Game isn't over, but we got blown out by Duke, so it's not worth waiting. The sad part is, there's very little about this team to look at right now and think that things will be better next year. In fact, it very much seems like we are on a one way mission to a winless 2023 season.
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Yes but are we two pick sixes in the first two plays from scrimmage dumpster fire?
#Perspective
Does it really matter? Lol
Who cares
We should not be benchmarking ourselves against a basketball school in football. The fact that we pride ourselves in 'oh at least we aren't as bad as the school whose coach quit because they refused to find him' isn't really a great thing.
exactly.
But we have no penalties! Improvement! ( Yes I'm being sarcastic ).
Seriously that's saying they are effed up more than me so I'm ok
Someone thought that a first time head coach, a first time OC, and a first time DC that still needs his training wheels would be a good call in order to save this program. A coaching staff that is incapable of adjustments or week to week improvements. Another Saturday, another full notebook for this defensive guru and alleged program builder.
Superbad was the formative comedy of my youth. This meme is just genius.
This has to be what he's doing, cause I don't know what the hell else it could be.
Yes, they're bad this year. I'm still hoping Pry can turn this program around in the long run. It's true, though, it's hard to watch.
JUST TAKE A FUCKING SHOT AT THE END OF THE GAME. IT'S OVER, WE GET IT, BUT TRY TO SCORE. Shit, throw out 11 freshman for all I care, just try something at all. This team is an embarrassment right now. No one can catch a ball, offensive playcalling that makes me yearn for the days of Stinespring, defense that is either tired or gets dismantled on 3rd and 4th downs. It's just so painful to watch. I have never wanted a VT season to be over so much as I want this one to be over.
Pry doesn't look like he's the guy.
Sorry, Duke isn't more talented, doesn't have more resources and we beat mostly the same roster by 30 last year.
This coaching staff isn't getting the job done and there is little to nothing point to to make you think '23 or '24 is going to be any better.
We got housed by a better coached team.
We're a basketball school.
It's over. Fuente killed it. Pry is trying his best to revive it but sadly he hasn't proven he has the chops to be the head whistle.
We need an infusion of talent from the transfer portal to be even a decent team next year.
Given the talent we have, we probably need back to back Top 25 recruiting classes just to break .500 again.
Remember, we are going to go 2-10 with the weakest schedule we've had in probably 50 years. We are abysmal
I don't see a single glimmer of hope that pry can turn this around. Honestly what is there to be hopeful for next season?
We are not going to have better players next year, so to the people that are complaining about the talent level on our roster, that's not getting better.
Don't know what the answer is at QB; but I'm pretty sure it's not Wells. Very poor pocket presence; very slow reading the defense and finding the proper receiver; and no idea how to throw anything other than a fastball. Maybe the staff sees a possibility that he can develop; but I think you're looking for lightning to strike out of a clear blue sky. But to be fair, we have a very bad oline; maybe if he had a little more time, he could do better.
Idk man. Even when he has the time to set his feet and gets the right receiver, he either bows it through the guy's hands or airmails him by 20 yards......
VT's offense is rotted to the core. It's fundamentally rotten. Wells threw it all over the yard at Marshall with ease. Yeah, he threw some picks, but the kid didn't forget how to throw an out pattern. The offense is rotten to the core. Pry needs to decide - and soon- how he wants it to go. Does he go 1 read spread - Leach, Gundy, Kiffin, Riley, Briles? Or does he go multiple like what Rudolph coached at Wisky. That tree includes guys like Locksley, Harbaugh, Franklin, Dabo. He needs to pick one, go through whatever growing pains are, but pick an offense damn it- or get fired. If he goes one read, recruit players for that and hire a guy that knows it and can move the chains. If he goes multiple, same. What we can't do is try to be a lame, weak jack of all trades offense. It hasn't worked at VT in 15 years. I think Fu tried to go more 1 read in his later years with his dart board WR/RB recruiting strategy that didn't work. If Pry wants to go multiple, he better damn hit the portal for a blocking TE, H-Back that can play football, and some big WRs. I won't mention the dismal OL play. Rudolph knows what he is doing, so I trust he is bringing in guys for his system. Vice wanted dudes that could move and play all 5 positions. Those dudes clearly can't execute what Rudolph wants. Its a fucking disaster- unmitigated on that side of the ball right now. the worst offense in the P5 and then some.
I hate the dreaded "multiple" offense term, especially in college. It's like you're ok at a lot of different things but not great at any particular one. Especially in the college game where practice time is limited, there's realistically only so much the players can absorb. The most effective college offenses are relatively simple systems that maximize doing a few bread and butter things really well and having some creativity there with formations/alignments. We appear to do really nothing particularly well.
I can't second this enough. I'm tired of hearing "multiple" in regards to our offense. As DC noted, our offense hasn't been good in over a decade. I don't know what's in the water in Blacksburg but something is killing offense here. I've been longing for a simple, effective offense since 2008ish and we're no where close to getting there. We thought Stinespring was bad. Then Loeffler was worse. Then Cornelsen managed to be even worse. Now Bowen is the worst we've had in my lifetime. It's like, every time we get a new OC, we get even worse on offense. I almost don't want to fire him just because the next guy is bound to be, somehow, even worse. Blacksburg is cursed, I swear.
Yep. Art Briles (being subhuman scum aside) gains 400 yard in warm ups. His offense is lethal and incredibly simple. Force the defense to guess, and teach the QB what his ONE read is in the passing tree. Done. Score 45 points every game. It actually is that simple. Look at RG 3- he was unstoppable in that system, and yet Jay Gruden said he couldn't play and it took him months to learn an NFL check down.
Look at what Huepel is doing at Tennessee - spreads the field stupid wide so his players can win 1v1 battles. It's wildly simple and creative.
yes. problem is when ever VT goes 4 wide, the defense says "meh".. we are keeping 8 men in the box because you can't execute a hot read. Been doing it for years. Corny tried to go 4 wide all the time. The defense was like - lol
That was one of the best breakdowns I've read of the offense. The only issue in relation to VT is it seems you need well above average athletes at the receiver position and preferably tall ones too if you're just going to give them 1v1's all the time, neither of which we really have
To be a top 5-10 team with this offense, you need studs at receiver (this goes for any offense though). But to be a top 25 team, I think you can run this system with good (not amazing) receivers, and still be successful. You just need to be disciplined and able to keep up the tempo.
Personally, I wouldn't want VT to run this offensive system. I think you're completely screwing your defense if you don't score, and I will never be convinced that a VT offense can score at will.
But I think the point stands: there's no need to overcomplicate a college offense. There are other simple(r) offensive schemes that don't need all-americans at every position to be successful.
cough did someone say triple option? cough
You jest, but I would LOVE to run Jamie Chadwell's or Lance Leipold's systems - both of which are 'modern takes' on the triple option (even though the QB routinely passes for 2000+ yards/season).
Yep. "Multiple" translates to "lacking identity"
Can't leg this enough. I've never seen the leader of a good (college) offense say they are 'multiple'. I guess I feel a little bit better that the comment came from Pry, not Bowen, but to your point - this offense does not have an identity. Maybe that's due to personnel, maybe it's due to coaching (we won't know until the roster turns over), but there is no identity on the field.
This is the offense I've always envisioned working at VT:
Dominant running game, mobile QB that you can occasionally run ZR and go off-script, vertical passing game off-play action. OL is the tone-setter. Real fuck you pay me energy. Couple this offense with a typical VT defense and that's easily a national championship contender. Especially with more and more defenses playing a 4-2-5 scheme.
That's why I was so damn excited when Rudolph was announced (he was on staff during Wilson's season there). You're right - Vice Squad isn't close to a good fit for what Rudolph / Wisconsin has traditionally done with their OL. Shit is going to take time.
Having skipped the last 3 games and come back to watch this one is like not paying attention to my 401K statements for the past 3 months and opening one up to see what it is worth now.
What is Elko doing right now with Duke that Pry can't get done at Virginia Tech?
Seem like Elko has made it known that he wants to win now. I haven't seen any similar rhetoric from Pry.
Elko was legitimately left a better roster. Save me the composite, we all remember that Fuente loaded up on higher RBs and ATHs every year and most haven't seen the field. Of the actual players we do have playing on a game by game basis, the talent just isn't there.
And Elko has a QB. Pry doesn't. That helps more than anything.
Thanks for the hearty laugh.
This is objectively incorrect.
He didn't say "more talented" roster. He said "better" roster.
Roster construction is a skill. Fuente did not have it. Having more higher ranked players, but having them be concentrated at certain positions, does not a better roster make.
Cling to the talent argument if you want, but we all just watched Duke handle us and give us our 7th loss in a row. We don't have the talent, nor the coaching apparently to develop any.
Semantics aside...Duke was 0-8 in ACC last year and possibly one of the worst teams in ACC history.
Their 2 best offensive players are gone.
Saying they have a Roster that is superior to ours on an overall basis is a leap of logic I think is very difficult to take.
