When taken into account the start and some of the failings, granted I was doing some other t things and missed parts and mostly the end for dinner but what I saw was a team that kept grinding did some thing successfully and maybe missed on some risks (specifically selling out and missing the read letting a large run td).
I think we need to start thinking about quarters rather than games. Might help all out mental health. Also scoring is important but kinda fickle so let's not worry about that so much till we learn how to walk
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I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion because of the current state, but I'm actually a bit encouraged. I think Pry has the right plan, I think the culture of the team is better, I think he's trying to reset the identity of the program to what it was in the 90s.
There's nothing from that stand point where I'm disappointed yet. At this point it's getting players that fit the identity he's trying to establish. We need to hit the portal and jucos hard for lineman
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I really think the offense took a step forward today. We outgained Rutgers we just couldn't capitalize and score a few times when we needed to, and gifted them a score on that botched handoff right at the beginning. But credit to Bowen, we adjusted. And I think we found the direction of our offense and the QB we need to build behind moving forward. Drones opened up the run and gave us many more dimensions on O. He just needs the reps and experience with his receivers. If he starts the rest of the way I guarantee he will be pretty dangerous by the end of the season.
Less encouraging however, our run D is horrendous, and the OL is just flat awful. Big test ahead of this staff if they can recruit and develop the OL and front 7 on D.
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I like Drones over Wells. The offense looked the most coherent it's looked since Pry took over today. I wish we could've seen this with Jennings and Lane.
Defense was downright dominant for stretches, but they got gashed too many times to keep the offense in it.
I think the offense played about 1.5 good quarters today. I think the defense played about 2.5 good quarters today. It'd be really cool if we could get 3 good quarters out of each one day - especially if they could overlap for those 3. That might let us hang on for the 4th quarter.
I still think we're heading in the right direction, just slowly. I'd take the 23 hokies in a head to head matchup over the 22 hokies. Maybe I'll take the 24 hokies over a couple other P5 teams.
We haven't beaten an OOC P5 opponent since Josh Jackson's first career start. Maybe one day in the next year or two we'll get there.
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Legit question - has it ever been not stressful as a tech fan? We had what, a 3-5 year stretch where we smashed lower level teams with ease, otherwise, even the 10 win seasons we often like pulling teeth. Anyone who sat through the 2008 Duke game in Blacksburg would have loved the offense we played today haha
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We only had three losses but they were to UVA, Syracuse, and fucking Temple. We also played a safety at QB to avoid burning Vick's redshirt (imagine if we had the rule where you could play in four games and keep your redshirt back then).
No offense to Nick Sorensen who took one for the team like a boss.
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Wasn't it that Temple loss in 1998 that begat Beamer's policy the next season to refer to each week's opponent in every practice only by number? Ostensibly to avoid looking past a team. That worked quite well too. Having MV7 behind center didn't hurt either.
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I can see us using Vick in the Temple and Syracuse games, as Clark wasn't healthy yet.
The problem become the Pitt, BC, UAB game where Clark was still hurt. At that point we have A.) Vick who would have 1 game under his belt, B.) Deep Ball Dave, or C.) Sorensen.
We did sweep those 3, but that would eliminate Vick from being able to play in the UVA game. I can't begin to imagine the pain of seeing Byron Thweatt running down the sideline, but instead of just being the "Oh shit, we might just lose this game" moment to "Oh fuck there goes our perfect season" moment, not to mention the Hoo gloating for the next year.
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In my 6 decades of Hokie football, going back to the 1968 Liberty Bowl loss to ol'Miss and Archie Manning, the last few years have been the least stressful. Probably due to performance generated low expectations from Fuentes and rebuild low expectations for Pry. The Winning culture creates that in-game tension we feel until the final score shows VT-W. Unfortunately I'm calm on Saturdays now.
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We played a ton of young guys on offense. At times we all of our skill players save Tuten were second or third string and still looked competitive. Remember Drones was doing this without Lane and Jennings.
Defense was seriously hit or miss. Once Stroman went out, we ran with Jones and Phillips at safety and it showed at times. LBs still in the wrong gaps too often. We gave up 45 yards passing. And lost by three scores. To Rutgers. Ugh.
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Dropped balls and questionable calls, and 1 that was just egregious. Those situations go our way and I truly believe we win that game. Drones is serviceable enough as a passer and big enough threat in the running game to be the starter moving forward to me.
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There was a holding call that while it was holding wouldn't have mattered cause Drones was far enough away and threw a 1st down pass. The next play was 3rd and ~19 and we threw a screen pass that our olinemen got in the way of.
There was also a roughing the passer call that wasn't egregious but questionable. Iflve seen that slide many times.
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For me the egregious were the misses. No late hit out of bounds on that 4th down attempt.
The no call for holding on Rutgers breakaway TD run. The defensive end got tackled allowing the back to go around the end.
You can see the start of the hold at about the 15 second mark here. It pans away but the end got picked up, thrown on the ground and then the guy laid down on him.
Alabama's offensive line is garbage. They've gone through 3 QBs already this season. And they've scored 10 points against USF.
What I mean to say is that for everyone who is dooming and glooming about where we are right now, even with a decade-long pipeline of 5 star recruits at virtually every position on offense, Alabama is struggling. Against USF.
I'm cool with what I saw today.
But we better beat Marshall.
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Can confirm. Was just at a Bama fans' house picking up our son- the dude is legit telling me how dogshit he thinks they are and he isn't convinced that Saban can do it anymore.... Like, what???
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I'm old enough to remember complaining about going to the Orange Bowl again instead of the Sugar Bowl because N'awlins was so much more fun. So I can relate to problems being relative to how good the team has been performing.
Now I'm just happy to not have a dozen false starts in a game.
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I remember Hokie fans complaining about Beamer touting our streak of 10-win seasons. They said winning 10 games a year isn't that big a deal and it made us look bush league for our coach to publicly praise the program for it. Ditto the bowl streak.
"You don't see [insert blue-blood program here] bragging about winning 10 games every year." The inferiority complex has always been strong.
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I mean, it was frustrating seeing us continue to win 10 wins per season, but (a) be incapable of taking the next step, and (b) losing on the national stage.
Now I'm just happy to not have a dozen false starts in a game.
Same, man. Reality check for real.
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The problem is this there no patience with current CFB...the playoff combined with realignment means there is no more room for slow growth anymore, it's a thing of the past. Stings even more when you see programs like Duke and Colorado, which have been worse programs but now are getting praise for their rapid progress.
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Fuente had (what we thought was) rapid progress, and he turned out a failure. Duke, Colorado, etc may also fail
Blueblood Nebraska is on the slow growth plan (Rhule has also done it at his last 2 college stops). Other teams - Illinois, Minnesotta, Arkansas, Baylor come to mind - have done 'slow growth' over the last 5 or so years.
But... The waiting is frustrating. Never ending realignment creates anxiety. I get it.
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Best part of the day! Great to meet both of you, the families and eat too many yummy sub sandwiches. Felt like I had eaten a walrus while walking over to the stadium.
I should have brought Frosty with me.
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1) Drones should start every game left this season. (And Wells should probably hit the portal at the end of the year).
2) Even so we still suck on offense, it's mostly on the O line but still somewhat on Tyler Bowen. We could've scored a couple more times today and had it close with better play call
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Yeah, this was the most creative and balanced offense we have seen in Pry's tenure. If we stick with Drones and build around him, giving him those first team reps instead of Wells, I think today showed the makings of what our offense could be.
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This offense looked like it needs some one like Drones running it. A couple healthy recievers (or at the very least sone cloud cover) and who knows what would have happened.
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I think what we saw today is a lot closer to what Bowen wants to run than what we've been doing. Smarter football minds than mine will explain it better, but I thought it looked pretty coherent from a play calling and flow perspective. If we can get to where we are consistently executing what Bowen is calling, then we'll be in a much better position to judge his offense.
I think the knock on Bowen so far is is inability to adjust to what he's got when it's not what he wants.
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I'm not even sure it's adjusting to what he has. My recollection is that last year, we had like ONE receiver who could consistently catch a ball and our top 2 RBs banged up for the season. What adjustments do you make when receivers just aren't catching many balls and you need better RB play?
Maybe you have to run the same play because the players are even LESS reliable doing other stuff?
But what you actually do is get better receivers (recruited a bunch and got several in the portal). Granted, two of the portal guys looked good then promptly got injured, but they got players. And while the running game isn't good, most of our line is VERY young. Redshirt freshmen linemen probably aren't going to be very good. Maybe we pick some up in the portal, or maybe these guys will be a lot better with another year of development and S&C.
Hopefully Bowen liked what he saw with Drones and Jennings and Lane will be healthy enough to play soon and we can get an offense going.
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We could've scored a couple more times today and had it close with better play call
There were 2 turnovers, a missed FG, and 7 penalties for 75 yards - none of that has anything to do with play calling. Reverse the Tuten fumble, the missed FG, and that one ill-timed penalty (Jenkins?), and that's a 17 point swing.
I'm definitely not sold on Bowen, but the play calling today was more than good enough to win this game.
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Eh there were several runs up the middle that went for no gain that we telegraphed. The play call was definitely light years better than last week but still leaves some to be desired imo.
Main issue is the OL for sure
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The offense looked intermittently competent and Drones clearly made the Rush game more effective.
If Wells sees another snap this year barring injury, Bowen should be fired.
Problem I have is I see us doing many of the things next year that I was hoping to see more formation with this year. The interior of both Lines need to be replenished- the Moore bros are depth pieces on a P5 level, sorry.
And the LB core needs to be totally refurbished--lots of new bodies--even Lawson who is a freak athlete leaves lots to be desired when it comes to basic LB play.
I see a lot of the same next year..shuffling personnel..losing games due to lack of any continuity...
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There were definitely some major gaffs, but they did keep fighting.
Drones seemed to get more comfortable as the game went on. Would definitely like to see him with a healthy Lane and Jennings. I'm sure Wells wants to start next week against his old team but if he is not fully healthy I would stick with Drones.
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And as has been noted, he didn't have WR1 or 2 to throw to. Once he settled in, it may have looked very different if they were in the game. Felton can be good, but I felt he was a noticeable step down from Jennings.
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I drove from Morehead City to Raleigh to Richmond today, with explosive diarrhea from consuming a bad oyster. The 5.5 hour drive took 7.5 with all of the bathroom stops.
Still better than watching another VT loss to a team we should, and need to, beat.
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We all ate 2 dozen oysters each on my bachelor while drinking $1 Abita's watching a show about buildings blowing up while an old man played classic rock on his guitar.
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I would have to think that oysters are great for those who used to pick their nose and eat it growing up. The texture must bring back so many fond memories.
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Haha thank you. Raw oysters are freaking delicious. These were full of pea crabs too, though I guess they didn't give me good luck. This is the first time I've gotten sick off of them and my friend had at least 30, without getting sick.
I am not a huge fan of lemon on them, I prefer a tiny bit of horseradish and drop of hot sauce and make sure I when I shuck them that I leave all of the saltwater in them.
I'll be getting another 100 of them next week when I get back down to Morehead.
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Had this experience approx. 30 years ago and I have since sworn off (edited) raw oysters forever. I also was on the road however traveling (from New Bern to Blacksburg) with a fairly large group which made it even more miserable.
I rank raw oysters just barely above UVA and UNC.
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Oysters come from the Chesapeake bay. West coast Oysters look like small shoes. Big o y stars are crap. Small Oysters raw, with whatever your heart desire for a touch of flavor. But for God sakes , don't cover up the flavor of the oyster.
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So, in pre-game posts someone asked if we would rush for more than 3 yards? We gained 129 on the ground. We also outgained our opponent in total yardage which means that we pretty much shot ourselves in the foot. Pretty sure this is progress at the micro level we just need more of it at the macro level. We'll get there but just have to trust Pry's process. The culture is better and something just feels more pure and overall better with Pry than Fuente.
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We better stick with Drones going forward. Was way better running. Rolling out the pocket with the short passing game looked good at times. A few less dropped balls and not missing the FG and we probably put up 27. Not great, but not terrible against a decent defense.
Our problem now (in addition to lack of talent in some positions and lack of depth) is that we are just losers. And I don't mean that to be cutting. We have been losing for so long, I think we are used to it. At 21-16, will all the momentum, I never felt we had a chance to win. Just so used to losing these games. Think the players are there too. We have more talent and a lot of youngsters playing. Need to develop some more players and get more talent, but also need to just win a few of these games to get over the top. Hopefully we get there by next season. Take lumps with the kids now and build for 2024 and 2025.
Oh, and Tech fans were way louder than Rutgers ones. Really good turn out at the stadium.
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I too couldn't help but noticing all the youngsters that have been playing. That has got to be a silver lining of sorts. Upside is they are getting valuable experience. Coaches can actually recruit, with truth, that they can offer early playing time, if deserved. Downside is they are putting together tape for transfer portal.
I don't honestly know at what point in the season you say fuck it and just get the ones with promise more reps.
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The fumble may have been my fault. Go to the game with a friend of mine from Tech, Scott, and his girlfriend. These are the texts from me to my wife based on the conversation Scott and I had at the start of the game.
"We get the ball first. Scott say [sic] we go 3 and out. I say if we hold onto the ball. We fumble on the second play."
"Rutgers TD on next play."
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We're exactly where we knew we'd be if we got the injury bug.
It sucks to watch but it's reality until we can build depth fortunately we've got a lot of young guys getting time. Unfortunately they're clearly not ready.
My only red flag will be if Wells starts another game this season and Drones is healthy.
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1. Offense looked much more cohesive despite having two key players out. I'm not sure Drones is better than Wells, however the offense is certainly more cohesive/productive with Drones taking the snaps.
2. The defense, minus a few plays, played an outstanding game. I like the growth we are seeing as the weeks progress.
3. The team, despite being down early, never quit playing. I think Pry is laying down a great foundation for the type of culture VT is used to having.
4. I thought Bowen called a really good game. He seems to be trying to evolve and make adjustments. Sometimes I think the opposing coordinator has his number, but I appreciate that he is, seemingly, working to make chicken salad out of the shit he has (I'm mostly speaking about the OL).
The negative:
1. These slow starts... We spot the other team 3 scores every game. It's not good. We start the game with the jitters and seemingly woefully unprepared (we still have a ton of youth). Would love to see us put 4 quarters of football together.
2. Tackling... huge issue IMO. I like how aggressive the team is, but damn, we still can't tackle. And honestly, this goes back to the Bud years.
3. Horrible clock management in the 4th. Why is it that every VT offense, going all the way back to Stiney, absolutely refuses to move quickly late in the game when we still have a chance? We took the play clock down inside 10 with that stupid no-huddle, look to the sideline play call situation (I HATE that as well) on almost every play in the 4th. Just move quickly and you give yourself a chance. Why are we so adverse to trying to win games when a win is in reach?
4. Not that it mattered in the end, but why chase the points with that 2 point conversion?
Bonus:
I think I'm seeing some good seeds being planted with Pry and Co. But damn, it is really difficult some weeks. I'm not sure there are more than two winnable games on the schedule (Wake & UVA. And even those will be a challenge). So if Pry finishes year two with 6 total wins, he is going to lose a ton of goodwill he has built with the fanbase (I'm not suggesting that is warranted). Any momentum he may have had will mostly become stagnant if he can't find 4-5 wins by seasons end (again, I'm projecting onto the broader fanbase here). I really like Pry. I think he is a magnificent fit in Blacksburg, but sometimes it is difficult to see what he's trying to do.
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Less live practices means worse tackling, it's bad everywhere and every fab wants it to be better. Some one will make a fortune if they figure out how to improve tracking with out live drills.
