https://youtu.be/A03Ioytlyx4?si=dQYMvScl0GrvKIdq
Shyrone Stith, Todd Washington, and Corey Moore just went on Dwight Vick's podcast and really let loose., Moore especially (I know, shocking).
From what they're saying they love Pry but, as Moore put it: Pry is trying to win the ACC with a staff that's barely above MAC level.
Really sobering listen.
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Damn, there is so much to unpack here. I'm about half way through and here are the items that hit me in the gut:
1) Pry is the Guy - Moore
2) Overall team hype attitude is lacking - Moore
3) Speed of players is lacking - Moore stated he came VT slow and became faster via S&C and development. This team isn't fast.
4a) WR's aren't getting off of the CB's in their routes - Stith
4b) Our WR's can't get off the press man coverage - Washington. Kinda answers my question as to why Jennings isn't getting thrown too. Or is a big factor not so much the lone one.
5) Need to do more Run Action Protect played for Jones - Washington. Basically, play to the teams strengths. He elaborated on establishing the run first through Drones and Tutten, soften the D and then pass
6) Technique, Technique, Technique, Technique- Washington. It's the granular details of why technique matters and says coaches aren't focused on this the way they used to in his day.
7) JC Price had to break up a fight between two players during warmups for the Marshall game.
There's more and I'm not done listening, but this is well worth watching.
EDIT: Then around minute 37 the barn doors are blown off when Moore starts talking about the staff. Holy Toledo.
one thing no one mentions is that Galt is as green as Marve and Bowen. He had 2 years at ODU as a director.
I remember everyone saying that Galt was one of the homerun hires of this staff.
You play football with your legs. Mike Gentry focused on that- he was one of the best to ever do it. When Fu was hired, everyone was like "Gentry is outdated, glad he is gone" - well we have been smaller and slower ever since he left. We need more emphasis on legs/speed. Like golf- that is where your power comes from.
Haven't listened yet, but this reminded me of something else I was told - I forget exactly who explained it to me, but the premise was that Bowen is really good at finding/designing/calling plays that exploit/target opponent weaknesses, but not that good at capitalizing on player strengths. He plays to the opponents weakness, but not necessarily the Hokies' strengths. So when those things happen to align, results are great. When they don't, results are shit.
Number 5 is the biggest point I agree with. Team speed is lacking on defense as well.
Leg strength makes a huge difference in other areas as well. I ran track in high school and could lift all sorts of weight with my legs. At 5'9" and 125 lbs at Tech, this guy on my hall randomly decided he wanted to literally push me around. He had to have been between 250 and 300 pounds and I was the one pushing him around. Mostly leg strength, but figure lower back muscles helped too.
This is something I noticed, especially in the season opener. Moore talks on the pod about how he and the whole team would go crazy celebrating big plays. With a few notable exceptions (Tuten, for one), I haven't really seen much hype from the team this year. Wondering if that's part of our slow start problem.
I just don't buy this stuff. I've seen world class athletes with ice in their veins, who barely celebrate. I think you need to figure out the type of person you are, and lean into it. If you're loud, talkative, etc, then lean into that. Celebrate like crazy. If you're quite, more reserved, then don't pretend to be something you're not.
The celebration argument was one thing I don't buy. Alabama under Saban was subdued and still whipped ass. I realize why they were subdued....
John Riggens scored often and always handed the ball to the refs. We are all wired differently
Yeah I don't think we have a bunch of loud guys on defense but we definitely have some shit talkers on offense. Drones likes to talk after a lot of his plays.
Defensively I can't really think of anyone that really goes after the opposing team, maybe Fuga - most of our defense seems level headed we need a LB or DE that's off the rails a little.
I saw Peebles getting active in the ODU game lol
Yeah.
This was me playing rugby.
Asst coach trying to jump all over me one day after a score saving brutal tackle that ended the game in regulation time.
He couldn't believe I was so reserved until I looked him in the eye.
Under the heavy influence of adrenaline, people express very differently.
union or league?
union
I was almost always like this whenever I would play anything. I always liked letting the scoreboard at the end do all the talking. Granted, a few excellent plays I'd get excited about, but celebrating(or complaining) can distract you, especially if your opponent decides to play fast. Get your ass (and head) back in the game.
Didn't see the podcast, but from reading the start of the thread, my first thought is.....we've been here before. Beamer was forced to upgrade his assistants, and it worked out pretty well for him. Not sure that we have six years to wait on that, though.
The game has sped up. And by that, I mean the coaching game.
Corey Moore nailed it- Pry may or may not be Lombardi, but we know his staff is "MAC level". There is not a big time proven D1 guy on that staff that came with him. Mines is doing well now, but he didn't have that resume either. When Fuente was hired, the only P5 experience guy he brought with him was Vice. Foster and Wiles were already here. He fired Shane- who had P5 experience and hired a videographer to take his place. Point is on back to back staffs, Whit has gone on the cheap for coordinators and it is showing.
It wasn't cheap when they were hired though!! These guys all got 60-150% raises from their previous stops, with very little experience.
Whit alluded in the press conference to Fuente coming in and "just hiring his buddies". Always wondered, how is what Pry did any different?
