Andy put together a well-researched article on the Athletic that anonymously interviewed seven different high school coaches in Virginia and asked for their views on VT, UVA and other in-state schools on their recruiting effort.
As you can imagine, it's a bit of a mixed bag - Some coaches lamented the release of Zohn, some talk about the lack of contact with the coaching staff, some don't like the #TX2VT movement, some think they've done a good job.
It's a good read, I would recommend going through if you have an athletic account.
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I read this. I came away pretty disappointed in the effort it 'appears' our coaching staff has made. I realize that high school coaches are biased towards their players, and I realize they only interview 7 anonymous coaches, but I didn't finish the article feeling like we are killing in in the state, at least from a perception standpoint. I also have no idea how many schools are in VA, and how often a coach could really visit each school, but I imagine not often. The Texas push seems to rub everyone the wrong way.....and probably will continue....you know, until Alex Orji starts killing it. That's the thing with perception, it just seems.....the way it seems, until it changes. Its really hard to know for sure how they are doing. You hear they are woefully understaffed, and one guy had the whole recruiting platform in his head, then he left, that Fuente isn't great with people, but the players seem to love him....except for all the transfers. Its confusing. I guess W-L will determine the end game. I really want us to win 9-10 games this year, and I ALSO really want us to clean house on the offensive side. I love J-ham, and Ryan, and Jack. It seems as though we are up and coming over there on defense. That offense though........
I think the HS coaches actually brought up good points about the Texas stuff. It hasn't paid off yet with a single recruit - all the effort we've put into Texas has resulted in all those recruits either decommitting before they got here or transferring out as soon as they didn't make an impact in Year 1. And Orji seems promising but given our track record out that way that just feels like a ticking time bomb before he winds up somewhere else too. Probably doesn't happen, at least to that extent, with the same types of players from VA.
The other thing that several brought up was that "why does VT need to go to Texas for a 3 star?"
I think people understand it's a national game now and you have to get talent where you can, so by all means go after studs wherever they are (all the better if you have connections). But when you're doing that for essentially the same talent you can get from your own backyard, it's off-putting.
3 stars are not created equal regardless of rankings. Some coaches prefer players from Texas because the competition they play against in high school is well above Virginia
One reason ilto go to Texas us exactly what VA coaches are complaining about, they all want VT to look at their 3*s or lower and if we do those players right then they will speak highly of VT when they have a 4 or 5*. So you have to take some 3*s to build that pipeline.
Man so the staff that struggles to recruit should offer kids that no other P5 offers just to stay on the good side of high schools coaches?
They aren't the same though. The 46th ranked Recruit in Texas would have been a top 10 recruit in VA in 2019 (last year I looked at). VA depth has been awful the last 5-7 years the 757 especially. There is still top end talent which has always been even during the Beamer years sought after by everyone (list of players leaving for UNC, UF, ND, Clemson, OSU is long for decades), but there isn't the depth as in years past, not as many low end 4 stars or high end 3 stars. You can't build a team on VA talent these days.
Now relationships which is what the staff can build on haven't been great but are not nearly as bad as some make them out to be. The staff has held high school coaching events and clinics every year. Virginia High School coaches have free tickets to Lane most games. The staff has multiple former Tech players on it along with players from the state. So while it could be much better it's not being ignored either.
We didn't get the 46th player in Texas though. We got the 129th rated player in Texas last year. I think Lofton is a stud, but it's not like we're getting a lot of 4 stars from Texas. No one complained when DD committed because he was an elite prospect. I think the problem people have is taking low ranked Texas recruits over similarly ranked Virginia recruits.
The biggest point is the ranking system is a bit flawed. Lofton has played earlier than "higher rated" players from VA. The facts are playing in Texas high school football prepares players at a whole different level than VA high school football. That's why coaches choose to go the Texas route, they want players that can step in sooner and have more upside. I don't think we should worry too much about Texas though a lot of that has simmered down since Beau left town.
The two DL's from the 2019 (?) class where outside the top 25 players from Texas both would have been top 10-15 in VA easily. Again VA has a few elite studs each year but depth after them has gotten much worse.
Maybe I'm off on this, but I have had the perception for 10+ years that VA players dont actually want to come to VT anymore (see any of the 9000000x comments on here belaboring this point). With that in mind it doesnt seem crazy to me to look elsewhere for talent when we havent been getting VA players anyway.
