I think he could've been considered one of the greats if the injury bug didn't bite him so hard. I'll always remember him for that pick-6 against ND to take the lead. Thank you for everything and go get paid!
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Fuck
I guess we get to see what we have in the bag that can step up during the bowl.
Edit: wrong reply
I really don't think any of these dudes "leaving early for the draft" are gonna get drafted except maybe Mitchell and now Waller really late. It stinks to lose them, but the real question is who are in these kids corners telling them they should go pro when they will never see a scout team. Such bad advice. Idc if you transfer somewhere else that's better for their career then going pro. But some will have to live and learn the hard way. Good luck to them, but I'm rooting for the REAL Hokies, the ones that stuck around to play the bowl game with their brothers.
They're Real Hokies even if they declare. More a reflection on the bowl system. More a reflection on how their football career ends in a state of flux organizationally speaking.
Was with you up until the real Hokies comment. No disrespect to these guys, but they just don't have the talent of prior players we put in the league in years past. I hope I'm wrong, but to quote the NCAA, I think most of them will need to be ready to go pro in something other than sports. I would add Lecitus Smith as someone with a chance to be drafted
I know you're really close to the team, but these are individual decisions that are best left to the individual. Just like we can't make up the minds of 17 yr old recruits, we can't make up the minds of 21-23 yr olds looking to make a bag.
I'll add, based on the way some of these read, these decisions were made before the season.
Some of these guys have been in college for 4-6 years now with RS and COVID year. They know they have what they have and a new system is coming which means they may not perform as well for their 1 last year. I am sure some are just ready to move on with their life even if they have a year of eligibility left. Football is a grind for 12 months and I don't blame them for saying they have had enough.
Skipping the bowl game for these guys I don't like unless they have been dealing with injuries and they will take that time to get healthy.
You're right on the talent component, but this is a weird year since a lot of the guys declaring have already graduated, some have even already been in college 5 years even if they still have a year of eligibility left.
The "real Hokies" quote always cracks me up whenever somebody says that. Total bullshit.
I'm pretty sure everyone drafted gets a nice chunk of cash even if they don't end up getting signed. Not necessarily life-changing money, but especially for those who have their degrees, starting OUt their careers on a few hundred thousand dollar cushion is a no brainer.
Yeah I thought if you made the practice squad you still had like a 300k salary. I would have loved to make 300k a year right out of college.
From Google:
I think UDFA players also earn weekly pay for training camp and other OTAs, too.
not quite -- drafted guys need to sign to make money, and for guys later on down in the draft typically the only guaranteed money is the signing bonus. if you're cut and don't make the team, tough.
Khalil Herbert was a 6th rounder, guaranteed $130k; 7th rounders aren't guaranteed much more than $100k.
fwiw, Deablo got 982k signing bonus as a 3rd rounder, nothing else guaranteed. Darrisaw and Farley both at ~7.1m signing bonuses with an extra 6-6.3m guaranteed
I don't know the current numbers. But a few years back, if I recall correctly, the money basically went down by roughly 50% with every 32 picks.
So a mid-2nd rounder got about twice that of a mid-3rd round pick - and a mid 3rd round pick got about twice that of a mid 4th round pick...and so on.
The money gets much smaller pretty quickly.
Like the earlier comment I was with you until the last sentence. I made a similar post a few days ago and just not liking these opt-outs. I understand (I think) their reasoning - I wouldn't want a career ending or career threatening injury because I played in an insignificant bowl between a pair of 6-6 teams either. I this particular case I dont agree with the decision - there was a lot of inconsistent and downright bad performances (see Miami) to finish the year and honestly, I think he'll be lucky to get drafted because of it. I'm still going to cheer him on and hope he's successful in the pros, but IMHO he needed another year of seasoning before turning pro.
Real Hokie fans support Hokies, including Hokie football players that have been playing for VT for years.
I was with you up until the "REAL Hokies" comment, not gonna downvote though. It's a business decision for them, they've been striving their entire lives to reach that level of football...for some of them, they may be getting bad advice and jumping the gun, but that doesn't make them any less of Hokie. I'll be rooting for them to get drafted and have success just as I have rooted for anyone who has put on the O&M
Imagine being so entitled that you feel it necessary to call into question the Hokiehood of football players who are entering the draft AFTER GRADUATING AND RECEIVING DEGREES FROM THE UNIVERSITY.
If they had decided to stay, cool. Since they decided to go, they don't owe anyone anything else after their degree.
Do you have a link to his announcement?