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Yea, I originally had this in my comment, but removed it. I think oases tackles are a byproduct of less live practices, fear of targeting flags, and changes in defenses (in response to the spread/air raid/tempo). Not suggesting the trade off (for player safety) isn't worth it, but I think there likely is a connection.
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This is true, but only in these low scoring rock fights that we play in. If you're in a shootout you kick the xp because you don't know how many more scores there will be, and more than likely you'll want that point later on.
But both 2pt conversion and 4th down decisions should be dictated by the likelihood of converting. It completely varies for different teams in different situations. Go if you're pretty sure you're going to get it, otherwise game it out
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3. Horrible clock management in the 4th. Why is it that every VT offense, going all the way back to Stiney, absolutely refuses to move quickly late in the game when we still have a chance? We took the play clock down inside 10 with that stupid no-huddle, look to the sideline play call situation (I HATE that as well) on almost every play in the 4th. Just move quickly and you give yourself a chance. Why are we so adverse to trying to win games when a win is in reach?
To me this says the coaches know they need to scheme us to success. We can't just out talent if they call a good defensive play. So, in that case, you waste less time checking at the line than you do getting stuffed/throwing a pick/etc
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Yeah, I think the point of lining up before the play call is to see how the defense is aligned and then adjust the play accordingly. That being said, there needs to be a wrinkle they can use to up the tempo.
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I wish they picked up the pace at the end of the game as well.
This was the first game where I really noticed the new clock rules. Without stopping for first downs that clock was moving fast. It made me think that a run based offense might be the right approach. Get up early and drain that clock.
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Went to the game and watched it devoid of any commentary. Some points of emphasis and some questions:
* that very early fumble+td was absolutely killer. Just brutal
*Drones seemes.to move the ball well, but in the stands we wanted him to tuck it and run a little earlier than when we he was deciding to. Seems he could have taken an easy 4 yards but was looking for a throw and wound up getting 1 instead.
* Felton HAS to catch that ball. Just brutal
* end of half sequence killed us. Bad punt, give up a td with seconds left and then Rutgers had the ball again coming out of half, woof
* i thought it was too early for the offense to go for two
*Lofton was playing hurt, looked gimpy.
* i was confused on two rutgers tds: firstly was there an actual angle to justify overturning the call on the field for the end of half td? If so nothing was shown in the stadium. Secondly on the long run on 3rd and short at 21-16 -- did the refs miss a blatant holding/bitb on the edge? It looked egregious to me in real time and on the replay and i didnt understand it.
* that long run td by RU at 21-16 broke this team and most of the VT fans
*The roughing the passer penalty on us was absolutely brutal for that drive too
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On the Rutgers touchdown, it was blatantly obvious he was in. Not sure what the ref was looking at, he never came close to stepping out before breaking the plane inside the pylon.
Lofton impressed me, could not tell at all on TV he was hurt.
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I didnt think the guy stepped out, but there was zero angle shown in stadium the the ball broke the plane. Looked like one of those where the player got the feet through the endzone but maybe the ball never broke the plane in bounds. Had no idea what they were actually reviewing and it took a few years for them to come to a conclusion so i was curious what was actually being reviewed -- thanks!
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I noticed the scoreboard was showing "live shots" during the game that were definitely pre-recorded from earlier in the game. Student section doing the third down hand thing when they werent, etc
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With the first fumble and following 1 Play TD I groaned and feared the worse.
With some success in the following offensive series that made some yards. I saw they didn't let it get to them and I was encouraged.
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Drones mobility and ability to throw on the run is going to be what is needed given how bad the OL is. Don't need a QB with a great deep ball as I don't think any QB is going to get a chance to throw a deep ball much this year.
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I honestly don't know what to think. QB play and O-line was better today. Except for a couple of blown plays, the run defense was OK. Every other part of the team was OK to good, but had some blunders today. It all added up to a bad score.
Some silver linings:
Splitting the long runs (> 10 yds) from the others, VT's defense gave up:
5 runs, 138 yds (27.6 yd/att) 4 TDs
29 runs, 118 yds (4.1 yd/att) 0 TDs
If VT can get a little more consistent there, the VT D will be fine.
Drones is better QB than Wells. He has a much quicker release, picks up on matchups to exploit, can extend a play, and is better under pressure. He has some major limitations, bad deep ball and struggles with the RPO game.
But, those blunders today were numerous and bad. Some of it was flukey (like Moore's 14 yd punt), but some is systemic (run D misses). Fix the systemic and this team will show growth from year 1.
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It's not great, but it's not bad. And if Rutgers didn't have those long breaks, they don't get 4 TDs either and have less than 200 yards of total offense. Rutgers could not sustain drives.
That said, the rush defense is definitely the most frustrating aspect of this team right now. And unfortunately, those long backbreaker runs will likely continue for the season.
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This was the big sense in the stadium too. Big Break-But -Dont-Bend energy from our defense. Except in years past it was sell out to stop the run and pressure the qb and trust the dbs to make plays, now it's cross the fingers and hope the run defense doesnt bust
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Bowen called a better game for Drones than he ever has for Wells
Keller stood out in a good way
Mose is going to be a baller, he had that wheel route covered like very few would
Lawson just needs more game time because when he's on he's on so just get him more acquainted with the position
Lane and Jennings were missed
We need to get the ball to Tuten in space!
I like that we see separation from the WRs purely from their route running
Chaplin stands out in a good way
TE Gosnell had a couple "blocks" that made some nice ribs happen, so he is at least getting in the way of defenders and slowing them down
Delane should have had that ball, it hit him in the chest
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Year 1 in a 6 year build. Hopes aren't high this season or next. Need transformative improvement in Recruiting that will lead to incremental improvement over time during the season.
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Agreed. Scheme and S&C and experience all are tools toward success but can only carry you so far. We need a step change in Jimmy and Joes.
I like Pry's investment in relationships. That is certainly one piece of the recruiting puzzle. Also and obviously more NIL $ can only help.
What else is needed? Where should the first change be made? More resources in recruiting (headcount)? Younger and/or big personality recruiters who can relate better to recruits?
More focus on the portal?
I am probably only stating the obvious with the questions. But, the recruiting results over the last decade by and large have been perhaps the toughest pill to swallow.
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Our offense looked better because Drones is more sure of himself than Wells. He might not always make the correct read, but he's all in on the decision when he makes it, whereas it's like Wells second guesses himself throughout every play. That alone made the rushing offense and short yard passing look a lot better.
Our depth sucks, we know this. We wouldn't be shocked that any P5 school is able to dominate entire quarters against us when we are playing with a bad G5 roster. There's a healthy number of players here who I'm not sure get a scholarship at any other meaningful program, and it's going to take time to cycle through it all.
In the meantime, we are a bad team with players who make uncoachably bad mistakes throughout games. I'm not sure we win another game this year. At this point the only thing that matters is how well we recruit over the next 30 months. If it doesn't turn around soon, we are so bad that Virginia Tech football probably never recovers. You cannot win without talent, and right now we don't have a lot, and we are again seeing the same old refrain of some of our better commits flipping elsewhere. Not a great sign
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Fuente really fucked us. And not firing him sooner set us back a decade. I think Whit probably wanted to make a change after 2019 but Sands wouldn't let him because it was too expensive. The huge contract extensions have proved to be fatal. We gave ourself our own death penalty
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I mean, I wanted him (or at the very least, Cornelsen) gone after 2018. 2019 was saved by Hooker but by then it was abundantly clear that the offense we hired him for was never materializing. The longer we held on to him the worse the damage was going to be. Surely Whit knew this. We ended up keeping Fuente et al about 3 years too long imo
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I knew this would be a multi-year rebuild, but it's 1.25 years into that, and I'm not feeling great this team turns a corner next season. A bowl in year 3 felt attainable before Pry was hired, but I don't know now. Drones was improved over Wells, so that's a positive. But it just feels like the entire assistant staff sans Mines needs upgrading.
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This staff has to attack the portal hard this off-season. OL, DL, LB are the priorities. Still major concerns with the coaching/development with this staff and if they can recruit and develop the talent we need to turn this thing around. Was also pleased that the offense seemed to have a turning point yesterday and Drones should definitely be the starter. If they trot Wells back out, notwithstanding injury, I will turn the tv off.
Like Pry a lot and he certainly wins the off-season. But the talent development and coaching aspects are leaving a ton to be desired.
In regards to the offense, happy they got more creative and opened things up yesterday. But infuriating that they chose Wells to start the season after him looking great with a non contact jersey and throwing against air all spring and camp. That was just not a fair way to evaluate both of these QBs.
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Looking at the scholarship numbers yesterday was eye opening to me. Nearly half our current scholarships (41/85) are going to freshman.
If you work backwards - assume that we get ~25 freshman per class, and half pan out, that means ~12 per year work out, which basically means 4 years to get a decent two-deep.
You can argue this is not a good strategy in the transfer portal/pre-super conference era (and I am very open to that argument), but this is Pry's plan, presumably the one he pitched Whit & co when being interviewed. We're in it for a bit - maybe not because we need to be, but because Pry thinks it's the best path forward.
I hope he's right.
But it just feels like the entire assistant staff sans Mines needs upgrading.
I'm pretty okay with the defensive staff? Anyone you're unhappy with?
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I think Pry pitched to Whit a four-year plan like you mentioned, which is why he is on record saying 2025 should be when they have the roster where they want it. He wants to rebuild relationships in high schools in VA and the greater footprint and build the program that way, and supplement through the transfer portal to patch holes as needed. Truth be told, I think we needed to be even more aggressive in the transfer portal than we have been (especially OL and DL). But I don't think he can go full in on that direction because it could burn bridges again in the high schools if players are processed out in favor of transfers. I think it is a really interesting argument/debate whether Pry going back to Beamer's high school recruiting strategy is a good idea vs. going in heavy on the portal in this new era.
I think we need to be extremely aggressive in the portal this offseason with OL and the D front 7. We will be in year 3 of 4 of Pry's plan, and the DL depth is absolutely frightening next year. Plus factor in an OL that is arguably one of the worst in all of FBS.
This is my concern - Pry is not going to be aggressive enough in the portal in the trenches and the staff is going to run out of time. We all know Pry is safe regardless after this year, but I think many in the program were looking to some signs of progress in the win column. That is really in doubt at this point (with Drones potentially a silver lining for the offense, but will it be enough). Another really bad year I think will be a disappointment, and if we can't make a bowl in year three (2024), I think this staff will run out of time and patience from donors and the fan base.
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I think the idea is to build your 2-deep as much as possible through recruiting and development, and then plug gaps with the portal. I think the is the only sustainable way to build a roster. You can't realistically expect to just go get an entire OL in the portal every year.
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At this point, I just don't trust Pry and Whit to execute whatever plan they've come up with. This opinion might change over time, especially as Pry grows in the role, but I am just lacking faith right now, much more so in Whit than Pry. It's hard to trust Pry because he's learning on the job. Whit's been bumbling around with football since he took over. His best (and only?) excellent football move was hiring Fuente, everything else has been just so blah to me.
Anyone you're unhappy with?
To put it nicely, it's a staff that feels more suited for G5, not P5 based on experience. Marve has definitely shown some consistent growth though.
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Funny enough, Pry mentioned that out of all his assistant hires (up until Crook), Mines is the only one he didn't know personally and conducted interviews for. And I think we all agree that was a slam dunk hire. I really wish he would have done that for more positions on the staff/might have to reevaluate and do that at some point in the future.
Agree on Whit - I think the evidence suggests heavily at this point that football just isn't his strength and he relies heavily on Ballein...who just wants to do everything the way Beamer did back in the day. Enter Pry.
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This is the norm in business overall tbh. I know when I have an open position the first people I reach out to are the people that have worked for me before. I know what I am getting and what that person can do.
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Yeah, the "*insert X coach* only hired his buddies" is so obnoxious because it ignores how college football hiring works and acts like we're an outlier when we're not. The "Fuente didn't fire his buddy" talking point was legit, but for hires most staffs will have worked together or are friends in some capacity.
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I've been at my current company for over 30 years. Every single position I 've ended up in was because someone who knew me and my skillset said "Hey- come work for me". I've had several high up in the company mentors/'rabbis' and over time decision-making folks learn who knows their stuff and who doesn't- and who is willing to speak up when there's an issue instead of taking the 'safe route' and not saying anything to rock the boat or not being willing to make a decision(or at least recommendation) based on experience and common sense.
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Whit's been bumbling around with football since he took over.
Genuine question - what has Whit not done that you would like to see? He's upgraded facilities and increased the staff purse. Do you feel these things just didn't happen fast enough, or is there something else you think he should be doing?
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It's a very macro argument for me, I'd like him to oversee a football program that's consistently ranked in the top 25. He's fallen woefully short of that.
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Whit has had one foot out the door for several years now. It's no secret he is looking to leave. perhaps not wanting this job is affecting his performance?
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At one time I heard rumblings he was in contention for the ACC commissioner job. Interesting he may be looking to move. He's done good things for athletics overall, but really fallen flat with football.
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He's overrated. I said it. Can't manage the football program- which is all that matters- ultimately can't deliver a national title in anything- something literally every other school can do. Stanford wins 10 of them a year, UVA wins about 1 a year - oh its so impossible. Anyway- he's overrated. Well spoken, nice guy but meh. VT can do better
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If Whit wants to bounce then sure, some jobs are a job and not a dream job. But his job right now needs to be to make VT an attractive position. We had a G5 AD that didn't matter because we had one of the best coaches of all time, then we brought in some one that is known for bring in money. We are slightly out of the G5 mentality, so our next AD needs to be a big time P5 AD. It's the progression we need. If we did that 10 years ago it would have been a mess. But now we need to take that next step to become a real P5 Athletic Department.
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Funny story - my wife and I were looking at some apartments several years ago and the property manager mentioned the new tapas bar nearby as an attraction. I thought I heard her say topless bar. My facial expressions I'm sure looked wildly confused for several minutes.
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Well that job ain't coming around anytime soon unless he can manage to turn the VT football program around.
Why the hell would any school that would be considered a 'decent job' take a guy who has overseen the absolute destruction of the moneymaker of a Power 5 school? Especially when that moneymaker was rattling off 10 win seasons and frequent major bowl appearances right before he was hired?
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The only reason a lot of those changes happened was because Fuente strong armed him into them by flirting with Baylor...if Football was a priority, those things should've happened earlier.
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Are recruits and portal guys really going to continue to come to tech? Jump on a sinking ship? There will be questions regarding can this staff coach them up. Pry can charm, but can he and his staff coach? I so wanted him to be the guy, but I don't see progress.
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Coaching them up, at least on offense, is that we lost Glenn and Rudolph. Consistency in coaching staff probably helps with player development.
And our O-line is YOUNG. Well, and as someone loose pointed out, 41 of our players are freshmen. That's about half the team. There's a reason freshmen don't usually start, and on O-line sophomores don't usually either. Turning over our roster has some good points, but it's hard to win with a very young team.
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VT is mired in 10 years of mediocrity at best because we think we are unicorns. Most programs turn over coaches ever year. It's not some weird phenomenon to lose assistants. They want to move up too if they want to be head coaches. We also aren't the only young team in the country or the only team with new players. It's VT's mentality around it that is the issue.
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But this goes back to your donor argument, have any of the donors told Whit that losing to Rutgers was bad and if he needs payout money just ask? FSU might still be paying Oregon for hiring Taggart. If you want to get in those situations the money has to be there.
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I know for a fact that donors told Whit to fire Fuente after the home loss to liberty. Point blank. Pry will be in deep shit if he loses to ODU again and is not a 10 win team too. The donors are sick of losing to G5 virginia schools. Sad thing is - if we played JMU this year they would murder us.
