As of now, non-TKPC users do not have the ability to read comments, post comments, or start new threads. From a personal standpoint, this is not what I want TKP to be. As I said before, my personal preference is to keep the community aspects of the site open for all. However, I can't run a business on personal preferences. And I figured this was the best way to get everyone's attention who might not have seen (or even possibly ignored) the "Meta: Business as Usual" thread.
Please do me a favor and read that, then think about how much you used the site today ... last week. How long you have used the site for. Its value to you and others, and whether or not you would pay for these features if these changes were the new norm. If you would, then perhaps you are a person who should join TKPC. If enough of that happens, then there won't be a need for these changes to be permanent.
Comments
So we finally got our secret direct messaging to other TKPC members.
Joe I know this isn't where you wanted to take the site. But thank you for 11 years of being here.
Joe thanks for all you've done for VT and building/maintaining this site. I know you held out as long as you could.
Excited to see others finally get on board and everyone else can go deal with FanSided etc.
Hey Joe man, my renewal is coming up but I do have a new card. Is there somewhere I can update it or can you send me a link?
This also for me. We changed bank's completely.
Ugh we were talking about it a few months ago but it's such a hassle lol
First we closed our US bank my wife had started as a teenager in Iowa since there are no branches in Florida (or SC but we didn't go back to Midwest then). Then we had Vystar down here and wife had fraud 6 times in 12 months once 2 days after getting a new card and bank blamed us. So we joined Navy Federal Credit Union. We did it over 6 weeks to cafch reoccurring charges etc
NFCU is excellent, been a member there since 1986. Highly recommended.
Customer service is top notch, I've been a member my whole life. My gripes are:
No HYSA
Credit Card benefits are meh
Good mortgage rates but they're *SLOW* and if you need a fast close you may be SOL
https://www.thekeyplay.com/admin/config/people/the_key_players_club/manage
I include it in the upcoming renewal emails too.
Not even read comments? Don't you want them to see what they're missing?
I agree that part seems a little extreme but this way Joe's also capturing the large number of lurkers with no accounts. It's the "Find Out" stage of TKP and tbh, Joe gave us an extremely long "fuck around" period.
It either works or kills the site. Don't see much in between.
It might kill the site. But I'm curious, why do you think it will kill the site?
Well, I don't think it would be any one particular thing. But rather a combination of things.
First, a lot of us pay for the community. Honestly, I rarely read the articles in their entirety. I appreciate the content they provide. But, I'm more here for the interaction that happens as a result of an initial post. They certainly serve to steer the conversation. That is definitely appreciated.
Not everyone in the community is a financial contributor, they they are contributors to what I pay for. If the community dwindles, does the interest in being involved dwindle? Does the interest in paying for it dwindle? I'm assuming all these are probably true, and that it snowballs.
Another part is that some people are hard headed. I've always blamed being a hillbilly for my tendencies. Maybe that's valid. Maybe it isn't. I literally pushed away a girl I was interested in because she tried to force me to make things official. I didn't like how she did it and basically walked away... from someone I was very interested in.
As an architect, I will absolutely not specify someone's product if they force me to give them my information for their newsletter, or make an account with their site. I don't care if it's the best product out there. I won't do it, simply because they force me to. Some of us are just obstinate.
I like the site. I pay for it because I want to support it. I view it as an underdog in the grand scheme of vt fan sites. And vt fans should feel accustomed to supporting the underdog. I'll flatly say, I haven't always agreed with things you've done. But I'm still here. I haven't agreed with everything Virginia tech has done. But, I'm still a fan.
Some of the things you've done have worked. Some haven't. Maybe this one will. I'm willing to sit back and watch to find out.
I do know I've watched a lot of people offer to contribute more, or offer other ways to get subscribers, like monthly. Most of the time there was a response was that it's not reliable income. My feeling is that you can't budget based on income that isn't reliable. But why not take it as gravy on top?
How much does it cost to be a sponsor of the site? We have a few sponsors. But, I'm sure a lot of people might be more willing to throw out a sponsorship if there was something here that told them how. It doesn't have to say exact cost. But, at least something that says what you can get out of being a sponsor and how to do it.
I think you made some really good points. There's definitely a risk in the community dwindling. There are a lot of enjoyable posters that aren't TKPC members. However, I have to stack that up against other risks.
Honestly, a lot of your 'why isn't this other shit getting done' points are really because I'd rather spend my extra time playing with kids or doing something I'd enjoy.
I don't have a monthly payment plan because I haven't finished new code I've been working on. It's dogged work getting sponsors.
yeah, senjohn made a lot of really good points. and your reply is straightforward too.
it appears that you're finally at a point of having to reconcile the small business aspect of TKP with the hobby/passion project aspect of TKP. The back end needs updating like you've mentioned elsewhere, and to keep it going it comes with a significant time investment that is directly at odds with how you prefer to be spending your time. It's really hard to thread that needle. A physical sports bar can't afford to have everyone coming in to hang out and not be paying customers. Places charge covers for a reason.
You don't owe the community transparency in the finances and the goals, etc etc etc -- but a lot of times having a clear goal for funds, subscribers, etc helps people gauge how motivated they should be to help out or jump on board or sign up. Rhetorically -- how successful does this paywalling need to be vs "jingling the can" for it to be viable? In the previous meta thread, you suggested you needed an "overwhelming response" -- was that 50 new TKPC subs? 100? 500?
