Brian and I give our initial thoughts on James Johnson's dismissal.
Brian's Not-So-Quick Thoughts
I think it's fascinating how different this process was from the Greenberg debacle.
Over the course of five days, Babcock made a decision and now has Tech moving forward earlier than most schools with potential job openings (Wake Forest, anyone?). I can't remember being this confidant in a Virginia Tech coaching search since I've followed the team.
One of the most important aspects of this hiring is to make a statement. I'm not going to use this space to kill Greenberg's supporters, but that situation still looms over the basketball program. There's a ton of negativity surrounding it, and knocking this hire out of the park would generate some much needed goodwill towards both the basketball team and the athletic department. No matter who they get though, I think it's clear that Whit thought out the decision. Whit wouldn't make this move as early as he did if he didn't have a list of qualified, interested candidates.
Who does he bring in? No clue. Whoever he gets will have a much better foundation to start with than James Johnson ever had. Look at hreft="http://www.hokiesports.com/mbasketball/players/" target="_blank"> the roster, eight scholarship players will be either sophomore or juniors with C.J. Barksdale and Will Johnston being the only seniors. For arguments sake, let's say that two out of the three recruits stay. If that happens, the new coach will inherit a rotation of 11 playable guys (or 12, depending how you feel about Johnston). With that roster, on top of a new practice facility, this job is nowhere near as bleak as it was two years ago.
To me, though, this hire goes beyond basketball. As fans, we talk constantly about what the Hokie football team needs to do in order to become nationally elite again. I think that on a larger scale, this hire is very important to the Virginia Tech athletic department becoming nationally elite. Think about it, school has had recent success in baseball, women's soccer, wrestling, track and field and swimming & diving. Football has a real chance to be in the national picture again soon. If Whit nails the hire, Tech could approach the same stratosphere that schools like Florida, Florida State, and Texas occupy.
Does it sound crazy that Babcock's first decision could be one that swings his new school into a new national level? Sure, but isn't that why he was hired? Virginia Tech has the ability to do something that few schools will ever be able to do, and it's Whit's job to get us there.
Thoughts that are Running Through Joe's Brain
I'm not ruling any candidate out. Whit's the guy who made Tommy Tuberville at Cincinnati work. A lot of the potential replacement discussion seems to revolve around who Tech can't get—whether that's because they can't pay a guy more than Frank Beamer, Qualified Coach X wouldn't want to be a cellar dwellar in Blacksburg, or Tech has minimal fan support and tradition. I don't expect to see Shaka Smart or Phil Jackson in orange and maroon, but I'm giving Babcock the benefit of the doubt.
Hiring JJ's replacement will be Whit's first major decision at Virginia Tech. Fixing the Hokie Club and rejuvenating fund raising is a pressing issue too, but that has clearer solutions (i.e. modernize the Hokie Club's communication/outreach, get involvement from the younger generation of Hokies, bring Tech's NFL alumni into the fold, etc...). Ultimately, Whit's tenure will in part be judged on this hire.
Can Tech minimize roster turnover? James Johnson inked a very solid recruiting class in November, but will they seek a release? Will any of the players currently on the roster that JJ recruited opt to head to another school now that JJ's gone?
Virginia Tech's firing of MBB coach James Johnson, per his contract, will require buyout of as much as $800K, depending on his future jobs— Steve Berkowitz (@ByBerkowitz) March 17, 2014
So now it seems Virginia Tech will be paying three men's basketball coaches next season. Seth, James Johnson, and whoever Whit Babcock hires. That's a change for an athletic department used to pinching pennies.
Whit wasted no time dismissing Johnson. It might stand to reason that's he's been working the back channels and already has an interested pool of candidates lined up. Either way, the timing here is much better than Seth's firing which really put Tech behind the eight-ball during its last coaching search.
James Johnson did the best he could with the resources he had. He sat down at a five-card stud table, anted up, was dealt one card short, predictably lost, but did not fold.
Comments
like the poker analogy..I feel for the guy. Hopefully Whit hits a home-run and jolts this athletic department to life. I honestly think making a great hire in this situation will really help WB get that fund raising jump started. If this hire gets fans excited it could snowball (in a good way) and help us get to that elite level
I am of the same mindset of Brian. This hiring will likely define the next three to five years of this Athletic Department. If Whit is confident in his ability to raise the funds necessary to bring this program into the same air as the SEC football schools, Texas, Stanford, and UCLA than he is going to have to be willing to open the checkbook all the way up. Shaka Smart at $2.5 million plus staff, go after Bill Self and give him a shot at his old mentor year in and year out, make the big confident hire that says Tech is headed higher immediately. What are the dominoes of that decision? It will likely mean needing to renegotiate with Frank Beamer and his staff to ensure the Football First mantra is not offended. Make the plans to replace Cassell or at least initiate a full spectrum review for a major renovation. We have crossed the threshold of getting rid of JJ so now I want to see us jump ahead in a large way.
Will Whit have to then deliver on fundraising? Absolutely, it will mean every one of us on this website will have to find a way to help him deliver. $100 a head x the graduates since 2000 alone would bring in about $5.5 million. Make that annually and some of these discussions of funds go away. Will they get everyone to give $100? No but they need to do all the things Joe talks about plus make it a more well rounded organization with benefits that are not entirely tied to the football program.
Regardless of what happens, we are definitely in a better position than when Weaver waited a month to fire Greenberg. We should have the ability to go after whoever we want.
Yep pete. I just wrote a check. WB just stepped up and we need to help him. Dollars will help.
Bill Self? C'mon, now.
Why not? If we really are serious about competing with UNC, Syracuse, Louisville, and Duke than we have to get after it. Self would bring an entire career of credibility to that work. He is definitely familiar with Coach Williams. He wouldn't flinch from coaching against those guys even in his first season. Is it a bit outlandish, sure? So is Shaka Smart but if we do want to be in the same conversation as those schools that regularly compete for the Capital One Cup, the best overall Athletic Department, we have to be willing to make a huge investment into Men's basketball.
