At this moment, put aside Pry's D style and go out and hire that most talented DC he can land with the expectation that the new DC will bring their signature style D with them. Take what roster he has and place them accordingly. Leverage portal as usual. Start recruiting HS players that fit his style. Start the next chapter of Bud Jr D domination
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That's where I'm at as well. If Pry wants to coach D, then do it himself, otherwise hire someone who has had excellent defenses and let them do what they want.
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Seeking a coach to run his signature system would limit the potential talent pool significantly. Get the best guy out there. Living in the Portal Era makes this an easier decision since you can retool your roster before the next season.
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His system ... no
the type of defense he wants? .... yes, we need to play complimentary football sp our defense needs to fit the overall game plan and style of play VT wants implement and it had to be one that VT can recruit for.
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I am not an 'actual football peep' so my answer may be ignorant...
I think Our defensive philosophy, system, and scheme has to match what we want to do on offense/special teams (aka complimentary ball) and has to match talent that we can reasonably land (so what are high schoolers in our recruiting radius, what concepts are similar bs completely different, what body types are we/can we recruiting at each position, etc)
If Pry believes that the Gap/Fill/Spill philosophy is the best way for us to win based on the guys we can expect to land, the teams we play, and the way the offense wants to play, then I'm here for it.
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These days, I'm not sure high schools produce enough fundamentally sound, willing tacklers who can fill and consistently make tackles in space for us to play that kind of defense. They produce guys who fly toward...and then often by...the legs/feet of the ball carrier. Even NFL teams struggle to find enough DB's who can consistently break down and wrap up. That's one thing that the really good NFL teams do consistently well (and the middling to bottom teams do not).
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Realistically, he needs someone who has a proven track record of running good defenses at the P5 or NFL level (guy who was a well respected coordinator, took a HC job that didn't work out kind of situation) and can get whatever he wants to run up and working fast.
Time is running out for Pry. This next hire has to hit and hit immediately.
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Time is running out for Pry. This next hire has to hit and hit immediately.
Agreed.
My preference ideal hire is a G5/FCS head whistle who used to be a DC. Give him $1.5m. He can be an AHC and DC (like Bama did when they hired Kane Wommack)
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I'm wondering how much influence Brent Davis had on our OL. If little, maybe he should get a shot. He was a very successful OC at previous stops Army, GaS, and VMI.
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Pry needs to find someone that doesn't put a guy built like a wide receiver in at inside linebacker and expect to fill gaps. I can't criticize Lawson as he tried very hard, but that was a round peg in a square hole.
The blitz schemes from marve were not effective, and would hope that the new coach could be better at this. Also, be able to make adjustments at halftime would be a plus for this team.
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Lawson probably could have been very good here, in the right role. We didn't have talent in other positions and it kept him out of that role. Much like Dax starting his career out of position.
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Lawson is built like a wide receiver and should have played wide receiver here. Mismanagement of his development as a football player is on Fuente and Co
Also he landed at UCF fwiw so everything we heard about "not a power conference player" wasn't reflected by reality.
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1) Personnel isn't suited to a scheme change. VT is at a level that they can recruit to Pry's scheme if the coaches can teach it and the players buy in. But, you can't recruit athletes and then fit them as square pegs into round holes. Pry has to find a stud WILL, a lockdown corner, and a safety. The only fits he found have both come from the portal (one dimensional edge rusher + a legit one gap defensive tackle who has enough lead in his pencil to not be washed out of the gaps.) Now both those pieces are gone.
2) If Pry makes a change in scheme, it will take time to turnover personnel from scratch. He doesn't have that time.
3) When the scheme change comes, it will be for a new head coach who is being given the time and resources to turnover the roster faster and more effectively than Pry has.
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in the portal era, do you think it's possbile to turn over the roster more quickly than what you're used to? Maybe a homerun hire could bring in a dozen or more day one starters that fit his scheme and get them ready to at least be competent on day one.
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Part of the challenge is our current roster size already. If we hire someone with a different scheme, even if you could turnover large chunks of a roster, it's probably kind of late for it, unless he brings players with him, and then we'd want him to be from a P2 position preferably.
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Bellichek could do it.
