I had my reservations as well. Returning a lot of production is good, but returning weak O and D lines and linebackers isn't necessarily a good thing. I think if our lines and linebackers were better, the run and pass game would be SIGNIFICANTLY better and our secondary isn't too shabby either.
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My first response when I read this post was that it was a step too far and an overly emotional post. However as I have sat here digesting this latest embarrassment I am inclined to agree with Joe. I thought Whit was a good hire, and maybe he still is, but he has used up all the goodwill he initially had. He will have to earn his worth going forward. He is paid well to administer a top athletic program (which at VT has to have football as the absolute focus) and at this point the results simply are not there. I repeat, the results are simply not there.
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Babcock inherited a top 25 football program and over the course of his tenure it regressed into a bottom feeder. Any changes that are otherwise made are superficial.
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Seems to me he inherited a football program that was already declining, even if things looked OK on the surface.
What was Whit going to do? Fire Beamer? That would have ended his tenure pretty quickly. Beamer had earned the right to retire on his own terms. He was always going to be a hard act to follow.
Fuente was a bust, for sure, and Whit held on to him for too long. Fuente managed to squeeze a couple of good seasons from the team as the talent was dissipating. Felt good at the time, but we later figured out it was unsustainable. He could recruit, but he couldn't hold on to the players. He left the shelves very, very bare.
Pry has the right idea, and Whit is letting him do his job. He deserved the opportunity to see if he could do it his own way. Seems to me he'd hire coordinators with more P5 experience if he had the budget.
Results indicate some big changes this year. Probably going to have to break out the check book. Not sure how firing Whit would change any of that right now, unless you just fired everyone and started over.
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I mean, just playing devils advocate, but income is limited. Either we have to decide to stop competing somewhere else (Olympic sport X), or we have to fundraise better.
People were pretty upset about men's basketball roster turnover, losing Kenny Brookes, etc. Can't have it both ways.
So we need to fundraise more. But people are also upset about that.
Like I said elsewhere, tough to know if whit is failing to bring in money, or if we're tapping out alumni and business partnerships.
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Board of visitors, President Sands then Whit. The questions have become after decades of being behind our "peers" is any AD going to be able to get the money needed to truly first turn things around and bring us up to par then keep the money going to keep us there. Despite some on here who don't want to talk about money or facilities those are real issues in Blacksburg. Our HC is making somewhere in the 35-45th pay range, our two main sports lack many of the fan amenities that our peers have started introducing years ago, our Olympic sports are now suffering from some of same issues and will start to fall behind quickly. Does the administration as whole in Blacksburg have the vision and ability to pay the bills, provide the infrastructure and land that is going to be needed to keep up?
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The flat answer is "No." VT is an institution/program where the success is going to have to come before the money. Unfortunately we seem hellbent on, or cursed by, making complete fools of ourselves whenever things start to look like they are on the upswing. And that, as we all know, was a problem back even in the Beamer years.
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The school and athletic department had the chances from '99-'10 and we barely raised ticket prices, didn't increase Hokie Club minimums, didn't require minimum donations for season tickets except for best seats, our facilities looked like late 80's early 90's high end high school programs. Some of that has been addressed, the new nutrition areas, new weight rooms, new team meeting rooms, but now we are where other teams were at 5-10 years ago.
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I didn't even know about the Hokie Club until 2010 I think, was living in Ohio, had not once heard of it growing up in VA, been to games in Blacksburg seen Tech play in bowl games and early season neutral site games. No advertising.
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Jim Weaver was excellent at managing a small athletic program. When it became bigger he resisted doing the things needed to sustain growth. We small timed ourselves for years and when the world shifted again in the 2010 time frame we were woefully out of date.
As a 2000 grad I still marvel at our complete lack of ability to capitalize on the success of 1999. Missed opportunities abound that reverberate today.
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This is the answer right here. Those missed opportunities back then have made Virginia Tech just another P5 bottom feeder. You're seeing it now and will continue to see it as NCAA football turns into a professional feeder league for the NFL while VT gets left in the dust. All because one guy wanted to keep the books in the black while actively trying to not make or receive more money from the "paying customers."
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I'm in my late 40's now, so I saw VT almost reach the summit as a student and was certain at the time that we would be able to build on that and reach the top sometime "Soon" (TM). But as I get into my "get off my lawn" years I have more perspective. The state of CFB now is not going to be kind to small programs, and VT is first and biggest in my heart, but we aren't big time. The missed opportunities of the 2000s and 2010s are unrecoverable now. There is a massive revenue gap that is only going to get larger. Recent developments in both the transfer portal and in player compensation are going to uncap a talent war that we are not equipped to win long term.
VT might have a top 30 NIL program but I suspect the rankings are non-linear and are only going to get more exponentially differentiated. Our conference is the 3rd best but still lags behind the top 2 by a factor of 2x or more in revenue for example.
Those agitating for VT to get better now so that we can get a seat in the next realignment wave have missed what has happened. The NCAA is out there talking about allowing schools to directly compensate players via trusts. No more NIL fig leaf. Ohio State, Texas, Georgia, etc will have a player payroll that will dwarf our entire athletics budget. There's not enough upside in the Big-12 or a renegotiated ACC that can cover that gap. Disney is losing its ass on all fronts. They aren't going to be able to sustain spending even more. You can see the future shaping up now with all the helmet games that are being promoted on each session of College Game Day. Brand on Brand. Eyeballs. NFL Jr.
What's coming next in my mind is Contraction. The legacy P2 conferences can't kick out charter members like Indiana and Northwestern and Vanderbilt. But the Tiffany brands like Michigan, Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, et al can opt to leave those leagues and form what will be a new competitive division of "college" sports. That's what's coming. The PAC-12 was destroyed in service of this as Fox and ESPN fought over the best pieces for their respective captive broadcast markets.
There will be a new Division 0 of CFB with maybe 20 or so teams that can support a professional-scale level of competition. Virginia Tech won't be part of that. South Carolina won't be part of that. Indiana won't be part of that. On and on. The entire world is shifting and it was too late to do anything about it maybe as far back as 15 years ago.
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And I'm 100% fine w/ that, as long as that's how it turns out. I'd love to be in a league w/ UNC, NCSU, GT, UVa, etc... Let me off the money/CFP railroad. I don't care about pro sports. I won't care about pro sports wearing a college costume either.
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Scenario 1- Whit Babcock's best in class research and super secret poaching of the great Justin Fuente and keeping Bud Foster was a genius move ahead of his peers, it just didn't work because we let other athletes come into Merryman to use the facility as opposed to "football only" and the training table only had pork bacon. Give Pry a huge building only used by the football team and vegan options, and we are back, baby. (doesn't appear to be working, but give it 6-7 years) Scenario 2- Whit Babcock is a fucking clown that has never built a program that won a natty- in any sport (Stanford wins them every year, UVA wins them regularly) and he hired an overrated prickly G5 coach who made his reputation taking Memphis from absolute shit to a win over BYU in the Bahamas bowl and let him keep his G5 staff that never recruited in the P5, and behind that he hired a guy that was never a head coach anywhere and 2 coordinators not on anyone's radar because Pry understood Blacksburg and the lunch pail. We are going back to 1995, even getting the Vick uniforms and we are going to win with the lunch pail mentality again. That -could- work? sure? but that would require a defensive line that can set an edge and not get blown off the ball and linebackers like Del Rio, Newsome, Tate, Semones, Adibi, Hall, Edmunds, hell even Bruce Taylor. So here we sit with shitty leadership from the AD and no lunch pail players to carry the lunch pail. I think SI once printed "dark days in Blacksburg"
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There's another issue that I have harped on before, and that is cheapness (is that a word?) of a large portion of the Virginia Tech community. I've been around the university for a very long time and have heard a lot of people pitching a fit about how much money gets "wasted" on football. Others whining about donating even $25 a year to the Hokie Club because "they have taken enough of my money for my undergrad tuition" or "they don't pay men enough for my university job, so they can pound sand if they want me to donate." Others saying "I'll start donating when they get back to the MNC". I'd be willing to be, though, a large portion of the people here on TKP are not in that camp, but to truly keep up in the arms race of college football, we need absolutely everyone buying in and supporting in every way they can.
All of that has been an issue for a very long time, and compounded with your points that the administration didn't take more drastic steps to capitalize (for the long-term benefit of the program) on that massive success...VT football has essentially tripped on its own shoelaces, and we have really no idea on how to get back up. And it really, really sucks given how we can still sell out home games before the season starts, against opponents that aren't even ranked!
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They spent over 1 million dollars to design and implement an academic logo. Instead of doing the smart thing that big name brands have done and combine the academic and athletic logo because brand recognition is athletic for most people.
Miami, Oklahoma, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington merges theirs all before 2017, what does Sands and Co do spend over a million (that was estimate in 2018) to separate the two, why?
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It would be like buying a website that most of the world either uses or knows the name of, having the name of the actions you do on that website be worldwide known word and then changing the name of the website for some reason! Then being shocked when its value goes down.
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Frank Beamer really sucked at the end there- making bowls, putting people in the NFL, beating UVA, being respectable on the field. Those days of VT football really sucked I tell ya.
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JMU, Kansas, ECU, Wake, Duke, Pitt all losses some of them multiple times in his last 6 seasons. All with subpar recruiting, poor fan buyin and no facilities plans long term. Again this attitude that because Frank did it in '99 with less everyone should be happy to do it is stupids and shortsighted and missed what was happening around us for decades.
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Kansas was a top 10 team when we played them. JMU was 5 years before he retired, and we won the fucking ACC that year- Beamer really sucked in 2010. Yes, he lost to a couple bad ECU teams. But unlike Fuente - who had many more resources, he never missed a bowl his last 20 plus years and he last lost to UVA 12 years before he retired. There is no comparison. Beamer also magically was able to recruit NFL draft picks his last several years.
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The argument is that evidence shows Whit is not capable of putting VT in a position to win, in (at least) one of the three ways:
he has made unsuccessful hires, in which case you need someone else to make the hires.
he isn't financially supporting football. In which case we need someone who can fundraise better and/or distribute existing better revenue more effectively.
his skill set doesn't match what VT needs in the new world of cfb
IMO It's tough to diagnose the specific issue given that we can't see his every decision, like we can a football coach on game day. But I get it - we're going on a decade of mediocrity.
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Maybe- Coastal Carolina is a better baseball program, UVA rolls out of bed with anybody on their roster and is in the CWS, we are below the mid ACC level etc. Babcock sucks- at everything.
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My only fear is that those weren't 'whit decisions' as much as him falling on a sword after being handcuffed.(obvi pete morris does apply here, but the lack of spending in general, and the justifications that came with it)
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I do agree with you that Whit likely got overruled from Sands on replacing Fuente in 2020. Enough smoke there to put two and two together. But I don't think Whit is secretly a great AD and just being handcuffed. I frankly think Sands is very hands off with athletics and defers a ton to Whit in that regard. Whit just isn't a good P4 AD and it's really starting to show. He doesn't know how to run a successful football program, and he has made two bad hires (not looking good for Pry right now) and won't get to make a third. Plus both basketball programs are now either circling the drain (men's) or under complete rebuild (women's).
I think Whit is behind the lack of spending. The weights weigh the same comment, not giving Fu more resources, etc. I think if a new AD could convince Sands he needed the funding and get his buy in, he would give it to athletics. Just don't think Whit is the right guy at this point. Even some of the insiders on the other boards are starting to comment that things aren't particularly well-run in the AD and not a place with good vibes right now.
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I don't think Whit is secretly a great AD and just being handcuffed
It's also binary; he could be just 'good' and be somewhat limited by his superiors.
I frankly think Sands is very hands off with athletics and defers a ton to Whit in that regard.
It's not just meddling; it could be the general direction. If Sands says the priority is a diverse athletic department that competes in 22 sports (whatever the number is), and he's not willing to invest purely in football (even in the short term) then Whit is limited.
Sands is one of the presidents who voted to add Cal and Stanford to the ACC for negligiblr direct financial improvements because he wants VT to be viewed as peers to those institutions.
Whit just isn't a good P4 AD
Despite everything I said above, this could be true (in addition to or instead of). I just don't have the insight to make that call.
I think if a new AD could convince Sands he needed the funding and get his buy in, he would give it to athletics. Just don't think Whit is the right guy at this point.
I'm also open to this argument. But is Sands and the BoV going to hire a guy that will push back or no?
At the end of the day, we have some combination of making bad hires and/or not having alignment. From my perspective, it's unclear where the disconnect is.
Allllll that said, I agree whit doesn't get a second chance to hire a football or MBB coach.
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Allllll that said, I agree whit doesn't get a second chance to hire a football or MBB coach.
I sort of feel the writing is on the wall here. I just feel like we are going to have to make a change at AD, and the next person is going to have to hire a new football and MBB coach. In regards to Pry...I hate to say it, but I think we hired VT's version of Mike London. Great salesman, terrible coach. I think Fu likely was a better pure football coach than Pry by a significant margin, but obviously had other issues. It's clear we are not a well-coached team and this staff isn't P4 caliber.
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Didn't Whit hire a basketball coach who took VT to the elite eight?
And didn't he hire another who took VT to the women's Final Four? And when that coach was stolen, didn't Whit hire another coach who seems pretty decent within a week?
And didn't VT win two ACC championships in basketball?
Isn't fundraising a lot better than before Whit was here?
I'm not a Whit fanboy, but objectively, he's a decent Athletic Director, which includes overseeing more than just football. So suggesting that we fire him because the football team lost two games by six points total seems a bit over-the-top, especially when most of the people here aren't even convinced that Pry should be fired.
I'm as mad/concerned as the next person, but scapegoating isn't the answer, and it's not realistic.
Unless you hire someone who can spin hay into gold, switching the person in the AD seat isn't going to fix what ails the football program. We know football is #1, and so does Whit.
Yes, some seats should be getting warm enough to make some visible changes to the football coaching staff. No, we're not going to pay Pry to go away right now.
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Herein lies the problem with this argument. You say that being the AD requires overseeing more than just football. In a sense, you're right. But realistically, and financially, football has to be the main priority. It is the revenue maker that supports your investment in other sports. If the cash cow dies, your whole athletics department dies. You can't make unsustainable investments in those other sports and let football continue to decline. It's just not feasible at a school like VT where we don't have P2 money or enormous donor support like UNC or UVA for non-revs.
Whit has failed enormously in the number one most important duty of his job - run a successful VT football program.
What ails the AD and VT football program is largely one key thing. Yes resources are always important, but we have enough for VT to perform and reach its ceiling. We have a small town country club AD with too many legacy holdovers from the Beamer days and too many people who have never been a part of a winning, championship caliber AD making decisions and running the program. It's why a first time coach like Pry was able to hire two first-time coordinators, but he was connected with the right circles in Blacksburg that helped him get the job. We have to get away from that mentality and hire the best coaches for the job, not the best fit with the circles at Blacksburg Country Club. There's a reason JMU loses coaches but continues to be a strong program - they hire the best coaches they can for the job and understand football.
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We all agree that football is the most important. My point is that it's not the only aspect of the job.
And the problem with the "Let's fire Whit" argument is that it doesn't accomplish the goal of making football any better, if it's still "Let's wait and see" on Pry.
"Let's fire Whit" is premature, as Pry still has years on his contract, and we won't be buying him out right now. It makes no sense to fire Whit unless you're also firing Pry.
I can't disagree with the Blacksburg Country Club argument, because I don't know anything about that. But nobody was getting hired when Beamer was coach unless they got along with the folks who established the program. If those folks are still around and holding back the program, I think they're all fair game.
The more immediate fix is to scrounge up some resources for Pry, and push for some more immediate changes in the coaching staff.
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Winner right here. Where are these surplus funds going? Obviously not reinvested in the program. This is Whit's MO - do things on the cheap and roll surpluses into bonuses and raises. Cry poverty and quietly squirrel away $5 mil.
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1.8 mil is in the top 20 coordinator pay (overall not just offense or defense). ~850k is what we pay. We had $5 mil in profit last year. So 5 mil is 2.5 mil per coordinator, or 2.5 years of pay to hire top coordinators
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We have the resources to reach our ceiling - and that ceiling might just be competing for the ACC and occasional playoff conversation. Didn't say our ceiling was annual national title contender without a major influx of cash.
We are struggling to be middle of the pack in the ACC, which is unacceptable given teams like Wake with no real football fan support have been far better coached and won more in the last several years than we have. We have the current resources to be competitive in the ACC as it is.
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This is my point of view as well. Let's maybe try to reach out potential before we complain about resources. I would love to spend SEC money on football, but beating Vandy and Rutgers should be possible without needing waterslides in the athletic dorms or paying unproven highschool QBs seven figures.
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And there we go, Tech's issue for the last 40 years. Focus on seeing results before committing to resources to improve results. It took Frank Beamer accepting a job at UNC after taking the team to a NC game before people even thought about upping the pay scale and that lasted 3-4 seasons.
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Money is a macro issue, but it's hard for many to want to give more when the team performance continues to go down. At some point the team has to show you that they can beat Vandy and Rutgers. If we had SEC level resources today, I don't think the powers that be would use them appropriately anyway. I guarantee everyone on staff would just get raises if they make a bowl game.
Case in point: if VT played JMU right now, a program with a much smaller budget than VT, they would absolutely smoke us. There is little confidence in the AD and staff. Who wants to give more to that? Even Mehul over on 247 posted in a non-paywall thread expressing some heartburn over the amount of his own money he has poured into this disaster.
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The issue is we needed that money 5,10, and 15 years ago for long term success today. You don't build a program (not a team) teams can have bad years look at FSU, Michigan, Bama, Clemson, Texas, UGA etc true long term success programs they ALL have have had bad years sometimes even a few in a row. But they had the money and resources to fix the issues in those bad years and come out the other side better. Tech hasn't so when our bad times started can we make it back up the hill?
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I agree with you there. VT completely squandered its window of opportunity in the late 90s/early 2000s to really take advantage of our program momentum and emphasize fundraising. While we were in our peak years, we should have really ramped up Hokie Club. But we didn't, it was a country club operation to ensure season ticket holders got their seats and parking passes. And here we are today - that culture was never fostered and we are at a 30 year low in football, with glory days further in the rear view mirror. People are tapped out, especially in this NIL age. There is no incentive to give now when we can't even beat teams that we should and look as poorly as we do on the field.
It can't be stated enough how much financially was put into THIS season. We tanked the basketball programs and diverted a ton of cash and NIL money from our big donors to retain this roster so we could make a big step back into national relevancy this year. Basically VT put almost all of its dry powder into this season, and we look just as bad if not worse than last season. Fans and donors are tapped out, and the team is going in the wrong direction.
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Actually, yeah it kinda is. He didn't say where that ceiling was, just that we aren't reaching it. Which, if you agree that our resources should be getting us a better result than what we have been seeing for the past decade or so, then you agree with that basic premise.
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We did, however, go to the Sweet Sixteen in Men's basketball (for the first time since 1967), the Final Four in Women's basketball (first time ever), and won the ACC championship (first time ever) in both men's AND women's basketball.
My point is that we should give Whit credit for that, as he deserves it. The coaches responsible for those teams were all hired by Whit.
Yeah, football is not meeting expectations. What's the best way forward? I don't think it's firing the AD right now, even if his seat should be starting to get a little warm.