Andy Bitter posted this:
Thanks, I once knew how to post tweets but I've since forgotten.
1 - Open Twitter using the desktop version (doesn't work on mobile).
2 - Click on the three dots on the top right of the tweet and select embed tweet.
3 - Click on the blue copy code button on the new screen that opened up.
4 - Paste that code into TKP.
It can work on mobile, but you have to access through your browser and not the app.
Good. Go make money.
We are going to have it on full display the situation that Fuente has left us in the bowl game.
Pry certainly has a lot of work to do. No doubt about that. We all knew the next guy would have a mountain to climb so nobody should be surprised by this.
That said, the ACC is really down right now and it's there for the taking.
Coastal:
Duke - Parted ways with Cutcliffe and will have a new coach in '22. Finished 3-9
GT - Geoff Collins is on the hot seat; Finished 3-9
Miami - New HC and new AD; Finished 7-5
UNC - Recruiting well but Mack is a zombie. Finished 6-6
Pitt - Losing star QB Pickett and stud OC Whipple; Finished 11-2*
UVA - Bronco 'noped' right out of C'ville after Finishing 6-6
VT - Parted ways with Fuente after losing 5 games in '21; Finished 6-6
There were exactly two winning teams in the entire coastal division in 2021. Pitt is losing a generational QB talent and their OC who guided their offense to the top echelon of college football offenses. Miami is a shit show. With the commitment that VT is making to the assistant coaching pool (a significant increase from years' past, however not top of the league) VT is reasonably well positioned to take advantage of a pretty soft league. With even marginally better coaching VT could find themselves in the ACC CG by this time next year. The league is very, very winnable right now.
Atlantic:
BC - Jeff Hafley still trying to figure things out; Finished 6-6
Clemson - Dabo is losing both coordinators, possibly his AD, and is in for some hurt. Finished 9-3
FSU - Lots of talent squandered; Finished 5-7
L'ville - IDK who their coach even is; Finished 6-6
NCST - I think Doeren has hit his ceiling; Finished 9-3
'Cuse - who would have thought Babers would outlast the rest of the coaching class of '16?; Finished 5-7
Wake - Dave Clawson signed a huge deal, but he's losing his generational QB. This was their year and they couldn't get it done. Finished 10-3*
The Atlantic isn't as bad as the Coastal but with Clemson backsliding there is certainly some upheaval in the division. I don't think Clemson is going to get back to their championship caliber very quickly after departures of Venables and Elliot. Dabo has his work cut out for him. I doubt very seriously that the success Wake has had is sustainable. With Hartman leaving I imagine they're going to drop back into the middle of the division where they belong. NCST has probably hit their ceiling as an 8-9 win team year to year. Then there's everybody else.
Has Fuente left VT in a tough spot for Pry? Yes, absolutely. But Pry is also coming into a great situation where it's not going to take very much to get back to the top of the Coastal and perhaps take advantage of a weakened Atlantic to win an ACC title in the next year or two. The real work is going to come in the next 3 to 5 years where he has to prove that kind of success is sustainable in a league that figures to get better in the years to come.
But for right now, the ACC is complete garbage and I'm fairly confident that VT is positioned to get right back in the driver's seat in short order with even slightly improved coaching. We shall see, of course.
I mean I agree with everything you just said. Every bit of it. The ACC is in chaos right now and we are making our move at the right time. If we are strategically positioning ourselves correctly and building out a legitimately good recruiting staff and Pry carries his defensive prowess he's had everywhere else here, there's no reason to think we shouldn't be legitimately in the ACC title mix in a sustainable fashion within 3 or 4 years, and possibly sooner if cards fall right.
A lot has to go right, but the rest of the conference couldn't have fallen apart at a better time for us. Feels like the playing field is leveled right now, and we're finally dedicating ourselves to competing financially, which could be perfect for us.
But at the same time, I was just saying with my earlier comment that we're not going to be able to mask our issues with the performance of a couple key players in the bowl game like we've been able to do at times this year. If there were any questions on the situation that Fuente would potentially have going into next year, they'll be answered in NYC.
Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. Just adding supplemental thoughts on it. The bowl is going to expose (and exacerbate) our vulnerabilities. And VT might be able to win the ACC in one or two years but it's going to take 4 or 5 before we can even hope to compete with legitimate P5 programs outside the ACC. I could totally see VT losing 2 or 3 OOC games and winning the ACC in 2022. My point is that the ACC is just that bad. Not that VT has the talent to win with better coaching. Better coaching will win us the ACC. But it's going to take huge improvements in recruiting and player development before we can compete with the upper tiers of other P5 leagues. I don't think the ACC will have a representative in the Playoff for another 2 or 3 years. The league is just awful right now. Good timing for all these new coaches. Somebody needs to seize the opportunity. I hope it's us.
