Sources: Virginia Tech is expected to hire Penn State co-offensive coordinator and tight ends coach Ty Howle as the school's new offensive coordinator. He's expected to be the school's play caller as well.
https://x.com/i/status/1998402299081732298
Not sure how a feel about this... With all the money we supposedly have thought we'd get something more outside the box.
I guess in Franklin we trust! π€
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Boy this seems really underwhelming with how much money we reportedly are having to build this staff you go with a first time OC and rehire-Pry (which also seems to be a money saving move).
I don;t think this is a money saving move as much as it is Franklin's MO. He has always brought his guys with him.
I mean cool he's been successful but we had reportedly a top 10 or so salary pool for assistants and these first two hires don't scream top 10 assistants
Please god dont let us do the classic "overpay for crap bc you have the cash"
Bah gawd, is that DCwilson's music?
Just saying that we make fun of the "rich" schools for spending a ton on 6-6 seasons and there's nothing to say that we can't end up in the same place ... money is a pre-requisite for success, not a guarantee
Failure is always an option
Not saying I agree with it, I actually very much agree with you. I was just saying that I was not surprised by the move given Franklin's record.
*top 10 by 2024 standards
It should still be enough to get someone with a better resume than this.
I agree. I don't believe these coordinator moves are driven by money. That is not to say they will work out but we need to trust he knows what he is doing. I mean that is why we hired him.
Maybe he's ponying up for the A&M DL coach and Trautwein? Would love to see the lines be a strength.
Kolby Crawford at VTScoop believes that Trautwein is going elsewhere, maybe the NFL, and it's more likely Moore is retained. He also said that there is legit smoke about ponying up for Sean Spencer from A&M.
I think your gut feel that these are money saving is incorrect. It's easy to be disappointed because with the increased budget we wanted a more exciting hire. It's clear Franklin has a different vision. I do agree with the sentiment that I hope we didn't pay above market value for someone with a thin resume. I will say that the flashy hire for OC has crashed and burned for a lot of schools in the past. Just look at Matt Canada's resume.
Incredibly thin resume from an OC + play calling perspective.
Really disappointing.
We'll have good TEs.
Are we allowed to pass to them again?
No no, this is VT β the TEs throw the passes here.
Considering I don't think I heard a VT TE name called since September, that would be a big improvement.
I don't know. Guess it depends on if we have a real QB coach that can improve a VT QB. You know, like we haven't had in what, 20 or 30 years?
Gosnell and Saint Germain were hurt most of the year IIRC. Wimbush too. Hairston caught a touchdown one game.
TEs that will eventually be our new quarterbacks
Thamel reporting...so just be true :)
Franklin's offenses at Penn State generally leaned conservative, and their ceiling was QB dependent.
The only two seasons I remember thinking they had a notably fun/exciting offense with some real upside was 2016 and 2017. 2019 was pretty solid.
Outside of those two seasons with McSorely, they were typically not a great offense, which is fine. The defense and control still won a lot of games. We can get away with that to an even higher degree in the ACC.
Worth noting, it's good that his best offenses had a QB like McSorely. It's a lot easier to find a Trace McSorely in today's CFB than it is to find a real deal, elite passer.
I'd have to check but I'm not sure he was OC with mcsorely. Also they had a good running back at the time
He wasn't. It was Joe Moorhead. The stylistic profile of the offense has been consistent under Franklin throughout multiple OC's though. He wants to play a certain way.
Good point about level of competition in the ACC. Seems like Franklin is going with guys he knows can do the job to get VT up to an acceptable base line for him, and doesn't want to reinvent the wheel that got PSU to a place we'd all love to be.
Hopefully all these hires work out and if not he moves on quickly.
I think Franklin said it himself that the plays always work better when you have great players so this tracks. Franklin is more a Jimmys and Joes guy than an Xs and Os guy.
Exactly. His best offenses had Trace McSorely, a QB whose skillset complemented their super freak, Saquon Barkley, really well, and he was throwing to Chris Godwin and Mike Gesicki in 2016. Still productive without Godwin in 2017.
When they had the dudes, they produced.
So, Stinespring basically
I would take Stinespring's early 2000s offenses over Pry & Co's early 2020s offenses in a heartbeat. Having the right Jimmy's and Joes covers up a lot of poor x's and o's.
2002: QB Bryan Randall, QB Marcus Vick, RB Lee Suggs, RB Kevin Jones, WR Ernest Wilford, TE Jeff King
2003: Add Josh Morgan, David Clowney, Josh Hyman, Cedric Humes, Mike Imoh
2004: Add Eddie Royal, Sean Glennon, Brandon Ore
2005: Add Greg Boone
2007: Add Danny Coale, Tyrod Taylor, Darren Evans, Josh Oglesby
2008: Add Marcus Davis, Xavier Boyce, Dyrell Roberts, Jarrett Boykin, Ryan Williams
2009: Add Logan Thomas, DJ Coles
2010: Add David Wilson
ah, the days of Evans and Williams together...the 100 proof backfield.
