHO, largely because of the offensive dysfunction that was and is VT football. We'll all be rooting for him. Your welcome to get on the bandwagon.
My guess is noone will ever pay you for your football knowledge. But keep keeping on slamming a kid who busted his arse for VT. Not questioning your motivation, just wonder why you don't have something better to do.
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I do believe he'll get drafted higher than most of his detractors think. His physical talents and work ethic are something coaches can only dream of. He certainly has a lot of the intangibles of a good QB, of course there are some caveats to his decision-making at times, but that's definitely not a deal breaker.
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Accuracy, pocket presence, and being able to make a read. The hardest of the 3 is being able to make a read pre-snap but more importantly during the play. 6th round draft pick tops. 3rd or 4th round if he is being converted to a tight end.
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This makes no sense whatsoever. If he gets drafted in the 3rd or 4th round, it won't be for the purpose of being converted to TE. No one is going to waste a 3rd/4th round pick for the sole purpose of taking a flyer on converting a guy to play TE who's spent the last 7 years playing QB and has never played a down of TE in his life.
If he gets drafted that high (and I think he will), it'll be because someone think's he can be a QB and he's going to get ample opportunity to do so. If he goes in the 7th round or undrafted (and I don't think that's likely), then I could see a GM thinking we might have a QB or we might have something else -- let's find out.
There are dozens upon dozens of guys who people say would be a better fit at "x" in the NFL, but rarely does that work (and I don't mean being moved from T to G or FS to SS). The NFL simply doesn't have the time for a guy to develop an entirely new skill set -- in their 20s -- after spending years refining their motor skills, reflexes, and body toward a different skill set. Just watch Hard Knocks...there's always 1 or 2 guys trying to stick in the NFL by moving from, say, TE or LB to FB -- and they generally struggle.
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I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you...and LT didn't exactly line up as a TE if we're nit picking..but this is damn close enough. I think it's foolish to use such definite statements like
No one is going to waste a 3rd/4th round pick for the sole simply for the sole purpose of taking a flyer on converting a guy to play TE who's spent the last 7 years playing QB and has never played a down of TE in his life.
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well if you actually read my comment you would see that I wasn't pro 'LT for TE'..I was just saying you(figuratively..don't get your knickers in a twist) look foolish when you make definitive statements that people can easily refute. I'm all for LT making it as an NFL QB...if someone wants to convince people in an argument they need to be smarter about what they say.
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I know what you were saying in your post. I was more poking fun at people who use that play as the sole reason why he should be a TE. He's not the first QB to catch a pass, and he won't be the last, but people see that one play and they're like HE HAS TO BE A TE, SEE THAT???
I just find that frustrating, thinking about a guy who has seven years of QB experience and that one play is what everyone points to as to why he's "not a QB"
Not a comment about your post per se, just a general comment.
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after spending years refining their motor skills, reflexes, and body toward a different skill set...
...and still having years of refining to go in order to be a starting/good quarterback. As I said above, I think a team will have to do less work with him to make him a usable TE/H-back than they would to make him a usable/starting QB. The examples of converted NFL position players above, not to mention the rise of former primarily basketball players having success, prove that teams will develop a guy that has a skill set, despite what his background is. Think of it like this: a high school basketball team's tallest player is a 6'4" guy who has great ball handling skills and can shoot and would be a great SG in college, but the high school coach sticks him at Center because he's their best rebounder and only guy that can guard opposing teams big men. His college coach isn't going to work him in at center just because his high school coach only had him practice post moves. They're going to take advantage of his best assets. In other words, just because LT had the best QB skills on our team, doesn't mean he didn't have the best TE skills also, we just had other adequate options at TE and their was too big of a gap between his QB skills and Leal's skills.
