This is really sad: https://wtop.com/arlington/2025/01/small-aircraft-crashes-into-potomac-r....
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This is really sad: https://wtop.com/arlington/2025/01/small-aircraft-crashes-into-potomac-r....
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Obviously the timing of things is much different in the air and at those speeds as well. After reading the ATC section, did the heli think the jet had already passed by?
It appears that the helicopter pilot misjudged his attempt to fly behind the plane, similar to a jetskier being hit by a boat because they were trying to time a jump over their wake. Though I have no idea why a helicopter would want to pass so closely behind a jet plane. Anybody who watched Top Gun knows what happens when you do that.
I saw a theory that they were looking at the wrong plane because they assumed the plane to watch was coming in on runway 1 not runway 33
This makes sense becasue the first 10 times I watched the video I was paying attention to the other plane and didn't see the small one... granted that's probably due to the perspective/position of the camera that happened to be recording
The plane was carrying the US Figure Skating development program coming off a development camp in Wichita
There are no survivors
Apparently there were parts of the US and Russian Figure skating teams on the plane.
Haven't seen anything about a Russian team, but the top coaches in the DC area are (were) Russian nationals. I think that's who they meant.
I was watching coverage last night until I fell asleep. This whole thing sucks and looks like it was preventable. I guess the Blackhawk was doing an annual night proficiency exam based on what just came out.
Seems unwise to be performing a proficiency exam in the landing pattern of a major commercial airport
The plane from Wichita was using the shorter runway which runs more east-west rather than the main runway which in almost due north-south. Someone should have known, but perhaps the helicopter didn't even know they were even close; they were on a training mission.
Again, why do anything near an airport? Tragic Accident that should have been preventable.
Most airbases are quiet close to commercial airfields as well. Andrews is just on the other side of the river from DCA. I'm not an aviation expert but I know that the military does a lot of their training over waterways for nav and terrain purposes. That puts training exercises regularly around DCA.
Again,
Its insanely stupid to have military aircraft, many of whom operate without transponders by design, operating in and around the flight corridors of commercial aircraft. I don't care that its something that has always happened, putting anything in the landing pattern of a major commercial airport starts a timer on when a disaster happens. At that moment its not a matter of if, its a matter of when.
Reminds me a lot of the PSA 182 in 1979. 727 crashed into a Cessna on final approach in San Diego, where the final conclusion is that VFR at modern airline speeds is all but impossible to maintain. Aircraft approach each other too fast in the sky to the point where if you think you're on a collision course its already too late.
I guarantee you that UH60 had a ADS-B (or equiv.) transponder onboard. Yes they can turn them off, but in the midst of DC airspace, No - it was on - that is assuredly a requirement.
Without violating the CGs, I'll just say that there's been a *lot* of controversy and consternation around DCA and its ability to handle increased traffic when factoring in the size of the airport itself as well as the amount of other air traffic in the surrounding area due to its proximity to the Pentagon, White House, Langley etc.
I'm not an expert but this feels like it was a matter-of-time type of incident. There have been quite a few close calls at DCA recently.
When I see shit like this, it's infuriating. How in the fuck was this even a remote possibility? Why would you have any flight pattern that came within miles of the by the book landing path of all commercial flights into a major airport?
Again, we are going to come away from this wondering how the hell we allowed this to even be a remote possibility. I guarantee you that if we scour flight logs over the years it's going to be littered with near misses. Which is completely and utterly unacceptable because we have learned these lessons from previous incidents and we did implement procedures to not have it happen again.
Probably because the initial landing instructions for the flight was for the north/south runway, the glide path for which goes along the western shore of the Potomac. The flight was switched over to the SE/NW runway, where the glide path goes across the Potomac. If the helicopter was staying to the eastern shore of the Potomac, it would have been clear of the former. Some communication must've been missed in the switchover.
Again, why would you have any flight path for the helicopters that came within miles of the landing path for any active runway at a major commercial airport? Why introduce elements that increase the odds of a collision like that?
Just plain stupid levels of 'well, we've always done it this way so why change'. Never should have allowed those helicopters to come anywhere close to those corridors.
Not a pilot, and not well versed in aviation need around the capitol area, but maybe a restriction of miles around ANY runway would be too restrictive?
That would disallow the use of the Potomac as a helicopter flight corridor always.
With all due respect, under no circumstance should this ever be possible. If it means shutting down the airspace around commercial airports, or at the very least around standard landing and takeoff patterns of active runways absolutely do it. Safety above all, and we have been flirting with disaster for too damn long.
In the first part it looked like the plane flew into the copter because of the angle. In the second that the Copter flew into the plane.
