Per Twitter
BREAKING: Virginia Tech G/F Tyler Nickel plans to enter the transfer portal, per @ChrisArvin_247 The 6'7 sophomore averaged 8.8 points, 2.2 rebounds and shot 39.9% from three-point range this seasonOriginally from Harrisonburg, Virginia, started his college career at North... pic.twitter.com/nZFHOdT0Mc— Kolby Crawford (@kolby_crawford) March 28, 2024
BURN IT ALL DOWN 🔥
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Kah-Boom!!!!!
sigh
This is a joke at this point
At this point, CMY should just force everyone in the portal and we start anew
open roster.xls
CTRL-A
DEL
CTRL-S
ALT-F4
All bag money must be going to football. Nothing left for MBB or WBB.
All in, I guess.
it's a party in my portal and everyone's invited!
So, either he's a grad transfer, he plans to sit for a year, or he's expecting a coaching change.
No transfer rules anymore. He can go where he wants
I actually think the senator is right on this one. He transferred from UNC (no coaching change or anything) to us. You get one free transfer excluding extenuating circumstances like your coach leaving or getting fired. I think he'll have to sit a year if I'm not mistaken?
So Bamisile had 4 extenuating circumstances? lmfao.
Denials of immediate eligibility and extenuating circumstances only happen if they're trying to come to VT
Nope. This is what the current case brought by Virginia and Tennessee against the NCAA negates. Blocking transfers for any reason restricts athletes right more than normal students and limits their earning capability by not allowing them free movement.
While I understand the general thought process here, the application of this is what I think is one of the central frauds of the NIL era.
Preventing unlimited transfers flatly doesn't restrict athletes more than other students. Other students don't have the ability to market themselves for NIL. If I wanted to leave VT for NCSU during college for some random reason, I would have gotten to pay tuition..plus tacked on O.O.S. costs.
But the same athletes who are being "restricted" don't want to give up their free tuition, room, and academic counseling either--none of which are available to "normal" students.
Its a classic eat your cake and have it too scenario. While they clearly have benefits not available to normal students, Athletes also want to play "woe is me" and compare themselves to regular students when it suits their narrative. And we all accept this like it makes any sense.
100% agree. These ruling are faulty. The players don't have to participate in college sports, there are minor leagues in the US and pro leagues with varying talent levels all over the world who sign American players. A league should be able to establish parameters that encourage stability - particularly a developmental league where a player's "value" can change rapidly from one year to the next.
unfortunately it's what we are stuck with for the time being. At this point I'm surprised the NCAA can define (& enforce with refs) traveling rules on the court without being hit with an anti-trust violation.
It doesn't seem far off at this point--calling a traveling violation on a player restricts his ability to increase his scoring average and maximize his NIL value..therefore traveling can no longer exist..lol.
Based on watching games, I'm not sure basketball refs have even HEARD of traveling-much less able to define or enforce it at all.
I mean, that was the point of the original ruling, other students do have every right to use their "Name, Image and Likeness" to make money. The fact that no one cares to pay them for any of those things doesn't mean they don't have the right. Athletes did not have that right, and that was messed up.
The fact that immediately pivoted to pay for play was obviously going to happen, and, sure, muddies the water. But the idea that somehow we're starting to double back to "Who do they think they are, wanting to get paid?" seems not good. These kids are part of a billion dollar industry. They should be paid. We just shouldn't be weird about doing it. Let them get paid. Do some kind of collective bargaining sport by sport maybe. Treat it like the big business that it is. This is a bad middle ground that we landed in because no one bothered to plan a neat landing.
More accurately, we're here because we continue to insist on pretending this is an amateur endeavor. When we proceed on that conceit, we're unable to put in place the kinds of things pro leagues can like salary caps, free agency and the like.
We're won't go the last 10 yards and become pro because part of the romance and charm is in the illusion of amateurism.
I thought (and still think) the logical way to organize compensation for College athletes was to let them sign with agents and seek whatever shoe/apparel/ect endorsements they could get.
That way, IMG, Nike, Adidas, are providing compensation and not fans being prodded to donate to NIL Collectives..which are probably only surpassed by NFTs as a money-draining scam.
I had no problem with the original ruling...athletes obviously should get paid for their likeness to be used in video games, for jerseys and other merchandise, and for appearances. But what is being practiced now is decidedly not NIL. And I have a major issue with every attempt that is made to reign in this chaos being met by an injunction because its somehow limiting these "poor athletes."
I guess I just don't like the framing. They don't have to be poor or beleaguered to have rights. And if the only reason you're mad about them exercising those rights is because the team you like has players in the portal, that seems like it might be on you man.
How do you propose that they differentiate between an apparel company paying them and a local car dealership? Or a local car dealership and a group of fans that want them to show up for a signing? It's just an impossible line to draw, because theoretically there's a value to any of those things. And the last thing is basically an NIL collective.
I am also not happy about the state of Tech basketball, but this is doubling back hard to something very close to just opposing players getting paid for their value. If that's how you feel, fine. I just disagree pretty strongly.
Thats kinda the point...the vast majority were never poor or beleagured.
And for every athlete who is having their rights "trampled" there are 10 bright, hardworking, and economically disadvantaged pedestrian students who would run through a brick wall to have a full scholly.
One of my best friends at VT was one of them...class all day, work all night and tutoring on the side to actually have some free cash occasionally..drove a beater car that I luckily was able to help her keep running for 4 years.
So the athlete sob story and the idea that a full ride with free tutoring and a stipend every semester just isn't enough just kind of falls flat for me.