At the end of the day, what does it matter?
That roster just kicked VT's ass. Plenty of blame to go around as to why, but as I've said before I prefer to blame grown men getting paid a lot of money for not being good enough than teenagers.
Also it's literally wrong. They've schemed their way to a decent season. The only big roster move they made was bringing in three transfer O line, all three who are in the main rotation. That's no small accomplishment getting three transfers to play as well as they have, seeing as we've had complete regression from more talented guys up front
Nope. You are also "literally wrong" by saying those are they only big roster moves they made. They also brought in an award winning Darius Joiner who has been a stud and is 17th in the country in tackles
Damn, they brought in a Western Illinois DB??? Nevermind then, I'm surprised they're not in the playoff hunt.
No you actually. An FCS RB is not a big roster *move*. They've coached him up well and built a good O Line to block for him. Either way further proves the point that he was not left with a better roster. You're completely bullshitting if you believe that
hey. fuente left us 38 running backs. Surely one of those guys could've thrown a dozen picks and taken 5 sacks per game. No need for an actual QB, much less a Heisman contender...
No its not- its a fact. Elko has a legit RPO QB that took his lumps in that offense last year and is pretty damn good. They also have the best RB in the ACC. How are our RB's doing? Are they more "talented" than that kid? lol. I guess so "on paper". Also Elko's defense is better- why? because they make mudane stops in the first quarter like Pry's does... but they also get off the field on key downs like 3rd and forever- like Pry's defense DOESNT do- ever. When we need a stop, when we have to have a stop- we don't get one. Someone runs into a ref, someone trips, some LB takes a horrid angle, some DB looks lost on a 50/50 ball, some mid level ACC QB finds the huge gap in pry's zone. Elko's defense doesn't do that. They make stops on 2nd and 20. Fact. Add it up, and Duke is in a NY's day decent bowl somewhere and Pry has the worst team in the P5. I don't want to hear about 247 rankings.
I think you can make an argument that Elko inherited a roster that better fit what he wants to do. I think your point about the QB position is valid too.
I think it's a tad misleading to say "Elko was legitimately left a better roster" but, to your credit, you did elaborate on this a bit.
Give me an option of Pry or Elko though, and I'm making the switch no doubt about it.
It's too soon to tell. Elko is going to try to out-scheme other teams. Pry is going to try to get better talent. Pry's strategy will take longer to implement. As I've said in other comments, I'm waiting until to see next year's roster before making a judgement on Pry. Rumor is that we're going to portal up hard this off season... we'll see if it happens.
Well if recruiting is going to improve, it would be nice if that could start now
It will take time - I don't know if you read the pieces in the Athletic, but a lot of high school coaches said they haven't heard from VT football in years.
That said, the upcoming transfer portal season will be key. If we don't see at least 30% roster turnover entering fall practice next season, Pry's seat should be hot. Until then, it can be cold AF IMO.
Fuente had 10 wins his first year here...
Fuente also had J Evans and 10 NFL players on his starting roster IIRC. It's not the same comparison.
Maybe pry should have gotten more than a 2* transfer quarterback. Maybe not waiting a month to hire a first time oc would have helped with that.
He couldn't get a better transfer QB bc Fuente burned the place to the ground. Fuente had 3 borderline NFL receivers and a loaded defense to sell along with immediate playing time. Apples and oranges comparison
Fuente was better with X's and O's imo. I liked his ideas and the d retained Foster. That was a good plan. Problem was Fuente didn't jive with players and the whole thing went downhill- someone needs to write a book on it
But....pry has a shot at this - but it all seems to rely on him recruiting and retaining. Otherwise we have just a little further down to go. (Zero wins).
If this is going to work, then Pry needs to find his "Bud Foster" for Offense Coordinator and quickly. I also feel like the recruiting grade is a very basic C. If it's a talent issue, then seems like this might be a top 3 priority in the offseason.
There's no way we couldn't get a better transfer qb than kid Price picked out if we had hired an experienced play caller much earlier.
And Bud Foster.
Duke was 0-8 in ACC last year
So than the coaching for VT is just significantly worse than Duke after the new hires. They play the same teams we do, the who was "left the better roster" argument only looks worse for us.
Does that make anyone feel any better about the results this season or the hope moving forward?
Duke is going bowling and we will win 2 games.
You could earn a spot in Stalin's cabinet with this kind of revisionist history
1. He didn't hire an O.C. who's "best" resume point was at Fordham
2. He didn't hire a D.C. who had never been above a position coach.
3. He has actually developed players and made them better. What we do in practice is a pure mystery to me, but it isn't making anyone better at football
This^
Elko's OC (Kevin Johns) has a history of offensive mediocrity - At Indiana from 2014-2016, he had one top 60 offense, and two offenses outside the top 100 (per SP+). His one year as OC at Texas Tech had a decent offense, and in three years at Memphis he had one great offense and two mediocre ones.
Robb Smith - Elko's DC - also has some good seasons mixed in with a ton of mediocrity. He led a good defense in 2012 Rutgers, was fired from Arkansas and then Minnesota, when to be an analyst for Jimbo (likely where he met Elko), coached a top 50 defense for Rutgers, then wound up at Duke.
Mixed results >>>>> No results.
Even if they're not the crème de la crème of coordinators, they've at least done it before so Elko doesn't have to babysit them. He can be a head coach.
Pry went and got two guys that he thought could be elite. Which could still be true but it's a lot of learning on the job. It's safe to say this season would've been better with experienced coordinators. This approach has a higher potential ceiling but they better FITFO fast
If he had hired coordinators with those crap resumes the pitchforks would have been out and this site would be clamoring for "a new up and comer with some energy that can relate to recruits." Lose lose situation
Well technically hiring a good OC was a possible winning situation s/
I agree and given the choice between two schools of hiring, like the way Pry did it. I was just saying Pry's approach was higher floor and lower ceiling.
I'm not even full pitchfork out for Bowen or anyone on staff yet. I can live with the whole program (players and coaches) taking some lumps this year as everyone learns, but that only flies for so long.
Still more experience than what we have calling plays
To be fair, Marve may have the title but Pry is still the DC.
Which is also part of the problem. Pry should have turned over the reigns long ago so he could work on being a better HC.
Pry's mentor was James Franklin. Good recruiter, horrible game manager. I'm not sure that giving up the DC role is going to improve his decision making abilities.
Franklin just toyed with Maryland's best team in 15 years. Played around with them, crushed them- a fellow big 10 team. When was the last time we beat an ACC team not named Duke or UVA by 30? Give me that please if that is the Pry model. Say what you want but Franklin can recruit and coach at a pretty high level all things considering.
I was genuinely curious. Last time we beat anyone other than 2021 Duke by 30+ was GT in 2019. That was the first post-Chinballs matchup where we won 45-0.
And just to go into full research mode, all of our 30+ point wins since Beamer left:
2016 BC, 49-0
2016 ECU, 54-17
2016 UNC, 34-3
2016 uva, 52-10
2017 ECU, 64-17
2017 ODU, 38-0
2017 UNC, 59-7
2018 W&M, 62-17 (the only FCS game on this list)
2019 GT, 45-0
2021 Duke, 48-17
I was at that game-low down near the end zone..it was truly glorious! One of those games where everything went our way.
Sigh....to paraphrase Casablanca...."we'll always have Atlanta"
That game made me think for the briefest of moments that maybe Fu had righted the ship. Very fun dub
Franklin won at Vanderbilt. The guy is a good coach, full stop
While its Duke and they have a ceiling for various reasons not worth getting into right now, David Cutcliffe established a good culture there. But because its Duke and those reasons I'm referencing, they go thru periods where they'll be good (bowl eligible or better) and times where they'll win 3 games. Cutcliffe at the end was in one of those downward cycles but its not like the Duke program was complete trash when he left. Elko stepped into a roster that had better talent distribution than ours and more importantly, a culture that still had good habits despite their record the last year or so. VT under Fuente the final 3 years was a massive dumpster fire. It got masked a bit because other teams shittyness (looking at you UVA) bailed us a couple of times and gave us extra wins we didn't deserve. You're all now seeing just how far down we are. We've been this bad for awhile. We have a big climb. Pretty much every coach would be at the same spot if they were coaching VT right now
I appreciate this post because it's very much the thoughts I had during and after the game.
The situation that Cutcliffe left Duke in is more comparable to how Beamer left VT, not Fuente.
This just in: Commonwealth Clash to be broadcast on Comedy Central this season.
*taps the sign*
"This program has been a mess for years. Not gonna see tangible progress in year 1. Stop stressing"
Gonna see Wakanda Forever tonight. Should be a good time.
With all due respect, and I do mean all due respect, the very concept of a year zero is a loser mentality.
With all due respect, Year Zero is a real concept for rebuilding teams and there are many examples of teams who built from Year Zero into a winner.
We just got kicked in the dick by a lesser program treating their first year as need to win.