If I were a GM/Coach, I wouldn't want to spend that many practice reps and time on a boom or bust QB unless I already had a locked-in starting veteran QB who really has a hold of the offense already. That dwindles down the teams that would draft him, and many of those teams already have a serviceable back-up. More and more teams are only dressing out 2 QBs, and I can't imagine them keeping a roster spot for a guy that they're still working on accuracy, decision making, and working through a progression with. If he can't make strides in those areas during training camp and the pre-season, I could easily see him not making the cut since he doesn't have an amazing college career to prove he can perform when it counts.
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Comments
IMO, Logan's only worry is accuracy. If he can show teams he is an accurate passer in the combine and at his pro day he's golden.
Exactly. I remember Todd McShay saying earlier this season that he thought (like we've been saying the last 2 years) that LT3 has probably the least amount of help around him out of all the legit NFL QBs in the draft. If, like you said, he can show teams that he can put the ball on the money and prove that a lot of those picks/incompletions weren't his fault (let's face it, look at the Bama game. There's only so many times a ball can hit the WR in the face, hands or chest before you stop blaming the QB), I think he could definitely surprise some people with how high he goes.
but accuracy is the thing with logan. it begins and ends right there. sometimes he's deadly accurate making nfl throws all over the field, other times he's boinking balls off a railing in section 9. i'm sure his interviews will go well and he'll crush all the sprints and jumps and lifts. but if he's inaccurate like we know he can be at pro day or the combine and he'll drop like a rock.
i think he's in a great situation. he's not gonna go in the first round but someone will see all that size and strength and work ethic and will fall in love with him. hopefully he goes to a decent franchise and learns behind an established starter for a couple seasons instead of going to a team that will expect him to be the savior right away.
Green Bay Packers. Done. (I'm totally being a homer. This wont happen, but it does fit the mold of what you were saying)
Every single "NFL Caliber" college QB I've seen play this year made the same mistakes and poor throws that LT3 did. Is LT3 the top 5 pick everyone thought he could become? No. Is he a legitimate NFL QB prospect? Yes.
You don't have the physical gifts he have, even with the good to decent career numbers, and not gain interest from NFL teams. He won't be a starter this year, but he's too gifted to be passed up in the draft.
I felt decision making was also an issue. But with proper film evaluation, that could improve.
You aren't the only one wondering about his decision making. There have been too many times he has throw into double and triple coverage for me to not wonder about his decision making.
I think he is a 5+ round selection right now that some team will take for a project. I can see the Saints, Patriots, Packers, or Broncos be willing to go level for a project that might be ready to step in when their QB leaves.
Happily, we saw his decision making get much better later in the year. MUCH fewer head-scratchers and 2x coverage throws. Probably the result of more reps in a more sophisticated passing offense, going through progressions, etc. Real shame he was only coached by Lefty for a year.
Duke and BC were not good games for his decision making.
Broncos already have a tall back up.
That doesn't mean that might not take another one given the right opportunity.
I think Logan is gonna destroy the combine. We all may be surprised at how high he goes.
If he's throwing to Jarrett Boykin and Danny Coale at the combine workouts then he'll go first overall
I wouldn't mind seeing them team up again in GB. I'm sure the Packers can get Danny for a good deal from Dallas if they wanted.
Danny is now with the Colts. Just FYI.
He was unfortunately released by them shortly after and the only articles mentioning him since October have been saying the Cowboys are bad at drafting and citing him as an example. =(
He wasn't playing because for the first time in his career he got hurt, healed then got hurt again.
Logan's biggest flaw is his pocket presence. He has a tendency to keep drifting backwards after getting the snap, rather than stepping into the pocket. This was a cause of a lot of his bad plays, either because he wasn't able to set his feet to make an accurate throw or because he backed right into an outside speed rush.
If teams feel like they can teach Thomas how to maneuver around in the pocket, they will take the risk of drafting him. His ceiling is too damn high to pass up 7 times.
Agree 100%.
Somebody is going to get him, the opportunity is too much to pass up and somebody will pull that trigger.
Agree. I think his ceiling is so high that teams will take him rather high to come in and be a backup for a few years before getting a starting gig somewhere.
