Well this is excellent news. Hopefully it implies he'll be with the team this fall. Frank Beamer cited Marshall as being among Virginia's best players when he signed in 2011. Everyone knows how thin Tech is at DT, Marhsall could give the Hokies a more legitimate two-deep.
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I'd like to see him at DE as well, but for spring there are exactly two healthy scholarship DTs. (Baron is non-contact for at least the first half of spring practice). There's also several young DE that really need reps to be ready to contribute this fall. We all know Marshall can contribute at both positions, so this move basically allows the rest of the team to get more out of practice. Also Williams beating out Marshall isn't quite a given, so there will be competition and competition is always good.
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I'd prefer him at DE. I like our 2-deep with Maddy-Williams & Walker-Baron-(maybe Sobcazak) at DT rather than our 2-deep at DE such as Nicolas-Ekanem and Dooley-Alford. Add Marshall to the mix at DE and depth improves immensely. I do like Seth Dooley a lot, he's my sleeper pick among defensive newcomers this spring.
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I sense that Marshall's role could change once the freshmen arrive, but VT's hurting for DTs this spring. That's why I think they're starting him here for the time being.
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This is why BF can't land the big name guys most recently like Grant, Hand & Nandi. We get Teller and Smith for defense and whoosh they are in the OL logjam. Have 4 returning OL starters, recruited the FAB 5 - 1. After Teller and Smith waste a couple of years bumping around the OL merry-go-round there they will be back on DL. Now Marshall is following the same path as Jim Davis and John Graves. These kids come wanting a shot at a pro career and the first thing we do is start the chess game moving them around and making them undersized DT. As much as we pride ourselves on coaching stability, you get on the internal merry-go-round with different position coaches. We can talk about the unusual nature of the gap defense but unless you are a 5'-11' 300# DT or 6'-1" 220# DE you have no idea where you will be. I got a big kick out of DeBerry thinking after playing 2 yrs at DE he'll come here and play LB because that's his natural position. He may be a DT if eats too may Whoppers.
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I get the distinct impression we can't land guys like Nandi because they have the opportunity to get significant playing time on a team that's an immediate threat for a National Title.
We won't be an immediate threat for another 2 years.
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Regardless of what the rest of the roster looks like, sometimes a guy doesn't have quite the speed to play DE, and doesn't quite have the size to play DT.
Marshall at 6'1" is already way too short according to the NFL prototypical DE or DT... it must be a miracle that he can contribute at all in college, right? smh
IMO it's a testament to Bud's scheme that an undersized DT can be an effective player.
Also there's no way Teller switches back to DL. He might very well start this season at RT. Smith was going to be a bit of a project either way.
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I mean that in the sense that he's probably not going to win a starting job until his r-JR season, which is more of a typical pace for OL. Teller has a legit chance as a r-FR.
Also compared to other positions OL recruits are almost always projects in the sense that they have to gain a lot more weight / strength to be effective.
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I haven't seen Smith play offensive line, but you're absolutely incorrect about Teller. If he's not a starter this season, he will be before going to the NFL after his junior season. Coming out of high school, everyone knew he'd be a better fit at offensive, rather than defensive tackle.
Agreed. But I think what he was alluding to was not specifically Teller but the way big time recruits are shuffled to other positions than the one the professed to want to play. I remember reading your post but I also remember reading multiple interviews with Teller where he said he had zero interest to play offense.
From the time I was at VT, they had a reputation for moving players and I think they still do. Someone on TKP, I forget who, told the story of his cousin who was a D1 kid in VA not considering the Hokies precisely because it was known to recruits that we will move them from the position they want to play. In Teller's case, I have always agreed he would be a monster on OL but if he has said time and again that he wants to play defense and gets "asked" by coaching staff to change to create depth then there is something wrong. Yes, it may be the best move for him and I am sure coaches explained that to him, but in reality the failures of the coaching staff to recruit well for OL is not Teller's.
Logan was "asked" to change to position he stated clearly he did not want to play. Teller the same. And as I said it's a perception that's been around since 1995 at least.
That perception affects recruiting if the recruit does not believe that they will get their shot at the position they dream of playing, and in their mind they need those 4 years of solid position coaching to get the next level. As with Corey Marshall who has shuffled back and forth more than most ever do. Again because of depth issue tied to recruiting. If that is the perception then it will affect an 18 year old's decision to select the Hokies. this combined with a defensive scheme that French labels an outlier means we are more often than not outside looking in on these 5 star recruits. (Hopefully that changes next year with Settle).