The point I agree with senjohn the most is that the paying subscribers have already shown that we're willing to subsidize the cost of operation etc to support the community and keep it afloat. multiple TKPC members over the years have indicated that we're willing to spend a little more, give a little more to 1) keep things running and 2) invest in the community. Is there a way to lean into that generosity in a way that doesn't immediately frame it as customers vs freeloaders (not your words). Does raising costs of membership renewal hit your goal? Could you entice lapsed members to rejoin with a small discount if they do it in the next week? Someone suggested a Patreon -- is there a world where you simply run a fundraiser to try and raise $X by Y date? There are multiple paying users who would like to help -- outside of reupping the $84 annually and commenting about how happy i am to do so, how can i actually help?
Using your sports bar analogy, I'd see a Patreon as a tip jar. I'd totally toss in money here and there. Especially when I'm drunk in a fam thread lol.
Reddit gold style tip jar? Give a golden turkey leg for a comment, for a few bucks. Or more expensive and send a comment plaid with one click.
(Grampa Simpson voice) Everything's going pay for plaid these days. Back in the Old Corps *rabble rabble* etc...
Conversely; I mainly paid for this site (and previously 247) just to read the comments. My main driving factor for paying was not the articles but to read the discussions happening underneath of the articles or regarding recruiting, rumors, etc..
TBH I will skip past articles sometimes and just read the discourse and rumors
This is 100% going to kill this site. You just took LancerHokie and how many others who positively contributed to this site out of here. I am not going to get multiple subscriptions for both of us in the same house. This leaves a real sour taste in my mouth and I and going to spend some time over the next few days thinking about whether or not I want to continue on here. If you made me chose now, I am going to bail.
I think LancerHokie is awesome.
I can understand why you feel this way, but also this is a choice you're making. There are at least two other households with multiple TKPC memberships (thanks y'all). Believe me, I thought about this, but I can't pick and chose exceptions. And honestly, I think if multiple people, in the same house, both use the site daily, then they should pay for it because they are both getting unique and independent value and experiences from it.
It might, and that is the risk I am taking. However, from my point of view the site would die if I didn't do this. I said in the previous thread I have a major technical initiative and platform work due ahead of January 2025. To be clear, TKP cannot run on its current stack after that date. I will no longer receive security updates and patches for the core code TKP is built on. That does kill the site. That's a fact. Whereas you have offered a strong opinion. My options are do all the work myself, or pay someone to do the work. Both of those require some combination of time and money. Either way, both of those have led me to the conclusion where I believe people using the site, should pay for it, because that is who the work is being done for. I jingled the can for three weeks and that barely moved the needle. I'm also tired of jingling the can and I had to make a business decision.
I ultimately hope both you and LancerHokie decide to stick around. (Well really, I hope enough people read my original message and decide to join TKPC so I can open things up again.) But if you decide to leave I understand and still think you're both solid Hokies.
You've been very up front about the costs you incur for this site for a very long time. Personally, I have thought you needed to do this for a while and it's a testament to your character that you didn't.
You have talked many times about your "vision" for the site but I have seen very little about what that actually means. It makes it hard to have confidence where this site is going. Right now I don't have the warm fuzzies that you are going to stick through with this site.
I think you have fallen into the trap a lot of small business owners get into when they turn their hobby into a business. You don't know how to make this thing run without you. I get that this transition to Drupal 7 to 9 is going to be very time consuming. I think you are trying to make enough money to bribe yourself to do the work. And I get it, that's how businesses work. But is the end game here? Do you want TKP to be your full time job? You want to sell it eventually?
If the Drupal 7 to 9 upgrade is that much effort, you could have open sourced it and I know some of the software developers like myself would have helped. The code base TKP runs on is not its special sauce. It's the community you have developed here and you just cut off a large chunk of that asset very abruptly yesterday.
IMHO, it wasn't abruptly. Joe has been "jingling the can" for awhile now, and the last Meta post was pretty clear if more people didn't jump on board, major changes were coming.
The sites value is more than the community imo. That being said, community is probably number 1. If the community doesn't want to support the site, then that's their choice, which will have consequences.
That's a thing I am working towards. I wear a lot of hats: editor, publisher, tech support, software engineer, and columnist. That's a lot of roles. I can't replace me because it's not financially or time feasible. Though I am working to make things run more efficiently and to remove myself more and more from the equation.
I said this when I decided to go paywall content, and ever since: I am running TKP like a business. That's my vision, to properly run a business. I don't want donations, I don't want to hold my hand out. I want to provide value in exchange for money, that's what businesses do.
I think it's very myopic to only attribute the secret sauce of the site to the community (and that's not downplaying its importance). I think the platform and published content also have helped make TKP what it is. And again for many, many years that came at no cost to folks interacting on the site. That's changed and I understand the backlash, people don't like change and don't want to pay for what they've gotten for free.
I didn't abruptly turn off access, I've had a thread going for a few weeks. Nine people jumped on that. Nine. That's a very low percentage of overall non-TKPC folks interacting with the site daily. The overwhelming majority of those folks ignored the thread, as they ignored other similar threads over the years.