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JMU is just more committed to football than VT is - VT lost their commitment to football when Steger left. Sands is the head of the snake and he's not going anywhere, unfortunately. I think it would be prudent to just expect our football program to languish in mediocrity for the next couple decades at least.
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Find me another team in a P5 conference with 5 redshirt freshmen in the two deep on their OLine. And even if you do, if that's just an excuse, I expect them to have outstanding performance compared to ours. And youth matters a lot more in some positions than others. The way I read French's posts about the OLine, it just doesn't seem like there is a substitute for experience and years in the weight room. So yeah, a TEAM may be fairly young and be successful, but your offense is more likely to suffer if your line is very young more so than if you have young receivers and a young QB.
And yes, teams may turn over a coach every year, but it's probably not likely that it's the coach at the same position every year. We've had three offensive line coaches in three years.
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I said we were bad this year and that is OK. I said that. But not to burst your bubble, we aren't the only team with second year players in the 2 deep on offense. We aren't
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I didn't say second year players in the 2 deep. I said 5 redshirt freshmen out of 10 in the two deep for the OLine. The part about it being specifically the OLine is the important distinction there.
Teams with that many guys that young on your OLine isn't going to get good play from their line.
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The old coach scared Hudson and Nester off. Else we aren't having this conversation. I don't have time to research OLs across the country but I highly doubt we are a unicorn there either.
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I mean, Hoffmans father and one of nester's/Hudson's fathers (I forgot which) continued the players' dispute on Twitter. Not like the dirty launder was kept in the locker room.
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Now that everybody seems to agree it was a complete rebuild, let's talk about exactly what that really looks like and the progress that has been made on upgrading the roster/program:
QB - Fuente left Burmeister (SDSU backup WR) and Knox Kadum (we stole from JMU, then he went D2), and a guy who last played QB when he was 16 before being relegated to special teams at ATM.
Pry brings in Wells, Brown (SEC backup, but experience as a starter), and Drones (high 4 star that fits the system). This is about as much as we could hope for, under the circumstances. We've also got Pop, with Delvi and a good 25 recruit lined up.
RB - We had 13 RBs, but not a single one was P5 caliber. Insert Tuten.
WR - Fu's 2 "studs" can't crack the 2 deep (Lofton is only playing due to injury, Jones moved to defense). Insert Jennings, Lane, Felton. Clearly the best 3 players on offense.
LT - Barring Silas Danzi's miracle 6th year of eligibility that nobody saw coming, we had 1 LT on the roster. True freshman farm boy Xavier Chaplin. Probably the best lineman on the team, but very raw and a project who is showing progress.
C - We didn't have a center behind Johnny Jordan, who also got an extra year unexpectedly. That's why they moved the elder Moore, who clearly has never snapped, and it shows (see bouncing shotgun snaps). His backup is Hollifield, who never played OL, much less center before VT. Clearly there is no confidence in him.
OG - You have 4 freshmen competing for a spot otherwise held by a 26 year old former missionary who had to go to junior college bc he had no other P5 offers. This is after Hanson, who had his limitations, is out for the season.
RT - Parker is average at best. Literally nobody behind him.
Yet Fu let Hudson and Nester - our 2 highest rated linemen in 15 years transfer bc their parents didn't get along with Hoffman's parents. Now they have the highest grades on WVU/Louisville.
We brought in Frady, and are trying to develop some young guys, but this is the biggest lift on the team. Especially after Rudolph didn't target the portal and we missed in the kid from App State.
Now for defense:
DE - Not a single P5 DE - Insert APR. Best player on the whole unit.
DT - Not a single P5 caliber DT. When Pry first arrived, he encouraged Fuga to transfer because "we couldn't win with his limitations." Now he starts and is team captain. Great Hokie. Mediocre player.
Pollard, Kendricks, Pene, all undersized. None of them would start at another P5 school. This another area that is crippling our ability to be competitive. But we're recruiting our asses off on the DL.
LB - literally not a guy on the team with experience as Mike linebacker. So we move 196lb Tisdale and a bunch of former safeties and then wonder why we can't fit gaps. The miss/lack of patience with Stone Snyder is looking questionable, but an effort was made there. This will be another off-season portal target.
DBs are good, but backups at all 5 positions are literally freshman or converted WRs. Rebuild in progress.
So, we've brought in Jennings, Lane, Felton, Tuten, Canteen, Wells/Drones, and APR. These are undoubtedly the best players on the team. Next portal targets will be the lines and linebackers.
All of this makes no mention of the lack of facilities, support staff, and all the malpractice discussed in the ESPN article.
So, clearly, the rebuild is in progress, but this is an across the board heavy lift, and now our starting RG, TE, WR1, WR2, QB, LB, S are all injured and didn't play. And we wonder why we lost?
Insert "Rome wasn't built in a day, the night is darkest before the dawn," or whatever other cliche you choose.
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Thank you for bringing up all of this depth into 1 place. We did a lot. And I want to know from the people who say we did not hit the portal hard enough for OL, do we really know that? Maybe we didn't, I just don't know. But does anyone have actual intel that we were not trying to get OL players and anyone who was any good, understandably did not want to come to a complete rebuild situation?
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Analyzing portal recruitment for a like analyzing offensive play calling. If the coach calls a play and it doesn't work, we all assume he made a bad play call without really having any idea what was called.
Some people assume because we didn't get OL it means we didn't try to get OL, and if the coaches just "get more aggressive in the portal", whatever that means, then we'll magically get a bunch of linemen. And yeah, I know Duke did it, but that's a sample size of one. I don't think it's that easy at all.
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We're going to have to start playing a numbers game. It's easier to bring in numbers on OL in the portal and hope 2-3 of them really work out than play the long game and hope high school talent develops in 4-5 years. The staff and program doesn't have that sort of time at this point.
I think you have to heavily slant your NIL toward the trenches since those positions are the hardest to recruit and develop and try to bring in numbers each cycle in the portal.
Rutgers also had 3 of 4 of their starting DL yesterday that are portal transfers. This is happening more and more. And it's easier to recruit the portal in a lot of ways - those guys have been through the whole official visit drama and process. It's more of a business decision - visit, meet with coaches, talk playing opportunity/scheme fit, NIL dollars. Whit has gone on record saying he thinks we can be competitive with NIL rather than facilities and other arms races, so why not try to capitalize on this now? The worst we could do is try and fail.
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The problem with this is that Johnny Jordan sucked too. Can't play dead in a western. Hoffman was OK- not Jackie Slater either. The portal is great- if the guys you bring in can play.
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What I can't quite wrap my head around - there is very limited top OL talent in the portal, and certainly moreso in high school, so the average team doesn't have great OL talent. But somehow we are well below average on OL. Did we just get super unlucky? Bad evaluations? There are G5 and FCS teams with better OL play that we have right now.
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Echo what other Ben said above, but also can't ignore the fact that the remaining upperclassmen have had 3 OL coaches in 3 years. Last year, they tried (and failed) to implement a complete new blocking scheme.
Not a great formula for success.
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Yes totally forgot to mention that as well. OL is a position where you really need coach continuity. OL coaches don't move around very often and it's not uncommon for new head coaches to retain the OL coach. Parker and Kaden haven't been developed well because nobody has stuck around to develop them.
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Not enough numbers- plain and simple. You know that OL 1. take time to develop and grow strength wise and 2. often don't pan out. So numbers, numbers, numbers... that's how you find a Sergio Render. Christian Darrisaw, etc. You have to have enough kids in the room to compete and pick the ones that can actually play from a larger pool of choices.
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There's a reason Elko taking 13 portal offensive lineman in his first two classes (not including several from the high school ranks as well) paid major dividends up front for Duke. People like to talk about coach turnover but fact is we just haven't brought in enough quality lineman to compete. We had ample opportunities under Pry to bolster the position instead of spinning our wheels with guys who haven't demonstrated they can exceed at this level, and we're paying the price for that neglect.
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We also aren't the only young team in the country or the only team with new players.
Is what you said in response to me saying our OLine is very young in a comment above, but here you are saying the OLine needs time to develop and grow strength wise.
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There are a shortage of quality OL in the portal, which makes it tough to land one
The coaches are ultimately responsible for this roster, and having just 4 capable linemen, 2-3 of which are playing out of position, is not good
The coaches have had two off seasons to address the line issues, and have brought in just one transfer (who is at best a contributor, at worst mediocre)
The staff is trying to build out the roster without hurting the feelings of nearby high school coaches, which means tough, slow build
The Duke comparison keeps coming up:
Duke did a tremendous job scouting linemen - way better than us, or anyone else - it's no coincidence that duke was the best offer any of those guys had
Elko had a very good strategy of targeting linemen from nerd schools (at all levels) and (I don't know, but I think based on trends) selling them on the combination of a Duke education AND level of athletics. That's just a fundamentally different pitch than Pry is/can offer.
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I've been thinking about who is the future on the line:
Xavier Chaplin (only current starter that looks like he belongs)
Aidan Lynch
Brody Meadows
Layth Ghannam
Tommy Ricard
*Braelin Moore (hard maybe, needs to fundamentally improve)
Potential Backups:
Parker Clements (maybe)
Kaden Moore (maybe at guard)
Johnny Garrett (if he can stay healthy)
Doubtful Future/No future:
Johnny Dickson
Hunter McClain
Unknown:
Gabriel Arena
Hannes Hammer
Lance Williams
Web Davidson
Bob Schick and Frady could be decent 1 year depth players next season, but not necessarily spots we should hold if there are game changers in the portal.
Overall I'm glad the roster is young and we're doing what we need to have a really good line in 2026. But if we want to be decent there over the next two years, we're going to have to hit the portal hard
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Pry, when competing on the trail with Elko should sell the kids on actual people being in the stands that aren't visiting fans. Which I am sure he does. He could also tell them that no matter what they do at Duke, the hoops team is more important.
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Elko has landed 4 players from Ivy League schools (Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Penn) and one player from Stanford - these players are all listed on duke's 2-deep (at Ourlads.com). I don't know this for a fact, but I think it's a fair assumption: These kids care more about playing school at Duke than playing at football school.
Elko has landed 5 other linemen - only one of them (Jacob Long, from Angelo State) is listed on the two deep, and best I can tell, he is yet to get a snap this year.
Looking at the guys that VT was allegedly in the mix with:
Appalachian State C Troy Everett - went to OU
Wyoming OG Emmanuel Pregnon - went to USC
Tulsa OT Jaden Muskrat - went to Auburn
Harvard OL Mason Williams - at WKU and has not played
Gardner-Webb OT Clayton Frady - at best a contributor at VT
You can make the argument that Pry/Rudolph should have been more aggressive in the portal in the '22 off season. You can be upset that we lost Everett, Pregnon, or Muskrat to bluebloods. You can be frustrated that we haven't developed anyone on our roster yet. But 'we're getting out-recruited by Duke' isn't a legit narrative.
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Elko has landed 4 players from Ivy League schools (Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Penn) and one player from Stanford - these players are all listed on duke's 2-deep (at Ourlads.com). I don't know this for a fact, but I think it's a fair assumption: These kids care more about playing school at Duke than playing at football school.
A little bit of a misnomer as some of the Ivy League kids are graduate transfers, meaning they already have a degree in hand from an elite institution.
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I think that furthers my point - a Harvard degree plus a VT degree is fine. A Harvard degree plus a Duke degree is way more valuable. Maybe I'm biased by my experience in the MBA prestige-chasing world, but stacking degrees from elite universities might be the best way to fail up in life.
Regardless - Pry didn't go after these guys. Maybe that's a scouting miss, maybe that's a culture mismatch, either way, there's a clear a trend of Elko looking for a very specific profile of player in the portal, and it's very different from what Pry targeted.
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My follow-on question would be to ask what post-graduate degree program they are in a Duke and compare how many VT actually offers or is elite at before assuming Pry didn't chase them.
If the program is not here for a few then that would be a waste of resources to chase them.
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I'd think having a diploma with "Duke" written on it may be a bigger selling point than having a lot of fans in the stands (unless they are an NFL hopeful that doesn't plan on graduating from wherever they go).
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This is a fantastic post. Thank you. And this is why Rutgers and Purdue are better than we are. It's not about Ballein- its about the roster. It is criminal what Fu left for Pry- nothing- as you pointed out- literally nothing. But I remember the excuse that Beamer left nothing for Fuente- and I laughed it off because it was horseshit. Beamer left Fuente 2012 Alabama compared to what was left for Pry.
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I don't know how it looked on TV, but in person, Drones passed the eye test for me. He struggled with a couple reads on the read option, it looked like there were a few that if he had kept it would have been decent gains, and he threw 2 bad balls that I saw. One we got a PI on the underthrown ball, and the other he got picked on a helluva play by the DB where our 2 receivers knocked each other out. I saw a couple of smart 'throw it away's', and several passes that didn't quite connect, but only our guy could have gotten it.
He looked calm and confident from the nosebleed seats. I'll have to go back and rewatch the game on watchespn to see if I still feel the same way.
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At the point when it was 21-3, I felt a lot of despair. In years past, that would have put the team in a dark hole and the game would have ended 49-6. But yesterday we fought back to make it 21-16. Similar story w Purdue when we were down 17-0. Years past, no shot of trying to score yet alone tie it up at 17. While we.lost both games, at least we didn't roll up in a ball and just give up. We might not have the horses currently to score 50 points or to not go down big in the first half, but there is a least some sort of light down that tunnel.
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Didn't get to watch the game until today. Too busy tailgating at the Backyard Brawl with my entire family.
I am at the 3:39 mark of the 3rd where we just scored the TD on a Drones to Felton pass.
The score is 21-10. Take away the gifted TD on our fumble in the 1H and not miss a 36 yarder and the score is 13-14.
The oasis tackles become painful in the 3rd.
Overall the D has played decent before the missed tackle syndrome took over.
Drones should have been the starter from the get-go. If passing was the delta that put Wells as QB1 then my eyes aren't qualified to make that distinction.
Offense is doing better. Not great, as our OL SUHHHHHHH—UUUUUUKS, but I like what I am seeing. The potential is there. Like the play calling. Like what they are doing with Tuten. Need more of it.
I know they pull away but at this point I see a better team out there and am encouraged.
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And.......I should have waited until after that next drive. A great drive from top to bottom with a Tuten TD. With what was stated above and the "wooda, cuda, shuda took place and we are ahead in the 4th. I'll take it.
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My thoughts are that I thought Bowen called a pretty good game. We didn't score 40 points, because you can't score 40 points with shanked punts, missed chip shot FG's, false starts, holdings, etc. Way too many mistakes to score 40 on a competent DC like Schiano. But, Bowen called a pretty good game. He got WRs open down field, he got a little space for Drones with an OL that is G5 level and young, etc. It's not on him, IMO. Rutgers is just better. They were bigger up front, and didn't make many mistakes. IIRC we forced NINE punts - that's usually a win, but they were the better prepared team and made less mistakes. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Now for Marve... meh- 100% thus far. Way too many explosive plays in the run game by opponents- all opponents. So the system is broken in terms of our personnel running it- and that's coaching. And Rutgers last touchdown was total typical recent VT defense bullshit. Untouched 50 yard TD on 3rd and 1- on a basic power cut back that high schools run. We can't just hold them to 6 yards there- nah, dude has to score untouched because we can't defend a basic run play. I've said it- my theme this season is we are bad- very bad- and that's OK. If we stand pat in the off season like VT coaches are apt to do- then we are in trouble again.
