Hey all,
I'm looking for any insight people are willing to share given the current market and doing a home renovation project.
Wife and I have been in our home for a few years and are wanting to renovate our kitchen and replace the old aluminum siding with hardie board among other small updates. We have gotten multiple quotes from indoor & exterior contractors as well as interior only and exterior only contractors.
We are close to moving forward but before we did, I wanted to ask the community for any lessons learned and/or insight on if it would be worth it to wait a bit given a possible recession in the next year.
Appreciate any advice.
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Ask for references and go look at the exterior siding jobs that they have done. Hardie Board can look like shit if not done correctly. Avoid guys that use caulk to cover up their mistakes.
Thanks for your suggestion. The estimates for the hardie board have been the biggest range between contractors which has raised some concerns and made me wonder about the quality of work.
Hardie board should be blind nailed (meaning the nails should be hidden under the overlap from the next-higher board). A lot of contractors will nail the lower edges and then caulk or paint over the nailheads and that will let moisture in eventually. Watch they'll also leave nailheads proud (higher than the board surface) or sunken (below the board surface) because they shoot faster/more than their compressors can provide for (proud) or they crank up the pressure too high (sunken).
Also, pay attention to wall/roof contacts and whether they're properly flashed.
Hardie Plank Installation Guide pdf
Skip the hardie board, go LP Smartside
We rented a jack hammer and did the demo work on a master bathroom redo and saved a bunch. We got three estimates and they varied widely in price. We looked at past work and checked references. The best was not the most expensive. That one also gave us two different rates when asked, a "put in the front of the line" and a "we will work it in when not busy" rate. By asking the right rate questions, doing our own demo, and being accommodating and willing to use a kids bathroom while they were in college for it to get done (which may not work for you and your kitchen) we ended up at around 1/3 of the original estimate.
We don't necessarily have a deadline we are trying to get the work done by so hopefully that has factored in the estimates so far.
As far as doing the demo yourself, did you rent a dumpster and take everything down to studs?
Would be open to any of those right questions I should be asking.
Maybe should have rented a dumpster, but we had small sink hole behind our house that turns into a mosquito breeding ground in the summer, which I just filled by the wheel barrow full and covered with a few bags of dirt. We took two of the walls down to the studs and removed a partial wall entirely, took the tile shower and tile floor down to the floor board, and cut out some floor board under the shower so the plumber could access and move the plumbing. We repainted the cabinets ourselves, and I reinstalled the trim after the flooring was replaced. I moved an electrical outlet and replaced the lighting fixtures, so they did not need to get an electrician. I removed the toilet and installed the new one. The contractor used a plumber to move the shower plumbing, head and controls, a framer for the new shower, dry wall crew, tile guy and painter. We waited almost 2 weeks for a time slot for the plumber, the framer came at odd times and took a week to get in about 14 hours. It turned out to not make much of a difference, because it took several weeks to get the right tile delivered. Rest of it went pretty smoothly. I have dry-walled, tiled, and painted before, but cannot make it look as good as someone with 100's of times the experience, so I am glad to pay them to do it. I do not mess with plumbing joints that I am going to cover with a wall or gas lines.
I just asked if I did all the demo what would that entail and how much would it save, and the same for being flexible with timing and working around higher paying projects. I just asked a lot of - what if I did that myself - and tried to be easy to work with.
Agree with H'burg's comment about references and visiting job sites. Hardie siding is a great product but the quality of the installation is just as critical as the product itself. I say that as someone who had to replace his siding due to a defective installation of a different product (Certainteed fiber cement siding) after just 10 years. Your profile says that you're in Arlington; if you're looking for references, we had an excellent experience with Preferred Siding, Inc., in Herndon.
As for recession concerns, two thoughts. First, as the housing market continues to cool, you may find that prices improve, but that's highly dependent on material costs and supply chain issues. I'm currently dealing with a similar situation (construction of a detached garage/workshop) and while lumber prices have been coming down, labor prices are not, at least for now. Ultimately, you want to use the space, so waiting to save a few dollars (which is not guaranteed) means you don't get to enjoy the upgrades. Second, while I obviously don't know your financial or job situation, you'll want to carefully evaluate the impact of adding any new debt.
