I want to be pissed. I want to be outraged over this result.
But I'm just apathetic. The team gave up early in the 3rd quarter and that pretty much says it all. They don't care, so why should we?
The inconsistency from the coaching staff is just routine at this point. One week the scheme looks great, the next it's a pile of shit. The more you follow you just realize they really don't know what they're doing, they just sometimes get it right and sometimes get it very wrong, and really don't know how to adjust when it's wrong. And don't even get me started on just how poorly we come out at halftime every game. -41 point differential in the 3rd this year when every other quarter is positive.
I'm just meh at this point. We've gone from ACC title aspirations to borderline bowl eligibility, and we look awful on the field. We probably have a lame duck coaching staff already, and that just sucks.
Comments
It just seemed like some really uninspired football today.
Well this doesn't look good. The turnover margin doubled down on the inevitable result.
On the other hand, while I didn't love any piece of this game, I expected to lose to Clemson anyway so shrug. Move onto next week and figure out which players we have.
The length of time it took to get this thread open and a comment in it says everything you need to know about the state of this program
My spirit is officially broken 💔
Womp womp...will stick to middling 🏀
Its completely expected.
Just as much as its expected that our coaches will make poor strategic decisions.
Pry isn't good...his Staff isn't good...and this Program is completely inconsequential.
Need to Run the ball?? Let's start our QB and RB who are both clearly too banged up to be effective.
Take Whit Babcock and John Ballein, load them into a cannon, aim it at the sun, and fire it.
Load 'em into Skipper lol
Came here to say this lol
Yeah but Skipper only fires when we score...
Sorry, had to.
No more Whit and Ballein would probably be a major score for this program though.
Start with Ballein. The rot stems from him, and work from there. Fire him into the sun
Everyone that was referred by him must go with him. It's an infection. Might lose some healthy tissue by scouring out the rot but it needs to happen.
Hard agree on this one. Anything clinging to the Beamer days needs to go. We've been mid longer than the streak ever lasted. Stop clinging to a bygone era and move on
So half the fan base? /s *Ducks*
Honestly I think the defense played a really good game, especially since they were out there for like 90% of the first half. The coverage busts were frustrating but there was a lot of effort.
The offense looked like they didnt give a shit from the very beginning. We must have had close to double digit drops. No emotion from the offense until schlee got in and even then we have drop, schlee miracle 7 yard scramble, drop schlee getting fucked by the refs short. Its not realistic to leave the defense on the field for nearly the entire forst half and not expect them to be fatigued or to press and lose eye discipline trying to compensate.
As I said, the only thing consistent about our program is the inconsistency. One week the defense looks good, the next they're absolute ass. One week the offense is firing on all cylinders, the next week it's like we are watching 2023 Iowa. There's no building on success. There's no progression and growth. It's like they are throwing shit at the wall and praying it sticks every week.
The defensive front played great today, which means they'll probably get caved in against Duke.
7 offensive points in garbage time. Backup QB leads the team in rushing with like 5 drives. Woof.
Also I hate that double pass to get us out of fg range when getting on the board would be a big momentum win
I said this in the game thread but honestly that's at least the 4th time Bowen has done that this season. We get into field goal range and immediately try a trick play that gets snuffed out for a massive loss and takes us out of field goal range and we can't recover
Too be fair the Clemson defender made a great play...if he's not there, Drones walks into the end zone with three linemen leading him.
Your point stands though.
Trick plays have been money for our red zone offense. I just don't like it at the 30 where negative plays take points off the board. I like them at the 20, which have been mostly successful this year.
it was just like the schlee run against BC preceding their 21 point barrage; and yes, he's done it several times.
as I posted yesterday in the game thread; if you are going to risk losing, do it running your best plays. there is a time and place to increase risk. when you have momentum; any momentum; is not it!
I hear ya, but how many dropped passes and other player execution problems where there where that wouldn't have even been an issue?
Agreed... but this is like the 4th time this year we got into fg range and did some weird stuff that took us out
The players on this team are just not good enough and the coaches cannot get their heads focused on the things that matter. Bad technique, bad penalties, drops, mental mistakes over and over. It just hurts to see our beloved team practice losing habits so often. Depressing stuff from a sporting perspective.
It is extremely frustrating to have recurring mental penalties on a team with so much "experience" on paper.
4 total carries for VT RBs. Against the #94 run defense. They probably will jump 20 spots in the rankings since we didn't bother to run anyone but a gimpy K Drones all game.
I really wish the reporters would hammer this at everyone they talk to. Just completely brain dead
comey looked good previously.... did they even give him a carry?
lol wtf
This is one of the most mind numbing stats I've ever read in my life.
I'm impressed with Pry's ability to serve a new flavor of sad every week.
Cautionary tale we have learned from this season - just because you spend big and retain your whole roster with NIL does not make those players good. We entrusted a very green coaching staff to bring in the right players, and paid way too much to keep a mediocre roster. Bet a lot of big NIL backers are feeling major buyers remorse.
As I've mentioned before, the whole AD needs to be gutted. We tanked the men's and women's basketball programs to bankroll this roster and scrape to 6-6. Unacceptable and someone needs to be held accountable for the poor decisions made by the coaching staff and administratively to fund this mess.
I think CFB fans and donors need to readjust expectations on NIL. College athletes will always be inconsistent relative to professional/major league athletes. There's just always an additional layer of uncertainty because they're immature and (on average) just less talented than the real pros.
Spend big? We're 'competitive' in the ACC, but not leading it. Rumors I've read/heard/put together put VT in the $8-9m range, top third of the ACC. FSU and Ole Miss are at ~$12m, OSU at $13m, Oregon off the charts.
Meh, if we let people go the complaints would be that we're cheap.
As fans, we've been saying for a while that we want to be like Clemson and invest as much as possible in football, even at the cost of our other programs. Well, we did that. IMO it was the right bet.
It's tough to analyze the NIL rationally given (a) the lack of transparency, and (b) just the uncertainty of outcomes (injuries, growth, etc)
This is it... Today's game was lost due to execution IMO (hence the NIL frustration). But when you zoom out and you look at the season, you flip the Vandy game, Miami game, and Syracuse games, (all three lost due to poor coaching decisions/planning) and all of a sudden this season, this staff, and this NIL spending, is so much easier to digest.
Okay, but like...you see how this is not sustainable, right? Something is going to give, and that something is VT fans' wallets after shelling out for nothing but more mediocrity. Like it or not, we did pay way too much to keep this roster, and somehow they fooled all of us into thinking they were better than this. And now, it doesn't even matter because of how many of them are banged up/checked out because who cares about playing well, I got the bag regardless. It just sucks all the way around.
Your first paragraph really gets to the heart of what has never sat well with me about NIL, and that is that the vast majority of these guys are going to be massively overpaid relative to their level of play. It puts the burden of risk on us the fans, and I don't know if you've noticed but it's kind of expensive to be alive nowadays anyway. I don't care what anyone says, that's just terrible and it won't last in a place like Blacksburg. And then it turns into a whole different conversation about the potentially devastating effects of falling even further behind...none of this is easy to digest.
I'll start here:
Labor is rarely paid based on the value provided; labor is paid based on how much others are willing to pay.
You know... we've been saying this about coaching salaries too for well over a decade now. And that hasn't slowed down yet at any school.
The 10% of fans funding 90% this operation are NOT struggling. They might be dissatisfied. They might demand change. They might stop paying. But it won't be because they are struggling with the cost of life; it will be because they want to see change.
I agree it's a tough conversation.
This may be so, but it doesn't change the fact that some guys on this roster aren't pulling their financial weight, nor do they have sufficient incentive to.
Just because the bubble has been inflating a while doesn't mean it's too big to burst.
As for the rest, great for them. Guess I'll do what I've always done, Pinky: sit here and bitch.
There are potentially a couple incentives - one is, if you're a competitive athlete, losing sucks ass, and people don't want to lose. Another is, if someone isn't competitive, at some point, another talented person will come in, and if they don't compete, the next guy will get to start and the guy who had been starting but not competing isn't going to keep his NIL funding (or his starting job, and then it would be hard to go to another school to get NIL funding as well). Third incentive is to play your ass off and demonstrate you're worth even MORE NIL funding, either at Tech or wherever else they're willing to pay.
Honestly, it seems like there's way more incentive to pull their financial weight than to not. Just my take.
Wish all this had been enough for Jennings...
Well, not sure what happened to him. I mean, even pros go through shit in their personal lives or something that messes with them mentally and they have a slump. Not saying that's what happened here, he may just not be as good as we hoped, or be great on the practice field and can't execute in games (so the coaches keep playing him, hoping it "clicks" for him in games). So hard to know without being on the field (practice and game) with him. As fans, all we know is he's not executing and it sucks.