I'm not serious about competing with Duke, UNC, Syracuse or Louisville. I'm realistic.
Well I am sad for your view of realism then. Here is how I look at a hire like the one that would be required to compete with those teams. That kind of dyed in the wool Hall of Fame potential coach is more likely to pay back any money invested in a short period of time. They are less likely to come in and be another mediocre hire that is just that third Head Coach paycheck we are paying. They immediately put us in the discussion with every five star player in the country because now you have a Hall of Fame type coach and you can play against four or five other squads coached by Hall of Fame type coaches. It brings eyes to Tech year in and year out. You become an expected member of the Top 25, and a consistent participant in the NCAA tournament. All of these kind of things bring in more money for Tech, it moves the basketball program from a cost/pays for itself type program to a revenue generator. It will make camping outside Cassell a regular occurrence, Sportscenter will want to be there for games, and basketball will have the spotlight on Tech from the beginning of football all the way to the Spring Game. We will be more likely to be the hat that the kid chooses on signing day and if we really are successful it actually helps the football program too.
If UVA is competing with those schools this year, I see no reason why we can't.
Well, UVA is doing it this year. We will see if they do it consistently.
But they are also doing it with a very different model than the Bill Self idea. They hired realistically, a guy who leans on a system, were patient for him to cleanse his roster of non-system guys, and are excelling with a full roster of his guys with experience. This is the blueprint. It doesn't require you to a.) hire Bill Self (or Roy Williams or Tom Izzo or John Calipari) or b.) recruit 5* kids to one and done.
But few people would say UVA is competing with Duke, UNC, Louisville and Syracuse because of one great year. Remember, Miami was a #1 seed 52 weeks ago.
....and Duke, UNC, Louisville and Syracuse are regularly above a five seed. Tony Bennett is a great coach, UVA made a great hire, one I hope they never make in football. This being a system that took him five years to get to where it is right now. He has had three consecutive 20+ win seasons so I would likely put it as competitive at this point.
Miami was four seniors and an NBA ready guard, how often does that happen any more in college basketball unfortunately?
Whichever way Whit goes, I want the outside world to at least take notice of the hire and say Wow, maybe they are moving the right way.
To further enforce your point, Miami actually played five seniors heavily with Shane Larkin. Plus they redshirted another senior that year too. They were built to win that year.
The idea that Bill Self would even consider leaving Kansas to coach at Virginia Tech is absurd. Kansas has a top 3 arena nationally and a great fan base coupled with the ability to recruit McDonald's All-Americans consistently. We currently have a disappointed fan base that can't fill up half of Cassell and absolutely no ability to get elite talent consistently.
If Self wants to coach against Roy, he can schedule Carolina. There's no way he would step down at a top 5 job nationally to coach at Virginia Tech.
Shaka Smart isn't even in the same category as Bill Self. You could argue that he's just as good of a coach, but the resources that Self and Smart are currently playing with aren't comparable. Smart would absolutely consider coaching in Blacksburg if the price was right (as he reportedly proved two years ago).
i kind of look at like what Jim Laranaga did. when Mason made its final four run, he turned down some offers to stay. couple years later when Mason had been good but not great, Miami came calling and Laranaga took the job. its been a couple of years now since VCU made it to Final Four. theres a chance hes thinking about the right opportunity to jump up in conference pecking order
I think this may be just a rumor i heard, but Larranaga took Miami's offer to GMU AD Tom O'Connor and said "Match this and I'll stay," (it was not a substantial raise iirc). GMU said no and have been stuck with Hewitt ever since.
I do not think VCU will make the same mistake. Plus, the Rams are now in the A-10 which is a high major basketball conference so the "better competition" argument doesn't carry as much weight as it would if Smart was still coaching in the CAA.
My point isn't Self in and unto himself. My point is make Tech known for targeting the top of the pile rather than the middle. Go after the 1%ers. I agree on all your points about the Kansas basketball program. I have been a fan of theirs since fifth grade, when my dad took me to a game there while we were stationed at Fort Leavenworth and I got passed above the fans heads in the middle of a big chant. Its an incredible experience to attend a basketball game at Kansas. That was back when Williams was the head coach and Self was just getting his feet wet under Williams. It hasn't changed much since. And that's more to do with the coach and less to do with the other stuff. You get a coach that establishes your school and the money to build the other things follows. That's kind of my point here. Go get the top of the pile.
A guy like Thad Matta might have been a better example (still not very likely).
Indiana wants to get rid of Tom Crean. I'd take him in a heartbeat.
As an Indiana fan, I want no part of Tom Crean anywhere near any of my teams. The man can recruit, but cannot coach in big and/or close games worth a damn. If we're serious about competing and succeeding, we can do better than Tom Crean.
seconded. He'll be out of Bloomington soon
Sigh okay. I think what he's getting at is we need to come down from the clouds a little. Bill Self and anyone on his level are very much in the clouds. Also, I believe Self makes a little south of $3.9M a year, if I'm not mistaken. I'm all about tossing out some extra dough to get a good coach and a solid group of assistants, but not at the expense of risking our entire athletics department's future (see Maryland). This is all assuming a guy the likes of Self (or anyone else in the 1%) would even listen and not laugh Whit right on out of town. Kids picking VT hats and ESPN salivating over VT basketball are all very, very big ambitions/ifs. We need to try and find that next guy.
Then we get to the next problem of how do you pay a basketball guy top dollar and not Frank, Bud, Torian, etc? That's just football. I think the past month has proven we have some very quality coaches in other sports too. Wrestling, anyone? Theyve been top notch. Dresser has done nothing but win since he stepped on campus. My point here is if we chuck out millions in basketball, then millions in raises in other sports thats a hell of a lot of dough for a program that runs in the black but only by about $6M. There are a lot of egos and prides for Whit to manage and they are typically managed in dollars and cents. Mostly dollars. Lots of dollars.