Now those boys could play. Damn, who's cutting onions in here while we talking about the glory days? π
"So, Stinespring basically" AUGH!!!! Please, don't mention that name to me!
The Golden Age of Virginia Tech Football was the Stinespring era
Sad. But true.
It's one reason so many fans have been clamoring for an exciting, competent offensive coach. If we had Stinespring's recruits with an innovative offensive mind we'd be a big problem for everyone
And you can definitely out-talent people in the ACC easier than the Big 10 or SEC. Until FSU and Clemson figure their shit out, Miami is the only team with the talent and physicality similar to what you would face in those other conferences. Everyone else you can push around if you have the right guys.
I will be honest, I am more concerned with who is getting retained (if any) and who is brought in to coach QB.
Did he call plays at PSU? And if so, do we consider that a positive?
EDIT: remembered that Kotelnicki was calling plays at PSU.
PSU fan consensus on Reddit seems to be that they loved him as tight ends coach and wanted to retain him, but maybe not at the price of promotion to OC because he's untested there. Not seeing any negative reviews of his time at PSU.
I'm not sure I like this. Nobody up here was clamoring to keep him. Underwhelming
Letting this marinate some....the PSU TE room has a 5* and two 4*s (including a VA native) that I wouldn't hate coming down to Blacksburg.
Edit: just catching up on Kolby Crawfords reaction - he mentioned twice that its expected that he brings that TE room with him.
5* Luke Reynolds SO
4* Andrew Olesh FR
4* (composite) Matt Henderson (Powahtan) FR
4* Andrew Rappleyea SO
If he brings that room (or a good portion of it) then that explains a lot. That is a lot of potential talent and production.
If they can just bring Luke + 1. Watching Lukes highschool tape is insane the guy's the best athlete on the field by a mile. Lines up at QB and wide out and can make everyone miss and when they don't miss he just runs them over. Not sure if he's still running a 4.5 40 (since he's gained ~40lbs according to the PSU roster) but that would have been the fastest TE in the 2024 combine
Bringing Reynolds along would almost make this hire worth it alone. Former #1 TE croot. Giggling watching his hudl tape. First clip he ragdolls some poor defender.
https://www.hudl.com/video/3/13858388/6330e534dfe2a70500988d66
He also throws a nice ball if we're looking for the #1 TE -> QB pipeline.
Fun timestamps now that I've watched this video twice:
0:10 defender bounces 3 yards off of him
0:46 takes the slowest lobbed snap then for fun makes every defender on the field miss him for a 15yd first down
2:05 great catch....clearly 1 yard out of bounds
2:48 running a guy over for 1 extra yard and fun.
3:47 is for sure going to get sacked makes a wild 1 leg jump pass for a down field completion
4:33 on the run prayer throw and the WR makes a beckham catch
Reminds me of a more athletic Ryan Malleck.
Great we are going to hire a guy that will get paid less than UVA coordinators and will be expected to produce more. The more th I ngs change the more they stay the same.
A bit underwhelming considering the dream team we were coming up with in the TKP Builds out Franklin's Staff thread. However, it is refreshing to NOT have a first time OC and first time DC that's learning how to their job at the ACC level. Other than Montgomery, that's been our MO for a while.
Both our OC and DC have coordinator experience in the P2.
I'm not sure what people expected, but it sounds pretty good to me, and certainly a step up in experience from our recent hires.
HC: Nick Saban 2.0
OC: Joe Brady 2.0
DC: Bud Foster 2.0
ST: Frank Beamer 2.0
Why is that so hard, jeeze
/s
I mean, is that too much to ask?
There's also something to be said for continuity. To me, the "learning curve" has been flattened out with these two choices. These guys will hit the ground at sprint speed. If Ty bring the TE room with him, then holy smokes, what would our class rank be after they're factored in?
Feels a little underwhelming because it's basically Bowen 2.0. But in retrospect, Bowen probably worked out better than any of Pry's other hires. IMO the main issues he had were:
Given what we know on Franklin, it's a safe bet #3 is fixed. I'm semi-confident #1 is fixed because he has enough experience putting together coaching staffs. #2 IDK bc his game day struggles have been much lamented, but I don't think anyone ever accused PSU of being too cute.
I feel like fixing number 3 goes a long way to addressing most of our offensive woes
yeah most schemes work better if your guys are better. Who knew?!
There are plenty of star-laden teams that shit the bed every year, but it usually gives the offensive gameplan enough wiggle room to look competent. Which is what PSU's offenses under Franklin looked like pretty consistently.
I'm conflicted
one of the reasons I didn't want to hire Franklin right off the bat was because I didn't think he was going to have a very fun-to-watch brand of football. Ace recruiter, no doubt, but not really an Xs and Os guy. I came around to the idea of hiring him but these hires are reminding me why I was hesitant to begin with. If he gets the talent (and early signs indicate that he'll get the talent) I think his teams will be able to out-talent most of the ACC pretty regularly. I think ACC Championships will be the ceiling with Franklin and I'm fine with that because that's a much higher ceiling than we've had for the last 15 years.