Am I the only one that thinks he might be better off getting drafted as a TE? His size and, like mentioned before, work ethic are huge pluses, and I think he's more than capable of learning how to play like an NFL TE. Might not be the fastest guy out there, but he'll get after ya (had to) with his power. I could see him following in the same vein of Antonio Gates, albeit Logan is a tad taller.
I don't know Gates's background but I don't think a team would draft Logan as a TE if he's never ever EVER (just for a clarity) played the position. That just seems far too risky. I could see teams letting him try out as a free agent (if passed up on in the draft) as a TE, but to draft him as anything other than a QB seems too insane for an NFL organization to do.
I also think people misunderstand what his size means to an NFL team. Him being 6'6" and built like a linebacker doesn't mean a team will look at him and think TE. They'll look at him and say, that's a huge QB, we want him!
Plenty of NFL owners would dream of having a 6'6" kid playing QB, not TE.
Yeah that was my thought as well, but you never know how things will pan out. Someone in an above comment mentioned him being at a team like the Saints behind Brees. I immediately had the image of a SI cover with tiny Drew Brees sitting on massive Logan Thomas's shoulders.
That would make them Master Blaster...
which makes Sean Payton Aunty Entity? I don't know if he can pull this look off...
But if he could, it would be Fabulous!
I heard yall like Paint.
Fantastic! Almost like I pictured it in my head. A turkey leg for you, good sir! :D
I was just about to make a "am i the only one" post saying the same thing.
I think the Sun Bowl did wonders for his stock as a TE. He had a few good run plays where he showed a burst and the ability to make quick cuts. The Myles Jack truck run showed how hard it is to bring him down (translating to YAC) when he's a ball carrier. After he left the field with that defenseless knockout hit, he appeared to have shaken it off pretty quick whenever they showed him on the sideline.
I think teams will ask him to workout at TE for the combine/pro day just to get a look at him. I think if he can show decent footwork in blocking drills and shows decent hands, I could see him being a 2nd or 3rd round TE.
No NFL GM in their right mind would ever use a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick in order to get a player that they want to play a position THEY HAVE NEVER PLAYED BEFORE.
If he plays TE, it's because no one drafted him as a QB. And I highly, highly doubt that will ever happen.
100% agree with you there.
Down-voted for expressing my opinion by agreeing with another poster's opinion.... umm confused?
No it doesn't make sense, but it's an imaginary turkey leg...
IF it were REAL turkey legs we're dealing with here... that would be entirely different
No team is gonna draft a player at tight end when they can throw the ball half a mile flat footed either. People aren't gonna give up on the tight end thing are they?
Ehh I agree but be careful not to get too mesmerized by the big arm thing. IIRC JaMarcus Russell could throw 60 yards from his knees but that didn't help him in the pros.
I think Logan has his head on straight...at least more so than JaMarcus Russell did coming out of college.
Dear God, I sure would hope so. I wonder if Manziel will be the same book, different chapter.
I think manziel will have a rude awakening if he's not drafted by the lions, since he won't have a ridiculous wide receiver that can just out jump everyone on defense to make catches in triple coverage.
That and not many teams prefer your best throw to be a Jump Pass
Yeah and I really doubt (and hope he doesn't) he goes to the Lions... which would be entertaining IMO. Imagine the fun-to-watch chases of him running for his life with Suh and Fairley hot on his tail. I think that would be a really quick reality check.
I have amended an old phrase - "Close enough is only good enough in horseshoes, hand grenades, and Johnny Manziel's throwing arm when Mike Evans is on the field." The kid's a hell of an athlete, but his receiving crew, especially Evans, made him look a hell of a lot better.
"Johnny, completions are much more exciting when you throw into triple coverage!"- Brett Favre
"Brett Favre!!" - John Madden
Manziel fan here; After setting QB records in the SEC for the last two years, I think he'll do just fine in the NFL.
Didn't any of you see the 52 pts he put up on Duke? Logan and VT had 10. Winston and FSU had 45 against the Duke D, but had a much more balanced team than TAM.