Essentially, while Im just as excited as anyone else about what is going on here and how it can start to shape a new culture for VT athletics, I, like cds7c, am trying to stay level. Im sure Ill lose a few turkey legs here but I think some of us should take a deep breath and land that rocket ship back on Earth.
Speaking of Maryland, what's Gary Williams up to nowadays?
College basketball analyst for the Big10 Network.
Gary's busy being 69 years old.
Probably off sweating somewhere.
Sweat Gary Sweat!
^^^^^^ THIS
All who think Whit is thinking "gosh, I can't spend an extra $700k to hire a front line coach, need to get a diamond in the rough" I think are in for a surprise. He's going to make a serious splash and leverage the big time good will among donors to easily pay for it. The guy can raise funds and needs to send a message with this hire. Would not be surprised to see him spend well north of $2 mil
I've been piecing this together from a few places, so maybe it would be best if I wrote all my thoughts down in one place.
Let me first start out that I really do respect Coach Johnson for taking over this program and doing what he did. Through absolutely no fault of his own (if you're an assistant who has never been a head coach, you DON'T say no when an ACC program offers you a head coaching job, even if it was in a place at a time where it would have been nearly impossible for even the best head coaches to succeed) he took over a program gutted of talent that had just become a national punchline for how it handled the most recent coaching termination. He took a no-win situation and at least brought in a couple guys who we are going to be able to build around for the future. We might have only beaten 1 ACC team this year, but we were competitive in most games. Not sure how anyone could have reasonably expected anything more of him. I wish him the best of luck in the future regardless of where he ends up. He's still got a bright coaching future ahead of him, its just unfortunate that the timing was so bad here in Blacksburg. And as an aside, I beg the fanbase, don't pine for what could have been should he make it big elsewhere. This team right now is BAD, and its way too much to have asked him to fix. It isn't fair for anyone involved to have kept him on staff for any longer.
As for the future and this hire. Whit has presented himself an incredible opportunity in his early tenure to make a big impression on us, and I really hope he goes for it. We have an absolutely stagnant donor base that mails in the annual minimum to keep football tickets and does little else to financially and vociferously support our other athletics. It has been far, far too long (possibly ever) since we have made a big splash on the coaching circuits and brought in a big name guy. I say it right now, with this hire, that mindset needs to change. What better way to take the jumper cables to the nether regions of the donor base and shock us into action than to go out and bring in a big name head coach. No, it doesn't have to be Shaka Smart, but someone similar. Gregg Marshall would be another guy I would put up there, and he has Hokie ties by being from this area. You want the big money donors to start shelling out their money and to start supporting the Athletic Department more than they do, break the trend of the safe or bargain hires. If it doesn't work, let the contract expire or eventually release him (and to be honest, with all the dead money we're going to be shelling out to Weaver, Greenberg, and Johnson over the next few years, we now know for sure we can afford a massive buyout) and then go and hire someone more economically reasonable for what we think we should be. But should it work out, you're not only looking at VT basketball as being a relevant program in the ACC and a potential NCAA tourney regular, you're now opening up the possibility that the basketball program could eventually be a revenue generator for this Athletic Department. For Whit, this is an opportunity to show everyone that he's serious about Virginia Tech being a legitimate Athletic Department that is serious about competing at the highest of levels. In my opinion, nothing would disappoint me more right now than to see the same old same old average coach from a middling conference who needs a change in scenery. We've been down that path far too often. Its time to go big.
Even before this hire is made, I'm willing to give Whit a mulligan if he goes big with this hire and it doesn't work. We badly need a culture change within this athletic department, and the best way to do it right now in my opinion is to shoot for the stars with this hire, even if we have to slightly overpay the guy. I want to be excited about VT basketball again, and even if that means taking a chance on a hire that could blow up in our faces, I want to say at least we tried. Unfortunately, with this last hire, I never really thought I could ever say with a straight face that we legitimately tried when Seth was let go, and that's just sad.
I think your last paragraph covers an important issue: we are in a position to take a risk. It really can't get much worse, from an on the court perspective and fundraising. This isn't just about Pearl (who I strongly support), but any coach that may have some baggage.
I lean heavily towards hiring a known name than an unknown small school talent. If you are going to miss, miss big.
Would you (or anyone else who supports him) care to share your thinking on hiring Pearl? I'm really curious to see what people think. I really don't see any reason why Babcock would want to spend any political capital trying to hire him and justify the choice to both the NCAA (show-cause penalty and all) and the fanbase. We're used to doing things the right way; Pearl would be an affront to that notion, at least the way I see it.
I believe "we do things the right way" is code for "we just haven't had our disgruntled ex-employee squeal on us yet, but it's coming." I don't live under the illusion that any program is clean, mostly because of the sheer stupidity of the NCAAs rules. Pearl is a perfect example, he had a BBQ at his house for recruits then lied about it. Who cares. OSU players trade tattoos for memorabilia, who cares, it's their memorabilia. Too much pasta, cream cheese for bagels, text limits then no text limits 3 months later. It's ludicrous.
Even when someone does something egregious like UNC or Miami, the NCAA doesn't do anything about it. I don't value the regulatory system, so I don't devalue infractions of said system.
For me, with Pearl, his infraction is less of an issue about the NCAA and more about the fundamentals of his character. Who acts like that? "I know full well that I'm doing something wrong [merits about NCAA rules aside], and I'm going to tell this impressionable young man to lie about it to cover my ass, and I'm going to tell his family to do the same." I don't care what position you're in at that point, you're a low-class individual. Given the other problems that he lied about, like drug use by at least one of his players, that's a deal-breaker for me.