We all know what happened to Jennings. He busted his knee up pretty good. He doesn't have that burst. He didn't want to retire after major knee surgery- since this was his last year of eligibility (LMFAO) so he's paying at like 75% and can't get open. I fault the coaches for playing him, honestly. He's not what he once was.
All I have read from the VT insiders is that our NIL is very competitive, with allusions to it being top 20-25 level. Which is frankly astonishing for VT, but it took a lot of cuts elsewhere and painful decisions to get that war chest. Totally agree it was the right call short term to go all in on football, but it's painfully obvious we don't have the right people leading the AD or football program.
When I say spent big to retain a mediocre roster, I don't mean we spent Oregon or Ohio State level. But we have a top 25 caliber NIL and don't have anywhere near a top 25 team. We overpaid big time for QB and WR, especially considering the depth we have at WR and some of our highest paid are our worst performing. In that regard, we overpaid big time for what we are seeing on the field. Bad evals, bad coaching, unmotivated players, whatever may be the issues. But this type of NIL funding isn't going to be sustainable with this level of poor performance.
Well Texas is paying 10 MILLION in NIL for their quarterback room. They will be in the playoffs. So how bad does VT want to compete?
So OSU spends 13 million a year for "players not as good as pros", "insconsistent" etc. Yeah this sport will continue to grow and flourish. lol
I had no idea we were so hobbled by such a broad swath of injury. Just about every key player had visible degradation of play due to injury except a couple defensive stars.
This team is confounding. I can't remember a VT team where the floor and the ceiling were seemed so far apart. It feels like we're playing blackjack every week.
I'll wait for the film review, but I'm hesitant to blame Bowen; seemed to me the plays were often drawn up fine and players just didn't make plays. Sure, a few calls we'd all like back, but the amount of missed throws, missed open receivers, and dropped passes was wild. Idk how much of that is coaching.
What a disappointing season.
I didn't watch this in the best setting analyze everything at the level I prefer, but I tend to agree. We left a lot of plays on field that were there, lost a few to dumb, avoidable penalties. I actually thought the defense fought pretty well, but we were too slow to realize an injured Drones wasn't our best option from the outset.
Tuten too. Should rested him and played Coney.
Yes unfortunately I don't think either player was healthy and it showed in a big way. We may have tied our hands behind our back starting both, which sucks. I think an early lead, and better execution on offense, maybe changes the result, but it's all what ifs now.
It's weird. It feels different than Fuente. Bowen started the season slow (but even then, still had some decent scoring games). He is capable of scheming and putting points on the board. Under Fuente, it felt like Cornelson did the same damn thing that didn't work, and occasionally lucked into having a great player. Our offense feels (at least to me) capable.
Our defense is frustrating. How can we have so many games where we do well the first half and then give up a crap ton of points in the second half (especially the third quarter)? At this point, I feel like DC is where we need to make a change.
I said before, if we could hold our opponents to 21 points or less (which doesn't seem unreasonable to me), we're a one loss team this year (well, except the GT game we scored 21, I'm still using their 6 points to give us the win). Hell, if we could hold teams to 28 points we're 7-3 right now with two more winnable games.
The Cornelson doing the same thing that does not work is what made me so apathetic that I stopped watching for like 2 years.
I am not there yet wit this staff, but I think change needs to be made.
As a Steelers fan, when Tomlin fired Matt Canada midseason, that was amazing and bought a lot of goodwill from my perspective.
I do not know if we need to fire someone(s) or not, but something needs to change to get this team out of its funk. The fact that we can look really good for spurts, but just not keep any kind of sustained consistency is making this harder and more frustrating to watch.
The offense has been pretty consistent. Before today, the fewest points we've scored was 21, and were averaging 30.7 ppg. We weren't scoring big, but generally scored at least 4 touchdowns per game. That's pretty consistent production.
Our defense allowing 21points in the 3rd quarter or 28 in the second half are some examples of pretty bad consistency. Are we just not deep enough and our starters are getting winded and backups can't make the stops?
" I said before, if we could hold our opponents to 21 points or less " yeah this doesn't work in 2024. And Clemson could have won yesterday with 8 points if they don't get a kick blocked. Our offense sucked. Sucked. And the defense sucked when it mattered of course. If Delane was mentally tough enough and strong enough to make an easy tackle on Clemson's QB - we would have stayed in the game. But he isnt mentally tough enough or strong enough.
Okay, based on what I said, it would still be our only loss of the season. And why do you say it can't be done in 2024? In another post, I pointed out that our defense is allowing an average of 24 ppg. That's not very far off 21. They just seem to fall apart at the worst times. (And yes, I know games like holding GT to 6 and Stanford to 7 help a lot.
Also, I added a different point of holding our opponents to 28 points. Just what exactly do you consider reasonable for our (or any) defense to hold opponents to?
All of the above. I did think the defense played well but being on the field so long you knew they could only hold out so much.
On top of the above anytime we did have a positive play it felt like a penalty called it back.
And drones has been inaccurate all year. Not sure what his deal is.
The defense didn't play that well they were giving up long runs early on but Clemson couldn't capitalize because Klubnik isn't that good.
Defense only gave up 167 yards on the ground on 46 attempts. That's 3.6 yards per carry. A couple big runs countered by a ton of stuffs. Clemson got 15 yards more in total offense than the season average against the Hokies defense. There was a 13 minute time of possession differential. As much as I think Marve should go, outside of the broken play where the safety saw sack and stopped running the defense did way better than I ever expected against the Tigers.
Today was squarely on the QB to Receiver issues. Clean up just half the drops you likely close the TOP to 7-8 minutes not including potentially scoring more than 7 garbage time points.
Except, the defense held them scoreless in the first half, and allowed 24 points in the second half. Why can our defense shut down just about everyone in the first half and fall apart in the second?
While I agree this was definitely an issue, I'll keep pointing to the massive disparity in our recent losses (and the 21 points allowed to BC in the 3rd quarter) between our first half and second half defensive play. If we'd allowed just 7 points per quarter in the second half, maybe it's tied at 14 at the end of the game.
Boy that was bad. We looked garbage.
Was having dinner with friends so thankful to miss this one. Just looking at the box score it seems like the 3rd quarter issue persists. Really frustrating that the only thing we can really count on with this team is a terrible 3rd quarter
3rd quarters will get after ya
I'm a little more forgiving about the defensive 'collapse' because they got no help from the offense for the entire first quarter. At one point I believe Clemson led the TOP battle 18 min to 3 min. The defense was gassed.
After first (and only) watch, I think this loss was on the WRs and QBs. So many missed opportunities.
The run game.
Tuten seemed banged up the whole game. You can argue they should've played coney, but the receivers were open, they just couldn't catch and drones kept throwing behind them.
The game plan was fine. The performance was not.
Fam! We suck.
Man this game sucked, but can we acknowledge just how amazing that one Clemson INT was? Like holy crap the ball looked like it just stuck to the back of his wrist!
Drones stinks now, schlee should have got the whole second half to settle in. Marching an already ineffective drones out in a knee brace the second half was so dumb when tuten was clearly not 100 either. Dumb decisions all around I don't care how much the players begged to play they were ineffective injured (or maybe drones is just ineffective in general now) and needed to be replaced with a glimmer of hope
Im not sure if it's because he's injured or his head wasn't there but at no point tonight did he look like a better QB than schlee
Side note, Jennings is terrible. Can't believe we're giving him any sort of NIL. His contributions in two seasons is something like 4 receptions and 36764357854 drops. And yes I realize he missed 98% of last year due to injury, so....
Didn't he start off having a fantastic year for us like 2 years ago before he got hurt?
He had 5 catches for 72 yards and two touchdowns against ODU last year; that's it before sitting out the season injured.
He has 7 catches for 164 yards and two touchdowns in 9 games this season. But he's been targeted 28 times with 17 drops, so you do the math......
Edit: he literally has butter for fingers lathered in WD-40 and KY Jelly
Edit: he literally has butter for fingers lathered in WD-40 and KY Jelly
With fish slime.
My wife and I were talking this past week about if we wanted to keep our level of donation up high enough to keep our Lot 5 parking pass and South End Zone Club seats. The losing is bad enough but it's really come down to how we lose, the year upon year of no positive changes and institutional refusal from Sands, to Whit to Hokie Club etc for 14 plus years to not take planning or growing the brand or making it look stupid, the academic logo!! So instead I emailed tonight that we will be dropping down to the lowest level of scholarship only fund and not renewing any football tickets at all.
Its hard to blame you. My college buddy and his family are hokie super fans and they were uncertain about whether they wanted to attend this game. They ended up attending but when you have generational hokie families waffling about whether or not they want to go to a game against *Clemson*, shit is beyond rotten
Honestly if I want to take a kid to a game or two it's easier to either find an away game like Miami or one off in Blacksburg. But between travel difficulties from Florida to Blacksburg, lack of decent hotels even willing to pay for the minimum stays it makes it hard to accept the rest.