Manziel might be a bit immature and small, but he can throw with accuracy, scramble and improvise. Reminds me of MV7 with a better accuracy.
I saw the 45 he put up before his defense came in to save the day with 2 picks.
That's a little bit much, I think. Manziel was great against Duke, but lets keep in mind the relative scores of the Duke games when comparing FSU and T A&M - FSU did not HAVE to score 52 points to win, otherwise, I think they could have. That game was just over by halftime.
As for the Vick comparison... pump the brakes. Manziel is exciting and dynamic, but he's not really anything like Vick. His arm isn't as strong, and he's not nearly as much of a home-run threat. They're totally different players. A better comparison might be Archie Manning at Ole Miss.
It wouldn't shock if Manziel succeeds in the NFL, but it wouldn't shock me if he didn't either. I imagine we'll see what the NFL decision makers think of him in a few months, I guess, but I'd be surprised if he was in the upper half of the first round.
Comparing someone to JaMarcus Russell is pretty much equivalent to comparing someone to David Wilson. Except instead of unfairly assuming someone will be ridiculously athletic, you're assuming they'll be ridiculously lazy, show up to camp at 265+ and do absolutely NOTHING to improve himself once he gets to the league.
I'd say Logan is a hard enough worker and intelligent enough to be a successful NFL QB.
I completely agree. My intended point of emphasis was on "be careful not to get too mesmerized by the big arm thing". I wasn't intending to make any remote form of character relation to LT. I should have bolded that the first time to avoid confusion.
I think Russell actually ballooned up to 300 lbs.
6'6" TE's are a dime a dozen....6'6" QB's with his arm, athleticism, leadership, and toughness are not.
It only takes 1 GM to fall in love with him and say "I can turn him into a special QB."
And that is Joe Banner and Jimmy Haslem, lol would be funny if Cleveland takes him at 4.
I will never give up on this lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKjJA8ubz0o
I feel like LT is a boom or bust NFL QB. I see him as having more/larger hurdles (accuracy & decision making) to being a good NFL QB than he does to be a good NFL TE/H-back. Personally, I'd rather see him represent the Hokies in the NFL for 10 years as a contributor to an offense, than to be on somebody's bench or a 3 year dud (a la Tebow).
You aren't the only one who'll never give up on that...
Sometimes I worry that we'll have this discussion on this site until the day Logan retires from football.
then we'll just talk about him unretiring to play TE. or coming to vt to be the TE coach.
I don't know about all that. Can he recruit?
Yeah, on 2nd thought, a 2nd or 3rd may be a little high, but GMs have done it in the past, so I don't think it's as ridiculous as you make it out to be. I was going to detail some QBs who were drafted for different positions myself, but this site has already done it for me: http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/college_qbs_position_switch/
Matt Jones, who broke some school passing records at Arkansas, and Michael Robinson (who did play some RB his fresh and soph years) from Penn St, were 1st and 4th rd picks respectively, with their teams intending them to play positions other than QB. Jones worked as a WR at the senior bowl, while Robinson worked at QB.
Very good point. There are always exceptions. Robinson actually went to my rival high school and is currently an NFL FB with the Seahawks (like you said), but he never had that FB build back in the day. I think he was definitely a late bloomer into that position.
Yeah, he lived in my neighborhood and my big brother played with him in rec league and high school. He definitely had/has more of a RB build than a FB, but his toughness, strength, and football IQ made him serviceable lead blocker, and his ball carrying ability and hands make him a offensive weapon.
That's pretty awesome. Does that mean you're an East End Henrico/Varina Hokie then?
East end until the teen years, and then The Herm for high school.
Oh word, I went to Highland Springs. Were those the JuJu Clayton days?
It's happened before. Antwaan Randle El was a 2nd round draft pick as a WR after being a college QB. Pat White was a 2nd round pick as a WR after being a college QB. Armanti Edwards was a 3rd round draft pick as a WR after being a college QB. Those are off the top of my head.