I think a lot people who are not TKPC members could afford $84 / year and have chosen not to. * That's their choice. I don't begrudge them for that. Perhaps they get more value from a video game, a concert, etc. That's cool by me. I'm not here to tell people how to spend their money. All I can say is that if you want to use this site, as of right now it costs $84 / year to do so. And it is up to the consumer to make a decision. (And if the site dies, I'm OK with that consumer response.)
Moving forward in the short-term, I plan on publishing outstanding content this football season and making sure the site is firing on all cylinders. Then I need to figure out my D7 migration plan and have the site around for the next football seasons, and so on.
I'm not sure what else I can say. I appreciate your thoughts and feedback, but I agree to disagree with a lot of things.
(*I also think there are some people who might not be able to afford $84 / year. I tried solving for that, but I learned paywalls work and asking nicely doesn't. doesn't.)
I've seen you mention this a few times in the past on these threads, it rings a little weird to me, so I wanted to bring it up explicitly. The idea that having any income streams that aren't a strict subscription based model is somehow holding your hand out, or begging for money just doesn't seem current with the actual business that you're running. Content creation (for lack of a less annoying term) is a model that has run pretty heavily on voluntary donations of varying amounts for a while (NPR, various podcast networks), but especially with the proliferation of Patreon. I think seeing that as begging for money, given the type of business that this is, is a weird way to look at it. People throwing a few extra bucks in on a GIFtory thread is literally people paying directly for the content and work that you've put out there.
It would definitely make planning costs/revenues harder at first (irregular amounts, seasonal, all that fun stuff), but it seems like the kind of thing that after a year, you'd have a decent idea what kind of additional money that would bring in. I don't run a business, certainly not one like this, but it seems like being a little more open to something like that, especially when you have a customer base (and a community) willing to meet you somewhere in the middle, might open a few extra things up. If everyone paying $84 a year tossed in an extra $5 per GIFtory on (conservatively) 5 GIFtory's a year, that adds up. And if some people who can't/don't pay currently joined in, even better.
Not my site, not my business, but your unwillingness to engage in that conversation has always confused me a bit.
I agree with this. Patreon can be a pay what you want model, which tends to generate more revenue than a strict pricing structure according to a lot of studies. Millions of content creators are running their businesses based on that model.
It's not putting a hand out. It's providing a means for people to recognize the full value of the content and service you provide.
What about a family plan, where each additional account gets a discount of, say... $25?
I read about this in the last thread but wasn't sure what the plans are I'd be willing to donate some time to help build/upgrade the stack. I'm not an expert on forums but I've been in application development my whole career.
Shoot me an email if it's if interest.
I agree, there are a number of regular commenters who would get FOMO from missing discussions.
Would you get more FOMO from reading and not posting, or not seeing anything at all?
I wasn't really thinking FOMO, rather I needed a way to ensure everyone would see the message I put out there.
My logic here is how do you know what you're missing if you can't even see it? The non-paying commenters are more likely to become members than non-paying lurkers IMO.
I think the message could be clear by eliminating posting/commenting right before football season rather than eliminating everything. Either way I'll #respectyourdecision
We're not talking about people that come upon the site. We're talking about people who have been here for a while, not contributing. They know what they're (now) missing.
Valid point for sure
Are you going to carve out exceptions for a few people like Andy Bitter? I'd like to continue seeing his comments.
I doubt with his new job with TSL he will post.
I guess this kinda brings up whether Joe should ask Will to buy him out
Not just NO but HELL NO.
That site is trash.
The site is trash and many of the poster are trash as well (at least they were when I made the jump from there to here).
I like TSL, but it's different than TKP. The main board is a bit of a mess, but I like the more traditional media coverage (especially as the local papers have gutted their sports teams), and the more niche boards for WBB/MBB/Basebal etc I like a lot. But again, different product/different fan audience I think
The point of Will buying Joe out would be primarily to get the site infrastructure.
Then never using it because the old heads over there would whine so much about the change in layout and use.
This is true. They tried a threaded board a while back (a decade ago? it's been a while). It was superior to the old/current board style, but the poster base shouted it down. That's why I'm over here.
vBulletin, and that was around 10 years ago.
And yeah, that's the same reason I'm here as well. Will & Chris bent over backwards to cater to a user base that was old at the time, and hasn't really grown at all since.
I appreciate all the hard work and effort Joe, its really unfortunate that the business model you prefer and envision, one surrounding community and people chipping in for the greater good isn't working.
I hope this works. I love tkp so much.
Well at least now I know we won't end up on Message Board Geniuses
In all seriousness, I've been a TKPC member since the start, have no intention of giving that up and hopefully this spurs others to join as well.
Case in point.....
Does VTscoop have a weekly special on MBG? Wasn't it VTscoop with the poster that said a drunk Miami employee told them that OKST was joining the made up nuACC?
Yeah, it was also VTScoop that started the whole 'Pry has a hog' thing that got picked up on MBG
... I'm sorry, what
Oh, ok.
.... I've got even more questions now, but I'll stop here.
Putting it bluntly Joe, are we looking down the barrel of the end of TKP?
If you'd rather not answer that's fine, I just enjoy this site very much and want to brace myself if it's going to have to go under...