FTFY
Yeah but it doesn't apply to us this year. It's for teams that have been completely hollowed out roster wise and or cratered in terms of W/L.
The amount of guys with a ton of experience on defense and solid experience on the OL, you could expect a good staff to put together a decent team.
Yes there are teams that seem to be building from "Year Zero" to a winning mindset, for example...
*checks notes*
Duke
And Mora Jr. at UConn (who was absolute trash, and just became bowl eligible by beating a Liberty team that is going to stomp the Hokies next week)
Save this "Year Zero" nonsense. It only holds if you actually show improvement. We are worse, or at best no better at all than when the season started.
You don't think it's been done before? I can think of probably 20 examples off the top of my head of coaches that won 1-2 games their first year and turned it around to double digit wins in a few years.
I know it's been done before. I just pointed out two of the most recent examples.
What I'm saying is that nothing I've seen to this point suggests that kind of turn around, in "year" 1, or 2 or otherwise
Those guys have some upper classmen actually worth a crap. Other than a few outliers we don't. And we're getting nothing from the 2020 class. So it's basically old guys that haven't developed or young guys that haven't had the time.
I wouldn't know that for sure given how few games I've gotten to see lately thanks to our horrible media deals.
My guess next week is I'll be able to watch Bama vs Austin Peay but not our game.
This was the first game in years that I didn't watch one second of. I've just checked out this year. I have other stuff to do than get worked up over this football team. I have to give Bowen next year to be sure but right now he doesn't look like the right choice at OC. Wells is looking like a bad decision as well.
Why do our guys look so tentative, and to be fair, they looked the same way under Fuente.
Someone make Hokie football fun again!
Score a TD in the first 2 minutes and do absolutely nothing the rest of the game. Bowen stinks.
Wells didn't even hit 200 today.
Hey at least we got 0 penalties today. *shrug*
I mean, that is tangible improvement of a problem area. I know we'd all like to see gradual improvement in all areas consistently moving upwards. That's not really how it works though.
I'm a fan of Coach Pry and really want him the be the guy who brings VT back to her glory days. Only time will tell if he'll be able to do that but based on the results of season 1 it's not looking promising (I know it's only one season, so I'm not making a judgment call here).
It's very difficult to look at what is happening on the field and not scratch your head and wonder if Pry really has what it takes to do this job. He certainly says all the right things, but the product on the field is really much worse than any of us thought it would be, or really should be if we are being honest. For example take a look at his colleague across the field today, Mike Elko:
He has his Duke squad playing with some confidence while easily cruising to his 7th win of the season against a very discombobulated VT football team. Duke was faster, stronger at the point of attack and more sound at every level today. We can talk all day about the lack of talent, the new schemes, etc., etc. But at the end of the day, there should NEVER be a scenario where VT is getting blown out by an inferior Duke squad (I wouldn't watch the Liberty game next week if you aren't happy about today. They may win by 50). Never.
Duke has a 2022 team composite ranking of 84.96. Good for 12th in the ACC and 64th Nationally. VT's 2022 team composite ranking is 85.64. Good for 9th in the ACC and 53rd nationally. Now, this is only a small snapshot of what is going on, but at the end of the day we have the players to be competing at a higher level than we are currently seeing.
Fuente broke this program, but he didn't break it this badly. Coach Pry has a whole hell of a lot to work on this offseason, not least of which is his offense (particularly the OC and QB room). I don't envy his position. I'm sure whatever goodwill he had with the fanbase when he was initially hired is all but gone at this point. The only thing he can do is put his head down and get to work. And unfortunately, he not only needs to figure out how to convince high school players and transfers to come to VT, he'll also likely need to work much harder at recruiting current players and the fanbase than he otherwise would have had he and his staff been able to generate just a little more success this season.
The good news though is that he fixed the penalty issue today! Bad news, it had zero impact on the outcome of the game.
Kind of in the same boat. I like Pry but I'm starting to think this was a John Ballein good ol buddy hire after Whit struck out on Napier and probably a few others. If he doesn't shake up the staff and we don't have a winning record and strong upward trend in recruiting after three years, I think it's time to move on.
We're one of the worst teams in the worst P5 conference....Fuente created the mess no doubt, but make no doubt Pry hasn't helped. He wasn't aggressive in the portal this past off season, he hired inexperienced coordinators, and he himself has had issues with time management. I have no clue what he wants VT football to be, but this ain't it.
This last part is something I've been wondering the last few weeks ....is Brent Pry all Whit could get? Or was there something else going on? Right now it looks like Duke made a better hire than we did, and if that's the case then Whit needs the heat turned up on him as well.
I think VT is showing our true colors as a financially poor school who cannot pay to compete. We've made a ton of extremely poor financial decisions in recent years that pretty much screws us in the short to medium term.
And I don't think the academic side wants to have a competitive football program anymore.
This is pretty unsubstantiated - We're lagging in NIL, but from everything I've seen, we're top 30ish in football spending.
I believe Guitarman is actually employed by the university, and has communicated directly with Sands for multiple committees, and he seems to believe that Sands is well aware of the importance of football to the university.
President Sands is well aware of the importance of our football team and has been on record supporting fundraising initiatives in the Athletic Department like the big $400+ million campaign that is ongoing. I have heard it directly from him in an official capacity during a meeting of the Faculty Senate, on which I sit as a Senator.
And the only complaint about football so far registered by faculty (at least via the Senate) is that the university waited too long to tell us we had to cancel classes for the Thursday WVU game. We supported the move but they knew months in advance of the game but didn't tell us anything until days before when we had already set class schedules, exams, etc.
So I haven't even heard issues with the program from the rank and file among the faculty.
So I genuinely have no clue where this "academic doesn't like football/athletics" myth is coming from. I'm not seeing it.
As someone on the faculty during the hot years - and teaching in a non-STEM college - I heard it all the time. Torgersen was a fan. Charlie Steger (my former boss at one point) was not. I never sensed anything more enthusiastic about our prominence in football beyond the noteriety it gave us at conferences and an edge in getting top students that also cared about us "being a football school".
Realistically I don't ever see the institution ever having the level of enthusiasm the fan base does, and I don't see them being able to bridge the perceived financial gap. There's a silver lining to that though - our fan base doesn't have the mob power that some big booster programs have like LSU, Bama, etc. Folks in Tuscaloosa are already murmuring that it's time for Saban to retire because they lost a second game this year.
I miss the 10-2 days too. I wish my perfect season T wasn't so old. Not sure we can get back to that without financial support from a conference like the SEC (ask Vanderbuilt about that), but we can and will be better than this.
well that's depressing
What can the 'institution' (I assume this means 'university leadership') do to bridge the financial gap between the SEC/B10 and the ACC (that they are not already doing)? They can't get a new TV deal for the ACC. They can't bring us to the SEC when we don't have an offer (much less a way to break the GoR).
They've given Whit the power to fundraise and give us a top 4 payroll in the conference. They've given the football team the on-campus real estate to build new buildings (football player only dorms, indoor practice facility, etc). Most players who want to come to VT are able to academically qualify.
What are you expecting from the 'institution' that they are not doing?
See this isn't based on facts. We're paying Pry very well (especially for a first time HC). We had the money to really make an impact with his coaching staff (word is they had money to be 2-3 in ACC). Yet Pry chose not to...that's not on Whit or the school. Plus the school has made a major commitment to football (and created a major fund specifically for football).
...and reminded me below...we paid $9M for Fuente to not be our coach anymore. If you're not committed to football, you let him stay and ride out the contract.
If Whit felt he had zero input into who Pry hired as coordinators he is a complete failure of an AD.
I refuse to believe Whit wasn't consulted and didn't have veto power.
Whit is on record at Fu's dismissal press conference last fall saying he "does not handcuff his coaches" and "as long as they pass the background check, his HCs can hire whoever they want." Go listen.
Just another reason why I think we need a football GM to handle football. Whit allows the HC total unchecked control, and we end up with six years of Fu cratering the program and Pry hiring a largely Busch league staff of buddies.
It's really working out for him then.
No coach is going to take a job where the AD has veto power over their hire right off the bat. Huge red flag for coaching candidates.
Pry isn't Nick Saban. He doesn't have a staff of his own already. He's a first time head coach. It's not unreasonable for the AD to have more power in this situation.
There are tons of stories of HCs being fired because they didn't want to fire one of their staff, and that's just the cases we hear about. AD intervention happens all the time across the sport. That's their job. Steer the program for better or for worse.
Yes, it is.
Edit - to be clear - I'm not suggesting that I feel that Pry is entitled to something - I'm just saying that no agent is going to let their client take a job where the AD is going to say who they can/can't hire on day 1 (extenuating circumstance - Freeze, Briles, etc - withstanding).
This situation is completely different from what we're talking about - no coach is going to accept an open role knowing that the AD will evaluate the football acumen of every hire before it's made. It's completely different when the coach is sitting and the AD has all of the leverage.
