1) FSU played a ton of deep shell coverage, daring the Hokies to try to stretch the field. The offensive line couldn't handle the edge speed rush of the Seminoles, and in the rare instance that Drones did get a shot off, he didn't give his big receivers balls that they could make a play on. Granted, they weren't getting open.
2) Most of the passing game success was in the flat. Kudos to Lane, Thomas, and Tuten for running hard to make some tough first downs on those flat passes and extend drives. But, ultimately you can't consistently win games with 15 play drives, especially when the offensive line breaks down.
3) I got the feeling Florida State could have hurt the Hokies more in the passing game if they wanted to. Coleman in particular seemed to get inside position on Dorian Strong whenever he wanted to. Florida State also cracked inside a lot, making Strong the unblocked hat, and he didn't look like he wanted the smoke in run support. After a great game last week, he had a rough go this week.
4) Mose Phillips is growing up hard. He has been put in some difficult spots, both in run support and in coverage, and so far he looks like an overmatched freshman. It is unfair to expect more, but for the Hokies to turn a corner, they need these freshmen and sophomores to start making plays and unseat the low-upside veterans.
5) One thing I did talk about- Florida State is really good. They had a plan on offense, and when they got a hat on hat, they were winning those battles across the board. Given what a clown show the program was the last time Virginia Tech beat Florida State, it is really impressive that Mike Norvell not only has upgraded the talent, but has them playing a very disciplined and tough game. Their recruiting until last season hasn't been significantly better rankings wise than VT since Norvell took over, but they have done a good job developing players and have nailed the portal (Travis, Benson, Coleman.) A lot of those guys were upper three star/low four star guys (Josh Farmer had a great game, he was only the 65th rated player in Georgia as a HS senior, Payton was a low four star, Lundy was a three star.) They are developing guys. It is a scary site.
Comments
I noted this in the game thread but think it's worth repeating.
After FSUs 4th possession...AKA the first time we had a stop, when Travis got to the sideline, Norvell was in his ear, not necessarily angrily but clearly wanted to discuss with him what he was seeing and where he went with the ball.
It's that level of accountability that leads to successful rebuilds vs. middling around.
So when I see out LB and S miss fit after fit after fit, I want to know that someone is getting in their ear about it. Maybe it's happening behind the scenes but whatever is (or isn't) happening hasn't led to noticeable improvement.
I haven't been paying close enough attention to know if that is happening for us, but FSU is in year 4 of Norvell's rebuild. I think it's a lot easier to see the accountability. I at least think it was harder to see in year 2 (2021) as a spectator. They looked like an inconsistent and mediocre team at 5-7 (4-4). Which is awfully similar to what we're witnessing with Virginia Tech football. Inconsistency with glimpses of quality play. I'm hopeful we can turn a corner as the culture is shifted, the talent level is improved, and the talent is developed like what Norvell has done at FSU.
That's fair and agree. Not necessary trying to directly compare Pry and Norvell.
I simply found it impressive that up 22-0 and dominating nearly every facet at that point, he wasn't satisfied with "good enough." I hope that at their core, that's where our coaches are at from an expectation standpoint because I think that's what it is going to take to be successful here.
I don't think we'll be a top 5 team in two years, but I think FSU's rebuild is a good template for us to follow. A total roster gut-job like ours takes 4-5 years, even somewhere like FSU. Some fans aren't going to like it, but that's what it takes more often than not.
This was kinda my expectation, honestly. If we can get to 5-6 wins this year, I'll be pretty happy, as I think it shows progress. And maybe have ourselves a somewhat decent year next year, ending on a really hopeful note.
Agreed. They have done it with development and being really good in the portal, with Benson and Coleman as the best examples. Their average recruit has been higher than Pry's, but not as much higher as you would think although they are getting some higher ranked guys this year. Last few years have been high 3s low 4s.
After a great game last week, he had a rough go this week.
Yyeeaahh, it was tough to watch and I mentioned something similar in a few of my other comments. Strong played really well last week, and then my feelings for his play went right back to luke warm. Iono if I'm just making up stuff, but it feels like teams are prone to targeting him/his side of the field when they wanna stretch the field
First hokie game I ever remember turning off. When Norvell went for 2 after their first touchdown, I moved my phone and turned the game off- did not watch another play. That play indicated to me that we aren't a serious program at all in Norvell's eyes, and it pissed me off so much- the reality of where we have fallen to- I didn't watch another snap.
