Tonight @RossDellenger confirmed the rumors. The SEC & Big Ten have complete control of the future CFP format starting in 2026. pic.twitter.com/bLs5b0mNXv— Josh Pate (@JoshPateCFB) February 17, 2025
Yikes! Seems like a bad idea.
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Seems about right. Pretty well aligned with everything else going on
At what point do enough non-p2 schools get tired of the bullshit and start a different league? Clearly the NCAA has made themselves useless at this point.
About 5 minutes before they cancel every game scheduled with the P2 and say good luck with your two conference league. The rest of us will be playing for the real national championships for football and basketball. You made you bed, now lay in it.
Ithink the fear is instant irrelevant vs slowly becoming irrelevant. The P2 obtained control by threatening to leave everyone behind.
Football would have been better if they let them
I dont necessarily disagree, but the ACC is locked into ESPN. ESPN promotes SEC, B1G, and CFP. Leave and ESPN would have all the motive to actively demote the ACC. The ACC would have to find a media outlet to promote the CFP, which would be pretty unattractive to media execs. Big12 and every G5 conference would be in the same or similar situations.
ACC, Big-12, and G5 are cucks to the SEC/B1G/ESPN/Fox power stakeholders. They need NBC or Apple to want to establish a new alternative, while ACC, Big12, and G5 are stuck in contracts with ESPN.
Won't happen unless the P2 (or really, just the bluebloods) officially pullaway.
Even before the P2 distanced themselves from the remainder of the P5, there was still a drastic disparity between your New Mexico States of the world and your Ohio States of the world.
Did the G5 schools ever try to leave the P5? Not once. They tried - as an exercise in both unfounded aspiration and great futility - to compete with premier brands, insisting that they were playing at the same level. We all knew it was a facade, but we went a long with it anyway.
I don't see anything changing unless one of the following happens:
Unfortunately, I believe the former is significantly more likely than the latter.
The G5 was at a huge disparity but Boise won games against marquee opponents; UCF claimed a national title, and Cinci got to the 4 team playoff. The odds were stacked against them, though, yes. It wasn't fair to them then, and it isn't fair to us now.
I know life ain't fair, but geez.
There's currently 65ish G5 programs. There are 3 programs that have had multi-year sustained success competing against Power 4/5 teams.
And this is how I believe the ACC and B12 will behave. Rather than letting the P2 separate, we will bend over backwards to compete at the same level. A small handful of teams will be able to compete at the same level for a stint here or there.
College football was never designed to be 'fair' - there's 135ish FBS teams that play 12 games each year, and then we have to find some way to crown a champion. I'm not looking for fair. In fact, I think one of the things that makes CFB so great is that a 4 score underdog can win. But that can't happen unless there's plenty of 4 score underdogs getting slaughtered each week.
Let's just call it what it is, and let the premier brands separate. FCS did it in the 70's and they maintained strong traditions. Why not us now?
To be honest, I think there should be more levels of stratification. Why, in 2025, do we pretend that ULM ($7.3m football budget), Virginia Tech ($32.4m football budget), and Ohio State ($72.3m football budget) are all playing at the same level? It's not the case.
I agree with you that we should let them separate, but I am disappointed that it has come to this. At one time, the SEC was the "best conference in college football." ESPN's media machine eventually turned that message into "the SEC is the only college football worth watching. And a few name brand B1G schools are too."
Anyway, it's gone on for long enough now that the official structure of how we determine a champion is going to be measured by whatever the SEC and B1G want, I.e. whatever will make them the most money, and not necessarily whatever rewards the "best" or "most deserving" teams.
If there's going to be a separation, it's not going to be a P2 breakaway, necessarily. No way something like this will be based on just conferences that are the end result of geographic associations over 100 years ago. It's going to be based on whoever is willing to spend at an appropriate level, and will involve the top teams leaving P4 conferences, not the P2 conferences moving en masse.
FSU, Clemson, Miami, UNC, and VT will be involved. Maybe NC State.
When you and I went to VT, people wore green and red parkas to games and UNC hats. VT champion sweatshirts from the bookstore were rare throughout lane. After Mike Vick, the stadium turned maroon, blacksburg built more restaurants than Macadoos for post game and christiansburg built a whole lot more hotels. VT should let history repeat itself. Do whatever it takes to get into a P2 league. lean into football being a major part of the economy again, etc.
Michael Vick wasn't just my introduction to VT football, he was my introduction to having a favorite football player and having a favorite football team. But I was too young to understand what a national championship was - I just thought VT football was awesome and Mike Vick was Superman.
I got older, grew to understand the game better, and started to understand the scope of what playing for a national championship really meant. Somewhere around 2004-2005, I got The Dream - one day, VT football would play for (and maybe even win) a national title, and I'd be old enough to watch it, understand it, and enjoy it.
The Dream has taken countless body blows over the past 13 years or so, and crucial hits to the head and face. I'm not so delusional as to say that I go into every season thinking "this year is the year" or even "we can get there in five years."
But for as long as I can remember, it's always felt like The Dream could happen during my lifetime. I'll probably live roughly 50 more years. So why not, right?
For a while, it just felt like if we could time up the NLF early departures on defense and graduations on offense the right way, maybe we'd have the talent to get over the top and go to a BCS national title game. Then it felt like "if we can just have an offense, we make a CFP." Then it felt like "if we can just get the right schedule, and then upset Clemson in ACCCG, we could be in the CFP." Then it felt like "if we could just get the right coaching staff and retain a stud QB, maybe we can catch the right breaks to host a CFP game in lane sometime before I die."