I think it's a balance, usually depending on the cachet/negotiating power that a particular coach has. For instance, Fu or Pry coming in probably couldn't dictate terms as heavily as a Saban/Meyer/etc type coming into most jobs. Fu seemed to make comments when he was hired about really wanting to work with Whit, which makes me think, combined with statements Whit has made, he has a very hands off management style with his HCs and basically gives them carte blanche when it comes to hiring their staff. I don't think Fu or Pry could have gotten that at many other places given their experience level, maybe Fu a little more than Pry having some HC experience.
Now the Saban's of the world have far more bargaining power. They can walk away from jobs that don't give them terms they want. Any AD in their right mind would allow them broad discretion. But it's not uncommon at all for lesser experienced coaches to have more conditions and the like from the AD.
Again, we didn't hire nick Saban. The leverage we had was that Pry is getting his first shot at being head whistle at a P5 school and tripling his salary. That's a lot imo.
We are conservatively at least the 30-40th best job in the country in a cutthroat industry where everyone's career goal is to be the head coach.
And I would wager that Pry (who had been very picky about HC gigs) would have walked away. As would have almost any other head coach, except for someone who is desperate. No one in the industry is going to sign up for that.
What HC opportunities has Pry turned down? Buffalo, Louisiana Lafayette, and Georgia Southern? Those are certainly a step down the food chain from a top 10 teams coordinator. The fact that he turned those down and took on our dumpster fire speaks for itself.
Huh?
He turned down lesser programs who are successful at their level, but he accepted our job knowing our severe struggles. This is evidence of our job being desirable and thus we have leverage.
So how many wins would Fu have us at right now? *ducks*
More than we currently have. I'd say 5-6
And just exactly how would Fuente have managed these extra wins with Corn as his OC and Burmeister as his QB? Keeping in mind that Burmeister was the lowest rated QB in all of FBS this season before switching to WR.
OL could block. Wouldn't have 10 false starts. BB probably would've run the ball 30 times a game...but won.
Your evidence for "we wouldnt be better with fuente" is a game that fuente didnt coach?
He also didn't coach the UVA game that we won to even get a bowl bid 🤷
Cornelson was still the OC for that game. We all know he wasn't getting fired if Fuente was still here so he would still be here.
Fuente didn't coach that game.
The question was how many games do you think Fu would win with this roster. My answer was based on my thoughts that he would have won more games (5-6). I don't think Fu is a better coach, that win total is acceptable or that he should not have been fired (in fact I think he should have been fired after that Duke disaster in 2019). But he did have a knack for scheming (smoke and mirrors) to a couple of wins we should not have.
I think we'd still be sitting at 2 wins, but maybe a different two.
The reason someone posted the bowl game is that it was basically the roster we would have had this year under Fuente, and Corn was still running the offense. So that's the closest we can get to "what if Fuente was still here in 2022?" I think the only difference in the bowl game had Fuente been there is that we might have had a better first drive or two, since he seemed to be the one to scheme those, and we always fell off a cliff after that.
Honestly, this season was going to be crap no matter how we slice it. Fuente was trending downward and everything would have caught up to him on the field if he were still around. The biggest difference is that the fans wouldn't have been around to see it because we would have checked out long ago.
I agree, and just to be a glutton for punishment, I went back and rewatched recently Whit's infamous 2020 presser and then last year when we let go of Fu finally years too late. Can anyone realistically listen and say it feels like we have someone who "gets" football running the ship? Poor body language, reading from a script at the podium, saying this was tough and hard on Fu when you're giving him nearly $9 mil to not work after torpedoing a once proud program? Give me a freaking break. I like Pry, but VT football is amateur hour.
Let Whit raise money and worry about sports other than football. It is very clear he cannot direct a successful football program.
If that's the case then why are we paying the 4th highest salary pool in the ACC to a bunch of inexperienced coaches at close to double their market value
Yeah, the outcome of this game and season has been very disappointing.
I have not seen enough from anyone on the VT staff to think that they are right for the job- but it's also not like we have any other choice than to see what happens over the next few years.
I realize that rebuilds take time (Mike Norvell at FSU took 4 years to dig out from the damage of the end of Jimbo and Taggert), but I hope we can have fans engaged long enough to get there, and that Pry can actually do it.
Just a few more painful Saturdays this season... but I am sure most have already moved on to basketball...
Saw this on the Twitter:
"Mike Elko took over a Duke team that was 0-8 in ACC play and lost by an average of 31 ppg. Now 4-2 this year, +10 ppg..... Pry is 1-6, -9 ppg. And VT is getting worse, every game."
But they have a better roster make up \s
another game with no catches for moss or jones...i just don't get it. are the injured?! where are they??
they 👏 ain't 👏 it 👏
Reading that, think it's inevitable that Bowen gets fired this winter.
Welp, probably someone should've told Brent it's going to be hard as hell to win with this roster, but you're making it infinitely harder hiring two green coordinators while you're learning the HC ropes as well. Could've seen this crap coming.
I wonder if he's just demoted to tight ends coach and
QuinnGlenn (thanks) or Rudolph get promoted. It's hard to see a wholesale change on offense happening after one year.If Pry wants this job to be successful, he doesn't wait to pull the plug on Bowen.
If he wants to be successful, he spends as much money as he can find to hire the best proven OC he can find.
Doubt that will happen. Bowen has a 3-year contract (so does Rudolf), so we would have to pay $1.6m to let him go. Plus and good OC is going to want to bring I him own guys/system, $$. This on top of paying Fu $9m to not coach. He's going to have to figure it out with the majority of the existing staff. Reshuffling or bringing in consultants/analysts.
If Bowen is the young up and comer Pry thinks, he clearly isn't ready yet. Get him a co-OC. Give him a chance to prove it next year and if he can't hack it then demote his ass and promote the other guy.
IMO, firing Bowen would hurt more than it helps. Firing first year coaches sends a message to prospective coaches we're looking to replace him with, and that message is "come to Virginia Tech! We have all the expectations of an SEC school without the resources or prestige of an SEC school. Better win right away!"
That's my prediction, FWIW. I think Pry reshuffles responsibilities in the off-season.
Had beers with a Wisconsin alum preseason- he told me Rudolph is absolutely despised in Madison. Given the huge drop off across the board on the OL (see PFF grades YOY) he can go with Bowen at end of year. Def not OC - that's why he is so hated in WI.
This kind of lines up with what a buddy of mine told me who is close to some folks around the Wisconsin program. Said they weren't very upset to see him go.
Who is Quinn? Did you mean Glenn?
Shawn Quinn? Linebackers coach?
I guess we could try to see how he'd call an offense. I don't see what it would hurt.
Oh yeah! That makes sense with his hc experience. Total brain fart 🤦♂️
My suggestion the next two games that honestly probably wouldn't be worse? Put in a custom playbook in NCAA Football and ask Corso. Odds of success are probably no better but no worse.
Wow.
Edit: deleted image that, it light of recent events is not appropriate.
This is as much an indictment on Pry as it is Bownen IMO. If Pry feels like this is something he needs to say at a post game press conference then he should have made an adjustment already.
This is such an AWFUL quote from a head coach.
Does Pry not realize he's a head coach and not a coordinator anymore?? You're responsible for the entire team now bud, not just one side of the ball!
Plus, this whole "we didn't get any help" mentality is such an awful thing to say for team morale, especially coming from the head coach. "We" should mean the entire team.
Beginning to think Pry just isn't ready for this job.
Exactly. You're the head coach...be it! If you want the OC to give more support to the DC...then make him...or take it away and give it to someone who will.
Yeah that's bad. It's almost like he forgot he is the head coach for a moment.
I would be kind of shocked if Bowen is fired. And if he is, who does Pry go after?
I think Pry made a big mistake by hiring an oc with no real experience. Maybe he's realized that. But this kind of quote is kind of savage. And not in a good way. It's possible that he meant we didn't get help from the refs? I thought I saw quite a lot of holding that wasn't called. Though, I think that's a stretch. It seems like a relatively direct indictment of Bowen and the offense. That's not a good look imo. But, he's absolutely right. Our offense can't hang on to the ball. We lost TOP 21-39. Almost 2:1. You can't win like that.
To be fair, his quote is inaccurate and portrays it poorly. He still indicates that the offense isn't performing but in no way did it sound like that quote reads (from a leadership perspective).
Zero penalties tho
Not sure if sarcastic or not 😊. But that is at least one tangible area of improvement. I'll give credit to pry for that. We likely have 2 more wins if they had gone with zero penalties in some other outings.
Just thought it was worth pointing out. If ten penalties must mean bad coaching, what does zero penalties mean?
This was a huge point of victory today. I was happy to see the boys locked in and focused, at least on that front. Definitely a result of coaching IMO. Unfortunately these little moments of victory are greatly overshadowed by the massive deficiencies of the program as a whole.
