Fans are 🌶️ today pic.twitter.com/PMcP36FF2d— օ×ѵէ (@OX_VT) September 25, 2023
That's just some of many comments you can currently find on just about any given post from any of our coaches or teams on social media right now. The fans are pissed, and they're taking all their anger out directly at the people being asked to solve these issues.
Its just an overall terrible mood around VT athletics on social media right now, and when you go to the fan sites, its not much better.
But yeah, guy.s... don't post this shit on the coaches accounts right now. Don't be those fans. Don't be the kind of toxic fanbase that future coaches actively steer away from.
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We aren't great, but I think people fail to realize we are without practically our 4 best players (some of which were players brought in that are vast improvements from last year's players) and that our QB is unproven and has only started 2 games. We just don't have depth yet which hurts but should come with time.
We're bad, but I bet with a healthy roster, we're 3-1 or 2-2.
We also have to keep in mind that we're working with a first time HC, first time OC and first time DC...
Seriously, who signed off on that? Whit? This is the crew to right the ship and they're all learning on the fly
First time hc, oc,dc.. this is what I have been yelling. Not a fan. Whit is not a good negotiator. Who the he'll signs up for this? We were a football school. Why the he'll do we settle for this with expected bad outcomes?
We are lying below market rates for those positions, you're either looking for FCS or maybe smaller G5 coordinators in our financial position if you want someone who has already been a good OC/DC/HC.
Only because of the crazy inflation of college salaries. When Pry was hired we had the 4th highest salary pool in the ACC I believe
That 4th highest didn't even last the end of the hiring cycle.
We literally were not paying below market when they were hired. Almost all of them got from 80% to more than double what they were paid at their last job!
What is the average OC/DC salary this year for P5 schools?
The top 60 coordinators makes over 1 mil. There are ~ 130 p5 coordinators (65 teams) The upper bounds right now is ~2mil. Most make over 500k, so average is probably over a 1 mil.
So we are paying below top sixty and likely paying below average of a million.
Experience and results go into the pay as well. Someone who's been at a school for a decade is prob making more than a guy in his first 2 seasons. Think Bud Foster (worth it) at the end of his career versus a new guy.
Just wait till we're getting 40 mill less a year in tv money...Rutgers and Purdue gonna be paying their head coach 3x what we can pay
Worth noting:
Also, last I check we were top 80 in coordinator pay among public schools. I'll try to pull the data soon.
You are correct on all counts (though public/private is odd because its state dependant so PSU doesnt have to report) , thanks for clarifying
That's not 'market rate'. 'Market rate' is defined by what is paid for a given role, not what an individual earned in his previous role.
That's a bit of an overstatement to say the least - we aren't exactly paying top dollar, but we aren't paying anywhere near an FCS or G5 level according to this data as of the end of 2022. We have enough money to hire more experienced coordinators than we have currently, period. Phil Longo was only making slightly more than Bowen last year, and about the same as Darrell Dickey at A&M. Marve is making more than Will Muschamp as Co-DC of Georgia.
Curt Cignetti only made around $650k at JMU last year as head coach. Come on, we aren't broke.
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant
We are also a school who broke the bank for Buzz Williams. We absolutely have the money, it's all about the desire to spend it
Awesome so which established good OC or DC is leaving their current P5 job making as much or slightly more than than we are paying new hires to take a salary the same as they are already making. The idea that Tech can just go out and outbid for the small stable of experienced good OC'S and DC'S is laughable. This idea that Tech is in the same league either financially or pecking order to just get anyone isn't born out in nothing we have seen. Longo left for 1.25 million a season we weren't outbidding Wisconsin for him. So the next option would be for experienced OC/DC taking someone from a lower school. Would that have made people happy? So choice is first timers with upper tier P5 experience or lower tier OC/DC. I'm not sure which is better option or I would have preferred.
I don't think we can outbid anyone, but we can certainly get someone with more experience at both coordinator spots than no experience. Also you can't just look at pure average salaries because of the top 15 or so jobs with insanely inflated values really skewing the mean. Might be more insightful to look at the median salaries to get a better reflection of what the average pay looks like.