Also - I think it's been like half a decade since a 757 team has won a state title? Don't quote me on that. The Virginia talent definitely has not been as consistent deep the past few years
Doing a quick scan of this list (which only goes through 2018), it looks like the last 757 schools to win a championship were Ocean Lakes (VB) and Lake Taylor (Norfolk) in 2014.
Oscar Smith won during the 2020 Covid season.
This. It seems like a lot of the 4-5 star guys that Tech missed on in the last 7-10 years, never amounted to much or were never heard from again. Probably 4 were running backs. I can't think of many of the names off the top of my head and I'm sure someone could do a deep dive on Top 20 high school players in VA and their college/pro careers afterward. I feel like Tech has produced more than their fair share of NFL talent compared to ranking with Wyatt Teller, Logan Thomas, the Fullers, the Edmunds, Farley, etc.
We just got Ramon and Gunner. There are rumblings Gunner didn't get exactly the offer he wanted, but he still could have gone elsewhere and I truly believe Ramon wants to be a Hokie
i had been patiently waiting for this article. other states were really interesting to read about.
it was a mixed bag. i think there were some good comments about J-Ham, Smith, and Tyler, which is encouraging. they also liked Zohn, but wasn't he missing out on just about everyone he recruited anyways?
i also got the impression those coaches want their kids staying in-state, but were a little frustrated overall that Fuente is not more involved. seems like they definitely want him on the phone more, and also on the phone more with top recruits. i really did get the impression that those high school coaches want VT and UVA to do well.
i was little surprised how a couple of them were really upset about us recruiting TX kids. i assume they are upset because they think offers in TX might mean their kids aren't getting offers? i doubt recruiting TX takes time away from us visiting high schools in VA...recruiting TX is basically done over the phone and skype i would think.
just a theory, but i have always gotten the impression that Fuente thought very highly about VT when he took the job, and thought recruiting would be easier than it turned out being, and that he could even recruit nationally, and he was wrong about that, and it took a while to adjust to that realization. just a feeling i've had.
last thought about the article...like i said, i got the impression those coaches want their kids staying in-state, but i have also gotten the impression, like someone said above, that the top recruits are determined to go out-of-state, and don't even consider us...like recently sherrod covil and tristan leigh, or a number of penn st running backs.
In my mind, this is the big unforced error that Fuente made.
Google says there's 280 high school football programs in VA. Let's say that between VA, MD and NC, there's 350 head coaches that you need to connect with.
This isn't some innovative process. Sales orgs all around the world do this. People think that good sales people are all dynamic charismatic people. Some are, but most are good because they do their homework and are prepared. I'm led to believe that Fuente's staff - more often that not - hasn't done this.
But even sales organizations aren't going to talk to every coach. There was one coach a year or two ago that complained VT has never talked to him at all, but that year was the first time in more than a decade that they had some one that was good enough for D1. And the player wasn't 4* or higher, he was maybe goto JMU and be a star or try FBS and maybe develop.
You want to prioritize the pipeline schools, and talk to them a lot more. You want to invite them for camps and keep them somewhat happy. But any good sales organization does know how to be data driven and make the most use of their money/time.
Though as someone else mentioned, high school coaches are not as important as they once were.
You can give every coach 15 min a year. You never know when (a) they'll have a prospect, or (b) they'll switch jobs.
Regardless - you can change the numbers however you want, add/remove schools, but the general idea remains the same - Create a schedule to reach out to the coaches who you want to build relationships with.
It's all about sales. It takes an average of 5 "touches" to make a sale. They have to keep after the coaches.
this never makes sense to me. Coaches aren't recruiting in a vacuum, and if they are then that clearly would be a huge issue why recruits never materialized. I have never read legit proof that Zohn was "missing out". From everything I remember he was bringing recruits in, they just choose elsewhere. Is that Zohn's fault or is that the program's? At some point all recruiting wins live or die by the big whistle selling the program.
Here's what I believe empirically:
There is a trend in these observations.
exactly and Fuente is the closer
IIRC, Zohn got fired for offering VT kids who the staff/position coaches hadn't scouted or didn't plan on offering.
I remember reading this here on TKP boards. was this confirmed?