I don't have any illusions that everyone does everything right all the time, but our compliance department is a good one and we have a good system in place to keep things on the up-and-up as best as we can. I don't prescribe to the notion that we should hire someone like Pearl just because it improves our W-L record. I want someone that will be a Hokie. A liar who serves only his own interests does not fit with Ut Prosim.
What you're calling for (and I agree with) is similar to what the Washington Nationals did with Jayson Werth. They overpaid for a player who had name recognition in order to do two things: 1. say we mean business, we're here to win and 2. change the culture of the clubhouse. The coaching hire has to be the same type of splash.
Do you consider the Werth signing successful?
Yes
Before Werth the Nats were the laughingstock cannon fodder of the NL East. Teams like Philadelphia would come in and Nats fans would be outnumbered at the park 2:1. The team was annually bad, the fans knew it, and they treated the franchise as such.
Then they signed Werth. The mindset immediately went to "we're here, so f'n deal with it". Yes, they still would have had Strasburg, and they still would have Bryce Harper, but the 'Natitude' and core belief that they COULD put out a winner and that they could compete came from that signing. Talent-wise, bringing in Werth helped only marginally, but mindset-wise, it was a franchise changing signing.
Gotcha, from that perspective, it's a good example.
I just look at it from a WAR/value perspective. If that was my team, I'd want the GM to have to pitch batting practice with no screen all season.
I would make the Werth signing 10 times out of 10. Even when they are paying him a ludicrous amount when he probably cant play in Right. Still worth it. Werth is the clubhouse in DC. He is the foundation of that team. He is practically the damn coach.
In terms of revenue earning if you make the right call there is no contract that is too high. Making the right call and having the balls to pull the trigger on the contract takes a skillful eye and a lot of luck though. Exciting times for Whit but there is definitely a lot of pressure if he does open the checkbook.
I'm making the comparison because the coach has to bring all the intangibles but also production. There have been times where Werth was the best hitter on the team and when he's not injured he plays good defense. Add in the clutchness of his Game 4 walkoff homer, his individual on field value is high, especially since he's only expected to be the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. The coach has to bring that high level production and the intangibles that change the culture of VT Basketball both on and off the court.
Yes, yes, YES to Gregg Marshall.
Shaka costs too much and he's so not leaving VCU for Tech, anyway. And VCU can keep him, that's fine by me. Sorry, y'all, I'm a Spider. Shaka's not very high on my favorites list.
And yes, Gregg Marshall will probably cost a pretty penny and will probably take a whole lot of convincing to leave Wichita State, but he could BUILD a program at Tech. Like Beamer has.
Marshall also does more with less, consistently. Again, much like Coach Beamer does. Which is exactly the kind of program I think our basketball program needs to be.
#InGreggITrust
He would be my first choice as well. But do we even have a chance? I feel like he's probably waiting for a big time bball program.
Also keep in mind he has a PLANE they use for recruiting. That's a huge asset.
I would be pretty surprised if we go after him hard. I hear he is very much like Seth; a hot head, my way or the highway kind of coach. Many great coaches are that way, but it wouldn't fit with our culture.
I feel like this is something many of our fans are forgetting to acknowledge in this coaching search; our culture is VERY unique. It's what we all love about VT, but we need to understand that some people may not want to work a true family atmosphere, and that's ok, VT isn't for everyone. While we all want a great coach who can win instantly and will fight with the big boys for recruits and wins, we also need someone who fits with our tight-knit community atmosphere. If they don't like that type of culture then it will only be a quick fix. We're never going to be a win at all costs kind of school, in any sport, I don't believe anyone here truly wants that; but some of these coaches expect that type of support. So while many of us may personally want a specific coach because they win a lot of games, we really need to look for the right personality. The actual list of candidates when you look at it from that perspective, isn't that long.
Don't ask me who I think it should be, I haven't done any research, nor will I.
This whole "VT culture" talk is really just starting to become so unbearable. If the coach doesn't commit violations, who cares what his "culture" is. I feel like we're starting to become a bit too proud of this mentality we have of ourselves.
I'm not saying it should be that way, just pointing out how it is.
The culture means a lot. Not just at VT but at any school. We need a coach that is going to come in, embrace what he has to do, the community, the fans, the players, etc. Do we want him to come in and spend five years getting the program respectable again and on the brink of really winning and then jump ship (EG: Pete Hughes)? Or do we want a guy that's going to really sink his teeth into this program. Build it. Win. Stick around for a while. A guy isn't going to do that if he doesn't buy into the atmosphere. Does he want to be somewhere that the students and fans walk around in ties and glasses of wine? Or somewhere the fans are kicking back beers in camo hats? There is a LOT to be said about the culture. Whoever we hire is going to move to Blacksburg. Live there. If he has kids they're going to go to school there. The culture of a university infects the town too. Especially a town the size of Blacksburg. Plus, the coach buying into the culture is what is going to determine if that coach gets along well with people. People within the athletic department, the fans, the boosters, etc. Writing off the school's culture and saying it doesn't matter is ignorant. It was considered when we hired Babcock and I'm sure he's going to consider it when making this hire.
If that's the main thing we're looking for in a coach, we are handcuffing ourselves so much. We have not, nor will be in the near future, a basketball job that when a coach obtains the job, feels he has "made it." We don't have the tradition in basketball to make it a dream job, unless you grew up a Tech fan. And if that's the case, good luck finding the ONE candidate out there who fits the "culture" while also being a coach that can help us reach our goals.
Please, define what exactly our culture is. Because I can tell you as a current student we're in the midst of a culture shift. This late 90's early 2000's culture we used to have is slowly becoming extinct.
By placing such a high importance on having a "cultural fit" coach, you can limit yourself a tremendous amount. I know I'd damn well take a great coach with a bit of a cultural disconnect who generates wins, rather than a lesser coach who "belongs."
Well if you're right about being in the midst of a cultural shift; 1. that makes me sad. 2. it won't matter for about 20 years when your generation of alumni start donating and influencing decisions.