This hits home so much. I live in Atlanta, so it's about a 7 hour travel day either way. I haven't been to a game since 2017 - not because I'm boycotting the team, but (as Steven Godfrey said on Bluesky yesterday) it takes a year of planning to make a trip to Blacksburg.
I'd love to go more often. And I'm not opposed to going because the team plays ugly. It's just so much effort. It's not even a problem you can throw money at and find an easy solution (unless you can fly private and have top-tier hotel status).
Dang...you know things are getting rough when even Fireman has had enough.
Idk if you give enough for them to care, but I really appreciate calling out Sands and the academic logo change.
I've heard mixed takes on how serious Sands is about football - I believe BAG reported (for lack of a better term) that Sands nixed the Fuente firing in 2020, but I also recall Guitarman taking about how Sands takes about the importance of football at employee meetings - whatever the case, if he thinks it's important, it's not obvious.
A bit of information from me here. For what it's worth, I was in the president's suite for the Rutgers game (a nice perk for some of the university service I do, and they're great parties). I was standing next to President Sands when Rutgers put the game away, having previously been chatting with his wife. I looked over at him and saw his jaw clench. It was a rare moment in which it was simple to read his face. I have interacted with President Sands a lot over the last year, he's a cool and calm guy. But I saw for an instant that he was really upset. He turned back to the small crowd around him and was as jovial as ever, encouraging everyone that we would "get them next week."
The donors around me (and there were a lot of old guard) were upset but not mad, they weren't pining for the Beamer days but they also weren't calling for Pry or Bowen's heads.
I also know of the administration's planning regarding NIL. I can't go into detail here but trust me when I say that all of the upper admin realizes the importance of football to the economy of the entire NRV and the effect it has on the morale at VT. If anyone thinks that the president, provost, and other administrators don't care about football or are too aloof about it, they are flat wrong. I'm literally in the room when these things are being discussed. As I said, some details have been told to me in confidence and I will not betray that confidence, but we are being as proactive as is possible. There are budgetary and legal constraints on what we're trying to do (or being essentially forced to by the changing landscape of NIL), but our leaders aren't stupid.
Thank you for the insider info, this is good to hear.
I agree. It's nice to hear that from a direct source.
Some have speculated on this site that the admin doesn't care, and I find that disturbing.
I think this is the key - I'm guilty of speculating that Sands doesn't care about football. I have 0 hard evidence either way. Guitarman says he does and Guitarman is better placed to know this than I am so I have to acknowledge that. It doesn't feel like football is being taken seriously to me
It's hard to not think football is being taken seriously when we have gutted funding to everything else to prop it back up.
This season has to be worrying for the school heads. This was supposed to be the year we were back to playing meaningful ball where we could actively use as a launching point for what we want to do and where we want to go. And moreso, it's supposed to be the year we showed to the SEC or Big Ten that we were well positioned to at least field a competitive team should the ACC dissolve and they were looking to get into the mid Atlantic region.
The season playing out like this is awful for the future of VT. This ship has to show signs of turning around and soon. And everyone in charge has to know it. There's potentially too much money on the line for it not to.
I appreciate your chiming in here.
I'm pretty convinced from listening to interviews and whatnot that Whit has been planning for the House settlement (or something similar) for a while now. I choose to believe that the budget surplus in the Athletic Department is evidence of this.
It's good to hear that Sands is aware of the gravity of VT football.
Hopefully cooler, better informed heads will prevail.
I think our institutions leaders do a great job at growing the university as a whole, its student body, the NOVA/DC connection is great. But for 20 plus years the future planning in terms of what shall we call urban planning has sucked, just throwing building wherever they can it seems and on the athletic side there was zero long term planning and now our sports teams are landlocked with no room to grow how we need to. Then we get to the thing that really makes me question are the leaders stupid. THIS TRAVESTY while household name institutions like Michigan and OSU and Miami are merging their academic and sports logos what do our leaders do? Spend tens or hundreds of thousands to create a SEPERATE LOGO why?
Yeah this really rubbed me the wrong way. Besides it just looking generally awful, the amount of money and resources spent on the rebrand was terrible. And considering the investment we put into it, it's unfortunately here to stay for a while.
Um that was millions not 10s of 1000s
So I have seen nothing showing it was millions, so I'm not going to claim it was.
I know some of the people that worked at the firm that did this. It out of Columbus Oh.
Cost of logo development was $25k, implementation across campus (replaci signs, etc.) cost about a million.
https://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Virginia-Tech-reveals-new-logo-447974...
Was ALL a waste of money, when the logo was perfectly fine.
RE the urban planning...what would have been you're approach? Buy more land to stretch the campus? And extend the utilities/infrastructure? Remember the proposed West Campus Road realignment that had over a $50mil price tag on it several years ago (that's prob in the $100mil range now...) And it wouldn't add land. Even if they did buy the land, it would take several years to construct anything...it's a process not an event. Especially with public funding and annual budget limits.
Where do we need to grow? Where are things deficient? How do truly urban campuses survive?
I think the divergent logos aligns with the tradition of UVA having different university and sports team logos. The state has always seemed to find a way to drive both in similar directions, whether it be with admissions, logos, conferences. And heaven forbid that the 95% of people aligned with VT have a separate logo than the what's on the front of the volleyball teams jerseys. Virginia Tech is not just known for the sports teams. We are ranked #19 among US Universities and #6 among public institutions.
https://news.vt.edu/articles/2024/09/cm-wsjrankings2025.html,.html
I've been very outspoken regarding the constant whining about "facilities". It's old and misguided. I guess by "room to grow" we mean 5 more "football only" buildings, a "women's basketball only" building like Kenny Brooks has etc. Maryland's football stadium is 1/3 full and dead going on 30 years. Lane is sold out and fans are among the most passionate. That's the most important "facility", no?? Where the games are played? But "Maryland has better facilities" ok . It's tired and lame. No matter how many facilities we build and update it will never be enough. We built the best indoor facility in CFB at the time and I don't remember some huge bump in recruiting? It's ridiculous
Then we should just build 5 more buildings/facilities just for football???? I mean you say it that "Maryland has better facilities" but they are 4-5 this year, so which is it? Just because you build it doesn't mean they will just automatically show up and the wins will pile up. Ask Oklahoma State, Florida State, Texas A&M... A knee jerk reaction about basketball facilities based in Kentucky! of all places, come on. They would gold plate anything basketball related, but that doesn't translate directly to wins. There's an entire student population on campus that I'm' sure can use a new lab or equipment, but let's drop $75 mil on a new facility for 14 players or so just so some can complain about only winning 17 games the next year.
i think you two are actually in agreement. facilities is overblown
Yes - I agree with him 100%. I'm more than over the complaining about our "facilities " anyone that has actually seen them doesn't say that.
Well you helped me drive the point home...the logo is a silly hill to die on, and not a big deal at the end of the day. The athletic department and 99% of fan apparel has the "normal" VT on it, so purchase on and wear proudly.
Yeah we really don't need any new facilities, just refine and renovate what we already have. Cassell really could use the renovation that was planned for it, and it's sad to have seen that shoved to the back burner if not completely shelved. If only because Tech could really use a good concert venue for touring bands.
I will say this. The one thing we desperately need to deal with is entry into Lane. The last few times I've been, and it doesn't look like it's gotten any better this year, the lines to get through security have been atrocious. It's not Battle at Bristol bad, but it's pretty darn close.
My two older boys are NCSU alum. We've been to a lot of games in Raleigh together, and the whole family enjoyed a weekend in Blacksburg for the Clemson game.
They were stunned at how bad the fan experience is at Lane. Getting into the stadium takes 25 minutes if you get there near game time. It's about a 3 minute wait at Carter-Finley.
To get a beer, you've got to commit to missing about half a quarter of football. At Carter-Finley, it takes just a touch longer than the walk to concessions and back.
And I won't go into the new seats that have been installed.
Going to a Tech game is an expensive proposition now-a-days, and for an extremely mediocre product. They have to fix the ancillary experiences of game day. I don't know what levers Whit has to pull, but he needs to find and pull them.
And the kicker is Carter-Finley isn't even that good of a setup. Both the upper and lower bowls of the stadium share the same concourse. The concessions there are literally dealing with twice as many fans as they do in Lane, and yet it is so much more streamlined than what we see at Tech.
Where C-F is different is that their concourses are way wider that VT's. They can fit a LOT more stuff into the same 100 linear yards of concourse space than we can. So I acknowledge that we have challenges that make things more difficult for us. But we need to solve those challenges before more folks decide the lines, the costs, the interminable time outs and the mediocre product aren't worth it any more.