Do a money ball approach... take that same budget and instead of hiring Bowen, hire a guy that HAS been an OC- not position coach- from a MAC, AAC, etc. school. We needed experience there- even if it was at a lower level- being an OC is a skill- its a different job than position coach. We desperately needed someone who had done it before. Same with Marve- although our head coach HAS been a DC this was less of a risk, but still- I'd prefer someone who has done the job. Bryan Stinespring has 10 years P5 experience as an offensive coordinator at a top 15 program - for example. Bowen had 0 years when he was hired. You can get an experienced OC- you might not have 2 million to pay him, but find someone that has done THAT job before.
This is exactly what Vanderbilt did, that's what makes that loss all the more frustrating. It was apparent that coaching made the difference in that game and it was NM State's coaches that did it, not some SEC powerhouse of a staff.
Jerry Kill is now at his 5th P4 school and was head coach at Minny, Tim Beck while lighter on the exp is at his 2nd p4 school. So they aren't as green as some of our hires.
Exactly, Jerry Kill is a bit of a special case, but you can't tell me Pry can't find and hire coordinators with experience similar to Tim Beck. Shit, we had Brad Glenn on staff already, not that his Cincy offensive is looking great, but he made a hell of a lot more sense on paper at OC than Bowen.
In regards to P4/ experience, Tim Beck was an offensive analyst for one season for a 5-7 TCU team. That's way more green than Bowen, who had 4 years of P5 B1G position coaching experience and 4 years of B1G graduate assistant experience.
Tim Beck was HC at Pittsburgh state for a decade and an OC there before that (a DII school). As HC, he won two conference championships and a national championship during his tenure, although early in his tenure and did not sustain success.
We should've just made Brad Glenn OC when we hired him. I never understood that move.
OC is a skill. It's not the same job as QB coach, pass game coordinator, etc. Look at Eric Beinemy. In KC he was the "OC" but Andy Reid calls the plays. So, he was really just a glorified position coach. He goes to the Commanders- is named the actual OC, and can't do the job- he stunk at it. Now he is the OC at dumpster fire UCLA- but at least he has done it before and will likely be better now from his time in Washington.
Well, we probably would have other complaints, mixed results thus far, idk...
Cincinnati SP+ Offense Ranks:
Final Postseason 2022: 73 (final season of HC Luke Fickell, OC Gino Guidugli)
Preseason 2023: 75 (first year of HC Scott Satterfield, OC Brad Glenn)
Final Postseason 2023: 96
Preseason 2024: 64
Post Week 3 2024: 49
VT SP+ Offense Ranks:
Final Postseason 2022: 125
Preseason 2023: 88
Final Postseason 2023: 62
Preseason 2024: 43
Post Week 3 2024: 44
Pull his SP+ numbers from Georgia State.
Cincinatti is a shitshow. They made a terrible hire right after switching to a new conference that made the job harder. I don't read into that too much.
You're right, we don't know that Brad Glen as playcalling/OC would've worked. But it would've made sense.
yea, I agree there.
I will note that if Bowen doesn't get Drones, Tuten. and the WRs, it'd much worse. So, he (along with Mines) definitely deserve credit for that. And I'm not sure the recruiting success would have been the same with Glen at OC. Or maybe it's a different QB with other skills. Nothing is a simple assessment.
I have wondered for a while if Pry prioritized recruiting and using the budget to build the ancillary staff knowing that he might have to shuffle things around once the roster improved if the coaches didn't grow into their roles. I'm very curious to see what if any changes he makes.
Interesting point of view. If this is the case, then Pry playing chess instead of checkers and... I'll allow it.
I second this 100% as this tired argument of we need some guy who has a name we all know won't work - we don't have the cash. However, hire talent with the right experience - not a trust me bro hire. Great comment - can I give 10 legs?
I do think Mines has done well for recruiting. I haven't really seen WRs get open on their own this year. It's absolutely glaring when a play breaks down and Drones scrambles to buy time and can't find an open receiver when it should be super easy to get open. Every wide receiver in that room has the athleticism and talent to get open on any route or at least battle with the top CBs in they face. I'm not sure why that isn't happening. Maybe there has not been enough focus on getting open in zone coverage.
Did he really fire Shane? I thought Shane left to go get a job, not because he got fired. But even if he did get fired, he'd been the one implicated as the person responsible for taking the Wake Forest plays in the WakeyLeaks scandal, so wasn't in a great place here anyway.
Bowen and Marve are in over their heads?
Real breaking news, that revelation.
With you it's not a revelation. It's one thing when fans say it, but when a group of former players and one being a NFL coach say what they do from a staff and S&C perspective.....if that isn't a proverbial smack upside one's head, well.....
It's a level of expert, legit "consultation", that Pry should listen to this and make the coaching moves after the season. It's so "in your face" that changes should be made regardless of outcome.
Offensively, I just don't understand how you can go from the way last year ended, seeing our offense take off based on a dedication running the damn ball with Tuten allowing that to open up the passing game, and go right into this season completely pass happy in Vanderbilt. That just showed a complete lack of awareness of what our identity is and a coach who thinks he can scheme his way to success rather than just allowing what works to work.
Those kind of coached can only work if you have elite talent. We don't have that.