Super serious analysis!! But for real, why let one stupid gadget play get you so worked up? It's interesting that they resorted to gadget play when they were clearly the team with superior talent, but I do not see how it says anything about VT at the moment. No idea how one could get to that conclusion rationally.
The 2018 Pitt game was 1000000x worse than this game.
Going for two after the first TD is not an uncommon move. Oregon used to do every time, and Mizzou did it on their first TD against LSU earlier the same day. That is a truly absurd single reason to give up on a game so early.
Yeah it ticked me off but I quickly forgot about that 1 additional point when they promptly put up 14 additional unanswered points in the same quarter
Its the symbolism to me. And yeah, Chip Kelly is a prick. Smartest guy in the room getting his ass kicked when hes not cheating. Norvell did not take VT seriously. That is where we are. That's why I turned off the TV.
see, this is your real problem. You're still watching TV. You should cancel your cable and switch to streaming
heavy s//
but really streaming on an hour delay is the way to go.
If you start an hour late, are you still able to catch up by the end of the game?
Ya I think so. Usually you save 20 minutes by skipping half time alone. You'd be surprised how quick a game goes when after a 5 second play, there's 30 seconds to skip.
Just about. I often skip the time in between plays if it's not a good game or we are getting crushed. Youtube TV's fast forward system allows you to skip almost the perfect time between whistle and the next snap.
If its a good game I'll enjoy the atmosphere and commentary. Honestly though, I don't want to waste 3+ hours watching us get crushed by FSU or something so it's nice to be able to watch and have the option. Its also great for other games I'm interested in but don't have a fan connection to watch all the between plays stuff.
Thanks. That is a good idea and one that I'll probably implement now from time-to-time. YTTV makes it easy with the "join live" or "start at beginning" option they provide.
I actually think it's the smart move - wish pry did it more.
It's the same idea as investing in (relatively) higher risk equities at a younger age, but investing in bonds or other lower risk things as you get older - take an early 'risk' with a high upside, and you have time to make up the difference if something goes wrong.
What is the higher % play for VT- a team that struggles to execute on offense and block defenders? an extra point or a 2 point conversion? And why didn't Norvell do it after every score- by your logic? Why did he kick the extra point on their second touchdown?
Once he got the 8 points on the first score there was no point in risking it again. He effectively forced vt to also go for 2 just to tie eventually. If he went for 2 again and failed then he's giving up the 1 point advantage. I'm all for offenses going for 2 on their first td, especially if they score on their opening drive. You don't like it? Then stop it.
As noted in this thread, VT converted 4/6 'money downs' (3rd downs, 4 downs, or goal line downs where 2 yards or less are needed to convert). So I think VT should go for 2 more often. 2 x .66 = 1.33 expected points, which is greater than the 1 point you'd get from a PAT.
I'd argue he should have.
I don't wish Pry did that more, yet. I don't think we are there with the team to have a good chance at making those count. We are 0-3 in 2pt conversions in the last two seasons. We are 16/31 in 4th down conversions which i would think is a better rate than 2pt conversion (we are 10-17 this season after 4-16 last year so we are getting better opportunities).
I don't understand why more teams don't do it. It's one thing to do it against say USC, because do you really want to poke the bear but against the KSUs, NDs, UofLs, Miamis of the world that are good but not great at offense, you put them behind the numbers and see if they can keep up. Especially teams with efficient offenses and really good defenses (Michigan, Oregon, Washington, Texas, PSU).
So... My co-worker (ex P5 football player and former HS football coach - defensive coordinator) gave me some feedback on our game today.
He said, "Hey man, I watched those LBs, just like you told me. And damn, if my multi year starters refused to fit gaps I'd sit their asses down. I never cared if guys lost battles physically. Sometimes the other guy is just better. But refusing to do your job, or not being able to comprehend your job requires sitting on the sideline."
I don't know who is being held accountable and who isn't. I don't know what the backups look like, but the whole situation with that group is a disaster. Pry needs to turn that room over this offseason.
This is particularly troubling with three coaches on staff who are known for their work with linebackers
Too many cooks?