It's time for me to accept it. The Dream lived a long, memorable life, but The Dream is dead. It doesn't matter what we do right anymore. We're not getting an invite to the dance, no matter how well we perform on the field. Our best case scenario is officially 2017 UCF, because we are officially in the 2017 equivalent of the AAC. (Jordan Travis more or less confirmed this last year, but at least you could say "FSU would've had a chance if they had their quarterback). You can't even pretend to say that anymore. We're officially without say-so in the process now.
Even if we somehow get an invite to the P2, turn our program around, and start winning at the highest level, it won't be The Dream. Don't get me wrong, it'd be awesome, but it wouldn't be The Dream. The Dream, as conceived in my childhood, includes a champion who reigns over all of 100+ college football teams.
We're officially NFL-lite at the top now. If the rest of the conferences kick the P2 out and say "ok cool, we have our own division," we might win that one day - but it still won't be the same, because we won't be the "best team in the country."
The Dream is dead. Rest in peace.
I identify with so much of this. Well written post
Man. Yeah, this...this really gets at a lot of it.
From the sound of things, we are contemporaries as far as our ages and when we got into VT football. I am still a bit further gone than you. Every season (with the possible exception of maybe 2019-22) despite the many many moments where I ragequit, I also have at least one moment of "yknow, we could....we could really go undefeated here." That comes from us being in the conversation every year of the 2000s. Long enough for it to kind of be the default, even after all the years of mediocrity.
I don't think that'll ever change. Then again, maybe it will.
They never should've taken down the empty trophy case in Merryman. I know, I know - it was a source of ridicule within the fanbase as well as without. But I loved that shit. It took balls to put that there. It showed what the goal was. It showed what the expectations were. It said "Hey, we've been here before. We expect to be back."
The reasons why we haven't have been litigated and relitigated to death. I won't get into that here. But when they removed the case, it was a ceding of ground and a tacit admission that they would likely never retake it. It was a loser mentality at work. Maybe that was the moment I should've stopped paying attention. VT football has drowned under a sea of people and organizations who either didn't know, didn't care, or weren't willing to do what it takes to keep winning at the highest level.
And now it's out of our hands. So be it, but I am going to fight back the only way I know how. I am not going to give the SEC or B1G credit for being the best at anything. Not ever. I am going to say as loudly as possible that the national champs suck, and that every single playoff team sucks. I am not going to admit that impressive plays are impressive, or that smart coaches are smart.
Because it's the truth. Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama, Georgia, Texas et al. all do suck. Their biggest accomplishment will always be sucking no matter how many illegitimate trophies they rack up. They suck because they ruined the sport I love, and they have robbed my favorite college football team of a chance to become the champions of it. They've legitimized the removal of the trophy case. They've given credence to the cancerous small potatoes mindset that is rampant at VT. They've given the complacent people that don't care enough about winning something to point to and say "see, we were never going to summit that mountaintop anyway." And that is their biggest crime of all.
I'll always be right here until we lose. And in the current iteration of the CFP, I'll always be there until there's no viable path for us to make the ACCCG.
But The Dream being dead isn't to say my fandom or hope for what the team can do against its schedule in any given year is gone. It's just that, beginning in 2026, COLLEGE FOOTBALL, A MULTIMEDIA PRODUCTION VENTURE has been given over to the wolves.
And I know, some of you are going to say it's always been that way, and there's some historical truth to that. But we're not wolves anymore and our performance on the field won't dictate whether we get to be wolves again either.
Yep. That's pretty much where I am at now. I'm 48, or will be here in a few more days. I was in school during that 1999 season, graduated from Tech in 2000. At the time I had no idea how much things would change and couldn't really have known obviously. But that was the peak. The evolution of the sport, especially over the past decade, has reinforced the old money. The ladder has been pulled up, and there will be very few, if any, new champions.
VT's decline is of course due in some part to its own mistakes, failing to build on the success of those late 90s and early 2000s teams chief among them. But in looking back I think it is clear that the world changed in 2010 or so and that was the point of no return. We are the Brewers. We will never be resourced to compete at the highest level of what is supposed to be the same sport played by an Ohio State or Georgia. It is now structurally impossible and the era of good management decisions being able to guide is into that range of competition has been closed for a decade and a half at this point.
This year, for the first time in twenty-five years since graduating, I will not have season tickets to Virginia Tech football. The constant churn of the roster, the un-regulated farm team system, the completely un-level playing field and the sad state of the sport as the P2 money programs blot out of the sun have finally snapped my streak. It's a good time to call it. My $2500 is a rounding error in what anOSU spends on beard grooming products for Ryan Day I bet.
I love my school, I cherish my memories of many home and away games, but it's just not responsible or reasonable for me to support the athletics program in this direct manner anymore.
I am not there yet... I have renewed my football and basketball tickets for next year. But I did have a long internal discussion about football.
I think I knew The Dream was dead sometime between 2013 and 2015. I remember that being the era where recruiting rankings were becoming significantly more predictive and regional recruiting was going by the wayside, when it became clear that VT could not "hide" diamond-in-the-rough recruits from the premier brands, I lost faith.
As I've continued following the sport, learned more about how athletic departments work, how the sausage is made, etc. I've continued to come to terms with this reality.
I think we knew this when undefeated ACC conference champion Florida State was left out of the playoffs in 2023.
We knew this is where is was going to end up. Time for every non-Big 10 (or however they count) and SEC school to break away and flip them the middle finger.
I haven't watched any VT basketball this year. Right now I couldn't tell you our record and I have no idea when the last time we played was or when we play next. And quite frankly, I just don't care.