The best way forward is to let Pry make some changes and see if he can right the ship.
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I think Ballein might be a bigger problem than Whit. He meddled with Fuente and they didn't like each other. He apparently hand picked Pry. Football has sucked basically ever since Beamer left and Ballein has been at the center of things
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If you're going to clean house, clean it. Don't keep around anyone who has their hands in the football cookie jar. Keeping around the guy who is helping pull strings behind the scenes during the worst period of VT football in about 30 years is insane, and its ridiculous he's still here and managed to essentially get a promotion through the Fuente crisis.
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It's coaching. Plain and simple. I'm tired of the moral victories of well, we played with a lot of heart and fought back...blah blah blah. It's tired and old.
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I was fine with moral victories each of the last 2 years. Not anymore. They have to win a [bleep][bleep] 1 score game and beat a P4 team outside of the ACC.
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I mean, a three and out to start was not ideal, but we did force a three and out. At that moment, I thought well, maybe the next drive we will get things going.
Then, of all things. A fluke turnover.
If only his forearm had hit, or elbow, or knee, any fucking thing. It just seems like when bad things happen, this team falls into the trap it's been in for at least a decade. A losing mentality.
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That is such a stupid rule to me. How in the 100+ years football has existed there isn't a rule distinguishing someone's palms from the top of their hand.
I've never seen someone trying to keep their balance with the top of their hand. That "fumble"was forced by the ground and logically should have been down by contact.
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Tyrod kept a scramble alive by putting the back of his hand carrying the ball on the ground. If the ball had touched, he would have been ruled down, IIRC.
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We lost 2 years in a row to fucking to the New Jersey state school that is not called New Jersey State.
Appreciate the fight. But that is not good enough in year 3 with all the returning players. Less than 7 wins and Marve and Bowen need to go. If Pry won't make the change, Pry needs to go. They have 8 more games and can turn it around. But running out of excuses.
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I'm not sure I'd say Bowen needs to go. I think our O-line is SO bad it makes it hard to get any kind of plays to work. I feel like we saw that last year, we did some scheming to make up for the line, but any time we played a team with a really solid D line, we couldn't make much happen. Both our lines just got overpowered today.
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The D-line was one of the brightest parts of the Hokies today. They were blowing up plays. Rutgers averaged 2.9 yards per rush, gave up 3 sacks, 7 TFLs. The D overall was OK, but couldn't get off on 3rd down and blitzed into a back-breaking WR screen that led to the game winning FG after tying up the game. And that especially true when you consider the D was on the field for 40 minutes of the game.
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The Defense played well enough to win this game. If the offense did anything at all in the first half Tech would be walking away with a victory right now. They aren't the 85 bears but they didn't lose this game.
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You could say the defense definitely played well enough to win. For 25 minutes of the second half, they played great, and allowed the offense to get back in the game. You could also point out that they got very little pressure on what was a questionable QB coming into this game, took forever to adjust to that jet motion RPO play that Rutgers ran over and over to devastating effect, and gave up a back breaking big play at the end. Rutgers left points on the field in the first half, but they moved the ball efficiently, and TOP eventually took its toll at the end. If the offense was more consistent, and kept the defense off the field for 5 or 10 more minutes, this defense would have been enough. But they didn't, and this defense was just not good enough to win it on their own.
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I think our O-line is SO bad it makes it hard to get any kind of plays to work.
We've had 2 OL coaches (not to mention that Bowen was an OL coach in the past) and we've seen at best marginal improvement on the OL in 2 seasons.
Maybe the personnel is that bad. But you still need to scheme around your weaknesses. Leipold has done it twice. Key has done it. Vandy did it this season.
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Team takes way too long to get going. For 3 quarters we are among the worst coaches teams in the country and then we turn it on to crawl all the way back and then completely collapse.
I'm tired of this same old song and dance
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ACC Network panel just absolutely lit into the coaching staff, and deservedly so. This is a mess. This team has no identity and that's all on the coaching. We should be better than this.
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Sad, but true. Whit is 100% to blame for this shit. Look, I wanted, so bad, for Pry to be successful at Tech. He's a country style boy with great heart and good in public. He's Frank Beamer 2.0 tbh. But he is also Fuente 2.0- too goddamn loyal to his buddies and too scared to have hard conversations. Whit need to go first because NOBODY deserves a third shot to hire a football coach. After that, let the next AD decide whether to keep Pry and Co. for the future. I'm done with this shit. We obviously have the talent to win these games. If we don't, it's coaching and that either gets fixed or it gets fixed higher up.
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I don't know - he had way more hard conversations with players based on how many we've seen leave. I wonder if he'll realize it's time for coaching changes. Hell, given how quietly Whit has handled stuff, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if we fired a couple coaches and immediately named the new coaches to replace them. But who knows?
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I don't think so. Someone did some research before, I think while they were working on hiring someone (eventually Pry) about how many new hires are actually successful. And even some that are very successful at one school doesn't guarantee they will be successful at another. I could be wrong, but I think it's like 20%, which means, theoretically, we'd have to hire 5 coaches to find one. The odds are stacked against any AD that doesn't already have crazy amounts of money.
The other challenge is, especially given the odds of finding a successful coach, is having to pay buyouts. Some SEC programs can afford to turn over a coach every couple years, but we can't. I think right now, Whit has to have a conversation with Pry (if he hasn't already) about how the other coaches are doing. I said above I think both line coaches need to go as well as linebackers.
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It pains me to type this, but I don't think there is a staff member in the athletic department at JMU who would not be an improvement over their counterpart at Virginia Tech
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I'm honestly over the JMU bullshit. Over it. They won a shit ton in FCS- congrats. Every time they have a good season, their coach bolts. They play a sunbelt schedule and always go to the wire with garder fucking webb. Fuck JMU. They have no idea what its like to recruit against Clemson, FSU, Penn State and sign good players. No fucking clue. If VT had 1/2 of of their shit together, we wouldn't ever lose to ODU or Liberty- JMU's peers. In fact Liberty is probably better. Fuck all of this JMU shit. They were a great FCS team- now they are an average sunbelt team. Who gives a fuck. VT being in its worse 8 year period since 1991 is irrelevant. Let JMU play our schedule - see if they go 12-1 every fucking year. They winning in Tally last year? fuck no. They beating Louisville? No. they barely beat UVA FFS. Im sick of it. If they had the same exact program located in ANY other state nobody on this board would mention their fucking name.
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They went 7-1 in the SunBelt last year, so I'd say above average. Would they beat FSU or Louisville? No. But they also wouldn't be in a nailbiter against ODU's 3rd string quarterback who can't complete a pass.
Their coach bolts every year and somehow they manage to hire somebody who understands the basics of coaching an actual football team on game day (have a gameplan, don't have two people wearing the same number, dont sleepwalk through the first half). They don't have their former coach's old loser buddy (John Ballein) running the program in the shadows and sabotaging coaches.
Also they won a natty in women's lax a few years ago. Something that despite the same recruiting footprint and presumably more resources, VT has never come close to doing.
is there a person in the VT athletic department that you would take over their JMU peer?
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In terms of lacrosse- I have stated on this board a million times that its hard to be worse in Olympic sports than VT is in terms of winning championships- you can't be worse than we are. So no shock JMU can commit to womens lacrosse and actually win something. Whit Babcock would have fucked that up royally too. So yes fair point. 2. They beat ODU by 3 last year. 3. No argument from me on fossil Ballein either. The fact that VT won't cut that grift or assign him to a club sport is asinine. Point is that South Alabama football is never a topic on this board. So why the fuck should JMU football be?
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I really wasn't aware that there was that much discussion about JMU football on here. I was just commenting (and stand by it) that their athletic department is far more competent than our own.
Despite the fact that they have fucking interstate running through the middle of their campus, most undergrads never go to a single football game in four years, and their stadium is 50% little league bleachers that probably have wheels underneath that they can roll away for marching band practice.
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Honestly, this is true about jmu. The student body in general doesn't care about the football games but they'll brag all effing day about it. Very annoying.
Several years ago when they we're hosting the first round of fcs playoffs, the wife was like 'hey let's take the kids and go see a playoff game since it's close (20 minutes from our house)'. Keep in mind, we don't have any allegiance to jmu (the wife went there but she doesn't claim it), we don't donate or anything of the sort. She bought the tickets, cheap. Ended up being on the second row around the 40-45 yard line. Basically about as good as you can get especially for a playoff game. Very good viewing experience but the constant purple and gold streamers raining down on you throughout the game was annoying AF.
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Im just over it. Fuck JMU- to your point, let there be a playoff game in Lane and see if you can get face value tickets. JMU was a fucking FCS school 5 mins ago. Now they are in the sunbelt with Rich Rod and other dog shit teams. App State was a darling and now they are 100% meh- nobody. JMU will never even be Boise- who were actually good in a much better MWC and had players drafted in the NFL. Now Boise also is - meh. They will be competing with the likes of JMU to go on the road in the playoffs to play at Ole Miss or Tennessee and get smoked like a drum. I could give zero absolute fucks that they beat a soft ass UNC. Zero fucks- congrats. An ACC team at noon overlooked JMU - who wants to prove how good they are. Fuck that game, Fuck JMU. If they go undefeated they will travel to Michigan and get dusted in the playoffs. Good for them. They could also easily lose 3 sunbelt games. I'm over it- they are nothing.
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I agree but we probably do call a run if Felton doesn't drop the first down pass. That's a 7 or 8 yard gain at least which then opens things up. It's not a bad first down call, but the drop puts you in a terrible bind. Perhaps a run to gain a few years makes more sense. Idk.
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Yep seeing a Rutgers program that will always take its lumps in the B1G has passed VT is incredibly demoralizing.
Starting to have doubts talent level wise, but I'd still bet that if we swap coaches with Vandy and Rutgers VT would have won both games with the exact same roster.
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Dude. Do you know how many programs are actually able to hire winning coaches? We were sheltered sooo long having Beamer we never saw it. But other programs that use to be incredibly good have gone through several coaches that didn't work out. Hopefully Pry will realize some of his staff need to go. If he does that, it would be interesting to see who he brings in. I mean, our program was in the toilet from a roster and culture perspective when Fuente left. Granted, year 3 we should be seeing some good results. The culture is definitely better, but our roster, especially both lines, haven't improved enough to make us competitive, and it's sad our linebackers aren't worlds better than what we've seen.
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VT is not special. We think we are, but we are not. Schools fire coaches ever year and somehow their programs don't disappear. Teams switch coordinators, teams switch apparel deals, teams fire AD's- EVERY year. But VT is special I suppose? nonsense. We could bungle coaching changes like Auburn or we could be Tennessee and USC and finally get it right one day and be as good as we ever have been. Or we could continue the VT is special thing and "oh you can't fire Pry" mindset and continue to lose to every P4 non con team we play.
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I'm not saying we can't fire a coach. But if you do fire one every 3 years, you wind up paying a crap ton in buyouts (and no, we wouldn't be able a decent coach without a buyout clause). And if you're paying a ton in buyouts, you sure as hell can't afford a decent coaching staff.
It's definitely better if Pry fires coaches under him that don't have buyouts and tries to turn things around. If not, I'd think you can't fire a head coach more often than every 5 years.
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If Tuten gets a few more carries on early downs we win this game. Coaching is inept and the lack of OC experience on the entire staff is an obvious laughable issue
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I don't disagree with this, but the I'm also not sure it's right. We're so damn predictable that I'm sure what the answer is, or if that would work.
That second scoring drive in the fourth was the first time we ran the Tuten toss, the first time we ran the Schlee option routes and it worked! A few that too was predictable. Need to find a balance of predictable and creative, where even if they know what's coming they can't stop it.
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I am getting bad. Year after year of promise and disappointment I am starting to check out. My wife looked online and found a lobster truck at a nearby brewery. I made the decision. Turned the game off and went to the brewery to have a nice time. I made the right call.
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Ditto, I turned it off after the fumble to start our first possession in the third quarter. Noticed we'd tied it up in the fourth, but didn't turn it back on because I had no confidence we'd pull it out. No regrets on that decision. I just can't watch the incompetence anymore.
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I know the optimists among us are going to praise the "fight" and "not giving up"....great....except 2 things:
1) Football games are 60 MIN long. Until I see a Team that plays tough, focused Football for a full 60 min, I see very little that is worthy of praise. "Fight" for 60 minutes instead of 25.
2) Rutgers could have (and probably should have) cruised to a 2 TD victory. Missed FG, 2 drives that died on the 1 yd line. The score could have been 37-7 at one point.
This Staff needs a massive restructuring because this simply is not a team that is getting better.
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Take a break. Go outside and go for a walk. We are all disappointed with the team. It's not that important and certainly not worth wishing harm to people.
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Whits demise was not hiring Bud as HC. Fight me all you want, but the dude was a ball coach that got everything out of his guys. And that comes directly from the mouth of a very close friend that put the O&M on for 2 years.
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Nope. Bud wasn't the answer either looking back. First his health he would have either died coaching or had to medically retire. Also his style wasn't that much different than Beamer's and looking back that's where our long term issues started under Beamer.
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Long term was he the answer? No, but as a gap filler, he may have been. My buddy told me straight out that he was the only coach on staff that Bud was the only guy he would have gone the hell for. This is after the 2016 Miami game, mind you. He told me, word for word, "Fuente won't pan out, Bud is the only guy that players connect with anymore". Look where we are.
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You can NOT hire a gap filler. You can't recruit for shit when players know your coach is on the way out. I think we struggled recruiting towards the end of Beamer's tenure because everyone saw it coming, and other coaches were almost definitely using that in recruiting pitches against us. You have to hire someone you consider a potential long term coach.
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Working pretty good for GT and Tennessee. Both of those programs hired bridge coaches so their athletic dept had time to organize, fundraise, and mobilize, with the goal of being a more attractive destination in 3-5 years.
But as it pertains to this conversation, I don't think it's a given that Bud would've worked out. I can easily imagine a way where it goes just as bad, if not worse, than the Fuente era. I can also imagine it going great (or at least good enough). We'll never know.
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Hanging this game on the coaches isn't right. We get a three and out, fumble the punt and give them the ball in scoring position. We get a goal line stop and get blocked into the qb for a safety. Several similar things through the game. The game was lost by players.
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Agree to disagree...Rutgers offense controlled the game on offense for over 3 quarters with their best player only getting under 70 yds rushing. Rutgers literally ran the same play multiple times and we couldn't stop it.
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It's on the coaches to develop the players. We haven't seen a ton of development, except in the secondary. marginal improvement (at best) on the offensive line, the quarterback, WR, and the linebacker room. The talent level may have upgraded but no one is improving much.
For all the mistakes our guys made, they were given many gift by Rutgers - a fumble on the 2, a missed FG, etc.
See my post about the final drive
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I haven't gotten to see the other games, but how much of the WR development, lack thereof, or otherwise, is because we don't really get to see what they're capable of because our O-line can't give Drones any time to let a passing play develop? It seems like he has to get rid of the ball pretty damn quick, and isn't necessarily the most accurate passer. I mean, his combination of running ability and passing ability I think are good, just wonder how much better we could be if we actually had a GOOD O-line?
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Drones comfort level in the pocket, passing accuracy, and ability to scan the field are much worse than I thought. It's a real deficiency for the offense. Plus, there is an inability to call audibles based on formation.
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Something isn't right, for sure. He's making bad decisions all over the field. The safety wasn't his fault, but the two turnovers were. Especially the game ending interception.
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Same as 100% of VT QBs for the last 14 years. Tyrod is the last time a VT QB who played a meaningful number of snaps has ever shown improvement year-over-year.
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That's coaching though.... I get where you're coming from, I really do. But if he can't read the D to know that's going to come open, OR the OL can't hold the DL long enough for him the blink once and turn his head across field, that's coaching.
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Pry just said in his radio post game that they need to keep feeding Tuten the ball. Isn't he the head coach? I'm really confused what's going on between him and Bowen. He did mention Tuten's injury...
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From the comments above, a lot of you feel the same as me....hopeless.
After the Drones fumble in the 3rd, I turned the TV off and went and did something constructive. I got back and watched the two scoring drives and tied the game and I didn't feel any different than when we're down 23-7 because I just felt we weren't going to win. Brent Pry's teams do not know how to close, it's not a trend, it's a fact. Brent Pry's teams are not well prepared, it's not a trend, it's a fact.
The way I feel today is probably the way many of you felt about Fuente towards the end....Brent Pry is not the man to lead VT football out of the darkness. He was a Walmart level hire, who hired a Dollar General staff. We have some exceptional football players on this team who somehow succeed in spite of this staff, but that isn't enough anymore. Brent Pry can't be our football coach next year if we want VT to mean anything again...add to that the majority of the downfall of VT football has fallen under Whit Babcock's watch cannot be ignored. If we want to survive in the current landscape of college football, we can't wait to see what happens like Frank Beamer was able to do in the late 80's-early 90's. Babcock and Pry have to go...I don't see any way around it, and that ultimately is what sucks most.
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Looking to the future, the 1 thing I want more than anything else is an offensive coordinator that does not suck. I'm not even asking for good at this point. Just competent. Look at what we have had for so many years:
Stinespring
Lefty - one of something like 5 or 10 OCs that had a worse offense than Stinespring the year before IIRC
Corny
Bowen
I mean you almost have to try to pick worse OCs than what we have had for 20 years.
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I have wondered if it's not institutional. The "good ol boys" that either hang around or are still employed by the athletic department, who make up what was once the "old guard" under Beamer, and who still have a voice at the table, have a specific vision of what Tech football is. Their vision is one in which we play hard nosed, smash mouth defense, and don't try to do anything too fancy on offense.
So, over and over, through three staffs now, at an institutional and cultural level, there has been no priority placed on competency around offensive scheme. Our best years on offense have come on the backs of generationally talented players like Vick, Tyrod, Thomas, Suggs, Wilson, etc etc etc. None of that success was due to scheme. It was due to freak athletes literally improvising on the field to put plays together.
That fancy offense stuff? That's not for us. We're a defense school.
This mindset prevails even today, in my opinion.
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Sorry but fire every single one of them too. It's not 2000 anymore, and we're losing trying to still be that school. I don't care if we adopt the Air Raid and try to outscore everyone each week, if that's what gets us winning again that's what I support.
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I honestly truly do fully believe that Pry can be a great head coach, but that won't happen unless he brings in good, proven coordinators who have been coordinators or head coaches with a distinct identity to their game.
Bowen and Marve both look like coaches who are in over their head. They are learning on the job and it shows. It was always a mistake to allow him to bring in guys who have never done that job at this level before, and it's absolutely damning that Whit allowed it after the disaster Fuente became.
Pry should get one chance to replace both of them with proven coaches. If he refuses, fire him, fire Whit, and completely clean house. The frustrating thing is, there is talent there that we should be able to win with. We shouldn't be this bad.
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Agreed 100%.....there is a reasonable amount of talent on this Roster, enough to beat Rutgers and fucking certainly enough to beat Vandy running a gimmicky G5 offense.
Pry screwed the pooch with his hires. One very established guy who was just looking for a stepping stone (Rudolph) and then two Coordinators with little to no experience beyond position coaches.
I remember that there was a prolonged wait for the O.C. announcement and then we get.....Tyler Bowen???? Marve, I assumed would learn under Pry but since being given the reigns to playcall on his own, he has been completely and totally underwhelming. Quinn is invisible...certainly hasn't raised the LB play.