But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for a more fun, productive offense paired with a fast, hard hitting defense. I'm very curious how Chesney does at UCLA - partly because I wanted VT to hire him.
At the end of the day, I guess it's in Franklin we trust. He has to win. He wants to win. If he doesn't, well, Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
Winning is fun. We may have forgotten that.
winning is fun, yeah. no doubt.
winning with exciting offense and suffocating defense is way more fun.
I'm not going to complain if we win a bunch of 3 hour long slogs 17-14 or something. But it would be a lot more fun to win a bunch of games 42-10.
After the last decade...let's just win. I'm not a beggar to need to the 42-10 wins (except loluva).
But 42-10 means consuming fewer TUMS.....
I'll take what I can get. Winning>Losing 100%
but it's also true that winning 42-10 is more fun than winning 17-14
A wise man once said, "They don't ask how, they ask how many?"
This is why I was on the Clawson train last coaching search
Before we freak out let's see how the rest of the staff is built out. One thing we have long said is that it would really help us to have a massive coaching staff and we are still in a good spot to be able to do that.
Better than Shane's hire of Kendal Briles tbh
Yeah that was sad to see. You really just don't have to hire a Briles. Shane's obviously on the hot seat... talk about a Faustian Bargain... and not necessarily even a very good one at that...?
Just to call out, Franklin and his staff had Penn State ranked inside the top 10 at some point in the season every year since 2016. In all but 3 of those years, including this one, they were never lower than 12th in the final poll, and nearly made the national championship last year.
In 2024, PSU total offense: 430.2 yds/g, 33.1 pts/g (13-3, national semis) - VT 367.8 yds/g, 28.2 pts/g (6-7)
In 2023, PSU total offense: 399.8 yds/g, 36.2 pts/g (10-3) - VT 391.5 yds/g, 29.5 (7-6)
In 2021, PSU total Defense: 353.0 yds/g, 17.3 pts/g (7th in nation) - VT 393.7 yds/g, 25.3 pts/g
In 2020 (COVID SEASON), PSU total Defense: 329 yds/g, 27.7 pts/g - VT 447.5 yds/g, 32.1 pts/g
In 2019, PSU total Defense: 346.8 yds/g, 16 pts/g (11-2 record) - VT 363.7 yds/g, 24.7 pts/g (8-5 record)
While there is more money being injected into the program, it's like getting a $5 an hour raise...yes, it's more than it was before, but it's still not what the big boss is making: or what Bammer and the blue bloods have at their disposal. Excitement doesn't equivalate to $100million overnight. It's not:
Also, from the numbers, not sure what kind of production we thought we would "buy" from an OC or DC. Of the P4 in 2024, Miami lead the way with 537.2 yds/g (10-3, 3rd overall in ACC.) Ohio State (champions) were at 429.4 yds/g...one yard less than PSU. Point being, the product on the field and the marks in the win column are the ultimate markers of success. With Ty, PSU had more production and scoring than we did. Something we've wanted for a few years. And with Brent as DC, the PSU defense was stingier with yards and points than VT...again, something we've wanted. Franklin has had top 10 teams with both of these guys, at different times, so it will be good to see them together as one. With everyone playing their individual roles, and seeing what they accomplished on signing day with only a few days/weeks under their belt to flip things in VT's favor (something that had been missing for decades) I am stoked to see what it all amounts to on the field. And am more excited for VT football than I've been in LONG time.
I consider this case closed. Well stated. Leg up!!!
Nicely stated.
If Franklin can pull this off at VT, I'll be estatic.
Know your role, do your job. Run em up and fill em in!
New brand of Hokies football.
At this point I am whelmed with this news. Was expecting a poach or a former OC for the job. Just not sure if they are pinching pennies so they can hire more assistants this year to get going.
At this point, until I see what is going to be the on field product I'm just in wait and see mode to how things go. Hope they start putting up Ws but have to wait till next season so even start to think about getting excited.
Also hope this doesn't turn into a CornFu thing.
Eh...again, mixed feelings. Trust the process. But he really reminds me of (and looks similar to) Tyler Bowen. Also first-time OC...
I thought Bowen was adequate. And he was smart enough to jump off the sinking ship and go work for a natty contender in OSU this season.
First-time coordinator doesn't bother me with an experienced HC. First time HC Pry hiring two first-time coordinators was egregious.
Bowen definitely got the most out of the offense and personnel, but he also was responsible for us hitching our wagon to Drones. Bad eval.
Bowen may have been the best OC we've had in decades, but he didn't get the most out of the personnel. Some games yes, but not season long. Lane was underutilized even with a spotty QB, Tuten wasn't given the ball in several games, and the rest of the receivers and TEs were not featured enough. Obviously Drones and Wells weren't great, but even with that the skill position players weren't capitalized on often enough.
How much development is a coordinator responsible for vs the individual position coaches? Bowen I think was good a developing schemes that the player we had could run (did take awhile for him to figure it out, but after he did, was pretty effective behind a horrible line - something he inherited). I would think individual position coaches develop players, coordinators come up with schemes the players you have can be successful running. So, seems to me Bowen was successful.