The athletes are giving an obvious value to the university. In pure monetary terms. Until very recently, for free. The bright, disadvantaged student isn't. They're getting a clear value from the university. Could/should we use some athletics money to subsidize non-athlete students? Sure. That would be great. But that's just not what we're talking about.
Also, nothing is stopping the poor student from transferring if they get a scholarship (full or not) somewhere else. Until recently, athletes were prevented from doing that. I get what you're saying, but I feel like you're insisting that athletes are just students as opposed to unpaid (by the university) participants in a GIANT industry. That hasn't been true for a while, and it's just increasingly not true. But instead of diverting the money from the TV deals to the people actually providing the TV content we're pulling it from donors and fans.
Ok...what percentage are actually creating this "value" and how do we calculate that?
Does the third-string OT bring more value than a 3.9 Student working nights in a research lab on projects that are receiving Govt. Grant Money? You do realize that without Grants and Reaserch dollars, 95% of U.S. Universities couldn't keep their doors open, right?
Truth is probably no more than 10% of the athletes at any particular program really have marketable NIL. And I'm all for them being able to capitalize on that.
But I'm not in for 17 year olds who haven't stepped foot on the field getting 5- and 6-figure "NIL" deals just for showing up.
I'm not in for guys like Kadyn Proctor with zero integrity taking advantage of the system and then hearing how its unfair to restrict transfers in any way.
The student is paying (handsomely) to obtain something with clear value---a degree. The Scholarship Athlete has the opportunity to obtain that same degree for free which not only creates value for them but does not saddle them with debt for 10-15 years forward. So the economic value is probably double or more the cost of the scholarship once interest is factored in. Lets also try to keep in mind more than 98% of college athletes will never make a dollar in professional sports and after 4 years they have just as little value as a lowly student who can't run real fast or dribble a ball well.
And this is my other major quarrel with NIL proponents. A belief that somehow the mess we have now is going to lead to College Athletes getting some sort of profit-sharing of the TV money when this "system" inevitably collapses--- Never. Going. To. Happen. Ever.
I think it's a shame that my son has worked his ass off to maintain a 4.39 high school GPA and isn't eligible for NIL. He did get $2,500 in scholarships though but i'm still paying roughly $25K a year for him to attend VT (with room and board, technology fees and the engineering surcharge bullshit).
Jay Bilas argues that your son can get sponsored by some big company to study hard and get paidand he could also get a job at CookOut. Slave labor athletes can't do that. That's what got us here.
I tried getting him a T&F scholarship; sadly he wasn't fast enough
Your son (and every other college student) is eligible for NIL. College athletes were NOT until the past few years. That was the whole thing. If you had a non-athlete student who had a large social media following, they could be paid for their posts, or appearances, or whatever. Athletes could not have been. Athletes are naturally going to be more in demand, because they're athletes, and whether you can separate true "name, image, and likeness" from them being athletes (you can't), is a whole separate thing.
It sucks that college costs so much. It is a very real problem in America. But it's not the fault of the student-athletes.
My son also isn't on scholarship, have his room and board paid for, all his meals and a stipend on top of that either
So athletes shouldn't be able to get more, because they already get, "enough"? Nobody is mandating schools pay athletes with NIL, they're just taking the cap off, and letting them be paid what people are willing to pay them. If schools don't want to give them scholarships, there's Division III. We all could have gotten scholarships if we were good enough at something, but we weren't. That doesn't mean the ones that were don't deserve it if someone's willing to provide it. They're not "entitled" to it, or what have you, but if the opportunity is there, why shouldn't they be able to take advantage?
Agree here. The biggest value to the schools from revenue sports, aside from advertising and exposure for prospective students, is the conference tv revenue, which is largely driven by the top "brand" programs in the conference. BC, Wake, Cuse etc. are not bringing a whole lot of value to the ACC deal. Same with Vandy, Miss St, Missouri in the SEC. And those top brand programs tend to get most of the best talent annually, which helps build the perception that they are good teams and builds the brand recognition.
Honestly it's mostly about the school's branding that drives the value. The level of talent is irrelevant and set by the competition - if other schools are recruiting talented players, then you follow suit and pursue the same caliber talent as your competitors. Fans of college football watch games because of the brand of the teams playing, not primarily because of individual players. There are exceptions for extraordinary/generational talents and especially big name QBs or one and done type basketball players. But for the most part, this has nothing to do with actual value brought to the schools, it's just set by the market and the perceptions of what other schools are willing to pay. Most players entering the portal don't end up faring better than they were. And NIL for high school recruits is a joke - it's simply pay for play, there is little NIL value for 99% of high school recruits.
Yes, I work in a field that is funded by research grants. Several associated with Tech in fact. I know how universities work. And that person working nights in a research lab is getting paid. By the university. Something that you seem weirdly adverse to. So, sure, there's value there. 1. Again, that person is getting paid, and 2. The name that is generating the value is a professor. Who, again, is getting paid. We're also talking about two separate markets, drawing money from two separate wells. If the random undergrad had a national audience it would be a more apples to apples comparison.
All of this, and I'm combining your first two pull quotes now, seems wrapped up in a moral judgement that your hypothetical 3.9 student is doing more valuable work. Which may well be true from a societal standpoint. But that isn't how markets work. You calculate the value by what people are willing to pay. And your judgement that one bit of work is worth less than the other doesn't carry a lot of weight against what people are willing to pay.
And lastly, I don't think I agree with you on the direct payment. I think it'll be hard to avoid from here. The reasons to not just pay athletes are fading rapidly. I don't think it'll be a direct profit sharing, but indirectly in the form of payment by the universities seems inevitable.