Can't false start if you don't have the ball
I was a Soph in '92, we were 2-8-1. You can't compare the two teams, we were competitive in nearly every game and we beat the hell out of JMU. Our schedule was much harder then. I don't even know what I am watching here anymore, this is the worst team we have ever put on the field.
I we played JMU next week I would be shocked if the line was anything less than JMU -50
Maybe but JMU was also highly overrated this season and yes I did see todays score. Still think they are OR. Only reason for that line would be how absolutely shit VT football is
I think this roster will look a lot different in 2023. If it doesn't, we might be in trouble.
Fix the trenches, fix the program. There. I said it.
Put guys up front who can push the other guys out of the way in both passing and running plays. On offense you will see fewer sacks and less pressure on, and therefore more confidence from, our QB - which will start the vicious cycle in which more of a threat in the passing game means more of a threat in the run game, and vice versa. On defense, put that in reverse, plus you'll see more fumbles and interceptions and flipping of the field. And of course, everybody's favorite - clock control.
Strength in the trenches is where it all begins. I'd like to think we currently have the coaches, but not the talent, for strong O- and D-lines. The moment we sign a class full of highly talented linemen will be the moment we truly turn it around.
How are we going to fix the trenches? We're not going to get 3-4 starting OLs or 2-3 starting DLs in the portal. We refuse to play our 2s or freshman on OL (to give them game experience).
Yes. Fix the trenches. Question is - how long will it take for pry to bring in and keep those linemen. Can he do it?
I feel like this isn't discussed enough. O Line especially needs to create holes, protect Wells, and not get pushed around by a defensive line. That's one of my biggest hopes for the offseason. An improved OLine to me would help the "skill players" make skill plays.
The only silver lining I could find in today's game is that with a 2-10 season, Pry has set the bar so low that beating a FCS team and a couple random wins will be an improvement next year.
And please don't let anyone on the roster, certainly Holloway, burn a redshirt for this dumpster fire. We've seen enough bad coaching without adding that.
If Pry wants to win, he needs to go out and find the coaches to win the offense side of the game. What we have now is not going to win, even with better players.
Irony: I just got my Brent Pry bobble head from after the BC game....feels like so long ago lol
I just received mine today as well
Pry is talking the talk but not walking the walk. If anything it appears execution has regressed as the season has continued. Rather than player development and improvement, they seem to be going backwards. But I must admit, with everything on ESPN3 I haven't watched many games.
He can get away with it this season as expectations were low. I am surprised how much goodwill he continues to get. Looks like an extended honeymoon to me. Probably because he has a likable personality. But this ship is going to turn and turn hard if this does not improve. Year one you can blame the past. But if this bumbling continues next year watch out.
It's about adjustments. We haven't made any. To the personnel. In-game situational. Playcalling. And of course, coaching. If he wants to win he's got to adjust. I don't know if that means firing people or bringing in mentors. But the in-season adjustments have not occurred.
I don't understand the conservative approach, playing not to lose Fuente style. we're 2-8, fuck it go for it on every 4th and short in our territory, take a shot backed up in our end zone(ok at the very least attempt a fucking pass), literally what have we got to lose? absolutely nothing. I don't get why King didn't have more snaps today, try someone else at QB, play the younger receivers more, give the freshman OL/DL some playing time, it literally can't get worse.
Help us Jerry Kill!!!! You can't possibly be happier at New Mexico State, could you?
We didn't listen to him the first time. What makes you think he'd be willing to come and get ignored again?
It's a completely different coaching staff?
Anybody shitting on the staff needs to take a step back ask how the administration allowed this situation to happen in first place. If pry isn't it, then Whit isn't it.
I'm not sure Pry's seat will start to get warm until year 3. But imo, if he makes no staff changes he could cut his own rope a lot shorter. I know we're short on talent, but this offense is unsalted mashed potatoes bland. White people taco night bland. It's Vanilla with a capital V. Sometimes I can't believe it's not Brad Cornelsen in a Tyler Bowen prosthetic suit up in the booth. Are we just incapable of having a modern, innovative, exciting offense, and a capable offensive mind at OC? Is the OC position just cursed at Tech?
At this point it feels like nearly 20 straight years of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, almost solely on account of having milquetoast, "meh" offensive strategy and playcalling. We've fielded some of the best defenses in CFB history in that time, but to no greater avail without offenses that can match. Is it THAT much to ask?
It's time to come to Jesus, Pry. Either get someone in place who knows what they are doing on the offensive side of the ball, or go the way of your predecessor.
My taco night is fantastic.
To be fair, I'd argue that Cornelsen's offense did look modern and exciting, at least in 2016 when the team was using the entire playbook and scoring a shitload of points...once they stopped trusting the players and our choices for passing plays were limited to sideline fades and throws behind the line of scrimmage, it went downhill.
Just in case anyone was curious, Coach Pry currently owns the longest losing streak in 70 years (at VT of course).
Yep. If we go 2-10 will be worst season win percentage since 1950. 1991 we only won 2 but lost 8 and actually tied a game
Oof
What's the joke here? Not a big social media guy
You don't have to be a social media person to know what's going on with Twitter, right? I've never used the site in my life, but it's not a social media story.
It's like one of the biggest stories in the world this week other than the election.
Long story short, we just got clowned hard by Duke twice in one day. Or someone paying to be Duke football...who knows
I know exactly what's going on with Twitter and I still don't get the joke. If the joke is referencing being verified by "twitter blue," twitter blue is much closer to UNC blue or turquoise than Dook. That's all I can gather from it.
Basically, the joke is we had to pay the $8 fee to be a verified account because we haven't been able to get it on merit
Given that everyone has to pay $8 for the stupid verification, it's pretty much the dumbest attempt at a joke of all time.
Mainly people complaining about they have to suck dick now instead of their dick getting sucked on Twitter.
I find it hilarious about the people complaining about it, too many of them wanted their dick sucked and now they are getting what they want on sucking dick.
Did you think about this comment even a little bit before you wrote it?
Very good analogy, spot on...
/Sure!
Dicks being dicks because Twitter is dicks. Thank you for simplifying the dicks of Twitter. Lol I don't do social media so I wasn't aware of the amount floating out there in the twitterverse.
swing and a miss boss
I vaguely know the story, not well enough to get the joke though.
That link proves Twitter is trash.
Expected poop. Got poop.
Previously mentioned, but we didn't have any penalties today.
Jim Mora jr, first year coach at UConn, just upset Liberty to get his 6th win and become bowl eligible.
And they"ll kick our asses next week!
Pros- better fundamentally on turnovers, penalties and no special teams blunders
Cons- Got our asses flat out handed to us
Tough to see reason for optimism.
Fuck it. We're a wrestlingBBSB school now!
Everybody acting shocked that we aren't a good team this week and that a 6-3 team beat a 2-7 team
I don't think people are shocked that a 2-7 team lost to a 6-3. I think people are shocked (and disappointed) that VT is the 2-7 team and Duke is the 6-3 team.
Correct!
You think that's what people are "shocked" about?
I don't think a single person is surprised that we lost today. That's the issue...
I mean, the amount of comments I've seen online as well as heard in real life this past week and today about how "VT should NEVER lose to Duke in football" (which even makes sense to me if we're talking on a purely financial basis considering how much more money we put into it, but that's not what most of them are saying) would lead me to believe that people prefer to stick to their own personal feelings about a school's ability in sports that they formed in the past rather than acknowledging that teams can get better/worse and surpass other teams in any given season. It's like how the sportswriter Bill Brill despised the decision to allow VT into the ACC (and made that known in numerous articles and interviews), and if he were alive today would likely have gone apeshit at the fact that we won the ACC tournament in bball last year because his mindset was always "VT is not supposed to win in the ACC, and if they do it's a fluke that better schools allowed them to do so." No room for growth as a team or a school, you just make your opinion and stick to it for 20+ years.
So yeah, some people are legitimately shocked that we'd lose to Duke in football in any year, even if it's a year when they've been playing great ball and we've been a dumpster fire at best.
I mean, we shouldn't ever lose to Duke in football. But I'm not shocked that we did.
This was the first time since joining the ACC that we've lost in Durham. Not losing to Duke in football should be a given.
The fact that it's not and they have a better team than us is just another sign that things are out of whack. The CFB world's been mostly out of whack going on a decade now far as I'm concerned...
According to some old Duke guys I chatted with in the parking lot, it was the first time we've lost in Durham since 1981. Hokiesports confirms that. (Although to be fair, there was only one other game in Durham between that and joining the ACC.)
It's that other than UNC, we've been competitive in every game but somehow find ways to screw it up, whether it be from a tired defense, horrible play calling, poor QB/WR/OL play, bad time management, and oh yeah...penalties.
This is a bad team folks.
I don't feel confident that this group of coaches will right the ship. Our defense has been serviceable. Not great, but good enough to win some games if they get any help. The offense has been about as bad as I have ever seen.