I'm no aviation expert but from what I know of sailing the airplane should probably have right-of-way and it's the helicopter's responsibility to not be in the way. If we boil down the "who's at fault" just as far as the two aircraft I'd assume the helicopter, as a craft, is in the wrong here. Now, what kind of directions were the pilots under at the time? Was the air-traffic controller in the wrong here? Was there faulty communication? Are there bad policies in place to allow for different aircraft to be occupying the same space at the same time?
There's probably a whole lot of compounding issues - but on the surface, it looks to me that the helicopter is in the wrong just from a right-of-way standpoint.
And there's another thing
Based on recent budget cuts, there was one ATC working the job of 2, handling both airline and helicopter traffic. Overworked and overwhelmed, this happened.
But again, why even allow this to be possible. At my house I can't fly a drone above 500 feet because I'm within a couple miles of RDU and in a periodic landing pattern, so certain precedent has already been set to clear the air for incoming planes. Why have flight patterns that have even a remote chance of intersecting?
I'm not so sure it's fair to blame the controller for this.
Agreed.
Policy should be in place to make sure this never happens. The controller didn't fail, the entire system failed.
I have seen at least one report that stated the other controller was sent home to save money. Whoever made that decision if true is going to be crucified.
"Well, this is about to get awkward."
-Community Guidelines
The controller pointed out the issue to the pilots.
That job got done in this case.
How long had that controller been on duty? What other circumstances exist?
I think we need to wait for more info. Sending the previous home MAY have been a correct or normal decision given other circumstances.
It is my current understanding that Across the board FAA ATC is significantly understaffed due to low pay and overwork as particularly the adjustment for COL in certain parts of the country is not figured well. DC would be one of those places.
There is also an issue with the length of time the training and qualifications take which also adds into the shortage. They can only train new ones so fast. The FAA have been looking at ways to streamline the training without compromising safety in the last couple of years.
You can't fly a drone above 400 feet AGL anywhere, with some exceptions.
I don't think there were flight patterns that intersected. You had a military aircraft on a training mission. I don't know if they were following a preset route or going rogue. You also had a commercial plane that was diverted from the usual runway. On top of that, I don't think they saw the correct plane when they radioed that they had the airliner (CRJ) in sight.
Their flight path was at the recommended altitude a plane on approach to that runway would be at the distance from the runway that the collision took place. I don't care if the incoming plane had to change runways, if the runway was open, you have to keep that corridor clear to prevent the possibility of something like this happening.
Again, safety above all else, and this wasn't safe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfgllf1L9_4
That's an excellent reference for someone wanting to understand what happened.
Control did a heck of a job, according to that audio recording.
They probably both flew into each other, as they were both moving.
the way I see it, the helicopter flew into the airplane's flight path at the wrong moment.
it's a tragic accident. The helicopter pilot is at fault, IMO. The controller asked the pilot twice if they had eyes on the incoming flight and both times the helicopter requested visual separation. Speculation, but in all likelihood the helicopter pilot had eyes on the wrong plane and just didn't see or wasn't aware of the plane that they collided with.
but why? -- there is so much Potomac river that's not the DCA air space. Why not train downstream and stay south of Anacostia river?
Not really directed at you, but at the FAA and military.
If I had to guess its a historic flight training pattern that hasn't been adjusted for decades despite increased civilian air traffic into DCA. The military and government move slow and are often reactionary. I'm sure they'll decide to change something now.
This accurate:
As someone that regularly flies into DCA as their preferred airport when visiting my family, and currently has flights scheduled in early March, I really do hope they figure this out.
And maybe I should be considering BWI or Dulles more than I do.
FWIW, I found BWI a really good option the few times I've needed to go into or out of that area. Have not used it for a long time, so maybe this is outdated, but big enough to have big planes going places, but not so big to be a massive headache to get around. Nowhere near as crowded as a lot of other places too. One thing I remember was not much food selection. But again, this is years ago.
Train is good. I generally don't worry about airplanes hitting my train into DC.
I really would like to use Amtrak more often. I've only used it twice as an adult. It's great to be able to move around fairly freely and it's generally a pretty relaxing way to travel.
Unfortunately, it's usually not the most cost effective method and typically slower than driving basically anywhere outside of the northeast corridor.
I have only used it once and it was to get from BWI to Dulles (which shockingly you can't get to any other good way) ... the amtrak piece was amazing and then metro out to dulles was not as nice but still fine.... whole thing cost about $15 and took slightly longer than an uber that would have been >$100
If you book ahead of time, I have always found it cheaper than flying. I can get on the train in Roanoke and get to DC about the same time it would have taken to drive but a lot more relaxing.