I can't find a full data set on the assistant coaching salary pool, but as of last year, only six public programs were at $7.5MM or greater for their assistants pool, and it lists Utah as 21 nationally with $5.85MM. VT's assistant's pool was $5.225MM as of last year which would probably put us around top 35 nationally at worst. Now if you look back to Fuente's last year and our pool of only $3.52MM that is way below market. But we are at least paying around a top 35-top 40 level for assistants right now and drastically overpaying for underperformance given available resources.
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw-husky-football/uw-footballs-assis...(%247.93%20million).
https://virginiatech.sportswar.com/article/2022/01/14/salary-information...'s%20coaching%20hires%2C%20click%20here.
We could have gotten an experienced P5 OC and DC for the salaries we paid at the time.
Who name potential candidates and their salaries at the time.
Here's one of my post from right after the Pry hire where I named 7 OC's we could afford (at the time):
We hired Brad Glenn didn't we? Heckendorf we could but he hasn't moved on from Arkansas state which might be a bad sign, but yes taking a lower level FBS team OC as I said to others was an option. Riley was at TCU one year and can't find his salary information. But since his next jump was to Clemson for 1.75 million not sure we could have afforded what he was asking. Denbrook left after 21 season to coach at LSU don't think we were outbidding them. Kitley yes but taking him from WKU would be taking lower tier FBS OC. Cohen was making 775,000 at Kentucky then jumped to NFL now back at Kentucky making over a million, not sure he was available. Lindgren was also making 775,000 so probably could have swung that increase but it would be close. So of that list only 1 OC was experienced at upper P5 football and within our nominal price range.
There's also the argument that we should've settled for a cheaper OL coach - Rudolph was making $700k if I recall correctly - perhaps go in for $1-1.1m for OC/qb coach, and a cheaper OL coach.
We did get Brad Glenn, but did not get the Georgia State offense.
Finally, we could have gone for an FCS OC like JMU's or W&M's - IMO the jump to FCS/G5/P5 isn't about football knowledge; it's about recruiting ability and organizational leadership. An OC from a lower level could have been supported from a recruiting aspect by hiring solid assistants (which we have done IMO). An OC should not have deal with organizational leadership (HC should own that).
The fact is, we have a first time coach with two first time play callers. Pry did not need to do that to make the numbers work. It is/was a risky proposition.
I can agree with that take. I don't agree with some who think taking an experienced P5 DC and OC was a realistic option.
I think you need to use proven instead of experienced. There is a fair amount of Corn out there. But proven P5 coordinators get a shot at HC. Those that fail (LOL) may occasionally go on the market, but they make money closer to their failed big whistle pay because they are proven. Not what we pay. Bidding wars with SEC money? also not what fan giving/tv and apparel deals support.
I'd gladly take W&M's OC right now.
And I agree with your overall take. Taking an experienced play caller from any level would have made more sense than Bowen, who had never really been an OC (outside 1 year at Fordham I think).
Are we forgetting that we paid Bud Foster over a million dollars 10 years ago? Paying a top tier coordinator is not out of the realm of possibility at Virginia Tech. We are not a poor school. We just are not an extremely wealthy school. This is a tired take
Facts matter:
https://www.nbcsports.com/college-football/news/vts-bud-foster-with-an-a...
Bud didn't make a million in annual salary until his last season. Exactly 1 million. No financial disclosures I have seen or payments in salaries have shown Tech to be a top 20 school in terms of salaries we can offer. Do you have anything that shows we are? So options Pry had were lower tier FCS or G5 DC/OC with experience of P5 coaches with no OC/DC Experience. He made a choice that may not work out but this idea that a large pool of experienced P5 OC's and DC's was just there for the bidding isn't factual.
Facts do matter. And the fact is we have, in our history, paid a coordinator a million dollars. Stop trying to frame every salary pool argument like we have no money. Whether you want to nitpick if it's through incentives or base salary is fine, but the money is there.
We didn't pay him
We paid a hall of fame DC after over 20 years of service exactly a million. Again name an experienced P5 DC and OC in 2021 (2022 season) that VT could have hired for 1 million.
Did you forget 2014?
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/12/10/7373165/assistant-college-coach-salary-bud-foster-dollar-signs
There is also a difference between salary and money earned, which includes the incentives and bonus for various goals.
It's also hard to compare 2014 and 2018 dollars to 2022 dollars. 2018 was the beginning of the explosion of coordinator salaries. Many others were in a contract and had no means to renegotiate or "double" their salaries. 2022/3 is post covid, tightening spending but also years after the explosion so those whose contracts have been re-upped got significant raises over their last cycle.