Also it would be fair to point out that in this way staff continuity can be somewhat of a negative. If that is the perception and staff never change then it will always be the perception. Case in point, VT was never perceived as a location for top QB talent to consider. Now after 1 year of Lefty we have 2 recruits that normally would never give VT a sniff and were in the hunt for the #1 recruit in nation most of the year. That's a huge change in the perception of what's going on in Blacksburg.
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yeah, you know I honestly don't either. I really do not believe that Teller was pressured into it by coaches and rather given an honest assessment and told he could be a star OL. I do think there is always the peer pressure to "help" the team and be a team player. However, I think the issue is when you consider that teenage kids that have a dream of playing their favorite position are considering VT and there is that perception, rightly or wrongly, that will influence them.
It's like Tyrod saying definitively to NFL: I am a Quarterback. I'm sure he got pressure to consider playing other positions by teams interested in him, but he made his choice. I think recruits coming from high school are making the same definitive decisions, again rightly or wrongly, and are generally against getting moved around.
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I think recruits coming from high school are making the same definitive decisions, again rightly or wrongly, and are generally against getting moved around.
This is a solid point and I don't disagree with it. However, you see kids get moved around all over the place. We only think it's excessive because we actually pay attention to VT. Shoot, even FSU was moving guys around to get them on the field. I think most intelligent players, HS coaches and parents are aware that the coaching staff (really just about anywhere the kid goes) is going to do their best to get the kid on the field and in a position to succeed, whether or not it's necessarily the kid's favorite position.
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Sure hope Teller is all you want him to be. DT and OL are really hard to project. All you have to do is look at can't miss 3* & 4* beasts like "Big" Jimmy Williams, Vinston Painter (a guy on roller skates between O&D), Matt Welsh, Clark Crum, Trip Carroll, Antonio North, Brandon Holland, Aaron Brown and Dwight Tucker. Not that these were bad young men or bad football players they just never hit the mark folks projected for them.Unless your last name is Mathews and you play at A&M I wouldn't hold my breath to get drafted early into the show.
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Everyone is getting caught up on the Teller comment, but you raise a good point. Guys like Nnadi are too big for Foster's prototypical DT. A guy like Bronson is prototypical DE size and we're already hearing he's slated for DT. A guy like Keihn (and Ekanem before him) are prototypical MLB size and get moved to DE (Keihn has never even played much MLB).
We're a twenner defense, always have been, always will be. And it shows in our NFL export record, we're good exporting the players who aren't tweeners: DB's.
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Guys like Nnadi are too big for Foster's prototypical DT.
On the contrary, I think Nnadi was just right for Foster's system. At 6'1", 305 lbs, I'm not quite sure how you think he would be too big. Too heavy? Too tall? Neither of which are true. Skip was 6'0", 311 lbs. My understanding is Foster isn't worried about size as much as speed. You have to have the speed and ability to move between blocks and get into the backfield, not just eat blocks for your LBs and DEs to make all the plays. That was Nnadi's style and that's why we went after him.
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First of all, Nnadi is the perfect size for a foster DT.
Not sure where you're coming from anywhere else...
1. Ekanem was a defensive end in high school - he was never moved there.
2. Keihn was a defesive end in high school, who played linebacker was part of the All America game stuff.
3. You're hearing Kevin Bronson to DT from bloggers, not the coaches yet.
You can't just move people to linebacker based on their size and expect them to contribute. It's an entirely different position. Linebacker is a tough position to play - you have to immediately diagnose the play and either attack your run-game assignment or drop into your coverage. If you're wrong, play action is over your head or you're going to be on your heels in the run game.
But, what you're saying has nothing to do with size and everything to do with speed. 6'5" 260 lb defensive ends wiith speed don't come around very often (Hello, Josh Sweat). Same for big linebackers who can cover.
Ekanem was a defensive end in high school - he was never moved there.
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A vast majority of Keihn's highlight film is as a middle linebacker. I watched Ekanem play in high school. He was a defensive end every down I watched in person for two games (except when he was playing tight end on offense.) I think we confuse what Rivals projects a player to be with what they want to do. Some examples are players that have been brought up. Caleb was a quarterback in high school. Every down quarterback. He wasn't going to be a QB in college, so you see a guy with his height and speed and say "receiver." Nick Dew was another guy. Every film I watched of the kid had him as a linebacker. He never adjusted to the safety or whip positions.
But, sometimes the position change leads to big things. See Kam Chancellor. We will know soon if the Teller and Smith moves pay off. Holland Fisher will be another player who has all-world talent, but his position of strength is a big question mark. Wait until you read my film review on him this week. Your head will spin when I say he may be a MIKE linebacker.