Mines is really the only guy who has made his mark ---clearly as a Recruiter, waits to be seen if he can really develop this WR corps.
Overall there is enough data out there to tell us what we have and it's a very underachieving Coaching Staff
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I mean, all teams except the elite have inconsistencies. But, damn, that O-line can be so atrocious. The WRs can disappear or drop. And Drones is so up and down, it's infuriating. The defense gets negative plays, gives VT a chance to win, then gives up 60-yard right after tying the game (calling a blitz on first down was interesting...). Idk. The ACC schedule is still ahead, but so many other ACC teams are playing better football I feel like VT maybe playing UVA for a bowl berth.
I guess a silver lining is that Drones doesn't look like he'll be getting NFL or offers in the portal, so VT should have a QB next year.
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The traveling gang bang we're about to receive between Miami and Stanford has me only concerned with being able to edge UVA by a point. But home field advantage doesn't exist for us anymore so they very well make us their bitch this season.
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The team shows flashes of brilliance but mostly looks completely inept. Sometimes they don't even bother to start playing until the second half. Baffling inconsistency and a lack of preparation that comes down to shit coaching.
I've been a huge Pry apologist but the way that game unfolded was infuriating.
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In terms of the actual play on the field, we are shockingly weak in both OL play and the LBs. The OL was complete dog water for the first 3 quarters, and we are lucky their shit play didnt knock Drones out for the season today. And the LBs wouldn't know how to fill the appropriate gap on a running play if they were personally handheld to them. The amount of times they just completely sell out on fakes is stunning. They are bad, they've been bad, and they aren't getting any better
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I'm still fine with Pry as coach. But he does need to have conversations with coaches this offseason. Mainly the OL Coach. That's my big grip. I've seen Bowen call good games and the players play good games. The OL is horrible this year. I don't know where the disconnect is other than that at least.
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Bowen is a terrible OC. He has no identity, he throws shit at the wall until something sticks and then tries to make that work the rest of the way. It gives us this false sense of an evolving game plan over the course of a game, but the reality is, he has no scheme and it's really difficult to get the players ready to play when you know you're going to intentionally spin tires for about half the game.
The most damning thing I saw today was a designed run in the second quarter that was so slow to run that 2 defenders had enough time to run around the OL, and get to Drones while he was still handing off leading to a tackle at the mesh point. Even if that was a read option, it was so painfully slow that it absolutely had no hope of working.
How is the team allowed to execute plays that slowly? And by no means is it an outlier, hell, we had one of the slowest punts I've ever seen blocked against Marshall just a couple weeks ago. The team is just too slow and methodical.
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We played this bizzare, screen on every third play offense vs. Vandy. Did Zero against Marshall until we remembered Tuten was on the Roster. Now we are apparently back to running QB powers and Zone-Reads with Drones, which were nearly non-existent in weeks 1-2.
Its almost like there he has no experience calling plays at this level and he's still trying to figure out how to get the Training Wheels off---oh, yeah.
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The OL was baaaad when Pry took over and we are
(A) significantly better
(B) modestly improved
(C) not better in any objective way.
If you're going to complain that the personnel aren't good enough find new players.
Stop fucking running Parker Clements out there and expecting him not to get thrown on his ass like a ragdoll.
Duke built a competent OL from the portal..hell Vandy's OL looks passable this year. Yet, we continue to excuse our coaches because "OL are impossible to find in the Portal"---apparently only for us.
If the personnel isn't the problem, then coach them up. That hasn't happened either. Crooks has been around long enough to see some progress....and there is none.
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I'm not asking for a top-5 OL averaging 6.5 YPC....i just need an OL who doesn't fucking break their QBs ankles getting pushed back into them. You can't convince me there aren't more functional OL than Parker Clements or Bob Schick in the Portal
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This was ESPN's favorite highlight of the game, I even got a push notification about it while the game was still in progress. Being a laughingstock should be awesome for our recruiting.
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Mathematically speaking, 7-2 is obviously still possible. Based on what I've seen from us and all the other programs ahead of us before Clemson - 2-7 seems a lot closer to what we should expect to see.
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Two things I suggest that would help the team(one SEMI joking and one serious):
1) petition the NCAA to allow out games to only count the second halves of games
2) Have a team motivational meeting where the coaches take them to a field and have the players and coaches both dig a monstrous hole; throw the current playbooks in it and bury them; then tell the players that if they want to dig a hole, do it here not at the beginning of EVERY SINGLE f#%^#ing GAME !!!!
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Agreed. Glad he held onto the ball. Not an expert but Clements highlight reel, may consist of jumping jacks and Drones turning a missed block into 40 yards
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I mean that's fine and all, but Clements getting absolutely abused while trying to pass block almost ended Drones' season when he stepped on his ankle, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not overly joyful he had one good play in an otherwise miserable outing
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The way the season is going so far, I can't wait for WBB. Maybe Georgia Amoore and Lexi Blue can get us back to the final...oh wait, VT athletics, we can't have nice things.
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This team, because of the coaches is hot garbage. Rutgers is a pretty good team, but not that good. As many have said above, I can appreciate the fight, but at some point moral victories are only good for PeeWee and JV level football teams.
Our defense did a pretty good job at stopping the run, but then we give up almost 300 yards passing to an average, at best, QB. We really have not progressed as a team or program. If anything, Pry, while elevating the roster, has taken this program (at least the product on the field) backwards.
I like Pry, I want him to succeed, but he will need to clean house for me to believe in him moving forward. Burn the whole thing down.
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I'm a broken record at this point about my not understanding how Pry can't get this team hyped up before a game and they come out flat every single game so I'll change it up.
One of the worst parts about this game is seeing the halftime and postgame crew ripping our choice to keep Clements or having to listen to Herzlich repeatedly point out that our linebackers are falling for that damn triple option over and over again or having Dan fucking Orlovsky make a meme out of our safety. It's just embarrassing in so many ways.
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Most of the time those people are more expensive yes. But last cycle we went out and found these guys who weren't expensive according to the market, but we paid them a whole lot more than they were worth anyway.
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Most of the time those people are more expensive yes. But last cycle we went out and found these guys who weren't expensive according to the market, but we paid them a whole lot more than they were worth anyway.
They were paid as top 50 coordinators, and with a year they were outside the top 80. They were paid accordingly as first time P5 coordinators.
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First time coordinators do not deserve top 50 salary plain and simple, so no that's [" They were paid accordingly as first time P5 coordinators."] not true.
We did not need to give them close to 100% raises in order for them to jump to much better jobs. That was spending money just to spend it. It was not smart or necessary. Where are the other programs doubling a coach's salary to hire him for a position he has no experience in??
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First time coordinators do not deserve top 50 salary plain and simple
"Deserved" has nothing to do with it. GT hired an analyst from UGA to be a first time OC, and his starting salary was $800k, and he got a $200k after one season.
This is the reality of college football.
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Well if they were in the top 50 and that's standard but now they're in the top 80, why don't we give them another raise to be top 50? We only pay the "standard" right?
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Look, idk what to tell you - we paid for unproven potential at the coordinator sport. We paid a lot for certain position coaches, and less for others. At the start of the 2021 offseason, we had the 3rd highest staff salary in the ACC. By the beginning of 22 season, it had fallen to 6th.
The market is constantly being reset.
You can argue pry should have distributed the money differently. You can argue that bowen/marve were bad hires. But their pay/experience was pretty similar to coaches with similar experience levels.
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You're replying to the comment that is taking the liberties with logic. His Buster Faulkner example leaves out that he had ELEVEN prior years of OC experience before going to GT. Bowen had called plays for ONE GAME. Those two should not be hired at comparable salaries. Also as he pointed out Faulkner was hired a year later after a huge inflation in the average coordinator salary.
Also forgot Bowen got an extension after last year, fuck me.
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I was joking to point out the contradiction in what you're saying. I understand what your argument is for sure. But will maintain when hiring someone you only need to pay them what will make them take the job. No one was breaking down the door to hire these dudes before we did (FSU fans were actually glad to see Marve go)
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But you can fall into a trap, Cornelson out coached his pay, so do you keep an overachiever? How do you fire some one that is producing so far above his compensation? Bowen is 98th and Marve isn't top 100 this year. So anything better than 50th in offensive or defensive performance is them outcoaching their compensation. If Bowen was making 2mil then you fire him today because he's so far below the expectations. But now your in a position where for the money he might do well (not looking good so far though)
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I think we need to stop getting into the mindset of if we pay X for a coach, we get Y production in return. Corn was a bad coach that we paid below market for. If a coach is really good and paid under market, they are going to be hired away fast. Who was lining up to hire Corn? 'crickets' We can't definitively say for Pry yet, but we paid around market for a first-time P4 HC. Was anyone else making a run to hire him as an HC then or now? Again, crickets. Same with both Bowen and Marve.
Rather than you get what you pay for with coaching salaries, it's more indicative of what someone is willing to pay that sets the market. That's where the salary inflation is coming from. VT is willing to pay (then in 2021) top 3 ACC for a lot of inexperience. No one else was looking to pay that for the same, or else they would have likely had more lucrative opportunities.
Hate to sound like an economist, but there's no science to these coaching hires and salary. It's simply supply and demand. People will overpay for bad coaches (and even good coaches), and good coaches that are underpaid will be hired away swiftly unless you pony up to retain them. Coaches and agents know their clients' worth.
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I agree there is no rhyme or reason to coaching pay, see Kevin Steele. But my point was more there were probably a lot of people pissed we paid Fuente double Frank. So if we could win .600 of games (Fuente was one game away from that record) with the lowest paid OC in football, then why change? If we paid Corn more he wouldn't get better. We could go over pay on some one just as bad. but no one wants tobkeep over paid employees around. It forces the issue.
We were never committed to top 3 pay. Our assistant pool is now smaller than it was when Pry was hired. We are just going to cheap out on coaches and never dangle 2mil at an Odom type DC. Joe Rudolph was the biggest coaching hire VT has ever made fir an assistant. Number is I don't know whom, Shane Beamer? We always have to talk or selves into hires instead of actually perming the check book and getting a big name but that's not VTs culture. We hire cheap and hope it works out.
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I'm not even sure that's fully the case. Yeah if you want to chase the hottest names in the business. You can identify good coaches at lower levels, but then you have to pay to retain them which is where the salary inflation happens.
But I think even some of the top paid coaches aren't necessarily the best. If we hired JMUs entire staff, who are currently making a fraction of what our staff pool is, I think we would be much better coached than we are now. They just blew the doors off UNC and look like the best program in VA by a mile.
In the age of NIL I'm also starting to think "recruiting" is less important. VT as a program is going to recruit generally right around the level it always has. Same with Bama and OSU, they will always recruit well regardless of who the coach is. Just don't burn bridges and alienate your pipeline like Fu. I say find the absolute best football coaches you can, sprinkle in a few key recruiters on your staff with high school connections, and make sure you maintain inroads to your program's top recruiting areas. Use NIL strategically for transfers and retention. But make sure your coaches can coach first and foremost and have a track record of success there. Pry could have been the CEO type coach but he didn't hire many good coaches around him, which will be his downfall. Starting to think his success at PSU was talent more than Xs and Os.
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The good ... um we only lost by 3 to a coach making $1.5 mil more than ours?
We are two plays away from being undefeated. We keep getting in our own way and that has to be on coaching. I hope they give Pry time to make changes (and that he makes them), but we need an AD that can raise capital so we can afford P4 coaches.
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1. Schiano outcoached Pry
2. Bowen not running the ball that last possession is unbelievable
3. The 1st down blitz after we tied the game was a bad coaching decision
4. The defense did a great job most of the game, we still give up a bunch of big plays (we've seen this before). I think that is due to being outcoached in certain situations.
5. Vanderbilt just took #7 Missouri to 2 OTs
We are a middle of the road P4 team who is a couple plays from 4-0, our coaching is not great, Defense is getting better, Offense has no identity and seems to be trying "stuff".
Bowen is the problem. Pry is a defensive guy, he needs confidence in his OC so he doesn't have to worry there. He should of told Bowen, on that last possession to run the ball. Not tell him how, but tell him to run it, that's what a head coach should do. Pry needs a competent OC so he can focus on being an HC and learn to not get outcoached.
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If Felton doesn't drop one right in the bread basket nobody is complaining about the last drive. We had less than 2 minutes and started on the 25. What does a first down run for 5 yards accomplish other than burning a timeout prematurely? If we run it and they stop it on first down, we're out a timeout and not a yard closer to field goal range.
Now, if he catches that ball, then sure, hurry up and run it on 2nd and 2 from the 33 yard line.
Bowen deserves some grief, but that last drive wasn't on him.
Bigger picture: I wonder if having Bowen in the QB room hasn't been detrimental after all. Kyron seems to have really regressed.
Even my non football colleague from work commented on how he couldn't hit open receivers on pitch and catch or long passes and how he stared down his first read much more than Rutgers QB.
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You can run a ball and be in hurry up and run another play in about 12 seconds without burning a timeout. We were running all over them in the fourth quarter. You can also run a ball out of bounds and stop the clock. Can't completely abandon the run there, especially if you don't swap personnel under hurry up and don't give rutgers a chance to swap.
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Generally this is true. But when have you seen this VT offense do anything at all fast? Even when Bowen's crew is in "hurry up" they take forever because something is still off with the communication. It's a trainwreck no matter how you cut it.
Again, I like the philosophy, generally speaking, but VT simply doesn't have the luxury of leaning on something like that at the end of the game.
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i am beyond tired of this shit. i can smooth talk people at least as good as pry, fucking square away the coaching jfc. adjust. schiano, contrary to reports, is a super mid coach.
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At this point just give me a team where I'm not afraid to play Rutgers, BC, ect because I know our players aren't physical or mean enough to line up across from teams that have any physicality.
I'm tired of this finesse soft football. Give me 5-6 nasty OL a Tuten and a defense no one wants to line up against.
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And I'm old enough to have been at all the home games during Beamer's 2-8-1 season. And him being told to fire his assistants, and him doing it with the results we all enjoyed.
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I am old enough to remember out of conference losses to Alabama and even then we played better. Rutgers, really MFin Rutgers???
I can remember when this was a guaranteed win. We have fallen so far from those days. I don't have any answers but sure as hell have a lot of questions.
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Maybe, and probably, I have had too many beverages to lessen this loss, but I am not sure we can be mad enough at where we find ourselves as a program.
Possibly tomorrow I will regret this post but shit, MFin shit, I believe I could assemble a staff better suited to the challenges ahead than we currently have.
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Hang in there my man. I don't know if you or I could come up with a better staff or not. Probably not. But as I pointed out above, you would have to try to come up with a worse offensive coordinator staffing than what we have had over the past 20 years.
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Kids want top dollar for awful performances. They are in for a rude awakening in the real world. Money is not as good, and the work is real and twice as hard. Also, there are no free meals, room & board, medical, or clothing. You pay for all of that. Any exercise they get will be in their spare time and if it is at a gym they will most likely have to pay for that also unless it is on a military base or in their house. NIL and college athlete perks have kids thinking money grows on trees.
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Didn't have a chance to watch today but caught some highlights and followed here and there. Not surprised at the result - I knew this was going to be a loss. Lots of frustration at this point among the fan base. It sucks, but this is where we are.
IMHO, the rot starts at the very top. Whit has had two chances now and has overseen the complete decline and collapse of VT football over the past ten years. He does not know how to run a P4 program. And we diverted money from basketball for this football team which is embarrassing. Football and both basketball teams are bad and facing rebuilds. I'm sorry but dude's got to go. He's had enough chances here.
And I feel sorry for the high level donors who put all this NIL war chest together to retain this roster. I think the coaches are a huge part of the problem, but man...Drones was so incredibly overhyped and overrated. He's just not the QB I think many of us thought he was. Offensive coaching and OL in particular do him no favors, but he's slow in his reads and just can't see the field. We way overpaid for returning this roster.
Changes should be coming, and I think with the overall state of the AD being so down right now in the biggest sports, it starts at the top. Whit and Ballein both need to go, and the new AD gets to decide if Pry can right the ship/impose some staff changes. If he can't do that, he will be gone after next year too. Just unacceptable.
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Insult to injury we still have the dumbass White Effect going on. Not only did we lose but we lost looking bad in a poor replica of another team's signature home game style. We're losers and posers.
End the stupidity. Make our own way with the EnterNight game with Black unis and black clad stadium.
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looked it up and the home team can wear white if agreed upon before the season in writing. So it seems our Athletic Dept sucks again at long term planning.
2 The visiting team shall wear white jerseys; however, the home team
may wear white jerseys if the teams have agreed in writing before the
season
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There was a guy in front of me in Lane wearing. White T-shirt that said "White is not a team color". My kids couldn't understand why I found that funny,but he nailed it.
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Really, really difficult to care about this program when the only thing they do consistently is lose games like this one. The OL being terrible is not a surprise. Undisciplined and soft play from the LBs is not a surprise either. They are what they are at this point.
What is kind of surprising to me is Drones. He has not shown any sign of growth whatsoever, in fact he seems like he's regressing, and it's hard to know how much to lay on him when he is getting such incompetent coaching and blocking. I feel like it's probably a little of column A, little of column B situation. And it's impacting everything else. I kind of thought our skill position guys (Tuten aside) would be showing more as well, but what good are they if the QB can't get them the ball, or even see them when they're open?
I just expected so, so much more from this team after the way they finished up last year.
It seems that firing Fuente was not enough to assuage the deep institutional rot in the Merryman Center. I've kind of been a Whit apologist up to now, but I think that has changed. I know it's not all on him, God knows the ACC has failed us too. But it doesn't really matter what else he's done when he lets the cash cow waste away year on year. He gotta go. Every single complacent, content with mediocrity, stubborn voice in that athletic department that would rather fail their way than succeed someone else's can go right along with him. We should never, ever be losing to Rutgers, and now it's happened in consecutive years.
I love Pry, I really do think he "gets it" and knows how to sell VT. But it's like Mark Gottfried at NC State a few years back. If you have the recruits but not the W's, you'll be gone too, no matter what. And that may be the place we have found ourselves in.
As for why I still care this much, I have no idea. Old habits die hard. At least I know I'm not alone. God, this comment sounds like so many I've made after losses in past years....
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I'll try to write up more in the week, but I went ahead and pulled the Net EPA (offense and defense only, no special teams) for the regular season games of Brent Pry era, and it's not great.
TL:DR, we don't play complete games. Factoring in garbage time, we've only defeated teams in all four quarters three times: BC in 2022 and 2023, and UVA in 2023. We are a poorly coached team that runs up the score on bad opponents, loses winnable games, and can't finish against average teams.
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Pry will get 2 more years unfortunately. We will be further into the abyss as a program- long from being relevant, back to the days of hoping we beat UVA and that's a good season. I've accepted it. We could miss a bowl this year because we have 36 players that wear the same numbers on a 65 man dress squad. I still see small slow players out there across 2 coaching regimes. We need a major influx of better talent- across the board. Can Whit make a third time a charm and find a Chris Kleiman or Josh Heupel? Or are we stuck in Dave Dorean territory now with a good season now and then? We shall see. In the meantime lower your expectations drastically.
