*** If you haven't watched this yet, please stop reading- don't want to spoil the plot for anyone. At any rate- So Manziel while at aTm:
- Had others take his drug tests for him
- Was paid 6, perhaps 7 figures in cash to sign autographs
- Played SEC games hungover- with the knowledge of his QB coach
- Was pulled out of classes because he was mobbed by other students
- Had his lackie lie to the NCAA about his family situation, and had his family cooberate the lie, resulting in a "half game" suspension.
- Had clear contact with NFL and entertainment agents.
- To my knowledge aTm did not receive any penalties for playing a non-student, drug test fraud, cash payment player.
Cheat openly, cheat often. Nobody cares. Nobody. Mike Young should do this 100%- sell recruits on cash payments, fake drug tests, agents, not actually being a student. Nobody cares. aTm signs a top 5 recruiting class every year.
Comments
Just watched it last night actually, came a way with mixed feelings - on the one hand, learning of the mental state he was in from college on through his time with the Browns, kinda feel bad for him...on the other hand, so many people would give anything to have the opportunities that he pissed away
Seems like he maybe has gotten his head on straight, for now anyways
Like maybe somebody named Vick?
*sigh*
I don't feel one bit sorry for him. Why? Because he frauded the NFL at the combine with a fake drug test/someone else's urine and lied about his grandfather being ill, so he wouldn't have to do more drug tests. He showed up high and drunk to the most important job interview someone can have - with the owner and GM of the Browns the day before the draft. It wasn't important enough for him to refrain from pounding tequila for 6-8 hours. DESPITE all of that, he hits the lottery- gets drafted in the first round. The slate is clean, and now he is expected to do what you and I are supposed to do. Show up to a professional job and perform. Do your job. Show up for work, put in an honest day's work. And he still couldn't do it. Didn't show up for practice, didn't study film, went to vegas 18 hours before kick off- in a business and league with grown men. Literally, you can't do that at McDonalds or any other business. This kid simply didn't want to work or do the basics of his job, so he got fired- like the rest of us would. No sympathy. He hit the lottery twice.
if he does have bi-polar disorder there's only so much that can be blamed on Manziel before you have to look at those around him, none of which did anything to help him and instead covered for him. If anything this documentary highlights the incredibly low moral bar held by Texas A&M and the Cleveland Browns.
The agent that presented a fake pee test at the NFL combine should be banned from being an NFL agent, if he isn't already. That is fraud. The NFL is a business- a big one. You can't fraud a drug test and be cool. He should be barred. Agree on that one. His 20 year old fall guy? meh, he is a punk like Manziel. Who didn't have bi polar when they were passing co-eds around.
I didnt get the takeaway that the sample itself was fake. I understood it that they worked really hard to purge his system and had the backup plan to fake a family situation to avoid taking it
Definitely lost respect for Kingsbury watching that. His parents and coaches failed him
No question, not to mentioned Kliffsbury was stoned AF when they filmed that. Low class
Yep - no one prepared him or supported him for celebrity.
I don't think anyone prepared him for high school...
You know in the past thirty years people have made a lot of excuses for people with mental disorders. In the generations before, the people learned work arounds, how to study in different ways, and to work around disorders. They became a functioning part of society (with some exceptions) without the excuses and drugs.
Johnny made the decisions, not his disorder.
I am NOT excusing Manziel at all. What I am saying is that he had a whole lot of enablers around him, and his advocates that should have his personal interests in mind (in particular his family) didn't do enough to step in when it became clear that Manziel was incapable of handling himself and needed outside assistance. He made the choices, but he also didn't have anyone telling him the choices he made were wrong.
Yep- If i took 30 K from a safe for autograph money and was suspended by my school for a half against a tomato can, I'd probably keep doing it
I agree that his disorder isn't nor should be a reason to excuse his shitshow behavior.
I see very little difference between Manziel and the murderer in
ArizonaTexas whose defense was his family's affluent lifestyle impaired his ability to know right from wrong. Then his mom helped him flee to Mexico.The worst part about both is how many victims (known, and unknown) exist because of the things they were allowed to get away with before consequences finally showed up.
I think you're talking about Ethan Couch, and it was also Texas, but yeah, that was the case where "affluenza" became an actual word. [rolls eyes]
Spoken like someone who has never been impacted by mental health or addiction issues -self or loved ones-
Consider yourself lucky, I guess.