Ordinarily I'd agree on the timeline, but think we could shorten it to maybe about 3 to be competitive outside the ACC if Pry and company can pick up some key pieces from the portal in his first two years and potentially picking up some real studs on the recruiting trail.
My timeline is admittedly conservative. Pry will need time to not only recruit but also develop talent in Blacksburg. I can't say how long that will take. Our best-developmental-program-in-the-nation coach couldn't develop any talent in 6 years so I have no real frame of reference there. I want to take this opportunity to differentiate between my expectations and my opinion on the situation VT finds itself in relative to the ACC and the country. I am only expecting these coaches to come in and show measurable progress over the course of a year as well as progress from year to year. I don't expect these coaches to come in and win the Coastal right off the bat. That would be an unreasonable expectation IMO. I have no expectation for win totals. They might only win 3 games. Whatever. If they are able to show progress over the course of the year and then win appreciably more than 3 games in year 2 I'll feel good about the direction we're heading.
That said, It is my opinion that the ACC is absolute rubbish right now and I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for these coaches to come in and, with the very limited talent we have, still manage to win the Coastal with relative ease. Depending how productive they can be using the Transfer Portal we could be in better shape faster than most of us anticipate. However, the ACC is so far behind everybody else that winning the ACC doesn't equate to being competitive with the rest of the P5. I don't think it is within the realm of possibility for these coaches to beat top tier teams from other leagues with the talent we have. They will need to recruit, develop and manage the roster over a few years to get to that level. Winning the ACC is easy. Competing with top teams from the B1G, SEC, Big 12, etc. is a much taller task.
This is absolutely fair. I don't want to get our expectations too high right off the bat, especially given all the transfers and draft entries we're looking at. We're most likely going to be thin and young next year. Like you, I'm not going to be getting expectations up too much (results will be a nice surprise), but will also be looking for those incremental improvements in recruiting, development, and on field results.
I'm wondering if some of these people (sports analysts) saying we can get to the ACCCG or the playoffs relatively quickly are aware of the transfers and draft entries and where the roster is at and thinking we have more pieces for a good coach like Pry to work with than we actually will.
Edit: even with the ACC being trash and a lot of other coaching changes, I think our roster turnover is going to hurt us more than anything. Maybe not everyone winds up leaving, which helps, but if they do, teams without as much talent but a lot more experience can win, so I'm planning on keeping my expectations low to start.
The program is in a pretty similar position to where it was at the end of the Beamer era, and Fu-Corn almost won the ACC in Year 1, and that was a year when a lot of folks considered the ACC the best conference in football (crazy, I know). There's no reason to think we can't immediately win 8-10 games a year and compete for the ACC title, especially with the relaxed transfer rules and everything.
I think we should be competing for the conference sooner than 3-4 years; how about next year?
At the same time, Beamer left behind a few more legitimate weapons than Fuente is leaving. We had a decent OL, and combined with Isaiah Ford, Cam Phillips, and Bucky Hodges at receiver/TE and a defense that included Tim Settle, Ricky Walker, Chuck Clark, Tremaine and Terrrell Edmunds. We had plenty of top end talent that just wasn't getting the proper gameday coaching that was necessary, and didn't really have a QB to push us over the top. Jerrod Evans was definitely a big missing piece that helped it all come together.
Unfortunately, looking at the roster we have going into next year, its going to take a lot more than getting a good QB to vault us up.
yeah we have a dearth of talent (thanks Fuente) so it's going to take a while to compete with the top echelon. But winning the ACC is pretty much in the cards immediately.
Yeah, comparing rosters, I have to say we're way off from what Fuente had to start. The Edmundi were both first round picks that year if I'm not mistaken. We have a LOT of players entering the portal or entering the draft. We'll have to see how many wind up staying, but our roster is going to be way off from what Fuente had. Even if there are talented players on our roster, they're going to be a lot younger and unproven. I know we're posting when people enter the portal or are trying to get drafted, so maybe someone with some spare time can start a thread with all our starters (or 2-deep) and their status for next year (returning, transferring, graduating, pro). It's feeling like we're not going to have many starters returning.
I think from a talent and depth standpoint, we are well behind where we were when Fuente took over.