It's moot though because Thomas is going to the Senior Bowl and the combine as a QB.
Julian Edelman as well
None of those guys were built like Logan. When a team sees him they're going to see the next Big Ben.
Not when they look at the stats and the performance of both players in college. Roethlisberger went 11th overall. There's no way Thomas goes there.
I meant just in physical traits. And Logan also never crashed a motorcycle without wearing a helmet. Bonus points.
I agree with you there. I'm far from a Steelers fan but I think he could really fit in there. Nay-sayers, who did Big Ben play against and beat in college at Miami University? I'm not sure Logan's and Ben's competition in college are comparable.
Pat White was drafted as a QB for the Dolphins wildcat offense. He never played WR.
Two words. Julius Thomas. Played only one year of collegiate football as a tight end at Portland State. now, (given he is a Peyton Manning target) he is one of the best TE's this year in the NFL.
Bottom line: JT had less football experience than LT, similar athletic ability however.
So what you are saying is Snyder will draft him as a TE on the 2nd? SWEET!
I dunno about this. I don't put anything past NFL teams these days. From Antonio Gates's Wikipedia page:
I think someone would be willing to take a mid round pick on him if their intent was to work him out at TE. I just wonder how Logan will approach it. Would he be willing to transition positions? Or would he be more like Tebow with the attitude that it's QB or bust?
I think Logan will want to be a QB first, but he would be smart enough to recognize if it's not going to happen and swap positions in a year or two. Even if he's undrafted I'm sure he'll work out in camps for a year or so before he seriously considers position changes.
I was chatting with Dan Kadar, of SBnation's Mocking the Draft, on Twitter about Logan recently. He said (before the bowl game) that I definitely thinks a team will "take a chance on him in the top 100". That was before he got an invite to the Senior Bowl. IF Logan can play in Mobile (a big if, as you can tell) I think he becomes a top 2 round pick. That's the sort of place where a guy like him can shine, EJ Manuel's stock skyrocketed after his performance and workouts there.
Also, I know that the Bears had scouts at at least two games in Lane this year. Obviously they could have been scouting others, but I was convinced that they were looking at Logan. After the Cutler deal, though, he'll be gone before they'd take a QB.
Very good point.
If Logan gets a chance to play and practice with top notch talent around him, he may really surprise people. Especially if he gets some vertical threats to showcase his arm strength too.
True.
Imagine top notch WR's and Logan versus Alabama in the first game of this year.
Logan went 5/26 completions/attempts! (McCarron was 10/23)
We could be having an entirely different conversation if the WR's had less drops this year.
//homer post inbound
he should come to Denver! He'd be a middle of the pack QB in terms of height (Peyton is 6'5" and Osweiller is 6'7") and would be competing with Osweiller who is very similar to Thomas in terms of skill set and criticisms. And he'd have the ultimate hardworking QB in Peyton teaching him the nuances of the game!
Does any know how many times the offense was changed around him in his 5 years at tech, it seemed like it changed every year and if so how could anybody master the quarterbacking position if you have so many changes around you.
That's a great question/point to consider. Thinking about a QB undergoing coaching changes over and over reminds me a lot of Jason Campbell when he was with the Redskins.
it was only changed twice. So/Jr year then again between Jr/Sr year. Or you could count the way Ocainspring ran the offense and just say just once, when it went from random chaos to his first real offense his senior year
Green Bay would be a excellent place for him to learn, hell if gets lucky like Ryan mallet from Arkansas he can sit behind a legend for 4 years in Tom brady.
Oh god, if he goes to the patriots we will never, ever, hear the end of the "should Logan play TE" discussions
Logan Thomas will not be a good NFL QB. He has to think too much in the position rather than just feel and react. I believe his first year was actually skewed because he had good receivers. A good QB makes his receivers better, not vice versa. He'll be a backup QB at best. NFL defenses are too good at creating complex cover strategies, he'd be an INT machine.
Training and repetition.
That's all that is.