I'm not arguing that Tyler Bowen is Andy Reid by any stretch, but with limited prep time, breaking in a new OL mostly, etc. I think its as simple as Bowen seeing a single high safety and cushion out side coverage and says- throw the ball. That's "typically" taking what the defense gives you. Vandy had an extra guy playing down - so the thought is you can't run the ball. Now, where he went wrong was- use more RPO then to try to get the defense guessing at least, etc. From a football standpoint, you can't just turn around and hand it to Tuten to "establish the run" if the defense has 10 guys in the box. You may be running the ball, but you won't get many yards.
We were pass happy? That's news to me. We ran the ball a ton we just did it the most vanilla way like at the start of the last two seasons. You know, the scheme that didn't work. And almost all of the passes in that game were east west, we didn't stretch the field at all until we needed multiple scores to comeback. Basically Bowen learned zero lessons from last year and went back to a scheme proven not to work with these exact players.
I'll add that we also seemed very slow to line up and almost telegraphed where we were going every single play. Some of the worst offenses I've seen constantly do this. Whereas last year it was guys in motion, misdirection, counter, a lot of RPO's, just anything to make it difficult to predict where the ball was going to go
There is a large lingering stink around VT football that is fucking sad. And apparently it's still here. We are going on 10 years of horseshit now and that creeps into the culture. You become a "losing" program. You forget how to win, you fight each other before the Marshall game, you try to tank so you don't go to a bowl, you complain there is no Turkey bacon. Fucking stench that is legit an issue right now. I look to the one common denominator from 2015-Now- who could that be? oh that's right - Whit Babcock.
Or President Sands.
The three most visible people at VT - the president, AD, and football coach - all left within a 2.5 year span, after each spending over 15 years on the job. When you look at everyone one the job in 2016 - Whit has worked a JMU, WVU, and Cincinatti. Sands has worked at Purdue and Cal. Fuente worked at IL state, TCU, and Memphis. No one in a leadership position has worked at a Power 2 Football program (until Pry came in).
Everyone talks about how important 'alignment' is in college football... better hope the issue doesn't go beyond Whit.
Wow, eye opening stuff. The part about the players with the power over staff is the part that doesn't sit well. I will continue to say that tech does not play tough. I wonder what we will see this weekend against rutgers
Todd Washington would be a great addition to the coaching staff as an OL coach.
Checks a lot of boxes.
We need to hire Nick Sorensen as DC this off season. Go big or go home. He is the DC of the 49ers... so he's not "a first time DC". Whit would actually have to pay him more than 15 dollars per hour though, so it's a pipe dream. But that would be an absolute home run hire in terms of former players.
Nick is, and has always been, sneaky good. Underrated in my opinion both in college and the pros. Super flexible, multi talented, great attitude and great hair.
I'm not sure anyone is leaving a NFL coordinator gig to come to VT to do the same job. Unless he's getting fired or something. But regardless that's one hell of a paycut most likely.
Why would it be a pay cut? Pry would be the 13th highest paid NFL coach. Unless you are Andy Reid or Sean Payton your better off in college.
Edit: fixed typo
You work way less in the nfl though
I think you travel less and probably have less responsibilities but I can't see anyone working less. There aren't practice limits or limits in coaches contact with players. In the NFL you can get beat every week by just about any team so they sleep in the office and put in 18-20 hour days. That's not less than college. They just more time to focus on actual game plans and other on the field football stuff.
In season is probably similar, but it's the offseason. You actually have one in the NFL. You don't have to recruit.
You have one in college (if you follow the rules) there are recruiting dead periods and now with early recruiting day you don't have a ton of work in January. The season is also shorter so you don't have as many grueling weeks. You also have to figure out how the trades and draft affect you team and watch a lot more film in the off season.
It's 100% easier to not travel though, so even if you're putting in the time the travel kills as you're probably eating bad food and stuck in a car half the time and for non-extroverts it really sucks glad handing coaches and parents.
The dead period is just no face-to-face contact, though, so it's really a "dead period".
With essentially unlimited coaches now, I think he might be a good addition as an assistant o-line coach. His wiki says he's not currently employed right now and to me that's a pink flag. I don't want to hire coaches simply because they were Hokies. If Washington played at any other school, would you feel the same way?
I'm not sure I view this particular situation as a "pink flag".
The reason is because of what he said on the podcast about making "family decisions" over "business decisions"
It seems like the Jags went a different route and that he was content to sit with his family until the right opportunity came along... which, ironically enough, sounds like he's waiting on VT.
I admittedly did not listen to the podcast, but just looking at his career, he was o-line coach at San Diego (and then OC) for 3 seasons ending in 2009. So that's a nice stint, albeit 15 years ago. From then on he has bounced around the NFL and UFL, always as assistant o-line coach in the former.
So he's 15 years removed from college experience, never at P4, and never ran the line himself in the NFL.
I'm not trying to knock Todd, and I wish him the best, but again, objectively, if he's not a Hokie, is this the experience you want leading the o-line at Tech?
I agree with this objectively.
However, I'm beginning to wonder if anyone at all would be an upgrade to what we have now. Surely it can't get worse, right?
I think it could always get worse. 😂 I don't think Crook is anything special, but my reasoning wouldn't be he can't be worse than what we have now.
I also think a new coach every year is part of the problem at a position that takes years to develop a player.
If a career position coach who won a superbowl as both a player and coach wanted to join our staff to address a weakness, I'd be interested regardless of their alma mater.