Probably the most interesting thing about this Bowl Game will be as an insight to see what Pry has to build from (and likely just how far he has to go).
Beyond just pure talent, the Roster Mismanagement has left us incredibly thin at multiple positions---its a good thing Hoffman is planning on playing or I'm not sure who we would put out along the OL.
The DL is largely patchwork at this point. Other than Kaleb Smith, no one else at WR has even 10 career catches and then we have a glut of RB, most of whom have never seen live action in a Game.
Beamer definitely left some holes as well, most notably at QB and, to his credit, Fuente quickly filled that with a very talented QB in Evans, but this current Roster is definitely not equivalent to the team that finished 2015.
Personally, I love "with that being said..." season on twitter.
I don't, it usually means we're losing someone before their eligibility is exhausted.
*mixed feelings about all of this*
Good luck dude, go represent DBU!
hopefully some true freshman get some reps...would like to see harvey and nyke johnson
fwiw, Harvey was on Instagram live last night and someone asked him if he was staying at Tech and he said he was staying.
bowls are such a joke now. glorified scrimmage. They need to figure something else out or just get rid of them.
I am a fan of restricting bowl eligibility to 8/9 wins. The current bowl circuit is so vast that players don't have much pride in participating. As a fan, I have very little desire to watch two 6-6 teams go at it.
I think I said it in another thread, but I am behind getting rid of the bowl for the 6-6 teams if they let everyone have the extra practices.
That means the NCAA would have to tell several of these corporate sponsors who created the lesser bowls to take their endorsements and advertising revenue and kick rocks.
And when have we known the NCAA to turn down money?
(In principle I don't disagree with you, but those dollar signs complicate things.)
It's funny how folks almost universally get bent out of shape when the spring game isn't televised (or even played), yet a solid chunk of fans say bowl games are boring, meaningless, should be reduced/eliminated, etc.
If I didn't know better, I'd think some people just like to complain...
Me? I'm always in favor of more college football and don't really care if it's just the guys remaining after the dust clears. I'm starting to view it as a preview of many players - and a preview of how they may fit into the scheme of things in something much closer to a real game (albeit not so much for teams undergoing coach changes) than a spring scrimmage.
In fact, since the guys who weren't always invested in bowls are now opting out, in some ways it's now a clean slate for many players. So I actually think you'll see guys more apt to play their asses off, not less. And while the play may not always be well-oiled, it might make for some interesting, fun to watch games.
Playoff made everything about the playoff and inevitably that meant over time (and rapidly) the rest of the bowls have become increasingly meaningless. I still enjoy watching them, but they definitely lack the weight they used to hold.
I don't blame these guys one bit for skipping the bowl, especially one like this where both teams are 6-6. How many times have you seen guys get hurt in a bowl game and it costs them a potential pro career.
It's an exhibition. Excited to watch the young guys play, but I'm not going to get too up or down based on the result.
Not to be snarky, but can you answer your own question? I can't recall this happening to anyone of note, though I'm sure it has. That said, even a seventh rounder gets like half a million dollars if they're signed, so I fully support opting out.
I know players expected to be high draft picks take out insurance policies for things like this. I wonder if they would insure lower picks as well.
I don't think 7th rounders get that much of a signing bonus. Google wasn't helpful, but it looked like in 2020, 5th rounders were getting around 300K signing bonus.
Yep. I'll be using your comment as a relevant place to share some numbers related to draft position contracts and signing bonuses.
Some examples from the 2020 Draft:
4th Round, Pick 107 (1st in 4th): 4-year, $4.11M contract - $817,512 guaranteed signing bonus.
5th Round, Pick 167: Jake Fromm, 4-year $3.59M contract - $302,960 estimated signing bonus.
Mr Irrelevant (last pick in 7th round): 4-year $3.37M, starting salary ~$628,873 - $75,490 signing bonus.
While obviously not ideal, and many late round picks find themselves quickly on practice squads or off rosters entirely within the first year, if they manage to hang around for even a year making 600k your first year out of college puts you in extremely rarified territory relative to your peers. Even if you fail to even make the practice squad and collect much of that opening contract as Mr. Irrelevant starting off your professional (non-football) career with a 75k head start and no college debt is putting you in a very comfortable financial situation relative to your average college graduate peers.
If you go in that spot that Jake Fromm went, change that last sentence from 75k to 300k. You can start your life at 21-23 years old with the ability to put a down payment on a house to start building equity and pretty nice head start on your retirement planning if you decide to set a chunk of that aside to grow interest for the next.... 45 years.