Can people still see the number of comments on a thread. You know that FOMO will take off when the recruiting thread has 30 new comments.
I just signed up. Thanks for providing such a great site
I logged out to see what the site looks like, it's pretty bare now in threads. IMO you need a banner where comments usually are or a link to join by the comments number at top. There is nothing on the page that drives people to know or join TKPC from each thread. This might also help drive that FOMO that was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Yeah make it painfully obvious that there is a whole section of the site that people are missing. Possibly even blur out the discussion for those who aren't subscribed. Let them know there is content there, they just have to contribute to partake.
I had the same thought. There are still links that show the number of comments for each article/thread: "(XX)" in the active discussions sidebar and "XX comments" under the thread titles. Instead of doing nothing, these links should redirect to the TKPC page. Or they could still link to a bunch of comment boxes that have their contents replaced with "Get access to comments by joining TKPC" with a link. I think that would be simpler than trying to blur the actual content.
Also, the bulleted list under the "Join the Key Players Club" should be updated to mention access to user comments/discussions.
I'm working on this. Great idea, thanks.
I shipped this update and I have been updating copy along the site to reflect the changes. If anyone hits anything weird, let me know.
I love that signatures can be seen still with this update. Really lets some of the community shine through to help promote people to join(hopefully).
I will use this opportunity to plug this as a good reason why I don't mind the price. It's the small things that make this place great. Joe cares and it shows. I also will say that a higher tier subscription or multiple tiers would probably be received pretty well around here, IMO. I'd move up to 120 bux a
monthyear if there was one. (10 bux a month for this site is a bargain these days).FTFY. Math, it'll get after ya.
Thanks.
man that gif hits home today. Got a half mile from home and blew a tire and the day's just gone downhill from there...
man, that kid took it like a CHAMP tho...
Joe don't hate me. Your footer is now incorrect, it takes more than just registering to participate.
Joe, I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm here until you turn the lights out on this place. I hope that isn't any time soon but I will always support the site and the value you provide for the cost of a TKPC membership is unparalleled. Do what you have to do. It makes me a little sad/nostalgic, but it is what it is and again, I support your decision.
I agree with what others have said - if possible, add a comment counter so people can see the site is alive and they're missing something good. That will compel people to join.
I can't believe this is even a discussion.....
Bringing up the fact that the site has the potential to die and people have the audacity to attribute it to Joe's unbelievably reasonable needs and his incredible patience? We are not ENTITLED to Joe's content for free. The honeymoon may be over. Pay the man what he deserves (actually, what he charges is probably far less than what he deserves)!
FFS....someone had to say it.
Say it louder for the people in the back.
They can't hear you because reading comments is turned off for nonTKPC members...
Get out of here with your logical and well thought out response
You know what comes next! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... MASS measured responses in recruiting threads!!!!!
Measured responses in recruiting threads?? Pft, next thing you'll be telling me UVA social media won't do something embarrassing.
Question: is anybody saying that? We're all members because we don't feel we're entitled to free content. My issue, and I think others from what I'm understanding, is is this the most effective tactic to save the site we love? I totally understand the reasoning, just unsure it will work the way it was executed. I know Joe put a lot of thought into it.
Yeah this!......I mean the guy has been working on the same piece of pizza for like 12 years! He must be starving!
Seriously, Joe- put your family and your sanity first. Everything else belongs in the back seat. Period.
I for sure would pay more if it helps to keep this site going.
I'm not an IT guy, but would it help if some folks who are, were willing to volunteer some time to help with the nuts and bolts of running a website? I'm sure there's users here who have the knowledge and willingness to contribute-
I don't get that last comment. "Pay the man what he deserves." All the people commenting here, and anyone who can read that comment are already paying what he asked for. I doubt any of us have enough disposable money to single handedly keep the site running (although if someone does, please do).
The concern is that moving more content behind a paywall cuts the size of the community, rather than encouraging enough new people to pay. We would all love more people to get fully dipped, but have little control over that. Worrying that this might be the end of the site isn't reticence from any of the people that can still comment to pay him, and it isn't thinking we are entitled to have the site continue either.
Heck worrying the site might die isn't even saying this is a move that shouldn't be made. More that this is a sign that Joe is looking at the legers and saying it isn't worth the effort.
Joe has the right to ask for as much as he wants to continue the great content he's been creating. He can move whatever he wants behind the paywall. He can stop creating content he created in the past, or add new content he's excited to create, or shut down the whole site if he doesn't want to do it anymore. No complaints there. I'm not suggesting he owes us anything.
But thinking this is simultaneously an indication that Joe doesn't think the site is worth it at the current compensation level, while not being the solution to drive up the compensation level doesn't mean he shouldn't be paid more.
I will happily eat crow if this does actually help.
Glad I took the plunge to fully dipped-ness a couple of years ago. Joe's been incredibly generous with his time and it's obvious he wouldn't have done this unless it was necessary. The membership fee has been well worth it, and if it goes up, it's not surprising, and would still be well worth the $. Assuming, of course that the increase isn't at confiscatory rates, and Joe isn't planning on a TKP corporate retreat to some exotic locale.