I am fully resigned to the fact that I will probably look at VT football the same way within the next 5 years. If anything the only reason I'll show up to watch is just to hang out with friends every weekend, but the football itself is just an afterthought.
I really just don't care anymore. I don't care where we are in the big picture, I don't care about our future, I don't care about our place in the big picture because I know for a fact we will never matter again. We are a minor league program in a minor league conference with zero aspirations to be anything more and now the scales are being actively tipped against us.
At this point in my life I enjoy pro sports far more than college. At least in most pro leagues they actually care about competitive balance. In college, it's all about squeezing you for everything you have and then taking a shit down your throat because it will never be good enough. I'm just done with it. And given the way traffic has seemingly dried up for both TSL and TKP over the years, I have to think I'm not alone.
I haven't watched any college sports other than 1/2 of the Boise playoff game (I was hanging out at a buddies house and he wanted to watch it.).
My interest in college sports is limited to how VT is doing and I will only listen to the broadcast through the VT app or follow on a game cast.
Fuck this sport
Break away and stop playing them. Grow a spine. Why? because with every amateur pretense being overruled in every court case, they will keep on stepping on your neck until they have auto bids for all 16 spots anyway. Why not? If the G5 sues, they will lose. If the ACC sues, they will lose. Stop playing them and start your own league. Let them play each other. Also how did precious child Notre Dame not get a seat at this table?
Yeah they have no incentive to not continue to push this. The only recourse is to drop playing any games against their conferences effective immediately. Of course that won't happen Phillips might mention something publicly but will roll over and we'll continue on the accelerated path to irrelevance
The funny thing is we don't actually have to pull away just stop scheduling the P2 for the rest of the FBS. ESPN invites us to play an opening game against an SEC, no thanks. Heck if you leave your annual SEC-ACC rivalry games intact that would give the SEC one game a year against non-FCS teams. Bama would be playing 4 FCS teams unless they schedule the B1G, Georgia could at least use the argument they are playing against the ACC one game a year. How hard would it be for them to still talking about being the best if everybody just stops scheduling them.
Fuck them, leave them to die without bothering to pull away.
This. Cancel all future games against them including for 2025 NOW.
Fuck em. Replace those games with the other non P2 teams who are also canceling.
I agree, but the challenge is that this has to be a united front – and united fronts are something that historically, college football teams have never done well.
If Virginia Tech turns down these offers, someone else will take them and take money that we could have had.
Even if a bunch of teams collectively decide to "boycott" the P2, someone will break the strike and take the money rendering all of us powerless.
As usual, the problem goes back to a lack of centralized authority within the sport
Yes true but if the ACC and Big 12 hold strong they don't have many other options. The G5 doesn't really gain anything by signing up to get smoked in those games. It's in their best interest to hold out for higher paychecks in those buy games.
Heck, even if they break ranks for financial reasons hold out for MILLIONS. Bama wants to play directional Michigan, well they should hold out for 5-10 million for a one game series. Bleed them and their extra money.
I can see it now: "We've decided on a 16-team playoff. Eight SEC autobids, and eight BIGten autobids. Revenue evenly split among the participating conferences."
And finally ND asks to join the Big Ten. But wants to keep its nonrevenue sports in the ACC for easy wins.
The only hope is that when 6-6 Missouri is in the playoffs over 11-1 Oklahoma State that beat Missouri by 30, nobody will watch the games and there will be outrage on talk radio. That's all we can hope for.
Of all people, I would have fully expected you to be the first one to understand why Notre Dame with their old money coffers bursting at the seams had the powers that be pull up a chair for them at the table.
Gonna be something ridiculous like "auto-bid for ranked ND".
They are 100% going to get a seat. Its inevitable, and they'll be allowed to do it with the concessions they always get.
Why?
Because they print money for the networks. ESPN always negotiates on their behalf to screw others. They will get a seat. They'll get an auto-bid if they are ranked in the top 20. Hell, they might get an auto-bid by having something like 9 wins. It'll be infuriating and there's nothing we'll be able to do about it.
This is the correct answer. The ACC could kick their olympic sports out with no impact. Why won't the ACC do that? I have no idea.
While I'm fairly certain you meant discretion, the typo almost works if you change it to desecration- ' treating a sacred place or sacred object shamefully or with great disrespect.'
OK... listened to the whole clip and I have a new level of disdain for Jim Phillips. This info isn't new - its just coming to light now. This means that either a) Phillips *knew* about the inclusion and signed the agreement any way, or b) didn't have the ACC legal team read it thoroughly enough and thus didn't know about it. Either way, Phillips is complicit and NWO (Big 10 and SEC) are conniving their way to total autonomous control of college football.
I would rather VT go independent and/or drop to FCS than live under this BS.
If you were watching Georgetown Syracuse on your couch in 1985 in a sold out pro arena you would have never believed someone that said "this league will go away one day". It was bigger at the time than the NBA- The Big East conference as it was made up. If someone told you on Friday of the ACC tournament in 1995- Duke Maryland or UNC Duke, etc that this conference one day will go away or be irrelevant. Nobody would believe you. Thanks to trained geese and swofford being reactive and incompetent , both conferences will be dead as we know them- soon.
Trained geese - I love this autocorrect. He was about as useful.
It likely wasn't autocorrect. That's what the folks on TSL called him back in the day.
The issue is ESPN. But I agree that the ACC and the rest of non-P2 need to find an alternative angle of power. They need to find some leverage.
The B1G/SEC have the resources, ESPN/Fox, and better political connections. The ACC has nothing. The ACC needs to somehow get associated with the NRA or AARP or something, idk...