As the offensive line coach or as an assistant o-line coach?
I mostly agree with you.
Looking at the current situation - where half our OL have had 3 coaches in 4 years - I wouldn't advocate for firing Crooke to replace him with Todd (but love the idea of hiring an assistant). But, if Pry were to clean house on offense, and Todd was a fit, I say do it.
Our sales pitch to recruits is competitive NIL, a path to the NFL, a family culture, and a great school with a football culture. The Washington hire directly speaks to NFL development and family culture.
How many NFL players has he developed?
I think pry could use a Jerry Kill like assistant. His in-game coaching decisions are very suspect still.
I'd take Jerry Kill as a head coach in a FUCKING HEARTBEAT.
Take Jerry kill as coach every day and twice on Saturdays
Hell yeah I would. This guy knows what's up.
Amen. Would love to see what he could do offensively with this roster.
Yup.
I am generally against the "bring back Joe Schmoe" former VT player to coach at their given position because without any legitimate coaching experience, it just doesn't make sense.
People are always clamoring for a DHall to come coach DBs or whatever, and I think its dumb. Good coaches do not always make good players.
However! Todd has 2 years of college OL coaching (and OC) experience, 4 years of UFL/AFL OL coaching experience, and 5 years of assistant OL/Offensive assistant coaching experience in the NFL.
I think him having played center, and therefore understanding the line calls, having grown up in VA and (presumably) having connections with some VA HS coaches, and also having the passion for VT gives him a cherry on top.
I think if we hired him and he had a different alma mater I'd be fine with it.
Man I would listen to a Corey Moore podcast every day. He doesn't hold back and I think he makes a lot of good points.
He ends the podcast with "buy me a beer I can talk football all day" so I'm gonna go find some beer and Corey Moore.
TwoDeep should jump all over this.
Well at least it's good that it isn't just us casual fans saying it now. Maybe this is the snowball that will cause the coaching staff turnover avalanche.
Pry needs to get it figured out quickly. Right now IMO our poor coaching is being buoyed by some quality players with good experience. If we experience zero coaching staff turnover, then how do you think we'll look next year once Tuten, Stephen Gosnell, Layne, Jennings, and Felton have all graduated? It doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.
Every one of those guys - our best offensive players including Drones- came from the portal. Every one of them. So its about time we supplement that with some high school guys- or go get better guys from the portal. It can be done in the era of unlimited free agency.
to be fair ... with the roster fuente left the only way to have good seniors is if they came from somewhere else
And Moore absolutely substantiates this. He said the roster Pry inherited had nothing. He stated twice that Hokie fans need to temper their expectations as 6-8 wins seasons are the more realistic ceiling right now.
Pry makes 4 million per year and is in year 3. He has had ample time to replace kids that can't make the 2-deep. He's done it in some areas, but the Fuente roster excuse is stale. Year 3. He has had 3 offseasons to get 22 kids that can play in the ACC, WADR.
Pry has said that 2025 will be the season to then judge his body of work. He's completed two seasons and is in the front end of his third. I think Moore is saying that's not enough time and that he was starting at ground zero with the program's state of affairs when he took over. Not a stale excuse but realistic terms of program health.
Folks have sited Beamer's # of seasons he took before he hit his 1993 stride. I would take away take away his first two seasons (87&88) due to sanctions before counting the number of seasons it took him (5 seasons).
IMO, I don't think he has had ample time. I do think taking his first four seasons is a solid baseline body of work, in which to judge, which the 2025 season book-ends. For example, if he does makes staff upgrades at the end of the season but sees a digression from 24 to 25 due to roster turnover, folks would give Pry his 2026 season to improve with the right coaches.
This seems reasonable.
This is a measured, and likely the right, take. Unfortunately for Pry, fair or unfair, we (college football) aren't in the same place as we were during those early Beamer years. Pry doesn't have 6 years in this current landscape.
Additionally, his 2025 roster will be significantly less "seasoned" next year. He's losing a lot of production on both sides of the ball. I'm not saying he needed to make the playoffs this year, but he needed to show significant progress. Especially with how committed the doners have been to keeping the roster together. We simply haven't seen progress. We may have actually seen regression in some areas.
Finally, I don't think the VT donors are going to continue to pony up year after year for less than mediocre results. It's sad, but this is where we are. Pry had a golden opportunity to show something this season, but he has failed thus far IMO.
I agree with you that we need to let things play out. I agree with the guys on the podcast about him being "the guy", but we aren't where we were 35-40 years ago. Pry will need to make significant staff changes in the offseason to show he is serious about the VT football program.
Doesn't have 6 years to do what?
Pry's contract is for 6 years, expiring in 2027. What do you need to see to give him an extension? What do you need to see to fire him before then?
I think I was pretty clear about stating that I think he is the guy, but if you need some specifics from me, here they are...
1. He doesn't have 6 years to do what he's currently doing - spinning his wheels at everything but the offseason. I think the NIL $$ will dry up if the lateral trend continues. Just my opinion. Could be wrong.
2. I need to see progress. Any progress at all. This lateral movement where something is broken every single week is old and tired at this point. We aren't physical, we aren't disciplined, we aren't prepared, we are predictable, etc.