I linked that 2014 one time longevity bonus. Then his pay went back to something like 500k.
You mean something like $910,000 in 2015, and $936,000 in 2016 and $961,000 in 2017?
Yep your right was looking at wrong coaches salary. But again he made a million in annual salary once. Tech doesn't have this track record of people able to outspend for top talent. Pry had two choices when forming his staff when it came to OC and DC. He didn't have the option of open market bidding for experienced P5 DC or OC
He made exactly a million once. He made a million or more twice. And the year it was more was the highest paid in the country.
Because of a longevity bonus. Not as a base salary. When someone signs a contract with a bonus paid out in the future the paying entity can start putting a percent of that money away each year so it can be paid out in the future. It didn't cost Tech a million plus that one year. They paid his base then used the long term bonus money saved up over years to pay the rest. Again Tech has paid a hall of fame 20 plus year coach a million dollars ONCE. Show me the financials that say tech can pay OC and DC starting over a million and going up from there in 2022 season.
When the (arguably) best DC of the last 25 years retired, he was the 25th highest compensated coordinator. At the same time, our other coordinator was making <$450k.
The million dollar data point is arbitrary, the reality is:
No one would care about their previous experience if they were winning. Also, a toxic bunch of assholes bitching at the coaches is going to be just great for our recruiting.
Every one of these jerks should be punched in the neck. They care more about venting at our coaches than they do about VT doing well. Do they think the staff or administration is going to make changes because of what some jerkoff posted on Twitter? There was a not a single possible positive outcome from VT fans following our coaches around the internet and whining. It just makes us look like shit collectively. But they get to brag about that one time they "owned" our CB coach. Hope it's worth it, shitbirds.
Disagree, unless there are 4 LB's/DTs that are our best payers that I don't know about?
I hate the look, and hate that we have fans who think this is acceptable behavior, but these coaches knew this would/could happen when they took this job.
Yeah I have to assume that any place that attracts coaches also has a large enough fanbase that there will be some crazies willing to babble on and on via twitter. Anyone with any coach experience has to know that. No way Pry never got some awful stuff sent his way at Penn State.
I think it was the podcast he did with Adam Breneman over the summer, but he told a story about how before one of their games early on at PSU, "Bye Pry" was either trending on twitter or the catchy sign for the game or around campus. So I doubt he's shocked
We've already agreed Fry Pry will our the slogan if it comes down to that
Pry wasn't involved but there was a very public calling out a player for having dreads that Franklin addressed in the media because it got so big. So he's been around the crazies
Yep. there are losses, and then there are first losses to Marshall in 80 years things. Not all losses are equal- we got trucked by a sun belt team. Yes, Pry you are going to take heat for that as VT's coach.
Marshall is better than average this year, but your comment is fair.
Still, if you're a VT fan, you keep it all in perspective and it's a little early to trash the coaches on social media.
The Marshall team with Leftwhich that we beat by 21 points would beat this Marshall team by 60.
It's true the Marshall team with Byron Leftwich was better. So was VT at that time.
Still, THIS Marshall team is better than average.
ok, and that was also the tech team with suggs, kj, grove, whitaker (remember, he was good when he wasnt spearing people 5 seconds late, and 10 yards out of bounds), wilford, hall, king, etc
Exactly.
VT did more with, um, more.
Sun belt, Mac, SoCon, whatever. They've played in a bowl game 11 of the last 14 seasons. And finished top 2 in the MAC the last 4 seasons (which ended just 2 years ago.) This isn't bottom dwelling direcitonal Michigan.
VT played in 20 something straight bowls in the P5... we should be better that top 3rd MAC/Sunbelt teams - even in a rebuilding year.
Not based on how we played the last three years. If you expected us to be better than 3 wins Vegas was happy to take your money. With our resources, we should not be that bad, which is the reason for the vitriol. But you certainly did not predict us to better than this, no matter what Pry did. We are what we're expected to be. To be so upset someone spiels trash on a public forum shows they had unrealistic expectations for this season, based on where we started. How many games did you predict we would win? How many for the rest of the season for you to believe Pry is making progress?
VT's O/U this year in vegas was 5.5
I predicted 4-8. Guessing 3-9 now, so not really much difference. God I hope I'm not being overly-optimistic with 3-9 now.