Man, I don't know if I am just really unlucky or if others are just really lucky when it comes to Amtrak, but going on the Northeast Corridor Route from Philadelphia to New York or Boston or Washington DC, I find that their on time performance is maybe around 10%. And they almost never tell you that the train is late until arrival time and then it switches to 5 minutes late ... then 15 minutes late ... then 1 hour late ... then ...
Also find that it is rarely less expensive than flying and can be quite a bit more. But that differs from trip-to-trip.
On the plus side, will say it is a lot more comfortable than flying once you actually get on the vehicle that is supposed to take you form point A to point B. And from Philadelphia to New York or Washington it is actually faster than flying when you take into account how early you are supposed to get to the airport vs. how early you are supposed to get to the train station. Also usually more convenient at my destination as I'm normally going somewhere in New York/Boston/Washington DC and the station is close by downtown while airports (other than DCA) usually are further away.
Heading north, I am not sure I have ever been behind schedule. Heading south I am not sure we have ever gotten back to Roanoke on time.
My experience also.
Lynchburg or Roanoke to Philly and DC.
Would be a long ride from California...
I have taken the Amtrak pacific surfliner several times (from San Diego to LA). It's usually a good way to go, but sucks when it gets behind. Gorgeous view of the ocean.
Back in the '70s, I was traveling from Richmond, VA to just outside St Louis MO to visit family friends. Driving time would have been 12 hours one way; flight time INCLUDING A 3 HOUR LAYOVER was about 5-5.5 hours; the train would have taken .....31 hours (FASTEST TRIP!! 21 HOURS from Richmond to Chicago; 5 HR LAYOVER/STOP in Chicago then 5 hours Chicago to St Louis!)
Main problem with trains- 1) very few trips you can go point to point shortest distance(the above QUICKEST route went to Richmond to DC to Pittsburgh back across to Chicago before heading down to st Louis; ; 2) tracks are owned by freight railroad companies which prioritize their own freight trains which means frequent stops on siding track;3) tremendous amount of stops on most trains.
I'll ride the Metro into DC proper to avoid parking issues but train ride just not efficient time/moneywise except in certain VERY specific corridors(eg the Philly to NYC or Philly to DC)
It's much better by motorcycle.
I took a train from San Diego up to San Jose. Took a book and propped my feet up in the observation car the whole time. Took all day, but wow, what a relaxing, scenic trip.
I did that one by motorcycle one day on my way to the outskirts of Oakland. PCH as far as I could then east of the bay. I guess that was my first Iron Butt ride.
Fantastic trip. 1987, I think.
Yeah I think I'll be switching to Dulles
When it comes to so many industries, there's an old saying that all regulations are written in blood.
Whatever comes from this will be no different. And we will look back on this going 'why did we ever this this was a good idea to begin with?'
No to be a stickler, but Bolling is the Base across the river from DCA. Andrews is further up into Maryland. Still relatively close though to DCA.
Yeah its 8mi away across the river didn't mean to make it seem like it was the base across the river. I assumed they were training out of Andrews but apparently this came from Belivoir though
Yeah. I covered a few stories on the 12th Aviation battalion when I worked out of the Public Affairs Office at Belvoir right out of VT. They are tasked with flying VIPs (Government Officials) in and around the NCR (National Capital Region).
Looks like the FAA agreed.
For the folks unfamiliar with aviation charts, if you look at the helicopter routes marked in blue, you will see the number 200 with a line above the number in multiple locations along route 4 where the H-60 was supposed to be flying. This indicates that the helicopter must fly no higher than 200 feet above the ground while on this route. All military helicopters are equipped with radar altimeters that constantly measure the distance from the bottom of the bird to the ground and this system is highly accurate. If the H-60 had been on Route 4 and below 200 feet above ground level, we would not be having this conversation.
Coming within 200 vertical feet of a passenger jet, though (assumed due to the timing where they actually collided), would the jetwash be an issue to a helicopter?
Comfort and peace to all those who lost loved ones.
And to highlight the benefits of TKP, this group is so much better than the cesspool that the supposedly "professional" LinkedIn site is. Took about 1 hour for that to devolve into a political shit show. Thank you for all in this community.
I have no idea what the tipping point was for that maybe it was COVID but somewhere around there that site comment section has gotten more intolerable than Facebook.
If it weren't for (1) my company saying I need to be on there (2) the hiking and backpacking group that I founded and manage and (3) the Virginia Tech Philadelphia alumni group that someone asked me to manage, I would have left a long time ago. There are truly some of the stupidest/sickest/most in need of mental help people on the planet regularly posting there. I'm not on Facebook, so cannot compare to them.