I mean there are solutions to the issue, but that would require a renovation and concourse expansion that would likely cut into the Stadium Woods and we know that's never going to happen
I never got the obsession with Stadium Woods. VT is in the middle of Appalacia. There's wildlife and trees everywhere. I get why the City of Atlanta has laws and ordinances around tree removal. I don't get why it's an issue in Blacksburg.
It's full of 300+ year old white oaks.
Oh. Okay I get that.
I don't get why a tree being old is important/special.
Unless that specific area behind the stadium is the only area in the country in which old white oaks exist, I get it. But I would imagine there's plenty of other areas where 300 year old white oaks exist.
I mean its a precedent thing in my mind. I think there should be some significant red tape to it. Looking at what they do/did to live oaks and marsh land in South Carolina pretty much clean cutting all of it and filling it in for neighborhoods. Once they gave one easement dozens more followed and now its impossible to stop.
(I don't think fencing in the woods is accomplishing saving these trees though, that was dumb there are plenty of ways to keep foot traffic through the woods while accommodating trees.)
Old growth trees aren't like buildings that can simply be replaced in a few months after some construction. Replacing a 300 year old tree takes 300 years. The old growth trees provide carbon sequestration, shade lower temps, habit, water quality improvements, cultural value, etc. Yeah, other forests can do this, but if it's fully removed you get zero of this. And if it's attempted to be replaced, there's a gap in all of these things that takes time to get back up to speed. It's like the old saying, they don't build them like they used to anymore.
The VT "athletic campus/footprint" is maxed out. They had to build a soccer stadium in an academic building parking lot. They shoehorned in a softball field as well. If we need 3 more football only buildings, they will have to be away from the locker room/easy walking distance. Remember Beamer said it was a HUGE deal for the players to walk to rector... lmao- like 400 yards... big deal. So that's the rub... we literally can't build anymore arcades for football players close to the locker room.
I fully get all of that and I don't necessarily think they should be removed.
But Devil's Advocate, if land is/was needed, I don't see the harm in removing them because all of those things you listed off (while important), would no longer be needed for the intended use of what that land would be cleared for. Especially in such a small, condensed area; I don't see the removal of those trees negatively impacting the greater ecosystem of the immediate area.
Humans want to humanize everything, it's what sets us apart in most cases. But, while there's no doubt that a 300-year tree is cool, in my mind, it really is no different than what 5 trees would be in 60 years. If they're the only ones in existence, sure, they should stay. But if 300-year-old oaks are scattered all over the Blue Ridge, then I feel like that diminishes the importance of the ones behind Lane.
https://www.vt.edu/about/locations/buildings/old-growth-forest-stadium-woods.html
https://www.fs.usda.gov/managing-land/old-growth-forests
And it is way different than what 5 trees would be in 60 years. For the first decade+ there would be effectively NO trees. And no longer be needed? This is why there ARE protections on natural habitats. They are needed, play an important role, and provide numerous benefits to the ecosystem all around them. These aren't just scattered, they are grouped together. It's not just one here and one there. (Even then, those should be saved individually.)
A 300 year old oak tree is not an easy find.
Ask the Lorax.
I can't believe we're even debating this
Eh, gonna have to weigh in here as this hits too close to heart. It's exactly this mindset why there is an extreme issue with deforestation of the rainforests. Ecosystems are disrupted and lost and species are threatened and destroyed due to it.
Now there's also an amount of hyperbole here as there are no "300 year old white oaks" behind Lane but some are definitely 150+. With that said, East Coast forests (this includes random plots of trees) have a lifespan of 120-180 years, if healthy. Currently there is a white oak blight affecting all species of white oaks (post oak, chestnut oak, swamp chestnut oak, bur oak, etc.) so evaluation on a keep or cull basis may be a good idea especially when considering lifespan/lifecycle of said tree stand. Seeing as VPI has a very strong Forestry program and land conservationists on staff, I'm sure they have weighed in and given their expertise on expansion etc.
I'm all for capitalism and the athletic program being profitable and successful but also weary and cognizant of the environmental impact that may have...
Tech used to sell concessions in the stands. Why not bring that back? Have someone with hot dogs or Cokes walking up and down the stadium. That would cut the number of people heading for the concession stands.
They were actually selling water and cokes old school style during the Clemson game. First time I've seen that in years.
As many things staffing, they can't find the people to do it.
If only WiFi was reliable they could have online ordering to deliver to seats. Crazy concept s/
That's a technology problem, and we're not a technology school. /s
They got rid of cash transactions that put an end to that.
All major league parks have cashless vendors going up and down the aisle.
20 years ago Europe had portable card machines to bring to your table when eating out. We should be able to figure this out.
Getting into the stadium taking forever is 100% a result of outsourcing to Rhino. They don't have enough scanners, metal detectors, etc because they don't want to spend the additional resources to just let people in. When Tech was handling gate security there was rarely a 5 minute wait.
Nerf kids were off today so it was nothing but errands and doctors visits and the like I'll have a long form answer for you later tonight.
Totally get what you're saying Tech has some big challenges when it comes to campus and athletic facilities, and they can't just throw money at the problem without careful planning.
Cassell Coliseum is a great example of what's holding us back. It doesn't cut it for a Power 5 program with men's and women's basketball, women's volleyball, and men's wrestling, not to mention the broader Blacksburg community. It needs either a total rebuild or a serious overhaul to bring it up to P5 standards. Right now, there's a small dedicated practice space, cramped office areas for coaches, almost no media space, and nothing for fans beyond the basics. And it's not even set up to host events beyond Tech sports, which would bring in extra revenue. Lane Stadium needs some serious love too—better locker rooms, easier access points for crowds, modern concessions, safer seating, more premium seats, better stores, enclosed spaces, WiFi, and upgraded lighting. They once had plans for a big entrance pavilion around the South End Zone, which would be a great addition, but it seems to have stalled. Honestly, just getting it cleaned up, painted, and fixing the concrete would make a difference.
The campus itself also needs a better layout. I've heard from students and families that it's frustrating traveling between dorms, classrooms, and facilities. And the transportation routes don't help either. The outer-ring ag buildings look like they're barely used, which is wasted space when we need more on the main part of campus.
On the logo front, I get that tradition's important, but schools like Michigan, OSU, and Texas A&M have managed to merge academic and athletic brands, which has only strengthened their reach. Sports are what the general public sees most; having a single, unified brand could boost our visibility, donations, and interest.
Bottom line: VT needs a long-term strategy here. We've got to find ways to expand and improve facilities, balance budgets, and address student and fan needs. It's all about making sure VT has a campus and sports experience we can be proud of. long term because right now we are just falling farther and farther behind our peers.
I've literally never heard this. Maybe they changed the campus since I graduated 10 years ago, but when my friends would visit from other schools, they all had the opposite reaction.
Well we don't have a shitty monorail that's always broke so there is that
Totally agree. On campus I lived in Lee and the walk to classes on the Burruss side of the drill field was not onerous; yes-in winter it could get ta bit bracing with the wind. and yes in the spring it was wonderful view as you walked through Slusher Beach and folks playing football or frisbee on Prairie quad or the drill field. Off campus, I lived in Stonegate, then Terrace View. Even then when BT was in its infancy, there were two routes(Toms creek A and B ) that got me to campus quickly. And if I missed the bus ? It was just a 1-1.5 mile or so walk.
Yes getting from upstairs McBryde to animal Science was impossible to do on MWF classes with ten minute break between classes; but smart scheduling avoided that issue easily.(I usually did 9 or 10am first class; then 10 or 11; and then 2 or 3pm. And two classes on T/TH usually one mid morning and one mid afternoon. Allowed for naps/lunch/pickup b'ball games at War Memorial gym.
https://www.facilities.vt.edu/content/dam/facilities_vt_edu/master-plan/...
I present the FUTURE housing "Life Village" which will be out past the the Duck Pond.
All of this is based on assumptions that this isn't occurring. Maybe scour the site for the long term plan and Google it since it's readily available.
And there's a lot of other assumptions and things that aren't the case any longer in here, but you've made up your mind.
The campus is what it is. And the world of taking classes is constantly changing. Should they build an 80-year building when classes won't be held in person in the future? Ask all the office space leasors in the cities about this currently.
Personally, I love the VT campus. I tell people it's home all of the time. However, as it's apparent, ymmv.
As someone getting their masters online you can tell the students who received their undergrad or high school education online or non traditional route. While there is a lot of benefit to flexibility there is also a huge benefit to having students in class for at least some class time even more important when it comes to the hard sciences, or more hands on necessary programs. So yes the university should be building buildings that will be used in 80 years. Make them sustainable, lasting, flexible and durable.
Or retrofit the ones you have so there aren't empty buildings being eyed by Spirit Halloween.