I, for one, am sick and tired of paying for Joe's boats and hoes lifestyle/ssss
$84 a year is incredibly reasonable for most of us. If anything, I'm surprised that hasn't gone up to a round number like $100 or even $120. Ten bucks a month, and I'd still feel like I was on the winning side of that deal. Probably not the move if you're dead set on increasing subscriptions, but I think a majority of us would happily subsidize the cost of keeping TKP open for all.
38 of the top 100 users in terms of legs aren't members. I would have expected that number to be way lower given how you'd expect the most active members to be the ones to subscribe first. I really hope that this helps because I understand for Joe that nearly 40% of your top commenters not being committed enough to pay makes it completely unsustainable. And as others have said, as great of a site this is and I'm sure Joe takes a lot of pride in it, he just can't maintain it financially or support the bandwidth out of the goodness of his heart.
I'm coming up on a decade on here. I know I'm not the most active poster, but I keep the tab open on my browser. I get most of my sports news from this site and then, generally, get valued discussions beneath it. The articles French and Brad and the other writers put out are seriously top notch. I had a brief break in my subscription with being laid off during Covid, but once I got a new job, emailing Joe to restart was something I was always looking forward to. I hope this makes people realize the value in this site and get more people committing. Recruiting, football season, basketball season, hell thanks to Primus I get a lot more expsoure and understanding of the wrestling team, those won't be the same if TKP goes down.
Can we divide their turkey legs between the rest of us?
38% of the top 100 don't subscribe... that's $3k/year... explains Joe's strategy for sure
I think many of them are no longer actively using the site. Some are to be sure, it some haven't posted in years.
Some of them are TKP writers too
TKP provides me with much more than $84 of entertainment. It helps me get through the work day which is worth it alone. Completely agree with this decision.
I have been a member for a couple of years. I don't post much but I read the articles and comments all the time. I do not know if it is feasible but how about having 2 subscription levels. For those that are not TKPC members, a basic subscription of $50/year and they can do all the things they have been doing, reading, posting, and commenting but not have access to certain articles. French's breakdowns for instance. And keep the $84/year rate for the TKPC membership. We would have all the access that we currently have. In fact, if it went from $84 to $100, I don't think you would lose many members. Just a thought.
As a long time lurker (since 2013) who got fully dipped 2 years ago, I think you need to offer a football season only product. I really enjoy the site and content, but don't post very often because the discussion can get harsh fast and who needs that. If you had offered a football season only sub for $59, I would have joined years before I did. If you are going to run it like business (and you should), you have to offer products for more than one type of customer (full year or nada).
We could even have fun with different tiers of access/features. Premium tier called Lunch Pail, next level Commonwealth Cup, basketball season sub of Mike Young's Popcorn Bowl...the possibilities are endless. It's definitely more work to set up and plan for in terms of finances but that might attract some people who want different things.
Premium All-sports plan: "Ut Prosium Alliance"
Football season plans:
1) view only "Enter Sandman Society"
2) +post "Lunch Pail League"
3) ++articles "Pry Consortium"
Joe ultimately has to decide how much complexity he wants to deal with on both the technical and financial aspects of the business. But offering the product people want to buy is the way to go. It eliminates the feeling of buying something you won't use 7 months of the year. I enjoy other Hokie sports but no where near as much as football. Family, life, running a business make it impossible to devote the time that I do to football to other sports. There will be a few TKPC members that buy down next time (to a football only) but I think the revenue growth from new subscriptions will offset that many times over.
Honestly this site has gotten me "following" more sports for VT. I like being able to quickly jump into the wrestling thread and understand more about the team when thr time and effort to track and watch are really tough.
I 100% would not have watched a Hokie Baseball, Softball, Men's/Women's soccer, or Women's Basketball game without the hype trains started in threads on this site in recent years. I'd have missed some of the pinnacles of Hokie sports without this community. Now it's appointment television when club lacrosse is playing.
This is not a solution, but a couple of years ago a few of us sponsored some non-TKP members who were contributors but unable to pay. It was done anonymously. Perhaps the "pay it forward" campaign could be resurrected.
Just a thought, every little bit helps, right?
Guys, this is on me. I finally got around to trying to update the glossary. I guess that was the last straw so Joe killed commenting so people couldn't send me update ideas. My bad.
Nah, I think Joe couldn't "take" the Mekhai White subthread. Y'all can blame me for that one.
I can take some of the blame for that, too. ;^)
#KG2VT
I had no idea this was even happening and decided to join just a few days ago because I was a long time user, but have usually always been tight on money and always had this mental aversion to subscribing to a lot of "unnecessary" monthly expenses.
Been settling into a new financial situation which allows me to loosen up and I randomly compared a TKP membership to being the same as buying a new video game once a year which made the plunge justifiable.
Glad I didn't miss being able to read and post comments; my work days would be much more drab. The lack of ads and "n" scrolling are worth it when checking in on new comments and hawking then right away.
Only recommendation I have is if we could upload direct photos or gifs in addition to uploading via web links. Mainly because I hate having to create, upload to Imgur, then link from there.
I don't think Joe has a can big enough to shake for image hosting on the internet.
I feel like discussing the size of Joe's cans starts to border on CG violations.
We talking about the size of Joe's hog?
so what I'm hearing is that TKP is pivoting to an OnlyFans model for funding?