I think it was something BAG said on here.
yeah, well... I can see this just as easily being something where Zohn was recruiting kids and then Fuente pulled something that potentially would burn bridges, and instead Zohn kept those bridges up.
In this day and age, had Zohn been offering kids like this then at least a few kids would find their offer wasn't real because of a rogue coach. And that would have been all over the twitterverse. None of which happened.
Additionally, had Zohn been acting that way I seriously doubt he would be so well liked by HS coaches/players now.
So I'm calling BS on those sauces until proven otherwise. thanks for clarification though.
Can't disagree with your stance, but
It's pretty common for schools to offer a ton of kids and then rescind offers when they get someone they want. VT could've just pulled the offer; it's not an unusual thing in recruiting.
Agree. Definitely not an uncommon thing, which makes it more suspicious that this was the actual reason he was let go.
Would rather make up a theory than believe the actual reason he didn't get retained. That's goofy.
I'll believe it. Show me the confirmation. Otherwise the reason given is also just a theory.
I'm sure it'll one day get out, but I like that Lechtenberg has been a breathe of fresh air. RBs are playing a lot better, between Herbert last year and the Holston/Blackshear duo. He's recruiting well so far. Getting a kid in SEC's backyard, that was heavily recruited, along with Razor Ramon (waiting til signing day).
Agreed. RBs have been up no doubt.
This I doubt though, unless someone else in the room besides Fuente and Burden speaks up. Otherwise I don't see how it's in the best interest of either coach. I am, as noted, very dubious of the "reason" provided and believe clearly that Fuente bungled the whole thing.
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The breadth and depth of talent in Virginia relative to other top states has declined precipitously in the last 10 or so years. Particularly at OL and QB it seems.
I know the peanut gallery may disagree, but most coaches are mostly rational. They have no desire to make things harder on themselves than they have to. Maybe if Virginia HS coaches looked in the mirror and did a better job of developing players/talent, the top Virginia college programs might put more energy into recruiting the state of Virginia and less focus on places where the recruiting cost and uncertainty is much higher.
Two big takeaways from this article:
Feels to me like VT Coaches and High School Coaches need couples counseling, and each needs to say sorry to the other.
Other interesting tidbits:
^^This^^
In state kids take priority. JHam said so on Twitter last year. Twice. How these HS coaches see priority might be different. We've gotten some ballers in this class from VA.
College coaches can reach players direct, HUDL, scout, camps, Twitter, etc, They don't need to talk to their head coach as much as in the past.
Interesting point, we have a Tx commit who grew up in VA. If Hutson commits, we will have an IMG commit, who is from Norfolk.
Interesting. Didn't know that those guys had Virginia roots. I think the staff in it's current form has done a much better job recruiting in state (Coach Smith has been a difference maker).
It's great to see JHam have this mindset. He lived it coming out of a small Single-A Virginia HS (Clintwood) and wasn't higher than a 3*, if that, himself. JHam lives and breaths VT and always will. That's the type of guys we need in here.
I've given my thoughts on the Texas focus/in-state recruiting with this staff, but depending on whether we retain all these guys, the state of Texas could feature heavily on our offense in the coming years.
If everyone sticks, we could have an offense with four starters from Texas on the field at the same time between Orji, Dickson, LaHue, and Lofton. That would have to be a first for VT, I'd imagine.
For a few years we struggled so badly we needed to go out of state just for warm bodies. The high school coaches say we need to keep focus in state - if we were signing 12 of the top 20 I'm sure we would. If the HS coach is disappointed with the amount of time VT coaches are spending at their school, maybe they should start funneling top talent to B-burg. It is a two way street - if the HS coach/ player don't show any interest it might not be a valuable use of our staff's time.
If you haven't read the article, it's a good read. But depressing. One the coaches actually quoted as saying he has never spoken to Fuente. That's a bad look. No way he would funnel a player to a school where the HC has never bothered to speak with him.
Accompanying the article should be how many 3/4 star players he's developed, and where he sent them.
How often do coaches from other schools come a-calling? When there's a player there they're interested in.
This is a valid point. We don't really have enough context to really form any reasonable opinions about VT's recruiting efforts in VA.
Well I think we get that.
What we don't know is whether that coach has a reason to be miffed. I'm guessing not.