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This program is losing me as a fan. I'm checking out. I went to Iron Blossom music festival in Richmond this weekend and only thought about the game when my buddy told me the score. It was such a better use of my time to see live music and have fun with my girlfriend and friends. There were little pieces of VT gear here and there amongst the crowd, but nothing like how it used to be years ago in Richmond, where you saw VT gear every time. I can't be the only one losing interest.
I grew up a diehard Redskins fan and only really saw them win as a 5 year old during the 91 season, which doesn't even count. I broke up with the Skins in my late 20s and it was so satisfying to just not care anymore. I fell in love with VT through college 03-07 and have been diehard fan since. But I'm checking out. I just don't care as much any more and there really isn't a reason to. The Hokies are turning into the Redskins for me and its fucking sad. The entire Gameday experience feels like a shell of itself. The team is meh at best. I always made fun of UVA fans for not caring and here I am, just not caring. I went to Nashville and that will likely be the only game I go to this season. It was fun to see old college friends and frankly, that's really the only reason to go to games any more. Friends are going to the Clemson game but I know I can see those friends outside of BBurg and I can donate my time to a fishing tournament benefitting veterans. The game is an absolute afterthought. I'm just beaten down by the mediocre culture that surrounds the football team for the last decade.
I like Pry a lot but he has got to make changes. I will take the word of the old players in the podcast demanding change in the coaching staff. Maybe he can turn it around and gain some fans, like me, back. But my interest is dwindling at best. There's better things to do with my time. I sure as hell won't give money to fund another swing pass for a two yard loss.
I've said it several times now and will say it again... this fan base deserves better.
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It's only a proxy, but I've had more people cancel their memberships here over the last 8 weeks, by an order of magnitude, than at any other time of the site's existence.
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There are always a few people who cancel before the season, but this year was higher than normal. Though the lion's share began during the Vanderbilt game. I legit had 3 people cancel during halftime and it's been a consistent stream since then.
I wonder what TKP will look like when it's SEO parked, 😂.
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I'm definitely way less invested than I ever used to be. Maybe part of it is age and the added responsibility of having a child. Our schedules look different these days than when I was in college, or relatively fresh out of college. But the football product has just been absolutely horrible for the last decade. And showing no signs of improving. My wife laments that people don't have patience anymore (myself included) but it's more and more normal to see coaches come into impoverished football programs and get them turned around and playing pretty good football within 3 years. Often less. So when we're stumbling out of the gate as poorly as we have this year it's hard to take these coaches seriously and really have patience with them. We're basically the same team we were in 2022. It's not good. Unless we magically turn it around and win out in the ACC I don't see how these coaches can ever prove that they belong. I just don't see that happening. I'm not even sure I'm going to bother watching the Miami game. I can think of dozens of more enjoyable ways to spend my Friday evening than watching my Hokies get absolutely pummeled by a team that sucked just 2 years ago.
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I was super fired up for this season. Most excited ive been in a while. And then we have 2 number zero's on the field at the most critical moment against Vandy. Same old fucking shit- kinda lowers your enthusiasm. Sloppy program, winnable game with 75% VT fans in attendance- egg laid.
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Well to be fair, what most fans don't see and Pry won't say is that when Bowen calls a combo route against 1/4's coverage - perfect for down and distance- but St. Germaine fucking doesn't get deep enough for the pick concept and Drones doesn't see the second read... we punt. He's not going to kill St. Germaine and Drones in a presser. Now the alternative is "play calling" that is so vanilla and obvious to the fan, but get's blown up because the defenses watch film to. On your couch- 3rd and 8, let's throw it deep, duh... and when we run an RPO concept instead that would have easily gotten a first down if Malichai Thomas fucking blocked someone... well. That's the problem.
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We've said this before with previous coaches: Play-calling is just half the battle. Good coaches get their players prepared to play smart, disciplined football. Our coaches might be drawing up the perfect plays but they can't get their players to execute those plays to save their lives. Are the players screwing up plays that should work on paper? Yeah, maybe. When players mess up a one-off play you chalk it up to inexperience, fatigue, youth, whatever. When it happens over and over and over with multiple players, you have to look at the coaching. There is an obvious disconnect there and the root cause is bad coaching.
I don't care if the play-calling is good. The players are horrendously inconsistent and they look like they just lack motivation or energy. That's still a coaching issue. You might have the perfect playbook, but if you can't get the players to execute the plays with a certain amount of consistency, your awesome plays are completely useless. That was the issue with Loeffler. His offense, particularly his passing structure, was lightyears better than anything we had under Stinespring. But he couldn't get the players to execute it effectively and we faltered. Often.
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Agreed 100%- and that comes down to the simple fact (we can cherry pick all day) but overall 4 and 5 star players "execute" better than 2 star players and lower rated transfers. At this moment VT has several issues compounding themselves. Bowen is not elite, our linebackers aren't good enough, our DL is small and thin in terms of capable bodies, and Drones is not being put in a position to actually use the best room on the team- WR. It's a coaching and talent problem- not one or the other at this moment with VT. Take FSU- they have 100% a coaching problem. They have 4 and 5 stars, NFL draft picks all over the field. Norvell can't get them to execute any longer. Miami finally finds a coach and good QB and they are blowing people out with their 4 and 5 stars. Saban had both- great coaches and great players. VT has neither at this moment.
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yeah, totally agree. I'm not suggesting that we don't have a talent problem - just that the coaching problem exacerbates the talent problem. Good coaching can mask talent deficits and get teams with mediocre talent to be competitive with more talented teams; even getting lucky to win against really talented teams every once in a while. Bad coaches can squander talent (FSU, as you mentioned). Bad coaches make mediocre talent look dreadful (VT).
We have a talent problem. It's not as bad as it was under Fuente but it's not good. It is being amplified by the coaching problem. Good coaches, good talent evaluators, good recruiters, often are the same folks. We just don't have them.
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Been that way for a decade. Beamer's successors were supposed to improve upon the standard but have consistently failed to even live up to it. One common denominator is Whit Babcock, good ole boy.
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Yep- Dabo, Mack and Franklin shit talking every aspect of our program- constants. VT playing on ESPN and not playing well- constant. Both of those things have a huge impact on landing talent.
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Right, but Dabo and Franklin can talk shit about OSU and Bama or USCe and it doesn't seem to work. It works with us as we spin wheels in recruiting the past 10 years.
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End of the day I just hope they pick one thing to focus on and actually find real success. Currently seems like they want to do everything and are doing everything poorly with occasional spurts of moderate success that gets used to rationalize the status quo
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Lights out recruiter, but its easy to do so when you're throwing around Phil Knight's $$$$$$$$$$ at Oregon (they hated him there btw), and can always live off of the undisputed preseason national champion hype at scum. This is why the man keeps failing up.
Will recruiting be enough in Miami? Maybe, but when this year's first L comes (I'd absolutely love it to be us, but I hold no illusions that this game will be close)., they will all fall like a string of pearls. Again.
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Of course.. you are 100% correct. And when you hear cliches like "mind is tying up his feet" "needs to play faster" " wish he had that throw back" - it's execution. Now our issue at VT is like I said earlier- if Bowen called plays that this current group of OL, the way Drones is playing, WR's banged up, TE's not ACC level- he can call those "executable" plays all day long, they are going to get stuffed for minimal gain. It's a double edged sword. Why did Jay Gruden literally hate RG3? because he couldn't read a defense or go to a second read. He came from Art Briles 1 read offense. So Gruden was forced to call bullshit 1 read tree plays- which in the NFL he knew wouldn't work. Gruden wanted to call real plays, RG3 couldn't execute them- which is why he was out of the NFL at age 28.
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Being at the Rutgers game this weekend really made me come to the conclusion that drones is in his head this year too. Not sure it's always the play, saw drones missing wide open receivers deep and intermediate all day just refusing to throw the ball with any type of anticipation and instead waiting until the receiver was covered or dumping off. From the non tv view and a more open periphery my man is just not seeing the field or way down in confidence and scared to make the throws, step into his front foot, or keep his eyes down field. According to the stats I've seen so far his average time to throw is actually up in comparison to last year despite how bad our o line gets beat. Seems like a guy scared to trust his protection so his eyes drift and a guy too scared to make the throw when it is open.
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You are spot on. Drones looks like a freshman out there. It's really bad. It's almost odd that more people aren't calling it out. A guy beside me in the stands certainly was, LOL.
I have to wonder how much longer he can play this poorly before folks start clamoring for Pop.
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I honestly don't know how credible this person is, but I still think the thought is valid. I have been thinking for awhile that JMU has the best team in the state of VA. We have no excuses
VT can't use their model and be successful in a P4 league. Can't. Imagine what our team would look like with even more 2 star recruits? Imagine if whenever we won 8 games, our coach leaves- for ECU or similar program? They recruit to their league and pick off a soft ass team like UNC. VT needs to have a roster of high 3 and 4 star guys to compete in the ACC. We don't sneak up on Mack Brown- its a league game, he knows us. It's not a valid comparison. IF VT could win with 2 star recruits, Fuente would have done so.
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I think that's a fair response. But it's still maddening to watch us sitting with losses to powerhouses Vandy and Rutgers and watch JMU lay a 70 burger on UNC on top of the continued success they've had through several coaching changes.
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Oh it's 100% maddening looking at their latest class with a grand total of 1 3 star player in it. 15 2 stars, 1 zero star, 1 3 star player. Say what you want, VT can't win that way. JMU won big at the FCS level- thus they attract great coaches from that level and G5, and transfers have seen them on TV in the FCS playoffs, etc. Now they are in the sunbelt and their recruiting profile isn't much different. If we signed their classes, this board would demand everyone be fired and burn it down. They kicked UNCs ass for sure- so have we many times in ACC play. That doesn't mean that VT can find a G5 unkown coach, recruit 2 star players, and beat Clemson 70-52. Never happen. So why talk about it?
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Have we opined on this trash yet? Beamer was trying to clone Alabama for 30 years? The fuck? Chadwell is the man to lead VT back to glory? VT has a vision now to be Penn State light? What a piece of total shit and lies this is...
Which is funny we went that route because they were always loaded with talent but always underachieved, in what was a very weak Big Ten outside the big 2 (and occasionally Michigan State). Never had a good offense, and they had some solid defenses, but the Big Ten is so bad at offense that the defenses are always inflated.
It's not surprising it's going so bad here with the Penn State B staff at a place with much less talent.
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Idk, some of it was definitely a reach (like the Bama comparison), but some of it I think was pretty astute. Tennessee ridding themselves of rot in their AD is certainly something I think we could learn from, and the point about how both Bama and Nebraska tried and failed to recreate success post-legend coaches by trying to hold on to the old ways and recreate the magic is particularly relevant to us I think.
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It was total trash amateur hour revisionist garbage. But sure- Whit is a clown- said it many times. But I have been a season ticket holder 25 years. I have met Beamer, Fuente, Foster, Wiles others and chatted with them. I have toured the facilities, been to countless away and bowl games etc. Never once- not once did you get the impression , idea, evidence, anything related to Bear Bryant. Never. That was a made up lie. A lie period. Made up. Beamer crafted his own identity on special teams. Bryant wasn't known for that. Mike Shula wasn't known for that. Beamer's closest friends and confidants in the business were Bobby Ross, Ralph Friedgen, Joe Paterno- none with any Bama ties. I won't mention the other trash- JMU and Liberty dick riding nonsense. If we signed a class of 15 2 stars and 1 3 star ala the great JMU, this board would explode like it never has. VT is absolute shit right now trying to recover from the Fuente disaster, and dealing with NIL, revenue to compete issues that JMU and liberty fucking dream of. Only a lazy asshole with an axe to grind makes the comparison. JMU was a great FCS team- although the last 10 years you could argue underachieved at that level for what they were- and liberty is liberty- they will hire shady coaches, pay players and their parents with unlimited church money and win games against ODU. Fucking great. Throw a parade. They will never be even BYU's level. VT until recently was a better program for 25 years than BYU. So the lazy dick riding of Liberty and JMU tells you the article is trash. JMU beat Garder Webb by a touchdown a couple weeks ago. Crown them and they are "better" than VT. fucking joke.
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.. now I'm just bummed. And for the first time, maybe ever, I don't even feel like we l have a chance against Miami. I feel like... Friday is going to be the same stuff we've been seeing for years now. Frustrating, head-scratching stuff. I'm kinda tapped out, I guess. 4 games in and my excitement is gone.
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Same. The worst part is that we haven't even played a conference game yet and already a lot of us have completely lost whatever excitement might have existed in August. This team has ripped the joy out of the fans in less than 5 weeks. It's kind of impressive how down and out we are when, technically, we still have everything to play for. Weird.
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It's not weird though - we have eyes. We all know what's going to happen on Friday. This is a staff and team that has done nothing to prove they can win.
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Yeah that's my point. It's weird to think that we still have everything to play for. It certainly doesn't feel that way. That's how bad our team is. We have looked so terrible that we know we're cooked. Think back to 2010. We started the season 2-2 with a really bad loss to JMU (arguably a worse loss than either of our losses this year) and then rifled off 10 straight wins to finish the regular season ranked and spanked Fsu in the ACC championship game. Despite the fact 2010 was probably a worse start than this year we know this team has no freaking chance at winning out. That's impressive.
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The JMU loss was an absolute shock at the time. Fast forward to today and we're perennially worried about losing to the ODUs and Marshalls of the world. Unthinkable 15 years ago. It's just sad, man.
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Fact- we were a laughingstock at the time. People saying we let the Michigan/App State game off the hook, etc. embarrassing. Now JMU might be a 2 point favorite over VT this week if we played.
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Comments
This team is bad. Babcock needs to go.
It's time.
I never bought into the pre season ACC champion hype. Offense is not good at all.
I had my reservations as well. Returning a lot of production is good, but returning weak O and D lines and linebackers isn't necessarily a good thing. I think if our lines and linebackers were better, the run and pass game would be SIGNIFICANTLY better and our secondary isn't too shabby either.
Yep. You cannot win without good OL and DL play. At least when we had Wiles we could count on good to above average defensive lines.
Amazingly, APR is leading the country in sacks.
How does he have more than Clements?! /s
Well played, my friend.
I needed this.
Well our defense is on the field for two thirds of the game so many more opportunities....
My first response when I read this post was that it was a step too far and an overly emotional post. However as I have sat here digesting this latest embarrassment I am inclined to agree with Joe. I thought Whit was a good hire, and maybe he still is, but he has used up all the goodwill he initially had. He will have to earn his worth going forward. He is paid well to administer a top athletic program (which at VT has to have football as the absolute focus) and at this point the results simply are not there. I repeat, the results are simply not there.
I agree some changes need to be made, but if you're keeping Pry, I don't follow on how it's 100% on Babcock.
Seems like if you're keeping Pry, he's the guy who has to make some hard choices.
I'm thinking you actually pay an Offensive Line coach who is good. Maybe even let HIM have an assistant of his choosing.
Seems to me we're going to have to pay someone.
The Defense looks like it might be making progress, even if not as quickly as we want.
Babcock inherited a top 25 football program and over the course of his tenure it regressed into a bottom feeder. Any changes that are otherwise made are superficial.
Did he?
Seems to me he inherited a football program that was already declining, even if things looked OK on the surface.
What was Whit going to do? Fire Beamer? That would have ended his tenure pretty quickly. Beamer had earned the right to retire on his own terms. He was always going to be a hard act to follow.
Fuente was a bust, for sure, and Whit held on to him for too long. Fuente managed to squeeze a couple of good seasons from the team as the talent was dissipating. Felt good at the time, but we later figured out it was unsustainable. He could recruit, but he couldn't hold on to the players. He left the shelves very, very bare.
Pry has the right idea, and Whit is letting him do his job. He deserved the opportunity to see if he could do it his own way. Seems to me he'd hire coordinators with more P5 experience if he had the budget.
Results indicate some big changes this year. Probably going to have to break out the check book. Not sure how firing Whit would change any of that right now, unless you just fired everyone and started over.
Who manages that budget?
I mean, just playing devils advocate, but income is limited. Either we have to decide to stop competing somewhere else (Olympic sport X), or we have to fundraise better.
People were pretty upset about men's basketball roster turnover, losing Kenny Brookes, etc. Can't have it both ways.
So we need to fundraise more. But people are also upset about that.
Like I said elsewhere, tough to know if whit is failing to bring in money, or if we're tapping out alumni and business partnerships.
But again, these are all decisions by the athletic director and the outcomes speak for themselves.
Board of visitors, President Sands then Whit. The questions have become after decades of being behind our "peers" is any AD going to be able to get the money needed to truly first turn things around and bring us up to par then keep the money going to keep us there. Despite some on here who don't want to talk about money or facilities those are real issues in Blacksburg. Our HC is making somewhere in the 35-45th pay range, our two main sports lack many of the fan amenities that our peers have started introducing years ago, our Olympic sports are now suffering from some of same issues and will start to fall behind quickly. Does the administration as whole in Blacksburg have the vision and ability to pay the bills, provide the infrastructure and land that is going to be needed to keep up?
The flat answer is "No." VT is an institution/program where the success is going to have to come before the money. Unfortunately we seem hellbent on, or cursed by, making complete fools of ourselves whenever things start to look like they are on the upswing. And that, as we all know, was a problem back even in the Beamer years.
The school and athletic department had the chances from '99-'10 and we barely raised ticket prices, didn't increase Hokie Club minimums, didn't require minimum donations for season tickets except for best seats, our facilities looked like late 80's early 90's high end high school programs. Some of that has been addressed, the new nutrition areas, new weight rooms, new team meeting rooms, but now we are where other teams were at 5-10 years ago.
Was clearly an opportunity missed.
I didn't even know about the Hokie Club until 2010 I think, was living in Ohio, had not once heard of it growing up in VA, been to games in Blacksburg seen Tech play in bowl games and early season neutral site games. No advertising.
Like... The sandwich?
Jim Weaver was excellent at managing a small athletic program. When it became bigger he resisted doing the things needed to sustain growth. We small timed ourselves for years and when the world shifted again in the 2010 time frame we were woefully out of date.
As a 2000 grad I still marvel at our complete lack of ability to capitalize on the success of 1999. Missed opportunities abound that reverberate today.
This is the answer right here. Those missed opportunities back then have made Virginia Tech just another P5 bottom feeder. You're seeing it now and will continue to see it as NCAA football turns into a professional feeder league for the NFL while VT gets left in the dust. All because one guy wanted to keep the books in the black while actively trying to not make or receive more money from the "paying customers."
I'm in my late 40's now, so I saw VT almost reach the summit as a student and was certain at the time that we would be able to build on that and reach the top sometime "Soon" (TM). But as I get into my "get off my lawn" years I have more perspective. The state of CFB now is not going to be kind to small programs, and VT is first and biggest in my heart, but we aren't big time. The missed opportunities of the 2000s and 2010s are unrecoverable now. There is a massive revenue gap that is only going to get larger. Recent developments in both the transfer portal and in player compensation are going to uncap a talent war that we are not equipped to win long term.
VT might have a top 30 NIL program but I suspect the rankings are non-linear and are only going to get more exponentially differentiated. Our conference is the 3rd best but still lags behind the top 2 by a factor of 2x or more in revenue for example.