Just look at what happened with Greenberg. He didn't get fired for not winning enough, he was fired for rubbing certain alumni/boosters and people in the athletic dept the wrong way. That's what we're talking about when we talk about needing to fit with the culture. I don't think and I hope that it's not THE most important thing but whether we like it or not, it's high on the list.
Now all that being said, Whit could be changing all of that. I'm very interested to see what direction he heads in, I think we can all agree that this new regime is vastly different from Weaver's tenure.
First of all, we're not talking about basketball culture here, rather the culture of a university community as a whole. I don't care if a guy runs an up-temp offense or a gritty defense. Like Whit said this morning, I favor whichever style puts more points on the board than the other team. Second, no one ever mentioned making culture the end all, be all decision on who to hire. But it's a factor that has to be considered. Whoever gets hired has to get along with the administration, the boosters, etc. Those people certainly have a culture and way of thinking/acting. There's a certain "game" the new coach will have to be willing to play sometimes. I understand as a student it's awesome to see some new, hot, fiery coach come in. Trust me, it is for alumni and other fans as well. I remember Greenberg picking up the mic during the UVA game one year and yelling at the fans to stop throwing stuff so they could keep playing and win that game. I also remember running into him in the bar at Bull & Bones with a buddy and how he talked to us and thanked us for being at all the games. It was great. He was awesome. But how he got along with the students is just one factor of the culture as a whole. All accounts are that he was not great with boosters and not great with the administration and those are also two very important parts of the culture. I also don't think our culture would prohibit us from hiring a guy that has always coached in a city as opposed to a farmer with a pitch fork. Whoever we hire has to buy in to what is trying to ultimately be done at Virginia Tech.
As far as the culture shift, see above. That's one factor. I don't think anyone would argue that the athletics department isn't going through a shift as well with Whit taking over. The alumni and boosters have a culture as well. Multiple in fact seeing as some are in their 20s like myself, 30s, and some that are more than double that age. The culture as a whole is what matters. It's certainly not the only thing to consider. But it's no small part of the equation either.
I would love to have a coach come in and build a top 25 team. If he leaves after 5 years, and leaves the program in better place than he found it, I will be pleased.
This.
Perhaps a radical thought - but why not hire a coach with vague but desirable values (Hard working, loves winning, doesn't cheat, good character) and let him help shape the culture at VT?
Just because our football team is defensive minded doesn't mean we can't hire a basketball coach who focuses on offense. Just because we're in a rural area doesn't mean we can't consider coaches who previously coached in a city.
I agree with just about everything here, but I don't think "cultural fit" necessarily has anything to do with X's and O's. I think we're looking for someone who will possess those first characteristics you mentioned (hard working, loves winning, doesn't cheat, good character) and can impart those into our student-athletes, and that's about it. So long as he can do that and win, I see Hokie Nation being happy. I think we're just saying that our culture is not the flashy/showy/individualistic culture you see so much in college sports (lookin' at you, Miami and USCw).
100% agree, well said.
Because the 3rd floor people don't like radical thoughts and things that go against the grain. This is southwest VA we are talking about. Change tends to happen slow around here and they don't like people who aren't personable. Also, I don't think a basketball coach is going to shape the culture of Virginia Tech as a whole. Whoever it may be, may foster a certain culture within the basketball program, but that pretty much limits them to Hahn/Hurst practice facility and Cassell on gamedays.
I'd rather hire a winning coach with a New York accent and an edgy attitude than a nice southern boy who goes .500.
Argue as much as you want regarding playing style, personality, 'culture', etc, but if this coach wants to be Hokie, wants to work hard, has good character, and can win, he's going to be a fan favorite at ANY SCHOOL, and I would welcome him at Virginia Tech.
At this point, the culture is changing with Whit. You heard it in the presser yesterday. "If we're keeping score, we might as well win the games". Thats not exactly a mindset that was prevalent during Jim Weaver's tenure. His goal was money driven. Anything to cut costs. Whit is already talking about opening up checkbooks and making winning the goal.
This is not your father's VT anymore... and thats a GOOD thing.
I have never been a strong supporter of a lot of Weaver's decisions, but he did one thing well - he kept us financial stable. While most athletics programs are deep in the red, we can proudly say that VT isn't a total money suck. The only reason Whit has any sort of checkbook to open is because, from a financial perspective, Weaver left the department in a reasonable spot. Now, we can certainly have a discussion on the merits of what was spent, how much revenue is coming in, etc. because lots needs to improve, but the thing everyone needs to remember is that the function of an AD is to effectively run a business. If your business continually loses money, you're doing a bad job. We may have our financial challenges, but we're far from the big trouble that a lot of major programs are in.
IMHO, Jim ran the economics of the Athletic Department well, but he failed when he never capitalized on a GOOD coach and kept him around. Remember, he's the same AD who played chicken with Beamer in 2000 and if not for the Univ President getting involved, Beamer would now be at UNC. He ran off numerous coaches over the years the second they got successful because he didn't want to pony up the money to keep them around. Its the single biggest reason we have been seeing such a dramatic cycle in recent years of getting really good in a sport (men's soccer, wrestling, women's basketball, baseball) and them immediately falling back to the pack and needing to start the rebuilding process all over again.
This Athletic Department needs stability. If we get a good coach in here who brings us some positive momentum, KEEP THEM AROUND. I'm still pissed to this day that Pete Hughes is now in Oklahoma. Baseball had just become relevant, we just hosted a NCAA Regional and BAM... Weaver didn't want to pony up and now we're starting over. At a certain point, running everything on the cheap ends up doing more long term harm than good, and towards the latter years of his tenure, I cannot recall a single personnel decision that worked out in our favor, except wrestling, which can be argued was pure luck because we found a great coach in our own backyard.