When I think INT machine, I think Eli Manning. Eli can make bad decisions from time to time, has his share of bad luck, and has a REALLY solid receiving corps around him (2 out of those 3 could describe LT3 one season or another). Oh and he also has 2 super bowl rings. I don't think we can properly judge LT3 until he isn't required to single-handedly carry the team week in and week out. I'm intrigued to see what he would do at the next level with real play makers at his side.
In general, QB's get too much credit and WR's not enough... IMO.
Cannot agree more with Mason.
Everyone who has had to dive for an overthrown ball, get crushed jumping for a high pass while crossing the middle, lean over the sideline to keep his feet in bounds, come back on a scramble, or read an open seam in coverage would disagree with this. Good WRs can make average QB's look great. Welcome to Megatron's entire football career.
yeah. I feel like the only q making receivers look better is Peyton Manning, and even then he needs receivers who can catch.
I believe the flaw in your reasoning here is that you're assuming Logan will never be able to learn or improve his skills in the NFL. To the contrary, he will be sitting on the bench for the first time in his life, able to develop and learn without the pressure of having to win, and in the NFL he will be learning from the best of the best.
Of course there's always the possibility that he won't be able to learn at the rate he's needed to, but I think it's fair to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Remember, everyone here believes Tyrod should be a starter, and Tyrod never had a QB coach in college that taught him how to read defenses like Loeffler tried to do with Logan.
I don't believe Tyrod should be a starter either. I think at best he'll be one of those guys like Terrell Pryor who is fighting every week just to play.
Ask Donovan McNabb and Terrell Owens if that's the way that works. Or Calvin Johnson.
One more time, say it with me: This was his first season with a competent QB coach. We saw a great deal of improvement in his decision making and mechanics from last season, especially later in the year (Lou Holtz may disagree, but he belongs in a home). As has been mentioned numerous times in reply to your comment, there's only so much Logan can do when perfectly-placed balls are bouncing off guys hands AND he's called upon to carry (sometimes literally, it seems) the entire team.
In short, I see your point, but I respectfully disagree.
In many cases he was called upon to carry LB's too. well, except for Miles Jack who was kind enough to rebound off of Logan as far as possible.
Saying great deal is being a bit optimistic. He really didn't change much from previous years. His accuracy was around mediocre his entire career, and although he may have made a few good passes here or there, it doesn't take away from the fact that he made a lot of questionable throws as well. You can't blame the fact that "he had to carry the team" against Duke and Boston College for his INT's. I believe it was 2 of those INT's that could be put on the receivers, but the rest are on Logan, carrying the team or not.
Lotta stats folks on here. John was 8 of 16 whereas Mary was 10 of 16 therefore Mary can play in the NFL and John cannot. And I know because I saw John throw two errant balls.
NFL folks will know exactly what program he is coming from. He had two guys who are hanging around the NFL, no coaching, decent running game and had a great year. Shoulda come out then. New two who are on the fringes of the NFL, no running game, no coaching, HC sleeping under a tree. And probably received a third round grade. New coaches new system, no running game, enthusiastic WRs who may struggle keeping their spots at VT next year. No idea what his grade is this year, but I'm rooting for him to go in the first three rounds, because I think he deserves that as a minimum. Hope he lights it up in the senior bowl. Senior bowl and combine will have a large impact with this kid IMHO, largely because of the offensive dysfunction that was and is VT football. We'll all be rooting for him. Your welcome to get on the bandwagon.
My guess is noone will ever pay you for your football knowledge. But keep keeping on slamming a kid who busted his arse for VT. Not questioning your motivation, just wonder why you don't have something better to do.
I thought it was okay to post opposing thoughts on a discussion board? Or am I only allowed to post what everyone else believes?
hey at least he didn't downvote you...he just disagrees with you..strongly..he's entitled to his opinion just as much as you are
Haha yeah, it's a start. Just didn't feel it was necessary to call someone out. Disagree with me all you want, just don't be an ass
I do believe he'll get drafted higher than most of his detractors think. His physical talents and work ethic are something coaches can only dream of. He certainly has a lot of the intangibles of a good QB, of course there are some caveats to his decision-making at times, but that's definitely not a deal breaker.