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That cutback is probably not happening with Peoples in there. I think it was Jones that bit so hard on the misdirection he was 15 yards to the others side of the field
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Coach Preilou needs to have more than 1 guy ready. But again, that's where VT football is at the moment- not good. and that's OK. Until hard changes need to be made.
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Yeah I mean our whole roster under our starters isn't good across the board. We took in a bunch of G5 guys that not only became instant starters but have a good amount of distance between them and our more senior players just the reality of the situation.
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Now for Marve... meh- 100% thus far. Way too many explosive plays in the run game by opponents- all opponents. So the system is broken in terms of our personnel running it- and that's coaching.
oh
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And? The defense did their job- for some of the game. We gave up 35 points and backbreaking 7.7 ypc overall though. More than 1 thing can be true. We played decent enough in stretches to flip the field for our offense- yes. But 7.7 ypc is horrid run defense. Is run defense part of the defense's "job"?
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just FTR, I wasn't challenging you. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition - and I agree, the defense is atrocious on run defense but they also get a fair amount of stops. It's a bit jekyll and hyde
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I was talking to my buddy about some of the guys on defense running right past the guy with the ball in the backfield. I think that's happened at least twice - once up the gut and once our guy ran past the RB who was running behind the line before cutting up at the edge. Like a couple of our guys have zero nose for the ball. That's not coaching, that's the players. Like how much coaching is needed for "find the guy with the bill and tackle him, and really don't just run past the guy with the ball."
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I'm also like that he's been making an effort to get Tuten the ball on space via the pass. Because the OL can't make a hole for him to run through. It's a change that minimizes a weakness and maximizes a strength, which is the sort of thing I expect a competent OC to be able to do.
The defense just has no margin for error. The fact that we are able to get stops shows that we have players who can get the job done if they're in the right spot. We just have so many inexperienced players on the field right now that they aren't getting into the right spots. Yes that's on the coaches to fix, but it's not something they can fix in a week. If the coaching staff can clean up the back 7 on D and show general improvement vs the run, I'm good. We are still going to give up the occasional explosive play because of inexperience. However if the coaches are doing their jobs the averages should start shifting in the right direction.
If the same players are making the same mistakes in November, then that's on the coaches, IMO.
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in the middle of a rewatch of what i missed (2nd half)
Drones feels very 3rd and Logan - which oddly enough makes me very comfortable assuming the d can get a little better consistently and we can settle in offensively with the tuten and felton to make the plays when needed.
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I honestly hope it is Drones the rest of the way, but I have a bad feeling we are not done seeing Wells once he gets healthy.
Drones should play the rest of the way IMO, and not just because he give us a better chance to win, but because he will get much more experience since he is likely to be the starter the next couple years.
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I have this feeling too, I don't know why I have this feeling its blatantly obvious that Drones is the better player for this team. If it does end up back at Wells I'm checking out for the rest of the season and I'll be boarding the first fire everybody train to misery town.
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I'm with you - I've already kinda checked out on this season TBH - the team is bad (just like we all knew it would be) but I'll really be done with this staff if they trot Wells out there again. Drones very clearly is the best QB for this team. Appreciate Wells for his service and for coming in to play for the Hokies in a time of need but Drones is the better option and needs to get the experience going into the future. Plus, Wells, frankly, just isn't very good.
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I was dead wrong on Wells vs Drones. I didn't think Drones running ability would be that much of an upgrade with a poor run blocking OL, and I thought his knowledge of the playbook/passing would be detrimental. But, he's clearly QB1 moving forward. I got serious Logan Thomas nostalgia. The difference is that this mostly inept offense isn't partnered with a great defense. There are games we can win on this schedule, but we have to limit explosive runs.
I'll reiterate again, I don't care about the W-L record until next year. I won't call for heads to roll until next year. This year and last year are mostly a wash on the field. Individual improvement over the course of the season is what matters. We saw Greene get some touches, Lofton has improved, Lovett, Phillips, and Woodson continue to get run. Drones is QB1 this year with 2 more years of eligibility left, idk if he's the future under center, but if he is he'll have a lot of game experience.
The other positive is I finally made it to a Chicago Hokies watch party and we had a great turnout:
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Glad to see Chicago turning out? Regardless yes. This is the feel to have. There's work to do. It will be ugly, too many gaps. We will lose games we should win before we win them because experience. The institutional knowledge of how to wreck shit is not easily handed down.
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New debate, would we have beaten Purdon't if Drones started over Wells?
I think yes, the offense was so pedestrian and the defense doing enough to stop them that a small improvement on offense for just a FG or two combined with the extra rest for the defense would lead to a squeaker of a W.
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I'm kinda done with the "what if" games, TBH. Nothing against you, homebrewhokie, but we've been playing "what if" on TKP for what feels like the last 7 years or so and I'm just sick of it. We're bad and we lost. We've lost a lot of games. We don't have much talent. The coaching is less than inspiring. IIWII - I don't want to think about "what if"
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Correct. Saturday Rutgers was better. No if ands or buts, they are a better team. They are bigger, stronger, and more disciplined. It is what it is. They completed 4 passes and beat us by 19. That's not luck or an accident. They are better. We need to face that reality. Marshall is probably better too- certainly on offense they are.
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The way I heard it phrased on the TSL podcast was something to the effect of 'The medical staff didn't have time to do a proper evaluation given the shortened half time break.'
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The current VT twitter sentiment that Drones is a no brainer #1 and light years ahead of Wells is not true in reality. You heard what the head coach said "inconsistent" - Now I know Wells is not Montana, but the difference between the 2 doesn't match what the fans think right now.
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That's fine. However, they trot Wells back out there, I turn the tv off. I'm sure a lot of others are in the same boat. He ain't it, and Drones at least gives us a chance.
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See, this is my thing. Drones gave us a chance against Rutgers? Not really. I think people see him run around a bit and think that he is going to be Lamar Jackson and we are going to win. That's not the case. The 2 QBs aren't much different in terms of the bottom line- production, points, etc.
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Our running game was drastically different. It wasn't good and its probably not sustainable but we're talking about the best defense we've played (by quite a bit) and its the only game we've averaged more than a single yard per carry in Drones first ever start so yeah I'd say he gives us a better chance to win, probably not night and day better but its better.
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I don't think Drones is a game changer type QB, but I think his skill set gets Bowen in his comfort zone as far as scheming and playcalling. It allows us to be a little more creative on O and give the defense more to think about. It also really helped soften up the middle of the D, and I think he was better than most thought he would be throwing. He just needs more reps. Plus, this style of offense fits the future of the QB room as well with Pop etc. waiting in the wings.
To me it's like Tahj Boyd vs Deshaun Watson. Tahj was a system fit for Morris' Clemson offense and was productive, but then Watson enters that system and is a true game breaker. Drones is much more in the Boyd mold, but he helps the offense open up and do more schematically.
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For me it comes down to the mobility of Drones considering how bad our OL play is. He has the ability to extend plays that Wells hasn't shown. Do I think Wells is better passer? Yes but not by enough to counter Drones being able to turn sacks into positive runs/throws.
Not saying it's Wells fault, but the OL makes Drones the better fit for who our team is now.
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Not to mention this is already a throw away year. Chances of making a bowl game are pretty much a non-existent at this point. Why not get the likely starter next year more game reps to grow into the role. Maybe if we beat Purdue I would think differently but at this point I am thinking more about the progress and how it affects next two years.
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After digesting a few days and listening to the TSL pod and other reactions from the game, I have a few thoughts. Offensively, I agree with the consensus that this was Bowen's best game. He seemed to be much more comfortable and creative scheming for Drones' skill set. Drones absolutely should be the guy moving forward. Was he flawless? Absolutely not, but you can see the potential there and I think he played very well. He opens the offense up more and opens up the run game more by rolling out in the pocket/options and misdirection runs/qb run threat on the draw/and so forth.
I am somewhat skeptical about Wells' injury, and I frankly think the way this QB situation has been handled is terrible. It almost feels like this is a soft benching of Wells to see what they've got in Drones. Wells injury seems week to week and unknown (too hurt to play, but not too hurt to be available), and if Drones really struggles I guarantee he miraculously is better. Just really think this whole QB thing has been botched and handled horribly.
Defensively, I am very concerned. We just look like a soft team. I don't know if it is from practicing without live QBs and a very finesse passing game with a weak OL, or we just haven't held guys accountable, or some combination of all. But this is Pry's wheelhouse, and we have three LB coaches on staff. It's really inexcusable to have this much regression on defense. I don't know what they're thinking with some of the personnel at LB, and they're going to have to rotate Delane or Canteen over to safety. Can't roll with Jones and Mose there if Peoples and Stroman are hurt.
I am extremely concerned about the coaching chops of this staff right now, and that starts with Pry. Injuries happen, but it's up to the coaches to mitigate that. I think he will ultimately need to have some of these hard conversations he talks about and upgrade his staff if he wants to be successful. He hired a lot of comfort hires (friends), and I think he's going to need to reevaluate that. I get Dabo vibes from him, in the sense that he's got the charisma and personality to be the face of the program, but I think he's going to need good assistants around him. Looking ahead, I feel like we're going to need to bring in a true QB coach on offense that fits Bowen's style (jury still ultimately out on Bowen, but Saturday was encouraging), and I think we ultimately will need to make some changes on the defensive side. Will he be able to have these hard conversations when he needs to? Or will there be any accountability from the administration? We know he's close with Ballein and Babcock seems to be totally hands off with football.
This is a rebuild no doubt, but fans have a right to be upset with how inexcusably bad we are right now with little signs of improvement. We're going to find out a lot about Pry as a coach and program manager over the next 6 months.
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Re: qb battle: yes, it was handled poorly, no, this wasn't a manufactured injury to bench Wells; this staff is just very cagey about injuries
Re: defensive regression - imo this has more to do with personnel - both inexperience (eg jones and philliphs) and people playing out of position (eg tisdale) than anything else
The problem is, the staff hasn't done anything to give us confidence that they will excel when these problems are fixed.
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Think we are mostly on the same page, and agree with your last sentence. Regarding Wells' injury, I don't doubt there is some injury concern there. But something seems fishy about it. It's almost like a long time ago when Grant Noel had a sudden knee injury in camp and they gave Bryan Randall the nod. Legit injury but think the severity was in question, and it was a convenient avenue to soft bench Noel and play the higher upside Randall.
If Wells is too hurt to start but not too hurt to dress and be available to play if need be, it sort of tells me they want to kick the tires on Drones and see what they've got. Especially since the TSL crowd is saying Wells is definitely out for Marshall but not sure beyond that. It will be week to week until Drones falls apart or if there is an injury. Just my take on it, could be wrong.
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One thing I listened to today that made me sad was someone on the HokieHangover podcast pointing out....in 14 games we haven't over performed once. We haven't played above what our expectations are ever. We've held our ground in our weight class a couple times and we've underperformed a whole lot of times. I think that's a more significant of an issue right now, the coaches should be getting players in the position to be capable of doing something special and we're just not there.
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We haven't played above what our expectations are ever.
Playing devils advocate: We were 10 point dogs against liberty last year and won. That said, I recognize that was a scenario where the coach was checked out, so maybe that was less 'exceeding expectations' and more the opponent underachieved.
Anyways, I agree with your post. It's definitely frustrating.
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we played under expectations for the entire first half of the season.
I mean, there were a lot of people who expected us to finish last or second to last in the acc.
Regardless, the team has not once outperformed their talent level. And I get that doesn't happen frequently. But even good coaches achieve that occasionally.
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Yep, as the old saying goes, "a broken clock is right twice a day." That we at least once can't rise up and give effort punching above our weight is really disappointing and depressing.
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I tell ya, when me and my buddies walked out of the 2012 Sugar Bowl, we all said to ourselves- Liberty is going to pass us as a program in 10 years. We all said that. lol. So effing sad.
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Comments
I'm quite fucking dead inside
Yeah, progress and lots of it.
Lots of yards by the offense.
We scored a couple very legit touchdowns by sustained drives.
And remember Rutgers only allowed 2 touchdowns so far this season before today.
Progress? Where? Don't sell me that when we lost to Rutgers by 3 scores
Yep. Hard to see progress when Rutgers is running it down your throat.
When taken into account the start and some of the failings, granted I was doing some other t things and missed parts and mostly the end for dinner but what I saw was a team that kept grinding did some thing successfully and maybe missed on some risks (specifically selling out and missing the read letting a large run td).
I think we need to start thinking about quarters rather than games. Might help all out mental health. Also scoring is important but kinda fickle so let's not worry about that so much till we learn how to walk
I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion because of the current state, but I'm actually a bit encouraged. I think Pry has the right plan, I think the culture of the team is better, I think he's trying to reset the identity of the program to what it was in the 90s.
There's nothing from that stand point where I'm disappointed yet. At this point it's getting players that fit the identity he's trying to establish. We need to hit the portal and jucos hard for lineman
Oh we'll have a number of Sophomores next year with a full year's experience and S&C.
What about this years sophomores...didn't help them much
This team has 41 scholarship freshman. Of the 16 scholarship sophomores, I'd say 9ish are solid contributers.
What about not improving the players he currently has?
I really think the offense took a step forward today. We outgained Rutgers we just couldn't capitalize and score a few times when we needed to, and gifted them a score on that botched handoff right at the beginning. But credit to Bowen, we adjusted. And I think we found the direction of our offense and the QB we need to build behind moving forward. Drones opened up the run and gave us many more dimensions on O. He just needs the reps and experience with his receivers. If he starts the rest of the way I guarantee he will be pretty dangerous by the end of the season.
Less encouraging however, our run D is horrendous, and the OL is just flat awful. Big test ahead of this staff if they can recruit and develop the OL and front 7 on D.
It isn't the 90s anymore...
That's what my waistline reminds me almost every day.
identity != playbook
I like Drones over Wells. The offense looked the most coherent it's looked since Pry took over today. I wish we could've seen this with Jennings and Lane.
Defense was downright dominant for stretches, but they got gashed too many times to keep the offense in it.
I think the offense played about 1.5 good quarters today. I think the defense played about 2.5 good quarters today. It'd be really cool if we could get 3 good quarters out of each one day - especially if they could overlap for those 3. That might let us hang on for the 4th quarter.
I still think we're heading in the right direction, just slowly. I'd take the 23 hokies in a head to head matchup over the 22 hokies. Maybe I'll take the 24 hokies over a couple other P5 teams.
We haven't beaten an OOC P5 opponent since Josh Jackson's first career start. Maybe one day in the next year or two we'll get there.
Remember when college football was fun?
It is when I ignore Virginia Tech football!
No.
Legit question - has it ever been not stressful as a tech fan? We had what, a 3-5 year stretch where we smashed lower level teams with ease, otherwise, even the 10 win seasons we often like pulling teeth. Anyone who sat through the 2008 Duke game in Blacksburg would have loved the offense we played today haha
For people who are old enough to remember, 1993 through about 2000 were basically pure joy.
97 and 98 were not joy.
We did Beat Bama in the Music City Bowl. So 98 ended alright.
We only had three losses but they were to UVA, Syracuse, and fucking Temple. We also played a safety at QB to avoid burning Vick's redshirt (imagine if we had the rule where you could play in four games and keep your redshirt back then).
No offense to Nick Sorensen who took one for the team like a boss.
I remember this well. It was the Al Clark years between Druck and Vick.
I remember that game against Temple. shudders.
Nope, never happened. Just a bad dream on a Saturday afternoon.
Wasn't it that Temple loss in 1998 that begat Beamer's policy the next season to refer to each week's opponent in every practice only by number? Ostensibly to avoid looking past a team. That worked quite well too. Having MV7 behind center didn't hurt either.
