I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it again, Virginia Tech athletics cannot survive in the current climate. It cannot survive being a hard line in the sand second or third class citizen in college athletics and expect to survive. Any remote semblance of success we have right now, we see everyone responsible for it poached by schools that can pay more and because of our TV deal, there is nothing we can do to stop it.
Kenny Brooks should not be leaving Blacksburg. The fact that he is because of money is a failure of our own administration as well as the leadership of the ACC. We cannot compete in the status quo. If the ACC collapses, going to the Big 12 will do nothing to solve this issue. There is nothing we can do to make up a $50m per year gap in revenue streams. You cannot build on success when we have to start over every time we sniff it because someone can buy those responsible from us.
I don't care what we have to do, I don't care who we have to stab in the back to make it work. Virginia Tech needs to look out for Virginia Tech and if there is any hope we can get into the P2 we need to join forces with Clemson and Florida State to make it happen.
And if the worst case happens and we are left behind, its time to have a come to Jesus moment where we realize that its probably not worth playing these financial games if there's this hard of a glass ceiling over anything we try to do.
Comments
Cool cool cool. Lemme know when you figure how to break the GoR. 'Til then this is just bitching into the wind.
At the very fucking least join the existing lawsuits.
Or we can sit around with our thumbs up our own asses and let us get completely left behind because we were too chicken shit to even try to look out for ourselves
I'm still waiting for the ACC to win the countersuit and all the lawsuit schools end up worse off. I don't think frivolous lawsuits are the path to freedom here. The path would have been to get half the schools to vote to dissolve the ACC but that ship sailed when we voted to let in SMU, Stanford, and Cal. I don't know where we go from here, I just don't see the point of going over this yet another time.
this is where I lost it. I was so discouraged, not only by the addition, but by the fact VT voted to add them. It was a clear and devastating admission of defeat.
I was holding out hope that the ACC would dissolve in the next couple years and the P2 life raft would scoop up VT among a couple other ACC schools. As soon as the ACC voted to add 3 more schools that don't remotely fit into the ACC (regionally, academically, culturally, etc. etc.) I gave up all hope that things would end well for VT. It's too late. VT has made too many missteps along the way, exacerbated by terrible ACC leadership. We could have joined the SEC in 2010 or 11. That was probably our best shot at averting this disaster. It would have been a 4D chess move at the time. Nobody could have really predicted everything going to complete shit quite as fast as it did in the 13 years since then. The GOR was a huge, scared-as-hell, chicken-shit move by the ACC that all but cemented the painful and embarrassing death of the league. Then, adding these last three teams sealed the fate. I would be surprised if any team currently in the ACC makes it to the P2 at any point in the future. Now we just have to stand by and watch as our athletic program dies of a thousand cuts over the next several years. Kenny Brooks leaving for Kentucky is only the beginning. All of our top talent (coaching and playing) will migrate to where the money and support is. The P2. We might be able to hire a few under-the-radar types who recruit some gem-in-the-rough types to make a flash-in-the-pan type of magical season in their respective sport but VT has officially become a stepping stone and any success that any sport has in the future will be impossible to maintain. And hard to come by to begin with.
I think you're right about all of that, but I'll note that the VT admin, who are probably plugged in to our options over the next 10 years, voted to "seal our fate" with those 3 new folks.
If you knew for an absolute fact that there was NO P2 in VT's future, you'd do what you could to plug holes in our current boat. Bringing in those 3 members does that, at the expense of the aesthetics of the boat itself.
I think it was a vote in hopes that Stanford or Cal would return the favor by sponsoring us for AAU admission
I doubt that was the reason but even if it was it's a dumb fucking reason. There's no way that two schools are going to move the needle to get VT AAU status. I've seen that theory bouncing around here before and it's tempting to want to believe that Sands extended that olive branch in hopes of getting some reciprocity. I don't think that's what happened. If it is, then Sands is much, much dumber than we think. That would be akin to giving a player 3 of your properties in Monopoly to give them 3 whole monopolies on the promise that you'll only be charged half rent when you land on one of them. Only an idiot would make that deal.
USF, ASU- both admit everyone that asks- are AAU schools. 100% overrated.