There's no point drawing this out endlessly, but your statement was that the disadvantaged student doesn't create value for a University...which is patently false.
Yes, you can get paid for research lab work...usually slightly more than minimum wage if an Undergrad.
If the disadvantaged student is successful, they may get the opportunity to become a GTA which aids them financially but also saves the University tons of $$$ as they oversee a significant proportion of Undergrad classes. GTAs fit the exact definition of the "free labor" that is such a moral quandary for College Athletics.
I have no moral judgment to pass on Athletes, they work damn hard and put their bodies on the line. Some of them do truly create monetary value for the colleges they compete for and they deserve compensation commiserate with that value.
But the idea that incoming Freshman should be paid merely for the fact that one day they might create money for the University is absurd.
As is allowing them to move from school to school with zero restriction or oversight whatsoever. What Proctor did to Iowa borders on embezzlement and is exactly why rules are needed.
The problem with that line of thinking is they weren't giving value to the University for free. They were getting a full ride, room & board, free meals, books, tutoring, and a financial stipend as well.
YES they absolutely do. Student influencers and social media entreprenuers are very much a thing (source, source, source). And yes, in some cases, universities will pay student influencers directly to create content (souce).
Now, I recognize that there is not a collective driven marketplace that pays regular students to go to school under the guise of an endorsement. However, regular students are not doing activites that non-educational corporations pay billions to televise. No one is waging hundreds of thousands of dollars to see if little Braydon is going to get over/under a 89.5% on his Physics test.
If you want to Atheltes to be students, then they should enjoy all the benefits that students get to enjoy, including accepting money (as taxable income) from random people. If you want Athletes to be employees, then allow them to bargain, search for better paying jobs, and get paid directly from their employer, just like every other employee in this country. We can't ask athletes to be students, then selective apply limitations based on what is best for the cartel.
Every breathing human has the opportunity to not go to college where they will be exploited and not get their entitlement money. Everyone chooses to go to college. Nobody is forced to.
So, here's the rub:
Today - due to (a) US antitrust laws and (b) the rejection of centralized authority throughout the entire history of the sport - we are seeing competitive imbalanced.
The solution is not to stop paying players. The solution is to embrace centralized authority and collective bargaining.
Lock it in. Little Braydon ALWAYS covers.
I 100% totally agree that athletes should be able to earn income based on their NIL. If Carson Beck wants to start a PodCast or YouTube channel, he should get compensated just as MrBeast or any other "influencer."
But there has to be an acknowledgment that there is clearly a difference between an influencer making independent content and a college athlete bouncing around from school to school trying to capitalize on "NIL" without any regulation whatsoever. If their brand is so strong, then they should be able to continue to be able to be profitable even if they have to sit out a year.
But that ignores the 800 pound gorilla in the room---that a substantial portion of NIL is tied to the name on the front of the jersey rather than the one on the back.
Here's a thought experiment....
Bobby Smith is star QB #8 for Georigia and you walk into a Sporting Goods store.
On one rack is an officially licensed UGa Jersey with a random number on the back.
On the other is a generic red, white, and black jersey with "Smith 8" on the back.
Both are priced the same. Which one do we think sells out first?
The other problem I have here is there is a market for these Athletes that is highly lucrative--they are called Professional sports leagues. Problem is very few have the skills to make money at this level, yet we have decided they deseve to be compensated like they all have that ability.
By that same logic, shouldn't we be giving evryone in Business school NIL because some small percentage of them will become CEOs or other wealthy executives and donate generously to the Institution in the future?
There are different rules for normal students...well, there were. There's nothing saying Jimmy can't be CEO of a company making widgets while getting his business degree. In fact, there are tons of stories about that exact case. And you aren't required to graduate in order to work in some industries. You go to college to better your chances at a higher salary, but if the right opportunity calls (like for a 3rd string QB that leaves mid-semester to go work full time) then you take it.
Plus, there are opportunities for internships, working throughout the year, and getting a job because of who you know. Comparing athletes to the normal student population isn't apples to apples.
Which is kind of the exact point. The claim is that it is unfair to restrict Athletes from transferring completely freely is based on the stance that general student are not restricted in the same way.
Which is largely my contention--the argument changes based on whether it fits the "NIL is great" viewpoint or not.
It's not apples to apples because Johnny engineering student doesn't feel entitled to millions of dollars, typically.
Also, Johnny Engineering Student isn't brining in millions to the school
Neither is Johnny football player at VT apparently
Look, there is clearly a market for paying 'college' athletes - otherwise they wouldn't get this kind of money. All I'm suggesting is that we stop with the NIL/Collective facade and schools pay athletes directly.
Just like Facebook pays the best engineers to work there, schools could do the same fire the best (eligible) athletes. No one cares about the name of the engineers at facebook. They are still vital to the operation.
There are 5 levels of pro soccer in England. I think we could have minor league football in America and it would be no different from what we have today
Didn't really understand that ruling at first - thanks for the clarification!
Definitely fucking blows for us
Edit - also, why the fuck would the state of Virginia bring this lawsuit? Didn't everyone realize all our programs would get big dogged like this?
the NCAA has basically removed the sit-out rule entirely... due to a lawsuit
0% chance of a coaching change, CMY's buyout is $6M, we can't afford that.
We can't afford ramen it seems
Hey, don't knock spaghetti soup. Fast, cheap, delicious. Did I mention cheap?
Someone say soup?
Maybe he will enter the portal too for a bigger bag and we don't have to worry about it /s
Don't have to buy out a retiree... just saying...
LOL fuck you Jay Bilas you fucking fuck. I hope you are happy.