I love Pry and I think he is the right kind of guy, but the gift he is to the VT program in the offseason isn't translating to results on the field. We need to do much more than compete with Marshall and ODU. We need to do much more than struggle with teams like Rutgers (hopefully we see a full game today!). Maybe I explained my thoughts accurately here.
There's been no progress since Fuentes last year?
I don't see things in a linear way like this.
I think Fuente would not be struggling to win with this roster. I also think Fuente would not have been able to get this roster. So, I don't think it is one versus the other.
And of course we've made some progress, but I don't think we are seeing the progress that our roster and the investments made in this roster demand. Again, I'm not suggesting Pry needs to go, I'm only suggesting that he has a significant uphill climb if they can't turn things around this year.
This seems dead on. It's super frustrating to feel like we've finally got some real talent back in the building and still see the same results.
That's at best 35th-40th in HC salary this year.
Thats not top 50 money. We ain't paying as well as Liberty. We paying Pry like he's a 6-6 coach. Pry is the 3rd best coaches pay in the state of VA
NC State, Cuse, UVA, Miami, Clemson, FSU, UNC, Wake, UofL, Pitt all pay better than VT. Diaz mad 3.6 mil as DC at PSU. I doubt he's not making 4mil at Duke.
We aren't paying Pry to compete at the P4, we are paying him to be at the bottom of the P4.
He is making 4.75 this year, of confirmed salaries and best available information for private schools and PSU and Pitt He is somewhere between 35th and 40th at best, he might be as low as 45th, don't think he is lower than 50th.
The data I saw was 4.0 mil so yes if he is making 4.7 that moves him up but still puts him 40th at best based on the data I could find. Amd yes the data isn't as accurate as we'd all like.
But even at $4.7, he is then in line with Liberty and UVA for pay. If we are supposed to be the premiere football school in VA then why do the other schools pay close to us? Why are our salaries likely similar to Duke, a million less than Kansas, and less than half of Kentucky's? We aren't competivie on football pay with the basketball schools.
Because Liberty has more money to spend and throw around same with UVA and Kentucky. I have no clue how Kansas is justifying the salaries they have paid their last three coaches.
Kansas has a lot of money
Kansas pulled in a mil less than VT in FY 2023
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Articles/2024/06/20/university-of-...
Do they?
Any way we can get Corey on staff too?
Director of motivation
Directory of Hospitality, Terror Dome
Watch this video. Tons of insight on the state of the program / team. Get these guys in the current locker room.
Wow...
Some important VT alums saying out loud what we all know and see. A couple of observations...
1. I don't want to rehash anything that has been said above. But the bottom line is we have a broken, losing culture at VT and Pry has not yet turned that around. I do believe he is the guy, but he needs to surround himself with a better staff (sounds like Todd Washington really wants a job. Give that man an effing job!!!).
2. The anecdote about Beamer in the locker room at halftime of the bowl game against UNC where he told the team, "no one's job is safe!" was interesting. I'm not sure that approach is viable at VT right now. You can take that approach at UGA, Bama, OSU and a few others, but if you take that approach at VT the staff will run the players off (they can simply transfer somewhere else where they can be coddled). I'm not pretending to know the answer to this specific issue, but Pry needs to figure that out as well.
3. I'm really glad these guys feel free to discuss their thoughts. We need more of this until we see the culture change.
"they can simply transfer somewhere else where they can be coddled"- bye, peace out. Let their soft asses go. You can't win with those guys anyway.
I think that was Fuente's line of thinking and it burned us a bit. The current state of affairs in CFB makes toeing this line a lot harder than it used to be. That's why you're seeing the Sabans and Stoops of the world getting a little fed up and moving on.
The fact that Todd Washington and Corey Moore aren't a part of this coaching staff (especially Todd after his comments) is criminal. I don't know if Corey has any coaching experience without looking it up (or maybe he doesn't want to be a college coach) but man... his attitudes towards how the game should be played is contagious. Players would run through a brick wall for him.... Bring on DHall while were at it.
I was curious about Moore coaching as well and I cannot find any info on him ever coaching. He's currently the assistant dean of academic advising and student success at Kentucky's nursing school.
Wow Kentucky stealing another Hokie SMDH.
He is working on a doctorate in higher education administration while working at UK. He also was a real-estate developer at the time of his induction into the College Football Hall of Fame in 2023.
I think that Marve OR Bowen could have worked but they both have to many learning on the job moments and they can't bail eachother out. If we had Bud and the 2017 defense everyone would want Bowen to open up the offense but Vandy would have been a win. And the conversatio would be around why isn't Bowen showing more RPO game, etc.
If we had an offense scoring 45 ppg the everyone would be like Marve has some work but we had a top 20 defense last year etc. Doesn't matter that their are cracks seen in both. But loom at Rutgers, if our LBs don't play mentally sound the entire game they will break a huge run. If our offense doesn't score every drive in the 1st half we are just going to get ran on. The room for slop is small.
I also think this was a mistake to get 0/2 without ample coordinator experience. I went back to the staff hire threads to find the discussion about Galt and this was and has pretty much been the concern since they were announced and I think its becoming very apparent that this needs addressed. I'm so hesitant to do a wholesale change on defense and offense though
I am leery of replacing both but I can see the worst coordinator being shown the door at the end of the season if anything less than 7 wins happen.