I know our talent situation is really bad. Fuente definitely screwed us. But by week 10 we should be able to score more than 7 points against Duke. There is no development. There is no confidence. And today, I saw no fire. This team is playing like a team that has nothing to play for and that is extremely disheartening.
I don't know if Pry can turn things around. I knew this year was going to be rough, but I had hoped to at least see some progress. I hoped that by November we could score more than once against a middle-of-the-pack acc team.
In my book, Pry gets a mulligan. My pitchfork will stay in the barn until the end of next year. But I am not optimistic that these coaches will have this team playing much better next year. I'm mentally preparing myself for at least a couple decades of really bad football.
Here's the sad truth about Virginia Tech right now. We are a very bad program, our talent level is God awful, our recruiting is terrible and the current staff hasn't shown they are capable of turning it around, we are barely competitive in any game we play, Old Dominion beat us, Liberty will beat us next week, and we are incompetent enough to find a way to lose to UVa.
At this point, our best years are behind us. We will never get back to where we were. We will never again be a program of national prominence. We are going to have a hard enough time getting back to being a program that qualifies for a bowl in most years let alone contending for any kind of conference title. And with the way that the ACC is scheduling starting next year we probably are 10 years away from being hopeful of a title game entry.
We are probably the worst P5 program right now, and one of the 5 worst in the entire Bowl Subdivision. We aren't going to turn this around while any current student is at Tech. And after a season like this year, it feels like our timeline is even further away than the most pessimistic take in the preseason.
There is very little enjoyment to be had watching VT football right now. And at this point I find myself questioning why I still care anymore. And I'm finding more and more that I just don't.
This is chicken little nonsense. I don't know that it warrants a DV but this reeks of drunken pessimism. You should probably not drink and tkp anymore tonight.
Or, it's a fan acknowledging that we are in the middle of a generationally bad football team, coaching staff and overall program that has not shown any ability to move this thing in the right direction.
My kid has been vomiting the 2 days now with a 102 degree fever which caused us to let our 4 tickets today go to waste. I haven't had a drop to drink since I went to the hockey game Thurs night.
I'm just calling it like I see it right now.
I think Alum07's post is fairly accurate. I wouldn't say I don't care anymore but I know this program is a train wreck and I just don't devote time to watching as much of the games. The main benefit is I have hunted my nuts off this fall
Downvote me all you want but I hate being good at basketball and other sports. I wish we did the Clemson model 7-10 years ago and went all in with football and then let the other sports catch up
Need a neck brace for the whiplash on this u-turn? It went from a smug "i told you we'd be bad but nobody is listening" to "our program is worse than vandy and indiana" in a matter of like 3 weeks. Spare us the dramatics, let alone the nonsense
We wanted to see some kind of improvement over the year. The players might not be good but there needed to be something to show that some kind of progress can be made. The losses might have come but at least show we are getting better through coaching.
Instead, I'm not seeing any improvement. Our offense at best seems to be spinning tires, but in reality, they've managed to regress from where they were the first few weeks. Defensively, they've gotten marginally better, but our depth is bad.
I was willing to preach patience early in the year when it really was too early to make any determinations, but it's been 9 games with this team. At this point we should have SOMETHING that works. 2 weeks of 3 score collapses in the 4th quarter followed by getting pasted by Duke isn't good. Our offensive game plan, outside of a YOLO deep route on the 2nd play of the game, was atrocious. And it's been like this all year. When we need to move the ball, we don't know how. When we need to churn clock to give our paper thin defense a rest, we don't know how. We can't sustain drives. It's one of the worst offenses I've ever seen deployed in D1 football. We don't have anything to fall back on. We have nothing to ground our rebuild other than praying players who we have yet to recruit will save us in future years.
Ten games in, and I feel like I'm watching a massive rebuild job being undertaken by a staff largely trying to learn on the fly and figure it out as they go. Normally when you have this situation, you try to bring in some experts. Somehow we ended up with a staff that was just as green and inexperienced if not moreso in some spots. And paying them more to boot.
As someone said on another board I believe, we already had the dumpster and the fuel, and unfortunately Pry showed up in year 1 with a match.
Further, telling that Burnop has made comments the last few Tech Talk Lives reassuring Pry he was still behind him and most people he talks to still believe in him. The noise is already getting to the top. That quote you shared from Pry about the defense "we" not getting any help from the O, still sounds like a DC talking. He's responsible for the whole team now, can't be saying us vs them defense and offense. Any optimism I had has faded significantly.
Only P5 Northwestern and Colorado have a worse record than us. Including G5, you can add USF, Akron, and UMass.
Massey has us #103 and Congrove has us #118.
The offense is obviously bad but it at least has the excuse of no talent. The defense causes me to scratch my head a lot. We may not have studs but we have serviceable players on D. Yes we are getting worn down in the 2nd half but that doesn't have anything to do with busted or irresponsibly soft coverages. We have given up more 3rd and +15s than I can ever remember. 3rd and 20 and duke throws a 5 yard pass to the flat and we don't make contact until the duke player has run another 10 yards. We have sat back in soft zones all year and given up play after play on third or fourth long. When our secondary does cover, the line loses all responsibility and gives up huge lanes for qb scrambles. There is nothing to do but suck it up and hope Pry improves as much as the roster.
Also mentioned this in the game thread but what we did on ST today was criminal. Putting in a kicker who has a max range of 45 according to the announcers for a 49 yard FG into the wind? Not kicking the 35 yard FG to start the 4th and make it a 1 score game? Have we ruined the confidence of 2 kickers and a punter in 1 season?
And when we did make contact it was charmin soft tackling...and the kid nearly got a first down.
We have zero pass rush. From the little of the game I was able to stream, their right tackle was physically abusing our rush end
So he did address going for a TD on 4th down instead of taking the points. Basically he said that we are a 2-7 team and that we need TDs not FGs. We need to be aggressive and score more points.
I appreciate that sentiment, however the broader game management doesn't support that approach to the game.
In this thread: someone saying we should not be so conservative on offense and should go for it on 4th downs more bc we suck all year and what do we have to lose, and someone else saying we should be less aggressive and consider the game state
Cognitive dissonance in the fanbase has never been higher lol
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that the gameplan is just as wishywashy as the fan base. We are ultra conservative at times then aggressive at other times. It is an inconsistent approach.
Cognitive dissonance is a great way to describe at least half of this thread
Not sure if this was a jab at my comment, but if if was you completely missed what I was saying...
I think that was the point of the game where I leaned over to my buddy and said that the message boards would be bitching with any decision that Pry made in that moment.
You mean like 3 straight run plays after the Delane INT? Yep that's aggressive playcalling to me... /s
I think the key comment was that we are still teaching football 101. Players in the third and fourth year should be more advanced than that. A damning indictment of Fuente. Maybe also an indication that many of our players cannot grow above that level.
It's a regression, rather than a lack of development. I honestly think it's more damning of the current staff than Fuente's
I miss when our biggest concern was whether or not Pry has a hog...
Lmao. Hog to pitchforks in 11 months. Welcome to VT football.
Fake it until you make it! 🤷🏻♂️🤣
Blah blah blah. It's Pry's first year. We're bad.
I said I expected bowl eligibility this year and ten wins next year. I'm content to let it be postponed for a year.
IMHO, if I were the head coach, taking the first year to evaluate your players and your staff is a reasonable approach. Fuente stuck with what he was given and won early then lost later. Pry is losing early and - hopefully - will win later.
I don't love watching us right now but I'm fine for this year. Let's see what next year brings.
Oh and also don't lose to any more VA teams.
We are as bad as the Sudbury Bulldogs in the first episode of Shoresy. Feels like we just got goosed 5-0 for the 20th loss of the campaign. Thus, obligatory
Maybe I am in the minority, but these results on the field (talent, record, roster, etc) doesn't surprise me.... I am not sure why do many people are shocked by our record/on field performance. Sure we expected a better than 2-8 record and this year has sucked to endure, but we are essentially the same team (if not worse) than the team that was on the field against Maryland in bowl game last year, outside of a couple of transfers.
We got clowned by Maryland because of roster mismanagement, bad coaching, and lack of talent. We have kids playing that shouldn't be playing yet or shouldn't be playing at all but no one is better than them on the roster at this moment. IMO bad talent hinders coaching, more than good talent masking coaching
Don't get me wrong though, Pry doesn't get a pass, as he constructed this coaching staff, but this is the perfect storm. As I said before, players are playing because its the best we got, so this is basically a try out for next year. Same should apply to coaches. We will probably see a massive amount of incoming/outgoing transfers as Pry will say they aren't fit for D-1 football, and probably see some shuffling among the coaching staff.
I know we live in a "what have you done for me lately" world (which kinda sucks), but I still with Pry as this is only year 1. IMO every coach needs at least 3 years to get in some of his players. I am done with Bowen though. That is a failed experiment and is way over his head. Relationships/Friendships be damned, he needs to be gone yesterday.