In James Franklin I trust.
I am okay with this hire. I know that CFB is a game where comfort is everything, so hiring someone Franklin worked with before is not surprising. This guy seems like a bright up and comer, and understands Franklin's expectations.
I also hope we don't become Penn State lite. Franklin was fired for a reason, and trying to replicate the entire PSU operation won't lead to him breaking through and winning a "big game". To be fair, VT has to get back to a big game first.
We are in wait and see mode. Hopefully this guy has a high ceiling and does well.
I'd be good with that. College Football Playoffs last year, ranked #2 coming into the season and started it with a tight overtime loss to a team that is currently in the playoffs. College football is a tough game and lots of programs have lots of resources. If we can do what Penn State has done over the past few years, then I would be ecstatic. Winning against middle and lower programs and having a chance against the powerhouses is all any program should hope for in the modern era. That gives an opportunity every 4/5 years to have a run at the playoffs.
I have similar feelings about this as I do the Pry situation.
On one hand, this feels a little like Stiney 2.0... As we all know, Stiney was a great recruiter and an excellent OL/TE coach. One of the best in the business when that was his job. Then he got promoted and quickly showed us that he wasn't cut out for the play caller role. Only time will tell with this hire.
On the other hand, like Pry, this screams continuity. And I think continuity, at least in the early stages of this rebuild, will be paramount to James Franklin not being overly burdened with certain nuances of leadership within the staff. I can appreciate the approach.
Not exactly an exciting resume...thinner than Bowen's when he was hired by Pry.
I want this to work but the feeling I am getting in the OC/DC hires is awful similar to 2021..."oh...well...uh...okay"
Sure...im Franklin we trust, but I also remember "in Pry we trust"---how'd that one turn out?
The OC hire may be similar to Bowen, but he wasn't a terrible OC. In '22, he had no talent to work with. The offense did okay in 23 and 24. Kind of share your "...OK I guess", but it could work out.
For DC though, Pry seems to know his stuff. Better than Marve by a mile. Pry could just be a classic of "one level too high in an org" to be successful, but he was a good DC
time will tell.
I don't see how you can look at those numbers by year and say that isn't "good".
Yeah, he ain't Kirby Smart at 'Bama or Bud Foster.... But there are top 10 years in there.
I understand and somewhat agree with your hesitation on how it kinda yo-yos though
Agree. Top 10 D 3 out of 5 years is not something we have seen in a while.
Also, remember there is context. If we played really crappy competition, our defense would likely look a lot better. Pry was putting together top 10 defenses playing against Big 10 teams.
If we put together that caliber of defense, we should do well in the ACC.
I'm not necessarily saying he's not good. But there's a chance he's pyrite. Penn States defense was good before he got there and better after he left. He didn't ruin it, in fairness. But with Penn states recruiting and big ten opponents (not known for explosive offense) the rankings might be misleading. That's all I'm saying. I hope he's great. I don't know that he is.
I mostly agree with you.
I talk myself back from the ledge like this. Bowen (OC) likely would have done way better with better players. Pry (DC) demonstrably did much better with better players (at Penn State).
So, all else being equal, if we had top 30 recruiting classes we probably win 9 games instead of 6.
Franklin has already shown that he can get better players than we've had in a decade.
So with Franklin's recruiting, we probably will manage 9 to 10 wins more often than not even with (perhaps?) less than stellar coordinators. They're not going to be playoff caliber coordinators, in all likelihood, but if they make VT competitive in the ACC again that's a big improvement from where we've been.
Personally I want more. I want VT to be dominant enough in the ACC that they get a seat at the big boy table in 2030. I'm not certain these are the coaches to get us there but I'm at least hopeful that Franklin will drag us into the modern era and elevate our floor considerably. That's just going to have to be good enough. I'll take anything that's better than what we've had the last 10 years. Beggers can't be choosers. Or, so I've been told.
I'll wait to see how the staff shapes up. Wouldn't be shocked if Franklin brought in a co-OC/playcaller as well, as his been his MO in the past.
I think the DC and OC hires so far have been tepid. No splashes. Nothing to really get excited about. I'm not really sure you can make a great argument that they're awful hires either.
so help me God, if Stu Holt retains his role on STs....
That's where i am on this -- need to see who is retained and who replaces them. There's potential to have really high ceiling on the coaching staff as a whole by going in on elite position coaches. Different skill sets for different roles and all that
I think the line coaches will tell for how good this coaching staff is. If JMFF goes out and gets Spenser and Trautwein, I'll be ecstatic. Anyone else, I'll evaluate based on who it is.
We're waiting on the splash ST coach hire: Shane Beamer. /s
I am now getting increasingly antsy regarding the rest of the Staff....if any one or a comibination of:
Stu Holt, Derek Jones, Prioleau (sorry but Safety play was horrid), Quinn are back on Staff, I am going to officially go from excited to bordering on pessimistic.