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I think you are right on with this. I actually had this same conversation with some Hokie friends over email last week. Myself and another guy both said he would make a helluva Mike. Dude has the vision and mobility.
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VT tends to do well with DEs. Dadi brings experience and for the second half of the season played on par or better than JR Collins. I think Dadi blows up this year.
There's a good bit of talent for the rest of the DEs. Marshall probably will switch back and forth. Besides Marshall have to remember that Ekanem was a highly coveted 4 star recruit that has a couple of years in the system and Mihota is a big kid that was a big time recruit as well. Seth Dooley has raised eyebrows apparently.
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I have tempered expectations for Dadi this year. No doubt, he's the best athlete at the DE position. But there are 2 reasons I think he won't have a monster season. First, I don't know if he's big enough to be an every down DE. He's definitely more of a prototypical pass-rushing specialist and, at times, struggles against the run (like the Hundley TD in Sun Bowl). Second, I really hope he doesn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets that junior year slump after a spectacular sophomore year, much like Gayle, Collins, and Hosely.
I would much prefer you to be right, and I hope Dadi has a season to remember.
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Teams have had success with ligher pass rushing defensive ends. Barkevious Mingo was 240 at LSU. Dadi was 224 last year and presumably put on more weight in the offseason.
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Hopefully, Dadi learns to play under control this year. Last year there were a lot of plays where he was in the backfield so fast, was in position to make a play, and overran the QB or ball carrier. He overcommitted, and missed the tackle.
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Comments
Well this is excellent news. Hopefully it implies he'll be with the team this fall. Frank Beamer cited Marshall as being among Virginia's best players when he signed in 2011. Everyone knows how thin Tech is at DT, Marhsall could give the Hokies a more legitimate two-deep.
a quick summary:
Glad to see Corey back but really wish the coaches would keep him at end.
I'd like to see him at DE as well, but for spring there are exactly two healthy scholarship DTs. (Baron is non-contact for at least the first half of spring practice). There's also several young DE that really need reps to be ready to contribute this fall. We all know Marshall can contribute at both positions, so this move basically allows the rest of the team to get more out of practice. Also Williams beating out Marshall isn't quite a given, so there will be competition and competition is always good.
We are thin at DE & DT. Maybe he will switch between the two. Glad to hear that he is back. He has the potential to be pretty diesel.
I'd prefer him at DE. I like our 2-deep with Maddy-Williams & Walker-Baron-(maybe Sobcazak) at DT rather than our 2-deep at DE such as Nicolas-Ekanem and Dooley-Alford. Add Marshall to the mix at DE and depth improves immensely. I do like Seth Dooley a lot, he's my sleeper pick among defensive newcomers this spring.
I sense that Marshall's role could change once the freshmen arrive, but VT's hurting for DTs this spring. That's why I think they're starting him here for the time being.
Good point. Unless Marshall puts on about 20 pounds of solid muscle-weight, he's never going to be anything more than a situational DT at 257.
This is why BF can't land the big name guys most recently like Grant, Hand & Nandi. We get Teller and Smith for defense and whoosh they are in the OL logjam. Have 4 returning OL starters, recruited the FAB 5 - 1. After Teller and Smith waste a couple of years bumping around the OL merry-go-round there they will be back on DL. Now Marshall is following the same path as Jim Davis and John Graves. These kids come wanting a shot at a pro career and the first thing we do is start the chess game moving them around and making them undersized DT. As much as we pride ourselves on coaching stability, you get on the internal merry-go-round with different position coaches. We can talk about the unusual nature of the gap defense but unless you are a 5'-11' 300# DT or 6'-1" 220# DE you have no idea where you will be. I got a big kick out of DeBerry thinking after playing 2 yrs at DE he'll come here and play LB because that's his natural position. He may be a DT if eats too may Whoppers.
Teller is not moving back to the DL.
I get the distinct impression we can't land guys like Nandi because they have the opportunity to get significant playing time on a team that's an immediate threat for a National Title.
We won't be an immediate threat for another 2 years.
Regardless of what the rest of the roster looks like, sometimes a guy doesn't have quite the speed to play DE, and doesn't quite have the size to play DT.
Marshall at 6'1" is already way too short according to the NFL prototypical DE or DT... it must be a miracle that he can contribute at all in college, right? smh
IMO it's a testament to Bud's scheme that an undersized DT can be an effective player.
Also there's no way Teller switches back to DL. He might very well start this season at RT. Smith was going to be a bit of a project either way.
Teller is a beast! He will play this season!
Based on what I've read, Smith's definitely not a "project" as an OL.