The ACC deserves nothing. We've been using the previous decades playbook for the last three decades:
The ACC has continued to shoot itself in the foot for nearly three decades now. It's no wonder we're finally bleeding out. Why should/would ESPN (or anyone else) save us? The conference will find a new way to do it again.
I dont think the ACC, B1G, or SEC deserve anything. The SEC/B1G certainly don't deserve to have sole power over all of college football.
The SEC/B1G aren't in control because they deserve to be in control. They are in control because they were pushed to power by ESPN/Fox executives. Why should ESPN determine that the teams and fanbases of Miss. State, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Univ. of Maryland, etc. deserve to have a better opportunity to make and watch their team in a playoff more than Clemson, FSU, VT, KSU, Baylor, WVU, etc.?
Yes. The ACC had incompetent leadership that couldn't recognize that giving all their power to ESPN was going to result in ESPN determining who would be the chosen, and then not choosing the ACC. But that doesn't make the college team and fanbase undeserving. And the Big12 was incompetent but also F-ed over by Texas, who destroyed the B12 and left them.
Idk, I just don't buy some teams deserve more power than other based on media contracts.
I'm sure there are smart enough lawyers out there for the non P2 conferences to band together and file antitrust lawsuits against the SEC and B1G
with Disney and the majority of their subsidiaries on the list of defendants as well
Dude - Title fucking 9 is going away. This is a loser in court.
Should have let them go
Absolutely embarrassing. Signing your own death warrant.
Yahoo article
Fucking surreal to read
Right? Feels legitimately scandalous that the league heads would sign onto something like that. ACC/Big 12 especially.
We're in a cuck league.
Liberty U:
No other way to put it.
The non-P2 need to threaten to walk. Use our dwindling leverage while we still have it. The non-P2 still has a number of major football brands and state TV markets currently untouched by the P2. They can only drink our milkshake as long as were sitting at the table voluntarily participating in this increasingly illegitimate bullshit. If the P2 (and ESPN) believes they're the only leagues generating value here, let's call their bluff. The longer we wait, the greater the resource disparity becomes, and our leverage diminishes.
You know... the FSU and Clemson lawsuits were always stupid, they're going to leave at some point, so fuck em until they do.
So why did the ACC give them a little bump as "traditional" brands? Because otherwise they likely could have used this shit-ass deal as evidence that the ACC wasn't working in good faith for their best interests. Good lord.
The future is always going to be P2 contraction. The top teams from the BIG and the SEC will eventually leave the deadweight from their own conferences behind and form a new super league with a monster tv contract.
That will absolutely happen. This is just a matter of controlling the speed at which it does. Die quick or die slow? The rest of the G8 have decided to die slow.
Agreed.
The explanation that I've heard is that the revenue the other ACC teams would lose in the new revenue share deal is less than than the legal fees necessary to defend against it.
I agree. At some point, Alabama (as an institution) will have more in common with Southern Cal than Miss. State. At this point, the super league will commence.
And yes, at this point I just want the P2 to split away, take their ball and fucking leave. I'm tired of them. I'm tired of the fucking circus. I'm tired of watching them try and bleed us dry just so they can get a little more. Fuck them, fuck this sport, fuck college athletics. I've reached my breaking point. I don't watch college basketball anymore. I do not watch college baseball or softball. And as of the last couple years I only watched VT football, and I'm thinking I'm done with that.
I'm so turned off by everything that is going on that I want out. I don't care and I don't want to care anymore. The greed has completely pushed me aside. From the schools to the players, everyone just wants their hands on our hard earned money, money they whine that they don't get enough of during a time when culturally we are being squeezed in every aspect of our lives where salaries have stagnated while inflation skyrocketed and its only going to get worse. Mind you, these same students already had their education paid for, an easily 6 figure benefit, but that wasn't good enough, no, they needed their hands in my pocket because god forbid they actually had to be treated like a fucking student and pay for their own clothes or meals. And boo hoo these fucking schools couldn't make due with their 8 figure tv revenue streams and 9 to 10 figure endowments, no they needed more because they had to just keep building and modernizing buildings and stadiums that never became old and obsolete. They just needed more.
Fuck
it
all
I'm done. For the first time in my life I genuinely hate what is going on with college sports and I'm realizing that it just does not bring me enjoyment anymore. Everything about it is miserable. Everything about it sucks, it just exists to remind everyone who isn't a chosen one that they aren't part of the chosen crowd and they exist to get walked over. I can't support it anymore. I can't do it anymore.
I'm out
I will care about VT going forward on a game to game basis, and I will try and go to football games when they play down here, but I'm not going to care any more and I am not going to dedicate weekends to it anymore. We are never going to win a national title in any sport as long as we are playing against the SEC and Big Ten. Period, will not happen. They can outspend us up and down the budget and we cannot control it. I'd rather us drop down to D2 than continue this charade anymore. And if we aren't going to do that, then shut down football and just go all in with other sports. Or just go the route of the Ivy League and eliminate all athletic scholarships and just do it for the love of the game. I don't want to play the game anymore, I'm out. And I will not give another penny to VT as long as we are just wasting it like we have been.
Leg. Summed up my thoughts perfectly as well. I'm done sinking money into this bottomless pit as well.
This was the end result that was coming since the inception of "NIL." Those with money and power were going to squeeze out those without it. In 2027, the ACC and Big-12 will formally begin dissolving.
This season was really the perfect embodiment of "new" College Football---OSU went over-the-top to assemble the best team money could buy. And sure, they won the National Championship but they lost two regular season games, one to their most bitter rival. Here's the other point....the Athletics Department is LOSING MONEY.
https://www.thelantern.com/2025/01/ohio-state-athletics-claims-37-7-million-deficit-in-monday-ncaa-report/
The majority of the CFP was boring and non-competitive and the TV ratings were down. The interest in watching the same handfull superteams full of the football equivalent of mercenaries isn't there for the casual fan. And that's where money is made---the casual fan.