We seriously better hope the investment in football pays off and gets us into the P2. If not VT might not ever live down the embarrassment. Might as well fold all athletics at that point.
Speaking of, Jack Hollifield transfering to app state
When is the hokiebird entering the transfer portal?
This one stings a little extra. VHSL all-time scoring leader "coming home" from UNC was a cool story.
Until Clemson offered him more bag. Cool stories don't exist anymore.
Tech's basketball teams might be good enough to beat the Blacksburg High teams next season. Ok I did say might!
I hope most of these kids are smart enough to realize (regardless of what their family, friends, etc. think) that they have no hope of ever making it professionally, so they're just trying to grind out whatever cash they can get. I don't fault them at all if that's the case. If someone wants to completely overpay for subpar talent that has a limited shelf-life, hump it for what it's worth and get a degree in the process.
Then you have the kids that are so egotistical that they think their brand or stock is low because of their situation. Normally, those people are the problem and just don't realize it. Good luck, they'll probably be transient their entire career.
I hate where this is headed for our school, but I also love watching these programs throw every resource possible and still produce a complete piece of dogshit.
I might be in the minority here, but with how NIL has affected things, I do not wish any of these players well or "best of luck" if they are in fact leaving for monetary reasons.
If they want to be treated as an adult and make money (on top of all the other perks and benefits you get for being a scholarship athlete), then you also have to deal with the repercussions (not that they care) of not being liked once they enter the portal.
They are free to do as they wish and that is fine, but if I want to criticize them for being money chasers believing they're more important than they really are, than I should be able to do so.
Get rid of this "commitment" talk. No one is ever committed anymore. It's annoying to give out scholarships for these "adults" that are only going to stick around 9 months and jet when the next nice shiny thing comes along. Maybe we make scholarships a contractually binding agreement that you will in fact attend university for a minimum of two years whilst playing your sport, otherwise, they're just stealing scholarships that could be better suited for more loyal players.
Maybe we have both a NIL players and scholarship players pool. The NIL players are free to come, stay, and go as they please via Transfer Portal. But at least it will be known they're a flight risk. Whereas scholarship signers may be a more reliable, long term piece to the team.
But with 6 or 7 players in the portal and the majority of them being here only a year (if that) then I don't feel any obligation to wish them well when they opt out and get picked up. I don't wish injury on anyone, but with that exception, part of me could careless if they don't ever see the court or get playing time ever again.
I'm allowed to hate professional athletes without getting shamed for it, now that these college players are "professional", why can't I hate on them just the same?
I mean, I don't think people should say you shouldn't hate them, but if we are going to treat them like adults, if a head hunter comes to me and gets me a job offer saying I can make 3x, 4x, 5x, hell I'd take 30% more than what I am, then fuck my current place for that. The days of being rewarded for loyalty in the work place are gone so not surprising to see it happen once athletes start getting paid.
If your boss came to you and said "Hey we can only offer you 10% of what we gave you last year" and then another company said "hey, we can offer you a 100% or 200% increase over last year" and it's in an albeit flexible but regulated window for your earning capacity, you wouldn't think about it? Kidd, if he really is getting $500+K for one year is getting 10 years of average US salary in one fell swoop. How can you fault someone for that?
Virginia Tech wasn't loyal to them so why do they owe it to us?
Then sign 1 year "contracts" and don't give them scholarship. If he can make 500k to play 9 months of basketball, he can pay his tuition and housing and meals on his own. And the kids that will stay long term at school can get the scholarships to off set the lack of any potential NIL.
And I'm not saying they aren't allowed to test the market, but when they bail, why should we have to tip toe around their feelings and treat them like they made some sort of hardened sacrifice and thank them for their service as they walk out the door. Part of me wouldn't be upset if in all their large lecture halls kids chant "sell out" when they walk through the doors into McBryde.
Frankly what is happening now in revenue sports, endless transfers and NIL pay for play is absolutely redefining what it means to be a college athlete. Have the best of the best being getting paid for years? Sure. But now everybody has a chance to get a bag. Gone is the illusion that every Tom Dick and Hannah that suited up in the maroon and orange was doing it for the love of the school. For every Sam Rogers and Dax Hollifield (I mostly follow football) that wore that pride on their sleeve there are probably 20 or 30 players that would've gladly suited up anywhere else if they got paid for it.
I agree and those players where you see the effort and sacrifice their entire collegiate career are the ones I respect.
My main point is, if you're one of the guns for hire, jumping school to school for a possible payout, then the minute you insert the Transfer Portal, you're now the enemy and I am unbothered if fans turn and start chirping at you via social media.
Oh, I think more than social media griping is required here. I say, the moment you enter the transfer portal, you are no longer enrolled at VT. Scholly? Rescinded immediately. Give them 48 hours to reapply to VT, evict them if they are living on campus and invalidate their student ID cards until they are accepted and paid up for room, board and tuition like any other student. Middle of the semester? People drop out all the time so tough, you can take those classes again when you find another school. Don't want us? Well, we don't want you, so drop off the key, Lee...
It will unfortunately have to be this way for the schools that aren't able to give 500k to a middle of the road ACC big man. It is now a business transaction and in my world if you leave for a competitor your desk is cleared that day and all access to company assets are pulled.
Yep, and then the campus cops can escort them to the edge of town and wish them a less than fond farewell.
Because in America if you are 19 and can throw a football, you are entitled to millions of dollars in college of course. That is the elephant in the room nobody is talking about. You want to argue that a senior researcher at VT can get paid by a company and athletes can't- what mide/level average researcher is getting paid a half million dollars to transfer from VT to do research for U of Miami? none. It's a joke what these kids feel they are entitled to these days. Go professional if you think you are entitled to millions to dribble a basketball.