Nope. Beamer agreed to the UNC job, but had a change of heart. He came back to VT and asked for raises for the assistants, which he was given. He chose to stay at VT because he felt leaving would be disloyal. It's all in his book.
Right, and he took the job because Weaver was not willing to pony up the money to pay him and his assistants the salaries they deserved for transforming our program into a national power and having us play in the National Championship Game. Weaver was willing to let Beamer walk because he didn't want to pay the assistant coaches more money.
And from everything I've read from those in the know, having been a longtime subscriber on TSL, that the 'change of heart' came because Torg got involved and told Beamer that he practically answered to the President from now on and took Weaver out of that equation. Whether or not that dynamic truly exists is up for debate, but you cannot look at Weaver's tenure and NOT bring up the fact that he very, very nearly lost us Frank Beamer. All of those accomplishments later on that we like to attribute to Jim, like getting us in the ACC, would have never happened had Frank Beamer left, and Jim was allowing it to happen.
It wasn't Torg, actually Steger/Weaver convinced him. Torg happened to be in a next door room, while Frank/Weaver/Steger were talking it out. Torg exited his room, and walked into all the press, who asked him how the day was going, if everything was okay, etc. Torg, not knowing exactly why they were asking was his normally positive self. Later, when VT 'officially' broke the news that Beamer was staying, the press incorrectly credited President Torg due to his previous answers.
Pres. Torg told us about it in his Organizational Theory class (best class VT has ever offered btw).
Well, I don't know who "those in the know" are, and I don't claim to be one of them. I'm just basing what I know on what Frank said, directly from his book. Maybe he's just being polite (probably true to an extent, knowing our beloved Beamer), but the reason he came back to VT wasn't about money in the end. It was because it was the program he built. Regarding UNC, he said it was a program someone else's blood and sweat went into, and he didn't feel that he could just step in and own it, in the end. It wasn't his. VT football was. I'm sure there were politics at play, and indeed it came down to a meeting with Beamer, Torg, and Weaver, but I'm not sure anyone besides those three men know exactly what was happening behind the scenes.
My understanding on Pete Hughes was that it wouldn't have mattered if Weaver had matched the offer, Oklahoma was a dream job for Hughes and he was going to take it. If that's the case, than losing him isn't on Weaver. I agree however with your sentiment about how coaches in general were treated by the administration regarding salaries over the years. We ran a frugal, slightly profitable business. If Whit is able to generate enough donations to support the basketball hire being above what we currently expect to be able to afford, it probably pays for itself in the next few years as basketball revenue increases due to us being competitive again. Still a business run in the black, but one being proactive to remain a major force in college sports rather than diminishing returns eventually returning us to athletic anonymity. This hire essentially could go a long way from us ever becoming Maryland, where they just cut seven varsity sports.
I don't think Hughes is a very good example of how it shouldn't be done. He more than bought into the VT culture and resurrected our baseball program, and left for a better program at Oklahoma (who has big boy money to spend on athletics). I feel like a lot of VT fans expect coaches to commit and stay around as long as Coach Beamer has, when in today's world that isn't a reality. VT basketball isn't any of these candidates dream job, it is merely an opportunity to establish themselves by resurrecting a bad team in a great conference. While one day I hope that it becomes a job that is envied by basketball coaches. At this point in our basketball program we do not have the prestige or the history to keep an established basketball coach around long term. I believe this hire is a stepping stone to bigger and better things for our basketball program.
Agree with both of you. Joe, I think you are absolutely correct when you said we can't rule out anybody. Babcock knows what he is doing, and a home run hire that nobody saw coming wouldn't surprise me one bit although I'm not expecting it.
It took us about 3-4 hours since JJs firing and we as fans have gone from the worry, worry, worry content of our pre-firing threads about the B-ball program to: Let's hit for the ceiling and go for it. Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!
This, my friends, is refreshing! Well done, Whit! Let's see the rest of what you got over the next few months. Its gonna be interesting. I know this sounds a little cold towards JJ, but we must look forward and we all know this was best for the Hokie Nation! The collective thoughts and mindsets I mention in these threads indicate exactly that.
It's sites like this that quickly let a guy like Whit know he did the right thing from a fans perspective. Certainly that isn't all that he based his decisions on but it certainly is a decent piece of the PIE!! There I said it!
I know someone with basketball experience that should be able to bring some intensity to our defense.
#rogers4coach
We've been down that path before.....
I remember Randall and Jeff King playing basketball, but who is that? Not ringing a bell. And I'm not believing Jeff King had cornrows.
Terry Taylor and his 3 inch vertical leap. He was a Ricky Stokes era guy. Jeff King had a sweet hook shot though.
I just remember jeff spazzing out when he had the ball lol
Jeff King came up HUGE in the Duke game in 2005. You can see his sweet hook in this recap of the game:
If I'm not mistaken he also played a HUGE part in a 5 point play that completely turned the game around for us. I think it might have been the play on the replay but someone hit a 3 with a foul on the play, missed the free throw, King grabbed the rebound and nailed the hook shot. Went from down 3 to up 2 in 1 possession and that one play got us the momentum to carry through to the end.
Terry Taylor - PF/C in 01-02 and 02-03
Career Stats
That would be THE ONE AND MFING ONLY TERRY TAYLOR
One of my favorite memories at Tech was rushing the court after we beat UConn in 2003 (had seats court level across from the bench that game) and forming a dance circle while Terry busted out some sweet moves there on the court. Good times... good times indeed
Could we partially hire Coach K? We could make a deal where he could coach Duke 90% of time and VT 10% of the time. That would still be an improvement.
Seriously though, I hope VT does step up and invest some money in a good hire who can provide a great ROI.
So I know this has been tossed around, but I am going to bring it up again. It's very obvious after today that Whit will be dedicated in trying to build up a highly competitive basketball program. With that, we all know that something needs to be done with Cassell. I know we had a thread on this not too long ago, but do any of you think after today that this will show a fast commitment to do a major overhaul or is this still something way in the future? I know Whit said he likes the more traditional venue like what we have, but it needs some major upgrades. Still, unless we are selling seats and the demand gets higher then it probably won't happen.