I can see us using Vick in the Temple and Syracuse games, as Clark wasn't healthy yet.
The problem become the Pitt, BC, UAB game where Clark was still hurt. At that point we have A.) Vick who would have 1 game under his belt, B.) Deep Ball Dave, or C.) Sorensen.
We did sweep those 3, but that would eliminate Vick from being able to play in the UVA game. I can't begin to imagine the pain of seeing Byron Thweatt running down the sideline, but instead of just being the "Oh shit, we might just lose this game" moment to "Oh fuck there goes our perfect season" moment, not to mention the Hoo gloating for the next year.
This man speaks the truth
In my 6 decades of Hokie football, going back to the 1968 Liberty Bowl loss to ol'Miss and Archie Manning, the last few years have been the least stressful. Probably due to performance generated low expectations from Fuentes and rebuild low expectations for Pry. The Winning culture creates that in-game tension we feel until the final score shows VT-W. Unfortunately I'm calm on Saturdays now.
I do remember when VT football was fun.
Seems like a really long time ago.
We played a ton of young guys on offense. At times we all of our skill players save Tuten were second or third string and still looked competitive. Remember Drones was doing this without Lane and Jennings.
Defense was seriously hit or miss. Once Stroman went out, we ran with Jones and Phillips at safety and it showed at times. LBs still in the wrong gaps too often. We gave up 45 yards passing. And lost by three scores. To Rutgers. Ugh.
And lofton was playing hurt, noticeably limping coming on and off the field
Fuck ToP as a stat. That is all...
Dropped balls and questionable calls, and 1 that was just egregious. Those situations go our way and I truly believe we win that game. Drones is serviceable enough as a passer and big enough threat in the running game to be the starter moving forward to me.
Can you share the egregious call for me? I watched in person with no commentary and don't remember anything truly baffling from the refs
There was a holding call that while it was holding wouldn't have mattered cause Drones was far enough away and threw a 1st down pass. The next play was 3rd and ~19 and we threw a screen pass that our olinemen got in the way of.
There was also a roughing the passer call that wasn't egregious but questionable. Iflve seen that slide many times.
For me the egregious were the misses. No late hit out of bounds on that 4th down attempt.
The no call for holding on Rutgers breakaway TD run. The defensive end got tackled allowing the back to go around the end.
You can see the start of the hold at about the 15 second mark here. It pans away but the end got picked up, thrown on the ground and then the guy laid down on him.
Those are the two calls that stand out in my mind. Calling those two penalties correctly would have made a huge difference in the fourth quarter.
Ok yes, non-calls
I thought Holloway's punt return was a PF when he was hit as he was out of bounds. I watched it again and was surprised the flag wasn't thrown.
You know what else is happening today?
Alabama's offensive line is garbage. They've gone through 3 QBs already this season. And they've scored 10 points against USF.
What I mean to say is that for everyone who is dooming and glooming about where we are right now, even with a decade-long pipeline of 5 star recruits at virtually every position on offense, Alabama is struggling. Against USF.
I'm cool with what I saw today.
But we better beat Marshall.
I don't think this is a given at all. Marshall is imo better than about a third of the ACC.
I'd love to have Alabama type problems!
TBH I think if you were an Alabama fan, you would be severely disappointed about having these problems.
Can confirm. Was just at a Bama fans' house picking up our son- the dude is legit telling me how dogshit he thinks they are and he isn't convinced that Saban can do it anymore.... Like, what???
Yes, these are the same fans (and Clemson) that complain during championship seasons.
I'm old enough to remember complaining about going to the Orange Bowl again instead of the Sugar Bowl because N'awlins was so much more fun. So I can relate to problems being relative to how good the team has been performing.
Now I'm just happy to not have a dozen false starts in a game.
I remember Hokie fans complaining about Beamer touting our streak of 10-win seasons. They said winning 10 games a year isn't that big a deal and it made us look bush league for our coach to publicly praise the program for it. Ditto the bowl streak.
"You don't see [insert blue-blood program here] bragging about winning 10 games every year." The inferiority complex has always been strong.
I mean, it was frustrating seeing us continue to win 10 wins per season, but (a) be incapable of taking the next step, and (b) losing on the national stage.
Same, man. Reality check for real.
And their roster is chock full of 4/5 star kids in the 4 deep. What is surprising you. We have 3 in the first string and questions after that.
I got bad news for you...
Yeah, not feeling good about it.
I'm feeling better than Vegas apparently VT +9?!
Narrator:
They did not, in fact, beat Marshall.
Buttgers title cheered me up more than it should.
Buttgers at SHIT Stadium is just good
I made both jokes to myself and the dogs, earlier today. We all found it hilarious.
This is only year 2 of a multi-year plan. I would just like to stress patience with the staff and players.
The problem is this there no patience with current CFB...the playoff combined with realignment means there is no more room for slow growth anymore, it's a thing of the past. Stings even more when you see programs like Duke and Colorado, which have been worse programs but now are getting praise for their rapid progress.
Counter:
But... The waiting is frustrating. Never ending realignment creates anxiety. I get it.
Nebraska is not a good example of using the "slow growth" method imo
A few games into the Matt Rhule Era, it's an incomplete. Peep what he did at baylor too. Same deal
Temple too. This is what he does. He goes places, knocks down the house, and rebuilds from scratch on the land.
Mike Norvell at FSU:
3-6,
5-7,
10-3,
3-0
Tbh I think you have include the Taggart era in there as well.
He should be 2-1 for the year. The Zebra's gave FSU the win over BC by calling over 18 penalties against BC. They outgained FSU by almost 200 yards.
The problem with "patience" is other first and second year coaches are doing far better and were dealt a worse hand.
Oh, you mean like Fuente going to the ACC Championship in the first year...
On one hand, I think this was the best the offense has looked in the Pry era.
On the other hand, moral victories have to translate to actual victories at some point.
It's frustrating, but I'm here for the roller coaster ride.
Remember back under Fuente when we usually beat the Hoos even in our down years? Good times, good times...
Pry is still undefeated against the Hoos
Fu can't say that.
Fu, Corn, Vice, and Shibest were better for the offense... Truth hurts.
They also had better players. Reality today is also because of the actions of Fu, Corn, Vice, & Shibest
I would love to see Tuten and Thomas running behind Dzansi, Teller, Gallo, Smith, and Moore
Also, this still needs to be borne in mind.
We are in week 3...Starting QB? Hurt, Starting WR1? Hurt, Starting WR2? Hurt, Starting TE? Hurt
Literally every component of our anticipated starting passing attack, save 1 receiver, is out for at minimum, an indefinite amount of time.
How many points does the Tahj Bullock offense score against Rutgers?
Well at least me and GGC and Frosty's Dad got together!
![]()
Best part of the day! Great to meet both of you, the families and eat too many yummy sub sandwiches. Felt like I had eaten a walrus while walking over to the stadium.
I should have brought Frosty with me.
That's great. It's what makes life worth living. Meeting friends and making friends. Go Hokies!
So, I never got to see the response in the deleted thread. GGC on the right?
Yes. I'm in the middle and GGC on the right and Frosty's Dad on the left.
Awesomeness, thanks!
Yes wearing the shirt that says "gobble gobble"
Yeah, who's who in the pic? Inquiring minds want to know
DUDES!
Two takeaways:
1) Drones should start every game left this season. (And Wells should probably hit the portal at the end of the year).
2) Even so we still suck on offense, it's mostly on the O line but still somewhat on Tyler Bowen. We could've scored a couple more times today and had it close with better play call
What specifically with Bowen? I really don't have a problem with the game he called today.
Yeah, this was the most creative and balanced offense we have seen in Pry's tenure. If we stick with Drones and build around him, giving him those first team reps instead of Wells, I think today showed the makings of what our offense could be.
This offense looked like it needs some one like Drones running it. A couple healthy recievers (or at the very least sone cloud cover) and who knows what would have happened.
I think what we saw today is a lot closer to what Bowen wants to run than what we've been doing. Smarter football minds than mine will explain it better, but I thought it looked pretty coherent from a play calling and flow perspective. If we can get to where we are consistently executing what Bowen is calling, then we'll be in a much better position to judge his offense.
I think the knock on Bowen so far is is inability to adjust to what he's got when it's not what he wants.
I'm not even sure it's adjusting to what he has. My recollection is that last year, we had like ONE receiver who could consistently catch a ball and our top 2 RBs banged up for the season. What adjustments do you make when receivers just aren't catching many balls and you need better RB play?
Maybe you have to run the same play because the players are even LESS reliable doing other stuff?
But what you actually do is get better receivers (recruited a bunch and got several in the portal). Granted, two of the portal guys looked good then promptly got injured, but they got players. And while the running game isn't good, most of our line is VERY young. Redshirt freshmen linemen probably aren't going to be very good. Maybe we pick some up in the portal, or maybe these guys will be a lot better with another year of development and S&C.
Hopefully Bowen liked what he saw with Drones and Jennings and Lane will be healthy enough to play soon and we can get an offense going.
There were 2 turnovers, a missed FG, and 7 penalties for 75 yards - none of that has anything to do with play calling. Reverse the Tuten fumble, the missed FG, and that one ill-timed penalty (Jenkins?), and that's a 17 point swing.
I'm definitely not sold on Bowen, but the play calling today was more than good enough to win this game.
Eh there were several runs up the middle that went for no gain that we telegraphed. The play call was definitely light years better than last week but still leaves some to be desired imo.
Main issue is the OL for sure
Transfer portal to white collar work and married life? Wish he did that last year
Let's be honest, the Riot Squad was super intimidating. That we scored at all is impressive!
The offense looked intermittently competent and Drones clearly made the Rush game more effective.
If Wells sees another snap this year barring injury, Bowen should be fired.
Problem I have is I see us doing many of the things next year that I was hoping to see more formation with this year. The interior of both Lines need to be replenished- the Moore bros are depth pieces on a P5 level, sorry.
And the LB core needs to be totally refurbished--lots of new bodies--even Lawson who is a freak athlete leaves lots to be desired when it comes to basic LB play.
I see a lot of the same next year..shuffling personnel..losing games due to lack of any continuity...
Turnovers hurt today. Especially that 1st one.
There were definitely some major gaffs, but they did keep fighting.
Drones seemed to get more comfortable as the game went on. Would definitely like to see him with a healthy Lane and Jennings. I'm sure Wells wants to start next week against his old team but if he is not fully healthy I would stick with Drones.
Ftfy
Drones is QB1. Gotta be
Agreed.
Wells is the better passer but Drones running opens up the offense. That was a pretty good defense he faced today and he played well.
Now where have I heard that before for VT football.....now if we only had a decent defense to match
Honestly Wells only has a better long ball. Drones mid range and short range throws are as good or better he has a bit more touch to passes.
He's still dialing in the 15+ yard passes for sure though overthrew a bunch of them and then the one he nailed was dropped.
He had a 2nd where the reciever lost it and slowed up on the route that should have been perfectly throw.
And as has been noted, he didn't have WR1 or 2 to throw to. Once he settled in, it may have looked very different if they were in the game. Felton can be good, but I felt he was a noticeable step down from Jennings.
Buttgers, indeed.
I drove from Morehead City to Raleigh to Richmond today, with explosive diarrhea from consuming a bad oyster. The 5.5 hour drive took 7.5 with all of the bathroom stops.
Still better than watching another VT loss to a team we should, and need to, beat.
Man, bubble guts on the road is not fun...
Yep. Better than an airplane, but not as convenient as on my boat.
IMO all oysters are bad oysters. Virtual negative leg for the poor food choice, but positive leg for powering through ;)
This is a significantly worse take than French's thoughts on cheese
I'm with Hokiecoder on this one. If you have to put a bunch of tabasco sauce on something to make it palatable, it is not a good food.
You get good, fresh oysters, no need for add-ons. Just a spritz of lemon and down the hatch.
Chincoteague oysters for the win.
Oysters are the food of the gods
We all ate 2 dozen oysters each on my bachelor while drinking $1 Abita's watching a show about buildings blowing up while an old man played classic rock on his guitar.
Filet Mignon is the food of the gods.
Oysters are for people too lazy to clean the dirt off worms, with the thrill of food-poisoning roulette if you get a bad one.
They're the gateway drug for blowfish.
Who puts Tabasco sauce on oysters? Maybe a splash of lemon juice or vinegar if anything, but that's it.
I would have to think that oysters are great for those who used to pick their nose and eat it growing up. The texture must bring back so many fond memories.
Raw oysters are bad. Flash fried, hard to find anything better
put em on a fresh hoagie roll with some aoili and tomato
Haha thank you. Raw oysters are freaking delicious. These were full of pea crabs too, though I guess they didn't give me good luck. This is the first time I've gotten sick off of them and my friend had at least 30, without getting sick.
I am not a huge fan of lemon on them, I prefer a tiny bit of horseradish and drop of hot sauce and make sure I when I shuck them that I leave all of the saltwater in them.
I'll be getting another 100 of them next week when I get back down to Morehead.
Had this experience approx. 30 years ago and I have since sworn off (edited) raw oysters forever. I also was on the road however traveling (from New Bern to Blacksburg) with a fairly large group which made it even more miserable.
I rank raw oysters just barely above UVA and UNC.
Dude, there's nothing better than fresh fried oysters 🦪
Agreed. Fried are fine and enjoyable.
Raw, not so much. imnsho
I had a similar experience with mussels.
You never forget that experience. Also, your body never forgets.
I like fried oysters, but have no interest in raw ones.
Bad seafood is the absolute worst in the food poison game. The worst.
Oysters -- the new Cake/Pie debate.
I am very pro-Oysters, especially from the Pacific Northwest.
Oysters come from the Chesapeake bay. West coast Oysters look like small shoes. Big o y stars are crap. Small Oysters raw, with whatever your heart desire for a touch of flavor. But for God sakes , don't cover up the flavor of the oyster.
There really isn't too many things better than fresh fried oysters
So, in pre-game posts someone asked if we would rush for more than 3 yards? We gained 129 on the ground. We also outgained our opponent in total yardage which means that we pretty much shot ourselves in the foot. Pretty sure this is progress at the micro level we just need more of it at the macro level. We'll get there but just have to trust Pry's process. The culture is better and something just feels more pure and overall better with Pry than Fuente.
We better stick with Drones going forward. Was way better running. Rolling out the pocket with the short passing game looked good at times. A few less dropped balls and not missing the FG and we probably put up 27. Not great, but not terrible against a decent defense.
Our problem now (in addition to lack of talent in some positions and lack of depth) is that we are just losers. And I don't mean that to be cutting. We have been losing for so long, I think we are used to it. At 21-16, will all the momentum, I never felt we had a chance to win. Just so used to losing these games. Think the players are there too. We have more talent and a lot of youngsters playing. Need to develop some more players and get more talent, but also need to just win a few of these games to get over the top. Hopefully we get there by next season. Take lumps with the kids now and build for 2024 and 2025.
Oh, and Tech fans were way louder than Rutgers ones. Really good turn out at the stadium.
I too couldn't help but noticing all the youngsters that have been playing. That has got to be a silver lining of sorts. Upside is they are getting valuable experience. Coaches can actually recruit, with truth, that they can offer early playing time, if deserved. Downside is they are putting together tape for transfer portal.
I don't honestly know at what point in the season you say fuck it and just get the ones with promise more reps.
Drones is better for what Bowen wants to do.
Otherwise its shaping up to be another season from hell. Whatever decent players we had appear to be hurt.
well better for what Bowen HAS to do this year.
The fumble may have been my fault. Go to the game with a friend of mine from Tech, Scott, and his girlfriend. These are the texts from me to my wife based on the conversation Scott and I had at the start of the game.