The craziest part about it is that this has created an atmosphere that the is trash for fans. I don't want to watch a new team every year wear the same jersey. The whole fun of college sports was watching freshmen become seniors and what they are able to accomplish at my alma mater.
I will not tune in to watch ohio state pro play alabama pro. I will watch FCS VT play FCS West VA.
The NCAA gets billions from Turner/CBS to put on March Madness - arguably the second most popular sporting event in America. That is a fact. When you take out the millions is takes to put the torunament on- travel, venues, referrees, security, media, etc. It's not a shocking, but its alot of money. From there, the NCAA uses that money to put on other championships - like Women's hoops- that aren't paid billions from Turner. I won't mention swimming and diving, wrestling- which are paid zero dollars from Turner. But people make a false dichotomy that this money should go to the players- because without them, there is no march madness- true in terms of "these" players. There will be new players next year of course and it will be more popular than ever. The missing piece is that this tournament gives players a platform that they couldn't buy. Exposure they couldn't buy. So instead of a reasonable compromise, we went full chaos - nobody wants to acknowledge that playing for Duke has value beyond hard dollars. This is why college sports is dead.
Yeah, the fans are the ones left holding the bag here....oh, and funding the bags through NIL collectives too. Fun.
And at the risk of sounding totally naive and old-fashioned here, at some point, isn't part of the point of sports as a whole to teach young people life lessons---to work through adversity, to sacrifice the individual for the team, to have discipline under pressure, ect, ect.??
The obvious lesson of NIL and the Portal are---chase money and cut and run whenever anyone tells you something you don't like. Obviously valuable life-lessons for the 98% that will have their NIL dollars go to absolute zero the second their eligibility runs out--should really put them on a path to long-term success.
On the surface it's a fucking farce. Hi we are VT football, we get paid by ESPN to be on TV, we sell tickets, beer, parking passes etc. That is not enough though, no we need YOUR money too. So please give us money, so we can buy players and coaches. Your tickets, parking, beer aren't enough money, we need more. It's no different than literal billionaires fleecing tax payers to fund stadiums. Why do they do that, makes no sense right? They do it because people pay it/vote for it. Bama football takes donations because losers like Harvey Updyke give them to them.
The bubble will burst at some point. What happens when all the schools that aren't in the P2 won't schedule a game with them and they or forced to play amongst themselves? That will get very boring very quickly. The NFL already exists. That is a lot of eyeballs that used to be on TV screens to watch Alabama suddenly not interested in Alabama vs Ohio State version 44.
"all the schools that aren't in the P2 won't schedule a game with them" - this will never happen. Sadly.
Why do you say that? You think they will offer to much money for little old VT to come get their doors blown off by big bad Rutgers?
Schools look out for themselves. period. Plenty of schools will schedule games with B1G and SEC schools on their own. There is no loyalty beyond that.
To what benefit though? If the non P2 schools want to survive they will need to create an alternate product to pro football 2.0 that generates viewership.
When Tennessee is offering $2mil to play at their place, non-P2 schools will answer the phone!!!
Maybe or they will create a competitive alternative and UT won't have 2M to dish out when ESPN goes bankrupt.
But this will be the case in the short term if any sort of boycott if attempted. The dollar will win.
We are headed to the college version of the annual rotating AFC/NFC crossover games. And I can absolutely see if happen between just the Big 10 and the SEC.
I know everyone keeps clinging to the thought that this can't continue and the bubble will eventually burst. Even if that does happen, its not like VT is at all set up for success.
Lets say the burst happens by the end of the decade, so 6 years from now. Right now there's about a $50m per year revenue gap between us and the haves, and if the ACC implodes with the haves getting stronger, that gap will only grow. So you're talking about a net $300m+ financial gap in TV revenue between us and the lowest SEC or B1G schools. We don't have the funding to make that up in our lifetimes.
And VT is by no means the only big school looking to be impacted like this. They go this direction and they are evaporating the vested interest in probably half the collegiate fans out there overnight. They're going to check out en masse. And once that happens, there is no getting it back, because the gap between the haves and the have nots is irreversible at this point. You're better off following professional sports where at least your team might have a chance in your lifetime.
Adjust your expectations is all I can say. We will be a peer to JMU in a similar conference 30 years after we played for a national championship in football. At that time, JMU's stadium was one half bleachers on one half of their field. 30 years later we are in the same spot. In terms of men's hoops, think back to the days of playing Fordham and UMASS in the A-10. less than 10 years after winning the ACC tournament. Adjust the expectations.
dammit, beat me to it
you know how they tell high anxiety people to work through "realistically, what's the worse that can happen" when they feel a panic attack coming on? What's the worst that can happen to Tech? We get relegated to FCS levels of football and never even enter the conversation for a real, big boy national championship. So? North Dakota State fans were perfectly happy working towards being a big fish in a small pond. So were JMU fans, for a while. Maybe we could back up from the ledge a little and just enjoy whatever crap sandwich we end up with. Have extremely low expectations and you can only be pleasantly surprised, right?
"We get relegated to FCS levels of football and never even enter the conversation for a real, big boy national championship".. And applications drop, funding drops, Christiansburg hotels and retail close, academic ratings drop, UVA becomes more insufferable, etc etc - there are huge ripple effects here. And tell all of VT's high level donors we are cool with being ND State football. See how that goes over.
All I can do is control me. I'm not giving enough to move the needle nor will I be able to. So, my choices are be a massive well of negativity or figure out a way to move forward and not have this ruin my time on TKP (or everyone else's, for that matter). We all see which you've chosen, but don't force that on everyone else.