Other guy could probably do it a little faster than before but, there is still lots of competition with other teams trying to do the same.
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Regarding 1) do you think there are any younger players capable of developing to fill these roles? For example Woodson has been playing more and more at WILL. Do you think he can be the answer moving forward? Does Lovett have what it takes to be a lockdown corner? Has Reddish shown potential at safety?
Basically, do you think the coaches qre struggling more in recruiting or developing for this scheme?
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Woodson and Reddish are the two guys they had to keep this offseason. If either becomes anything less than at least borderline All-ACC by their third years (big one for Woodson in 25) this defense is in a lot of trouble.
I need to see more of defense. Lovett hasn't looked as good as his HS film, but Strong came out of nowhere to become a good college corner. I really am hopeful that Josh Clarke can be a dude at corner. He looked good in the spring.
I have no idea what they can do at DL unless Laws, Big Gerard, and Hanchuk were destroying things on scout team and JC thinks they can step right in. I didn't hear any chatter about them, so I have no idea if that is even possible. But, right now it is Gilliam, Copeland, and question marks.
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I would say he or Chris Ash make a lot of sense out of the names that have been thrown around. Poindexter is intriguing from a Virginia/recruiting relations aspect, but he's never called the defense before and has only been a co-DC. Not sure Pry can afford to screw this hire up again. He has to go with an experienced coordinator IMO.
Edit - Poindexter was actually the main DC at UCONN before PSU as co-DC with Pry. So he has called plays before. Is there enough experience there? Could be risky, but could be a very high reward candidate.
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Agree. I'm not really considering Ryan Walters since he's a 3-4 scheme guy. As French pointed out, we don't have the personnel and Pry doesn't have the time to undergo such a drastic schematic overhaul as that would entail. We have to find a base 4-3/4-2-5 guy that Pry can at least relate to philosophically.
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2) Fair play. Eye told TSL the same...
...a contract season is not the time.
⏳ ----> ⌛️
1) Now this one has me hung up a bit... (not that he would change-- most are 'marooned' (pardon the(ir) pun) in their system their way.
Tho'... we have no Ng1 or nose-to-nose or inside/outisde-eye-to-outside/inside-eye guy(s). (see: how much good m.Webb did for Bruuuuuuce and Co.) That seems to eliminate any 3o or even any odd sets: (fiddy-twos... et al...)
We do not have a legit Mike1. (Boomfield was underwhelming; and, then got his P.T. cut).
We do not have a set of Mike Johnson -esque ILb'ing twins. Such eliminates 44's.
Eye see no pure Strongside or Weakside (Sam, Will).
We need Cf1 or rangy Safety help like a dead man needs a coffin.
sooooooooooooo... that fits, what(s)???
'cuase it does not even fit his pet: Gap-fill--->spill (to free hitter) set.
====================================
3) addendum... do you buy that this D set is showing its age vs. the current basketball-on-grass, era?
😰,
b.street
p.s. '25 looks downright scary down in the dirt... tho; there Eye goes again... always putting the cart in front of the, horse...
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**Fair play. I told TSL the same thing...
...a contract year isn't the right time.
⏳ ----> ⌛️**
1) Now, this part confuses me a bit... (Not that things would change—most players are 'stuck' in their system, doing things their way).
However... we don't have a player who can play Ng1 (a position on the defensive line) or a player who can match up one-on-one in both inside and outside situations (similar to how much m. Webb helped Bruce and the team). This seems to rule out any 3-4 defensive or other odd-numbered formations (like a 52 defense, etc.).
We don't have a true Mike linebacker (the leader of the defense, usually in the middle). Boomfield didn't impress, and then his playing time was reduced.
We also don't have a set of inside linebackers like Mike Johnson and his twin brother, which would fit a 44 defense.
It looks like we don't have any players that fit the pure Strongside or Weakside linebacker roles (like Sam or Will).
We need a true Cover-1 safety or someone with range, like a dead man needs a coffin.
So... with all this, what does this defense fit?
Because it doesn't even match his favorite approach: the gap-fill to spill (free hitter) concept.