"We get the ball first. Scott say [sic] we go 3 and out. I say if we hold onto the ball. We fumble on the second play."
"Rutgers TD on next play."
In unrelated news AT&T commercial had a person with a VT shirt and the "Terrordome" in it. Well done AT&T
saw this, love it.
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We're exactly where we knew we'd be if we got the injury bug.
It sucks to watch but it's reality until we can build depth fortunately we've got a lot of young guys getting time. Unfortunately they're clearly not ready.
My only red flag will be if Wells starts another game this season and Drones is healthy.
The positive:
1. Offense looked much more cohesive despite having two key players out. I'm not sure Drones is better than Wells, however the offense is certainly more cohesive/productive with Drones taking the snaps.
2. The defense, minus a few plays, played an outstanding game. I like the growth we are seeing as the weeks progress.
3. The team, despite being down early, never quit playing. I think Pry is laying down a great foundation for the type of culture VT is used to having.
4. I thought Bowen called a really good game. He seems to be trying to evolve and make adjustments. Sometimes I think the opposing coordinator has his number, but I appreciate that he is, seemingly, working to make chicken salad out of the shit he has (I'm mostly speaking about the OL).
The negative:
1. These slow starts... We spot the other team 3 scores every game. It's not good. We start the game with the jitters and seemingly woefully unprepared (we still have a ton of youth). Would love to see us put 4 quarters of football together.
2. Tackling... huge issue IMO. I like how aggressive the team is, but damn, we still can't tackle. And honestly, this goes back to the Bud years.
3. Horrible clock management in the 4th. Why is it that every VT offense, going all the way back to Stiney, absolutely refuses to move quickly late in the game when we still have a chance? We took the play clock down inside 10 with that stupid no-huddle, look to the sideline play call situation (I HATE that as well) on almost every play in the 4th. Just move quickly and you give yourself a chance. Why are we so adverse to trying to win games when a win is in reach?
4. Not that it mattered in the end, but why chase the points with that 2 point conversion?
Bonus:
I think I'm seeing some good seeds being planted with Pry and Co. But damn, it is really difficult some weeks. I'm not sure there are more than two winnable games on the schedule (Wake & UVA. And even those will be a challenge). So if Pry finishes year two with 6 total wins, he is going to lose a ton of goodwill he has built with the fanbase (I'm not suggesting that is warranted). Any momentum he may have had will mostly become stagnant if he can't find 4-5 wins by seasons end (again, I'm projecting onto the broader fanbase here). I really like Pry. I think he is a magnificent fit in Blacksburg, but sometimes it is difficult to see what he's trying to do.
Thinking about it, I don't think this team has played 4 good quarters under Pry yet.
The fumble was a terrible start, followed by a missed FG... Definitely not a good start, but also a little flukey.
I think this is an issue throughout the sport, not just a VT thing.
Curious - what would you prefer we do? Are there any teams that have a system you like?
It's the right play IMO - Score is 16-21. There's three possible outcomes:
The downside of missing a 2pt conversion is basically the same as the upside of making an extra point.
Less live practices means worse tackling, it's bad everywhere and every fab wants it to be better. Some one will make a fortune if they figure out how to improve tracking with out live drills.
Yea, I originally had this in my comment, but removed it. I think oases tackles are a byproduct of less live practices, fear of targeting flags, and changes in defenses (in response to the spread/air raid/tempo). Not suggesting the trade off (for player safety) isn't worth it, but I think there likely is a connection.
This is true, but only in these low scoring rock fights that we play in. If you're in a shootout you kick the xp because you don't know how many more scores there will be, and more than likely you'll want that point later on.
But both 2pt conversion and 4th down decisions should be dictated by the likelihood of converting. It completely varies for different teams in different situations. Go if you're pretty sure you're going to get it, otherwise game it out
To me this says the coaches know they need to scheme us to success. We can't just out talent if they call a good defensive play. So, in that case, you waste less time checking at the line than you do getting stuffed/throwing a pick/etc
Yeah, I think the point of lining up before the play call is to see how the defense is aligned and then adjust the play accordingly. That being said, there needs to be a wrinkle they can use to up the tempo.
I wish they picked up the pace at the end of the game as well.
This was the first game where I really noticed the new clock rules. Without stopping for first downs that clock was moving fast. It made me think that a run based offense might be the right approach. Get up early and drain that clock.
Went to the game and watched it devoid of any commentary. Some points of emphasis and some questions:
* that very early fumble+td was absolutely killer. Just brutal
*Drones seemes.to move the ball well, but in the stands we wanted him to tuck it and run a little earlier than when we he was deciding to. Seems he could have taken an easy 4 yards but was looking for a throw and wound up getting 1 instead.
* Felton HAS to catch that ball. Just brutal
* end of half sequence killed us. Bad punt, give up a td with seconds left and then Rutgers had the ball again coming out of half, woof
* i thought it was too early for the offense to go for two
*Lofton was playing hurt, looked gimpy.
* i was confused on two rutgers tds: firstly was there an actual angle to justify overturning the call on the field for the end of half td? If so nothing was shown in the stadium. Secondly on the long run on 3rd and short at 21-16 -- did the refs miss a blatant holding/bitb on the edge? It looked egregious to me in real time and on the replay and i didnt understand it.
* that long run td by RU at 21-16 broke this team and most of the VT fans
*The roughing the passer penalty on us was absolutely brutal for that drive too
On the Rutgers touchdown, it was blatantly obvious he was in. Not sure what the ref was looking at, he never came close to stepping out before breaking the plane inside the pylon.
Lofton impressed me, could not tell at all on TV he was hurt.
I didnt think the guy stepped out, but there was zero angle shown in stadium the the ball broke the plane. Looked like one of those where the player got the feet through the endzone but maybe the ball never broke the plane in bounds. Had no idea what they were actually reviewing and it took a few years for them to come to a conclusion so i was curious what was actually being reviewed -- thanks!
Adding one more
* that train horn to manufacture noise in stadium is ANNOYING and awful
The 2 people sitting to my right absolutely wanted to shoot a bazooka into wherever that horn was coming from.
That and the goddamn scoreboard videos and music was so fucking loud! I was going deaf!
I noticed the scoreboard was showing "live shots" during the game that were definitely pre-recorded from earlier in the game. Student section doing the third down hand thing when they werent, etc
It was absolutely a block in the back on Ru's possession that would have put them back in third and long.
With the first fumble and following 1 Play TD I groaned and feared the worse.
With some success in the following offensive series that made some yards. I saw they didn't let it get to them and I was encouraged.
Gotta admit, Drones kinda brought to mind Jerod Evans at times. Saw some improvement, but soooo far to go.
He'd have had 50 more rushing yards if he just bailed if his first read wasn't there. So not quite Evans.
Drones mobility and ability to throw on the run is going to be what is needed given how bad the OL is. Don't need a QB with a great deep ball as I don't think any QB is going to get a chance to throw a deep ball much this year.
Although the one great deep ball Drones threw was dropped. Gotta make that catch man!
I honestly don't know what to think. QB play and O-line was better today. Except for a couple of blown plays, the run defense was OK. Every other part of the team was OK to good, but had some blunders today. It all added up to a bad score.
Some silver linings:
Splitting the long runs (> 10 yds) from the others, VT's defense gave up:
If VT can get a little more consistent there, the VT D will be fine.
Drones is better QB than Wells. He has a much quicker release, picks up on matchups to exploit, can extend a play, and is better under pressure. He has some major limitations, bad deep ball and struggles with the RPO game.
But, those blunders today were numerous and bad. Some of it was flukey (like Moore's 14 yd punt), but some is systemic (run D misses). Fix the systemic and this team will show growth from year 1.
Allowing 4 yards per carry on runs less than 10 yards isn't good... Our run defense is bad so I'm not sure that's a silver lining.
It's not great, but it's not bad. And if Rutgers didn't have those long breaks, they don't get 4 TDs either and have less than 200 yards of total offense. Rutgers could not sustain drives.
That said, the rush defense is definitely the most frustrating aspect of this team right now. And unfortunately, those long backbreaker runs will likely continue for the season.
This was the big sense in the stadium too. Big Break-But -Dont-Bend energy from our defense. Except in years past it was sell out to stop the run and pressure the qb and trust the dbs to make plays, now it's cross the fingers and hope the run defense doesnt bust
Bowen called a better game for Drones than he ever has for Wells
Keller stood out in a good way
Mose is going to be a baller, he had that wheel route covered like very few would
Lawson just needs more game time because when he's on he's on so just get him more acquainted with the position
Lane and Jennings were missed
We need to get the ball to Tuten in space!
I like that we see separation from the WRs purely from their route running
Chaplin stands out in a good way
TE Gosnell had a couple "blocks" that made some nice ribs happen, so he is at least getting in the way of defenders and slowing them down
Delane should have had that ball, it hit him in the chest
Year 1 in a 6 year build. Hopes aren't high this season or next. Need transformative improvement in Recruiting that will lead to incremental improvement over time during the season.
Agreed. Scheme and S&C and experience all are tools toward success but can only carry you so far. We need a step change in Jimmy and Joes.
I like Pry's investment in relationships. That is certainly one piece of the recruiting puzzle. Also and obviously more NIL $ can only help.
What else is needed? Where should the first change be made? More resources in recruiting (headcount)? Younger and/or big personality recruiters who can relate better to recruits?
More focus on the portal?
I am probably only stating the obvious with the questions. But, the recruiting results over the last decade by and large have been perhaps the toughest pill to swallow.
Our offense looked better because Drones is more sure of himself than Wells. He might not always make the correct read, but he's all in on the decision when he makes it, whereas it's like Wells second guesses himself throughout every play. That alone made the rushing offense and short yard passing look a lot better.
Our depth sucks, we know this. We wouldn't be shocked that any P5 school is able to dominate entire quarters against us when we are playing with a bad G5 roster. There's a healthy number of players here who I'm not sure get a scholarship at any other meaningful program, and it's going to take time to cycle through it all.
In the meantime, we are a bad team with players who make uncoachably bad mistakes throughout games. I'm not sure we win another game this year. At this point the only thing that matters is how well we recruit over the next 30 months. If it doesn't turn around soon, we are so bad that Virginia Tech football probably never recovers. You cannot win without talent, and right now we don't have a lot, and we are again seeing the same old refrain of some of our better commits flipping elsewhere. Not a great sign
Yeah, it's hard to know how much to pin on the coaches when so many of these guys are just not great at playing the game of football.
And eight people who have been listed as starters are out.
Yeah, that too.
Fuente really fucked us. And not firing him sooner set us back a decade. I think Whit probably wanted to make a change after 2019 but Sands wouldn't let him because it was too expensive. The huge contract extensions have proved to be fatal. We gave ourself our own death penalty
I think you mean 2020? The 2019 team wasn't bad.
I mean, I wanted him (or at the very least, Cornelsen) gone after 2018. 2019 was saved by Hooker but by then it was abundantly clear that the offense we hired him for was never materializing. The longer we held on to him the worse the damage was going to be. Surely Whit knew this. We ended up keeping Fuente et al about 3 years too long imo
Yep. Should've been fired after that infamous Duke game. That mistake just gets more and more costly.
I'm not sure if administration doesn't care about football, but I am sure that they don't care enough.
I knew this would be a multi-year rebuild, but it's 1.25 years into that, and I'm not feeling great this team turns a corner next season. A bowl in year 3 felt attainable before Pry was hired, but I don't know now. Drones was improved over Wells, so that's a positive. But it just feels like the entire assistant staff sans Mines needs upgrading.
This staff has to attack the portal hard this off-season. OL, DL, LB are the priorities. Still major concerns with the coaching/development with this staff and if they can recruit and develop the talent we need to turn this thing around. Was also pleased that the offense seemed to have a turning point yesterday and Drones should definitely be the starter. If they trot Wells back out, notwithstanding injury, I will turn the tv off.
Like Pry a lot and he certainly wins the off-season. But the talent development and coaching aspects are leaving a ton to be desired.
In regards to the offense, happy they got more creative and opened things up yesterday. But infuriating that they chose Wells to start the season after him looking great with a non contact jersey and throwing against air all spring and camp. That was just not a fair way to evaluate both of these QBs.
We talking about practice?!!
Can't disagree...
Looking at the scholarship numbers yesterday was eye opening to me. Nearly half our current scholarships (41/85) are going to freshman.
If you work backwards - assume that we get ~25 freshman per class, and half pan out, that means ~12 per year work out, which basically means 4 years to get a decent two-deep.
You can argue this is not a good strategy in the transfer portal/pre-super conference era (and I am very open to that argument), but this is Pry's plan, presumably the one he pitched Whit & co when being interviewed. We're in it for a bit - maybe not because we need to be, but because Pry thinks it's the best path forward.
I hope he's right.
I'm pretty okay with the defensive staff? Anyone you're unhappy with?
I think Pry pitched to Whit a four-year plan like you mentioned, which is why he is on record saying 2025 should be when they have the roster where they want it. He wants to rebuild relationships in high schools in VA and the greater footprint and build the program that way, and supplement through the transfer portal to patch holes as needed. Truth be told, I think we needed to be even more aggressive in the transfer portal than we have been (especially OL and DL). But I don't think he can go full in on that direction because it could burn bridges again in the high schools if players are processed out in favor of transfers. I think it is a really interesting argument/debate whether Pry going back to Beamer's high school recruiting strategy is a good idea vs. going in heavy on the portal in this new era.
I think we need to be extremely aggressive in the portal this offseason with OL and the D front 7. We will be in year 3 of 4 of Pry's plan, and the DL depth is absolutely frightening next year. Plus factor in an OL that is arguably one of the worst in all of FBS.
This is my concern - Pry is not going to be aggressive enough in the portal in the trenches and the staff is going to run out of time. We all know Pry is safe regardless after this year, but I think many in the program were looking to some signs of progress in the win column. That is really in doubt at this point (with Drones potentially a silver lining for the offense, but will it be enough). Another really bad year I think will be a disappointment, and if we can't make a bowl in year three (2024), I think this staff will run out of time and patience from donors and the fan base.
I think the idea is to build your 2-deep as much as possible through recruiting and development, and then plug gaps with the portal. I think the is the only sustainable way to build a roster. You can't realistically expect to just go get an entire OL in the portal every year.
At this point, I just don't trust Pry and Whit to execute whatever plan they've come up with. This opinion might change over time, especially as Pry grows in the role, but I am just lacking faith right now, much more so in Whit than Pry. It's hard to trust Pry because he's learning on the job. Whit's been bumbling around with football since he took over. His best (and only?) excellent football move was hiring Fuente, everything else has been just so blah to me.
To put it nicely, it's a staff that feels more suited for G5, not P5 based on experience. Marve has definitely shown some consistent growth though.
Funny enough, Pry mentioned that out of all his assistant hires (up until Crook), Mines is the only one he didn't know personally and conducted interviews for. And I think we all agree that was a slam dunk hire. I really wish he would have done that for more positions on the staff/might have to reevaluate and do that at some point in the future.
Agree on Whit - I think the evidence suggests heavily at this point that football just isn't his strength and he relies heavily on Ballein...who just wants to do everything the way Beamer did back in the day. Enter Pry.
That's because Fontel isn't a g5 coach, he was a FCS coach duh. /s
Yes he was at an FBS program when we hired him.
Like it or not, This is the norm in coaching. People just hire other people they've crossed paths with before.
This is the norm in business overall tbh. I know when I have an open position the first people I reach out to are the people that have worked for me before. I know what I am getting and what that person can do.