I have been impacted by that, thanks. Manziel went to rehab, and didn't follow the program. That is not my fault, nor is it insensitive to call him out. They sent him to get help, and he felt he could blow it off. He had limitless options- return to rehab, seek additional help, use the NFL's resources, etc. He made a conscious choice not to do that. Yes, I know and am empathetic to addiction- its not easy. Most alcoholics I have encountered though, never exhibit his behavior- which in this film was classic binge drinking, partying. Most alcoholics who have been in a program, relapse out of depression or a trigger vs. Bottles of Congnac on private jets with strippers. That is a tell tale sign of someone that isn't interested in being sober. In terms of bi polar disorder, I am happy for him that he has a diagnosis they can treat and he is taking medication. I will note that had he been honest with aTm's medical staff, he would have been diagnosed much sooner.
He was diagnosed as Bipolar, so he might have limited capacity to make good decisions.
That doesn't mean he can't/shouldn't be held accountable for his behavior. Rather, it explains why he behaved that way.
He said himself in the film that " I thought about how bad an idea it was to go to vegas the day before a game" - but I said "fuck it". So this doesn't really jive.
Yeah, just sounds like really poor decision-making and maturity more than bi-polar disorder.
Watched it last night as well, my thoughts:
.
Over all, doc was a 5/10. Not that great.
His friend told a bold face lie to keep the illegal benefits and money train going and protect aTm on the field. aTm saw no penalties. Cheat and cheat often. Lie if you have to- life is about cocaine and taking advantage of drunk coeds of course. keep it going. VT should cheat openly too. I've said it.
I mean, I would argue that getting paid to sign autographs never should have been 'cheating' - and it no longer is.
Well sure. But regardless of NCAA amateurism rules and aTm football protocol, pulling 30 K out of a secret safe for autographs is in fact illegal if not reported to the IRS, which it wasn't. That's still illegal today, BTW. And regardless of how legal or ncaa rule violations etc, I know for a fact that the now allowable autograph business for football players is nil/peanuts - to the tune that most don't bother. What Manziel did was a racket/borderline money laundering and much more serious than "ncaa violation"- for the record.
If the NCAA has any kind of spine (which they probably don't), they need to re-open their investigation into the program. If what was covered in the documentary is true this would be severe enough for the SMU death penalty.
What would you want the ncaa to do? They don't have subpoena power, they've lost every notable lawsuit ever, and they are designed to be ineffective.
This is why you cheat big and in the open- like Sumlin in this case, Butch Jones, Jeremy Pruitt, Rick Pitino, Bill Self, Sean Miller, Rick Neuheisel, Larry Fedora, etc. Do it big- big. In the open. Often. I have no idea why you wouldn't.
Shut the football program down for 2 years - full stop, no players on scholarship, no staff, nothing. 2 year TV ban after resuming football. 4 year postseason ban after resumption. 50% reduction in scholarships. And, elimination of NIL benefits for all players attending A&M for 4 years after resuming football.
Stops whatever is going on momentum-wise with the program. Takes a chunk out of the SEC viewership. Eliminates post-season bowl funds. Hacks away their scholarship players, and eliminates (on the surface) the ability to recruit and/or supplement and athlete with supplemental NIL funds.
There is a smoking gun here. Kingsbury said on camera he knew about the autographs and knew that he wasn't a student.
So here's the thing you're missing... the NCAA is run by presidents of universities. 2 years without TAMU football takes TV inventory away from ESPN, creating contractual issues for SEC teams, and loses them money.
You think the presidents of Alabama, Florida, etc are going to okay with that?
The NCAA can only do something if it's member institutions give it the power to do so. It's member institutions don't want TAMU getting punished. Thus, the NCAA can't punish TAMU.
And if the ncaa were to do this anyway, they would get sued into oblivion, and likely lose.
I didn't mention it but I'm fully aware this would hit ESPN, hard. Enough to give them pause for meddling with the game, conference alignments, etc. A sanction like the one I laid out would send a clear message to universities, ADs, head coaches, boosters, players, media companies, and more that blatant disregard for rules will indeed result in direct and indirect punishment, even if you aren't directly involved.
Will it happen... probably not. I think with the remaining teeth the NCAA may actually have, the worst case A&M could possibly realize is vacating some of the wins from games Manziel played in, and maybe a minor reduction in scholarships for a couple years.