The more you pay the more clothes that get put on?
I was wondering what the business model might be.
Every time someone accidentally lets their subscription lapse
that was my idea 💡
As I said, keep Fench clothed, subscribe or get the middle linebacker up in sack city. It's a money maker for sure.
We should also nix any idea of a TKP contributor calender ... ::::shudders::::
People are always going to take all the free they can get until the free is all gone. It's just how things work. This was inevitable.
Ah... This is why I couldn't see comments and shit the other day when I was at work.
I can never remember my login password, so i usually just endure the ads and browse the site as a non card carrying member.
Not sure I really like the decision - as it'll cut down on the community size and interaction, but I certainly understand it Joe.
Looks like I re-upped at just the right moment.
Just checked the site logged out.
Every comment says
Simple, repetitive and to the point. I like it. Only minor suggestion I would make is to somehow direct people to this post in case it slips down the tracker so they know why the change happened. Not sure the cleanest way to do that.
Can it just be made a staff topic on the main page?
How many TKPC memberships did this move generate so far?
Also curious to know the answer to this. Hopefully dozens
I suspect, in the doldrums of the off season as we are now, the move generated little momentum. But come September, I'd hope lots of folks jump on board
This will probably be an unpopular opinion, so let me start out by saying I know we aren't entitled to anything, and I don't expect anyone to provide content for free. Obviously I'm a paying member, so I think the content is worth it.
I just want to go over the things that initially endeared me to the site as an undergraduate with little to no disposable income.
1) Analysis. This was the first thing to move behind the paywall, and makes a ton of sense. To my knowledge it is the most time intensive thing, and very much feels like the premium product of the website.
2) Insider recruiting information. This largely exists as wink nod comments made randomly on the recruiting thread, but makes me feel excited about the future of VT sports.
3) Participation in community threads. FAM thread immediately after victory. Giftory. Love it. With the comments gone, the Giftory gifs are still visible, but the fam thread is now just the word FAM.
I love this site, and I want people to be compensated for their work, but my question is this: If I were joining the site now, how would I even know what I'm being asked to pay for? I can see community created threads, but none of the comments. Many of those threads are links to a single tweet, or a youtube video. Some of them just introduce a topic Some of them amalgamate some articles from other sources, and give recap. I can't see at the moment if any of the stat roundup type threads are open to the community.
I think this community is great, but if I wasn't already a part, can I still see enough that I want to be?
Joe, what about something like a 30-day free trial to give new user a chance to explore and use the site to decide if they want to join in?
This sounds like an excellent way to reach undergrads and newlygrads with an opportunity to try the site.
Or like free first week or two of the season every year. That way you can make sure there's some analysis content included with the period where you get to experience the real deal.
Not that that's better than a 30-day trial. Just figure spit balling more ideas can't hurt.
This is probably a ton of work as I'm not sure how you would go about doing it but could you provide maybe a half priced subscription to current tech students?
This is a very important comment right here. I was just thinking a very similar thought and then bumbed into your comment.
So, going forward is TKPC only. That's great. Wholeheartedly understand and I'll continue paying until the lights go out. But.... How do we get new members if they can't see anything?
I do like some of the suggestions that have been thrown around about 'free trials', making some types of threads free to all, a 'student discount', 'varying membership tiers', football season pass, or as some have suggested, some type of patreon model or open up a donation for GIFtories (I know Joe has vehemently opposed to this, but I still think it's a good model and also agree that in this day and age, it ought to be considered and it's not "begging" by any means).
Others with programming/coding experience have volunteered to help. I really hope Joe has taken them up on their offer and reached out to them. If people can help the site by contributing as writers, then why can't some folks help the site by helping to improve the interface?.
The thought that the website has to die if we don't get enough TKPC members without even investigating other avenues of revenue and support doesn't make sense to me. Unless of course Joe is just tired of running the site. Then bury me with TKP because I can't look at TSL. It makes me want to barf.
I gotcha, but my point is that I dont see how you get new members the way it's currently set up. Not sure it's sustainable.
It just struck me that this would be a hell of a time to do a kickass AMA. Quick, someone get Emma Watson's agent on the line!
One suggestion, and maybe this is already happening, but I figure I would pass along.
Had a couple buddies reach out to me yesterday wondering what was going on with the site. Joe, you might want to make your comments about the technical and financial reasons you needed to do this viewable to the public just so they know why everything was put under a subscription, at least for the sake of transparency. From what I was told, they weren't able to see that reasoning, but completely understood the need when I passed it along.
Maybe in some kind of 'Why did this need to be done?' link for people who aren't TKPC members so they can learn more.
I wouldn't mind donating money to pay for a few people's subscriptions. I'm also a dev (although no Drupal experience) and wouldn't mind volunteering some hours to get stuff off your plate.
I love the content and community. Way better than what I had experienced on a few other fan sites.
I hate that it's come to this, but it wasn't without warning. DCIMSA and myself are one of those households that each pay for a subscription, because we each get value from the site in our own way. And also because let's face it, we may never have met without this website, so we're in it for however long you want to keep the lights on. If/when you're ready to shut her down, we'll respect that, too.
Now shut up and take my money, because I'm due for renewal next month.