College Football is nothing more than a short-sighted cash grab phase at this point. The system isn't sustainable (and never was without some level of regulation) and the P2 are going to wring every last drop of cash out before everything collapses.
By 2030, fan interest will wane to MLB levels, collectives will collapse, revenue will start to fall and the entire system will consume itself.
In the meantime, I will be scrambling to setup a reverse mortgage on my home so that I can help pay "NIL" to a 5'9" 26 year-old QB so that he can afford a lawyer to sue for an 8th year of eligibility because he had Turf-toe for 2 games during his 2nd Sophomore year that limited his "NIL Potential."
This has nothing to do with
NILpay for play and everything to do with conference realignment and TV networks.If the SEC didn't poach Texas/OU, and the B10 didn't expand westward, there wouldn't be a P2. Furthermore, if the ACC was able to execute on their broadcast strategy (it was mostly the same strategy as the SEC, just a botched execution) and if the P12 didn't have an absolutely stupid strategy (owning all their own rights and trying to stand up their own network from scratch without any broadcasting or distribution experience), we wouldn't be in this consolidation state.
Imagine this alternative reality:
If these three things happen, sure the B12 falls. But instead of being two power conferences focused in two(ish) geographic areas, today, there's four power conferences in four(ish) geographic areas.
Hell, even if the first bullet doesn't happen, but the second two do, the ACC and P12 are on far more stable footing than they are today.
In the above situation,
NILpay for play still happens. But there is still significantly more representation throughout the entire sport. The SEC/B10 don't have the negotiating power that they have now. They can make some demands, but they still have to play ball.This is another line of logic that I think is incorrect: Yes, mass casual fans bring in more money than a handful of bama fans. BUT casual fans typically cheer for bluebloods. You think Joe-Shmo in Greysville Alabama gives a fuck about the ACC or the MAC or even the sunbelt? Fuck no, he wants to watch Alabama vs Auburn. And if that's not on, his next choice is OSU vs Michigan. You think the 24 year old Finance Bro in NYC who went to Williams college or Middlebury and grew up a Patriots fan is going to tune into VT vs NC State? Hell no, but he'll throw on Penn State vs USC.
Edit to add: if schools turned down money for broadcast rights, then there would be no NIL/Pay-for-play/collective money/house money. Everyone in an athletic department gets to offer their services/product to the highest bidder, except the players.
"This has nothing to do with NIL "- maybe - but what has EVERYTHING to do with NIL is that the beast is bigger than ever and needs feeding. You need 30 million cash to field a championship team now give or take. That's why the P2 is consolidating. Money. Now to feed the beast. please for the love of god don't feed me the bullshit that "schools" don't pay NIL. that is laughable and everyone on here knows it.
We would be in the same place today if conference alignments happen the same way, but players couldn't get paid (ie; players lost all the court cases).
The schools want to get as much money as possible. They would prefer the players not get paid because that's more money for the school.
Yeah, the focus on the un-paid labor finally getting a small taste is missing the point. The players at the big programs, and a lot of the smaller ones too, were getting paid. But at least now it is above the table and a market can operate in the open. The problem is that there's no structure, it's the Wild West, and now it's the worst of all worlds.
And that set of conditions has occurred because the handful of BSDs want it to remain this way.
Posting here since the replies below are condensed past phone readability. Carson Beck, ladies and gentlemen, stayed in school in a weak QB draft year, meaning he's likely a Day 3 pick.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/miami-qb-carson-becks-me...
College football exists to serve Carson Beck and Cam Rising. Make sure those dudes get their bag.
You're partially correct. This process doesn't have to do with NIL. But NIL is players getting money for autographs, jersey sales, media using their likeness, ect. No one reasonably had a problem with that.
But this does have Everything to do with "NIL" --- (note the quotes).
"NIL" is:
These processes have invariably favored the Blue Bloods (and secondarily the teams that reside within their conferences). If you don't think "NIL" played a massive role in the SEC annexing Texas and Oklahoma, you have your head in the sand.
And while Conference realignment/mismanagement and TV money both are also an integral part of the disintegration of CFB, you're stuck in the trees and missing the forest. The overwhelming problem here is Unchecked Greed. And that is where "NIL" fits in.
Its a basic idea of economics--a strategy to take over a market from smaller competitors, you simply price them out of it, even if it costs you in the short-term (see Ohio State example above).
This has been the plan from the start. To transform NIL into "NIL" and use it to consolidate money. And while people were too preoccupied making posts about "exploited players," and "NCAA always bad," the power was left to the SEC and B1G Administration-- who are just surrogates for TV Executives at Fox, ESPN, CBS, and NBC. TV Executives are bent on profit and will leave a rotting corpse of CFB behind once every last dime has been squeezed out. And yeah, TV Execs are absolutely going to find a way to completely screw over players too.
i just read this comment and thought Bar wrote it in support of "NIL didn't do this, schools and tv execs grabbing more money did this"
Nil is a symptom. Not a cause.
My use of the term 'NIL' was imprecise - replace 'NIL' with 'collective money' or 'pay for play' or 'compensation' or 'roster value' - my point stands: none of the problems in sport stem from players receiving money in exchange for their on field performance or off the field services.
Players getting paid isn't the issue.
Lets just cut the crap here and now.
NIL is pay to play. It has never been about Name Image and Likeness, it is 'how much are you going to pay me to put on your jersey', for kids who are already getting a 6 figure benefit from the university in their free education.