Can you provide a link to you hiking / backpacking group?
I think this will take you there. Let me know if there are problems getting in.
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/2584388/
The group requires moderator (me) approval for new members to join, so you may have to submit a request, which I'll approve. I also send a not to all new members asking that they not post commercial ads as discussions and I regularly have to kick out people for doing that. Unfortunately, I had to become a real hard case about that rule because the group was degenerating into a giant spam board of ads. No joke, if I did not log in for a couple of days, I'd often come back to 7 or 8 new "discussions" that would look something like this:
2 or 3 ads from trekking guides from Nepal (far-and-away the worst offenders)
1 ad from some guide/guide service/safari company/travel agent/hostel owner located somewhere other than Nepal
1 ad from someone trying to sell some product
1 internet scam about making money from home doing [INSERT WHATEVER]
1 link to some "helpful" podcast or webinar about how to maximize your 401K or how to CRUSH your next interview!
1 real discussion that actually had something to do with hiking or backpacking
It's cleaned up a lot.
I submitted a request to join
Passed several people through this morning. Assuming you were one of them, right?
Yes, I was. I sent you a note on the site
Thanks
one of my favorite subreddits is r/LinkedInLunatics. Always good for a few WTFs in the morning.
Oh gosh, I have to take a look at that.
Hey, I've contributed to that sub!
I won't spoil the click
that's wild to me. Also, not surprising. Tensions are high, particularly right around elections and administration changes so of course people are going to take every opportunity (even sick ones) to try and make a point or case that "their team" is better than "the other team"
People are people and it's tragic to have a loss of life event such as this, no matter who those people are or where they come from. Politics aren't and shouldn't be part of it. Accidents happen. To everyone. This isn't the fault of Red or Blue. If you say otherwise, get over yourself and go outside to get some fresh air.
Back in the late 80's and early 90's I flew Navy Sea King helicopters from Norfolk to the Pentagon pad and then flew over to Andrews AFB where we parked the bird until 4pm when we would fly back to the Pentagon pad and pick up the Admirals to fly back to Norfolk. Air Traffic Control at Reagan (National back then) would demand we fly below 200 feet AGL and stay well clear of the approach and departure zones for the active runway when we were flying in and out of the Pentagon. I hate to implicate fellow helicopter pilots but landing traffic always has the right-of-way and that H-60 should never have been near the approach end of the active runway at Reagan. Unless the jet was off course (extremely unlikely) then the helicopter was at fault almost without a doubt.
I saw on the news last night (or maybe this morning) that the helo was under 200 feet earlier in its track, but was closer to 300-350 feet nearer the point of impact. I have zero idea where they got the flight information, but they said the same thing you did about elevation limits in that corridor.
Man, this sucks. My wife's uncle lost both his best friend and his godson. Her niece lost 2 friends from school. Just crazy.
Sorry for their loss.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/faa-restricting-helicopter-flights-near...
While this ban seems prudent in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, it's important to recognize why 11,000 military helicopter flights occurred annually in this airspace. The 12th Aviation Battalion, like the one involved in this accident, plays a critical role in transporting members of Congress and senior Army leaders, particularly in emergencies where continuity of government operations is essential. HMX-1, the Marine unit responsible for flying the president and vice president, also relies on this airspace. Restricting access without a clear long-term strategy could hinder essential operations.
That said, safety must be improved. One significant step would be increasing the number of air traffic controllers at DCA, where only 17 are currently assigned when at least 30 are needed. Better staffing and coordination could help prevent similar tragedies in the future.
Also it's important to acknowledge the swift and professional response by emergency crews that night in awful conditions doing awful work. The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Fire and Rescue Department, DC Fire and EMS—with boats on scene within minutes—along with local and state agencies, played a crucial role in the rescue efforts. Eagle 1, the U.S. Park Police helicopter, also arrived quickly to assist. Their dedication and rapid action deserve recognition.
This is an obvious place to start, and I suspect it's an issue at airports across the country. Frankly, it's unacceptable and pretty scary. My FIL manages the tower at a major US airport and has said they struggle with air traffic controller staffing.
The 2023 NYT article linked below stuck with me. FAA internal records show that close calls involving commercial airlines happen on average multiple times per week. Sadly, it was only a matter of time until a tragedy like this occurred and peoples' lives will continue to be put at risk unless serious changes are made.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/21/business/airline-safety-close-calls.html
I don't doubt that more air traffic controllers might be needed, but there was an air traffic controller monitoring this, and he alterted the pilots regarding the issue.