If I may ask, what size garage did you end up going with? I'd like to build one in the next year, mostly to store equipment, small home gym, workshop with tools, and a processing area for our garden. I can do just about everything except concrete because I'm not confident enough in myself to do so but torn between traditional framing and one of those steel tubing kits. Thinking somewhere along the lines of 20x30 but don't want too much or too little
You could grade out the spot and form the pad and then pay a concrete crew to just come place and finish the concrete.
I've got almost no concrete or grading experience minus the hours of youtube videos I've watched and setting fence posts in concrete, which is just fill the hole and spray it with a water hose lol. I've got a contractor friend that could probably help me out so I might go that route
I would go with as large of a garage as you can do. You just listed a bunch of things you would like to do with that space and you are going to want to be able to move around comfortably without having to rearrange items.
I built a detached 24x28 garage at my last house as that was the largest I could do while staying within my lot coverage limits. I used every bit of space in that garage. I would suggest sketching out your floorplan and also think about which items can be stored on walls. Floorspace is going to be your biggest challenge.
Ideally I'd like to do something bigger but I'm working in the confines of my backyard which is roughly 70'x120'
You're right about sketching things out that'll probably aid the decision making process
Check your zoning setback requirements, you might need to keep that garage 20 to 40 feet off the side line of the lot. Get some simple stakes and stake it out in the field before committing to anything. You can see where it would sit, how are you going to access and most importantly if the wife also signs off.
We're General Agriculture so thankfully it's only 5' but yes the Mrs. will definitely need to approve...
Also watch out for unmarked sewer lines. Neighbor built a concrete floor shed over one, broke it, and the contract he signed with the contractor said he was liable because it was not marked.
And adding to that, do not assume a Miss Utility locate will find everything. Typically, they will only mark the public utility and may not mark anything on the private (homeowner side).
EDIT: I also ran into an issue with getting new garage doors this summer. Some garage doors had very long lead times. Some manufacturers were 6-8 months while others were 10-12 weeks.
Garage Doors heavily depends on the installer/retailer and *I believe* on their relationship with the manufacturer or their manufacturers rep, so reach out to several installers/retailers if there is a specific door you want. For the same custom doors I was getting quoted that same variance of lead times and it had nothing to do with the installers available manpower, but the ability of the installer to get the door from the manufacturer.
If the project is on private property and you let Miss Utility know that they do mark on private property. I have had them out several times recently for fence work and ditching on some projects.
There are a lot of factors. It varies state to state on how it is marked. In MD, the utility owner is required to mark their lines. Some self perform and others hire locating companies. But if the water/sewer provider does not own the service laterals, they could say they do not own anything in the area and that the area is clear.
Miss Utility missed a 6" water main for our plant and when the excavator found it we called and they said "huh that's odd hope you didnt break it"
It's always fun when digging in Arlington after getting all utilities marked and confirmed per plans when the auger pulls up an unknown fiber cable followed by Black SUVs quickly arriving to the site. I can say they did not appreciate us doing that.
If they didn't mark it, you aren't responsible for damages but it can still be a pain. Down here the fiber people have taken to just acknowledging the utility tickets as clear even if they have stuff in the ground because they don't want to bother marking it.
the headache wasn't that the Utility guys that were pissed. It was federal government people pissed that we destroyed their dedicated fiber line. This was a commercial project so it didn't really bother me other than the delays we encountered early on. I can tel you that old cities with little planning just suck with excavations. You never know what you're gonna find.
I want a three-car garage plus a workshop above, so the plan is for approximately 50x30, though that could change slightly as we work through final plans & builder selection. It's complicated by the fact that I'm on a hill and subject to Loudoun's steep slopes regulations, and the fact that I want to use precast hollow-core concrete slabs for the main level to basically create a "free" basement level where I'll store the tractor+implements and build out a small gym.
Lesson learned: next time I buy land, I will make sure that there is enough relatively flat area to accommodate all planned buildings; building shit on slopes is a pain in the ass.
I am somewhat familiar with the steel buildings that you describe but don't know much about them other than that my neighbor had one built about the size you're describing and is happy with it. I know that lumber prices have eased slightly, but not sure how much further they might come down, and I don't know enough to say why you might prefer one to the other.
As for too much/too little, I don't know anyone who ever said "damn, I have too much garage space", so my advice is to build as big as you have room for/can afford. :-)
I agree from watching prices over the last 6 months some of the material costs have dropped but labor seemed to remain the same.
We were told by a company that tradesman are pretty much charging whatever they want because the trades are a dying industry and it's difficult to find quality work. Tile pros are charging up to $50 an hour because "they can".