Its pure, runaway greed that is actively killing the sport and squeezing out everyone who isn't in the SEC and Big Ten.
That's kind of the point..."NIL" is a pseudonym that is used because it sounds nicer and cleaner than saying:
"Payoff to an 18 year-old that has no clear return on investment. It's likely to totally be money down the drain and the player will be free to transfer in 4 months"
The truth about NIL is this: very few college athletes have any meaningful NIL value. Less than 10%, probably more like 2% on a National stage.
And that's where "NIL" has been utilized by the P2 to grab power. They can afford to pay a 3☆ LB $30k to play for them. Most others can't, but now every 3☆ LB and their "NIL agents" think they have they are worth $30k so they bounce into and out of the Portal, not getting a step closer to the NFL dream that isn't ever coming nor getting any meaningful education. Some just end up "disappearing" into the Portal. They don't stay at places like VT, Wake Forest, Purdue, ect. because they are being sold a bunch of bullshit.
Agree here. The logo on the helmet is the brand that has the true value in college football, not the individual player. As you mention, very very few players have true name brand recognition and value. Extremely few. Most college football players confuse being a public figure with having inherent name/brand value. Everybody knows who the Mayor is in my town, but it doesn't mean if somebody put billboards of him up and tried to sell their business using his likeness and image that anyone would care. Would just be a waste of advertising money. NIL has absolutely nothing to do with value and name recognition. It's simply pay for play and nothing beyond that.
Everyone should have gotten a little something from EA sports, jersey sales made sense too, even promos for games and stuff, it's not big money but it's still something. But outside of those types of things there are maybe 1-2 players a year (i think I'm generous) that really had NIL value. Mike Vick had value, Reggie Bush had value, Tim Tebow had value, Caitlin Clark had value, Arch Manning has value from his family. What's his name Milroe does not, I couldn't name very many people from OSUs roster at all.
The kids are getting theirs finally. When the greed indictments start coming down I'm less concerned about the kids getting six figures than I am about the coaches, admins, and schools getting nine figures. There's so much money in all this nonsense and everyone is still going broke.
The only way to win this game is to not play it.
The real issue the kids have ALWAYS been getting theirs. They were getting a free education, room and board. Before NIL a lot of those players got degrees that would serve them in life if they didn't go pro.
Say it louder for the people in the back
Yeah...but you're missing the real point....you can't buy overpriced electronics, gaudy jewelry, or sportscars with degrees.
NIL is about what really matters in life.
Yeah. women.
Yep- 99% of Duke and Stanford's football and basketball teams would not be admitted to those schools on their academic record. To pretend that the opportunity to get an education from there is worthless is bullshit. I'd argue its invaluable for a kid with marginal HS grades to get a degree from Stanford, since 99.9% of them don't make the NFL or NBA. To pretend that is not worth anything is total horseshit.
What percent of those kids (the kids getting an opportunity purely due to their athletic prowess) are actually learning vs just getting a degree? Or do you think it doesn't matter?
There's a difference between believing a degree is 'not worth anything' and believing that, if adults are willing to pay these kids to wear a specific jersey, that the kids should have the right to accept said pay.
A very large % of these kids would never attend college at all if not for running fast, etc. So your question is meaningless regarding what they do IN college. The alternative is - not college. IF they matriculate from Duke or Stanford in any meaningful and legit way academically, that is worth a fortune in networking, job opportunities, etc. Most people aren't entitled to fake money they don't get from legit NIL. Nah, that is reserved for college athletes. Most people have to earn a living, and a Duke degree helps that tremendously- you can disagree, that's fine. But it is true. The entitlement culture in big time college sports has clouded all basic judgement - i.e. a Stanford degree is a huge benefit in life.
Most people aren't good enough to change the on field outcome any sport that has millions of viewers each week.
No one 'deserves' or is 'entitled' to anything in life. So if the universe (or college football boosters) present you with an opportunity to get something, you should take advantage of it.
I agree with you: A free degree from duke, stanford, VT, whatever is a huge benefit, regardless of if your tutors are doing all the work for you and learn nothing.
"So if the universe (or college football boosters) present you with an opportunity to get something, you should take advantage of it"- you nailed it... an irrational mega booster laundering money or avoiding tax hits to pay you for not being truly marketable or oftentimes even good at football is not earning anything. Players demanding 7 figures, private planes, etc just because Connor Stallions would sell his sole for Big Blue or some dumb ass oil barron lights money on fire is the definition of entitlement.
It's not tax avoidance (IRS is clamping down on non-profit collectives, so this 'loophole' is basically gone, and I don't expect giving to drop off)... These 'irrational' boosters think that winning a natty, beating a rival, etc will bring them happiness, and they think a given player can help them win those things, so they incentivize said player to come to their school. It's actually quite rational - they're trading money for (hopefully) happiness.
Now, one can argue that the boosters' line of thinking is ethically or philosophically flawed, but I wouldn't call it 'irrational'.
what IRS?
I think many of us are just starting to realize that, in the end, it's just a damn game. It's entertainment, and the reason we participate in it and spend money on it is because it used to represent a university that we had some tie to and that entertained us. I just don't see that the players have much value without the university. The only good or service being sold is entertainment, and most people with the ability to pay for that don't care about the potential athletic ability of high school teenagers. This is not the NFL, and to try to make it some watered down professional league isn't going to work and I think the bubble is going to burst. I could be wrong, and I wish everyone the best, but it's not entertaining me like it used to and I think others feel similarly in large numbers.