Hard to argue with that. I mean, those guys all played for Beamer and Foster, who had Big Time pedigrees, right? Maybe we should find out what big city conference Beams and Bud came from before Virginia Tech, and go coach-hunting there.
I see what you did here.
The thing is tho.... Beams and Bud both wound up being hall of fame caliber coaches. Murray State got any more of them kind of coaches?
Well, probably not hahah.
But it's the chicken and the egg question. Are the coaches great because of the players, or are the players great because of the coaches. I don't know the answer, but I'm willing to bet you we'd be 3-0 right now if we had either Michael Vick or Xavier Adibi playing on this team.
The thing is tho.... Beams and Bud both wound up being hall of fame caliber coaches. Murray State got any more of them kind of coaches?
Fuente spent time at Murray State
Yeah but everybody forgot about the hall of fame caliber part
I'm pretty much checked out on this staff. I like Pry but he's got to win and he's not doing that. The rest of the coaches have done nothing but prove they don't belong in the P4.
While I have not listened/watched this yet, just read breakdown and comments - makes me have even more faith I what I was told - that Xavier Adibi will be promoted to Linebackers coach.
Not that that our on field performance doesn't already show a change is needed.
Want reply to myself and make it clear that I in no way believe this is a solution to the on field problems, just info.
If we continue down this path, I don't think we will need to worry about current coordinators making a lot of decisions for this team.
I don't know whose fault it is, but this fanbase deserves better. And I absolutely hate the word 'deserve.'
Maybe Pry should be the HC and the DC. Save an entire salary. Hire better assistants with that money.
I actually think he should be HC and LBs coach. New DC, hire an additional DL coach.
Yeah, that would be interesting and would make a lot of sense. I'd be onboard with that.
Our coordinators suck. Hiring guys who had never done the job before and expecting them to have VT playing good ball in quick order was never going to work. But even with those low expectations I'm still disappointed in just how bad this is.
Our linebackers suck. They rarely fill the right gap in the running game. Yeah we held Rutgers to under their season average yesterday, but part of that is that they were able to run the same play action pass over and over and the LBs were biting on the fake every time. Just terrible performance from a unit that we knew would be weak, but somehow hasn't learned a damn thing, and arguably has regressed since last year.
Our OL is shameful. We have guys starting who probably wouldn't be on the 2-deep in any other P4 program. There has been no progress made in getting them better since Bowen was brought in and yesterday it almost knocked Drones out for the year when Clements got pushed back onto him from the snap in the end zone.
We have no identity. I have no idea what we are supposed to lean on offensively. We have no rhyme or reason for the way games start and unfold. There is no strategy, and that's completely indicative of why it's a terrible idea to hire coordinators who have never done it before. They don't know how to manage a game, and it's actively losing us winnable games this year.
I cannot comprehend how Montavious Cunningham can't beat out Parker Clements at RT.
I definitely think he should have started the 2nd half with that sack/safety tackle Clements had on Drones.
I know it all happens fast, but with bull rush like that, it should have been easy for Clements to redirect that rusher and use his momentum to push him out of the back of the end zone. Seems incredible foolish to try and just stand him up.
Seems like a little technique would have gone a long way.
Also, Drones has to have some awareness of this possibility when he's standing in the end zone.
If you're standing in the end zone with the ball, you've got ONE JOB, and it's to successfully get the ball out of there.
I mean he got it out of there, it was just the wrong way
"and it's to successfully get the ball out of there."
Either Cunningham is in the dog house or Clements has blackmail on Ron Crook. Nobody was under the illusion that Cunningham was an elite portal recruit, but based on the available tape, the expectation was that he'd contribute. He needs to start.
Don't think he has it between the ears. He's shown the physical ability to be out there. Something is holding him back. There are only so many things it can be.
Probably the same way that Drones somehow couldn't beat out Wells last year. I think this staff has inertia with regards to its lineups and just wants to roll out the same folks they've played previously
The hokies are not a good football team and they are not fun to watch. They aren't even motivated to play the game, they don't even look like it until the second half. Well, I'm not motivated to watch them. I slept most of the game. I'm not going out of my way to watch this anymore. The coordinators and some of the assistants need to go! This will hurt our recruiting. No quality player wants to go to college and not be developed. These kids have regressed and the football is low-quality value. Getting mad, and downvoting will not change the facts!
Good football teams find a way to win...see Rutgers.
Bad teams find a way to lose...see Virginia Tech.
Great teams impose their will on you until you give up or the talent gap becomes obvious...insert blue blood programs.
We are all disappointed in two close losses that we woulda, shoulda, coulda won if it weren't for "ABC" reason(s) that makes one want to slowly shove a stick in their eye to help ease the pain that is VT Football.
When we talk about where we stand this year vs last, I can't help but look at the results vs the same opponents to glean from. If one looks at the results from an offensive production, preventative defensive output, and W-L record, we have improved.
There's a saying in business, "We get paid on results, not effort". In my argument, I am putting all the stats outside of the final score and overall record as "effort" based stats. Basically, the effort produced this many yards per carry as an example, but how did that translate into the "results"?
Here is the data:
Season 2023 / 2024 / VT O & D Delta
vs ODU 36-17 / 37-17 / +1 & 0
vs Marsh 17-24 / 31-14 / +14 & -10
vs Rut 16-35 / 23-26 / +7 & -9
W-L 1-2 / 2-1
On both sides of the ball we improved vs the same teams from last year. Our overall record improved as well. There is no debating the results. They are what they are. Regardless of effort, our results have improved.