In their defense, good tile guys are worth their weight in gold
Only people that are worth more are drywall hangers and finishers. Sure I can do it, but I will take 10 times as long and it will look 50 times worse.
I'll add electricians to that as well, poor electrical work can be dangerous, but poor electrical knowledge can be deadly
I was shocked to discover how bad I was at electrical work........
Solid dad joke.
My 40 year master electrician at work has this joke taped to the back of his computer chair, he makes the safety people extremely nervous
I can *so* relate to this... if I have to do drywall work, it will eventually look... acceptable. With at least 3x the mud and twice as much sanding as an actual professional would have needed. :-)
As a trades guy I can confirm just because material prices are going down the work load only increases on an already aging and shrinking labor force. Good electricians are hard to get and ones who know their stuff can ask whatever they want for right now. Also while its easy to forget when dealing with this stuff inflation has raised alot of the smaller costs of doing business for trade workers. Things likes gas/diesel at all time levels, even if materials like wood are cheaper one thing that is far more expensive since the pandemic is wire, romex and bx have gone up and dont look to be going down anytime soon.
As someone who hates quoting work for people as its not my thing I really hate it when people try to ask if the price is cheaper because something like wood has gone down. I help with my families logging business and even through the whole boom in wood prices we never saw an increase in payouts for the raw material. That money was all stuck in supply chain and overhead so before you assume anything on costs of doing the dirty work these days be respectful of those who have dedicated their time to learning and honing their skills.
I am in the flooring industry, and I can confirm both of these statements. Material pricing is down from record highs this summer, but cost reductions have yet to totally work through the supply chain. That will take a while, and costs will still not come all the way back to pre-pandemic pricing in most materials as transportation and labor costs remain historically very high.
Speaking of labor, pricing definitely remains elevated, and GOOD tradesmen remain busy and able to collect premiums for their work. They are few and getting further between. There is a decades long decline in skilled trades in the U.S. and it will be difficult to fix this in any reasonable time frame. If you happen to find someone who is genuinely good at what they do in any trade, hold on to that contact info! Referrals are key, but expect to wait to get the right people on the job.
I would *highly* recommend Total Living Construction out of Springfield, VA. They have done quite a bit of work at my parents house over the years (addition, kitchen remodel, bathroom remodel, finished basement).
Bill, the guy who started the company, is excellent, honest, and in the rare instances that one of his subs makes a mistake, will make it right.
I will say they're not necessarily the cheapest, but their work is high quality.
Line up all your estimates on the same day roughly 30-45 minutes apart so they will most likely pass each other at some point (on the property, driveway or road to your house). This way they know they're in direct competition and a bidding war; you'll get everyone's best/lowest quote.
Happy renovating!
Yeah at the end of every visit when they ask for timeline so far we have said we still have a couple more contractors coming in to give a quote and we would get back to them after to try and accomplish this.
We decided to go with the LP Smartside over Hardie Board.
Never heard of it until this thread. How is the upkeep? Seems like it is a little more delicate when cleaning vs hardie.
We are still building but good references and warranty. Still a heavy duty material, but doesn't need to painted like Hardie does and is a lot more forgiving to install.
I wouldn't bank on material costs coming down drastically, it could happen but I highly doubt it. Labor prices are in all likelihood going to rise. Lots of retiring tradesman and not many stepping in to fill their shoes. I would speculate that the cost of the same spec job will at best remain the same over the next few years, if not increase. I'm in the roofing industry and while material availability is improving, costs are still increasing. Some jobs we quoted 3-4 years ago have increased as more than 50% at today's prices, same spec.
Now of course Chuck in a truck prices will come down once there's a recession. But I wouldn't recommend them anyway.
Unless the lowest possible cost is your only concern then you should hire one capable/ qualified GC that you trust to do it all. We've built one house, renovated another by ourselves and designed too many to count... playing contractor is never fun (unless of course you love constantly calling people to get them to show up)
A trusted contractor will cost more but they will have their dependable subcontractors, know some of the intricacies of what is going on and handle headaches before it gets to you.
Specifically about the kitchen - In my kitchen I had a soffit above the top cabinets and when I replaced them I didn't remove the soffit to extend the cabinets all the way to the ceiling. My kitchen would be WAY cooler if I had done that. So if you have what I have, do that.