I hope WB realizes that he needs to bring in a heck of a coach first (I'm pretty sure he does) but that's going to cost $$$. It's been noted on here several times that we'll be paying 3 salaries. I think he'll need to figure out a way to generate that money before he worries about facility upgrades. I'm not certain how the fundraising is going to take off but I'm hoping he's able to bring in lots of money and keep a steady stream of income; only time will tell. Sure, if he's able to bring in significant amounts of money we'll see some upgrades in the future, but I wouldn't expect any until SG and JJ are both fully paid.
I agree. We simply don't have the cash right now to immediately do any sort of overhaul. If Whit sends a message with this hire that says, "I care about the future of this program," he can probably use it as leverage on the donor base and put a plan in place. It's like what he did at Cincy, if I'm remembering the details - he came up with a plan over several years for facility upgrades, fundraised like heck, and pulled it off. Transformations take time, and given the tight budget we have currently, it's going to take time. I don't doubt that he'll commit to changing things, but any plan is going to have to wait until the budget is in order, which may delay things going in motion for a couple years.
As a current student, I am fully against a new stadium. Uva did it because uhall was a piece of crap and I believe it housed their practice facilities as well. We have a state of the art practice facility, so I don't think we lose recruits because of cassell. As a fan, who actually decides on attending games because of the venue? I mean, if cassell had major viewing issues I understand, but there are literally no bad seats in Cassell. I have never felt my experience was diminished due to how old the building is. Cassell is a fantastic place to play and watch games, no need to spend money to build a new arena at this point in time.
You can renovate it, for God's sake put a swanky new floor down or something, so 80's to look at that thing... make it Cameron-esque and a "beautiful, fun and terrifying place to come play against the Hokies... you just need 10,000 rabid fans to lose their minds... no need for a new facility (consistently winning would be your first argument to even broach that talk) and we don't need it...
I'm pretty sure that floor has been redone at least 3 times in the last 6 years.
Yeah, it was just completely repainted this past summer. The only thing happening this summer is the usual redo of the top layer of poly and the ACC logo is being switched to the most updated one. The biggest change, though it may not be likely, would be the maroon lane being taken away and it just being wood colored like it was before.
I'm not opposed to keeping Cassell the same. I'm not opposed to some subtle upgrades. I wouldn't even mind a pretty massive overhaul...as long as it's done right. That's the key right there, it needs to be done right. If we have the same guy who picks our football Uni's in charge of renovations to Cassell, I'd rather it just stay the same.
Cassell Coliseum is a study in a wasted revenue opportunity in the NRV.
We desperately need a multi-purpose facility at Virginia Tech. Badly. We need a venue that will attract shows and concerts year round to bring in additional revenue to our athletic dept to offset the costs of operating the building, because, to be quite frank, we don't bring in nearly enough fans on an annual basis for basketball to make anything else feasible.
And Cassell doesn't have any bad seats? I beg to differ. Those corner seats are cramped and they are bad. Sat in there numerous times when I was a student and I hated it. Yes, the rest of the seats are good, but once again... wasted revenue streams. Why? Absolutely no way to put in corporate suites, and the corporate suites are the ones that make you bank in owning a facility. And for those of us who constantly complain that we need students ringing the court.... Have you ever tried to sit behind someone who stands all game long in Cassell? You can't do it and still see the game. So you're gonna try to tell me that we should ring Cassell with standing students directly in front of the bigtime donors who generally are the elder alumni who, in most cases, physically cannot stand for an entire game. And before you suggest sinking the court and the first few rows, consider how much the court is already sunk on the baselines.
Cassell needs to be replaced. Its an outdated arena that eliminates potential revenue opportunities in the NRV. At this point, we should already be considering a 10-15 year plan to develop, build, and open a new facility for VT athletics. We're not Duke. They're able to keep Cameron around because they're DUKE, the name of the school is plenty to sell to a recruit, and they have had numerous historically great players playing on that court, so the aura and mystique of the place sells itself. Cameron has every bit the historical importance to its sport that Fenway, Wrigley, or Yankee Stadium has/had on baseball. Comparing Cameron to Cassell would be like trying to put one of those 3 places on the same level as say, Veterans Stadium.
Not going to disagree, but we need to establish a BB program first. We also need to figure out a location for this new multipurpose building. Space on campus is starting to get a lot more sparse.
Location?
Where Cassell is currently to still allow for the quick access to the practice facility as well as still keeping the football facilities as a part of an overall structure. Tear down the facade and the roof on Cassell, dig out the bowl again to allow for the baseline seats to be court-level, and build up from there with a state of the art facility to match the architecture throughout campus.
We already have an established BBall program, its just not a very good one. Having a snappy new facility would create buzz we just don't have right now. And plan this now to have it ready in 2025-2030. The school could REALLY use it.
My worry on that is that you are talking about a likely 2 year construction project. Where does the team play in that time? Roanoke?
Roanoke... I could also see them playing at maybe the Salem Civic Center
I don't really think that's fair to the students who want to watch hoops. Or to the hoops team.
I think the die hard students will go and it would attract some of people from Roanoke that may not normally come. Plus knowing the situation, I'm sure the team would schedule most of the OOC as away games, so it would really only affect the 9 or whatever number it is at that time conference games. They could probably even play at Radford.
The short term pain for all fans would benefit the university as a whole and the basketball program specifically for probably the next 30 years and we are going to use upsetting a year or two of fan participation that's already at the lowest point in at least a decade as the reason to not do it?
If that really becomes the final hurdle than they would need to find somewhere else on campus to hold the games (Fieldhouse is the first that comes to mind) They play college basketball games on aircraft carriers and other outlandish places these days. Universities replace arena's all the time too so I am sure that Whit would have access to how they managed.