There's still a need for in person learning, and in fact Tech kind of just found this out with the closure of the Math Emporium earlier this year. Online learning creates half baked students who know how to pass a test but regularly fail at diving into the critical thinking that you really need to cultivate in college. And its real easy to see this in the workplace when you can almost immediately pinpoint someone who came from a degree farm.
Apples and oranges. There is a need for in person learning, but not every job needs to be done in person, and in fact many jobs are better suited to being done remotely, especially in the software development industry.
Wait the Empo closed????????
And while comparing remote work to remote learning is apples to oranges the one that that is the same is that certain people excel in both environments.
Some of the smartest people I work with got most of their formal education online. Some of the dumbest people I work with did too and they can't grasp any critical thinking concept. It became/is a huge problem in Software Dev where "bootcamps" became popular...while they can give you a solid realistic foundation you actually have to apply it to something to know anything, now all the bootcamp cares about is your check and the number of checks they can get.
College also teaches life skills outside of job skills specific. How to manage conflict, how to meet new people, how to manage time, how to keep your room clean, how to use transportation, how to get food your parents aren't putting on your table every night, how to get clean laundry, etc. Now there certainly are other ways to gain those life's skills and experiences but for the people going to get that 4 year or beyond degree doing it all online while not having some of those experiences hurts.
"falling farther and farther behind our peers"- If you are talking about athletic facilities - 1. We will never catch up to schools with billions in endowments. They have to spend the money somewhere. 2. It's overrated. How many ipads do the players need in their lockers? How many pool tables do you need? How many video boards in lockers showing your home town do you need? There is already too much "noise" around the VT program that is not about winning games. VT should focus on that. Revolutionary weight training and nutrition helps you not blow 4th quarter leads. LED screens over your locker does not. Practicing inside and not losing that time due to weather helps you win games. Fancier bunting in said indoor facility does not.
I remember reading several years ago that VT/Blacksburg/Roanoke were god awful in terms of accessible medical services in the case a player got hurt, and that fact did hurt recruiting when you could instead go to a university that has access to top-notch medicine. Anecdotally I feel like it's crazy true for even the average person in the NRV, much less a "star athlete".
I wonder how true that is, how much it still might be affecting recruiting, and how hopeless it would be for that to ever change?
Thats why we lost Josh Sweat. Jimbo Fischer told him and his mom they would fix his knee better than we would. I think Carillion has really helped VT in this area though.
I worked for a company that paid a marketing firm millions to help us rebrand ourselves and they just took our old logo and turned it sideways.
I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but we/VT didn't invent stupid.
Thanks for this.
Am I wrong or did Tony Elliott just get a ranked win (on the road no less) before Pry did?
If Pry loses to Uva he maybe should be let go
I hate to be that guy..... but at this point I'd be willing to bet we lose that game by 2 scores.... Although losing by one score would be, well, so Pry.
Blowing a 28 half time lead to lose by 1 score
Fam! Defense stopped Clemson on 3 and 1, and then blocked their first field goal since 2016, and returned it for a score!
No, wait, we didn't win? No offense, again?
/s, of course
For some reason I find myself trying to compare Fuente's year three feeling to Pry's year three feeling and the outlook at both points. Maybe to see if I feel like Pry is worthy of another season or more.
With Fuente, we went 6-7, lost in the Military Bowl. It seemed like things were going south, if I recall correctly.
With Pry, it feels like they've stagnated? It's like one giant tease from the hot girl who just always plays with your head. The team plays well one week and shits the bed the next. We have better talent and I would surmise better recruiting / talent evaluators in the coaching ranks, but they suck at in game everything. We still could have a better record than last seasons, but overall the expectations for the season have certainly not been met.
I think I have more confidence at this point with Pry (and he is certainly way more likeable), than I did with Fu at this point, but maybe it's the gummy I just ate at 12:30 am after driving five hours. That confidence is not much however, and the apathy has set in. A better trajectory record wise at year three doesn't mean he will succeed. At the very least, he has the chance to make some staff changes which is a slight positive. As my girlfriend says, he might be the nicest horse at the glue factory.
It's not even the hot girl. It's the hot girl's friend.
I was (naively) pretty confident in Fuente after the 2018 season. Recruiting was still fine (by VT standards), I still had belief in Fuente due to what he did at Memphis, as well as his first two seasons at VT.
I'm willing to wait to see what staff changes are made this offseason. In part because i am curious to see what VT can/will do on the stuffing front. In part because I feel like VT needs stability, and that we signed up for a rebuild, and this is what a rebuild looks like. I think there is a bit of natural irrational optomism.
From a more practical standpoint - I don't think I want whit doing this next coaching search, and I don't want an interim AD doing the search either.
If you want some parallels to fuel irrational optimism... Frank started his coaching career 1-4 in 1-score games. By the end of his infamous '92 season, he was 6-14-2. James Franklin started out with 3 mediocre seasons before winning 11 games in three of the next four seasons.
FWIW I've got 8-17-2 for Beamer in one-score games through that 1992 season. That was also with the early sanctions and reduced scholarships.
Franklin had two mediocre seasons before the 10-win season streak.
I can see reasons for patience and pessimism.
With all due respect, that's an extremely low bar to clear.
Oh I totally agree. I was just musing late last night if we were in a better position that the Fu era.
We had a better roster when Beamer left to start the Fu era, but we're falling behind already in terms of support structure for the type of program we want to be. When Fuente left, we had a much worse roster, no recruiting pipeline, and marginally better support structure. We are definitely better off than the Fuente era.
I am not sure how much I blame the players for yesterday. By the end of the first half it was obvious that the fix was in. I wasn't expecting to beat Clemson, but it was impossible to beat Clemson and the refs. I have never seen a worse officiated game in my life. I saw textbook example of defensive pass interference on the Drones interception, the defender literally shoved the WR away so he could catch the ball, next to a ref no call. Later on textbook offensive pass interference when the Clemson WR shoved the defender to the ground so he could catch the ball. The committed so many holds it wasn't funny, but we were the only team called for holds. Later on, textbook block in the back as the play ends with the ref 10 feet away, no call. We weren't going to win.
Not sure what was up, but Drones for the most part only handed the ball to Tuten on plays he should have kept it. Tuten was a distraction only and that distraction was over by the second quarter and Clemson knew he wasn't getting the ball in a meaningful way.
We know have a QB controversy between an incumbent junior and a Senior Schlee. Schlee has outplayed Drones in two consectutive games. He has more offense yesterday in a quarter than Drones managed in 3.
Did you skip the Miami game lol?
It was the same refs as the Miami game, including the guy who overturned the Schlee dive. Again their was no way it was incontrovertible, but they overturned anyway. You could see the air under the left knee that they said was down. Must have been some tall grass in that spot.
His right knee was down and the ball clearly a yard short. Some of the other calls I will give you but they got the Schlee call right unfortunately.
LOL, tall grass?! I hope this was typed with a heavy slice of hyperbole.
They said it was the left knee not right knee. I can agree to disagree. They showed the replays on the big screen and based on those nothing incontrovertible.
Officiating was horrific. So many holds not called (on both sides, but predominantly Clemson), the blatant O/D pass interference, the running into the kicker that was clearly a flop, etc. etc.
That whole crew needs to be removed from officiating.
I think Drones has been playing injured most or all of the year. That came to a head last week when he couldn't go. Obviously wasn't ready to come back this week. Schlee is a capable backup and it's on the coaches for not getting him into the game until it was already over.
Coaches that play injured players are not serious about winning and should be fired. If an injured player is better than a healthy back up you are also a shitty coach. Either way.
It's not just that we keep losing but yesterday might be one of the most uninspired efforts I've seen out of VT in a very long time. The offense just gave up after halftime. In a one score game they just started mailing it in as if the end result was already decided
There is something absolutely rotten in the football program. With the way he went through the motions yesterday, I don't think Drones should play again this year. You absolutely cannot quit on your teammates like that, especially when you're wearing the Captain's C.
I honestly don't know what we do from here, but something has to change. I think Whit and Ballein absolutely need to go - there needs to be a total rebuild in Merryman and I think the rot starts there. But what do we do about Pry? I definitely think he gets another year. But it's painfully obvious he is in way over his head. Who would come work for him as assistants knowing he's likely a lame duck? And would we want to waste money on higher dollar assistants for one year vs just putting that toward the buyout? I just see it as all but completely inevitable that Pry doesn't work out at this point.
I look at Indiana and Cignetti and wonder wtf we were thinking letting a guy like that get out of VA from right under our noses. And he may actually not have any high profile suitors for a job this offseason, so would be ideal time to make a run. But knowing how reactive and slow VT is, we would never be that aggressive. I just think hanging on to Pry at this point is kicking the can down the road and setting us further behind. But nothing is truly going to change until we have new leadership in the AD office.