I mean that in the sense that he's probably not going to win a starting job until his r-JR season, which is more of a typical pace for OL. Teller has a legit chance as a r-FR.
Also compared to other positions OL recruits are almost always projects in the sense that they have to gain a lot more weight / strength to be effective.
I haven't seen Smith play offensive line, but you're absolutely incorrect about Teller. If he's not a starter this season, he will be before going to the NFL after his junior season. Coming out of high school, everyone knew he'd be a better fit at offensive, rather than defensive tackle.
Read this interview I did with his high school coach a couple of years ago: http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2012/may/15/2013-recruiting-wyatt-teller.
Teller would have battled to keep his weight low for DE or DT, now he'll be able to put on lean muscle and mash along the OL.
Agreed. But I think what he was alluding to was not specifically Teller but the way big time recruits are shuffled to other positions than the one the professed to want to play. I remember reading your post but I also remember reading multiple interviews with Teller where he said he had zero interest to play offense.
From the time I was at VT, they had a reputation for moving players and I think they still do. Someone on TKP, I forget who, told the story of his cousin who was a D1 kid in VA not considering the Hokies precisely because it was known to recruits that we will move them from the position they want to play. In Teller's case, I have always agreed he would be a monster on OL but if he has said time and again that he wants to play defense and gets "asked" by coaching staff to change to create depth then there is something wrong. Yes, it may be the best move for him and I am sure coaches explained that to him, but in reality the failures of the coaching staff to recruit well for OL is not Teller's.
Logan was "asked" to change to position he stated clearly he did not want to play. Teller the same. And as I said it's a perception that's been around since 1995 at least.
That perception affects recruiting if the recruit does not believe that they will get their shot at the position they dream of playing, and in their mind they need those 4 years of solid position coaching to get the next level. As with Corey Marshall who has shuffled back and forth more than most ever do. Again because of depth issue tied to recruiting. If that is the perception then it will affect an 18 year old's decision to select the Hokies. this combined with a defensive scheme that French labels an outlier means we are more often than not outside looking in on these 5 star recruits. (Hopefully that changes next year with Settle).
Also it would be fair to point out that in this way staff continuity can be somewhat of a negative. If that is the perception and staff never change then it will always be the perception. Case in point, VT was never perceived as a location for top QB talent to consider. Now after 1 year of Lefty we have 2 recruits that normally would never give VT a sniff and were in the hunt for the #1 recruit in nation most of the year. That's a huge change in the perception of what's going on in Blacksburg.
I was specifically addressing the following:
Like I said, I haven't seen Smith's film, but as for Teller...
Yes, understood. That's why I said I agreed first.
Was making a secondary comment about recruiting. Should have made that more clear.
I don't think there's necessarily an issue with putting a kid where he's got the best shot at making it to the NFL.
yeah, you know I honestly don't either. I really do not believe that Teller was pressured into it by coaches and rather given an honest assessment and told he could be a star OL. I do think there is always the peer pressure to "help" the team and be a team player. However, I think the issue is when you consider that teenage kids that have a dream of playing their favorite position are considering VT and there is that perception, rightly or wrongly, that will influence them.
It's like Tyrod saying definitively to NFL: I am a Quarterback. I'm sure he got pressure to consider playing other positions by teams interested in him, but he made his choice. I think recruits coming from high school are making the same definitive decisions, again rightly or wrongly, and are generally against getting moved around.
This is a solid point and I don't disagree with it. However, you see kids get moved around all over the place. We only think it's excessive because we actually pay attention to VT. Shoot, even FSU was moving guys around to get them on the field. I think most intelligent players, HS coaches and parents are aware that the coaching staff (really just about anywhere the kid goes) is going to do their best to get the kid on the field and in a position to succeed, whether or not it's necessarily the kid's favorite position.
yep. Agreed.
Sure hope Teller is all you want him to be. DT and OL are really hard to project. All you have to do is look at can't miss 3* & 4* beasts like "Big" Jimmy Williams, Vinston Painter (a guy on roller skates between O&D), Matt Welsh, Clark Crum, Trip Carroll, Antonio North, Brandon Holland, Aaron Brown and Dwight Tucker. Not that these were bad young men or bad football players they just never hit the mark folks projected for them.Unless your last name is Mathews and you play at A&M I wouldn't hold my breath to get drafted early into the show.
Everyone is getting caught up on the Teller comment, but you raise a good point. Guys like Nnadi are too big for Foster's prototypical DT. A guy like Bronson is prototypical DE size and we're already hearing he's slated for DT. A guy like Keihn (and Ekanem before him) are prototypical MLB size and get moved to DE (Keihn has never even played much MLB).