I disagree. I think the NCAA would get hammered with lawsuits, and it would lead to the courts classifying ncaa athletes as labor, thus destroying amateurism.
The ncaa just got skunked by the Supreme Court. Justice Kavanaugh's concurring opinion made it clear that the court is willing to hear more case around the ncaa, and signaled that the court is willing to do away with amatuerism.
The ncaa wants to avoid the courts at all costs (hence why they are lobbying congress for an anti trust exemption).
That's why they don't have the appetite for this.
agree, they dont have an appetite for it. So let me jump to some conclusions and fast-forward a decade or two. The only way this gets cleaned-up is when (not likely if) we arrive at 2 major super conferences in football with the SEC and Big 10. They excuse themselves from the NCAA and form a football-only league and merge - call it the National College Football League. That will come with all the trimmings - players union, salary guidelines, health insurance, a HS draft, and the league that handles the TV contracts... one contract for the Big10, and one for the SEC, and a free-for-all when it comes to post-season stuff, Thursday night football, etc.
This is what I hope will happen, except bring all of FBS, and have promotion/relegation.
Football is going to go back to the late 70's wild west days- where Oklahoma basically ran the sport. 110 scholarships, no NCAA, each conference has their own deals, etc.
Yeah the best you can do is make it better for the other institutions like SEC could redistribute revenue based on NCAA standings A&M gets caught means more money for Bama
NCAA and spine don't beling in the same sentence: PSU football still exists.
He's not the first to go wrong. He won't be the last. Art Schlichter couldn't get out of his own way. Vick had the dogs. In the case of Vick, he went for redemption, and then managed to make his career work. Not sure where Johnny goes from here.
As of the documentary, his sister reports "Johnny isn't doing anything right now". He literally lives with his parents doing nothing.
Vick had the talent and the determination strive to be the best coming out of college. After prison he still had the talent and determination to make another go. Johnny has never had that determination and I think only 80% of Vick's talent.
I remember seeing Vick interviews that he was not putting in the work before jail and that finally seeing consequences jolted him onto a different path. He talked about actually watching film and reading defenses after jail and he had some of his best seasons on the eagles.
I watched the documentary a couple days ago. There are those who say that power corrupts. I lean more to the notion that power reveals who you truly are. With that in mind - I think it shows that once Manziel got power, bolstered by a group of enablers, he revealed his true nature and the documentary shows that pretty clearly.
Just finished the doc myself. I think a lot of the big things have been touched on here, but one thing that always made Manziel's experience a little close to home is that I'm about two weeks older than him. Pretty easy for me to sympathize with a lot of things he went through, trying to put myself in his shoes, even though we are wildly different as people. He always felt like someone I knew very well given his similarities to a couple friends I had that were charismatic but couldn't get out of their own way... but he had the added element of a significant amount of money.
VT does not have this level of privilege with the NCAA we would become "an example".
Only because VT probably has no clue how to play big boy ball. Nick Saban uses Bama law students to look for loopholes in the NCAA and create ways to fire back at the NCAA if they came after them (it's backed by an actual legal team too).
Do you think VT has a legal team with a plan to remove NCAA oversight from sports? I highly doubt it.
Look at Hoffman's transfer, everyone else got free and clear, yet he had to sit out. OSU, UGA don't deal with that because they would go scorched earth on the NCAA.
Long time lurker, proud new account creator/TKPC member as of a few days ago...avoided this thread until I was able to watch the doc last night to get full context before checking in on DC's analysis.
I can empathize with Johnny Football to a degree given that we're roughly the same age, but I think two things can be true at the same time. He was an adult - a young one, but still an adult - that's accountable for his actions that led him to where he is, AND the people he surrounded himself with, including his coaches, absolutely enabled him and did nothing to intervene when they saw the train wreck picking up speed. They were wholeheartedly along for the ride to reap whatever benefits came with his transformation from obscurity to a household 'legend'. That doesn't take away from the fact that he's responsible for everything that occurred thereafter.
What an absolute whirlwind that whole fiasco was though. Dude was primarily responsible for a massive financial windfall for the university and did not respond well to it. College football is a helluva drug!
"Welcome welcome welcome!"
Did anyone notice the Logan Thomas cameo during the pre-draft workout scenes? I had to do a double take when I saw the VT logo.
yea same lol, I had to pause it and see that it was Logan. I guess they worked with the same QB coach? I remember that guy had pretty much every QB under him at one point