I think you're overvaluing the effect of football/athletics as a brand on Tech as an institution at this point. There was an influx of applications after the 2000 season, so it definitely gave a boost, but our sports have been not great for over a decade and the university as a whole has grown and continued to climb the public school rankings (tied for 20th currently on US News).
I am of the opinion that there is still a way for schools in our situation to make money and not be a part of a P2 conference. There are a shit load of eye balls associated with all of the schools not deemed P2. Would you pay a fee to watch the remaining schools play each other based on geographical location and then host a playoff after the season played out?
I would.
Exactly.
What people are forgetting is that there is a lot of value outside of the P2.
We'll have to see how this all plays out.
There is value outside of the P2, but I gotta think the overall media $ pie still shrinks over time as a result of relegating a large percentage of the former P5 schools. Perhaps the Very Smart People at ESPN and others view it differently.
I think the long-term outcome of this is going to be the disappearance of parts of or entire Athletic depts in many smaller D-1 conferences.
MAC, MVC, Horizon, ect. The limited sliver of pie left for teams like these just isnt gonna come close to keeping them in the black and they will fold.
What the P2 and their TV Network overlords are betting on is that Akron, Kent St, and Toledo fans will just go buy Buckeye gear and "transform" into OSU fans. When that (preditably) doesn't happen to any measurable extent, the system implodes and what's left is alot less opportunities for young athletes--which would seem like the exact opposite of what one would call progress.
This^^^^!! 1000%
Suddenly these crazy media deals don't look so hot when every CFB consumer not associated with the P2 doesn't tune in to watch Michigan State play Vanderbilt.
There will come a time when everyone will realizes the overall product is better together. We go back to geographical pods that then feed into a playoff system and there is a regulated distribution of profit to the athletes.
While I agree with most of this and the likelihood of severe negative consequences that could result for the university and surrounding region over time, I don't think the loss of fan interest is irreversible overnight. A large portion of fans could very likely (understandably) spend and donate less money, and watch fewer games which would even further worsen that gap and make it harder and harder for VT to compete. But I think VT would for several decades still have a large base of people that want to be more engaged fans again as soon as there was any reason to hope for improvement and that support could increase every bit as quickly.
It is really insane. 99% of high school graduate football players are just not physically ready for the NFL, so the development aspect falls on the college system as the farm teams. But these kids get hyped up from a very young age due to the ridiculousness that has become high school recruiting, and they feel like they are celebrities and pros. Especially at the QB position, where that one position can make or break a team's season and true talent is so scarce. And since the schools can't pay players directly, it previously fell to under-the-table booster/handler transactions and now with NIL collectives. Whatever team with the craziest boosters willing to throw tons of money at high schoolers has now set the market. The sad thing is, the vast majority of players aren't going to get anywhere near the top pay range, but because of these crazy exceptions everyone thinks they are worth more than they are, and that's why the portal madness has gotten out of control. Don't like your playtime/think you should be paid more? Ah I'll just quit and go somewhere else. Most of those cases don't turn out any better (and in most cases end up worse).
Remove all age restrictions to enter pro leagues. Remove any restrictions. Let Linn Kidd go to the NBA- oh, he's not an NBA player. That creates a slight problem. He's still entitled to half a million a year though in college.
This is the way
What do you think entitled means? Someone is willing to pay him that much money. He's not sitting around whining and expecting something that isn't coming. He is earning half a million a year. Because it's what someone is willing to pay for his services.
I do think I have heard people talking about it.
About entitlement? I don't think that has been a big topic. It should be IMHO
if only someone, anyone, around here would talk about how entitled the kids are these days...
If there was ever a collective bargaining agreement or some sort of regulatory, and if schools were in charge of pay-to-play, I would totally expect that payments to include that stipend. So, if a player is taking in $500K, it's $500K in value and thus the amount of cash taken home is the amount minus the tuition, books, etc.
Of course, that makes too much sense, so why would college sports move in that direction.
Bingo! Its the wild west. Everything is negotiable. Soup's ideas have merit. Under the current circumstances, you reap what you sow, and this is a reasonable response to the marketplace.
100% I don't blame Kidd if he can transfer and get a 500k salary for a year. He'd be insane not too. What I don't know and I haven't seen much reporting on is how many of these rumored deals actually pay out? Feels like it would be pretty easy to attract players with these kinds of offers but what is actually happening after the fact? This NIL needs some more transparency to keep all parties honest.
I've never had the philosophy that I was obligated to wish someone well at their new school, or that someone was a "Hokie Forever" (this one makes me roll my eyes every time). And that was back when these were "amateur kids."
The reality is college athletes have never been kids, they are adults. They are just treated like kids by some fans as a means to pamper when it's convenient. And they are certainly not amateurs in any sense of the word anymore. And that's okay. I'll root for them when they play for my team, root against them when they play against my team, and otherwise not really care.
The only way this gets fixed is with transparent salaries/contracts, and all the things that go along with that - most likely agents, tampering rules, unions, etc. Until then, we're going to have market correction after market correction, until enough fans get fed up and just stop paying attention, and eventually stop funding the sports entirely.
This has to be some kind of record in Div.1 right?
Not yet. There's a few more before we break the record, but don't lose hope, it's only been a few days 🙂
Not even close. There have been entire rosters go in the portal plenty of times but usually after either a coaching change or a run of luck in the tournament.
With the guys we have graduating and those currently in the Portal, who do we have that would be returning currently...? Rechsteiner and I'm honestly having trouble thinking of who else. 🙃
Reichsteiner, Young, Wessler
Is this run of portal entries related more to NIL amounts, or some problem directly related to CMY and the on court product? Or both?