Some preliminary information said one controller was working both planes and helicopters in area around airport. With two people maybe you are looking at more consistent communication with nearby helos, better call outs. Or since so much of the traffic is military integrate military ATC into the tower at DCA.
Based on the information out so far, they're likely to find that the helicopter was flying higher than the allowed ceiling, and that when alerted to the plane (and after having acknowledged that he was aware of it), probably had identified the wrong one. The helicopter should have been aware of the active runway, so one wonders why he was located where he was.
The controller performed his role in this case. Maybe he could have noticed the issue sooner, but it was identified.
Just waiting on the NTSB to come up with the preliminary report but some early questions I have:
- why wasn't there a dedicated ATC for the helicopter or military aircraft?
- was the Black Hawk equipped with ACAS, and was it turned on?
ACAS generally does not issue warnings below 1000ft. so probably would not have helped the CRJ.
I also wonder what sort of (if any) traffic avoidance system the Blackhawk had equipped.
The CVRs will be key to helping determine whether the crews were aware at all of either's presence.
The NTSB report and recommendations will be very interesting here.
From The Limited knowledge we have, I do not see an indication that ATC functioned inappropriately. Moreso, its not clear to me that having more ATC on-duty would have necessarily changed the outcome. This ATC noted the traffic and was told twice by the Heli pilot that they had visual on the CRJ. It really is not ATC's job to second or third guess in this scenario. A basic tenet of VFR is continuous scanning by the pilot. My guess is that given the CRJ was on a decent path, he started above the Heli...I don't have direct knowledge of the cockpit of a Blackhawk but suspect overhead sightlines are limited. Even with that, the glideslope was gentle and its not like the CRJ came down on top of the Blackhawk.
To Alum's point above--DCA is in a very congested corridor, but for commercial flights it has Slot-Restrictions. That is only so many movements in and out per day per airline. For instance, Airline X can't announce tomorrow that they are starting new flights to DCA without re-allocting their own flights or purchasing slots from another airline. This was part of the Delta--Northwest merger where they were required to divest their DCA slots and they were sold to U.S. Airways (now American). DCA is also distance-restricted which is why there aren't West Coast-DCA flights.
It would thus seem logical enough that when heavy arrivals/departures are occurring--most airports schedule them so in "banks" that there should not be movement allowed thru the approach path(s) by other aircraft-particularly for a "training flight" that was not emergent in any way. Or at the very least, not at altitudes that might conflict.
The best way to solve a problem is to prevent it from having the possibility to exist in the first place.
Another plane crash in Philly. Little details but it stated multiple casualties. Geesum I hope it's not another commuter plane.
small plane...initial reports of casualties on the ground as well
12 so far from what I've seen
ugh
there is a video which purports to be the crash...looks like a security camera may have caught it
Officially it's up to 7, 6 in the plane and 1 on the ground.
There are 19 still hospitalized, and the number will probably still grow, because if there was anyone walking where the plane hit there won't be much of a trace of them anymore.
I don't have an easy way to post the clips right now but the footage is terrifying. The plane looks to be going full speed when it hits
https://x.com/BNONews/status/1885475087266009266
yeah, that one
And I used to drive right by there on my way to work when the office was in Horsham and again when it moved to Fort Washington. We are on our third office location in something like 3 years. Now up in Yardley. Actually like the new one a lot more. Way more convenient for me and a really nice place.
Wow. The crash site is pretty close to my MIL in Southampton
This was horrifying. Crashed within 50 seconds of takeoff. During ATC handoff after takeoff, pilot stopped responding. Crashing going around 11,000 feet per second almost vertical based on the video. It legitimately looked like a missile. Extremely lucky the road and buildings were not a direct hit.
This was an Angel flight for a child finishing their treatment at CHOP returning home to Mexico. Two pilots, two medical professionals, young girl and guardian.
Last spring congress approved an additional 10 flights in and out of DCA. Only 4 senators voted against it due to the congestion it already had. It was the VA and MD senators. They wrote a letter urging colleagues to vote against it for the health and safety of the public.
and a very short-sighted and selfish vote by the remainder of the senate. Reagan was built when piston engine planes still dominated the market, and the sizing of the airport is a direct reflection of that time and technical ability. Unfortunately it took a major accident for the discussion on reducing congestion at the airport to be taken seriously
This is always a NIMBY vs progress discussion. People living around an airport never want more flights; airports always want more.
A helicopter flying in front of an active runway is always going to pose a risk, regardless of how many flights per day.
Correct but most airports don't have the helicopter traffic and the amount of restricted airspace (due to DC and military bases) that DCA has. It's incredibly tight at this airport. There is a point where you can't have more progress as there is a finite space available.