Well, there's only one of those who is playing poorly, Tisdale, who has played better on occasion this year. His backup, Keller, is nowhere close to a "multi-year" starter, and is playing a different LB position than he did last year. Keli Lawson is not a multi-year starter, and so that leaves the only other multi-year starter as Keonta Jenkins, who has not largely been the problem with the run fits, but is also backed up by a true frosh.
Its blatantly evident that pry needs to hit the portal and find a couple LBs that fit his system- in terms of scheme, instincts, etc. Don't have to be 5 stars or high P5 players. Find some experienced LBs that fit what we are trying to do. Cause it aint working. Our guys - when they fit the right gap - are not playing downhill, and can't get off blocks. Pry knows this scheme- he knows the type of player we need- he needs to go get them. From anywhere.
There have got to be some LBs that fit his scheme riding the pine somewhere else who want a chance to go hit people.
I cry every time I watch Abdul Carter suit up for Penn State. He would have been a four year starter at WILL IMO.
I'm not against going after LB's in the portal, particularly at Mike.
You're definitely correct here. However, I would push back a little with the fact that even though, for example, Lawson isn't technically a multi-year starter, he's still been in the system for two years - as have many of the other LBs.
The point still remains IMO - Guys aren't being held accountable; guys aren't being developed, or guys simply shouldn't be playing college football.
Pry/Marve isn't asking them to do something so incredibly complicated that we need Stanford or Duke level players. If he is, we have more serious problems.
Well Marve did go to Vandy, and apparently got into Vanderbilt law as well, so maybe the scheme is just too advanced for us VT simpletons. /s
I think the overall point is solid. You have to be improving and held accountable, but I don't think we have the players behind them to put strong pressure on them right now, unfortunately.
And this is certainly a possibility. I think it's just very difficult for any VT fan to embrace the harsh reality that our LB's, the veterans and newbies alike, might not be D1 football players.
If this is the absolute best we can get out of the group... wow.
I think Keli Lawson is a legit player. Incredible talent and freak athlete. He's worth giving the time to develop. He started out at RECEIVER somehow under the other staff. He should have been learning LB from day one.
I agree with you about Lawson. My point still remains. Even Lawson, as much upside as he has is playing worse than he did at the end of last season, as is the entire unit really. Part of me wonders if he'd be a better fit at the SAM position? Who knows. Maybe we'll never find out because of our personnel issues.
In any event, the upside we both see is more damning IMO than not seeing that upside.
Last year Lawson got play alongside Dax, who, if nothing else, would be in the right gap. Lawson is missing that stability next to him this year.
What, specifically, would you like the coaches to do differently in order to hold players "accountable", which you know for a fact that they are not currently doing?
I know we have gone back and forth on this so I'm not here to take one side or the other. But I will say, I think progress is being made by this staff under Pry. But the progress is marginal. We are getting progress in very small doses. And my personal opinion and that of a lot of the other VT site writers is that our rebuild time has been extended by overall inexperience on our staff. There's no way to say definitively what is and isn't being done, but we as fans can only watch the on-field product and judge by that and the W/L column.
Do I think we are better than last year? Yes, but very marginally. I think most people were expecting us to beat teams like Marshall and Purdon't. Did I expect us to beat FSU? No, not at all. But we can't spot any team three scores in the first and expect to win.
I'm personally not fully sold on this staff, just because I think there's too much inexperience. Heck, look at Louisville. Jeff Brohm has them punching way above their weight class in year one. I'm not trying to indict the staff on what they are/aren't doing, but I think it's fair to question why, as Andy Bitter himself put it in the TSL pod, we are still dealing with week 1 issues (run fits) in week 6. Or as CC said, why we throw 9/12 times in the first 12 plays when we threw 19 total vs Pitt.
Comma's and the word "or" are important things in my post. I think that is one possible scenario.
I'm not trying to hate on your post, my question was legitimate and not directed solely at you. I keep seeing "the coaches need to hold the players accountable" on here, and I don't really know what people mean when they say that. Are they implying we should be benching LBs and playing their backups? I don't know that we become a better football team that way. I find it hard to believe that the coaches would play a worse player just because he's an upperclassman.