We all expected VT to be better than 2 wins; that's why people are upset. Yes, it's irractional, but as Chris explained here, had there been lucky plays that won us the GT and NC State games, the team would be just as bad, but because we had twice as many wins, the fanbase would (again, irrationally) more optimistic.
Anyways, I didn't think we'd be this bad. As French said in his film review:
The coaches clearly don't think the younger players are even capable of becoming game ready. I knew the talent was bad, but I didn't think it was this bad. I didn't think it was 2 win bad.
I'm open to the idea that Bowen doesn't have the personnel to run his system. This roster needs to be turned over. We need to replace at minimum 40% of scholarship players this offseason. If we can do well in the portal, I'm okay with Bowen getting another year.
BUT, Pry's criticism of Bowen after the game was pretty candid. Makes you wonder if he's reconsidering the offensive staff:
Also, seeing the way Bitter is framing it up over at The Athletic... idk makes me think that he knows something that we don't yet, and he's foreshadowing. He was really slow to suggest the idea of staff changes at any point during the Fuente era, but isn't exactly shutting it down these days. Maybe that's just his take on Pry vs Fuente, or maybe I'm reading into too much, but we'll know more in 2-3 weeks.
yea I should have noted that we all expected more than 2 wins based on (weak) schedule, but wins and losses never tell the whole story. I think I predicted 4-8 or 5-7 at best... but from what we've seen even after being 2-1, I couldn't see another win, as we barely beat a Fordham team and beat a bad BC team, and ODU, well you know the story.
I guess my point was, based on who was on the field against MD (after opt outs and transfers), the on the field performance is what I expected for most part.
While one could make the personnel argument with Bowen, there's still a lot that he could be doing even with the players he has now. You don't need your hand-picked 4 star recruit to be able to recognize the proper time to run or pass the ball.
I'm not going to say that Bowen is calling a perfect game (far from it), but we don't have the talent to run the ball against middle of the road ACC teams. There was probably one quarter this year when our line performed (GT Q4) and actually consistently gave our backs holes to run through. If you can't depend on the line to do that against mediocre competition, it makes play calling incredibly hard.
We don't need 4-star recruits on the line (though it would be nice), we need players who can execute the basics of Rudolph's blocking scheme. We don't have that.
Honestly, the situation we're in is not dissimilar from FSU 4 years ago.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm not a huge fan of Bowen either. I too was/am skeptical of the hire (to much inexperience at the coordinator level). But IF (and it's a big IF) Pry & Co can overhaul the roster this offseason, then I would be okay with Bowen getting another shot (assuming Pry thinks that's our best course of action).
I would argue the opposite. Rudolph's scheme relies on OL that are bigger stronger and faster to the point of attack with a very direct drive blocking scheme. I know OL is the hardest to project out of high school but the lineman who have the feet, hips, and hands to excel in that scheme tend to be 4/5* and some absolute unicorn 3* with development
Rudolph either needs to adjust his scheme or burn the recruiting trail to the ground
Can you elaborate on this? I'm pretty ignorant about OL play and would like to learn more.
Also - does our OL need to be 'bigger stronger and faster' than your typical ACC front 7s (a relatively low bar), or do they need to be 'bigger stronger and faster' than your typical OL recruit?
I'm not super in touch with Rudolph's scheme, but you beat people two ways.
1) be a better athlete and either overpower them or be quicker than them.
2) Out scheme then to create confusion, create favorable matchups, make defenders commit when's there's an option, etc.
It sounds like Valley is saying Rudolph's scheme is very direct hat-on-hat so we are more reliant on out-athleting the defensive line. Which would imply needing better players.
This is a good exchange.
I think what falls into the first bucket (more than the second) is technique. Someone bigger and faster can be out-techniqued by someone who is either more skilled or more drilled. Right now we have players who are neither, also aren't necessarily bigger or faster, and also aren't being schemed into success, ostensibly because it doesn't align with the vision and plan moving forward
Yea, this is what I was getting at - is the blocking scheme require someone who is 350+ lbs with fast feet and hands, or does can it be effective with someone who is 290 with fast feet?
yeah, i think it's just plain useful to call out the difference between "scheme" which is more "where on the field does the play need to go" and "technique" which is more "how does he get to that point and what does he do once he's there".
A good explanation can be found here but for a quick example, if you're a RT and the play is off your outside hip:
Zone blocking will have you taking the nearest or easiest defender in your zone and having the RB make a read. If a DT is lined up head up or inside this is simple and you block down, if you have a linebacker or DE outside he then becomes someone else assignment
In a drive blocking scheme the inside guy is of course blocked down, heads up is tried blocking down, and outside shades you try and get around and hinge. Specifically the outside shades or whenever your first step is not directly at the defender you have to be either faster and beat him to his spot or stronger and move him from his spot.
TLDR if your OL can't dominate the point of attack the RB will just run into defenders in the backfield all day long, sound familiar?
Okay, if I'm understanding correctly...
And it's tough to find players who are athletic enough to play in a drive/man scheme?
FWIW I never played in a zone scheme so my description is going to be eh
In zone, you are responsible for an "area" you see how the defense lines up and you play reactionary after the snap (I think). I'm actually not sure how zone runs are called in so someone else can help here.
In drive, the play is called to run off your hip "off-tackle" and you have your man and your job is to drive him in the opposite direction as the gap that was called. So if he lines up inside (shaded towards the center) you automatically have leverage and you simply drive down, head up ( directly mirroring you) you don't have leverage but you can still drive down, outside shade (between you and TE or open green grass) you need to get outside of the defender and drive down which is the particularly hardest block to make IMO
OL out of HS are generally and I mean generally one of two things: Huge and slow, recruited on size and expected to refine technique down their careers, or undersized and hoped to pack on a lot of strength in a collegiate program. It's why almost no OL play early.
Yes. You either need to find guys who have that naturally ability to be 6'6" 350lb with soft feet and quick hands (4/5*) or chase the build and pray to God you can develop it. Which plays into what I've said before, this team doesn't get better until the line does, we aren't pulling God's gift to offensive linemen any time soon so we have to get frames and develop. Unfortunately in college football that takes 2-3 years
This. 5 could/should take 5+ OL from the portal so that the young guys can develop.
Linemen take the longest to develop by a wide margin. It's the one position group where you really can't afford to rely on high school recruits if you don't have the horses on the current roster
I don't know if you did this on purpose but this is a brilliant new word. Mix of Irrational and Reactionary. I love it.
Was not on purpose at all. Should have been 'Irrational'
who could have guessed that a first time HC with a first time DC and a first time OC* would be bad? I am not shocked by the record.
What does concern me, though, is that we haven't seemed to do anything but regress over the course of the season. I went into this season with low expectations. I didn't want to put a number to the W column because I could have seen anything from 2-10 to 10-2. To me, one year does not tell the whole story (just look at Fuente's year one). But I DID hope that we would look better in November than we would look in September. And to my untrained eye, that is absolutely NOT the case. I think we look worse now than we did in September. Particularly offensively. And that is my main concern.
I'm still riding with Pry for a couple years because I think we won't really know whether or not he can get things right for a couple years. I've said multiple times that it'll take 3 years to get a good idea of whether he can get us headed in the right direction. Year 1 sets the bar pretty low. Let's see how the next two years go. But given the lack of progress across the season, I'm not terribly optimistic.
*technically, I don't think this is his first time as OC but I do think it's his first time as OC for a P5 program.
IMO this is due to depth as well as coaching. Our starting running backs can't stay healthy. Our line isn't developing - this is absolutely in part due to coaching, but we're also playing the same 5-6 guys every snap - that's not normal.
TLDR - coaches aren't getting every last drop out of these players, but feels like the fruit is mostly juiced at this point.
Yeah, as French alluded to and BStreet touched upon, we keep playing the same personnel over and over to no avail. I'm not sure what the downside at this point is to giving some younger players some snaps. It can't get much worse and we need to build for the future. Worried about the culture with a bad losing situation as they also alluded to.
I think it's pretty clear that the 'younger players' who haven't gotten snaps will never get snaps, because they're not good enough. As French said:
Think about that... the younger players are not even capable of becoming game ready. That's where the roster is at. The younger guys are that far behind our contributors.
My guess is that those younger guys won't be a part of our future, which is another reason why they're not getting (m)any snaps.
We are ranked 106 out of 131 in the Athletic rankings, and on offense we are 120th out of 131 teams. I know if I was Tyler Bowen I would be expecting my pink slip based on that kind of abysmal results. And Brent Pry needs to do something about it aside from some comments here and there or the rest of the goodwill he started with is going up in a sudden blaze. This just isn't acceptable and something besdies the same old failures every Saturday needs to be done ASAP.
The issues are so deep they can't be corrected in a week or 2. Do the best we can in the next week or two (knowing that it won't be much) then focus on rebuilding the roster.
Thank the Lord we have BB Wrestling and SB / BB in the spring!