I've been thinking this a lot lately. Makes me sick that we had a guy like that in our back yard and let him get away. It's not like Whit is adverse to hiring promising head whistles from JMU...
Whit, forever playing 5D chess thought the Indiana play was to get more money from jmu.. not to actually take the job and win 11 games his first year at a totally shit football program
Cignetti had been coaching at the D2 and FCS level for nearly a decade before JMU hired him (but a P5 position coach prior to that). Then he coached JMU two years at the FCS level. When Pry was hired, Cig hadn't coached a single P5 game.
No way whit could've sold Cig to the fanbase/donors then.
I'm also in wait-and-see mode with Cignetti. So far, he's just recruited all his former JMU players to Indiana. That's not saying he can't recruit, but it's saying we have no idea if he'll be this good in year 3/4.
Don't look now, but Tony Elliott has UVA to the point where they are mentally tough enough to win in Pittsburgh, something VT can never do. I know the transitive property doesn't work, but to me that is significant. We get our asses kicked up and down in Heinz because we are fucking soft. UVA goes up there and beats a ranked Pitt team. They are mentally tougher than we are.
I hate to say it, but the way UVA is playing right now and considering it looks like some of our players have just checked out, I could see UVA beating us in Lane. Which might be exactly what we need to get some wheels in motion honestly.
The way each team is playing, they're going to run up the score on us
Meh. To think I actually had some faith in this team that they would show up and at least make a game of it. But the offense absolutely mailed it in yesterday.
Too meh to vent. Let's just skip to the off-season and see if there's any staff shake up.
We have a bad team. We have bad coaches. It's been this way for a decade. I don't know what's wrong or how to fix it but it's very clear that we are nowhere close to climbing out of this.
We can talk about money, nil, new coaches, new ad, Ballein, but VT had their moment under Beamer and I think we're all foolish to think we'll ever reach that level of success again in our lifetimes. College football is changing and VT is getting left behind along with most of the rest of the ACC. We made our bed and now we need to sleep in it. Iiwii.
Drones and schlee were hurt. If schlee was good to go, we would've sat drones. Since he wasn't, drones was forced to play and couldn't play like himself.
Tuten and Malachi were hurt. If Malachi was good to go then we would've sat tuten. Since he wasn't, tuten was forced to play and we built the play calling to protect him as much as we could.
The drops from our WRs were back breakers but in reality trying to build a good offensive game plan with two limited QBs and one very limited RB and another a true freshman RB that's had fumbling issues is near impossible.
We played a good game defensively. We kept it way closer than we should have. 4 sacks against a team that's given 8 up all year is damn good. If Mansoor gets that sack, if strong doesn't bite on that pump, it would've been a one score game or tied late into the fourth which isn't a bad place to be against the leader in the acc.
We need this break week to get healthy and I think we can finish strong. Duke and UVA aren't easy games but we should win both (although I'm pretty sure we'll be dogs against duke).
Definitely not the season we wanted especially with a veteran team by this game specifically isn't as bad as it seems given the circumstances.
It's November football. Every team is banged up. Half of Clemson's OL were backups.
Too many "if this or if that". You can make the same argument for Clemson. If they made the plays they bungled, the score could have been much worse.
The sad part to me is that we were never in the game yesterday. The scoreline was nothing more than an illusion.
Drones has looked just as ineffective out there when healthy. He can't carry this offense with his arm at all, and when he is a bit hampered in the run game he can't do anything. His regression and poor play has been one of the biggest disappointments this season. I think his lack of ability in the pass game has also lead to the WR's lack of confidence and checking out. Schlee should probably start for us the rest of the way, as the offense looks different with him in the game and we have the ability to be multidimensional.
If Drones were to injured to play, I doubt the game plan would have been to use him as a battering ram.
Not much of one. 11 carries for 13 yards.
Still more than Tuten.
I have emotionally divested from this team until changes are made, starting with Marve and Bowen.
Any word on Gabe Williams?
Marve drew up a perfect blitz when Miami had 4th and fucking 19... Lawson whiffed at cam wards shoulder. Make that stop get great field position, win the game. Yesterday he called a perfect blitz for delane . Delane used worse technique than a middle school corner and whiffed at Klubnick. When he had a second chance at the play he was as also too weak to bring Klubnick down. Clemson scored a pivotal TD. It's coaches and talent .
I for one am ready for a serious rework of the coaching staff. How many times do we have to see winnable games lost in the second half?
I'm thinking this may be a hot take here but I think emotions are at play here. I will continue to go back and reference the ACC predictions thread.
Right now, we are at 5-5, which is exactly where I thought we would be per my predictions but had us losing to BC and Clemson and winning GT and SYR. I have us winning our last two games but the injuries are hard to ignore. If we happen to get past our injuries to a large degree, I think we can win those two, finishing 7-5.
We all expected to lose to Clemson. We didn't get our asses kicked by them but more so by us and a little by the refs.
Last season, we were not a team losing by one score in all of our losses. We certainly were not a team that had leads in all of our one score losses. We got beat soundly. We didn't lose those games, we got beat.
What sucks is we could very easily be 8-2 right now, ranked, and still in the hunt for the ACCCG.
The coaches and players have given us our current record. They also gave us a scenario where we are one play away in a few of the one score losses and we are 8-2. And, everyone wound be much more happier and celebrating our improved success.
So, this season is an improvement. It's just not what we wanted from a W/L record and are for ever fucking pissed that we are a sliver away from being an ACCCG contender.
If we win out including our bowl, then I will remain consistent and check this season off as a win with the bitter understanding that we could have finished with a lot better W/L record.
Brent Pry: 'Disappointed' if Hokies do not make ACC title game
Just sayin, you might have thought 5-5 is right on schedule but from our coaches own words, they had their sights set much, much higher than where we are now.
Fully aware. I also believe Corey Moore was correct when he said we all should lower our expectations and see this season as a 6/7 win season. ACCCG was probably bullish at the time and has certainly proved to be true hindsight.
8-5 would be a great finish to the frustrating season.
7-5 with this roster and this schedule is a failure, and some people need to be let go.
Agreed, it's not a success, but it is an improvement, but not much of one.
It's pretty obvious on this board that we universally agree changes need to be made. We shall see what Pry decides to do after the regular season. I think if a change is made it will be after the regular season. Well, at least I'm hoping so.
I think if we finish the season strong with wins over Duke and UVA (possible? Certainly - likely? Debatable) Pry will have an argument (not a good one, IMO) for keeping the staff intact as is.
We don't really know what to expect with Pry. I think it is impossible to predict whether or not he will make any staff changes. The whole "This is Home" campaign is a double edged sword - it sounds nice and promoting a family atmosphere is commendable but when you try to build that kind of culture it becomes more difficult to fire people - firing people goes directly against the whole idea of "This is Home"
I'm jaded, of course, because for years we begged Beamer to fire Stinespring and then Fuente either couldn't or wouldn't send Cornelsen packing. Rumors abound about whether or not he even had the latitude to make that decision - which begs the question: even if Pry wanted to fire some of his staff, could he? Is it a head coach issue or is it an issue at a higher level within the AD? Without knowing for sure I just assume that it's simply unlikely that a VT football coach will fire any of his staff. It hasn't really happened since Dave Braine was the AD and told Beamer to fire his buddies in the mid 80s. (Stinespring wasn't fired, per se, but reassigned, making room to hire Loeffler, and Galen Scott technically resigned but would have been fired for cause)
I would be pleasantly surprised if Pry actually does fire Marve (or any coach, for that matter) in the off-season. I don't expect it to happen and if it does it'll be met with some mixed emotion from me. On the one hand, it'll be nice to know that Pry is able to do it. On the other hand, Pry also did hire a bunch of green coaches to begin with so his hiring record doesn't give me a ton of confidence that he's going to go out and get a certain upgrade at the position.
Time will tell - I think it is clear that Marve is in over his head. Pry may be as well. Jury is still out on Bowen. He has great games and then stinkers. The offense has shown more potential than the defense in the last couple of years, though. If you're going to replace a coach I think you start on defense and roll the dice with Bowen. Firing both coaches would be the highest risk proposition, IMO. We at least know what we're going to get with Bowen - slow start to the season, 30ppg with some huge games against some teams and one or two real stinkers in the middle of the season. Stick with that for now, find a DC who can get a stop when we really need one, and see if we can start turning some of those 1-score losses into wins.
Coaches that are serious - genuinely serious- about winning at the highest level fire underperforming coaches. Saban and Brian Kelly fire coaches after winning 10 games. Urban Meyer fires OCs if his offense isn't top 10. Their goal is to win national titles. I don't think VT/Brent Pry are serious about competing for championships. I think they are content with the military bowl. I honestly do. So at this point Pry is not focused on ACC championships but rather looking wrong for hiring these guys. So I doubt anything changes. If Pry fires Marve then I'm wrong and he's more serious about winning at the highest level than I thought.