The coaches want to win games as much, if not more, than any of us. If they thought they could bench all our linebackers and improve the defense, they'd do it. The fact that they haven't kinda speaks for itself, in my opinion.
I don't have a problem with people questioning our coaches, I do have a problem with people criticizing them for things they can't change right now. Our LBs are what we've got. No amount of "accountability" is going to make a positive change to our defense.
It's year round. It's in the classroom, it's in the locker room, it's in practice, it's in games. People think that all players work hard, train hard- that's not true. There are players at VT- believe it or not- that don't work hard, don't lift hard, aren't on time, don't go to class, smoke dope, drink, etc. yes. believe it or not. So the coaches mission is to get these kids to buy in, play together, out work Wake, NC State, UVA, Clemson, etc. That's accountability. If you don't have that across the board, no company, team anything is going to be successful. Art Briles lost this at Baylor. Rich Rod lost this at Arizona. Fuente lost this at VT. Players didn't care about the program or each other. So you lose. It is much more about that, than fitting a gap. Yeah Marve jumps Tisdale's ass on a saturday for trying to over pursue, but that happens every play. You see Saban chewing out 5 star NFL type players. Accountability is much bigger than that. The great coaches have it- all year long.
I'm not opposed to accountability. And I appreciate how destructive a toxic player can be to a locker room.
I also get the frustration of being a current VT fan with the context of the late 90's-2000's success.
But, honest question: how many of slackers do you think VT has, either player, or coaches?
I have no intimate knowledge of the current VT staff/rosters. But my prior experiences, interactions are that MOST of the people involved are pretty upstanding, hard-working, dedicated etc.
My limited, second-hand knowledge is that Pry is pretty awesome, and there is has been a palpable change in expectations from the last staff.
How many slackers? not many. These kids work very very hard and its a 16 hour a day job during the season. Its incredibly grueling with travel, media, academics, etc. The coaches are demanding. My point is that there are in fact players who don't work and don't buy in. The best coaches and teams either get rid of them or they leave on their own from pressure from other players holding them accountable and not respecting them.
Culture
If you're going to use grammar to insult someone on the Internet, try not to make a grammatical error while you're doing it.
Not the grocer's apostrophe.
everybody makes mistake's
No insult. Just trying to point out that I never said what you suggested.
An insult would be, "try reading a post before insinuating something."
That would be an insult.
You never said that players weren't being held accountable?
You said:
In response, I asked what you thought the coaches should do differently in order to achieve accountability. Where did I insinuate you said something that you didn't? I wasn't insulting you or your post, I asked what I thought was a pretty reasonable question.
In response to that you first questioned my ability to understand your usage of commas and the word "or" in a sarcastic manner, then you doubled down by implying that I didn't actually read your post and that I was insinuating that you were making a point which you were not.
I don't know what your problem is but if you don't care to answer my question then don't answer it. Don't come at me with some weak ass attempt to insult my reading comprehension.
I'm unsure if you're having trouble finding them...
Here's the first quote:
Here's the second quote:
The first quote is not from the post I commented on.
The second quote is what led me to ask what you thought the coaches should do to instill accountability.
I still don't see any reason why you seem to have felt you needed to clap back at me instead of just having a conversation.
I apologize if I overreacted, I was just trying to have a conversation, asked what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question, and got (what I perceived as) an insult for my troubles. If no insult was meant, then no worries.
I agree that the LB room needs serious work in the off-season, and hopefully some freshmen and rs-FR show up in shape and ready to ball in the spring and fall camps.
However, I am definitely of a mind that if these are the LBs we're playing, then the alternatives are likely worse. Some people seem baffled that the coaches aren't benching these players, but there's a very good chance that our defense would be even worse with their backups.
The coaches job is to win. You are damn right there aren't better players just sitting on the bench. At any position. That's a fan mindset- not a coaches one. They play the best guys- their jobs depend on it.
I agree with your point here completely, but an argument could be made that coaches don't always make the right evaluations. Cough, cough, Drones, cough, cough, Wells.
Is that the wrong evaluation or just what 90% of us predicted last spring. Drones would take over at somepoint, he did.