Yeah we have a weird soffit currently that doesn't have any exhaust piping or other hidden service. The plan is to rip that thing out and have cabinets up to the ceiling.
Ducted hood/microwave over the stove. The best thing ever.
Full height wall cabinets in the kitchen. No need for the dust collector open top. Just run them the whole way up.
Laminate is bad in wet areas. I don't care what anyone selling it says.
If you're in the house for the long haul, there are some vinyl products (Azek) that compete with the fiber cement products. Last longer. Some come in through color rather than paint. More expensive.
Get a quiet dishwasher. Decibels are not linear. So, 43 vs 52 is a big difference.
And letting the architect come out... fake shutters are the worst. Don't do it. Also, don't paint brick. But, you don't have to worry about that one.
One contractor recommended LVT flooring, yay or nay?
We do have a bit of brick on the front along with what would be hardie and my wife has gone back and forth about painting it. I'd rather not but you know what they say...
LVT is fine. It's an upgrade over VCT. Get something from a company that has been in business for a while. Random ones that pop up and disappear shortly after are useless, from a warranty standpoint. If your adjacent floor finishes are thicker, you're going to have an awkward height transition.
Better brands will have better images for their surface. Generally will have thicker wear layers.
LancerHokie and I got LVT flooring installed in half the house now (anywhere that can get wet) and we love it. It is really easy to clean and we think it looks amazing. We replaced the hardwoods on the first floor with LVT because those idiot installers in the late 90s glued the hardwood directly to the concrete surface. There was no where for water to go and any water when straight through and caused cracking and warping all over the place.
I work for a commercial contractor in the DC area; the current market is what it is and isn't likely to come down anytime soon. Material prices have been what are largely influencing the big costs increases, and while things have stagnated a bit, some materials are actually still going up. It's all due to a lot of chemical manufacturers having plants overseas and the issues with transportation through the LA ports, raw material shortages, etc. causing increased prices plus surcharges applied by some manufacturers (we've had to switch some materials that we use because they have increased 400% since 2020).
Seems obvious, but apparently it isn't with a lot of people - make sure there is a contract put together that outlines payment structure and clearly outlines their scope of work. Don't agree to scope or payment changes without following up in writing confirming the conversation.
I would also highly recommend doing your own pre-condition survey prior to work starting. Wait until the day before or the day that they are mobilizing onsite and take a shit ton of photos of everything that they might come in contact with (material storage areas, walk paths, work locations, etc). It has saved us plenty of times when there is damage and we get blamed for something pre-existing. On the flip side, it can be very helpful for owners if something does get damaged.
Even put a process (i.e. deadline to submit cost impacts after the change is recognized) to scope changes in the contract so they don't come to you at the end asking for an addition 20% for something you may not have recognized. Also hold back 5-10% for punch list items.
Thanks for the suggestion.
GC's can be great, but they can also be very expensive. Depending on what you are planning to do. On the outside, if you are just replacing the siding, find a company that just does that the type of siding you are looking for, you don't need a GC. In the kitchen I would say it depends on how much of a change are you looking to make. Kitchen demo can be pretty easy and you could do yourself (if you can dismantle it you could donate it). If you are not looking to blow out walls and are keeping the layout pretty simliar, I'd just go to a kitchen and bath store and buy cabinets straight from them. A lot of them also install. Once you have the new layout, you can easily find a plumber or electrician to relocate a plug/outlet or two. The GC's value comes into play when you're really making a big change to the space.
Position it so it is oriented well for solar panels. Install an EV charger or two, possibly some battery storage in lieu of a generator.
Do a kitchen reno in the summer when cooking and eating outdoors is desirable.
Make sure you have the new cabinets in hand before you remove the old stuff. There is still a 4 month lead time on cabinetry according to the contractor that did our bathroom remodel this August. They had actually stopped taking those jobs until things improve because it just wasn't worth the headache at the moment.
Never take the word of a well intended friend. Throughly research every company. Don't know where you live but go Class A if possible.
Do it because you want to live in and enjoy it. With higher interest rates new construction may slow down but that is dependent on where you are. Just get a good contractor and a solid contract. Ask about the subcontractors too. They can be a pain.
If money is an object in the project we recently went with LP Smart Siding instead of hardi plank. Not as hard to install so it was cheaper to install and looks solid once painted. Offers a tiny bit of insulation value and lasts and looks better than normal vinyl siding.