New program motto - "This is Work"
Problem solved /s
Maybe we compromise with "Work From Home"
You could copy and paste this every year since 2012. I think most thought that we would be better than 7-5 this year with most of the team returning- that SHOULD- be an advantage now with players moving to different schools so frequently. But it wasn't. It been 12 years. Because of that, imo we will not compete for acc titles for the foreseeable future. Doing the same thing - including justifying losses and blaming refs- is the definition of insanity. IMHO VT football is done as a serious acc contender. I have adjusted my expectations.
Yeppers. I have adjusted mine too. I needed to due to my earlier emotional position and behavior this season.
For me, I am afraid CFB has passed VT by, along with a lot of other schools, and we will be a winning season team with 3-5 losses per season for a long long time.
Maybe every now and then we catch lightning in a bottle and have an Indiana type season, win the ACCCG and then get blown out in the playoffs, but not counting on that. I don't see that happening.
I guess I am the oddity. I am happy if we run a clean program and get to a bowl. I absolutely love it when playoffs or ACC championships come but I don't have to worry about that every year. I don't like the stress of if we drop two games the world is coming to an end (See BAMA and Georgia).
Part of my readjustment was to "accept" the glory days as exactly that. In the past. I am not overly bummed about not making it to the ACCCG this year and I think with today's landscape, your position is realistic and healthier.
But but but our entrance! /s
I had this game written down as a probable loss heading into the season, but what I did not expect was for this game to be the game that broke my resolve. Clemson was always going to be a probable loss, but there's losing and then there's... whatever the sweet fuck that was.
I didn't expect this to be the game that radicalized me, but here we are:
Replacing our coordinators won't be enough. We need to get serious about the future of football at Virginia Tech, and tell Whit to pack his shit. Period. And fast. We need a full clean sweep of Merryman at this point. Pull out all the weeds - root and stem - even if that means a few flowers get upended as collateral damage. It is time.
I cannot see around any solution short of this. Anything less is a half-measure that will bear no fruit, and we won't find that out until 2026 when we're still having all the same issues. I get that it's hard to replace a legendary coach, but Babcock and Ballein's experiments and attempts have failed catastrophically and we can't avert our eyes any longer. Frank has been gone ten years. We tried the "keep our defense but bring in an offensive guru" approach - it failed. We have now tried the "try to recreate Frank with a likable down home guy" and it's failing. If I I have to hear "yeah but it took Frank 6 years to get things going" one more time I'm going to step in front of a bus. We can't afford to let a staff learn on the job in 2024. It's not nineteen ninety fucking two anymore, boys.
Let's stop fuckin' around, shall we? It's time to make some phone calls.
💯
FSU does not appear to have any problems letting anyone go. Reports are their OC, DC, and WR coaches all let go today.
They are 1-9. I get that we're all disappointed but this is not apples to apples
Yeah 12-0 to 1-9 is easy the problem is every where
I know there is a lot of talk about the coaching staff, justifiably so, but there is one play that I will highlight the issues with players looking like they are not focused and prepared. It was minor and didn't cost the game, but when you see it, your head will hurt.
To be fair, Clemson didn't look the most focused either, but isn't it the coaches' job to get all of the players focused and prepared?
We seem to have settled into a groove where one week the O is prepared but the D isn't, and the next week the D is prepared but the O isn't. This makes it much harder to choose a course of action than at, say, FSU, where they are just bad through and through. Do you make changes due to inconsistency rather than straight nonperformance?
Any word on Drones/Tuten injuries? Glad we have a bye week!
Also, while I want Marve gone, it is going to be challenging to get a new DC hire who runs this defensive system. This is Bud Foster's system, and while his impact is significant, his coaching tree isn't huge. Finding an experienced DC who is going to run Pry's system (and Pry's defensive success and system are why he is here) is going to be a huge challenge. Will Pry be ok with the first fundamental changes in Virginia Tech's defensive system since Bud made changes and started using more quarters/less inverted cover 2 after the bowl loss to Cal in the early 2000s, which is also his baby?
Pry can lament this from his couch or his head coaching office at Buffalo if he doesn't start winning games at Virginia Tech. That's what he should be thinking about- Beating Syracuse and shit Rutgers as opposed to holding on to a scheme that is not helping you win games.
The now: Cheerleader1... is an ex-Qb1 and THEN an ex-Fs1...
He is also born of a massssssive, (offensive) record-book-smashing coaching family tree...
Eye'ma; jus', sayin'...
💯,
b.street
This is a interesting conundrum. Pry has said he keeps an updated and active list of coaches and coordinators that he would want to hire. I wonder who is on his DC coordinator list and who on that list would run this style of defense or whether his list includes coordinators that do not run gap schemes.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that this offseason will be make-or-break for Pry. With a 6-year contract, he will either be extended or fired in year 5. (If VT has a lame-duck coach in 2027, just fire the whole Athletic Dept into the sun!!!) And while we have seen some 1 year turnaround successes (e.g., Coach Lea and Vanderbilt 2024), it generally takes 2 years to reap the benefit of new offensive and/or defensive systems. So, I really think it's now or never for Pry.
The question becomes, what will Pry do this offseason to get himself a contract extension in 2026. I think he will need to replace both Bowen and Marve. I like TBo and he has the makings of becoming a good OC, but it's clear at this stage that he is bad at personnel talent evaluation, lacks consistency with game planning, bad at developing a complimentary passing scheme, and too slow to adjust when things are not working (both in game and across multiple games). I am not a Marve fan but his defenses have shown flashes of ability and are an overall improvement from the Hamilton defenses. Even so, he is a poor recruiter and there are too many issues with the LB play, tackling, blitzes that don't hit, and untimely play calling. Both Marve and Bowen really struggle with halftime adjustments; VT has been absolutely horrid in the 3rd quarter (like statistically worst in the P4 horrid).
And Pry's W/L records are ugly. We all know his record in 1-score games. Pry has not beat an ACC opponent with a winning conference record. Pry has not beat a P4 OOC opponent despite playing really mediocre and bad P4 teams. Pry has not beaten a top-25 ranked opponent except Tulane who was severely depleted and dropped out of the polls in the final ranking. And he is assured to have an overall sub .500 record at the end of this season. If he wins the last 2 more games, he'll be 17-19 overall, 11-12 in the ACC, and 0-5 in OOC P4.
If I'm Pry's agent, I'm telling him it's a really bad idea to gamble with Bowen and Marve in the 2nd half of his contract. And I'm further telling him that maintaining the status quo all but assures he will not get a contract renewal and likely will never have another chance at a HC position in the P4. For his own longevity, I'm telling Pry that he needs to make moves now.
In this day of modern collegiate football, Pry needs to be HC, GM/NIL manager, head recruiter, and the voice of the team. Despite his in-game management struggles, I think he can rise to a top-ACC level coach. He will need to learn in-game management, but that is a learnable skill (ask anyone that plays Madden or NCAA; maybe Pry should play 30 mins of Playstation every day over the summer months). Ultimately, Pry's HC success will require success at the coordinator positions.
I do think college HCs are too busy to be heavily involved in the intricacies of week-to-week game planning. And as GM, Pry needs to realize that although he sets the "VT identity," he needs to hire experienced coordinators to run their schemes that fall within that identity. And if that's not the same offense he's familiar with from Penn St or the defense he ran at Penn St or that Bud ran at VT for 2+ decades, then so be it. His job is to find the best OC and DC that VT can hire, not to find coordinators from his own limited experiences.
And if Pry is hellbent on running a gap scheme on defense, then he better hire and pay Bud Foster and put a Carilion Cardiologist on staff. If Bud still has the desire the coach (and put his lake time and grandkid time aside), there is not a better coach in the world to run that scheme. And while hiring Foster as DC is a pipe dream, I could see Foster scratching that itch one more time like Jerry Kill, Urban Meyer, Joe Gibbs, Jon Gruden, or Bill Parcells.
WADR- this famous "scheme" Pry runs doesn't work or win games. It worked for Bud Foster 15 years ago with dogs on the field like Hall, Adibi, and Jimmy Williams- yes it did. It worked for Pry with Micah Parsons. Cool. It's not fucking working at Virginia Tech. Which is where Pry currently coaches. It's not working. We can't close games, we can stop the run when we have to, we can't get off the field on 3rd downs. It's not working. Might want to fucking change things up? Maybe win some games?
Yup. Pry's pre-season target was ACCCG and we've missed that by a wide margin. Is he going to do something to fix this situation or double down on the current coaching staff composition that isn't cutting it?
Hoping he looks at his peers— a serious coach at a serious program, Norvell, just cleaned house. To be fair, FSU just had one of their worst seasons ever. But that's also what makes this such a critical juncture for Pry: make the smart, tough decisions before your team reaches complete dumpster fire status.