Those agitating for VT to get better now so that we can get a seat in the next realignment wave have missed what has happened. The NCAA is out there talking about allowing schools to directly compensate players via trusts. No more NIL fig leaf. Ohio State, Texas, Georgia, etc will have a player payroll that will dwarf our entire athletics budget. There's not enough upside in the Big-12 or a renegotiated ACC that can cover that gap. Disney is losing its ass on all fronts. They aren't going to be able to sustain spending even more. You can see the future shaping up now with all the helmet games that are being promoted on each session of College Game Day. Brand on Brand. Eyeballs. NFL Jr.
What's coming next in my mind is Contraction. The legacy P2 conferences can't kick out charter members like Indiana and Northwestern and Vanderbilt. But the Tiffany brands like Michigan, Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, et al can opt to leave those leagues and form what will be a new competitive division of "college" sports. That's what's coming. The PAC-12 was destroyed in service of this as Fox and ESPN fought over the best pieces for their respective captive broadcast markets.
There will be a new Division 0 of CFB with maybe 20 or so teams that can support a professional-scale level of competition. Virginia Tech won't be part of that. South Carolina won't be part of that. Indiana won't be part of that. On and on. The entire world is shifting and it was too late to do anything about it maybe as far back as 15 years ago.
And I'm 100% fine w/ that, as long as that's how it turns out. I'd love to be in a league w/ UNC, NCSU, GT, UVa, etc... Let me off the money/CFP railroad. I don't care about pro sports. I won't care about pro sports wearing a college costume either.
There's so much more money in the sport now than in the 1990s and I don't think the product has improved at all.
Scenario 1- Whit Babcock's best in class research and super secret poaching of the great Justin Fuente and keeping Bud Foster was a genius move ahead of his peers, it just didn't work because we let other athletes come into Merryman to use the facility as opposed to "football only" and the training table only had pork bacon. Give Pry a huge building only used by the football team and vegan options, and we are back, baby. (doesn't appear to be working, but give it 6-7 years) Scenario 2- Whit Babcock is a fucking clown that has never built a program that won a natty- in any sport (Stanford wins them every year, UVA wins them regularly) and he hired an overrated prickly G5 coach who made his reputation taking Memphis from absolute shit to a win over BYU in the Bahamas bowl and let him keep his G5 staff that never recruited in the P5, and behind that he hired a guy that was never a head coach anywhere and 2 coordinators not on anyone's radar because Pry understood Blacksburg and the lunch pail. We are going back to 1995, even getting the Vick uniforms and we are going to win with the lunch pail mentality again. That -could- work? sure? but that would require a defensive line that can set an edge and not get blown off the ball and linebackers like Del Rio, Newsome, Tate, Semones, Adibi, Hall, Edmunds, hell even Bruce Taylor. So here we sit with shitty leadership from the AD and no lunch pail players to carry the lunch pail. I think SI once printed "dark days in Blacksburg"
This might be your best comment on this board.
There's another issue that I have harped on before, and that is cheapness (is that a word?) of a large portion of the Virginia Tech community. I've been around the university for a very long time and have heard a lot of people pitching a fit about how much money gets "wasted" on football. Others whining about donating even $25 a year to the Hokie Club because "they have taken enough of my money for my undergrad tuition" or "they don't pay men enough for my university job, so they can pound sand if they want me to donate." Others saying "I'll start donating when they get back to the MNC". I'd be willing to be, though, a large portion of the people here on TKP are not in that camp, but to truly keep up in the arms race of college football, we need absolutely everyone buying in and supporting in every way they can.
All of that has been an issue for a very long time, and compounded with your points that the administration didn't take more drastic steps to capitalize (for the long-term benefit of the program) on that massive success...VT football has essentially tripped on its own shoelaces, and we have really no idea on how to get back up. And it really, really sucks given how we can still sell out home games before the season starts, against opponents that aren't even ranked!
I don't disagree, but Sands, by all accounts, has done an incredible job on the academic side.
Who is in charge of fundraising?
My overall point is this is a problem larger than Pry, and Whit is the common denominator.
They spent over 1 million dollars to design and implement an academic logo. Instead of doing the smart thing that big name brands have done and combine the academic and athletic logo because brand recognition is athletic for most people.
Miami, Oklahoma, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington merges theirs all before 2017, what does Sands and Co do spend over a million (that was estimate in 2018) to separate the two, why?
Plus, the result wasn't nearly so good as the logo we already had.
Come on now... the new "academic" logo has an open line between the v and t- which means our campus is "inclusive" it was a huge milestone. lol
This will never not upset me. It's not even about the money spent. It's about the stupidity of it all.
It would be like buying a website that most of the world either uses or knows the name of, having the name of the actions you do on that website be worldwide known word and then changing the name of the website for some reason! Then being shocked when its value goes down.
Hmmm, sounds like you've got a particular example in mind.. 🤪
Edit: Nvm, just repeating comments from above.
Echoing fireman - I'm doubtful that whit has complete control over the direction of the athletic dept.
I'm convinced that he wanted to fire Fuente in 2020 and he got overruled. No sources. Just something I'm convinced of.
Frank Beamer really sucked at the end there- making bowls, putting people in the NFL, beating UVA, being respectable on the field. Those days of VT football really sucked I tell ya.
JMU, Kansas, ECU, Wake, Duke, Pitt all losses some of them multiple times in his last 6 seasons. All with subpar recruiting, poor fan buyin and no facilities plans long term. Again this attitude that because Frank did it in '99 with less everyone should be happy to do it is stupids and shortsighted and missed what was happening around us for decades.
Kansas was a top 10 team when we played them. JMU was 5 years before he retired, and we won the fucking ACC that year- Beamer really sucked in 2010. Yes, he lost to a couple bad ECU teams. But unlike Fuente - who had many more resources, he never missed a bowl his last 20 plus years and he last lost to UVA 12 years before he retired. There is no comparison. Beamer also magically was able to recruit NFL draft picks his last several years.
The argument is that evidence shows Whit is not capable of putting VT in a position to win, in (at least) one of the three ways:
IMO It's tough to diagnose the specific issue given that we can't see his every decision, like we can a football coach on game day. But I get it - we're going on a decade of mediocrity.
But by God, we got a kick ass baseball stadium! Because Whit loves him some baseball.
Ehh, we got a series of grass platforms and a press box to bring ourselves up to the ACC standard. There is nothing special about English Field
The sentiment was very tongue in cheek. Needed the sarcasm font there.
Maybe- Coastal Carolina is a better baseball program, UVA rolls out of bed with anybody on their roster and is in the CWS, we are below the mid ACC level etc. Babcock sucks- at everything.
Is that not what the Joe Rudolph hire was? You had guys in the league now e.g. Silas Dzansi who regressed.
Once again watch Dwight Vick's podcast, they specifically talk about the OL
An Offensive Line coach who only stays one year is a waste of money.
Maybe for that role, you need to backload most of the pay to ensure they stay at least 3 - 5 years
Yeah, I think I'm hopping on board this train too. Whit ain't it.
There's also a laundry list of Whit self-owns at this point: Pete Morris, "weights weigh the same", his Cornelsen empathy presser, etc.
My only fear is that those weren't 'whit decisions' as much as him falling on a sword after being handcuffed.(obvi pete morris does apply here, but the lack of spending in general, and the justifications that came with it)
I do agree with you that Whit likely got overruled from Sands on replacing Fuente in 2020. Enough smoke there to put two and two together. But I don't think Whit is secretly a great AD and just being handcuffed. I frankly think Sands is very hands off with athletics and defers a ton to Whit in that regard. Whit just isn't a good P4 AD and it's really starting to show. He doesn't know how to run a successful football program, and he has made two bad hires (not looking good for Pry right now) and won't get to make a third. Plus both basketball programs are now either circling the drain (men's) or under complete rebuild (women's).
I think Whit is behind the lack of spending. The weights weigh the same comment, not giving Fu more resources, etc. I think if a new AD could convince Sands he needed the funding and get his buy in, he would give it to athletics. Just don't think Whit is the right guy at this point. Even some of the insiders on the other boards are starting to comment that things aren't particularly well-run in the AD and not a place with good vibes right now.
It's also binary; he could be just 'good' and be somewhat limited by his superiors.
It's not just meddling; it could be the general direction. If Sands says the priority is a diverse athletic department that competes in 22 sports (whatever the number is), and he's not willing to invest purely in football (even in the short term) then Whit is limited.
Sands is one of the presidents who voted to add Cal and Stanford to the ACC for negligiblr direct financial improvements because he wants VT to be viewed as peers to those institutions.
Despite everything I said above, this could be true (in addition to or instead of). I just don't have the insight to make that call.
I'm also open to this argument. But is Sands and the BoV going to hire a guy that will push back or no?
At the end of the day, we have some combination of making bad hires and/or not having alignment. From my perspective, it's unclear where the disconnect is.
Allllll that said, I agree whit doesn't get a second chance to hire a football or MBB coach.
I sort of feel the writing is on the wall here. I just feel like we are going to have to make a change at AD, and the next person is going to have to hire a new football and MBB coach. In regards to Pry...I hate to say it, but I think we hired VT's version of Mike London. Great salesman, terrible coach. I think Fu likely was a better pure football coach than Pry by a significant margin, but obviously had other issues. It's clear we are not a well-coached team and this staff isn't P4 caliber.
Didn't Whit hire a basketball coach who took VT to the elite eight?
And didn't he hire another who took VT to the women's Final Four? And when that coach was stolen, didn't Whit hire another coach who seems pretty decent within a week?
And didn't VT win two ACC championships in basketball?
Isn't fundraising a lot better than before Whit was here?
I'm not a Whit fanboy, but objectively, he's a decent Athletic Director, which includes overseeing more than just football. So suggesting that we fire him because the football team lost two games by six points total seems a bit over-the-top, especially when most of the people here aren't even convinced that Pry should be fired.
I'm as mad/concerned as the next person, but scapegoating isn't the answer, and it's not realistic.
Unless you hire someone who can spin hay into gold, switching the person in the AD seat isn't going to fix what ails the football program. We know football is #1, and so does Whit.
Yes, some seats should be getting warm enough to make some visible changes to the football coaching staff. No, we're not going to pay Pry to go away right now.
Herein lies the problem with this argument. You say that being the AD requires overseeing more than just football. In a sense, you're right. But realistically, and financially, football has to be the main priority. It is the revenue maker that supports your investment in other sports. If the cash cow dies, your whole athletics department dies. You can't make unsustainable investments in those other sports and let football continue to decline. It's just not feasible at a school like VT where we don't have P2 money or enormous donor support like UNC or UVA for non-revs.
Whit has failed enormously in the number one most important duty of his job - run a successful VT football program.
What ails the AD and VT football program is largely one key thing. Yes resources are always important, but we have enough for VT to perform and reach its ceiling. We have a small town country club AD with too many legacy holdovers from the Beamer days and too many people who have never been a part of a winning, championship caliber AD making decisions and running the program. It's why a first time coach like Pry was able to hire two first-time coordinators, but he was connected with the right circles in Blacksburg that helped him get the job. We have to get away from that mentality and hire the best coaches for the job, not the best fit with the circles at Blacksburg Country Club. There's a reason JMU loses coaches but continues to be a strong program - they hire the best coaches they can for the job and understand football.
We all agree that football is the most important. My point is that it's not the only aspect of the job.
And the problem with the "Let's fire Whit" argument is that it doesn't accomplish the goal of making football any better, if it's still "Let's wait and see" on Pry.
"Let's fire Whit" is premature, as Pry still has years on his contract, and we won't be buying him out right now. It makes no sense to fire Whit unless you're also firing Pry.
I can't disagree with the Blacksburg Country Club argument, because I don't know anything about that. But nobody was getting hired when Beamer was coach unless they got along with the folks who established the program. If those folks are still around and holding back the program, I think they're all fair game.
The more immediate fix is to scrounge up some resources for Pry, and push for some more immediate changes in the coaching staff.
We made $5 mil in profit last year. That's enough to add a mil to the coordinators and two top 20 coaches for 2.5 years
Winner right here. Where are these surplus funds going? Obviously not reinvested in the program. This is Whit's MO - do things on the cheap and roll surpluses into bonuses and raises. Cry poverty and quietly squirrel away $5 mil.
We made $5 mil in profit last year. That's enough to add a mil to the coordinators and two top 20 coaches for 2.5 years
I don't understand your comment. Two top 20 coaches in what, for 2.5 years?
It's time to spend more money on football coaches, if we have it.
1.8 mil is in the top 20 coordinator pay (overall not just offense or defense). ~850k is what we pay. We had $5 mil in profit last year. So 5 mil is 2.5 mil per coordinator, or 2.5 years of pay to hire top coordinators
Where are you seeing final numbers from last year?
I was wrong my number is old we made like 13 mil
Knight report
Says who? Has anyone proven this?
We have enough resources to be better than the shit we have seen the last 10 years
True to a point but that isn't what he said.
We have the resources to reach our ceiling - and that ceiling might just be competing for the ACC and occasional playoff conversation. Didn't say our ceiling was annual national title contender without a major influx of cash.
We are struggling to be middle of the pack in the ACC, which is unacceptable given teams like Wake with no real football fan support have been far better coached and won more in the last several years than we have. We have the current resources to be competitive in the ACC as it is.
This is my point of view as well. Let's maybe try to reach out potential before we complain about resources. I would love to spend SEC money on football, but beating Vandy and Rutgers should be possible without needing waterslides in the athletic dorms or paying unproven highschool QBs seven figures.
And there we go, Tech's issue for the last 40 years. Focus on seeing results before committing to resources to improve results. It took Frank Beamer accepting a job at UNC after taking the team to a NC game before people even thought about upping the pay scale and that lasted 3-4 seasons.
Money is a macro issue, but it's hard for many to want to give more when the team performance continues to go down. At some point the team has to show you that they can beat Vandy and Rutgers. If we had SEC level resources today, I don't think the powers that be would use them appropriately anyway. I guarantee everyone on staff would just get raises if they make a bowl game.
Case in point: if VT played JMU right now, a program with a much smaller budget than VT, they would absolutely smoke us. There is little confidence in the AD and staff. Who wants to give more to that? Even Mehul over on 247 posted in a non-paywall thread expressing some heartburn over the amount of his own money he has poured into this disaster.
The issue is we needed that money 5,10, and 15 years ago for long term success today. You don't build a program (not a team) teams can have bad years look at FSU, Michigan, Bama, Clemson, Texas, UGA etc true long term success programs they ALL have have had bad years sometimes even a few in a row. But they had the money and resources to fix the issues in those bad years and come out the other side better. Tech hasn't so when our bad times started can we make it back up the hill?
I agree with you there. VT completely squandered its window of opportunity in the late 90s/early 2000s to really take advantage of our program momentum and emphasize fundraising. While we were in our peak years, we should have really ramped up Hokie Club. But we didn't, it was a country club operation to ensure season ticket holders got their seats and parking passes. And here we are today - that culture was never fostered and we are at a 30 year low in football, with glory days further in the rear view mirror. People are tapped out, especially in this NIL age. There is no incentive to give now when we can't even beat teams that we should and look as poorly as we do on the field.
It can't be stated enough how much financially was put into THIS season. We tanked the basketball programs and diverted a ton of cash and NIL money from our big donors to retain this roster so we could make a big step back into national relevancy this year. Basically VT put almost all of its dry powder into this season, and we look just as bad if not worse than last season. Fans and donors are tapped out, and the team is going in the wrong direction.
Actually, yeah it kinda is. He didn't say where that ceiling was, just that we aren't reaching it. Which, if you agree that our resources should be getting us a better result than what we have been seeing for the past decade or so, then you agree with that basic premise.
No he did not, because we have never been to the elite 8 in men's basketball.
We did, however, go to the Sweet Sixteen in Men's basketball (for the first time since 1967), the Final Four in Women's basketball (first time ever), and won the ACC championship (first time ever) in both men's AND women's basketball.
My point is that we should give Whit credit for that, as he deserves it. The coaches responsible for those teams were all hired by Whit.
Yeah, football is not meeting expectations. What's the best way forward? I don't think it's firing the AD right now, even if his seat should be starting to get a little warm.
The best way forward is to let Pry make some changes and see if he can right the ship.
I think Ballein might be a bigger problem than Whit. He meddled with Fuente and they didn't like each other. He apparently hand picked Pry. Football has sucked basically ever since Beamer left and Ballein has been at the center of things
To be fair, football started sucking when Beamer was still here. No one we've brought in since has been able to figure out how to fix it.
This is true, and we've mostly been saddled with "half measures", trying to preserve something we think we've already got.
That approach didn't really work out for the long term.
Oh 100%.
If you're going to clean house, clean it. Don't keep around anyone who has their hands in the football cookie jar. Keeping around the guy who is helping pull strings behind the scenes during the worst period of VT football in about 30 years is insane, and its ridiculous he's still here and managed to essentially get a promotion through the Fuente crisis.
He is now teaching us that losers lose the same.
Don't forget his whole "small donors don't matter" bullshit.
Yep, as a 20+ year donor and Golden Hokie that pissed me right the fuck off.
Don't forget the Nike deal and him basically saying that people on social media don't donate enough for him to care about their opinions
There have to be some serious conversations with lots of folks. It's simply not acceptable.
My mama told me... if you can't say something good, say nothing at all.
My lips are sealed.
I'm proud of the way we fought back, I really thought we had it. Too many turnovers, too many penalties. Have to hope for a miracle next week.
It's coaching. Plain and simple. I'm tired of the moral victories of well, we played with a lot of heart and fought back...blah blah blah. It's tired and old.
I was fine with moral victories each of the last 2 years. Not anymore. They have to win a [bleep][bleep] 1 score game and beat a P4 team outside of the ACC.
Correct and the fact I'm not mad about a loss to fucking Rutgers tells the story of where my fandom is and where I suspect many others are.
Honestly, yeah, there was some admirable fight there. Unfortunately this staff is not putting them in positions to succeed.
I mean, a three and out to start was not ideal, but we did force a three and out. At that moment, I thought well, maybe the next drive we will get things going.
Then, of all things. A fluke turnover.
If only his forearm had hit, or elbow, or knee, any fucking thing. It just seems like when bad things happen, this team falls into the trap it's been in for at least a decade. A losing mentality.
That is such a stupid rule to me. How in the 100+ years football has existed there isn't a rule distinguishing someone's palms from the top of their hand.
I've never seen someone trying to keep their balance with the top of their hand. That "fumble"was forced by the ground and logically should have been down by contact.
It does seem that VT is brilliant at finding these kinds of rule inconsistencies, always against VT.
Tyrod kept a scramble alive by putting the back of his hand carrying the ball on the ground. If the ball had touched, he would have been ruled down, IIRC.
Play starts at 6:33, a closeup replay of the Jumbotron happens at 6:45
I think this is pretty close to where I was sitting at this game!
During the game I didn't realize it was THIS bad
EDIT the numbers don't add up but after I took this screenshot ESPN updated the stats to show that Rutgers' TOP filled in the gap, 39:20 to 20:40
The announcers towards end of the 3rd said it was 2:1 so it got marginally better
Edit: after your edit I guess it really didnt
We had 3 offensive plays 9 min into the first.
Actually this isn't as one-sided as I thought it was.....
I have nothing nice to say about this coaching staff. Nothing.
We lost 2 years in a row to fucking to the New Jersey state school that is not called New Jersey State.
Appreciate the fight. But that is not good enough in year 3 with all the returning players. Less than 7 wins and Marve and Bowen need to go. If Pry won't make the change, Pry needs to go. They have 8 more games and can turn it around. But running out of excuses.