Fieldhouse is probably the more viable option. Pitt played in one for years. It would keep team on campus which is huge to get student fan support which is the most important. Students should guarantee at least 25% capacity at all games. I expect a huge Cassell renovation within the next 5 years but it can be done during the offseason and be ready for ACC play the following season if done right.
War Memorial. Buckets are worth 1, play to 13. Call your own fouls.
+1. I did this so many times, but we played to 15. Thanks for the memories. Too bad my left knee has decided this isn't viable any more...
In War Memorial you gotta Win by two.
Corporate boxes would be a waste of money (and lots of money). We still have trouble selling the south end zone boxes. Think anyone would pay $10k+ to watch our BB team right now.
I say do the impact projects first: new court, concourses, and move the students closer to the floor. Then once you've got a winning program that consistently fills the Cassell, consider boxes in the top corners.
Once again, because of the way Cassell is situated, you CANNOT move the students closer to the court without ticking off the high dollar donors. All those great sight lines we talk about would be completely ruined in a layout that includes students closer to the court (in other words, standing in front of donors).
That whole issue is a non-starter in this environment in that facility.
And the box would not only be for basketball, it would be for any event in the new facility. Concerts, monster truck rallys, rodeos, WWE events, (maybe VT hockey in the future?) etc. The area would be able to attract all of those events, and the suites would be open for them all. This is about far more than only football. Heck, the concerts alone would potentially get the suites sold annually.
There are 4 sides to the court. If the students were on one of them courtside, that leaves 3 others for those donors to choose from. If it adds energy to the environment and the program, I highly doubt donors are going to complain. They donate in hopes of seeing a good program and to see that their money was well spent.
With a realistic vision of possibilities I am throwing out.
Jeff Capel
- Young (39)
- Knows the State
- Knows the Conference
- Is the guy who should get the credit for starting what Shaka has a VCU
- Had success at Oklahoma had to resign due to NCAA violations that he was not part of (opposed to Bruce)
- Sitting next to Coach K at Duke
Posted it before and support it again here. In the ACC with recruiting ties up and down the east coast he would be a force.
I'm hesitant on Capel. He did good at VCU, but really accomplished nothing at OU when Blake Griffin wasn't on the team.
We should accept that we will need to find a coach with some flaws and hope his good outweighs his bad.
I was a fan of the Seth hiring at the time because I remembered him at LBSU. He then went to USF and performed like Capel at OU. He needed to get out and he wanted to show he was the same hot-young-hire he once was at LBSU. For better or worse, Seth did a lot for us (remember the Stokes era?)
I see this search going similarly, we need to find a coach with some flaws who has some upside. I Capel would be a good choice.
With the Big East practically falling apart and diminishing in value, are there any coaches we can possibly poach from one of those programs?
If we hit it out of the park Buzz Williams, the coach at Marquette.
looks like we were on to something after all!
this is easily the most educated website in the whole wide internet!!! Not just for football, but also for net-hoop-sphere
I really wish we could re hire Mr. Seth Greenberg again. Say what you will, but he lead our team into a top 25 ranking in basketball, which I really don't ever remember seeing in my 28 years of following the Hokies. I think Weaver really did him wrong after what he did for our basketball program. Greenberg couldnt help that we were constantly disregarded from the NCAA Tournament. There was a lot of exciting basketball being played by our Hokie with him at the helm. I say bring him back.
No.
There was a reason he was fired. He couldn't win games he should've at the end of the season. Personally during his tenure I think there was only 1 year we were truly snubbed by the committee. The other seasons ended with bad losses and you can't do that as a bubble team.
So you want to beat 1 top 25 team every year, then lose to 3 teams outside the top 200? Because that was pretty much the Seth Greenburg Formula.
1 NCAA appearance in 9 years
Squandered the Best recruiting class in VT history (Delaney, 00, T Bell, Zo, etc)
Squandered the second best recruiting class in VT history (Vassalo, Dowdell, Tuff guy Jamon, etc)
Horrible OOC scheduling
Can't wait to get back to that.
Weaver was probably more to blame for the OOC scheduling, but have to agree with everything else.
Weaver had nothing to to do with scheduling. The only thing he does is give it the final ok, but the teams are responsible for setting and scheduling their OOC games. It's usually one of the assistants that does it. I know for Women's, Joyce does it and I would venture to guess that Ramon or Kurt did it for the men.
No
Seth was a great guy, but no. Yes, we beat some good teams in his tenure. Hell, you could say we beat some GREAT teams during his tenure. But we also lost some completely and utterly unfathomable games that no competent coach should ever allow a team to lose. And even in games where we won, we still did so in extremely ugly fashion.
We deserve better than thinking being on the bubble is as good as it will ever get for us.
Just to add one more to the pile: NO. With a capital HELL in front of it.
Removed: Didn't comment in the right place
Why are we worried about the new basketball coach? We're just gonna move him to tight end anyways.
My question: even IF Babcock and the department were able to pony up the 2.5 mil for Smart and staff, would Smart be able to fix the shitfest that is Hokie hoops and how long would it take.
A loooooooong time. Look at VCU's roster. There are probably 2 current guys who could play on that system. Probably take 3-4 to get them in.
I sat on my couch watching UVA finish the ACC title sweep thinking to myself what could have been for Tech basketball if we made a home run hire like Tony.
Tony came in to an ACC school, recruited a core of solid players and coached the hell out of them. This should be the blueprint for Whit, right? Hire a guy who can do the same? We don't need a guy who can bring in 5-stars, we need a guy who can coach up what we have, bring in solid talent that wants to play in the ACC, develop and build a group that plays great team basketball.
And that should be possible. We're a large ACC school. We have a student/alumni base that will support good hoops.
I expect to see at least two more losing seasons. Not sure if this will result in "moving forward".