Yeah, the "*insert X coach* only hired his buddies" is so obnoxious because it ignores how college football hiring works and acts like we're an outlier when we're not. The "Fuente didn't fire his buddy" talking point was legit, but for hires most staffs will have worked together or are friends in some capacity.
I've been at my current company for over 30 years. Every single position I 've ended up in was because someone who knew me and my skillset said "Hey- come work for me". I've had several high up in the company mentors/'rabbis' and over time decision-making folks learn who knows their stuff and who doesn't- and who is willing to speak up when there's an issue instead of taking the 'safe route' and not saying anything to rock the boat or not being willing to make a decision(or at least recommendation) based on experience and common sense.
Genuine question - what has Whit not done that you would like to see? He's upgraded facilities and increased the staff purse. Do you feel these things just didn't happen fast enough, or is there something else you think he should be doing?
It's a very macro argument for me, I'd like him to oversee a football program that's consistently ranked in the top 25. He's fallen woefully short of that.
Whit has had one foot out the door for several years now. It's no secret he is looking to leave. perhaps not wanting this job is affecting his performance?
First I'm hearing of this?
Is this bc Sands blocked him from firing Fuente in 2020?
Poorly kept secret within Merryman. /he is bouncing for the first decent job.
At one time I heard rumblings he was in contention for the ACC commissioner job. Interesting he may be looking to move. He's done good things for athletics overall, but really fallen flat with football.
He's overrated. I said it. Can't manage the football program- which is all that matters- ultimately can't deliver a national title in anything- something literally every other school can do. Stanford wins 10 of them a year, UVA wins about 1 a year - oh its so impossible. Anyway- he's overrated. Well spoken, nice guy but meh. VT can do better
If Whit wants to bounce then sure, some jobs are a job and not a dream job. But his job right now needs to be to make VT an attractive position. We had a G5 AD that didn't matter because we had one of the best coaches of all time, then we brought in some one that is known for bring in money. We are slightly out of the G5 mentality, so our next AD needs to be a big time P5 AD. It's the progression we need. If we did that 10 years ago it would have been a mess. But now we need to take that next step to become a real P5 Athletic Department.
This is kind of like a steakhouse that has great appetizers, wine list, and service. But the steak sucks.
Confirmed Whit Babcock is a tapas bar.
Funny story - my wife and I were looking at some apartments several years ago and the property manager mentioned the new tapas bar nearby as an attraction. I thought I heard her say topless bar. My facial expressions I'm sure looked wildly confused for several minutes.
So how long did you live there before you realized there was no topless bar?
Well that job ain't coming around anytime soon unless he can manage to turn the VT football program around.
Why the hell would any school that would be considered a 'decent job' take a guy who has overseen the absolute destruction of the moneymaker of a Power 5 school? Especially when that moneymaker was rattling off 10 win seasons and frequent major bowl appearances right before he was hired?
I'm sure UVA would love him if they had an opening. Not sure you would consider that a "decent job" though.
No way would UVa trust him to keep the basketball program at a high level
Correct- Whit would somehow reduce their Nike deal, and he would play hard ball with a hall of fame coach in Bennett in terms of salary.
The only reason a lot of those changes happened was because Fuente strong armed him into them by flirting with Baylor...if Football was a priority, those things should've happened earlier.
Are recruits and portal guys really going to continue to come to tech? Jump on a sinking ship? There will be questions regarding can this staff coach them up. Pry can charm, but can he and his staff coach? I so wanted him to be the guy, but I don't see progress.
Coaching them up, at least on offense, is that we lost Glenn and Rudolph. Consistency in coaching staff probably helps with player development.
And our O-line is YOUNG. Well, and as someone loose pointed out, 41 of our players are freshmen. That's about half the team. There's a reason freshmen don't usually start, and on O-line sophomores don't usually either. Turning over our roster has some good points, but it's hard to win with a very young team.
VT is mired in 10 years of mediocrity at best because we think we are unicorns. Most programs turn over coaches ever year. It's not some weird phenomenon to lose assistants. They want to move up too if they want to be head coaches. We also aren't the only young team in the country or the only team with new players. It's VT's mentality around it that is the issue.
But this goes back to your donor argument, have any of the donors told Whit that losing to Rutgers was bad and if he needs payout money just ask? FSU might still be paying Oregon for hiring Taggart. If you want to get in those situations the money has to be there.
I know for a fact that donors told Whit to fire Fuente after the home loss to liberty. Point blank. Pry will be in deep shit if he loses to ODU again and is not a 10 win team too. The donors are sick of losing to G5 virginia schools. Sad thing is - if we played JMU this year they would murder us.
JMU is just more committed to football than VT is - VT lost their commitment to football when Steger left. Sands is the head of the snake and he's not going anywhere, unfortunately. I think it would be prudent to just expect our football program to languish in mediocrity for the next couple decades at least.
Find me another team in a P5 conference with 5 redshirt freshmen in the two deep on their OLine. And even if you do, if that's just an excuse, I expect them to have outstanding performance compared to ours. And youth matters a lot more in some positions than others. The way I read French's posts about the OLine, it just doesn't seem like there is a substitute for experience and years in the weight room. So yeah, a TEAM may be fairly young and be successful, but your offense is more likely to suffer if your line is very young more so than if you have young receivers and a young QB.
And yes, teams may turn over a coach every year, but it's probably not likely that it's the coach at the same position every year. We've had three offensive line coaches in three years.
I said we were bad this year and that is OK. I said that. But not to burst your bubble, we aren't the only team with second year players in the 2 deep on offense. We aren't
I didn't say second year players in the 2 deep. I said 5 redshirt freshmen out of 10 in the two deep for the OLine. The part about it being specifically the OLine is the important distinction there.
Teams with that many guys that young on your OLine isn't going to get good play from their line.
The old coach scared Hudson and Nester off. Else we aren't having this conversation. I don't have time to research OLs across the country but I highly doubt we are a unicorn there either.
IIRC it was another player that was the issue here. Of course that was all rumor and innuendo so nothing was confirmed.
I mean, Hoffmans father and one of nester's/Hudson's fathers (I forgot which) continued the players' dispute on Twitter. Not like the dirty launder was kept in the locker room.
Now that everybody seems to agree it was a complete rebuild, let's talk about exactly what that really looks like and the progress that has been made on upgrading the roster/program:
QB - Fuente left Burmeister (SDSU backup WR) and Knox Kadum (we stole from JMU, then he went D2), and a guy who last played QB when he was 16 before being relegated to special teams at ATM.
Pry brings in Wells, Brown (SEC backup, but experience as a starter), and Drones (high 4 star that fits the system). This is about as much as we could hope for, under the circumstances. We've also got Pop, with Delvi and a good 25 recruit lined up.
RB - We had 13 RBs, but not a single one was P5 caliber. Insert Tuten.
WR - Fu's 2 "studs" can't crack the 2 deep (Lofton is only playing due to injury, Jones moved to defense). Insert Jennings, Lane, Felton. Clearly the best 3 players on offense.
LT - Barring Silas Danzi's miracle 6th year of eligibility that nobody saw coming, we had 1 LT on the roster. True freshman farm boy Xavier Chaplin. Probably the best lineman on the team, but very raw and a project who is showing progress.
C - We didn't have a center behind Johnny Jordan, who also got an extra year unexpectedly. That's why they moved the elder Moore, who clearly has never snapped, and it shows (see bouncing shotgun snaps). His backup is Hollifield, who never played OL, much less center before VT. Clearly there is no confidence in him.
OG - You have 4 freshmen competing for a spot otherwise held by a 26 year old former missionary who had to go to junior college bc he had no other P5 offers. This is after Hanson, who had his limitations, is out for the season.
RT - Parker is average at best. Literally nobody behind him.
Yet Fu let Hudson and Nester - our 2 highest rated linemen in 15 years transfer bc their parents didn't get along with Hoffman's parents. Now they have the highest grades on WVU/Louisville.
We brought in Frady, and are trying to develop some young guys, but this is the biggest lift on the team. Especially after Rudolph didn't target the portal and we missed in the kid from App State.
Now for defense:
DE - Not a single P5 DE - Insert APR. Best player on the whole unit.
DT - Not a single P5 caliber DT. When Pry first arrived, he encouraged Fuga to transfer because "we couldn't win with his limitations." Now he starts and is team captain. Great Hokie. Mediocre player.
Pollard, Kendricks, Pene, all undersized. None of them would start at another P5 school. This another area that is crippling our ability to be competitive. But we're recruiting our asses off on the DL.
LB - literally not a guy on the team with experience as Mike linebacker. So we move 196lb Tisdale and a bunch of former safeties and then wonder why we can't fit gaps. The miss/lack of patience with Stone Snyder is looking questionable, but an effort was made there. This will be another off-season portal target.
DBs are good, but backups at all 5 positions are literally freshman or converted WRs. Rebuild in progress.
So, we've brought in Jennings, Lane, Felton, Tuten, Canteen, Wells/Drones, and APR. These are undoubtedly the best players on the team. Next portal targets will be the lines and linebackers.
All of this makes no mention of the lack of facilities, support staff, and all the malpractice discussed in the ESPN article.
So, clearly, the rebuild is in progress, but this is an across the board heavy lift, and now our starting RG, TE, WR1, WR2, QB, LB, S are all injured and didn't play. And we wonder why we lost?
Insert "Rome wasn't built in a day, the night is darkest before the dawn," or whatever other cliche you choose.
Thank you for bringing up all of this depth into 1 place. We did a lot. And I want to know from the people who say we did not hit the portal hard enough for OL, do we really know that? Maybe we didn't, I just don't know. But does anyone have actual intel that we were not trying to get OL players and anyone who was any good, understandably did not want to come to a complete rebuild situation?
Analyzing portal recruitment for a like analyzing offensive play calling. If the coach calls a play and it doesn't work, we all assume he made a bad play call without really having any idea what was called.
Some people assume because we didn't get OL it means we didn't try to get OL, and if the coaches just "get more aggressive in the portal", whatever that means, then we'll magically get a bunch of linemen. And yeah, I know Duke did it, but that's a sample size of one. I don't think it's that easy at all.
We're going to have to start playing a numbers game. It's easier to bring in numbers on OL in the portal and hope 2-3 of them really work out than play the long game and hope high school talent develops in 4-5 years. The staff and program doesn't have that sort of time at this point.
I think you have to heavily slant your NIL toward the trenches since those positions are the hardest to recruit and develop and try to bring in numbers each cycle in the portal.
Rutgers also had 3 of 4 of their starting DL yesterday that are portal transfers. This is happening more and more. And it's easier to recruit the portal in a lot of ways - those guys have been through the whole official visit drama and process. It's more of a business decision - visit, meet with coaches, talk playing opportunity/scheme fit, NIL dollars. Whit has gone on record saying he thinks we can be competitive with NIL rather than facilities and other arms races, so why not try to capitalize on this now? The worst we could do is try and fail.
The problem with this is that Johnny Jordan sucked too. Can't play dead in a western. Hoffman was OK- not Jackie Slater either. The portal is great- if the guys you bring in can play.
What I can't quite wrap my head around - there is very limited top OL talent in the portal, and certainly moreso in high school, so the average team doesn't have great OL talent. But somehow we are well below average on OL. Did we just get super unlucky? Bad evaluations? There are G5 and FCS teams with better OL play that we have right now.
2020 & 2021 recruiting classes. Hudson and Nester transfers. Hanson bad eval and retirement. We have two upperclassmen left.
Echo what other Ben said above, but also can't ignore the fact that the remaining upperclassmen have had 3 OL coaches in 3 years. Last year, they tried (and failed) to implement a complete new blocking scheme.
Not a great formula for success.
Yes totally forgot to mention that as well. OL is a position where you really need coach continuity. OL coaches don't move around very often and it's not uncommon for new head coaches to retain the OL coach. Parker and Kaden haven't been developed well because nobody has stuck around to develop them.
Not enough numbers- plain and simple. You know that OL 1. take time to develop and grow strength wise and 2. often don't pan out. So numbers, numbers, numbers... that's how you find a Sergio Render. Christian Darrisaw, etc. You have to have enough kids in the room to compete and pick the ones that can actually play from a larger pool of choices.
There's a reason Elko taking 13 portal offensive lineman in his first two classes (not including several from the high school ranks as well) paid major dividends up front for Duke. People like to talk about coach turnover but fact is we just haven't brought in enough quality lineman to compete. We had ample opportunities under Pry to bolster the position instead of spinning our wheels with guys who haven't demonstrated they can exceed at this level, and we're paying the price for that neglect.
Is what you said in response to me saying our OLine is very young in a comment above, but here you are saying the OLine needs time to develop and grow strength wise.
I think it's possible to have a nuanced view:
The Duke comparison keeps coming up:
Fair enough, and while going out and getting all Americans would be amazing, they have to be able to find some linemen better than what we've got.
Totally agree
I've been thinking about who is the future on the line:
Xavier Chaplin (only current starter that looks like he belongs)
Aidan Lynch
Brody Meadows
Layth Ghannam
Tommy Ricard
*Braelin Moore (hard maybe, needs to fundamentally improve)
Potential Backups:
Parker Clements (maybe)
Kaden Moore (maybe at guard)
Johnny Garrett (if he can stay healthy)
Doubtful Future/No future:
Johnny Dickson
Hunter McClain
Unknown:
Gabriel Arena
Hannes Hammer
Lance Williams
Web Davidson
Bob Schick and Frady could be decent 1 year depth players next season, but not necessarily spots we should hold if there are game changers in the portal.
Overall I'm glad the roster is young and we're doing what we need to have a really good line in 2026. But if we want to be decent there over the next two years, we're going to have to hit the portal hard
Pry, when competing on the trail with Elko should sell the kids on actual people being in the stands that aren't visiting fans. Which I am sure he does. He could also tell them that no matter what they do at Duke, the hoops team is more important.
Pry and Elko aren't pursuing the same players
Looking at the guys that VT was allegedly in the mix with:
You can make the argument that Pry/Rudolph should have been more aggressive in the portal in the '22 off season. You can be upset that we lost Everett, Pregnon, or Muskrat to bluebloods. You can be frustrated that we haven't developed anyone on our roster yet. But 'we're getting out-recruited by Duke' isn't a legit narrative.
A little bit of a misnomer as some of the Ivy League kids are graduate transfers, meaning they already have a degree in hand from an elite institution.
I think that furthers my point - a Harvard degree plus a VT degree is fine. A Harvard degree plus a Duke degree is way more valuable. Maybe I'm biased by my experience in the MBA prestige-chasing world, but stacking degrees from elite universities might be the best way to fail up in life.
Regardless - Pry didn't go after these guys. Maybe that's a scouting miss, maybe that's a culture mismatch, either way, there's a clear a trend of Elko looking for a very specific profile of player in the portal, and it's very different from what Pry targeted.
My follow-on question would be to ask what post-graduate degree program they are in a Duke and compare how many VT actually offers or is elite at before assuming Pry didn't chase them.
If the program is not here for a few then that would be a waste of resources to chase them.
If they are not actually playing at Duke, then they might not have been playing here and Duke is wasting time and resources on them.
I'd think having a diploma with "Duke" written on it may be a bigger selling point than having a lot of fans in the stands (unless they are an NFL hopeful that doesn't plan on graduating from wherever they go).
This is a fantastic post. Thank you. And this is why Rutgers and Purdue are better than we are. It's not about Ballein- its about the roster. It is criminal what Fu left for Pry- nothing- as you pointed out- literally nothing. But I remember the excuse that Beamer left nothing for Fuente- and I laughed it off because it was horseshit. Beamer left Fuente 2012 Alabama compared to what was left for Pry.