It probably is, but it is one possible ticket to the BIG10. At least that is the theory.
it may be true that they saw no viable path to the P2 but I still think sealing our fate in a dead league is a poor move. It's like realizing that you're definitely losing a piece in chess and choosing to sac your queen instead of your rook because it means picking up a pawn. If they were even looking at options to get into the P2 it would stand to reason that they understand the ACC is a bad place to be. But deciding to lock themselves into the ACC instead of leaving more options open (like, idk, the BigXII) because they didn't think they could get into the P2 is short sighted AF. It's like being trapped in a room on the 2nd floor of a building that is on fire and deciding that shutting the window and holding tight is a better option than leaving the window open and hoping you can jump out at the last minute to save yourself.
Here's the way I look at it. The ACC is viable until the GOR is broken. Once it is, all bets are off, and all hell breaks loose. Our best bet is to keep the ACC viable. Bringing in the west coast 3 helps there.
If/when the ACC implodes, all of us are freed, and we likely end up in the B12. I think the B12 is our floor in other words, and isn't endangered by trying to prop the ACC until the bitter end.
the BigXII might be a our floor now, but it'll be more valuable than the ACC by the time the GOR is broken. If I told 20 year old you that you could take job A making 80K per year NOW and maintain that salary until retirement or take a different job B starting at 60K per year but getting a 3% raise every year until retirement which would you choose?
If the GOR isn't broken and the ACC stays intact, we're better off in the ACC, for myriad reasons. The B12's contract comes up before ours (ignoring the 2027 ESPN option that I don't 100% understand) and at that point they won't be worth as much either.
Put another way, I think the B12 is a desperation, last resort for us. I support our admins making move to try and stay away from it.
I'm confused why the B12 is all of a sudden a potential path forward for any ACC school. They make less than the ACC per school on their current deal and they were just gutted of their most prized possessions. I would much rather continue on in the current ACC than go to any conference not named SEC or BIG 10. The ACC still pays out the 3rd highest revenue share albeit a far cry from what either P2 school is paying. My point is there is no better option for VT outside of the P2 than the ACC
Precisely.
Perception = reality. "The ACC sucks at everything" is the perception right now
This is unfortunately true. Even when we have the most teams remaining in the Sweet Sixteen, we're still a bad conference in a down year.
UNC, Duke, Clemson, and NC State are showing that the P2 aren't the best at everything right now.
And nobody is paying attention to that. It really doesn't matter how this season plays out, as soon as next season begins, ESPN is going to crank up the anti-ACC hype machine again with an agenda to destroy the conference and there is really nothing we can do about it. When they crank it up, perception becomes reality. Selection committees get swayed and undefeated ACC champions get left out of the CFB playoff and we get about half the NCAA tournament selections we should. All so the rich can keep getting richer.
this may continue to be true, at least until the money disparity becomes so large, the SEC can buy whoever they want at any price...
Even so, is the perception that any other conference besides P2 is better than us? Even if the ACC sucks, there are options that are definitely worse (people do NOT think G5 conferences are better than the ACC). It would help the ACC if Clemson was still winning Natty's every other year and FL State was consistently good. We're on our way to being better, so the perception of the ACC could improve.
People absolutely think the Big 12 is better in both football and basketball and the Big East and possibly even Mountain West in basketball
Reasons why at this moment I would prefer to be in the Big 12 : 1. BC, Pitt and Syracuse aren't in the Big 12. 2. Notre Dame doesn't have their hooks in the Big 12 for football. 3. Perception. 4. Louisville and GT aren't in the Big 12.
What?
I'd absolutely prefer the ACC over the Big 12.
I LIKE playing Notre Dame. It's good for ticket sales, they're a quality opponent.
With the exception of GT (for personal reasons), I agree with every one of these.
I really don't know how much any teams improving helps. The narrative is the ACC is bad at football and basketball and its continually perpetuated no matter how our teams perform.
Winning ALWAYS matters.
FSU got snubbed last year, but had they not lost their QB, the ACC would absolutely have had a shot at the Championship.
Just win, baby.
Look at MBB we went from a weak conference that happened to have the most teams in the sweet 16 and they just shifted the narrative to "top heavy" which anyone with two eyes knows is BS but it doesn't matter what the actual results are if everyone's selling your stock and no ones buying. The ACC is toast and having a team here and there make a run only drags out the process at this point.
I'd rather drag it out than crash and burn like the Pac 10 did.
VT still has sports, TV revenue, and I can watch the games from Germany. So it's not all bad.