---
**3) Addendum... do you think this defensive set is starting to show its age against the current "basketball-on-grass" era of football?**
😰,
b.street
P.S. The 2025 team looks really intimidating in the trenches... though, there I go again... always getting ahead of myself.
---
This message is filled with football jargon and metaphor, referencing defensive schemes, players, and tactics. The speaker is reflecting on how the current defense seems outdated or mismatched for modern football, especially in the context of the way offenses are played now (fast-paced, spread offenses). They also seem to be critical of certain players' performances and are expressing concerns about how the team will adapt to these challenges.
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Tho' Eye can 'hear' the grindstone puttin' in sparky work on those pitchfork tips... too. (So, although want to answer a 'yes'... I gotta say I doubt it... which is social needia 2day=everything sad).
💯
b.street
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From Wikipedia: 64yo from eastern Ohio. Initially ran a 4-3 or 4-2-5 defense in 2016 Iowa State Cyclones football team, later known for its 3–3–5 defense from 2017 team that upset 3rd-ranked Oklahoma and 4th-ranked TCU, ending the season leading the Big 12 in tackles for loss. 2017 Broyles Award finalist. In 2022, the Iowa State defense led the conference in total defense, scoring defense, passing defense, and rushing defense. 2022 Broyles Award nominee.
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Somewhat random, but is Penn State still using the same scheme that Pry used? If so, that would mean they're on their second post-Pry DC and they both either already ran the scheme or adopted to it.
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I will say for scheme though....Pry's first year was the year that I thought Dax looked like what he was supposed to look like all along. I'm sure part of it had to do with his growth as a player and man but still, he looked legit that year.
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In the first year, you could see signs that they were being coached differently. There was more pursuit. More bodies were on the ball carrier. The BC game was pretty darn nice. Then the dearth of talent started to shine through.
I think Pry was doing the best he could with the bodies in the room that year. Dax was the last real linebacker (artis was there... I'd still love to know what was holding him back) we had in the middle. It's been downhill ever since. I think that shows that more Marve control, and a lack of the correct players were one of the big issues with our D. Pry has a chance to fix the coach problem quickly, and could fix the talent problem quickly via portal. If we have to wait on development, I don't think Pry has enough leash.
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Sure I've got 0 connection to the program and no inside information but I've got 30+ years experience playing connect the dots. From Applebees kids menus to travel books; dogs, chickens, airplanes, some with even 100+ dots. Trust me these dots connect.
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Oh I'm looking for the right message board chatter. Not the 'Well, they worked together before so it would make sense.'
No, I want the 'my in-laws brothers coworker knows the janitor in the football building and he says he overheard Pry interviewing Dex on a zoom call' rumors. That's the juice I want.
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Unless there is another candidate in the CFP or you think Quinn is getting a real tryout in the bowl, it pretty much has to be Dex. If he bumps PP (which seems logical), then there is still a hole to be filled. So how does the rest of the defensive staff play out?
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The problem never has been the system. With good personnel and a good play called it was the best defense in the Big10 for half a decade. The problem was a bad play caller, low upside too big to stay at safety safeties who didn't want to fit the gaps, and awful safety teaching. Given that the clock is short even with the portal, you ride the horse that brought you. Scheme isn't the problem when everyone is in the right place and the boundary safety misses a tackle right in a defined alley.
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Comments
At this moment, put aside Pry's D style and go out and hire that most talented DC he can land with the expectation that the new DC will bring their signature style D with them. Take what roster he has and place them accordingly. Leverage portal as usual. Start recruiting HS players that fit his style. Start the next chapter of Bud Jr D domination
That's where I'm at as well. If Pry wants to coach D, then do it himself, otherwise hire someone who has had excellent defenses and let them do what they want.
Seeking a coach to run his signature system would limit the potential talent pool significantly. Get the best guy out there. Living in the Portal Era makes this an easier decision since you can retool your roster before the next season.
Hire a good DC. Let him build something new.
The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. We've tried to work the current system for long enough.
His system ... no
the type of defense he wants? .... yes, we need to play complimentary football sp our defense needs to fit the overall game plan and style of play VT wants implement and it had to be one that VT can recruit for.
Or, one that at least stops mediocre (and good) teams from scoring at will.