Rumor is Price is going to take an off-field Position and Siefkies and Monty I think speak for themselves.
I am ambivalent about Mines (not sure he's much of a developer) and Brooks I would generally like back ( I doubt Seider leaves ND, but would take him over Brooks).
Unfortunately you can add Adibi to this list.
Frankly, no one from the defensive staff should be retained. I'm fine with Price in an off field role but the defense stunk out loud and the increased budget (and wildly underwhelming OC hire) needs to fund better position coaches or I'm going to be more than pessimistic.
The interior DL, where we had talent, was pretty good. I'd have no problem with Price staying as DL coach, save for the rumors about Spencer coming in.
Rumors that Price is dealing with health stuff, that's the primary driver for moving him to an analyst role
Should have clarified that I have also heard the same, would agree with LBT that bringing him back as an on-field coach would be fine/good but it sounds like that's already not happening.
I'm ok if Price stays as a co-DL, especially if Spencer is the other guy. I don't love Price as the sole DL coach. He's been too inconsistent in recruiting, development, and production, but not so inconsistent that he shouldn't be coaching at all. Very mixed bag and could use some help.
Kolby Crawford said he isn't hearing anything about Brooks being retained, but says Mines might be. I'm with you, I'm ambivalent to anti bringing Mines back vs. picking up Dyrell Roberts or Zohn Burden. Burden was just as good a recruiter IMO and a better developer. Seider is the only RB coach in the country I'd take over Brooks right now. Tbf I don't know any other RB coaches. But a DeMatha guy who's an excellent recruiter, specifically in the DMV, paired with Franklin's recruiting prowess and who has the RBs as probably our best position group is someone you should keep. If you don't keep him, he will go to one of our recruiting rivals and directly compete against us for high school players.
What if we move Mines to TE coach. Hagans comes in as WR coach
One UVA alum is enough IMO, but please move Mines to TE. We don't have to worry about them catching passes that aren't thrown to them anyway.
Eh, Hagans hasn't been great at PSU. Receivers have been one of their weaknesses the past few years. And considering that Mines hasn't developed well, I'm not sure he'd develop TEs well either. I'm just of the opinion that our series of Moorehead, Wiggins, and Burden was far superior to Mines or Hagans. Obviously 2/3 of those greatness has been validated with Moorehead in the NFL for a decade now and winning a Super Bowl and Wiggins winning national championships at Alabama and now possibly becoming the OC at A&M.
I haven't watched enough Penn State recently to have an informed opinion but I did find this perspective from Sekrah on the 247 boards to be interesting:
We're hiring a TE coach as OC.
Not even the spring game in the books and it's over from the comments.
Without O&M glasses these are pretty poor hires. To me it likely underscores poor process, or not taking the job/the ACC seriously.
This is stuff where the coach will look back at a presser in a few years and say "maybe it wasn't a good idea to bring the recently fired head coach back into the same locker room" and "maybe it wasn't a good idea to hire a guy who hasn't been solely responsible for an offense and calling plays to be the offensive coordinator".
No this isn't some you learn was a bad idea in 3 years and say "oh shucks." It's a bad idea RIGHT NOW. The program is spending way too much money for this
Largely agree....
Who else was looking to hire Ty Howle as an O.C.???? And with Campbell coming in, the dude was probably out of the job--seems like a mirror of Marve on the opposite side of the ball.
And defensively, I find it cognitively hard to understand how we can agree almost as a consensus that the entire defensive staff should be let go, yet we feel comfortable rehiring the guy who hired them all?
Yes, Pry was successful at Penn State. But he also rode the coattails of Shoop and everyone after him did just as well if not better statistically.
The entire idea of the Pry regime seemed to be just recreating Penn State at Virginia Tech. It went to shit quickly. I'm beginning to be afraid that the idea now is to do the same thing just with Franklin leading instead.
Look I'm tired of reaching for reasons to be excited about VT football. "Knows the system", "understands the vision," ect., ect.
Can he scheme and coach or not?
For Howle, its pretty much a complete unknown, for Pry all the recent results aren't just subpar, they are in the toilet.
Again, this is a university and athletic department trying to reinvest in the program and convince all of us to get behind it, including financially.
I'm having a lot of trouble finding a reason to reach into my wallet with these two hires.
I'll start by admitting that I don't love the hires. I can see how this could workout, but I'm tired of VT making coordinator hires and having to imagine how they can workout. I want us to make a hire where I can reasonably expect it to work out.
But, while I don't love the hires, I think you're swinging too far in the opposite direction.
Ty Howle is not Marve. Howle has 2 years OC experience learning under Andy K (not gunna try to spell that last name), who did great at Memphis, and was then saddled with Drew Allar. I do think that Franklin has missed at the QB position for the last decade (since McSorely). I think that's a big flaw of Franklin's, but it happens regardless of OC.
Your concern is valid. That said, some people are good coordinators/bad HCs. Pry's coordinator record is pretty good by most measures (though I do think VPIHokie had a good post about how Pry's top five top 20 defenses might have been under achieving).