We are the only FBS (not just P5) team to not have scored 30 points this season.
yeah, offense is absolutely our big weakness. No doubt about that. It has been for decades. Not sure it was fair to expect some rookie to come in and fix things right away. Our offense is never going to be top40, so we should just get used to that. But we do need to get it out of the basement. I think VT's ceiling is top10 defense, top60 offense and with a weak schedule and a little luck getting to 10+ wins and a nice bowl game.
Just heard that on the Tech Sideline pod this am...I laughed at how embarrassing that is.
Pry is going to HAVE to be aggressive this off-season, whether it's by staff changes, portal pickups or recruiting in general. Another year like this he may not make it to year three. I think he knows this, which is what has lead to some of his comments recently. What matters though is what he's going to do about it.
The games that we came close to 30:
VT vs BC - 3 offensive TDs, 2 FGs, 27 points
VT vs Woff - 3 offensive TDs, 2 FGs, 27 points
VT vs Pitt - Punt Blocked for TD (2 pt cnv failed), 3 offensive TDs (1 pat failed), 2 FGs, 29 points
VT vs GT - Punt return for TD, Pick 6, 2 offensive TDs (1 PAT failed), 27 points
27 offensive points vs two of the worst teams in the country (BC, Wofford)
23 offensive points vs Pitt
13 offensive points vs GT
Yeah...Will (TSL) also said if we were average/midpoint scoring offense that would be 29 ppg and we would have 7 wins.
Yeah I mean it doesn't quite work like that. If our offense was better we'd score more points against lesser teams which would bring our average up but it wouldn't mean that we would score 29 in every game. With a better offense we probably win against odu and gt for sure. Maybe nc state. I think it's unlikely we'd have 7 wins by improving our ppg by 10 points per game (from 19 to 29). I think if Bowen was comparable to Marve/Pry our offense would be in the 80s or 90s instead of the 110s and we probably have 2 or 3 more wins. Talent is still an issue. It's just not the only issue. I'm not convinced that our offensive coaches are any good. Our defense has been serviceable. Offense is worst I've ever seen.
hey cmon now, be fair. we scored 29 and that's almost 30
Even Iowa has broken 30? Man that's a bummer
33 against Northwestern on Halloween weekend.
Its pretty fair to say that this team is short on talent and depth at multiple positions but I would consider this a team-wide problem, not simply an Offensive one. Yet the Team Stats show a picture of an average-ish Defense with an abhorrent Offense:
Comparibles for the Defense:
-Total D: (61/131)
-Rushing D: (51/131)
-Pass Yd Allowed (83/131)
-Scoring D: (54/131)
So, while I understand that "roster turnover" is clearly needed, I have very little confidence that simply putting new personnel in front of the current Offensive Staff is going to change things significantly.
The numbers suggest that one side of the ball (Defense) has done a reasonable job of putting together a respectable yet unspectacular Unit--a reasonable expectation given huge holes at CB, uneven LB play and a DL that has clearly not enough depth and gets worn down in 4th Q.
Offensively, we are among the worst teams in nearly every major category. We are not less talented than 115 other DI schools. We are doing less with what we have. We are doing less than Brad Cornelson did. And we will continue to do less with whatever talent we can accrue in the Offseason. There need to be Staff changes and Bowen cannot be a Playcaller going forward if we want to be better.
I think this summarizes things fairly well. We have a top-flight, proven DC (as HC) who has managed to get our defense to top 50% of defenses nationally. On the other side of the ball, we have a green AF, inexperienced OC with a hodge-podge staff which has gotten similarly talented players to bottom 10% of offenses nationally.
Coaching makes a big difference. The talent across offense and defense is arguably similar. The results are vastly different. Bowen and his staff are not coaching anywhere near the level that Pry/Marve have accomplished on defense. If our offensive coaches were half way as competent as our defensive coaches, and our offense was bottom 30% instead of bottom 10% we probably have 4 or 5 wins right now instead of just 2.
I don't much care for using TOP as much of an indicator for whether a team should win or lose. But I do think it paints a pretty clear picture that our offense is horrendous and our defense is unfairly stressed.
VT's TOP vs Opponents
35:55 vs ODU
32:31 vs BC
34:58 vs Woff
21:16 vs WVU
31:43 vs UNC
27:29 vs Pitt
28:48 vs Miami
23:56 vs NCST
26:48 vs GT
21:01 vs Duke
We started off alright, being in plus territory, time-wise, in 4 of our first 5 games. But we've really fallen off later in the season being in minus territory in all of our last 5 games. Duke held the ball for twice as long as we did. I'm not saying you can't win if you don't win the TOP battle (look at UNC vs us) but it is considerably more difficult to win when you don't possess the ball longer than your opponent. Especially if you're not particularly explosive on offense.
Having such a big, losing, discrepancy in time means that your offense isn't on the field creating opportunities to score. It means your defense is on the field working even harder to prevent your opponent from scoring. It puts more strain on the defense because they have to work harder and longer. If the offense isn't good enough to hang on to the ball, you're going to struggle to win games. The only reason you can get away with having a lower TOP and still win is if your offense is just so explosive that it scores really quickly on a most of their possessions. We're obviously not built for that.
I disagree with this... If you want to talk pure talent ratings, there's eight 4-stars on defense, and 1 on offense. If you want to look at depth, we're rotating in way more players on defense than offense. Finally, there's a not-insignificant amount of contributors on defense who were recruited for Foster's scheme (which is similar to Pry's); It appears that we're attempting to implement something completely different on offense (though it can be argued that we don't actually know what the offensive identity is).
I think I agree with this. I don't think it's a playcalling issue, I think it's more of a scheme/personnel fit issue on offense. Which is why I would be okay with Bowen coming back next year if the roster if overhauled. But I wouldn't hate it if he left.
Edit: switched 2 words
I'm in agreement re: Bowen. I'm not a fan of his. I also realize that he came into a buzz-saw kind of situation so I'm good with giving him another year. But if our offense is still only able to score 7 points against mid-tier ACC teams in November next year, he's gotta go. If, after this season, he's fired (I doubt this very much) or re-assigned (unlikely, but more likely than being fired, IMO) I'm not going to feel bad about it. I thought he was a risky hire from the get-go. It was always going to go one of two ways. He was going to be some savant who would magically turn our offense into a top50 unit through incredible coaching or he was going to flounder just like you'd expect someone with no experience as an OC at the P5 level would flounder at a program with a dearth of talent and no previous offensive identity. I'm not at all shocked we got the latter, even if I had been hoping for the former.
I'm very 'meh' on Bowen. He deserves more time (because, who wouldn't in this situation!) but the early evidence isn't looking great for him. I'd love to see him really turnover the roster and get some guys who fit into what he wants to do offensively and field an offense that is at least in the top80 in year 2. I want our offense to develop an identity and show some measurable progress on the field. At the current moment, we don't have any of that. But if he can start to show signs that he's taking this in the right direction I'll feel better about it. If our offense ranks higher than 100 in more than 2 offensive categories by the end of next year I don't see how he could be retained and fans expect the team to improve.
Bowen is on $850k/3yr contract so I would be surprised if he was cut loose as doubt VT Athletics is interested in $1.7mil on top of all else.
But 10 games in, the results aren't good. BC dropped 31 on Duke to our 7.
The bigger issue to me is...what do we want to do????
Early in the year, we were 2 TE and a cloud of dust (the dust was mostly our OL being runover)...now we are more zone-run and QB draw...which has been slightly more effective but the Pass Blocking has gone to crap.
You can't bring in personnel to fit your system if you don't have one and Bowen hasn't presented anything that looks like a cohesive scheme. We don't have 3 years for him to find one--guys (both HS recruits and Portal) want to come to a situation where they can make an immediate impact, not to an experiment. Jadan Blue is case in point a guy who was extremely productive has been little more than an afterthought here. Guys are going to look at that and stay far away.
Edit: Jadan, not Japan Blue stupid autocorrect
Overall, I agree with the sentiment. The offense absolutely should be better than it is, and I do think that the coaching staff is responsible for the underperformance.
However, I won't shed a tear if the offensive staff is revamped this offseason, but I'm not going to get the pitchforks out if they get one more year on the offensive side of the ball to show some improvement. Although the defense is not loaded with a bunch of sure NFL draft picks, (though I'm optimistic for Delane's future), it's at least filled with a bunch of guys who have played meaningful snaps for us before. We've been running out some combination Dax, Tisdale, Connor, and Chatman for what feels like a million years.
On offense ... Malachi Thomas played well towards the end of last season and has been injured all year. Keshawn King was mostly relegated to the doghouse under Fuente but has been one of our best players this year. Kaleb Smith had 37 career catches coming into this season, and he's supposedly head and shoulders above the rest of our receivers? He's performed admirably, but he's not a WR1 for an ACC team that's serious about contending in the conference.
The offensive staff should be better than they've been, period. I don't think it's fair to compare them to the defensive staff as a side by side comparison, though. As rough as the defensive staff's personnel situation is, the offense's situation is even worse.
EDIT: punctuation left room to be desired.