As a bonus, we even had a women's basketball team for a couple of years. I've got a final four flag to prove it.
just give it 10 years. That will change.
Why though? Who is carrying the Big 12 banner now without Oklahoma and Texas? The ACC still has Duke, UNC, FSU, Clemson, Miami, VT (if we ever get back to our 10 win season ways). We're a much more entertaining and supported product than the Big 12.
Nah. The B12 is in the exact same boat as us, with fewer big name brands we've (currently) got. The B12 is likely more stable, for now, but will that change in 2031 when their contract is renewed for a fraction of its current value?
The countersuit is much weaker than the lawsuits brought by FSU and Clemson (not that I think their claims are strong). The lawsuits will not be found to be frivolous. And the lawsuits are probably the best path to a better understanding of what it will take to be free of the ACC beyond a complete dissolution.
I don't think joining the suit does anything except state your long-term intention. I'm not sure if there is benefit in that at this moment for VT, but I can see there could be some benefit.
There are 4 paths in front of us in diminishing order of preference:
Does it make sense to sue our number two choice with our number 1 choice being totally out of our control and, imo, highlight unlikely? I don't know the answer, but I don't think it's as simple as "joining the existing lawsuits".
Yep. If I am VT I start negotiating our exit- alone- from the ACC GOR. Tell them we want a fee to leave. And leave.
Hard agree.
I think VT's fate is much less in the hands of Whit + Sands and much more in the hands of the P2 Presidents and ADs.
At this point, adding teams for them only dilutes $$$ unless that team creates enough revenue to justify the monetary distribution or they are willing to take a partial-share.
In the ACC there are a few "probables" FSU, UNC, Miami that have enough money and media attention to be immediately attractive. There are a few obvious No's--Wake, BC, Syracuse. And then pretty much everyone else in limbo.
No, I dont think Clemson is a shoe-in, because they have little to offer other than FB and they have been fading from being a Nationally relevant Program--the fact that Bama didn't even kick the tires on Dabo tells you what the opinion is of his prospects going forward.
And some of the things VT can do to become more attractive (divert academic money to Athletics, create entire fake Departments ala UNC)-- I'm not sure I care for as a VT Grad--I do have some pride in the integrity of my Degree.
I'm very close to tuning out on College Sports--I've barely watched the Tourney this year and other than VT football, consume minimal other CFB media.
I agree on the Clemson being stuck somewhat. They are further from AAU membership than we are, and I doubt the SEC actually wants them.
Have Sands and Whit tried pronouncing they are leaving the ACC like Michael Scott did with bankruptcy?
Technically, I think they would need to declare it.
To second HokieinFLA - this is absolutely not in Sands or Babcock's control. All they can do is be ready if an invite comes our way.
Also, the vitriol I see thrown Sands' way is insanity. His job is to run the entire university, and while athletics are important, they are NOT the most important piece of his job. I have met him a few times at Hokie Club events and I have no idea where people get this impression that he doesn't care about athletics. He knows it's a window to the school as a whole, but the school is his first priority.
You are correct, however athletics has ruined academics in today's world. Its ALL about the money you can raise to pay players and coaches.
If it wasn't for athletics, VT wouldn't have seen a surge in applications over the 1999-2010 timeframe with momentum that continues today. It is literally because of football that VT has become what it currently is
The vitriol that's thrown Sand's way comes from this odd perception that he wants to turn us into Berkeley east (and all the cultural things that implies).
The vitrol I throw his way is that VT has won zero championships in anything. You have to TRY to not win a Natty in something. Starts at the top.
If you told me we would become one of the 10 best public schools in the country I'd sign up for that 1000X over
And I guarantee 99% of the people that have cultural fears have never set foot in Berkeley
I think it's hard to argue that our administration is aligned between academics and athletics and that is where the vitriol come from
True. They even have different logos.
You Win! lmao I needed this
*sources needed*
Well Whit has one job of he wants to have a job in the near future. Sands has a different task, but clearly academics is helped by the increased applications that come with athletics successes. If East Coast Stanford is the goal, it got easier when Stanford was left out of the P2, now we just have to find a way in.
We need to invest hundreds of millions of dollars to watch young adults play games with inflatable balls.
aaaand now you're on a watch list.