And I would never have gotten the honor of officiating the only TKP wedding.
I love the site and am glad to be a member. Any thought to make it so off topic threads are able to be seen and commented on by all? I totally understand regardless, but making threads like that available to all could be a good way for anybody to see what the community is like and interact with others. I understand making threads relating to VT sports be visible only to members, but off topic stuff and being able to interact with everyone on the site is fun.
Look at the constant refrain here: the value of the site is in the community. The sports content is great, but the real meat to the site is the people that post here. Making off topic stuff free to view would be giving away the best part of the site.
I think some (new accounts especially) are probably somewhat more inclined to become members if they can see any aspect of the community. If they have any interaction at all with people and know what the community is like I think they're more likely to spend the money and join so they can see quality articles behind a paywall and interact with others they're already talking with in VT related threads. All may not have the same view as I do, but I know that consistently active OT threads are one of the great parts of TKP and when more are able to discuss random stuff it makes the site better. Again, I don't think all threads should be open to everyone but I don't really think there's harm in opening up off topic threads to all. Might be a little difficult to figure that out behind the scenes, but if it's simple enough I think it's worthwhile.
From the data I have, I agree with Little Bobby Tables. I have thought about making the off-topic thread readable for non-TKPC members, but they can't comment. I think this would provide more exposure to see what the community is all about. There's been a steady trickle of new TKPC signups every day, more than in the 2-3 weeks prior when I had to ask and bug people to "do the right thing" and sign up. They paywall really is undefeated, sad but true. I am hopeful those new members do not simply lurk and begin interacting with the community.
I honestly was burnt on TKPing after covering the Fuente-era, but my goal is to add more value to the community moving forward. I hope others decide to do the same.
It is/isn't truly astonishing to me that only a single active poster decided to get fully dipped after these changes went into effect. It took me a while to reach this conclusion, but some people simply don't want to pay for things on the internet, even if they can afford it. But that's their choice.
So you're meaning allowing non-members to see comments but not interact, correct? I think that's a great option that would show new folks what they're missing and remind the ones who have just been here without making the plunge remember what they're missing.
First, thanks for the site.
Second, for some of us, just lurking is enjoyable. We can be just as introverted online as we are in person. Just listening to the conversation and rarely chiming in is who we are. Rest asured, even though I rarely comment, I enjoy the site and reading the threads.
Third, like others have said, if the price went up a little I would still stick around. I don't know if you need 5% more income a year or 50% more, but a 10% price increase would almost certainly help.
So make actual sports articles free to the public, but paywall the the threads where we talk about mayonnaise.
It's been a busy few days and I am past the point where I am going to blow this thread up with replies. I appreciate all of the feedback, support and patronage. Thanks all.
No, Joe. Thank YOU! We wouldn't have this place without you. None of this community that we all care about exists without your vision and hard work. I have nothing but gratitude and admiration for you. Thank you for trying so hard to keep this thing going!
Nothing but love for the product you've created.
A few of y'all suggested a free trial and there's been a longstanding suggestion of monthly subscriptions. I have had a code update in the works that I am going to push to wrap up before the season that will support monthly plans, different price points, and perhaps free trials (I need to investigate that).
This is an iterative process, so thanks y'all for sticking with me.
I totally read this in Squirrelly Dan's voice.
I may not agree with every decision you've made, but I'll always appreciate the community you've made and really respect that you at least listen to feedback at a minimum.
My membership renews on 9/3 and would definitely give the monthly plan a go if you need a guinea pig
I will let you know if I have it ready to roll by then, but don't set your watch to it.
New member dipped. Am I doing this right?
Only if you are FULLY dipped.
Would you say he is 800% dipped?
FULL dipped. I will die on this hill god damn it
I legged this, but it went from +24 to +26, so I reset my vote to get it back to +25. Here's a leg (or two) in recompense.
Work computer blocking gifs will get after ya...
Just don't accidently dip yourself in Scot Loeffler's juice.
Don't forget the dork magic
Also, Half Baked is a phenomenal movie.
The only movie I saw visiting Blacksburg. SAMSON
Kind of random suggestion....
Any chance we can get ads removed form the login webpage? I mean...I'm only going there to login, so clearly I'm already a member. Maybe its my fat fingers, but on my mobile browser, I keep accidentally hitting ads....
Not a big deal or high priority, it would just be nice.
Hello everyone, I've been a long time lurker and the decision to block comments was the push I needed to join TKPC. I never saw enough value in the previously paywall blocked content enough to create an account. I find the value in the discourse the OPs create and the fun "sauces" that people may or may not have. I saw a mention of a tiered approach and that seems like a wonderful idea if there are others like me to provide different levels of exposure to the site for what each of us value individually. With all that said I hope the site has a long life ahead of it and go Hokies!
gooble gobble gooble gobble one of us one of us
We accept him one of us!
Hey Joe. Email me. Have something I want to propose for the season/year.
Hey Joe. We're 2.5 weeks into this experiment. Care to share your thoughts about the future of the site as we all settle down to watch our first CFB games this weekend?
Here is probably the biggest thing for the future of the site right now. Tiered or timed subscriptions to the site.
What do you want to know?