Change the system to fit the game, not the game to fit the system.
I am not an 'actual football peep' so my answer may be ignorant...
I think Our defensive philosophy, system, and scheme has to match what we want to do on offense/special teams (aka complimentary ball) and has to match talent that we can reasonably land (so what are high schoolers in our recruiting radius, what concepts are similar bs completely different, what body types are we/can we recruiting at each position, etc)
If Pry believes that the Gap/Fill/Spill philosophy is the best way for us to win based on the guys we can expect to land, the teams we play, and the way the offense wants to play, then I'm here for it.
I'll believe it if/when I see it, and so far, well...
my uninformed $.02
These days, I'm not sure high schools produce enough fundamentally sound, willing tacklers who can fill and consistently make tackles in space for us to play that kind of defense. They produce guys who fly toward...and then often by...the legs/feet of the ball carrier. Even NFL teams struggle to find enough DB's who can consistently break down and wrap up. That's one thing that the really good NFL teams do consistently well (and the middling to bottom teams do not).
Goto the rugby team and get a couple aggressive and very fit guys that like to tackle people.
could do worse...probably have done worse
edit: maybe get a rugby coach to come in and teach tackling or coach linebackers
Realistically, he needs someone who has a proven track record of running good defenses at the P5 or NFL level (guy who was a well respected coordinator, took a HC job that didn't work out kind of situation) and can get whatever he wants to run up and working fast.
Time is running out for Pry. This next hire has to hit and hit immediately.
Pry needs a homerun here. Break out some $$$.
Agreed.
My
preferenceideal hire is a G5/FCS head whistle who used to be a DC. Give him $1.5m. He can be an AHC and DC (like Bama did when they hired Kane Wommack)I'm wondering how much influence Brent Davis had on our OL. If little, maybe he should get a shot. He was a very successful OC at previous stops Army, GaS, and VMI.
Pry needs to find someone that doesn't put a guy built like a wide receiver in at inside linebacker and expect to fill gaps. I can't criticize Lawson as he tried very hard, but that was a round peg in a square hole.
The blitz schemes from marve were not effective, and would hope that the new coach could be better at this. Also, be able to make adjustments at halftime would be a plus for this team.
Yep. Everybody on here criticizing Lawson will be eating crow when he's a solid NFL player
Lawson probably could have been very good here, in the right role. We didn't have talent in other positions and it kept him out of that role. Much like Dax starting his career out of position.
Lawson is built like a wide receiver and should have played wide receiver here. Mismanagement of his development as a football player is on Fuente and Co
Also he landed at UCF fwiw so everything we heard about "not a power conference player" wasn't reflected by reality.
Someone to implement a top 25 defense, whatever the scheme, period!
1) Personnel isn't suited to a scheme change. VT is at a level that they can recruit to Pry's scheme if the coaches can teach it and the players buy in. But, you can't recruit athletes and then fit them as square pegs into round holes. Pry has to find a stud WILL, a lockdown corner, and a safety. The only fits he found have both come from the portal (one dimensional edge rusher + a legit one gap defensive tackle who has enough lead in his pencil to not be washed out of the gaps.) Now both those pieces are gone.
2) If Pry makes a change in scheme, it will take time to turnover personnel from scratch. He doesn't have that time.
3) When the scheme change comes, it will be for a new head coach who is being given the time and resources to turnover the roster faster and more effectively than Pry has.
these are all valid points
my question is this
in the portal era, do you think it's possbile to turn over the roster more quickly than what you're used to? Maybe a homerun hire could bring in a dozen or more day one starters that fit his scheme and get them ready to at least be competent on day one.
I think "home run hire" is the key here. It has to be a big name that gets recruits excited to come to VT if you want to do it in a hurry.
Part of the challenge is our current roster size already. If we hire someone with a different scheme, even if you could turnover large chunks of a roster, it's probably kind of late for it, unless he brings players with him, and then we'd want him to be from a P2 position preferably.
Bellichek could do it.
Other guy could probably do it a little faster than before but, there is still lots of competition with other teams trying to do the same.