The closer we got to opening day this year, the more the coaches ran very specific scenarios in practice - red zone, 4 minute, 2 minute. Wells was better at it. Less mistakes, more red zone success, etc. It is what it is. Not a knock on Drones, but when the game planning got more specific, Wells was better. Understand that Pry and Bowen aren't stupid. They know where the offense struggles and they wanted to give us the best chance. The fans see Drones run around, make plays, etc. And that's great, maybe he is a "gamer", but the decision to start Wells wasn't a conspiracy. It was the trimmed down game scenarios.
Oh I 100% agree there was no conspiracy or anything. I don't think the evaluation was missed either. Wells had more time in the system and throws a nice deep ball.
Many on this site expected Wells to take over mid way through the season, not because the coaches got it wrong but because he learned the playback and was ready to be the playmaker everyone hoped he'd be when we signed him. So what happened was predicted by many based on just development time needed.
Same. You want to hold Tisdale "accountable" for not being a good mike? Well, you've already benched Keller for that reason, so who do you put in instead? Options are: move McDonald or Lawson over, start walk on true frosh Ballance, start true frosh 180-pound Copeland, move Jeannette to Mike from DE, play an injured Stevens, play Will Johnson which you already tried and it didn't go very well.
Tisdale is your best option right now. Sucks but just the reality of our depth.
They have been benching them, though. One game we got all the way down to a RS FR walk on at Mike.
The problem is that benching a starter is not much of a threat when everyone behind him is clearly worse. And not just worse, but not worthy of playing P5 football, or clearly too young to do so worse.
Ballance is a true freshman
True Freshman walk on LBs getting burn tells you your program aint in great shape.
Does not sound optimal.
He's the only true Mike Linebacker on the team. Everyone else is converted safety, receiver, or SAM/WILL backer.
So, to your point, says a lot about the roster state.
Bingo
Reminds me of the COVID depth chart against UNC back in 2020. We gave up a bunch of 500 yard runs that day too.
The one area Norvell really crushed Pry in terms of program building was in his staff.
Norvell has three former head coaches on staff and two other coaches that spent time as either Offensive or Defensive Coordinators at the G5/P5 level prior to joining his staff. He has three NFL Alum on staff as well. The other members of his staff had multiple years at P5 schools coaching their current roles. They have over 150 years coaching across the staff. Pry does not have this deep, experienced staff backing him up....and it shows.
Meh, you're really spinning it with the benefit of hindsight.
Norvell's initial set of coordinators had a total of one year of P5 experience between them. One (Kenny Dillignham) is now the HC at ASU, the DC who started with Norvell is still there. The OC who replaced Dillingham (Alex Atkins) was previously the FSU OL coach and was promoted from within. He had no P5 experience prior to FSU, and had spent just one year as an OC at Charlotte in 2019.
Look at Pry's staff last year... three coaches with OC experience, everyone (except Miles and Quinn) with some P5 experience, a former NFL position coach, multiple guys who played in the NFL, a former head coach (Quinn), the nation's (supposed) best OL coach... And we said that was too many cooks in the kitchen.
Would be nice to have an experienced G5 OC (and, you know, actually put him at OC), but overall I don't think this staff was poorly constructed. They just haven't delivered (yet... hopefully).
He has Randy Shannon as Co defensive coordinator, Chris Thomsen as Deputy Head Coach/Tight Ends, and Adam Fuller as the other DC. All three have been Head coaches at some level. Fuller was also Norvells DC at Memphis.
Odell Haggins, Associate Head Coach/Defensive Tackles has been coaching at FSU since 1994 and was the interim Head coach when Bobby Bowden and Jimbo Fischer left.
Atkins, the OC has about 15 years coaching, progressively advancing with assistant Head coach responsibilities at Tulane and Charlotte where he was also OC. The Special Teams coach who also coaches defensive ends was also Defensive Coordinator at UNC and Nebraska at one point.
Don't think I am really spinning much to say that Norvell has a much deeper staff than Pry.
He didn't start with Randy Shannon or Atkins, he picked him up just like we picked up Crooks who has a really good history of evelopimg/coaching oline.
Ah, I thought you were talking about his original coaching staff.
Also Norvell and FSU don't have enough TV money to compete anymore, so you have to hand it to him doing this without enough TV money.
Definitely the nail holding both hands behind his back.
1a)
...tell me he's not this guy brought back to life?
Youngling Frank upset him the very same way.
b.street