If you think its the name on the backs of the jersey, just look at the millions of examples of proof that it isn't. aTm sells more tickets now than they ever did with Manziel. OSU kinda survived without Maurice Clarrett, ya think? Duke hoops did OK when Zion left. VT sold out Lane last year for a bad team in general 25 years after Mike Vick. It's the name on the front. Can't think of an example where it hasn't been. Hank Gathers at Loyola Marymount, Larry Bird at Indiana State- maybe those 2.
But most fans care about their university winning, and better players means more winning, thus fans pay (directly or indirectly) for better players.
The idea that you could switch VT's roster with ODU's roster and that you'd see no drop in fan excitement is wrong, and we all know this. Joe knows that winning teams = more TKP members and interaction. Every business in Blacksburg (hell, the NRV) knows that VT football doing well is better for business. And I think we can all agree that better players = better team.
As long as the university logo is on the jersey, the league will be financially viable. And as long as the university logo is on the jersey, fans will want the best players to play on their teams because fans care about winning.
"The idea that you could switch VT's roster with ODU's roster and that you'd see no drop in fan excitement is wrong"- we are 6-7... I doubt there would be much difference at all in fan excitement. And ironically our boosters vastly overpaid for an ODU kid to be on this team.
This is laughable -- look around tkp and how the user base has cratered over the last 4 years
Hold on... a team coming off 7-6 sold out lane last year, but I am supposed to believe Lane is half empty with high 2 stars vs. 3 star players? that's laughable. The talent is down CONSIDERABLY since the mid 2000s to the same fan engagement.
2024 was the first season since 2012 we sold out all the home games. Why was 2023's 7-6 different enough to inform ticket sales for 2024 relative to the preceding decade? You really honestly dont think that had anything at all to do with the players we had returning? Either unrestricted player movement is bad for fan engagement or it isn't.
Ali Jennings is an "odu roster" guy. Fans were into him, correct? They cheered for him. Put 85 of them in maroon and orange running out to enter sandman and there won't be a noticable difference, especially the moment they go 6-7 again. We did that with "VT" players - what would ODU's roster do? 2-10? 1. the talent levels aren't bama vs. VT... VT has better players yes, but not by some huge disparity across the board. Give me their safeties this year as a matter of fact. You are fooling yourself if you think a slight dip in talent would be noticeable in terms of fan engagement. It hasn't stopped VT fans as the talent has slipped big time year over year the past 15 years.
We sold out due to preseason hype, not on-field success. Ticket sales mainly take place before the product on the field diminishes.
Was the pre-season hype based on the 7-6 record from the preceding year, or based on all the returning players
You are talking about the fanbase justifying D2 portal offers here. You don't think a roster with less 3 stars on it wouldn't be "hyped" by VT fans? This is the same fan base that lauds FCS transfers.
I didn't spend the last 5 and a half years seeing you regurgitate the same "ODU Sucks we should cakewalk them" take a million times just to let you get away with saying there's no functional difference between their roster and ours and that the Hokie fanbase literally wouldn't care about having a team that actually sucks
I think you are kind of making his point for him. We have literally sucked bad enough to get beat by ODU recently. And still (mostly) fill Lane while its happening. The fans are there for the university much more than they are the players (aside from random, mostly one-offs here and there), hence if you trade rosters, product on the field stays about the same and fan engagement does too. I think that's DC's general point about throwing as much money as possible to get the absolute best players/coaches etc. is that there is no incentive to do otherwise. Hell, cheat as much as you want, everyone gets away with it anyways. Why? Cause it wins football games. And that's the most important thing.
ODU does suck. And we should cake walk them. We just don't have the horses for that, as much as it pains me to put that in to words. But we are getting what we pay for apparently.
If anyone thinks fan engagement around VT is the same in 2025 that it was in e.g. 2005 then their head is in the sand
Then why was 2024 the first sell out year since 2012?
Edit - FTR I do not disagree that engagement is down across the board (both this message board and in general) - just wondering what point you are aiming to make? That player movement buoyed our profile and boosted ticket sales last year?
Fan engagement started slipping in the late Frank years, rallied a bit when we went to the ACCCG under Fuente, slipped when he slipped, and rallied last year when we had a lot of talented underclassmen and a lot of talented vets all returning (some when we didnt expect them to) with a reason to belief the team could collectively take a step forward. It didn't happen.
Better metric for demand as a proxy for engagement is the get-in price of home games (a sliding scale) rather than whether it was a sell out or not (binary)
Because people had hope and wanted to dream. But in 2005, the entire season was sold out before it started by season ticket holders for the most part. We weren't selling tickets week to week.
People forget that VT was legitimately a national brand for the early part of the 2000s. We may try to downplay it, but those Vick years absolutely vaulted us to the top of mainstream sports for a short period, and we completely squandered the opportunity to capitalize on it.
seriously. absolutely braindead and asinine to think that the fan engagement around the program right now hasn't dropped off in the last 15-20 years from where it was and not to think that consistently mediocre teams hasn't caused that, and that having a consistently actually-bad team wouldn't knock it back even more. how many comments of "just win" have we made around here for years
We sell out games now because of promos, discounted tickets, and mini-plans to buy the highest demand tickets. Back then, any game was an instant sell out, no questions asked. Didn't matter if it was a nooner on Saturday against Arkansas St or a game in 90k FedEx Field, the games would sell out at full ticket price with a healthy secondary market clamoring to get in. You put VT in those same situations now and without the school buying some of those tickets or significantly discounting prices just to grease the numbers, I genuinely don't think we'd sell them out. Back then, VT annually participated in Nike promotional campaigns because we were a national brand. Nowadays the demand is so poor, Nike doesn't even bother to include us in their regional campaigns.