Regarding 1) do you think there are any younger players capable of developing to fill these roles? For example Woodson has been playing more and more at WILL. Do you think he can be the answer moving forward? Does Lovett have what it takes to be a lockdown corner? Has Reddish shown potential at safety?
Basically, do you think the coaches qre struggling more in recruiting or developing for this scheme?
Woodson and Reddish are the two guys they had to keep this offseason. If either becomes anything less than at least borderline All-ACC by their third years (big one for Woodson in 25) this defense is in a lot of trouble.
I need to see more of defense. Lovett hasn't looked as good as his HS film, but Strong came out of nowhere to become a good college corner. I really am hopeful that Josh Clarke can be a dude at corner. He looked good in the spring.
I have no idea what they can do at DL unless Laws, Big Gerard, and Hanchuk were destroying things on scout team and JC thinks they can step right in. I didn't hear any chatter about them, so I have no idea if that is even possible. But, right now it is Gilliam, Copeland, and question marks.
Sooo we're hiring Bob shoop?
I would say he or Chris Ash make a lot of sense out of the names that have been thrown around. Poindexter is intriguing from a Virginia/recruiting relations aspect, but he's never called the defense before and has only been a co-DC. Not sure Pry can afford to screw this hire up again. He has to go with an experienced coordinator IMO.
Edit - Poindexter was actually the main DC at UCONN before PSU as co-DC with Pry. So he has called plays before. Is there enough experience there? Could be risky, but could be a very high reward candidate.
Chris Ash would be a big get. OSU DC who left to be an HC.
Agree. I'm not really considering Ryan Walters since he's a 3-4 scheme guy. As French pointed out, we don't have the personnel and Pry doesn't have the time to undergo such a drastic schematic overhaul as that would entail. We have to find a base 4-3/4-2-5 guy that Pry can at least relate to philosophically.
2) Fair play. Eye told TSL the same...
...a contract season is not the time.
⏳ ----> ⌛️
1) Now this one has me hung up a bit... (not that he would change-- most are 'marooned' (pardon the(ir) pun) in their system their way.
Tho'... we have no Ng1 or nose-to-nose or inside/outisde-eye-to-outside/inside-eye guy(s). (see: how much good m.Webb did for Bruuuuuuce and Co.) That seems to eliminate any 3o or even any odd sets: (fiddy-twos... et al...)
We do not have a legit Mike1. (Boomfield was underwhelming; and, then got his P.T. cut).
We do not have a set of Mike Johnson -esque ILb'ing twins. Such eliminates 44's.
Eye see no pure Strongside or Weakside (Sam, Will).
We need Cf1 or rangy Safety help like a dead man needs a coffin.
sooooooooooooo... that fits, what(s)???
'cuase it does not even fit his pet: Gap-fill--->spill (to free hitter) set.
====================================
3) addendum... do you buy that this D set is showing its age vs. the current basketball-on-grass, era?
😰,
b.street
p.s. '25 looks downright scary down in the dirt... tho; there Eye goes again... always putting the cart in front of the, horse...
Here's a translation from chatgpt:
---
**Fair play. I told TSL the same thing...
...a contract year isn't the right time.
⏳ ----> ⌛️**
1) Now, this part confuses me a bit... (Not that things would change—most players are 'stuck' in their system, doing things their way).
However... we don't have a player who can play Ng1 (a position on the defensive line) or a player who can match up one-on-one in both inside and outside situations (similar to how much m. Webb helped Bruce and the team). This seems to rule out any 3-4 defensive or other odd-numbered formations (like a 52 defense, etc.).
We don't have a true Mike linebacker (the leader of the defense, usually in the middle). Boomfield didn't impress, and then his playing time was reduced.
We also don't have a set of inside linebackers like Mike Johnson and his twin brother, which would fit a 44 defense.
It looks like we don't have any players that fit the pure Strongside or Weakside linebacker roles (like Sam or Will).
We need a true Cover-1 safety or someone with range, like a dead man needs a coffin.
So... with all this, what does this defense fit?
Because it doesn't even match his favorite approach: the gap-fill to spill (free hitter) concept.