What Beamer left for Fuente got him almost all his Tech wins.
I don't know how it looked on TV, but in person, Drones passed the eye test for me. He struggled with a couple reads on the read option, it looked like there were a few that if he had kept it would have been decent gains, and he threw 2 bad balls that I saw. One we got a PI on the underthrown ball, and the other he got picked on a helluva play by the DB where our 2 receivers knocked each other out. I saw a couple of smart 'throw it away's', and several passes that didn't quite connect, but only our guy could have gotten it.
He looked calm and confident from the nosebleed seats. I'll have to go back and rewatch the game on watchespn to see if I still feel the same way.
At the point when it was 21-3, I felt a lot of despair. In years past, that would have put the team in a dark hole and the game would have ended 49-6. But yesterday we fought back to make it 21-16. Similar story w Purdue when we were down 17-0. Years past, no shot of trying to score yet alone tie it up at 17. While we.lost both games, at least we didn't roll up in a ball and just give up. We might not have the horses currently to score 50 points or to not go down big in the first half, but there is a least some sort of light down that tunnel.
I can't tell anymore if that light at the end of the tunnel is a train about to run us down.
Outlook for our program right now:
Speaking of putting up 50, Washington St just hung 64 and are staring down the WAC after realignment. Seems like a good OC to call for a P5 job.
Didn't get to watch the game until today. Too busy tailgating at the Backyard Brawl with my entire family.
I am at the 3:39 mark of the 3rd where we just scored the TD on a Drones to Felton pass.
The score is 21-10. Take away the gifted TD on our fumble in the 1H and not miss a 36 yarder and the score is 13-14.
The oasis tackles become painful in the 3rd.
Overall the D has played decent before the missed tackle syndrome took over.
Drones should have been the starter from the get-go. If passing was the delta that put Wells as QB1 then my eyes aren't qualified to make that distinction.
Offense is doing better. Not great, as our OL SUHHHHHHH—UUUUUUKS, but I like what I am seeing. The potential is there. Like the play calling. Like what they are doing with Tuten. Need more of it.
I know they pull away but at this point I see a better team out there and am encouraged.
And.......I should have waited until after that next drive. A great drive from top to bottom with a Tuten TD. With what was stated above and the "wooda, cuda, shuda took place and we are ahead in the 4th. I'll take it.
My thoughts are that I thought Bowen called a pretty good game. We didn't score 40 points, because you can't score 40 points with shanked punts, missed chip shot FG's, false starts, holdings, etc. Way too many mistakes to score 40 on a competent DC like Schiano. But, Bowen called a pretty good game. He got WRs open down field, he got a little space for Drones with an OL that is G5 level and young, etc. It's not on him, IMO. Rutgers is just better. They were bigger up front, and didn't make many mistakes. IIRC we forced NINE punts - that's usually a win, but they were the better prepared team and made less mistakes. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Now for Marve... meh- 100% thus far. Way too many explosive plays in the run game by opponents- all opponents. So the system is broken in terms of our personnel running it- and that's coaching. And Rutgers last touchdown was total typical recent VT defense bullshit. Untouched 50 yard TD on 3rd and 1- on a basic power cut back that high schools run. We can't just hold them to 6 yards there- nah, dude has to score untouched because we can't defend a basic run play. I've said it- my theme this season is we are bad- very bad- and that's OK. If we stand pat in the off season like VT coaches are apt to do- then we are in trouble again.
That cutback is probably not happening with Peoples in there. I think it was Jones that bit so hard on the misdirection he was 15 yards to the others side of the field
Coach Preilou needs to have more than 1 guy ready. But again, that's where VT football is at the moment- not good. and that's OK. Until hard changes need to be made.
Yeah I mean our whole roster under our starters isn't good across the board. We took in a bunch of G5 guys that not only became instant starters but have a good amount of distance between them and our more senior players just the reality of the situation.
so our defense did their job?
oh
And? The defense did their job- for some of the game. We gave up 35 points and backbreaking 7.7 ypc overall though. More than 1 thing can be true. We played decent enough in stretches to flip the field for our offense- yes. But 7.7 ypc is horrid run defense. Is run defense part of the defense's "job"?
Does anyone have the explosive rate for the Rutgers game and for the season. It does seem like we're bad at limiting explosive plays.
just FTR, I wasn't challenging you. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition - and I agree, the defense is atrocious on run defense but they also get a fair amount of stops. It's a bit jekyll and hyde
I was talking to my buddy about some of the guys on defense running right past the guy with the ball in the backfield. I think that's happened at least twice - once up the gut and once our guy ran past the RB who was running behind the line before cutting up at the edge. Like a couple of our guys have zero nose for the ball. That's not coaching, that's the players. Like how much coaching is needed for "find the guy with the bill and tackle him, and really don't just run past the guy with the ball."
I'm also like that he's been making an effort to get Tuten the ball on space via the pass. Because the OL can't make a hole for him to run through. It's a change that minimizes a weakness and maximizes a strength, which is the sort of thing I expect a competent OC to be able to do.
The defense just has no margin for error. The fact that we are able to get stops shows that we have players who can get the job done if they're in the right spot. We just have so many inexperienced players on the field right now that they aren't getting into the right spots. Yes that's on the coaches to fix, but it's not something they can fix in a week. If the coaching staff can clean up the back 7 on D and show general improvement vs the run, I'm good. We are still going to give up the occasional explosive play because of inexperience. However if the coaches are doing their jobs the averages should start shifting in the right direction.
If the same players are making the same mistakes in November, then that's on the coaches, IMO.
in the middle of a rewatch of what i missed (2nd half)
Drones feels very 3rd and Logan - which oddly enough makes me very comfortable assuming the d can get a little better consistently and we can settle in offensively with the tuten and felton to make the plays when needed.
This is actually a good point that I overlooked. Drones gives us way more ability to convert on 3rd and medium IMO.
I honestly hope it is Drones the rest of the way, but I have a bad feeling we are not done seeing Wells once he gets healthy.
Drones should play the rest of the way IMO, and not just because he give us a better chance to win, but because he will get much more experience since he is likely to be the starter the next couple years.
Wells is a Redshirt senior. He might have an extra covid year left (who knows) but he is not the likely starter for the next 2 years.
He does have a covid year left, so he can come back next year if he wants.
I have this feeling too, I don't know why I have this feeling its blatantly obvious that Drones is the better player for this team. If it does end up back at Wells I'm checking out for the rest of the season and I'll be boarding the first fire everybody train to misery town.
I'm with you - I've already kinda checked out on this season TBH - the team is bad (just like we all knew it would be) but I'll really be done with this staff if they trot Wells out there again. Drones very clearly is the best QB for this team. Appreciate Wells for his service and for coming in to play for the Hokies in a time of need but Drones is the better option and needs to get the experience going into the future. Plus, Wells, frankly, just isn't very good.
I was dead wrong on Wells vs Drones. I didn't think Drones running ability would be that much of an upgrade with a poor run blocking OL, and I thought his knowledge of the playbook/passing would be detrimental. But, he's clearly QB1 moving forward. I got serious Logan Thomas nostalgia. The difference is that this mostly inept offense isn't partnered with a great defense. There are games we can win on this schedule, but we have to limit explosive runs.
I'll reiterate again, I don't care about the W-L record until next year. I won't call for heads to roll until next year. This year and last year are mostly a wash on the field. Individual improvement over the course of the season is what matters. We saw Greene get some touches, Lofton has improved, Lovett, Phillips, and Woodson continue to get run. Drones is QB1 this year with 2 more years of eligibility left, idk if he's the future under center, but if he is he'll have a lot of game experience.
The other positive is I finally made it to a Chicago Hokies watch party and we had a great turnout:
Glad to see Chicago turning out? Regardless yes. This is the feel to have. There's work to do. It will be ugly, too many gaps. We will lose games we should win before we win them because experience. The institutional knowledge of how to wreck shit is not easily handed down.
New debate, would we have beaten Purdon't if Drones started over Wells?
I think yes, the offense was so pedestrian and the defense doing enough to stop them that a small improvement on offense for just a FG or two combined with the extra rest for the defense would lead to a squeaker of a W.
I'm kinda done with the "what if" games, TBH. Nothing against you, homebrewhokie, but we've been playing "what if" on TKP for what feels like the last 7 years or so and I'm just sick of it. We're bad and we lost. We've lost a lot of games. We don't have much talent. The coaching is less than inspiring. IIWII - I don't want to think about "what if"
Correct. Saturday Rutgers was better. No if ands or buts, they are a better team. They are bigger, stronger, and more disciplined. It is what it is. They completed 4 passes and beat us by 19. That's not luck or an accident. They are better. We need to face that reality. Marshall is probably better too- certainly on offense they are.
I mean, we probably also win that game if Wells/Jennings/Lane don't get injured.
The interesting question: if Bowen/Pry knew how limited Wells was, could Bowen make that drastic of an adjustment at half time?
I heard it reported that if we had a normal 20 minute half time the medical staff would not have cleared Wells to play in the second half.
The way I heard it phrased on the TSL podcast was something to the effect of 'The medical staff didn't have time to do a proper evaluation given the shortened half time break.'
The current VT twitter sentiment that Drones is a no brainer #1 and light years ahead of Wells is not true in reality. You heard what the head coach said "inconsistent" - Now I know Wells is not Montana, but the difference between the 2 doesn't match what the fans think right now.
I wouldn't say that Drones is light years better or even that he is a better QB, he just looked like a better QB in this system.
That's fine. However, they trot Wells back out there, I turn the tv off. I'm sure a lot of others are in the same boat. He ain't it, and Drones at least gives us a chance.
See, this is my thing. Drones gave us a chance against Rutgers? Not really. I think people see him run around a bit and think that he is going to be Lamar Jackson and we are going to win. That's not the case. The 2 QBs aren't much different in terms of the bottom line- production, points, etc.
Our running game was drastically different. It wasn't good and its probably not sustainable but we're talking about the best defense we've played (by quite a bit) and its the only game we've averaged more than a single yard per carry in Drones first ever start so yeah I'd say he gives us a better chance to win, probably not night and day better but its better.
Fair Point, yes. Drones was just as bad on the RPO decision's though. I was disappointed at that - maybe that's coaching.
I don't think Drones is a game changer type QB, but I think his skill set gets Bowen in his comfort zone as far as scheming and playcalling. It allows us to be a little more creative on O and give the defense more to think about. It also really helped soften up the middle of the D, and I think he was better than most thought he would be throwing. He just needs more reps. Plus, this style of offense fits the future of the QB room as well with Pop etc. waiting in the wings.
To me it's like Tahj Boyd vs Deshaun Watson. Tahj was a system fit for Morris' Clemson offense and was productive, but then Watson enters that system and is a true game breaker. Drones is much more in the Boyd mold, but he helps the offense open up and do more schematically.
For me it comes down to the mobility of Drones considering how bad our OL play is. He has the ability to extend plays that Wells hasn't shown. Do I think Wells is better passer? Yes but not by enough to counter Drones being able to turn sacks into positive runs/throws.
Not saying it's Wells fault, but the OL makes Drones the better fit for who our team is now.
Not to mention this is already a throw away year. Chances of making a bowl game are pretty much a non-existent at this point. Why not get the likely starter next year more game reps to grow into the role. Maybe if we beat Purdue I would think differently but at this point I am thinking more about the progress and how it affects next two years.
After digesting a few days and listening to the TSL pod and other reactions from the game, I have a few thoughts. Offensively, I agree with the consensus that this was Bowen's best game. He seemed to be much more comfortable and creative scheming for Drones' skill set. Drones absolutely should be the guy moving forward. Was he flawless? Absolutely not, but you can see the potential there and I think he played very well. He opens the offense up more and opens up the run game more by rolling out in the pocket/options and misdirection runs/qb run threat on the draw/and so forth.
I am somewhat skeptical about Wells' injury, and I frankly think the way this QB situation has been handled is terrible. It almost feels like this is a soft benching of Wells to see what they've got in Drones. Wells injury seems week to week and unknown (too hurt to play, but not too hurt to be available), and if Drones really struggles I guarantee he miraculously is better. Just really think this whole QB thing has been botched and handled horribly.
Defensively, I am very concerned. We just look like a soft team. I don't know if it is from practicing without live QBs and a very finesse passing game with a weak OL, or we just haven't held guys accountable, or some combination of all. But this is Pry's wheelhouse, and we have three LB coaches on staff. It's really inexcusable to have this much regression on defense. I don't know what they're thinking with some of the personnel at LB, and they're going to have to rotate Delane or Canteen over to safety. Can't roll with Jones and Mose there if Peoples and Stroman are hurt.
I am extremely concerned about the coaching chops of this staff right now, and that starts with Pry. Injuries happen, but it's up to the coaches to mitigate that. I think he will ultimately need to have some of these hard conversations he talks about and upgrade his staff if he wants to be successful. He hired a lot of comfort hires (friends), and I think he's going to need to reevaluate that. I get Dabo vibes from him, in the sense that he's got the charisma and personality to be the face of the program, but I think he's going to need good assistants around him. Looking ahead, I feel like we're going to need to bring in a true QB coach on offense that fits Bowen's style (jury still ultimately out on Bowen, but Saturday was encouraging), and I think we ultimately will need to make some changes on the defensive side. Will he be able to have these hard conversations when he needs to? Or will there be any accountability from the administration? We know he's close with Ballein and Babcock seems to be totally hands off with football.
This is a rebuild no doubt, but fans have a right to be upset with how inexcusably bad we are right now with little signs of improvement. We're going to find out a lot about Pry as a coach and program manager over the next 6 months.
I think I sort of agree:
The problem is, the staff hasn't done anything to give us confidence that they will excel when these problems are fixed.
Think we are mostly on the same page, and agree with your last sentence. Regarding Wells' injury, I don't doubt there is some injury concern there. But something seems fishy about it. It's almost like a long time ago when Grant Noel had a sudden knee injury in camp and they gave Bryan Randall the nod. Legit injury but think the severity was in question, and it was a convenient avenue to soft bench Noel and play the higher upside Randall.
If Wells is too hurt to start but not too hurt to dress and be available to play if need be, it sort of tells me they want to kick the tires on Drones and see what they've got. Especially since the TSL crowd is saying Wells is definitely out for Marshall but not sure beyond that. It will be week to week until Drones falls apart or if there is an injury. Just my take on it, could be wrong.
One thing I listened to today that made me sad was someone on the HokieHangover podcast pointing out....in 14 games we haven't over performed once. We haven't played above what our expectations are ever. We've held our ground in our weight class a couple times and we've underperformed a whole lot of times. I think that's a more significant of an issue right now, the coaches should be getting players in the position to be capable of doing something special and we're just not there.
Playing devils advocate: We were 10 point dogs against liberty last year and won. That said, I recognize that was a scenario where the coach was checked out, so maybe that was less 'exceeding expectations' and more the opponent underachieved.
Anyways, I agree with your post. It's definitely frustrating.
Trust me I thought of that game but we were underdogs because we played under expectations for the entire first half of the season.
I mean, there were a lot of people who expected us to finish last or second to last in the acc.
Regardless, the team has not once outperformed their talent level. And I get that doesn't happen frequently. But even good coaches achieve that occasionally.
Yep, as the old saying goes, "a broken clock is right twice a day." That we at least once can't rise up and give effort punching above our weight is really disappointing and depressing.
I tell ya, when me and my buddies walked out of the 2012 Sugar Bowl, we all said to ourselves- Liberty is going to pass us as a program in 10 years. We all said that. lol. So effing sad.
I don't think many teams can overperform and lose at the LOS like we are.