You aren't wrong, but I'm not throwing a parade for Norvell. He's panicking. He's going torched earth. He's doing what Brian Kelly did when he lost to Fuente. Firing you whole staff says- 1. You are terrible at hiring people and 2. you have no plan other than fire everyone. A more admiral position for Norvel would have been to replace some coaches when he was 9-1 if they truly weren't performing. Just my opinion.
Agreed. Norvell is firing people because he has no other choice if he wants to keep his job. We need to see Pry do that before things deteriorate to that point. Show some foresight and leadership.
yep, totally agree. Pry doesn't need to go "torched earth" and fire everyone, but he needs to acknowledge the defense has been piss-poor for 90% of his tenure and that something needs to change there if he wants to get better. Fire Marve, bring in a DC with some experience, and reset. That will show a) he's willing and able to make necessary changes and b) he's willing to do what it takes to build a winning team.
I have said this a million times but I thought the same thing of Fuente after 2018. If he was going to cut it as a HC he was going to have to make the tough decision to fire Cornelsen and hire someone who can understand football. Pry is at that same point now. If he's going to be HC material, he needs to fire Marve and find someone better. If he fails to do so, he will fail as a HC.
Right there with you. As tough as it will be for him, Pry needs to let Marve go. We understand what the ceiling for a Marve defense at VT looks like by now. We had the roster personnel to put a better defensive product on the field this year.
Some folks are advocating for Bowen to be fired too, but I think that's an overreaction. I've been largely impressed with Bowen's ability to scheme around this team's biggest weakness-- the O-line. Evergreen statement, but if we can upgrade the talent up front, I think we'll be just fine on O.
Taking everything into account with what we have seen, Budgets, etc. We can do better than Marve. At this point I honestly don't think we can do better than Bowen. Bowen is light years better than Corny- who would have scored a FG maybe with a back up QB playing at cuse.
At about the 3 week mark of this season I was fully on the "fire Bowen" bandwagon. His offenses take about a month to heat up and then they are fairly decent. He had a couple stinkers against GT and Clemson but I think he's shown more potential than Marve has. I think it is too risky to fire BOTH coordinators in one off-season (unless you're 1-9, lol) and Marve has been consistently bad over these 3 years so if I had to choose I'm firing him every time.
That said, I did think Bowen was a curious hire at the time and he's done little to make me think he's the savant that I think he needed to be to justify the hire in the first place. Defense is just our biggest problem right now so I think the smart move is to address one unit at a time. You know what you've got with Bowen. The offense will eventually put 30 ppg but it'll take a few weeks to get there and then there will be a couple of stinkers thrown in. But you can work with that. He's good for winning you at least 4 games. Go out and find a defense that can win you a bunch of ball games and then if, by then, Bowen is still doing these slow starts and mid-season stinkers you upgrade the OC position - that's probably at least 2-3 years down the line. The HOPE is that you fire Marve now, find a good DC who can prove that his defense can stop a team when it needs to by his second year and in that time Bowen continues to grow and is winning you 6-8 games rather than just 4.
I'm more or less OK with retaining Bowen IF VT hires a coach with OC and pass-scheme experience. He has not shown an ability to identify personnel strengths in practice, develop a passing scheme, or adjust at halftime. Getting another Brent Davis with QB coach experience would be ideal.
yeah, sure! I'm on board with adding support staff to Bowen's side of the ball to help him out. My only hesitation with that would be dipping into resources that could potentially be better utilized for bringing in defensive coaches who know wtf they're doing.
When we're talking about "cleaning house" or "firing" anybody I think the smart play is to do one side of the ball at a time. Clean house on the defensive side but leave Bowen and his team largely intact (adding folks wouldn't necessarily hurt but let's focus our resources on getting the defense corrected first) for now. He's the lesser of two evils at the moment so let him continue to learn and grow in the role as we fix the defense. Once the defense is sorted out we can re-evaluate the offense. If the determination at that time is that Bowen shouldn't be fired but needs some help then so be it. I've cooled considerably on the "fire Bowen" train of thought for now. I don't think he's the biggest problem. Marve, on the other hand, has got to go.
I don't think hiring Foster back as the DC is a great idea. I DO think hiring him as an analyst/less in your face role would be perfect. You still get his input and knowledge, you don't get the "desperately holding onto the past vibe". Alabama broke offensive records when they rehabilitated Steve Sarkisian as an "analyst". That role can be very impactful.
That's totally fair. But, if Pry is hellbent on a gap scheme, then he needs to hire Bud. Otherwise it's just a crappy replica.
I'm definitely on board with you that Pry needs to get out of his comfort zone when it comes to finding a DC and defensive scheme.
Bud's scheme worked extremely well for its time, but that time has passed. Hell, the cracks in that scheme started to show toward the end of the Beamer era when we would go up against some elite teams and got absolutely smacked (Stanford and Clemson stand out) when we had some great teams ourselves. Even if Bud walks through that door, I'm not convinced the scheme itself will work against the kind of offenses that are out there now. I mean we had a hell of a time defending the triple option, and now every team uses some form of the read.
I 100% agree. And I hope VT gets away from a gap-filling scheme. But, when it comes defensive coordinators that run that scheme, it goes Foster > > > Pry > > > Marve.
This is what I have been thinking a lot this season - who would Pry even be able to bring in to replace Marve? This is Pry's system which as you note is largely based on the fundamentals of Bud's system. Very unique defense with a very small coaching tree. It's like Paul Johnson's triple option on defense. You kind of have to ride or die with it, unfortunately. Unless Pry is willing to a) completely abandon this system (not likely) or b) has someone else he knows/trusts and can run this system much better than Marve.
I know there were hot rumors when Pry was hired that he was trying to bring Anthony Poindexter with him from PSU to be his DC. Then UVA got involved with him in their HC search, and Poindexter ultimately decided to stay at PSU. Could he be a target here? He would likely bolt to UVA as their HC the next go around in a heartbeat though. Looks like he's been a co-DC since 2017 at Purdue and then 2021 to present at PSU.
Does he have anyone else he knows/has worked with he trusts? Other than a long shot of Bud coming out of retirement to be Pry's DC for a few years, there's not many places to go here if he keeps his scheme. On offense, I would really, really love to see Pry hire Joe Moorhead as OC (likely he gets fired as HC of Akron) and keep Bowen on to be co-OC/TEs coach and continue to learn under his mentor. Think that would be a really strong move.
If the offense is good enough we don't need defense, right?
Did we ever get an injury update on Gabe Williams? You don't usually have the ambulance on the field for a leg injury so I know it was serious
You do when it's broken.
...dislocation.
St.Nikon help.
☦️,
b.street
Fun fact, with Castellanos being benched and leaving BC, we have only beaten one team on our schedule who is still starting the QB who lost to us.
We're a bad team. Pry hasn't beaten a good team since he's been HC. That's just the reality. I'd love to think that he can turn things around but.... It's just not looking good right now. This was a big year for him and his staff and they fell flat on their face. Hard. If it were me, I'd tell him he needs to make some changes or hit the road. But that's not what's going to happen. Pry might just be aware enough to realize that he's gotta do something but it's not likely to be enough. 2025 is going to be just as painful, if not more so. Then what? Does Whit get a third shot at hiring a football coach? As good as he's been for most of the other sports he's completely bungled the most important one. Where do we realistically go from here?
Cold Hard Facts.. Truth. Vandy is "meh"- they are scrappy. They are not great. Rutgers sucks. Cuse sucks. Miami's defense sucks and we couldn't tackle Cam Ward. They are a good team- not a championship type team. This was the most beatable Clemson team of the Dabo era. AND they didn't play great- but they of course covered the spread in Lane Stadium in front of a packed house. We are in no way shape or form a good football team/program.
Sigh
ouch
Just to keep things in perspective, what was the final score of the Clemson-Citadel game, again?
Just to keep things in perspective, how many TOTAL yards of offense did the Hokies have against Clemson?
Oh 47 less than the Citadel rushed for.
.
Just to keep things in perspective against Clemson.
Tuten was injured and only on the field as a decoy.
Prioleau was injured and could not play.
Thomas was injured and could not play.
We played the fourth string rb and a WR to get run yards.
A dying military academy with 2K students ran up and down the field on Clemson. Something we haven't done since Obama's first term. That's perspective.
That 4th string RB had 9 attempts for 96 yards against Syracuse. He had 0 carries in this game.
Syracuse's run defense was ranked about the same as Clemson's.
Not arguing we shouldn't have had more yards. We should never have played Tuten as a distraction for 3 quarters. That game should have been Schlee and Coney rather than a hurt Drones and Tuten. When they got their chance in the fourth quarter against Clemson they made good.