From your OP:
I took that to mean you were experimenting with locking the comments on a temporary basis and would form some conclusions. Have you formed any conclusions you'd like to share?
If comments will remain locked, any mechanisms for getting new users hooked on the community? Your pool of potential TKP members is mostly limited to current users who are already hooked on the community and don't want to lose that. Eventually this pool will shrink unless you can keep snagging new addicts through free samples.
Mostly just curious. I just renewed so I'm on board with whatever.
I'm keeping everything pay to play for now. There are 1000s of people who know what TKP is about, it's been around for a while. I want to see how things unfold during football season. However, an early conclusion is paywalls work. It's unfortunate, but is what it is.
I recognize and am aware of the need for a wide top of marketing funnel. I have some ideas cooking in my head. But I want to see how things play out.
This is the TSL model, where the free football board has posts from 4 days ago on the front page. Tells you how little traffic they get now. No chance that's profitable without the subscriber model.
I'm not a subscriber there, but I have to imagine their subscription boards get a decent amount of traffic.
The TSL Sub board generally has a day's worth of posts on page 1. The free boards get less traffic.
If it's an immediate cash flow need, specific to upgrades, would a multi year membership be an option to help with the startup cash?
I have full confidence in Joe, the TKP contributors, the members, the lurkers, etc., and enjoy it so much, that I would pay for another year right now.
Joe, if you make that an option, I will be the first to pony up.
So I was today year's old when I learned that when you click on the "(1)" that pops up next to "COMMENTS" it goes directly to "Unread Comment Replies." I've been clicking on "COMMENTS" then "Unread Comment Replies" like a boomer this whole time...
Can someone walk me through the function of the "#" and "slider" buttons following the name/post time? (I figured out the v/> collapses the thread below)
The hashtag redirects to a url specific to the comment, so it can be shared directly.
The slider grays everything out except the comment clicked on and it's parent comments, so you can see how the conversation went way off the rails.
Oh wow. I've been scrolling up holding a pen or my finger to the left edge to make sure I follow which comment they're responding to.
I would like to get fully dipped now. Oh wait.....
I did the same thing....
I can't tell you the number of threads I just gave up on before I figured this one out.
Oh wow, I had no idea either.
Fucking dying.
Yes, I realizing I'm necroing a thread from August (that's not too far back, is it?), but I just read an interesting article from MIT Technology Review on how to fix the internet, and TKP popped into my head at this paragraph:
and
It was a fascinating read, and gives a bit of hope for the future of the internet. But what it also does is give me a bit more appreciation for the site you made, Joe. Thank you for being ahead of the curve and creating a little slice of the internet that I enjoy visiting daily, one that I am happy (okay, maybe not happy, but willing?) to pay to experience.
Tend to agree with this, thanks for sharing. Looking forward to reading the full piece.
Somewhat related -
There's another fan site that I was visiting on the regular (MLB team fan site, not directly competing with TKP) with a similar model but way heavier on the adds, and different tiers for their paid subscriptions.
What sets TKP apart for me at the moment is that I have WAAAAAY more freedom to be colorful in my commentary, especially in the game threads, without fear of a perma-ban. I made a comment during a game thread a couple weeks ago that was a PG rated comment at worst and it nearly got me kicked out. I guess what I'm saying is that I really appreciate what has been cultivated here and having a place where I can be a bit more open about opinions and being able to vent frustration with the fear of the hammer coming down from the mods.
So to Joe and the mods - thank you!
Related to the somewhat related...
One of things I l like about this site is I can say something to the sub thread OP like "You're a good man for posting this article Little Booby Tales" and not be looking over my shoulder for the ban hammer. It's the inside jokes that keep me coming back.
So I take from this is Joe needs isn't behaving badly enough.
I mean I get what you're saying. And I love that you've said it. It's 100% accurate for where we are and (if I'm gauging senor tables' age and mine correctly) we've sort of lived through the beginning times of the web and it's only fairly recently that this negativity bias has proliferated. Likely due to a lack of true democracy in decision making but also to the article's point:eyeballs. It can be better. Type media is just not "human" unless you're actually a writer.
Gotta include me in that group also.
Got my first Finger and email account in 1978 from Johns Hopkins.
Humans are not used to communication without voice and visual cues on intent and sincerity.
Also, people believe they are annonynous and therefore free to be a vicious as they want to be without getting punched in the mouth.
Just had an idea for an awesome and highly illegal business offering: hunt down people who say asshole-ish things on the internet and punch them in the mouth. Go fund me coming soon
unemployment solved
I have a better idea in the works. Find where they work, walk in to the office in front of everyone and slap them upside the head with a dildo. Record for the world to see.
Patent/trademark pending.
While dropping printouts of their asshole-ish statements online. Gotta let the bystanders know why they're being slapped with a dildo!
I feel like if someone gets slapped in the head with a dildo, it's probably kind of obvious they deserved it.
Deserved? Obviously.
Why? Well that information sometimes needs to be supplied. 😉
Maybe because they asked to have one slapped upside their face?
Fair point!
That's the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory
I call that internet balls.
I appreciate it. And that was a solid read. "1,000 True Fans" (https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/) mentioned at the end of that article is something that inspired me when I read it way back when.
Been on the site at least once a day (as a Key Player) since 2015!