I'm not sure I'd say Bowen needs to go. I think our O-line is SO bad it makes it hard to get any kind of plays to work. I feel like we saw that last year, we did some scheming to make up for the line, but any time we played a team with a really solid D line, we couldn't make much happen. Both our lines just got overpowered today.
The D-line was one of the brightest parts of the Hokies today. They were blowing up plays. Rutgers averaged 2.9 yards per rush, gave up 3 sacks, 7 TFLs. The D overall was OK, but couldn't get off on 3rd down and blitzed into a back-breaking WR screen that led to the game winning FG after tying up the game. And that especially true when you consider the D was on the field for 40 minutes of the game.
Yea, I've been pretty hard on Marve lately, but the defense is starting to look competent.
Every quarter I flip which coordinator i think we need to replace first.
So damn true smh
The Defense played well enough to win this game. If the offense did anything at all in the first half Tech would be walking away with a victory right now. They aren't the 85 bears but they didn't lose this game.
Like connecting on a 78 yard TD pass that was so open you couldn't believe...twice!
You could say the defense definitely played well enough to win. For 25 minutes of the second half, they played great, and allowed the offense to get back in the game. You could also point out that they got very little pressure on what was a questionable QB coming into this game, took forever to adjust to that jet motion RPO play that Rutgers ran over and over to devastating effect, and gave up a back breaking big play at the end. Rutgers left points on the field in the first half, but they moved the ball efficiently, and TOP eventually took its toll at the end. If the offense was more consistent, and kept the defense off the field for 5 or 10 more minutes, this defense would have been enough. But they didn't, and this defense was just not good enough to win it on their own.
We've had 2 OL coaches (not to mention that Bowen was an OL coach in the past) and we've seen at best marginal improvement on the OL in 2 seasons.
Maybe the personnel is that bad. But you still need to scheme around your weaknesses. Leipold has done it twice. Key has done it. Vandy did it this season.
Not much to say.
Team takes way too long to get going. For 3 quarters we are among the worst coaches teams in the country and then we turn it on to crawl all the way back and then completely collapse.
I'm tired of this same old song and dance
Sucks that the bus can't crash when it's a home game.
Fuck this team, I'm done for the foreseeable future.
Remember when Joe warned us to figure out the line and not cross it? This is so far past it and maybe the worst comment I've ever read on this site.
What's Pry's record in one score games now?
1-9
Scott Frost Jr
Very, very, very bad.
ACC Network panel just absolutely lit into the coaching staff, and deservedly so. This is a mess. This team has no identity and that's all on the coaching. We should be better than this.
I just dont have any faith that the current Powers That Be have the capacity to turn this around and that might be the saddest realization of all
There were some positive signs but we absolutely should not be at the point where we're left looking for positive signs in this kind of loss.
Sad, but true. Whit is 100% to blame for this shit. Look, I wanted, so bad, for Pry to be successful at Tech. He's a country style boy with great heart and good in public. He's Frank Beamer 2.0 tbh. But he is also Fuente 2.0- too goddamn loyal to his buddies and too scared to have hard conversations. Whit need to go first because NOBODY deserves a third shot to hire a football coach. After that, let the next AD decide whether to keep Pry and Co. for the future. I'm done with this shit. We obviously have the talent to win these games. If we don't, it's coaching and that either gets fixed or it gets fixed higher up.
I don't know - he had way more hard conversations with players based on how many we've seen leave. I wonder if he'll realize it's time for coaching changes. Hell, given how quietly Whit has handled stuff, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if we fired a couple coaches and immediately named the new coaches to replace them. But who knows?
Idk, but from the outside looking in, Whit is A HUGE problem. Not THE ONLY problem. But after 2 tries, you kind of have to start there, no?
I don't think so. Someone did some research before, I think while they were working on hiring someone (eventually Pry) about how many new hires are actually successful. And even some that are very successful at one school doesn't guarantee they will be successful at another. I could be wrong, but I think it's like 20%, which means, theoretically, we'd have to hire 5 coaches to find one. The odds are stacked against any AD that doesn't already have crazy amounts of money.
The other challenge is, especially given the odds of finding a successful coach, is having to pay buyouts. Some SEC programs can afford to turn over a coach every couple years, but we can't. I think right now, Whit has to have a conversation with Pry (if he hasn't already) about how the other coaches are doing. I said above I think both line coaches need to go as well as linebackers.
if I recall correctly, the stat is 2/3 head coaching hires are gone after 5 years
Can we get JMU's OC???
It pains me to type this, but I don't think there is a staff member in the athletic department at JMU who would not be an improvement over their counterpart at Virginia Tech
I'm honestly over the JMU bullshit. Over it. They won a shit ton in FCS- congrats. Every time they have a good season, their coach bolts. They play a sunbelt schedule and always go to the wire with garder fucking webb. Fuck JMU. They have no idea what its like to recruit against Clemson, FSU, Penn State and sign good players. No fucking clue. If VT had 1/2 of of their shit together, we wouldn't ever lose to ODU or Liberty- JMU's peers. In fact Liberty is probably better. Fuck all of this JMU shit. They were a great FCS team- now they are an average sunbelt team. Who gives a fuck. VT being in its worse 8 year period since 1991 is irrelevant. Let JMU play our schedule - see if they go 12-1 every fucking year. They winning in Tally last year? fuck no. They beating Louisville? No. they barely beat UVA FFS. Im sick of it. If they had the same exact program located in ANY other state nobody on this board would mention their fucking name.
They went 7-1 in the SunBelt last year, so I'd say above average. Would they beat FSU or Louisville? No. But they also wouldn't be in a nailbiter against ODU's 3rd string quarterback who can't complete a pass.
Their coach bolts every year and somehow they manage to hire somebody who understands the basics of coaching an actual football team on game day (have a gameplan, don't have two people wearing the same number, dont sleepwalk through the first half). They don't have their former coach's old loser buddy (John Ballein) running the program in the shadows and sabotaging coaches.
Also they won a natty in women's lax a few years ago. Something that despite the same recruiting footprint and presumably more resources, VT has never come close to doing.
is there a person in the VT athletic department that you would take over their JMU peer?
In terms of lacrosse- I have stated on this board a million times that its hard to be worse in Olympic sports than VT is in terms of winning championships- you can't be worse than we are. So no shock JMU can commit to womens lacrosse and actually win something. Whit Babcock would have fucked that up royally too. So yes fair point. 2. They beat ODU by 3 last year. 3. No argument from me on fossil Ballein either. The fact that VT won't cut that grift or assign him to a club sport is asinine. Point is that South Alabama football is never a topic on this board. So why the fuck should JMU football be?
I really wasn't aware that there was that much discussion about JMU football on here. I was just commenting (and stand by it) that their athletic department is far more competent than our own.
Despite the fact that they have fucking interstate running through the middle of their campus, most undergrads never go to a single football game in four years, and their stadium is 50% little league bleachers that probably have wheels underneath that they can roll away for marching band practice.
lol amen!
This JMU undergrad went to 2 his freshman year, then never again. So, yes, this is accurate.
Honestly, this is true about jmu. The student body in general doesn't care about the football games but they'll brag all effing day about it. Very annoying.
Several years ago when they we're hosting the first round of fcs playoffs, the wife was like 'hey let's take the kids and go see a playoff game since it's close (20 minutes from our house)'. Keep in mind, we don't have any allegiance to jmu (the wife went there but she doesn't claim it), we don't donate or anything of the sort. She bought the tickets, cheap. Ended up being on the second row around the 40-45 yard line. Basically about as good as you can get especially for a playoff game. Very good viewing experience but the constant purple and gold streamers raining down on you throughout the game was annoying AF.
Im just over it. Fuck JMU- to your point, let there be a playoff game in Lane and see if you can get face value tickets. JMU was a fucking FCS school 5 mins ago. Now they are in the sunbelt with Rich Rod and other dog shit teams. App State was a darling and now they are 100% meh- nobody. JMU will never even be Boise- who were actually good in a much better MWC and had players drafted in the NFL. Now Boise also is - meh. They will be competing with the likes of JMU to go on the road in the playoffs to play at Ole Miss or Tennessee and get smoked like a drum. I could give zero absolute fucks that they beat a soft ass UNC. Zero fucks- congrats. An ACC team at noon overlooked JMU - who wants to prove how good they are. Fuck that game, Fuck JMU. If they go undefeated they will travel to Michigan and get dusted in the playoffs. Good for them. They could also easily lose 3 sunbelt games. I'm over it- they are nothing.
On Friday night, Miami might make us envy the UNC vs JMU game from today.
I've defended the playcalling a lot. That's last drive was terrible.
We just tied the game up by marching down the field without throwing a pass.
Down 3, 2 min on the clock, 3 time outs. What do we do?
How do you not keep it on the ground?!?
I agree but we probably do call a run if Felton doesn't drop the first down pass. That's a 7 or 8 yard gain at least which then opens things up. It's not a bad first down call, but the drop puts you in a terrible bind. Perhaps a run to gain a few years makes more sense. Idk.
But Felton isn't the best player on the field... he's not the hot hand either.
Because you need those timeouts and wouldn't want to use them after a run for 2 yards on first down at the 25.
Proud of the fight? Losing at home to Rutgers?
That's how far we've fallen?
Clean house & start with Whit.
Yep seeing a Rutgers program that will always take its lumps in the B1G has passed VT is incredibly demoralizing.
Starting to have doubts talent level wise, but I'd still bet that if we swap coaches with Vandy and Rutgers VT would have won both games with the exact same roster.
Dude. Do you know how many programs are actually able to hire winning coaches? We were sheltered sooo long having Beamer we never saw it. But other programs that use to be incredibly good have gone through several coaches that didn't work out. Hopefully Pry will realize some of his staff need to go. If he does that, it would be interesting to see who he brings in. I mean, our program was in the toilet from a roster and culture perspective when Fuente left. Granted, year 3 we should be seeing some good results. The culture is definitely better, but our roster, especially both lines, haven't improved enough to make us competitive, and it's sad our linebackers aren't worlds better than what we've seen.
VT is not special. We think we are, but we are not. Schools fire coaches ever year and somehow their programs don't disappear. Teams switch coordinators, teams switch apparel deals, teams fire AD's- EVERY year. But VT is special I suppose? nonsense. We could bungle coaching changes like Auburn or we could be Tennessee and USC and finally get it right one day and be as good as we ever have been. Or we could continue the VT is special thing and "oh you can't fire Pry" mindset and continue to lose to every P4 non con team we play.
I'm not saying we can't fire a coach. But if you do fire one every 3 years, you wind up paying a crap ton in buyouts (and no, we wouldn't be able a decent coach without a buyout clause). And if you're paying a ton in buyouts, you sure as hell can't afford a decent coaching staff.
It's definitely better if Pry fires coaches under him that don't have buyouts and tries to turn things around. If not, I'd think you can't fire a head coach more often than every 5 years.
If Tuten gets a few more carries on early downs we win this game. Coaching is inept and the lack of OC experience on the entire staff is an obvious laughable issue
I don't disagree with this, but the I'm also not sure it's right. We're so damn predictable that I'm sure what the answer is, or if that would work.
That second scoring drive in the fourth was the first time we ran the Tuten toss, the first time we ran the Schlee option routes and it worked! A few that too was predictable. Need to find a balance of predictable and creative, where even if they know what's coming they can't stop it.
At least they've finally gotten to the point where I've disassociated with the team so much that I just don't really care.
Every single game we are flat for a half and wait to make any adjustments.
Someone (hell, multiple) need to go.
We've effectively killed funding for every other sport to spotlight this team.
Worst comment? Grow a pair.
Advocating harm on anyone, let along fucking kids playing a game for your entertainment, is pretty fucking disgusting
Kids... Over 18? Making millions...
Gtfo
Dude, take a break.
Log off for the night and dont try blaming your drunk brother this time
I am getting bad. Year after year of promise and disappointment I am starting to check out. My wife looked online and found a lobster truck at a nearby brewery. I made the decision. Turned the game off and went to the brewery to have a nice time. I made the right call.
Ditto, I turned it off after the fumble to start our first possession in the third quarter. Noticed we'd tied it up in the fourth, but didn't turn it back on because I had no confidence we'd pull it out. No regrets on that decision. I just can't watch the incompetence anymore.
To hijack from another thread:
Pry's Culture is....Not Good Enough.
I know the optimists among us are going to praise the "fight" and "not giving up"....great....except 2 things:
1) Football games are 60 MIN long. Until I see a Team that plays tough, focused Football for a full 60 min, I see very little that is worthy of praise. "Fight" for 60 minutes instead of 25.
2) Rutgers could have (and probably should have) cruised to a 2 TD victory. Missed FG, 2 drives that died on the 1 yd line. The score could have been 37-7 at one point.
This Staff needs a massive restructuring because this simply is not a team that is getting better.
Not my fault you all enjoy getting con'd into investing a ton of money with no return.
Fuck this team.
Dude chill. Not cool at all.
Take a break. Go outside and go for a walk. We are all disappointed with the team. It's not that important and certainly not worth wishing harm to people.
Whits demise was not hiring Bud as HC. Fight me all you want, but the dude was a ball coach that got everything out of his guys. And that comes directly from the mouth of a very close friend that put the O&M on for 2 years.
Nope. Bud wasn't the answer either looking back. First his health he would have either died coaching or had to medically retire. Also his style wasn't that much different than Beamer's and looking back that's where our long term issues started under Beamer.
Long term was he the answer? No, but as a gap filler, he may have been. My buddy told me straight out that he was the only coach on staff that Bud was the only guy he would have gone the hell for. This is after the 2016 Miami game, mind you. He told me, word for word, "Fuente won't pan out, Bud is the only guy that players connect with anymore". Look where we are.
You can NOT hire a gap filler. You can't recruit for shit when players know your coach is on the way out. I think we struggled recruiting towards the end of Beamer's tenure because everyone saw it coming, and other coaches were almost definitely using that in recruiting pitches against us. You have to hire someone you consider a potential long term coach.
Working pretty good for GT and Tennessee. Both of those programs hired bridge coaches so their athletic dept had time to organize, fundraise, and mobilize, with the goal of being a more attractive destination in 3-5 years.
But as it pertains to this conversation, I don't think it's a given that Bud would've worked out. I can easily imagine a way where it goes just as bad, if not worse, than the Fuente era. I can also imagine it going great (or at least good enough). We'll never know.
Hanging this game on the coaches isn't right. We get a three and out, fumble the punt and give them the ball in scoring position. We get a goal line stop and get blocked into the qb for a safety. Several similar things through the game. The game was lost by players.
Agree to disagree...Rutgers offense controlled the game on offense for over 3 quarters with their best player only getting under 70 yds rushing. Rutgers literally ran the same play multiple times and we couldn't stop it.
And multiple times ran that same play 2+ times in a row....
I haven't gotten to see the other games, but how much of the WR development, lack thereof, or otherwise, is because we don't really get to see what they're capable of because our O-line can't give Drones any time to let a passing play develop? It seems like he has to get rid of the ball pretty damn quick, and isn't necessarily the most accurate passer. I mean, his combination of running ability and passing ability I think are good, just wonder how much better we could be if we actually had a GOOD O-line?
They're missing blocks and not selling fakes. None of that has anything to do with the OL or QB
Drones comfort level in the pocket, passing accuracy, and ability to scan the field are much worse than I thought. It's a real deficiency for the offense. Plus, there is an inability to call audibles based on formation.
I was expecting an improved Drones in 2024. I think there has actually been a regression.
I think that camp he went to has got him overthinking.
Something isn't right, for sure. He's making bad decisions all over the field. The safety wasn't his fault, but the two turnovers were. Especially the game ending interception.
Same as 100% of VT QBs for the last 14 years. Tyrod is the last time a VT QB who played a meaningful number of snaps has ever shown improvement year-over-year.
The offense absolutely has to change. Fire Bowen now. Promote someone else. Do literally anything else.
That said. Drones left 14 points on the field with his misses on the deep balls.
That's coaching though.... I get where you're coming from, I really do. But if he can't read the D to know that's going to come open, OR the OL can't hold the DL long enough for him the blink once and turn his head across field, that's coaching.
Pry just said in his radio post game that they need to keep feeding Tuten the ball. Isn't he the head coach? I'm really confused what's going on between him and Bowen. He did mention Tuten's injury...
Prys got to have those hard conversations he claimed he wasn't scared to have.
Fireable offense for not having the balls to tell his OC what to do.
Meh, let people succeeded or fail on their own merits.
Pry shouldn't be meddling in the OC's work. OC should be able to run his side of the ball effectively.
Time for a new OC
This.
I thought Tuten was hurt and they were using him as window dressing in the first quarter, but no he's fine.
Tech may be doing him a favor limiting his touches, I'll be shocked if he doesn't have a long (for a RB) NFL career
From the comments above, a lot of you feel the same as me....hopeless.
After the Drones fumble in the 3rd, I turned the TV off and went and did something constructive. I got back and watched the two scoring drives and tied the game and I didn't feel any different than when we're down 23-7 because I just felt we weren't going to win. Brent Pry's teams do not know how to close, it's not a trend, it's a fact. Brent Pry's teams are not well prepared, it's not a trend, it's a fact.
The way I feel today is probably the way many of you felt about Fuente towards the end....Brent Pry is not the man to lead VT football out of the darkness. He was a Walmart level hire, who hired a Dollar General staff. We have some exceptional football players on this team who somehow succeed in spite of this staff, but that isn't enough anymore. Brent Pry can't be our football coach next year if we want VT to mean anything again...add to that the majority of the downfall of VT football has fallen under Whit Babcock's watch cannot be ignored. If we want to survive in the current landscape of college football, we can't wait to see what happens like Frank Beamer was able to do in the late 80's-early 90's. Babcock and Pry have to go...I don't see any way around it, and that ultimately is what sucks most.
Looking to the future, the 1 thing I want more than anything else is an offensive coordinator that does not suck. I'm not even asking for good at this point. Just competent. Look at what we have had for so many years:
Stinespring
Lefty - one of something like 5 or 10 OCs that had a worse offense than Stinespring the year before IIRC
Corny
Bowen
I mean you almost have to try to pick worse OCs than what we have had for 20 years.
I have wondered if it's not institutional. The "good ol boys" that either hang around or are still employed by the athletic department, who make up what was once the "old guard" under Beamer, and who still have a voice at the table, have a specific vision of what Tech football is. Their vision is one in which we play hard nosed, smash mouth defense, and don't try to do anything too fancy on offense.
So, over and over, through three staffs now, at an institutional and cultural level, there has been no priority placed on competency around offensive scheme. Our best years on offense have come on the backs of generationally talented players like Vick, Tyrod, Thomas, Suggs, Wilson, etc etc etc. None of that success was due to scheme. It was due to freak athletes literally improvising on the field to put plays together.
That fancy offense stuff? That's not for us. We're a defense school.
This mindset prevails even today, in my opinion.
Joe once gave the analogy of a ma and pa shop that wants to become a larger business without losing the charm of being a family business.
That's the dilemma VT (admin and boosters) have been going back and forth on for over a decade now. It's why people hang around.
I can't imagine that people donating money to the program want to hang onto anything that's not helping us win right now.