But I'll be okay with a terrible record as long as the recruiting continues to drift up from where we are and we are at least respectable next season when the kids taking their lumps this year are (hopefully) better. The nasty gripping is way too early at this point. Though I understand the frustration. If next year is anything like last season and this season so far ... I will be displeased.
How many of these people posting are actually Pitt people paid by Pat Narduzzi?
Oh wait, is this not the hatin' on thread?
Yeah way to actively negatively recruit the program. It's dumb as hell
Not the way to address issues.
I look at it like family. Don't air dirty laundry.
And as Hokies we are Family.
Yeah absolutely, don't go against the family. Unfortunately, we now have a growing subset of fans who are taking pride in publicly going too far against it
Looks like Pry blocked a ton of accounts. Have to hope it was some grad student spending the time doing it and not Pry himself. Either way, not a fan of our fans doing any of this. As unhappy as I am with the results so far you have to let this play out. None of this helps Hokies in any way.
I'll take responsibility and out myself on this one since that's me. Though taken out of context a little bit since that post above was in response to me (kinda surprisingly) getting blocked from my "funeral" tweet, though it was intended as a harmless joke, I understand why he (or some intern) blocked me for recruits not seeing it. Woke up still feeling salty from Saturday but didn't have any ill intent, since I am rooting for Pry to turn this around. I rarely tweet at coaches, and if I do, it's never anything personal and/or intended to embarrass the school. If my funeral tweet comes off that way, then that's my bad and make sure nothing like that happens again.
do these idiots not understand that recruits see this shit?
Believe you nailed it. 'Idiots'.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but this is big-boy football and every coach on that staff is VERY well paid. If getting mean messages from fans is even in their top 50 things they are concerned about, they are in the wrong profession.
The hard reality is Virginia Tech has a .267 winning percentage under this coaching staff, with not much hope it's going to improve this season. I would never post something like that myself, but I'm not naive enough to believe that there's a single program in the country that doesn't have fans who would.
I don't think a single coach is losing a wink of sleep over it. I do think that it's a bad look on social media for the team though and I don't think it helps our recruiting.
Yeah but the sending of the mean messages accomplishes nothing and is actually counter productive
and Ox is twice the moron for amplifying it
no clue who this joe rogers chud is but he needs to tone his shit down too
Yeah he's been pretty bad for a while.
Its sad that some of the more toxic people in our fanbase on social media have been getting the most traction in recent years. Even DonV has gotten pretty bad lately.
I have no idea why anyone follows either of those two.
I mean, the post here is amplifying it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not excusing OX, either. He's definitely carrying the flag on the 'fire everyone' bandwagon right now.
Was joe talking about the ox tweet or the thread you made
Nah man, when I see prominent members of our fanbase going out of line like this, the best thing you can do is name and shame. Burying it and not talking about it allows them to continue, but bringing light to it and giving other fans some backing to push back on the shit is what we need to self govern.
If that's your objective, and I'm not dismissing your cause here, did you do so on Twitter?
I have, but my reach on twitter isn't that large. I mainly lurk over there, so this is the best place I have to get that message out.
I was talking about the thread.
I figured!
When has he not? I have to figure at this point he's a known entity in the department and they know what he stands for (or doesn't).
I will not listen to any Don V slander. #Legend
But seriously, it's NSFW, but that podcast is the most entertaining out there. Also, "Joe Rogers" puts some outlandish stuff on Twitter and trolls a bit, but he has some pretty interesting takes on the pods. He's definitely not an idiot and calls out some stuff that makes Whit and the administration look pretty bad for not realizing it sooner.
No, what that asshole does is tweet that "duh you are blind if you can't see Drones is 100% better than Wells" after the first 2 plays of the game. Then when Drones stalls, throws INT's, makes the wrong reads and he gets called out on it, he turns into a little bitch and name calls/blocks. He is the worst twitter guy on game day.
I'm talking about his takes on the pods not his tweets
DonV is pretty honest and well reasoned. Joe Rogers relishes as a provocateur (like an ESPN personality). It's a good listen, probably the most entertaining VT-centric pod at the moment.
this motherfucker really needs to chill the fuck out now jfc
hes a scumbag
Why? The VT football program is so toxic right now...maybe worse than anything during the Fu years. There's no hope, no progress, and nothing to look forward too. People like Whit and Sands need to see what's happening, because it not going to get better...if does I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, but I don't think I will be.