I get what you're saying, but recruiting has to be about being proactive and not reactive. You need to have the relationships already established so that when a high school has a great player that comes along, you already have the relationship there to help bring him in. If you're trying to establish that relationship because they have a player you want, you've likely already missed out on the kid.
I couldn't agree more. Establishing a relationship is important to establish trust. It realize the below example is different because it is from women's soccer, but I think the same principals apply.
Years ago I coached women's high school soccer. I had a player who was really good, but sadly got caught up in a dumb legal situation when she was a freshman. Several college coaches called me to find out more information before offering a scholarship. Out of the 7-10 coaches that called me to inquire, I had only previously heard from 2 or 3 of them. The ones that had a relationship and trusted me, knew my advice was valid and ended up offering the scholarship. The coaches who did not have a previous relationship with me didn't know if I was just "selling" them on my player or if they could really trust my advice. Fast forward a few years later, the player had an outstanding college career and was a 3 year starter with no off the field issues. Obviously not every player who has some "concerns" will work out, but I have to think the trust that was developed between me and the college coaches went a long way to them taking a chance on my player. Building relationships and trust is never a bad thing.
I agree somewhat, particularly with strong programs.
I'm assuming they do that, but I really have no idea what they do in that regard.
That says much, much more about the HS coach than Fuente. His job is to get opportunities for his players. Pick up the damn phone.
Some thoughts
1) Anonymous criticisms aren't worth the electrons it takes to put them on line (mine included). If you want to someone to take your thoughts seriously, put your name on it.
2) the only way Virginia produces enough talent to stock two top 25 football teams is if ALL of the top players stay in state. They don't. They never have. They likely never will. Heck, half of the residents of Virginia aren't native
Virginians. So, VT and UVA necessarily have to do significant recruiting out of state.
3) HS football coaches are equally, if not much more obligated to get their players in front of the coaches they want to recruit/sign them.
In these coaches' defense, they're not bitching on a message board; they were seeked out and asked to be interviewed by a journalist.
They can always decline.
I've been interviewed hundreds of times from most major national news organizations to the local neighborhood rag; you own what you say.
Journalism does not exist without anonymous sources, this is an invalid criticism.
I log on once or twice a year to post this, but the loss of population in 757 and increase of (non Virginian, single) population in Northern VA was the hidden killer for VT recruiting. Overall VA population hasn't dropped, but single workers in their 20s working for Amazon don't have kids that play football. And if for some reason they do, moving to northern Virginia definitely doesn't funnel you into VT fandom the way moving to Ohio or Alabama does
Seemed pretty damning to me. Not that that was the intent, but over and over i heard about how we aren't recruiting in state line we used to. ODU is going to win Virginia, which... wow.
The kids that aren't going to VT aren't going to ODU either. Maybe one or two who wanted to stay close to home, but if they were being targeted by VT/UVA, they are most likely being targeted by out of state schools as well.
We aren't losing recruits to ODU. Maybe that will change in the future if Rahne can turn the program around, but that isn't the case today.
The only real concern I took from that article was how well the unc staff seemed to develop relationships (or are perceived to be investing in these coaches). Quickly it seems that staff has developed a good reputation. National programs (Clemson, penn state, Ohio state, etc.) I get but we need to defend against unc and maryland.
Jack in the Box was in Louisiana scouting this past weekend. If we're pushing the envelope for SEC talent, I'm all for it.
FWIW, there are as many players on the current roster from Europe as from Texas...
And one of the Texas players was a portal transfer.
Is your angle here:
1) This is much ado about nothing because we aren't actually recruiting Texas that hard
2) This is an example of how ineffective our TX focus has been that we have as many European players as players from TX on the roster
3) other
If 3), I'd love to hear what is.
If it's 1) then I would disagree because as someone posted recently, our offers and focus in TX skyrocketed the last couple cycles, so it's clear that significant resources (time + money) are being spent on TX in recent cycles.
edit: Found some numbers on this. Excerpt from a free 247 article in April 2020.
Keep in mind, that 46 offer number for the 2021 class was from 2 months after the 2020 class signing day, so the 2021 offer number probably grew considering there were 10 months until NSD, and bout 8 months until ESD.
Well, and since TX and FL tend to have more 4 and 5 ⭐ players than VA, the average recruit rank for those offers was probably higher as well.