This is the overall sentiment. Truth be told, neither I, you, or anyone else on this Board know how these hires will work out. Pry may have a renaissance as a DC and Howle may be an up-and-coming genius but the need to squint and move goalposts to make cases for VT's O.C. and D.C. hires is just all too familiar of a feeling....
Let's think about the past few:
--Siefkies: "NFL guy" with a new scheme, look at his tape from Wofford.....ooooh Wofford...
--Hamilton: knows the "VT culture" nevermind he was inexperienced and didn't run a scheme in that was similar to Foster
--Cornelson: Co-OC at Memphis, who we instantly gave all the credit "Fuente's right-hand man"
--Bowen: another "NFL guy", previous experience at Fordham, knows "Pry's culture"
--Marve: knows "what Pry wants"; young, knows "the system" ect.
Edit: shit I forgot the best one:
Loefler: "friends with Tom Brady" although Scot was an OK coach overall
As someone who had the opportunity to sit in the VT staff room with Justin Hamilton and watch film for about 8 hours with him on a coaches visit, I can tell you Justin Hamilton was incredibly smart and knew the modern game better than Bud, he told me and the other 2 Richmond coaches in the room that there would be times in practice they'd script RPOs and Bud had no counters to the glance or slant routes, and Bud would never get it fixed. JHam was incredibly smart and ran a very similar defense to what we ran at Richmond including having an RPO "bonus player" that helped account for glance routes. I agree with all the other coaches you mentioned but I don't want to hear JHam slander, he was awesome to me that day and knew his stuff in terms of coaching a modern defense.
No slander whatsoever.
He wasn't put in an enviable position... taking over for a legend, coming into a coaching staff already starting to feel the heat, and trying to change up a system. Add getting hit by Covid pretty much as soon as he was taking over.
He clearly had a vision, recruited players meant to fit his scheme. Maybe it would have worked out long term.
But we have to also be honest and admit there were moments when his inexperience showed...the end of the Liberty game being a prime example.
Do I think JHam was a bad coach? No.
Would I have rather had Barry Odom come in and JHam learn under him temporarily? Absolutely.
makes you wonder who Chesney would have hired if he had gotten the job
I think he would've 100% brought Dean Kennedy with him. I honestly would've liked Franklin to hire Kennedy. He started under Mullen and has had prolific offenses at JMU.
Some fans want to be miserable and will look for any reason to stay that way.
Some of the criticisms are valid and worth noting. A lot of it feels like they have decided that if candidates are willing to work for VT they can't possibly be good anyway.
New head coach who wants to do Penn State at Virginia Tech, two poor coordinator hires but excitement around recruiting and signing the best recruiting class in several years.
Is this at all familiar π€
lol if you increment everything by 100 maybe. Our class is significantly better than Pry's...Pry is significantly more qualified than Marve. TBD on the OC.
Okay but when we were looking for a new coach, was the most likely path of success to you "juice up the Pry thing to the max".
It's a fair question, because you can actually make a case for it. We had the team to go 12-0 in 2024, we really weren't that far from it, in fact I believe a much better coach probably would've got there. I don't think it's sustainable to evaluate the portal that well but this is the kind of peaks that can be reached with this strategy.
In my opinion under Pry, the issues went down to the foundation. What Tech has said is basically, no the design is correct, we're just going to put another foreman in charge and use more money to buy better materials and better workers. And we're even bringing the old foreman back to run part of the project. I question with that strategy, how much different is your project going to look from the last one? What exactly are the improvements being made that will make it successful? Was it just the quality of player and leadership that was the issue last time? 2024 seems to cut against that.
Franklin has a decade+ of successful teams using this strategy, a lot of it with Pry in the same role and roller coaster of different OCs I don't think there's anything to panic about. Pry tried to replicate it with 1/4 of the resources and knowledge and none of the experience. There are parallels you can draw but they're certainly not on the same level.
To your point even if we can use Prys ability to scout the portal and Franklins ability to build high school relationships we'll be in positions where our roster is consistently better ( more importantly deeper) than 2024.
You are judging Pry as a poor coordinator hire using his performance as HC as the criteria and not his previous performance as an actual DC.
Let's be fair, no matter who is OC or DC, the fan base will blast them at the first three and out or 85 yard TD run. /s
Great recruiter and TE coach but I'd prefer to have an experienced play caller. Apparently VT is just completely allergic to having an experienced OC no matter who the head coach is
Re-upping the list I made last offseason when we were looking for a coordinator. A lot of names in here I would've been excited about. I would've preferred Holmon Wiggins if we're going with a first time playcaller, but he probably just got a promotion to A&M's OC next year since Collin Klein is leaving for KState.
I'll trust Franklin, but I'll also believe it when I see it. Two things as I try to convince myself to be positive about this: 1) Sekrah thinks Howle is going to do great. 2) Franklin's recent struggles on offense coincided with him hiring big-name outside coordinators, maybe hiring someone internal will have better results.