No, but they also didn't demand changes either (or didn't have the weight to do so)
Sorry but fire every single one of them too. It's not 2000 anymore, and we're losing trying to still be that school. I don't care if we adopt the Air Raid and try to outscore everyone each week, if that's what gets us winning again that's what I support.
I honestly truly do fully believe that Pry can be a great head coach, but that won't happen unless he brings in good, proven coordinators who have been coordinators or head coaches with a distinct identity to their game.
Bowen and Marve both look like coaches who are in over their head. They are learning on the job and it shows. It was always a mistake to allow him to bring in guys who have never done that job at this level before, and it's absolutely damning that Whit allowed it after the disaster Fuente became.
Pry should get one chance to replace both of them with proven coaches. If he refuses, fire him, fire Whit, and completely clean house. The frustrating thing is, there is talent there that we should be able to win with. We shouldn't be this bad.
Agreed 100%.....there is a reasonable amount of talent on this Roster, enough to beat Rutgers and fucking certainly enough to beat Vandy running a gimmicky G5 offense.
Pry screwed the pooch with his hires. One very established guy who was just looking for a stepping stone (Rudolph) and then two Coordinators with little to no experience beyond position coaches.
I remember that there was a prolonged wait for the O.C. announcement and then we get.....Tyler Bowen???? Marve, I assumed would learn under Pry but since being given the reigns to playcall on his own, he has been completely and totally underwhelming. Quinn is invisible...certainly hasn't raised the LB play.
Mines is really the only guy who has made his mark ---clearly as a Recruiter, waits to be seen if he can really develop this WR corps.
Overall there is enough data out there to tell us what we have and it's a very underachieving Coaching Staff
You won't see the development, if there is any, of the WR room until the QB room can get blocking from the OL long enough to have a half heartbeat.
We overpaid for Rudolph and I was happy at the time as I always believe you build from the inside out.
What I, and I am sure a lot of others, did not know was that he was simply using us. I really expected him to stay longer than he did.
In hindsight that money could have been spent better elsewhere.
Absolutely. He didn't stay long enough to make any kind of impact.
one quibble..
Quinn isn't the LB Coach... Marve is.
Quinn coaches Stars and Nickels.. and Jenkins seems to have actually improved year over year
Crappy part is a lot of that talent will be walking out the door after this season.
I mean, all teams except the elite have inconsistencies. But, damn, that O-line can be so atrocious. The WRs can disappear or drop. And Drones is so up and down, it's infuriating. The defense gets negative plays, gives VT a chance to win, then gives up 60-yard right after tying the game (calling a blitz on first down was interesting...). Idk. The ACC schedule is still ahead, but so many other ACC teams are playing better football I feel like VT maybe playing UVA for a bowl berth.
I guess a silver lining is that Drones doesn't look like he'll be getting NFL or offers in the portal, so VT should have a QB next year.
Not wasting any more energy or thought on this team this week.
This week?
The traveling gang bang we're about to receive between Miami and Stanford has me only concerned with being able to edge UVA by a point. But home field advantage doesn't exist for us anymore so they very well make us their bitch this season.
The team shows flashes of brilliance but mostly looks completely inept. Sometimes they don't even bother to start playing until the second half. Baffling inconsistency and a lack of preparation that comes down to shit coaching.
I've been a huge Pry apologist but the way that game unfolded was infuriating.
In terms of the actual play on the field, we are shockingly weak in both OL play and the LBs. The OL was complete dog water for the first 3 quarters, and we are lucky their shit play didnt knock Drones out for the season today. And the LBs wouldn't know how to fill the appropriate gap on a running play if they were personally handheld to them. The amount of times they just completely sell out on fakes is stunning. They are bad, they've been bad, and they aren't getting any better
I'm still fine with Pry as coach. But he does need to have conversations with coaches this offseason. Mainly the OL Coach. That's my big grip. I've seen Bowen call good games and the players play good games. The OL is horrible this year. I don't know where the disconnect is other than that at least.
Bowen is a terrible OC. He has no identity, he throws shit at the wall until something sticks and then tries to make that work the rest of the way. It gives us this false sense of an evolving game plan over the course of a game, but the reality is, he has no scheme and it's really difficult to get the players ready to play when you know you're going to intentionally spin tires for about half the game.
The most damning thing I saw today was a designed run in the second quarter that was so slow to run that 2 defenders had enough time to run around the OL, and get to Drones while he was still handing off leading to a tackle at the mesh point. Even if that was a read option, it was so painfully slow that it absolutely had no hope of working.
How is the team allowed to execute plays that slowly? And by no means is it an outlier, hell, we had one of the slowest punts I've ever seen blocked against Marshall just a couple weeks ago. The team is just too slow and methodical.
No Identity Whatsoever.
We played this bizzare, screen on every third play offense vs. Vandy. Did Zero against Marshall until we remembered Tuten was on the Roster. Now we are apparently back to running QB powers and Zone-Reads with Drones, which were nearly non-existent in weeks 1-2.
Its almost like there he has no experience calling plays at this level and he's still trying to figure out how to get the Training Wheels off---oh, yeah.
But is slow movement the OC or the players fault.
I mean if Bowens gone after this year I have no heartburn over it. But I have seen him call good games.
I think OL is the priority. But I'm not a football coach so take it with a grain of salt.
But here's the problem....
The OL was baaaad when Pry took over and we are
(A) significantly better
(B) modestly improved
(C) not better in any objective way.
If you're going to complain that the personnel aren't good enough find new players.
Stop fucking running Parker Clements out there and expecting him not to get thrown on his ass like a ragdoll.
Duke built a competent OL from the portal..hell Vandy's OL looks passable this year. Yet, we continue to excuse our coaches because "OL are impossible to find in the Portal"---apparently only for us.
If the personnel isn't the problem, then coach them up. That hasn't happened either. Crooks has been around long enough to see some progress....and there is none.
Find me all the portal OL who are making a difference. Guarantee it will average less than one per team in FBS.
Vandy had 3 portal OL.
None "names" or from prominent programs.
Vandy rush yd/at: 3.8 --- VT 2.5
Vandy sacks allowed: 2 --- VT 4.
I'm not asking for a top-5 OL averaging 6.5 YPC....i just need an OL who doesn't fucking break their QBs ankles getting pushed back into them. You can't convince me there aren't more functional OL than Parker Clements or Bob Schick in the Portal
On the bright side. At least Drones got to see an endzone for once.
As much railing as I saw on the thread about Clements, that safety was entirely on Drones
Drones is trash.
That safety was on drones. He had a guy streak across the middle wide open .
This was ESPN's favorite highlight of the game, I even got a push notification about it while the game was still in progress. Being a laughingstock should be awesome for our recruiting.
Remember when there was a thought we could be entering the Clemson game at something like 8-1 or 7-2??? Those were good times
Ahhh the days of the off-season, where hope was high. I remember them well
Mathematically speaking, 7-2 is obviously still possible. Based on what I've seen from us and all the other programs ahead of us before Clemson - 2-7 seems a lot closer to what we should expect to see.
Two things I suggest that would help the team(one SEMI joking and one serious):
1) petition the NCAA to allow out games to only count the second halves of games
2) Have a team motivational meeting where the coaches take them to a field and have the players and coaches both dig a monstrous hole; throw the current playbooks in it and bury them; then tell the players that if they want to dig a hole, do it here not at the beginning of EVERY SINGLE f#%^#ing GAME !!!!
I don't care if they have to put a walk on punter at right tackle. Clements HAS to go.
Drones huge run in the 4th was off a busted block by Clements
Drones big run nearly ended in catastrophe in a fumble, if we are being honest.
Agreed. Glad he held onto the ball. Not an expert but Clements highlight reel, may consist of jumping jacks and Drones turning a missed block into 40 yards
I mean that's fine and all, but Clements getting absolutely abused while trying to pass block almost ended Drones' season when he stepped on his ankle, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not overly joyful he had one good play in an otherwise miserable outing
This just in...Rutgers just ran a triple option play to get on their flight back to Jersey and it went for a touchdown!
I have no idea what we are doing on offense anymore. 5-12 on 3rd downs is atrocious.
The way the season is going so far, I can't wait for WBB. Maybe Georgia Amoore and Lexi Blue can get us back to the final...oh wait, VT athletics, we can't have nice things.
This team, because of the coaches is hot garbage. Rutgers is a pretty good team, but not that good. As many have said above, I can appreciate the fight, but at some point moral victories are only good for PeeWee and JV level football teams.
Our defense did a pretty good job at stopping the run, but then we give up almost 300 yards passing to an average, at best, QB. We really have not progressed as a team or program. If anything, Pry, while elevating the roster, has taken this program (at least the product on the field) backwards.
I like Pry, I want him to succeed, but he will need to clean house for me to believe in him moving forward. Burn the whole thing down.
I'm a broken record at this point about my not understanding how Pry can't get this team hyped up before a game and they come out flat every single game so I'll change it up.
One of the worst parts about this game is seeing the halftime and postgame crew ripping our choice to keep Clements or having to listen to Herzlich repeatedly point out that our linebackers are falling for that damn triple option over and over again or having Dan fucking Orlovsky make a meme out of our safety. It's just embarrassing in so many ways.
Don't listen to Pry's postgame! lol
Mickey Mouse ass staff.
But hey maybe if we just pay them more they'll do better. It will make us "more competitive"
You don't pay them more; you find better staff. Those people are more expensive.
You dont find Logic and Reason in a vent thread, either
You can't read the sarcasm?
Most of the time those people are more expensive yes. But last cycle we went out and found these guys who weren't expensive according to the market, but we paid them a whole lot more than they were worth anyway.
And these ass clown assistant coaches are asking for raises when the product they putting out there is inferior to how it used to be.
I wish I could suck at my job and be like "Yeah, pay me more please!"
They were paid as top 50 coordinators, and with a year they were outside the top 80. They were paid accordingly as first time P5 coordinators.
First time coordinators do not deserve top 50 salary plain and simple, so no that's [" They were paid accordingly as first time P5 coordinators."] not true.
We did not need to give them close to 100% raises in order for them to jump to much better jobs. That was spending money just to spend it. It was not smart or necessary. Where are the other programs doubling a coach's salary to hire him for a position he has no experience in??
"Deserved" has nothing to do with it. GT hired an analyst from UGA to be a first time OC, and his starting salary was $800k, and he got a $200k after one season.
This is the reality of college football.
Well if they were in the top 50 and that's standard but now they're in the top 80, why don't we give them another raise to be top 50? We only pay the "standard" right?
Look, idk what to tell you - we paid for unproven potential at the coordinator sport. We paid a lot for certain position coaches, and less for others. At the start of the 2021 offseason, we had the 3rd highest staff salary in the ACC. By the beginning of 22 season, it had fallen to 6th.
The market is constantly being reset.
You can argue pry should have distributed the money differently. You can argue that bowen/marve were bad hires. But their pay/experience was pretty similar to coaches with similar experience levels.
You dont find generally find logic in the vent thread
You're replying to the comment that is taking the liberties with logic. His Buster Faulkner example leaves out that he had ELEVEN prior years of OC experience before going to GT. Bowen had called plays for ONE GAME. Those two should not be hired at comparable salaries. Also as he pointed out Faulkner was hired a year later after a huge inflation in the average coordinator salary.
Also forgot Bowen got an extension after last year, fuck me.
Are you saying we should pay our coordinators more so they coach better? Because that's what it sounds like
Yeah it's sarcasm. That's what I'm saying seemed to be the reason for hiring them at such a high salary when Pry first put the staff together
I was joking to point out the contradiction in what you're saying. I understand what your argument is for sure. But will maintain when hiring someone you only need to pay them what will make them take the job. No one was breaking down the door to hire these dudes before we did (FSU fans were actually glad to see Marve go)
But you can fall into a trap, Cornelson out coached his pay, so do you keep an overachiever? How do you fire some one that is producing so far above his compensation? Bowen is 98th and Marve isn't top 100 this year. So anything better than 50th in offensive or defensive performance is them outcoaching their compensation. If Bowen was making 2mil then you fire him today because he's so far below the expectations. But now your in a position where for the money he might do well (not looking good so far though)
I think we need to stop getting into the mindset of if we pay X for a coach, we get Y production in return. Corn was a bad coach that we paid below market for. If a coach is really good and paid under market, they are going to be hired away fast. Who was lining up to hire Corn? 'crickets' We can't definitively say for Pry yet, but we paid around market for a first-time P4 HC. Was anyone else making a run to hire him as an HC then or now? Again, crickets. Same with both Bowen and Marve.
Rather than you get what you pay for with coaching salaries, it's more indicative of what someone is willing to pay that sets the market. That's where the salary inflation is coming from. VT is willing to pay (then in 2021) top 3 ACC for a lot of inexperience. No one else was looking to pay that for the same, or else they would have likely had more lucrative opportunities.
Hate to sound like an economist, but there's no science to these coaching hires and salary. It's simply supply and demand. People will overpay for bad coaches (and even good coaches), and good coaches that are underpaid will be hired away swiftly unless you pony up to retain them. Coaches and agents know their clients' worth.
I agree there is no rhyme or reason to coaching pay, see Kevin Steele. But my point was more there were probably a lot of people pissed we paid Fuente double Frank. So if we could win .600 of games (Fuente was one game away from that record) with the lowest paid OC in football, then why change? If we paid Corn more he wouldn't get better. We could go over pay on some one just as bad. but no one wants tobkeep over paid employees around. It forces the issue.
We were never committed to top 3 pay. Our assistant pool is now smaller than it was when Pry was hired. We are just going to cheap out on coaches and never dangle 2mil at an Odom type DC. Joe Rudolph was the biggest coaching hire VT has ever made fir an assistant. Number is I don't know whom, Shane Beamer? We always have to talk or selves into hires instead of actually perming the check book and getting a big name but that's not VTs culture. We hire cheap and hope it works out.
I'm not even sure that's fully the case. Yeah if you want to chase the hottest names in the business. You can identify good coaches at lower levels, but then you have to pay to retain them which is where the salary inflation happens.
But I think even some of the top paid coaches aren't necessarily the best. If we hired JMUs entire staff, who are currently making a fraction of what our staff pool is, I think we would be much better coached than we are now. They just blew the doors off UNC and look like the best program in VA by a mile.
In the age of NIL I'm also starting to think "recruiting" is less important. VT as a program is going to recruit generally right around the level it always has. Same with Bama and OSU, they will always recruit well regardless of who the coach is. Just don't burn bridges and alienate your pipeline like Fu. I say find the absolute best football coaches you can, sprinkle in a few key recruiters on your staff with high school connections, and make sure you maintain inroads to your program's top recruiting areas. Use NIL strategically for transfers and retention. But make sure your coaches can coach first and foremost and have a track record of success there. Pry could have been the CEO type coach but he didn't hire many good coaches around him, which will be his downfall. Starting to think his success at PSU was talent more than Xs and Os.
The good ... um we only lost by 3 to a coach making $1.5 mil more than ours?
We are two plays away from being undefeated. We keep getting in our own way and that has to be on coaching. I hope they give Pry time to make changes (and that he makes them), but we need an AD that can raise capital so we can afford P4 coaches.
1. Schiano outcoached Pry
2. Bowen not running the ball that last possession is unbelievable
3. The 1st down blitz after we tied the game was a bad coaching decision
4. The defense did a great job most of the game, we still give up a bunch of big plays (we've seen this before). I think that is due to being outcoached in certain situations.
5. Vanderbilt just took #7 Missouri to 2 OTs
We are a middle of the road P4 team who is a couple plays from 4-0, our coaching is not great, Defense is getting better, Offense has no identity and seems to be trying "stuff".
Bowen is the problem. Pry is a defensive guy, he needs confidence in his OC so he doesn't have to worry there. He should of told Bowen, on that last possession to run the ball. Not tell him how, but tell him to run it, that's what a head coach should do. Pry needs a competent OC so he can focus on being an HC and learn to not get outcoached.
If Felton doesn't drop one right in the bread basket nobody is complaining about the last drive. We had less than 2 minutes and started on the 25. What does a first down run for 5 yards accomplish other than burning a timeout prematurely? If we run it and they stop it on first down, we're out a timeout and not a yard closer to field goal range.
Now, if he catches that ball, then sure, hurry up and run it on 2nd and 2 from the 33 yard line.
Bowen deserves some grief, but that last drive wasn't on him.
Bigger picture: I wonder if having Bowen in the QB room hasn't been detrimental after all. Kyron seems to have really regressed.
Even my non football colleague from work commented on how he couldn't hit open receivers on pitch and catch or long passes and how he stared down his first read much more than Rutgers QB.
You can run a ball and be in hurry up and run another play in about 12 seconds without burning a timeout. We were running all over them in the fourth quarter. You can also run a ball out of bounds and stop the clock. Can't completely abandon the run there, especially if you don't swap personnel under hurry up and don't give rutgers a chance to swap.
Thank you! This is my thought exactly. We were beating them to the edge repeatedly.
Generally this is true. But when have you seen this VT offense do anything at all fast? Even when Bowen's crew is in "hurry up" they take forever because something is still off with the communication. It's a trainwreck no matter how you cut it.
Again, I like the philosophy, generally speaking, but VT simply doesn't have the luxury of leaning on something like that at the end of the game.
We had 3 timouts. We just beat them bad to the edge several times. we have to do that. Sorry, I disagree.
i am beyond tired of this shit. i can smooth talk people at least as good as pry, fucking square away the coaching jfc. adjust. schiano, contrary to reports, is a super mid coach.
At this point just give me a team where I'm not afraid to play Rutgers, BC, ect because I know our players aren't physical or mean enough to line up across from teams that have any physicality.
I'm tired of this finesse soft football. Give me 5-6 nasty OL a Tuten and a defense no one wants to line up against.
Amen brother. I'm old enough to remember when we had a strong power running game. Like around the 1990s.
And I'm old enough to have been at all the home games during Beamer's 2-8-1 season. And him being told to fire his assistants, and him doing it with the results we all enjoyed.
Yep, that was my freshman year. We were pretty darn bad.
I am old enough to remember out of conference losses to Alabama and even then we played better. Rutgers, really MFin Rutgers???
I can remember when this was a guaranteed win. We have fallen so far from those days. I don't have any answers but sure as hell have a lot of questions.
Maybe, and probably, I have had too many beverages to lessen this loss, but I am not sure we can be mad enough at where we find ourselves as a program.
Possibly tomorrow I will regret this post but shit, MFin shit, I believe I could assemble a staff better suited to the challenges ahead than we currently have.
Hang in there my man. I don't know if you or I could come up with a better staff or not. Probably not. But as I pointed out above, you would have to try to come up with a worse offensive coordinator staffing than what we have had over the past 20 years.
But guys!!!
We returned so many starters!!!
Kids want top dollar for awful performances. They are in for a rude awakening in the real world. Money is not as good, and the work is real and twice as hard. Also, there are no free meals, room & board, medical, or clothing. You pay for all of that. Any exercise they get will be in their spare time and if it is at a gym they will most likely have to pay for that also unless it is on a military base or in their house. NIL and college athlete perks have kids thinking money grows on trees.
Didn't have a chance to watch today but caught some highlights and followed here and there. Not surprised at the result - I knew this was going to be a loss. Lots of frustration at this point among the fan base. It sucks, but this is where we are.