I will go back to what Corey Moore stated on the podcast...Hokie fans need to reset expectations. This is a 6-7 win team this season. We are one play away vs Vandy and it's win. We are one fumble away and Rutgers is a win. Basically, we are very very close to being 4-0. Last season at this point, we were far and away from being two plays away from 4-0. We were an "Insert dumpster fire gif". Remember that?
There is no need to rehash where our disappointment resides. We know the factors. I was extremely deflated after the Vandy loss mainly because of me. Not the coaches, not the players, but me. My hope was set at the point of most probable failure and disappointment. My brain, eyes, heart, body, and soul had set a high expectation that hurt so bad after the game.
There is no doubt we can upgrade our coaching staff. I am not defending them here. I am acknowledging the fact that no matter how disappointing they have been, we have improved from a losing record to a winning record. Our production on both sides have improved and we have a winning record on the repeat opponents. I did level set my expectations after Vandy and it showed on Saturday. I had a great day with family and friends watching college football, even after our loss. I'm keeping a quarter full approach to the rest of the season. Trust me, I want more, but it's not worth putting myself and my family through watching VT play with that version of me.
All of this is very true and great. And then Parker Clements gets his as royally kicked for a safety, and Mose Phillips can't tackle on a 70 yard screen. IF we didn't issue stupid fucking duplicate numbers, we would have beaten Vandy- but we do issue stupid fucking duplicate numbers for no legitimate football reason, so we have to swallow that as fans. It's what kids want now- their number from pop warner, regardless. So choke on it. At any rate, point is that we can talk stats all day. Against Rutgers and Vandy WHEN IT MATTERED, our players weren't good enough. Clements on roller skates in the shadow of the goal line getting mauled is not an ACC level tackle, and it was the difference in the game. We don't have John Engelberger- who actually was big enough and smart enough to seal an edge- we don't have him, so Vandy's former D3 QB runs wild. I thought the talent was better this year and it's not. You will see that on full display in prime time on Friday night. We think Mansoor Delane is a pretty good player, and he might be. He will be abused constantly by Xavier Restrepo to the point you will want to throw your remote. Think Conception dominating us last year times two. We don't have the talent.
Clements on roller skates- that cracks me up. That dude is something else. Watching the safety on Saturday left me speechless.
What you describe above showcases how absurd it is that we are not 4-0 right now.
I said this in another thread, but that safety is not entirely on Clements. Drones gets some of the blame there. His pocket presence has been suspect all season, and it bit him in the arse. He didn't have the awareness of 1) where he was at relative to the end zone and 2) not taking into account Clement's' struggles to that point and knowing he needed to watch out for the strong side rush. It also didn't help that the play call had Drones' attention to the left side of the field. In summary - that was a total cluster-f$&k of a play and neither Clements, Drones, or Bowen did their job well.
Correct. Point is that Dave Kadella, Sergio Render, Duane Brown, etc are manning up and winning that 1-1 battle with the game on the line and in the endzone.
100%. We are soft up front. My only point is that our QB needs to be aware of that and get the ball out. Our OC needs to be aware of that and call an appropriate play to get the ball out fast, and not a call that takes more than .5 s to develop.
"Recruiting" is a legitimate football reason.
It is better, at most every position but OL and LB. Which is why we see inconsistent execution in the offense, and poor run-fits and play-action recognition in the defense. Three things that are just killer, and negate the talent increases in other positions.
And I don't know how it gets fixed. How does Pry not recruit better linebackers? Do we have talent in the trenches that are still being developed? I just don't know, but I do know that we're not going to get much better than 6-7 wins without improving those two position groups.
"Recruiting" is a legitimate football reason.- nobody is coming here for the duplicate numbers. If they do- we don't need them.
No, but the potential of getting a single-digit number could be what puts one school over the top. That factor can't be dismissed outright.
That duplicate number issue should've been handled by the special teams coordinator well before the season. If he'd been doing his job, we wouldn't even be talking about this right now.
Yep, hard to watch that one.
You can hear Eddie's frustration. His perspective is no different than the fellas on the podcast and is rooted from being a former player. His summation is a post game affirmation of the podcast.
He literally hit every nail on the head that was discussed.
"...played a better game than anybody on OUR team....". Eddie still cares. And is not pleased.
Contrast that with Kumah who tweeted yesterday that Drones should have taken the "bag" from LSU.
Kumah is a douche
Too bad Soup Hokie and his bro have been banned. I would have liked to see their drunken angry thoughts on the Kuma tweet.
I'm not banned. And I'm not gonna apologize for insinuating the team deserved a long walk home to think about their shit play. But I haven't seen the tweet.
I thought the greyed out comment meant banning. My mistake.
Nah, it's when you click their profile name and it takes you to the broken link page with Beamer doing the thumbs down. Usually it's temporary (I think Alum caught one after Vandy) but sometimes it's permanent (Many examples).
the killer thing is that the play call was actually a decent one that had a good route combo and was intended to be a quick throw... 5 yard out-route under a clearing vertical up the sideline..