Accuracy, pocket presence, and being able to make a read. The hardest of the 3 is being able to make a read pre-snap but more importantly during the play. 6th round draft pick tops. 3rd or 4th round if he is being converted to a tight end.
This makes no sense whatsoever. If he gets drafted in the 3rd or 4th round, it won't be for the purpose of being converted to TE. No one is going to waste a 3rd/4th round pick for the sole purpose of taking a flyer on converting a guy to play TE who's spent the last 7 years playing QB and has never played a down of TE in his life.
If he gets drafted that high (and I think he will), it'll be because someone think's he can be a QB and he's going to get ample opportunity to do so. If he goes in the 7th round or undrafted (and I don't think that's likely), then I could see a GM thinking we might have a QB or we might have something else -- let's find out.
There are dozens upon dozens of guys who people say would be a better fit at "x" in the NFL, but rarely does that work (and I don't mean being moved from T to G or FS to SS). The NFL simply doesn't have the time for a guy to develop an entirely new skill set -- in their 20s -- after spending years refining their motor skills, reflexes, and body toward a different skill set. Just watch Hard Knocks...there's always 1 or 2 guys trying to stick in the NFL by moving from, say, TE or LB to FB -- and they generally struggle.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you...and LT didn't exactly line up as a TE if we're nit picking..but this is damn close enough. I think it's foolish to use such definite statements like
also, I apologize for bad quality video..this was the only one I could find in a pinch..
We could put together a much longer video of really great plays Logan made playing QB. What's your point?
I'm sorry, I'm just so tired of every Logan is a TE or should be a TE discussion just pulling up this video and being like, look, he's a TE!!!!!!
well if you actually read my comment you would see that I wasn't pro 'LT for TE'..I was just saying you(figuratively..don't get your knickers in a twist) look foolish when you make definitive statements that people can easily refute. I'm all for LT making it as an NFL QB...if someone wants to convince people in an argument they need to be smarter about what they say.
I know what you were saying in your post. I was more poking fun at people who use that play as the sole reason why he should be a TE. He's not the first QB to catch a pass, and he won't be the last, but people see that one play and they're like HE HAS TO BE A TE, SEE THAT???
I just find that frustrating, thinking about a guy who has seven years of QB experience and that one play is what everyone points to as to why he's "not a QB"
Not a comment about your post per se, just a general comment.
...and still having years of refining to go in order to be a starting/good quarterback. As I said above, I think a team will have to do less work with him to make him a usable TE/H-back than they would to make him a usable/starting QB. The examples of converted NFL position players above, not to mention the rise of former primarily basketball players having success, prove that teams will develop a guy that has a skill set, despite what his background is. Think of it like this: a high school basketball team's tallest player is a 6'4" guy who has great ball handling skills and can shoot and would be a great SG in college, but the high school coach sticks him at Center because he's their best rebounder and only guy that can guard opposing teams big men. His college coach isn't going to work him in at center just because his high school coach only had him practice post moves. They're going to take advantage of his best assets. In other words, just because LT had the best QB skills on our team, doesn't mean he didn't have the best TE skills also, we just had other adequate options at TE and their was too big of a gap between his QB skills and Leal's skills.
If I were a GM/Coach, I wouldn't want to spend that many practice reps and time on a boom or bust QB unless I already had a locked-in starting veteran QB who really has a hold of the offense already. That dwindles down the teams that would draft him, and many of those teams already have a serviceable back-up. More and more teams are only dressing out 2 QBs, and I can't imagine them keeping a roster spot for a guy that they're still working on accuracy, decision making, and working through a progression with. If he can't make strides in those areas during training camp and the pre-season, I could easily see him not making the cut since he doesn't have an amazing college career to prove he can perform when it counts.