IMHO, the rot starts at the very top. Whit has had two chances now and has overseen the complete decline and collapse of VT football over the past ten years. He does not know how to run a P4 program. And we diverted money from basketball for this football team which is embarrassing. Football and both basketball teams are bad and facing rebuilds. I'm sorry but dude's got to go. He's had enough chances here.
And I feel sorry for the high level donors who put all this NIL war chest together to retain this roster. I think the coaches are a huge part of the problem, but man...Drones was so incredibly overhyped and overrated. He's just not the QB I think many of us thought he was. Offensive coaching and OL in particular do him no favors, but he's slow in his reads and just can't see the field. We way overpaid for returning this roster.
Changes should be coming, and I think with the overall state of the AD being so down right now in the biggest sports, it starts at the top. Whit and Ballein both need to go, and the new AD gets to decide if Pry can right the ship/impose some staff changes. If he can't do that, he will be gone after next year too. Just unacceptable.
rough game. out coached, out classed, out played.
Insult to injury we still have the dumbass White Effect going on. Not only did we lose but we lost looking bad in a poor replica of another team's signature home game style. We're losers and posers.
End the stupidity. Make our own way with the EnterNight game with Black unis and black clad stadium.
At least we'd lose with style then
This. Dear God, this.
We also didn't wear white uniforms during our white out. It makes no sense to have it if the players aren't going to wear white uniforms.
Not sure the rules, but I think the away team is usually in light color🤷.
looked it up and the home team can wear white if agreed upon before the season in writing. So it seems our Athletic Dept sucks again at long term planning.
There was a guy in front of me in Lane wearing. White T-shirt that said "White is not a team color". My kids couldn't understand why I found that funny,but he nailed it.
Really, really difficult to care about this program when the only thing they do consistently is lose games like this one. The OL being terrible is not a surprise. Undisciplined and soft play from the LBs is not a surprise either. They are what they are at this point.
What is kind of surprising to me is Drones. He has not shown any sign of growth whatsoever, in fact he seems like he's regressing, and it's hard to know how much to lay on him when he is getting such incompetent coaching and blocking. I feel like it's probably a little of column A, little of column B situation. And it's impacting everything else. I kind of thought our skill position guys (Tuten aside) would be showing more as well, but what good are they if the QB can't get them the ball, or even see them when they're open?
I just expected so, so much more from this team after the way they finished up last year.
It seems that firing Fuente was not enough to assuage the deep institutional rot in the Merryman Center. I've kind of been a Whit apologist up to now, but I think that has changed. I know it's not all on him, God knows the ACC has failed us too. But it doesn't really matter what else he's done when he lets the cash cow waste away year on year. He gotta go. Every single complacent, content with mediocrity, stubborn voice in that athletic department that would rather fail their way than succeed someone else's can go right along with him. We should never, ever be losing to Rutgers, and now it's happened in consecutive years.
I love Pry, I really do think he "gets it" and knows how to sell VT. But it's like Mark Gottfried at NC State a few years back. If you have the recruits but not the W's, you'll be gone too, no matter what. And that may be the place we have found ourselves in.
As for why I still care this much, I have no idea. Old habits die hard. At least I know I'm not alone. God, this comment sounds like so many I've made after losses in past years....
I'll try to write up more in the week, but I went ahead and pulled the Net EPA (offense and defense only, no special teams) for the regular season games of Brent Pry era, and it's not great.
TL:DR, we don't play complete games. Factoring in garbage time, we've only defeated teams in all four quarters three times: BC in 2022 and 2023, and UVA in 2023. We are a poorly coached team that runs up the score on bad opponents, loses winnable games, and can't finish against average teams.
If this team is as bad as it has looked so far at seasons end then it's time for a house cleaning. Babcock and Pry should be replaced.
Sorry I couldn't help myself I needed some comedic relief
True, but some of the other ones I've seen gives him credit for the full 3
I don't know what the solution is. Pry will probably get another year.
My reaction to Saturday's loss was: "That seems about right"
We are a bad football team.
Pry will get 2 more years unfortunately. We will be further into the abyss as a program- long from being relevant, back to the days of hoping we beat UVA and that's a good season. I've accepted it. We could miss a bowl this year because we have 36 players that wear the same numbers on a 65 man dress squad. I still see small slow players out there across 2 coaching regimes. We need a major influx of better talent- across the board. Can Whit make a third time a charm and find a Chris Kleiman or Josh Heupel? Or are we stuck in Dave Dorean territory now with a good season now and then? We shall see. In the meantime lower your expectations drastically.
This program is losing me as a fan. I'm checking out. I went to Iron Blossom music festival in Richmond this weekend and only thought about the game when my buddy told me the score. It was such a better use of my time to see live music and have fun with my girlfriend and friends. There were little pieces of VT gear here and there amongst the crowd, but nothing like how it used to be years ago in Richmond, where you saw VT gear every time. I can't be the only one losing interest.
I grew up a diehard Redskins fan and only really saw them win as a 5 year old during the 91 season, which doesn't even count. I broke up with the Skins in my late 20s and it was so satisfying to just not care anymore. I fell in love with VT through college 03-07 and have been diehard fan since. But I'm checking out. I just don't care as much any more and there really isn't a reason to. The Hokies are turning into the Redskins for me and its fucking sad. The entire Gameday experience feels like a shell of itself. The team is meh at best. I always made fun of UVA fans for not caring and here I am, just not caring. I went to Nashville and that will likely be the only game I go to this season. It was fun to see old college friends and frankly, that's really the only reason to go to games any more. Friends are going to the Clemson game but I know I can see those friends outside of BBurg and I can donate my time to a fishing tournament benefitting veterans. The game is an absolute afterthought. I'm just beaten down by the mediocre culture that surrounds the football team for the last decade.
I like Pry a lot but he has got to make changes. I will take the word of the old players in the podcast demanding change in the coaching staff. Maybe he can turn it around and gain some fans, like me, back. But my interest is dwindling at best. There's better things to do with my time. I sure as hell won't give money to fund another swing pass for a two yard loss.
I've said it several times now and will say it again... this fan base deserves better.
The program is losing a lot of people as fans.
It's only a proxy, but I've had more people cancel their memberships here over the last 8 weeks, by an order of magnitude, than at any other time of the site's existence.
8 weeks? Wonder what the 4 weeks before the season was for?
There are always a few people who cancel before the season, but this year was higher than normal. Though the lion's share began during the Vanderbilt game. I legit had 3 people cancel during halftime and it's been a consistent stream since then.
I wonder what TKP will look like when it's SEO parked, 😂.
I'll be here to the bitter end, I'll create a 2nd account just to argue with myself!
I'm definitely way less invested than I ever used to be. Maybe part of it is age and the added responsibility of having a child. Our schedules look different these days than when I was in college, or relatively fresh out of college. But the football product has just been absolutely horrible for the last decade. And showing no signs of improving. My wife laments that people don't have patience anymore (myself included) but it's more and more normal to see coaches come into impoverished football programs and get them turned around and playing pretty good football within 3 years. Often less. So when we're stumbling out of the gate as poorly as we have this year it's hard to take these coaches seriously and really have patience with them. We're basically the same team we were in 2022. It's not good. Unless we magically turn it around and win out in the ACC I don't see how these coaches can ever prove that they belong. I just don't see that happening. I'm not even sure I'm going to bother watching the Miami game. I can think of dozens of more enjoyable ways to spend my Friday evening than watching my Hokies get absolutely pummeled by a team that sucked just 2 years ago.
I was super fired up for this season. Most excited ive been in a while. And then we have 2 number zero's on the field at the most critical moment against Vandy. Same old fucking shit- kinda lowers your enthusiasm. Sloppy program, winnable game with 75% VT fans in attendance- egg laid.
Sloppy is it. Everything is so sloppy. Except the appearance, ironically.
Now I get to finish off this football weekend watching the Jags on Monday night football, it's awesome!
Right there with you. ( - a Cowboys fan)
Rough end to the football weekend for you my friend.
This is Pry's "most ludicrous crap I've ever heard" moment. He is losing the fans
Then i wonder what he does think?
Well to be fair, what most fans don't see and Pry won't say is that when Bowen calls a combo route against 1/4's coverage - perfect for down and distance- but St. Germaine fucking doesn't get deep enough for the pick concept and Drones doesn't see the second read... we punt. He's not going to kill St. Germaine and Drones in a presser. Now the alternative is "play calling" that is so vanilla and obvious to the fan, but get's blown up because the defenses watch film to. On your couch- 3rd and 8, let's throw it deep, duh... and when we run an RPO concept instead that would have easily gotten a first down if Malichai Thomas fucking blocked someone... well. That's the problem.
We've said this before with previous coaches: Play-calling is just half the battle. Good coaches get their players prepared to play smart, disciplined football. Our coaches might be drawing up the perfect plays but they can't get their players to execute those plays to save their lives. Are the players screwing up plays that should work on paper? Yeah, maybe. When players mess up a one-off play you chalk it up to inexperience, fatigue, youth, whatever. When it happens over and over and over with multiple players, you have to look at the coaching. There is an obvious disconnect there and the root cause is bad coaching.
I don't care if the play-calling is good. The players are horrendously inconsistent and they look like they just lack motivation or energy. That's still a coaching issue. You might have the perfect playbook, but if you can't get the players to execute the plays with a certain amount of consistency, your awesome plays are completely useless. That was the issue with Loeffler. His offense, particularly his passing structure, was lightyears better than anything we had under Stinespring. But he couldn't get the players to execute it effectively and we faltered. Often.
Agreed 100%- and that comes down to the simple fact (we can cherry pick all day) but overall 4 and 5 star players "execute" better than 2 star players and lower rated transfers. At this moment VT has several issues compounding themselves. Bowen is not elite, our linebackers aren't good enough, our DL is small and thin in terms of capable bodies, and Drones is not being put in a position to actually use the best room on the team- WR. It's a coaching and talent problem- not one or the other at this moment with VT. Take FSU- they have 100% a coaching problem. They have 4 and 5 stars, NFL draft picks all over the field. Norvell can't get them to execute any longer. Miami finally finds a coach and good QB and they are blowing people out with their 4 and 5 stars. Saban had both- great coaches and great players. VT has neither at this moment.
yeah, totally agree. I'm not suggesting that we don't have a talent problem - just that the coaching problem exacerbates the talent problem. Good coaching can mask talent deficits and get teams with mediocre talent to be competitive with more talented teams; even getting lucky to win against really talented teams every once in a while. Bad coaches can squander talent (FSU, as you mentioned). Bad coaches make mediocre talent look dreadful (VT).
We have a talent problem. It's not as bad as it was under Fuente but it's not good. It is being amplified by the coaching problem. Good coaches, good talent evaluators, good recruiters, often are the same folks. We just don't have them.
Been that way for a decade. Beamer's successors were supposed to improve upon the standard but have consistently failed to even live up to it. One common denominator is Whit Babcock, good ole boy.
I'm sure there are lots of common denominators
Yep- Dabo, Mack and Franklin shit talking every aspect of our program- constants. VT playing on ESPN and not playing well- constant. Both of those things have a huge impact on landing talent.
There are of course many factors. The shit talking is a factor for every program. Playing like shit on espn is attributable to program leadership.
Right, but Dabo and Franklin can talk shit about OSU and Bama or USCe and it doesn't seem to work. It works with us as we spin wheels in recruiting the past 10 years.
End of the day I just hope they pick one thing to focus on and actually find real success. Currently seems like they want to do everything and are doing everything poorly with occasional spurts of moderate success that gets used to rationalize the status quo
Cristobal is is an absolute shit-tier coach.
Lights out recruiter, but its easy to do so when you're throwing around Phil Knight's $$$$$$$$$$ at Oregon (they hated him there btw), and can always live off of the undisputed preseason national champion hype at scum. This is why the man keeps failing up.
Will recruiting be enough in Miami? Maybe, but when this year's first L comes (I'd absolutely love it to be us, but I hold no illusions that this game will be close)., they will all fall like a string of pearls. Again.
So if the play calling is sound- it is also the coaches responsibility to have the players ready to execute.
If the players can't execute certain plays, don't call that play. It's no one's fault but the coaches if they can't execute
Of course.. you are 100% correct. And when you hear cliches like "mind is tying up his feet" "needs to play faster" " wish he had that throw back" - it's execution. Now our issue at VT is like I said earlier- if Bowen called plays that this current group of OL, the way Drones is playing, WR's banged up, TE's not ACC level- he can call those "executable" plays all day long, they are going to get stuffed for minimal gain. It's a double edged sword. Why did Jay Gruden literally hate RG3? because he couldn't read a defense or go to a second read. He came from Art Briles 1 read offense. So Gruden was forced to call bullshit 1 read tree plays- which in the NFL he knew wouldn't work. Gruden wanted to call real plays, RG3 couldn't execute them- which is why he was out of the NFL at age 28.
Being at the Rutgers game this weekend really made me come to the conclusion that drones is in his head this year too. Not sure it's always the play, saw drones missing wide open receivers deep and intermediate all day just refusing to throw the ball with any type of anticipation and instead waiting until the receiver was covered or dumping off. From the non tv view and a more open periphery my man is just not seeing the field or way down in confidence and scared to make the throws, step into his front foot, or keep his eyes down field. According to the stats I've seen so far his average time to throw is actually up in comparison to last year despite how bad our o line gets beat. Seems like a guy scared to trust his protection so his eyes drift and a guy too scared to make the throw when it is open.
You are spot on. Drones looks like a freshman out there. It's really bad. It's almost odd that more people aren't calling it out. A guy beside me in the stands certainly was, LOL.
I have to wonder how much longer he can play this poorly before folks start clamoring for Pop.
With our OL, I cannot blame him for being scared to trust his protection. Parker Clements is going to end being the NCAA sack leader by season's end
(Pardon my inability to embed posts)
I honestly don't know how credible this person is, but I still think the thought is valid. I have been thinking for awhile that JMU has the best team in the state of VA. We have no excuses
https://x.com/Delfleppard2/status/1837889160486502664?t=gO6LoriACHPAIMlM...
VT can't use their model and be successful in a P4 league. Can't. Imagine what our team would look like with even more 2 star recruits? Imagine if whenever we won 8 games, our coach leaves- for ECU or similar program? They recruit to their league and pick off a soft ass team like UNC. VT needs to have a roster of high 3 and 4 star guys to compete in the ACC. We don't sneak up on Mack Brown- its a league game, he knows us. It's not a valid comparison. IF VT could win with 2 star recruits, Fuente would have done so.
I think that's a fair response. But it's still maddening to watch us sitting with losses to powerhouses Vandy and Rutgers and watch JMU lay a 70 burger on UNC on top of the continued success they've had through several coaching changes.
Oh it's 100% maddening looking at their latest class with a grand total of 1 3 star player in it. 15 2 stars, 1 zero star, 1 3 star player. Say what you want, VT can't win that way. JMU won big at the FCS level- thus they attract great coaches from that level and G5, and transfers have seen them on TV in the FCS playoffs, etc. Now they are in the sunbelt and their recruiting profile isn't much different. If we signed their classes, this board would demand everyone be fired and burn it down. They kicked UNCs ass for sure- so have we many times in ACC play. That doesn't mean that VT can find a G5 unkown coach, recruit 2 star players, and beat Clemson 70-52. Never happen. So why talk about it?
I mean I can't speak for others in this board, but for me the perspective helps 😅
Have we opined on this trash yet? Beamer was trying to clone Alabama for 30 years? The fuck? Chadwell is the man to lead VT back to glory? VT has a vision now to be Penn State light? What a piece of total shit and lies this is...
https://x.com/Project1918VPI/status/1838539850762400162
That was one of the dumbest and most deluded things I've ever skipped through
I mean we have PSUs former OC, DC, and strength and conditioning coaches, and really like to make the worst decisions in the 4th quarter so maybe? /s
Which is funny we went that route because they were always loaded with talent but always underachieved, in what was a very weak Big Ten outside the big 2 (and occasionally Michigan State). Never had a good offense, and they had some solid defenses, but the Big Ten is so bad at offense that the defenses are always inflated.
It's not surprising it's going so bad here with the Penn State B staff at a place with much less talent.
What I really wanted to do like Penn State is recruit.
Idk, some of it was definitely a reach (like the Bama comparison), but some of it I think was pretty astute. Tennessee ridding themselves of rot in their AD is certainly something I think we could learn from, and the point about how both Bama and Nebraska tried and failed to recreate success post-legend coaches by trying to hold on to the old ways and recreate the magic is particularly relevant to us I think.
It was total trash amateur hour revisionist garbage. But sure- Whit is a clown- said it many times. But I have been a season ticket holder 25 years. I have met Beamer, Fuente, Foster, Wiles others and chatted with them. I have toured the facilities, been to countless away and bowl games etc. Never once- not once did you get the impression , idea, evidence, anything related to Bear Bryant. Never. That was a made up lie. A lie period. Made up. Beamer crafted his own identity on special teams. Bryant wasn't known for that. Mike Shula wasn't known for that. Beamer's closest friends and confidants in the business were Bobby Ross, Ralph Friedgen, Joe Paterno- none with any Bama ties. I won't mention the other trash- JMU and Liberty dick riding nonsense. If we signed a class of 15 2 stars and 1 3 star ala the great JMU, this board would explode like it never has. VT is absolute shit right now trying to recover from the Fuente disaster, and dealing with NIL, revenue to compete issues that JMU and liberty fucking dream of. Only a lazy asshole with an axe to grind makes the comparison. JMU was a great FCS team- although the last 10 years you could argue underachieved at that level for what they were- and liberty is liberty- they will hire shady coaches, pay players and their parents with unlimited church money and win games against ODU. Fucking great. Throw a parade. They will never be even BYU's level. VT until recently was a better program for 25 years than BYU. So the lazy dick riding of Liberty and JMU tells you the article is trash. JMU beat Garder Webb by a touchdown a couple weeks ago. Crown them and they are "better" than VT. fucking joke.
Man...
.. now I'm just bummed. And for the first time, maybe ever, I don't even feel like we l have a chance against Miami. I feel like... Friday is going to be the same stuff we've been seeing for years now. Frustrating, head-scratching stuff. I'm kinda tapped out, I guess. 4 games in and my excitement is gone.
Same. The worst part is that we haven't even played a conference game yet and already a lot of us have completely lost whatever excitement might have existed in August. This team has ripped the joy out of the fans in less than 5 weeks. It's kind of impressive how down and out we are when, technically, we still have everything to play for. Weird.
It's not weird though - we have eyes. We all know what's going to happen on Friday. This is a staff and team that has done nothing to prove they can win.
Yeah that's my point. It's weird to think that we still have everything to play for. It certainly doesn't feel that way. That's how bad our team is. We have looked so terrible that we know we're cooked. Think back to 2010. We started the season 2-2 with a really bad loss to JMU (arguably a worse loss than either of our losses this year) and then rifled off 10 straight wins to finish the regular season ranked and spanked Fsu in the ACC championship game. Despite the fact 2010 was probably a worse start than this year we know this team has no freaking chance at winning out. That's impressive.
The JMU loss was an absolute shock at the time. Fast forward to today and we're perennially worried about losing to the ODUs and Marshalls of the world. Unthinkable 15 years ago. It's just sad, man.
Fact- we were a laughingstock at the time. People saying we let the Michigan/App State game off the hook, etc. embarrassing. Now JMU might be a 2 point favorite over VT this week if we played.