A classic "3-step-drop" route... you can't wait until the receiver (TE Gosnell in this case) looks wide open, you have to assess whether he has leverage on his defender (he did) and whether the CB is bailing (he was) immediately and then throw the ball. If somehow you realized a beat late that he's not going to be open or the CB is actually camping the flat, then you adjust mid-throw to throw the ball into the stands...
and you absolutely don't stand still as your consistently weak RT get's pushed directly towards you
if Drones had thrown the ball on time there is no sack, no safety.
Hell if Drones had moved his feet and drifted to open space in the pocket there is no sack, no safety because WR Gosnell was on a shot crossing route that was also shaping up to be wide open a couple beats after TE Gosnell was wide open.... almost like it was a well designed play to give the QB an open receiver in different parts of the field in sequence in case he was looking off his first read
Bowen gets a lot of crap for his performance as OC (rightly so) but I think it more comes down to his failures as a QB coach and inability to recognize what his QB can and cannot actually execute.
This is the thing with VT's offense for 30 years. YES, you need a good play call, good QB read, good tempo, AND a tackle that doesn't get beat like a drum. You need ALL of those to work at once and a play caller that calls plays you can execute. I saw an interview with Chris Peterson once- twice the coach Pry and Fuente are- and he stated simply "we have been successful with gadget plays and 2 point conversions in critical times because we practice them constantly and can execute them in the game" - VT doesn't have plays we can execute perfectly EVERY time and we desperatley need some of those.
That's very generous to Pry/Fuente. When I think of the best cfb coaches in the last 25 years, it's:
All that to say - Peterson knows what he's talks about
Agreed. The saying goes 'don't practice something until you can do it; practice something until you can't make a mistake'
The closest thing we have is a Drones/Tuten read option. Not sure why we don't make it an RPO and run over and over again.
I feel that Joe Gibbs is one of the best coaches to coach on any level. And I find myself going back to his main tenants constantly :- 1. Never take points off the score board- kick the short FG, don't go for it on 4th down. 2. ALWAYS have a bread and butter play (we don't have that at VT) and 3. Always take a shot on offense immediately after a turn over /sudden change when the defense is demoralized. He won 3 super bowls with 3 different QBs and arguably (72 dolphins, 85 Bears, 2017 Pats) the 92 redskins are in the team photo for best NFL team of all time. Gibbs always had a play that worked- even with Jay Schroeder or Marc Brunell at QB
I'd take issue with #1, but even us nerds recognize that (a) it's extremely situational and (b) If you use 'analytics' like Michael Scott uses a GPS, you will fail. I can also understand prioritizing certainty over uncertain upside.
Regardless, #2 and #3 are spot on. And #2 is our issue for us. Either we aren't good at anything, or we don't do the thing we're good at. I think it's about 40% the former, 60% the latter... I don't understand why we don't just run the shotgun triple/RPO to death.
Yeah, Dan Campbell goes for it on 4th down a lot and he will never win a super bowl or go to the hall of fame. But I hear what you are saying. My pet peeve on that is when Beamer - and others- punt in plus territory and it goes through the endzone...so essentially a 15 yard punt. go for it, try a long field goal or make sure your punter doesn't kick it into the stands.
's far as I know Gibbs remains the only Head Coach to win multiple superbowls with a different QB each time. Any discussion about all time great coaches would be woefully incomplete without him.
If VT had "The Hogs SWVA Version" then Drones would be a heisman candidate.
VT currently has not the hogs. I'll leave it at that.
A few comments (please forgive my randomness):
But like you said, the QB should have been able to execute that.
Et tu, Eddie?
He's right. It was hard to watch that one.
Not a quality product. Can it get better? It will have to if they want any wins.
I mean at a certain point, you're just outright saying their coaching and development hasn't been good, because there is no excuse for their "eyes to be in the wrong spot too frequently" if you're actually preparing them for how to defend any simple misdirection.
Good thing Whit hired a "defensive" head coach, eh?
So many of the coaching mistakes seem to be Marve/Pry thinking, "No way they'll run the exact same play that worked perfectly the last 8 times." And Bowen thinking, "It's a stretch for our guys, but they'll never see it coming!"
This has happened so many times in the past 3 years. Gashing a team with a run or pass scheme and then it just disappears. "We're torching them on the ground they'll never see 3 passes in a row coming"
I was on the VT sideline once when Beamer inexplicably called a timeout. We had run the ball right down the field and apparently a pass play was called on the 10 yard line. Long story short Beamer chewed Hite and everyone else's ass out saying run the fucking ball - exact quote. lol.
man, and I thought that over the course of the first 3 games Woodson (#25 jersey for this game) had been playing pretty well...
It's hard to imagine the offense being worse than Cornelson, but....
We bitch about Bowen having "no experience as OC"... but we wanted Stiney's head on a stick when he posted better numbers than this after he had 5 years experience as a P4 OC. lol.
We need to recruit linemen, and linebackers. Stop recruiting wide receivers as we don't have anyone that can get them the ball.
Well, if were to put money on it, I would bet that the WR room will not be as.... "full" next year as it is this year. I can't see a scenario where our talented group of WRs stays in Blacksburg for the $h1t show that is our offense.
well, yeah. 3 of them graduate
that was the obvious point I was not making.
If Todd Washington wants to be our OL coach...let him!
I mean, what are we clinging to?
Mediocrity!