We're a twenner defense, always have been, always will be. And it shows in our NFL export record, we're good exporting the players who aren't tweeners: DB's.
On the contrary, I think Nnadi was just right for Foster's system. At 6'1", 305 lbs, I'm not quite sure how you think he would be too big. Too heavy? Too tall? Neither of which are true. Skip was 6'0", 311 lbs. My understanding is Foster isn't worried about size as much as speed. You have to have the speed and ability to move between blocks and get into the backfield, not just eat blocks for your LBs and DEs to make all the plays. That was Nnadi's style and that's why we went after him.
First of all, Nnadi is the perfect size for a foster DT.
Not sure where you're coming from anywhere else...
1. Ekanem was a defensive end in high school - he was never moved there.
2. Keihn was a defesive end in high school, who played linebacker was part of the All America game stuff.
3. You're hearing Kevin Bronson to DT from bloggers, not the coaches yet.
You can't just move people to linebacker based on their size and expect them to contribute. It's an entirely different position. Linebacker is a tough position to play - you have to immediately diagnose the play and either attack your run-game assignment or drop into your coverage. If you're wrong, play action is over your head or you're going to be on your heels in the run game.
But, what you're saying has nothing to do with size and everything to do with speed. 6'5" 260 lb defensive ends wiith speed don't come around very often (Hello, Josh Sweat). Same for big linebackers who can cover.
Ekanem was a defensive end in high school - he was never moved there.
Bronson is a DT. He was recruited as a DT all the way. It's not just the bloggers.
Care to provide a source? I'm just curious, because he's officially listed as a DE.
A vast majority of Keihn's highlight film is as a middle linebacker. I watched Ekanem play in high school. He was a defensive end every down I watched in person for two games (except when he was playing tight end on offense.) I think we confuse what Rivals projects a player to be with what they want to do. Some examples are players that have been brought up. Caleb was a quarterback in high school. Every down quarterback. He wasn't going to be a QB in college, so you see a guy with his height and speed and say "receiver." Nick Dew was another guy. Every film I watched of the kid had him as a linebacker. He never adjusted to the safety or whip positions.
But, sometimes the position change leads to big things. See Kam Chancellor. We will know soon if the Teller and Smith moves pay off. Holland Fisher will be another player who has all-world talent, but his position of strength is a big question mark. Wait until you read my film review on him this week. Your head will spin when I say he may be a MIKE linebacker.
RE: Fisher
I think you are right on with this. I actually had this same conversation with some Hokie friends over email last week. Myself and another guy both said he would make a helluva Mike. Dude has the vision and mobility.
Does the lack of experienced DE depth scare anyone else other than me?
VT tends to do well with DEs. Dadi brings experience and for the second half of the season played on par or better than JR Collins. I think Dadi blows up this year.
There's a good bit of talent for the rest of the DEs. Marshall probably will switch back and forth. Besides Marshall have to remember that Ekanem was a highly coveted 4 star recruit that has a couple of years in the system and Mihota is a big kid that was a big time recruit as well. Seth Dooley has raised eyebrows apparently.
Dooley is one the most jacked defensive ends I've ever seen.
I have tempered expectations for Dadi this year. No doubt, he's the best athlete at the DE position. But there are 2 reasons I think he won't have a monster season. First, I don't know if he's big enough to be an every down DE. He's definitely more of a prototypical pass-rushing specialist and, at times, struggles against the run (like the Hundley TD in Sun Bowl). Second, I really hope he doesn't, but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets that junior year slump after a spectacular sophomore year, much like Gayle, Collins, and Hosely.
I would much prefer you to be right, and I hope Dadi has a season to remember.
Teams have had success with ligher pass rushing defensive ends. Barkevious Mingo was 240 at LSU. Dadi was 224 last year and presumably put on more weight in the offseason.
You beat me to the Mingo comparison!
Hopefully, Dadi learns to play under control this year. Last year there were a lot of plays where he was in the backfield so fast, was in position to make a play, and overran the QB or ball carrier. He overcommitted, and missed the tackle.
Turns out my good friend's knucklehead cousin attacked Nnadi via Twitter when he signed with the Noles. Not cool.
I will never understand what people think that achieves.
I think your problem here is assuming that people are always thinking.
A lot of these situations may be attributed to people not thinking.
I can't wait for Holland Fisher, straight up heat seeking missile. I hope he stays at safety.
I know, right? It feels like forever since we recruited him and all I've heard since then is that he's going to be the real deal.