However, there's still some PTSD similarities to Bowen. First time playcaller, great recruiter, TE coach/former OL, feels like the HC wanted him on staff for his recruiting but he would only come if he could call plays. Bowen wasn't a terrible OC, in fact he might have been the best one we've had in decades, but that's an extremely low bar and his inconsistency and inability to develop a QB hamstrung this team.
Here's the specific tweet by @Sekrah:
Sooo Tyler Bowen. Which is fine, Bowen did okay (when he was forced to adjust his offense after losing the first 3-4 games each year).
Bowen never had an O line either, which will hopefully be fixed. Can we get some of the elite skill players Bowen had for his best offenses? If Tuten ran behind a real line 2024 is a top offense in the country.
My point is success isn't impossible. But it's also not at all guaranteed. And this probably isn't my favorite strategy of getting there
To be fair, bringing Kirby Smart and his entire staff, Cignetti and his entire, or Day and his entire staff doesn't guarantee anything either.
Coaching changes, especially when the HC is replaced is a huge question mark.
The questions around Pry are will return to his DC days success-wise or his HC days and what impact will his retention as DC have on the players who played this year who are returning?
The questions around Howle are, how much did he learn/develop at PSU and who can he bring with him?
We won't know the answer to 3 of those 4 questions until a year (or more) from now.
I think the biggest flaw in the Bowen comparison is that Franklin has built two successful programs and knows what it takes and the type of assistants he needs and how to get the most out of them.
Pry watched Franklin do that but could not replicate it.
Until proven otherwise, I'll choose to trust Franklin's judgement
This is true. But we're paying for something closer to the level of these 3 coaches. And getting something a whole lot closer to what we just had with Pry
I know you hate the Franklin hire, and as much as you hate Pry you don't want to see him anywhere near the program, but JMFF has 10+ more years successful HC experience than Pry does (it could be argued that it's 14 years, given that Pry had 0 years of success.)
We're paying well below those 3 coaches salaries for JMFF and we're getting significantly better coaches (on paper) than Pry and his staff.
If the DC's resume didn't have Pry's name at the top but all the rankings and stats that he put up at PSU, everyone would be over the moon for him.
Except look at the recruiting class Franklin just put together. And Pry, as DC had top 10 defenses against Big10 competition. Those two things alone make it nothing at all like under Pry.
We get it, you aren't happy, but it's also not the same thing as we just had. Not even close.
We've got a lot more money and should have a better staff for sure, for recruiting especially.
It's still much closer to what we had before than it is to Georgia, Ohio State or Indiana
No, it's a lot closer to what Penn State had.
I'll take it.
How are top ten defenses closer than what we had before than to Ohio State, Georgia, or Indiana? Because that's what Pry had a number of years as DC.
Pry was already our DC for a year don't forget. And his defenses were with super elite Penn State talent, from national recruiting not just VA and PA. I don't see our personnel being that good. (Also think Big Ten defenses are overinflated and
That said I don't anticipate defense being the main issue. Offense will probably be vastly behind those other places.
Pry was NOT our DC for a year. Are you saying that Marve's first year, because I already addressed that - he gave Marve the vision, helped him a little bit, and then by mid-year it was solely Marve.
And now you're moving the goal posts. You talked about him being a poor choice, but, what, he's good, but only if he has elite talent? So, what you're looking for is a DC that played in the SEC or Big 10, put up top 10 defenses, but was at one of the bottom tier schools with much lower-end talent? Sorry dude, doesn't exist, or that dude would have gotten pulled immediately by a top 10 program already.
Following the thread it says we turned down the ECU OC, who preferred us. Which if true is interesting.
Raise the talent level and it'll all be just fine. If you look at the top teams, their players have to make incredible individual plays every single game to consistently win. There are not many teams that can rely on drawing up wide open TD plays. If Franklin trusts this guy, then I trust him. Just bring on the stud players.
I look at it like this: if we had poached Franklin from Penn State while he was still head coach there, wouldn't we expect him to bring a big chunk of his staff with him? I don't think these rumored hires are that surprising (other than the awkwardness around Pry). Franklin will probably bring in as many PSU coaches as he can, maybe keeping a few VT people for recruiting or continuity purposes, and then fill gaps where needed.
VT is a rebuilding project, not (yet) a playoff contender who can attract a dream team of assistant coaches.
Still want to see who the QB coach will be.
Does he have eligibility left?
He can probably afford a lawyer to make some eligibility
I'm at risk of being a doomer but I hate this too.
He's had one year of experience, and nothing from PSUs QB play last year suggests he's going places.
As waterboy? You absolutely cannot have seen Drew Allar play this year and think, "I wanna hire the guy that coached him."
I'm with you guys. I want as many experienced, proven guys as we can get, especially at QB coach. Trace ain't it. Don't shoot the messenger.
I have less apprehension about Howle than Pry. Franklin is being paid a lot of money to do a good job. He wants to win and is bringing in people to help him do so.
That said, for some fans he is effectively stacking firewood under his chair for next season.