In a spreadsheet at the very least
This really feels like the final blow. I had given up ever being competitive at football. Thought we could carve out a niche in a corner of the world with wbb. Tons of fan support, lots of $$ spent, and the money spilling over from football means we can't have this either. I almost hope the end comes quickly and I can just ignore college sports all together. The hope I have for VT is just painful.
Well they have my money for Football and WBB next year, I already renewed my tickets...
I think it hurts even more because the tenure of the womens players actually allowed us to get to know them as people and more than just players.... and now its gone
Now that they've murked the whole reason that we all came here - and stayed here - can we all still be friends?
Does this whole P2 thing implode before the ACC GoR expires? It certainly feels like the status quo, much less the acceleration, is untenable in the long term. I doubt ESPN will control the narrative forever and everyone is saying they're hemorrhaging money like a stuck pig.
I think I'd be more surprised if VT athletics kept pumping more money in the program indefinitely vs if they decided to scale back and go back to a regional/fcs thing.
Yes the P2 collapses under its own weight at some point. They've turned off too many fans and young people aren't as interested in sports. Too much competition in the entertainment world. My opinion is legalized gambling was a lifeline to the sporting world. All that being said, there is a saying in the investment world: the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
The implications here are that maybe the P2 goes on for 10 years before it collapses. VT will be irrelevant by then.
I think the heart of the frustration for VT fans is the realization that there aren't any good options. Fans want to blame the administration but I fail to see what path they can chart.
I think the P2 crashes when the first SEC or B1G contract comes up for renewal and they offer them half of what they are getting now.
At some point you wonder if the P2 will realize that a bigger slice of a smaller cake may have been a mistake. All those leagues they dissed may well stop spending their Saturdays watching a league that they have no stake in.
I know I tuned out of March Madness when VT was no longer a participant. And I feel the same about NCAA sports, to the degree that VT and the ACC are excluded.
Maybe the ACC is regional, but the region is sort of the whole United States. And I don't really care about Alabama football or basketball if they never play VT.
There must be dozens of us who feel this way.
I'm ok with the collapse.
I agree with your general take, but I think there's two things that aren't mentioned in these conversations:
My guess is Clemson and FSU probably know the GoR is tight, and that they're actually just trying to get press attention to the bad deal and then find something embarrassing to ACC leadership during discovery. They know it's a sinking ship, but want the captain to die first.
Yea this is my thought - either they (a) find something, (b) get support from the media, or (c) use their frustration to demand more money from the ACC - none of those things are planned exits.
There's a saying "Money talks, but wealth whispers" that I feel is analagous here. If FSU had a plan, they would not have spent 2 years complaining. They would have just moved conferences.
FSU and Clemson are running PR campaigns. They are not doing anything that actually brings them closer to exiting the ACC.
FSU and Clemson have to pressing the other schools to dissolve the ACC prior to the end of June addition of Cal, Stanford, and SMU.
/s
The real geniuses here are the lawyers. They will make bank while Clemson/FSU/UNC spin their wheels with pointless lawsuits. Doesn't matter who loses, the lawyers always win.
To be fair, this is probably the point, really.
Lawsuits. The gift that keeps on giving (to the lawyers).
Howard Johnson is right.
VT should join with Clemson and FSU in this noble but misguided pursuit of a reasonable outcome.
But just in spirit, of course, as the reality is that we can save a lot on legal costs by letting Clemson and FSU do the heavy lifting and lawyer-paying, as all the other ACC teams would get any benefit derived from the decision.
In the mean time, Pry needs to keep working on making VT football better.
Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
And we're just the guys to do it.
While I agree that finding some way into the SEC or Big 10 would be the best chance for VT athletics to stay relevant, I think the idea that is the only option for survival is somewhat of an (understandable) overreaction. Personally being a fan of VT FB has almost nothing to do with the teams we play or ability to compete for a national championship. Obviously I have preferences for those things but I'm actually still a fan because VT FB was important to me and the friends that I had when I was younger and it reminds me of a time I remember being happier. There isn't any amount of difference in the resources that VT has relative to other schools or resulting losses that would break that emotional connection and keep me from wanting to see VT win and having at least a passing interest in news about the team. I think VT has enough fans and alumni with the same (in many cases stronger than my own) emotional connection to the school and teams that there will continue being money to be made selling and advertising things to those people (at least for the next several decades until we die), even if VT became permanently nationally irrelevant tomorrow and never acquired a single new sports fan. I think that fan base gives VT a decent chance of being included in the haves, but even if VT is left out of the P2 and put in a more difficult position going forward, any number of things could happen before all interest in VT athletics is lost that could change the current dynamics of the SEC and Big 10 being the seemingly only options.