---
**3) Addendum... do you think this defensive set is starting to show its age against the current "basketball-on-grass" era of football?**
😰,
b.street
P.S. The 2025 team looks really intimidating in the trenches... though, there I go again... always getting ahead of myself.
---
This message is filled with football jargon and metaphor, referencing defensive schemes, players, and tactics. The speaker is reflecting on how the current defense seems outdated or mismatched for modern football, especially in the context of the way offenses are played now (fast-paced, spread offenses). They also seem to be critical of certain players' performances and are expressing concerns about how the team will adapt to these challenges.
Regarding #2 - do you think if Pry makes a really splashy hire it buys him extra time to turn over the roster on D?
welllllllll... I'd like to say it could not hurt.
Tho' Eye can 'hear' the grindstone puttin' in sparky work on those pitchfork tips... too. (So, although want to answer a 'yes'... I gotta say I doubt it... which is social needia 2day=everything sad).
💯
b.street
Perplexity says John Heacock (Iowa State DC) runs the gap film and spill defense.
His defenses at ISU have been incredible. He's coaching up 3-stars. Would be a huge get IMO.
K.
This is a real answer.
Interesting... Eye am not any familiar with him at all. Curious though... possibly, very.
+many,
b.street
From Wikipedia: 64yo from eastern Ohio. Initially ran a 4-3 or 4-2-5 defense in 2016 Iowa State Cyclones football team, later known for its 3–3–5 defense from 2017 team that upset 3rd-ranked Oklahoma and 4th-ranked TCU, ending the season leading the Big 12 in tackles for loss. 2017 Broyles Award finalist. In 2022, the Iowa State defense led the conference in total defense, scoring defense, passing defense, and rushing defense. 2022 Broyles Award nominee.
Apart from the age and how long we'd have him, I love that resume. But also related to that age - maybe he doesn't want to move any more...?
Somewhat random, but is Penn State still using the same scheme that Pry used? If so, that would mean they're on their second post-Pry DC and they both either already ran the scheme or adopted to it.
On offensive line, go get Jake Grove and Sergio Render to coach the line. Can you imagine the nasty streak any guys learning from them would have?
TL;DR
I will say for scheme though....Pry's first year was the year that I thought Dax looked like what he was supposed to look like all along. I'm sure part of it had to do with his growth as a player and man but still, he looked legit that year.
In the first year, you could see signs that they were being coached differently. There was more pursuit. More bodies were on the ball carrier. The BC game was pretty darn nice. Then the dearth of talent started to shine through.
I think Pry was doing the best he could with the bodies in the room that year. Dax was the last real linebacker (artis was there... I'd still love to know what was holding him back) we had in the middle. It's been downhill ever since. I think that shows that more Marve control, and a lack of the correct players were one of the big issues with our D. Pry has a chance to fix the coach problem quickly, and could fix the talent problem quickly via portal. If we have to wait on development, I don't think Pry has enough leash.
So the longer this drags I wonder if the Poindexter rumors are true
Are there actual rumors, or just people like us connecting dots on message boards?
The latter
Sure I've got 0 connection to the program and no inside information but I've got 30+ years experience playing connect the dots. From Applebees kids menus to travel books; dogs, chickens, airplanes, some with even 100+ dots. Trust me these dots connect.
😂😂
/s
Whoa whoa whoa, are you implying that message board chatter is not the same as irrefutable evidence?
Oh I'm looking for the right message board chatter. Not the 'Well, they worked together before so it would make sense.'
No, I want the 'my in-laws brothers coworker knows the janitor in the football building and he says he overheard Pry interviewing Dex on a zoom call' rumors. That's the juice I want.
Unless there is another candidate in the CFP or you think Quinn is getting a real tryout in the bowl, it pretty much has to be Dex. If he bumps PP (which seems logical), then there is still a hole to be filled. So how does the rest of the defensive staff play out?
The problem never has been the system. With good personnel and a good play called it was the best defense in the Big10 for half a decade. The problem was a bad play caller, low upside too big to stay at safety safeties who didn't want to fit the gaps, and awful safety teaching. Given that the clock is short even with the portal, you ride the horse that brought you. Scheme isn't the problem when everyone is in the right place and the boundary safety misses a tackle right in a defined alley.