Things are so toxic so might as well contribute? Yeah we're all upset at the state of Hokie football but ratcheting up and funnelling the petty dickishness at coaches online accomplishes less than nothing. I dont even buy that the "program" is toxic -- the fanbase is.
I had to think twice about closing this thread, and finally decided that being two degrees away from the CG that says "dont start threads with the sole purpose of riling people up" was enough to keep it valid
I agree it's a dick move to trash the coaches on a personal level...I don't condone that at all. That being said, it should be recognized that there is clearly a problem with the program. All Ox is doing is showing how an increasing part of the fan base feels about this staff. Not saying it's right, but if it's out there...
I think almost everyone is overreacting here.
It's not that big a deal that some fans are tweeting or re-tweeting mean things about the coaches. I'm sure the coaches expect that right now, and it has literally zero effect on recruiting - as if recruits are going to ignore that we're 1-3 but somehow consider fans being angry about that a dealbreaker.
On the other hand, things are definitely NOT more toxic than they were under Fuente. We're a bad team right now, and that's probably not changing this season. But that's a far cry from Sports Illustrated articles about players threatening other players to try to tank a game because they don't want to play in a bowl game. Now THAT'S toxic, and as far as I know nothing like that is going on with this team.
Things will get worst. I believe that we may be looking at a two or three win season....Yeah, and I hope I'm wrong, but our o-line is not good and I don't know how to fix it during the season. I think we take our lumps this year and hope as Pry gets more of his players we improve to 4-5 wins next year. Then year after that, hopefully make a bowl. The question is will the fan base be patient enough? There are no quick fixes and my fear is that if we don't give Pry his 5 years, then we might turn into Tennessee or Miami where we cycle through coaches. I don't know if Vt has the resources for that kind of mischief.
Fans need to switch from a Tear it Down mentality to a Build it Up mentality. We have already tore it all down, that is why we are at the bottom right now. Let's go Build it Up better than we had it. Setting the foundation is the most critical job and we are currently trying to do that hard, tedious work so that the building can stand tall for a long time. We already have some great pieces to work with.
Enter Sandman has already gotten better this season. Granted it's only a single game so far that they have been able to show off the fireworks and fire show. It's the small things that have been getting incrementally better as each game goes on. The on the field success will follow if the off the field work is continually put in.
New dorms are coming or have just been built(I'm not sure at the moment) but that is a large step in getting the recruits to want to be here. It's another hurdle being taken off the recruiting trail for our coaches.
I also want to add that we have praised this team for not giving up at all this season so why don't we as fans not give up so easily on this team and coaches.
Because it was mentioned a few times in this thread, recruits really don't pay attention to this noise. Recruits know the climate of the program, every program they are interested in, very well, and fan outrage is a symptom of a losing program that cares. But they aren't dialed into someone on Twitter tweeting at Pry. I'm not saying the ends justify the means, but I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle thinking this will affect recruiting. This happens at Alabama, Ohio State, Florida State, etc and they sign elite level recruiting classes.
TL;DR a 5* isn't going to base his college decision on what OXVT or some other loser living in his parents' basements is tweeting.
Correct, meanwhile they will care about what the locker room looks like, how they are being developed for and NFL future, and what their NIL package is.
This is our biggest problem right now, and the hardest hurdle to overcome when you are not winning. Players are not showing development year over year, and kids with notice.
I don't agree with our locker room is toxic. No stories of fights, players leaving angry from meetings, etc. These players are working hard to get better (hopefully) and definitely never quitting on the field. As such, as fans we need to support them.
I will be there on Saturday to support MY team. Go Hokies!
Well which do you want apathy and no mean tweets or passion and feedback that the current results are unacceptable? The GAs need to be compiling these for Whit and handing him a weekly summary along with a list of needs.
Just letting everyone know that when I win this powerball, I'm buying offensive and defensive linemen. I think that solves 90% of all issues.
I was planning to win it, so I guess if we're splitting it one of us can do the defense and the other the offense?
Works for me.
I think Clark has put it best:
Such a succulent comment.
He gets straight to the point.
Kind of a dry comment
I'll try to be a little more sharp next time.
This thread wouldn't be necessary if we didn't have internet pricks
Not cool.