This is, of course, true.
VT is an established athletics brand, and there will always be room for that. No doubt the teams in the top half of the ACC will remain profitable for the long term.
It's just pretty irritating that the P2 is trying to steal all the big money and keep it for themselves. You know, for the benefit of the student athletes.
I know you typed that tongue in cheek. I just wanted to emphasis this more.
This whole process is destroying the future of thousands of kids to attend college in the future. That's a real shame. The impact to future society will never be known as you don't know whom might be lost that could be the smart person that invents something that helps save society for the better.
Yes, this will also help force more kids out of high school to the trades and running their own small business, which will be a benefit. But the larger point stands.
Basically, the question is, are you okay with VT football being the same as App State or Boise football?
I'll still be a fan if/when VT is formally and perminantly designated to be a mid-tier FBS team. But I'd rather go to the SEC.
I'll still be a fan, but I seriously doubt I'd be as invested in it. Starting to lose interest already.
To be clear I don't want VT to be left out and more officially mid-tier, and think VT should take any opportunity to join the SEC. It has just been sad reading about people losing interest when being a fan doesn't feel like a choice to me. Even in the worst possible scenario over the next 5 years, 15 years later unforeseen market forces could drive another wave of realignment and at that time VT will probably still have enough fans to have another chance of being reincluded in the top tier. No longer watching VT games if the team ends up in a mid tier conference would be like me turning off the game down 3 TDs in the 4th quarter.
Totally agree. Anytime I get to go to or watch a VT football game, it's a treat. But Obviuosly, it's way more exciting when there's buzz around the program.
*the gang crashes the big12
Talking to Big12 fans.
Right now this is how I feel about the whole situation....
I dont know if being P2 will help at all. I really feel like until we can get to a single conference for the power teams (top 65ish) where divisions go back to regional and there is anti-trust exemption the whole thing is going to crash. Being in the SEC when it crashes isn't going to help, we just might make some more money for a couple years.
Watching both basketball programs implode because we cannot financially compete with either coaching salaries or NIL deals, it couldn't be more clear. Get into a high revenue conference, or our entire athletic department will die on the vine.
We cannot compete with ACC revenues. We won't be able to compete with Big 12 revenues. If that is our future, we are done.
And even Kenny Brooks knows it
That's a hell of a quote. I think it's official. VT is toast. I just have a hard time giving a fuck anymore
Funny, this is something we were saying about 22 years ago, but with a much different context.
22 years ago it wasn't legal to pay for play.
Man, even Florida's AD with their SEC revenue streams is saying they'll have to cut Olympic sports to remain competitive
Orlando Sentinel article
How does the VT athletic department survive if even the high revenue entities are already saying messages like this? We have to get into a P2 conference, we have to.
That's kind of the point, something has to give because all the money earned goes everywhere but to the players. The stadiums are bigger and nicer than the NFL. The coaching staff partly is on par with the NFL. The locker rooms are nicer than the NFL. The weight rooms are nicer thant the NFL.
The NFL doesn't build juice bars. VT has recarpeted their meeting rooms 3 times since the last time the redskins did it (redskins finally upgraded this year).
There will have to be a repriorization of money, but UGA spends more than $1 per recruit and UF can't be that far behind based on what Napier was hired to do. That's $250,000 a year right there. The money exist you just have to rebudget.
Exactly. These crazy coaching salaries and Nick Saban-model massive support staffs are going to get nuked when revenue sharing enters the equation.
I would expect the money spent per recruit would be higher. Just in mailings I would think they spend more than that in postage. Take into accounts visits and "camp" invites you start getting into $Ks.
I think this makes sense. They have been finding ways to spend the insane profits on things for years. Of course if you started having a payroll of 10M for a football teams players each year you dont have that lying around. You may have that available if you dont spend have personal chefs and individual coaches and tutors for every single player.
They have been spending the excess of cash on things that incrementally help improvement or recruiting, but can reallocate when its time to directly pay players instead. Maybe Clemson doesnt apend $200M on a lazy river and arcade for the football team