I mean hell, the VT fan websites all needed to go subscription based to keep the lights on because reduced traffic crushed the bottom line. Fan engagement is absolutely worse than it was back then.
I've said ODU sucks because they have- check notes- sucked. period. That is a fact. Just like BC hoops sucks this year- absolute fucking sucks. It's not that hard man. Call me when ODU is good. Please. The point you are ignoring is hokie fans cheering for kids in OM - they will. Even if we have a class of 12 3 stars instead of 18...
Not gonna lie- I totally read this at first as "even if we have a class of 12 year olds instead of 18 year olds' LOL
They might have been as effective as some of players last year.
We were not sold out before the season began. We sold individual game tickets all season long. That meant people were still buying tickets after our horrible start.
I'd gladly take ODU's roster and play in a league with other regional teams with similar rosters that were made up of student athletes that largely planned to stay at VT until graduation or bigger and better things. We wouldn't' be competitive with the best in the sport, but we aren't anyway. Let the pro's play each other in a new league and leave college football for college student athletes. Pay the athletes if needed and let them have jobs and endorsements if they want, but their participation is tied to being a student for their university. I'm 100% on board with this versus what we have now, which is a team with 25% roster turnover every year whose primary reason for being here is because we're the highest bidder.
So you'd rather VT compete in the sunbelt than the ACC?
Maybe this will change one day, but not any time soon.
BOOM! This is the comment. I get that fans want it to feel like the players are regular college students. I get that that image is part of the allure of college sports - it's that I was touring college campus, and I had a connection a VT - maybe it was pragmatic, or maybe it was something a little magical that I can't explain, so I went there - and football recruit X had the exact same experience, and that's cool. I get it, truly, I do.
My opinion is that it's the schools, the conferences, the coaches, and the networks who broke that reality. Amateurism was the tool that the powers that be used to perpetuate the illusion that these were just kids playing fancy intramural sports. But eventually the lie got too big. Athletic departments making 8-9 figures in revenue, coaches making 8 figures annually, realignment and nationalization ruining geographic rivalries... players didn't break the system; their amateurism was just the last remaining connection to the old way.
Everyone wants college athletes to be like John Ed, but they all forget that It Never Rains in Tiger Stadium takes place over a half century ago.
I get that fans want to return to a more innocent time. The players aren't the ones to blame though. This has been a slow moving coup driven by opportunistic networks and greedy university administrators. Players semi-professionalizing was an inevitability.
I don't know what else to say. I'm not trying to argue I've just been trying to articulate a point.
I don't think very many (if any) people have a problem with players getting paid. Players getting actual NIL dollars was way overdue...if someone was willing to pay Johnny Manziel for an autographed helmet or jersey, he absolutely should have been able to make that money.
The problem that the current system has is:
(1) Zero transparency or regulation at all
(2)NIL being instantly transformed into pay for play and "NIL potential" being used in courts as an antitrust argument to make eligibility limits essentially a joke at this point.
(3) Not all players have NIL value--how do you determine who "deserves" what? The 3rd string LG doesn't make a dime for the University....sorry truth hurts. In those scenarios, the economic value that they are receiving in a Scholarship far outweighs their economic benefit.
(4) Despite the anecdotal "millions of dollars" schools are said to be making from College Football and Basketball, there is a vast difference between revenue and profits. As I posted above, Ohio State...a "Blue Blood" lost money this year. Arizona St. Athletic department was near broke reportedly, Maryland was in trouble several years ago, and Miami is siphoning money from their Healthcare system to fund Athletics. Doesn't paint a picture of an abundance of riches.
So while "nostalgia" is probably part of the vitriol towards NIL/pay for play, there are legitimate real-world concerns that many are glossing over for a "get yours" mentality.
If there is no consequence to going into debt then why wouldn't you? Has nothing to do with health/wealth. They'll make it back some how.
However if OSU went over budget, it's not NIL, that's the university and it spending not on students but on probably unnecessary shit. I would bet the football coaching staff and it's 23 coaches (not counting grad assistants) is a large large portion of that deficit.
Hey who doesn't like some Tuesday night MACtion? Usually some of the most fun games to watch and the only game in town on that night in season....
Nice to see this just as I start receiving SMS and email about "Giving Day."
Nothing will happen until we can get out of our ESPN contract. I would approach Amazon, Google, and X and work out a media deal with them and include the next 100 teams that aren't in the p2. With Google and X alone, you'd secure the eyeballs of the entire Internet which is where everything is going.
ESPN and fox are old media formats and to be honest, I think the p2 grab for more slots is to help ESPN and fox survive the horrible deals they made. If everybody else leaves, it will end ESPN as we know it.
You are not wrong on that. ESPN pushes the SEC so they can charge more for commercials during SEC games. They have to pay that bloated overpriced contract that they agreed to.
Texas cancelling their spring game. Why you ask? well so their players don't get poached for higher paying salaries of course. Another victim of NIL. What's a little pizza and laundry money? Fuck all of this. VT will cancel theirs soon too.
Looks Jim Phillips might have a spine?
If so, it's too little, and far too late.
lol I was gonna say, first of all, that ship has sailed. Secondly, I'll believe him having a spine the second any deal that actually benefits us is announced.
Is Tony Pettiti the former Pitt OL that blocked our guys into the ground with one hand? So that no skill fuck Walt Harris beat us a few times? Same guy? ( just checked- not the same guy that dominated us in empty Heinz field)
Nope, MLB exec
Also the Pitt guy we had zero chance of blocking on any down was Rob Pettiti.. lol I'm all over it.