I love Mike Young, but it's really difficult to believe it's not a little bit of both.
I would agree. I think there is a feeling that Pry is turning things around and there's some upward trajectory there, people want to be a part of that.
Young's squad? Meh, not so much...there's nothing inspirational going on there.
Lmao, let's just fold the basketball program and pump that money into football
This is fucking stupid
At some point the NIL money won't be worth it from the side of those paying it. Like what value will a bunch of transfers have to the VT market? The guys who just showed up are like when a band works in some "new stuff". It might become a hit one day, but that's not what anyone came to hear. The players that have been on the team a few years and have story and history with the fans are marketable.
Where's the prop betting on transferring, number of days in the portal, conference/state/school they end up at and their avg minutes per game, points per game etc.
I'm completely done with the "they are just kids" argument. I'm happy that they can make money off their hard work honing a skill that got them to this level. Hope they get what they can and don't blow through their NIL or Euro money.
Congrats on being treated like an adult, but expect criticism, deserved or not, and you can laugh it away or use your money to dry your tears, but I don't wanna hear any complaining from "student athletes" anymore.
Heck make them treated the same as coaches and just take away all eligibility requirements. Maybe tech could fill out a roster with 40 year olds.
The NCAA royally screwed this up for everyone by not adapting their rules when they had the chance, and we get this wild wild west. Don't begrudge players for getting an even bigger head start on life and career earnings, but that's what it is, a head start.
You may not be "straight to the pros" like 20 years ago, but don't begrudge people for criticizing your play on the court/field if that is what you're being paid to do.
I have always maintained that it was classless to boo your own team. Take it out on the coaches, I used to say, not those kids out there working their tails off for VT.
HA HA HA!!!!! I see now that the joke was on me.
I generally do not boo the teams I root for- pro or college. I do however mind my own business in the stands if you chose to boo, cuss, etc. Its a highly charged sporting event and this is a free country. I take huge exception with the many fans in Lane who feel it is there duty to get in your business if you are not cheering a certain way.
Ummm, talking about booing your team...students...not talking about policing cheering, just the way I feel about it, or used to. I have been the target of some of what you are referencing, my whistle was deemed too loud by a lot of people around me, and a guy who sat with our ticket group got hassled by an usher because a lady in her first year in front of our long held season ticket seats objected to him uttering a couple of curse words. Our guy acknowledged his trasgression, and we all yelled louder and my whistle came out of muting to full volume. That lady found another place to sit for the rest of the season. I've had people complain because we wouldn't sit down at football games when we were on defense. I always paid attention, and if there was a short person or a kid behind me, I'd bend at the waist to allow them to see the field if they were standing. If sitting, I paid them no mind.
To recap, I'll boo now if I feel like it, but I suspect my long held feelings on classless fans will keep me from it.
Good grief, at this point just tell me who's NOT in the transfer portal.
Whit Babcock
maybe...mostly kidding.
But seriously, if the school is trapped in the ACC, at what point do the personnel decide they don't want to be anymore. Hell, Brooks just did that. Why not administrators?
In 20 years we went from begging the ACC to take us and pulling political strings, etc. Getting into our "dream" conference after all of those years. And now we are desperately trying to get the hell out any way we can. 20 years.
sauce?
Big if true
Whit has caught a lot of flak and for good reason too, but a lot of what is going on right now is largely out of his control. Though I did think it was crazy that even years ago, he was investing so heavily in basketball and non-revs to the detriment of football. Now you can't fully fault him on hiring Fuente, who just turned out to be a dud, but he was seen as an A+ hire at the time. He just flopped. But there's lots of other reporting out there that Whit was actively holding back funding from football during the Fuente tenure to allocate to other sports. Absolutely wrong strategy then and definitely looks bad now. Now thanks to Pry coming onboard and reenergizing VT football, we seem to have our priorities straight, but everyone is worried it might be too late.
I said right after Buzz left that it was crazy we redirected so much funding to basketball to buy a few firecrackers of excitement when long-term, the other sports weren't going to be sustainably successful without a major investment in football. I'm glad we finally figured it out, but I'm sure there's a ton of anxiety within VT about whether we get a P2 invite or not. So much is riding on the momentum Pry has going.
And Whit certainly isn't the best communicator (his answers to VT being a 'stepping-stone school on that 247 interview weren't exactly inspiring a ton of confidence). I really think Pry is the face of VT athletics right now - the guy oozes confidence and says all the right things about VT football and our place in the landscape. Thankfully Whit and the admin seem to have bought in on it - so in Pry we Trust.
"Whit was actively holding back funding from football during the Fuente tenure to allocate to other sports"- I'm skeptical this is true. I really am. I think what he was doing was simply finally funding olympic sports at any reasonable level at all.
You can make the argument that he was just putting resources toward those sports to bring us a bit closer toward our peers in the ACC than we had been historically, which is valid. But VT isn't a UNC or UVA. Making those investments in basketball, baseball, olympic sports was money not being spent on football. Our football recruiting staff was basically a one-man operation during Fuente's tenure. Our staff salary pool was incredibly low. It wasn't until the university committed more funding toward football and Pry came onboard that things started to shift. Until Pry we basically had no strategy for dealing with football NIL. Whit was trying to run a Director's Cup AD on a shoestring budget, which was never going to work out long-term. If we had focused on football from the beginning, maybe we wouldn't have such a huge hole to climb out of and wouldn't have unrealistic/unsustainable expectations for basketball and non-revs and get upset when we can't hang onto that.