I also think there is a faulty logic used among all fanbases in this sport (and many others) that assumes progression in perpetuity in terms of getting better at whatever sport you play. Some of these guys have maxed out their potential, hit their ceiling, etc. in regards to how good they will be at football. Staying another year when you've been in school for 4 or 5 years does not automatically guarantee you will be drafted higher, or at all, if you stay another year. This is further complicated by a new staff, scheme, etc. which could see you backslide or redirect your progression as a player in a way that doesn't make you a materially more appealing prospect.
I recall that Miami RB getting his knee completely destroyed against Ohio State in the Championship game but that's been like two decades ago.
Yeah, it still hurts looking at it now (I actually think this season was exactly 20 years ago)
oof...that's a stiff arm he wishes he didn't miss
You're not wrong. That hit basically sent McGahee's career on a different path. Yeah, he got drafted by Buffalo in the first and played 10 years in the league, but he was never as explosive as he was at Miami and never lived up to the hype he had in college.
I'll drink.
Jaylon Smith and Jake Butt are two big examples. Both suffered extensive knee injuries.
And I don't care if our guys are going to be 7th round picks. Any injury hurts their chances that much more, and this bowl game is a glorified exhibition.
I acknowledge that this is nearly 20 years ago now, and so not really disputing your overall point, but I will never forget what happened to Willis McGahee's left knee in the MNCG (Tostito Bowl) following the '02 season. He was a consensus top-5 pick prior to the injury that occurred in the final quarter of his collegiate career. Amazingly he still ended up being drafted in the 1st round, but something like 20 places lower than he would have gone. Plus he had to sit out his entire rookie season to rehab his knee. He went on to have a good career and certainly made plenty of money, but that injury likely cost him $25M+.
I'm sure there are guys who have been injured in bowl games, but they can't be very numerous. I've certainly never seen any actual stats on it.
In some ways, it's like many rule changes supposedly put in place to reduce injuries (but probably put in place mostly to show the sport "cares" if there is ever litigation)
I really think this "leaving" early is a factor of guys who have already earned degrees, are burned out and looking to move on with the next stage of their life. If they can't make it in the pros, they have their degree to lean on, now. It's not like most of these guys are 2 or 3 year products.
We also need to clear the roster due to the extra covid year, so there is that.
Also i'm pretty sure Waller has been in mock drafts. So it's not like he isn't getting drafted before at minimum the 4th round.
Not a big fan of the opt-outs. You have probably about an equal chance with a serious injury in any type of intense practice, so unless you're expecting a big payday from the draft, I think you might be lowering your draft status by opting out. What's the difference, bowl game with your brothers or Senior Bowl practices or game Heck, even the Combine is a risk. I'd say go with what got you here, but that's just my two cents. If you play at something less than full effort, that's even more of an injury risk.
Waller has been battling injuries all season and stuck it out. He has also been on a few hogh draft projections. I dont see any reason for him to play in a crappy bowl instead of getting ready/healthy for the draft
I tend to agree for fully healthy guys who are not day 1-2 picks, but I think in Waller, Turner, and Lecitus Smith's cases (off the top of my head) those are guys who have been battling injuries throughout the season or at the end of the season. Lecitus Smith played through injury against UVA and came out and said explicitly that it may have been a bad idea in terms of recovery.
Man I'm getting really tired of the people bashing for opting out of a bowl game. Not a playoff game, just an average bowl game.
Nobody wants to talk about the shelf life on these young mens bodies. They have all dealt with injuries. From nagging ones that just won't let you get to that 100% or serious ones that won't let you compete.
Either way, the decision is theirs. Young men, please go get that cheddar (confirmed this may be the only cheese French likes...Sauces). Represent and help the old school out when you can. Thanks for being Hokies.
Well at least the remaining guys get 15 practices to focus on the scheme for one game. Let's see what Fuente left in the cupboard. Some underclassmen is going to make people irrationally excited for next year.
Baller Waller, gonna miss those INTs, hope he's wearing Ravens purple and black next season!
Going to miss him on Saturdays. Hope he gets a big bag.
I think many guys opting out (not just at VT) should read and re-read Bud Foster's recent tweet on the topic.
Nevertheless, I don't blame Waller at all for opting out. He will get drafted. But he has been dinged up most of the 2nd half of the year (and not surprising, his performance fell off commensurately) - and, even though there is film on him when healthy, he is probably best served by recuperating and preparing for draft workouts, etc.