I think this is exactly right. He has an opportunity to deliver us to the promised land (out of the ACC into the P2). The path is murky, but I do still believe there's an opportunity.
The big dogs will come knocking for Pry if his next season is a good one. Will he turn down the established big dogs in favor of an opportunity to create a big dog of his own? It would be hard to blame him for making a Brooks-esque business decision. But on the other hand, we build statues for our legends in Blacksburg...
Whether or not he would jump would totally depend on who the big dogs are. Most but not every P2 team would be able to lure Pry away. Like, I would be shocked if he left because Rutgers, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, or Vanderbilt had a HC opening.
On the other end of the spectrum, if there is suddenly an opening at Alabama, UGA, Ohio State, Michigan, ND, Texas, Oklahoma then I think they would look to make a bigger and splashier hire than Pry (unless he goes 11-1 in 2024 or something).
So out of ~35 P2 teams (including ND), that takes out 12, leaving 23 that would be a threat if Pry has a good year. Granted there would be threats in the ACC and Big 12 as well.
Basically there are a bunch of middle of the pack P2 teams who I will be rooting for so that they don't fire their coach haha.
I gotta admit that I got a smile every time Wessler got in the game. He even had fun with his gaffes and always seemed to really be happy just to be there. Collins stymies me, though. Seemed like he was working his way into being a better player, though the comments on TKP for the bulk of the year were almost universally negative. I always saw effort and his defense as positives and he never seemed down, regardless of his stats. Watcha gon' do?
Collins was getting great in the last quarter of the season but I'll be the first to admit I couldn't stand his play most of the season. He always played with a lot of energy but it just seemed sloppy and wasted to me. Wish him well where ever he lands next.
I'm excited to see our entirely new lineup next season although I don't expect it to be great with our pitiful NIL allotment.
I didn't love how things went for him early, but while yes, he wasted a lot of energy, he had it to give and he gave it freely. Never seemed to take plays off, seemed to me to usually follow a missed shot with a decent defensive play at the other end. But, gone and soon forgotten.
My brain hurts.
Remember when we used to pop popcorn 🍿 for our coach?
Are we sure this is bag chasing? A few of the others make sense, I'm not sure Collins and Nickel are good enough to bag chase. I'd speculate (with absolutely no inside knowledge) that the relationships with the coaching staff are somehow damaged. Whether they offended some of the guys individually or the team has lost the motivation to buy in for something that's clearly not working
It's difficult to say right now I think. However, when you see that Kidd got $500K, reportedly, you understand that these kids are getting ridiculous money based on their value (although, the case can certainly be made that the fact he got that much speaks to the market and value atm). We can't compete in the NIL world across all sports right now, but that is exacerbated by the fact that the market, seemingly, is terribly inflated.
I think it is partially "bag chasing."
Just my 2 cents.
I think it started with Big Bag chasing for Kidd and Pedulla and then by the time Nickel went in, it may have been to the point of might as well bag chase too since every one else has left the building.
Nickel shot 39% from three. Perimeter shooting could be enough for a team looking for an outside shooter and if NIL is as bad as it seems for Hokies, getting 6th man NIL might be enough from somewhere else.
Collins I think is similar but more for the way his season ended when he was getting more touches and started to come into form scoring wise. Again might be a 6th man money is enough situation especially when you see Poteat looking for $100-200K in NIL.
This is where I'm at. We've seen multiple players over the years leave and perform better elsewhere. My guess is these guys no longer have faith that CMY can develop them.
I prefer to think that CMY encouraged them to look. He is going to be better off encouraging the looking around and knowing there is still Tech there than discouraging. The my way or highway can be even more detrimental to the team. He can point to 35 years of coaching to talk about development.
You could be right... that's the ultimate bet-on-yourself move. We're about to see if CMY can recruit in the ACC in the transfer portal era
I respected the hell out of bosses I have had that encouraged their employees to look. It lets people know if the grass really is greener and makes people rechoose their current spot
I would not only encourage any of my folks to look, but would tell them to put me down as a reference. I have and will never keep a person who works with me to advance themselves and if I can help them do it, even better. I believe in Karma. Plus, just about every time I did it, they would look at me like I was phucking with them. When they realized I wasn't, I could see the effect. Just about every time, they would end up staying with me. I kid you not. It was an amazing experiment diving into the human psyche.
Nickel reached out to by.....
KENTUCKY
Didn't they get enough already?
Guess we're the poverty program now 😞
We have lost every successful coach we've ever had because we wouldn't pay them except for Beamer, and even then he was one foot out the door having agreed to a contract to coach UNC right after taking us to the BCS title game before the school president got involved.
Being a poverty school is our comfort zone
Stepping stone for players and coaches
This is odd to me. I think Nickel has some upside, but he's very limited athletically. I can't imagine him being an impact player at Kentucky.
But it isn't about being an impact player or playing time. If it's more money in his pocket, that's all that matters now. Maybe I'm jaded or over simplifying it, but isn't that what it's all about now?
Yep - NIL isn't as concerning for those going to the NBA. Everyone else? Bank as much as you can in your 4/5 years
The sad part for thr college sport fan is knowing that school loyalty is dead. Every player will jump to the highest bidder because professional sport is ultimately not an option for most players. You have to take the opportunity for any financial reward. I'd take a couple hundred grand to start me on an uncertain adult life, especially if I've been a student athlete. Which means I really don't have education beyond my sport.
Add Pedulla to those contacted by Kentucky
Did we do something to that school? Or someone that got hired there (not Kenny) and all of this is some sort of payback or revenge or something? I mean there's over 300 D1 schools and they are trying to poach every ounce of VT basketball. Sheesh.