ITT: everybody we hire is terrible
Who are the hires we should be getting instead? What makes them ideal candidates?
I think "we" wanted somebody who has a body of work proving their ability to be a high quality OC or DC in the P4.
However, all of those people are getting hired as HCs in G5 or are solidly locked in on P4 top tier teams.
I would have been fine with grabbing coordinators from competitive G5 programs.
I'm not expecting us to get Glenn Schumann to leave UGA for VT, but if we hired UNT's OC or something it would have probably passed the smell test better than Howle, IMO.
(I picked UNT at random based on their SP+, I know nothing about Jordan Davis, just using him for illustrative purposes)
Wikipedia already has him as our OC...
Regarding the salary pool for assistants, if we are going to get more support and recruiting staff to allow the coaches to coach, then I'm 100% on board. No next to nothing about this cat, but again I trust JF to make up his own staff
Has anybody here done an analysis of whether HC hires actual go and try to hire who they think is the actual best, most qualified coordinators, or do they hire people they already know. I'd be willing to wager it's like 90% people they know, and not until the coordinators fail or get hired away do they potentially reach out for someone they don't know.
ALSO, I'm seeing a lot on here about OCs not developing QBs (even though they were a position coach for different positions). How much is it a coordinator job to develop a QB? I would think it's like 95-99% the job of the QB coach.
Looking at the NCAA coaches who have been hired since 2000, with a minimum of 180 career wins, in the FBS:
Ohio State: Jim Tressell: Hired 2001. OC: Jim Bollman (Miami of Ohio 1979-1980, Youngstown St DC 1986-1988, Youngstown State OC 1989-1990) DC Mark Dantonio (Ohio State GA 1983-1984, Youngstown State DC 1986-1990)
Florida: Steve Spurrier: Hired 2005. OC: None DC: Tyrone Nix (No previous affiliation)
WVU Rich Rodriguez: Hired 2001: OC: None, DC: Phil Elmassian (No previous affiliation)
Michigan Rich Rodriguez: Hired 2008: OC Calvin Magee (WVU RB/OC 2001-2007), DC: Scott Shafer (No previous affiliation)
Arizona Rich Rodriguez: Hired 2012: OC Calvin Magee (see above), Co-OC Rod Smith (WVU QB coach 2007, Mich QB coach 2008-2010), DC Jeff Casteel (WVU 2001-2007 DL/DC)
Eastern Michigan: Chris Creighton: Hired 2014: OC Kalen DeBoer (No previous affiliation) DC Brad McCaslin (Drake DC 2012-2013)
Clemson: Dabo Swinney: Hired 2009: OC Billy Napier (Clemson 2003-2004 GA, 2006-2009 TE), DC Kevin Steele (No Previous affiliation)
Alabama: Nick Saban: Hired 2007: OC Major Applewhite (No Previous Affiliation), DC Kevin Steele (No Previous Affiliation)
North Carolina; Mack Brown: Hired 2019: OC Phil Longo (No Previous Affiliation), Co-DC Jay Bateman (No Previous Affiliation), Co-DC Tommy Thigpen (Played for Mack Brown 1989-1992)
Temple: K. C. Keeler: Hired 2025: OC Tyler Walker (No previous affiliation), DC Brian Smith (No Previous Affiliation)
This is great - thanks!!! It looks like there is a decent mix of previous affiliations and not, plus this is at the time of hiring and not their entire tenure (which I'm sure gets uglier). I mean the Saban coaching tree is something I've heard of before.
Anyway, pry was a successful DC for Franklin previously. As others have said, if he'd been HC somewhere else, I think people would probably be happier with the hire.
Howle, as I said previously, Franklin just got fired, but wants to win. A recently fired coach probably isn't going to just arbitrarily go with someone he doesn't feel pretty comfortable with and doesn't think is just going to get him fired again in a couple years.
While it doesn't blow my hair back (and not just because I'm follicly challenged), I'm going to wait and see how it pans out. It will be interesting to see just how much of the offense comes and not just people from the TE room. That will likely be another telling metric.
Looking at coaches hired since 2000 in the FBS with a winning percentage over .735
Fresno St Kalen DeBoer: Hired 2020: OC Ryan Grubb (Sioux Falls OL 2007-2009), DC William Inge (Indiana ST 2019)
Washington: Kalen DeBoer: Hired 2022: Brought both Grubb and Inge
Alabama: Kalen DeBoer: Hired 2024: Co-OC Nick Sheridan (Indiana 2019 TE, Washington 2022-23 TE), Co-OC JaMarcus Shephard (Washington 2022-23 AHC/WR) (brought in Grubb in 2025) Co-DC Kane Wommack (Indiana 2019 DC) Co-DC Maurice Linguist (No Previous Affiliation)
Bowling Green: Urban Meyer: Hired 2001: OC Gregg Brandon (No Previous Affiliation) DC Tim Beckman (No Previous Affiliation)
Utah: Urban Meyer: Hired 2003: OC Mike Sanford (1997-98 Notre Dame QB coach), DC Kyle Whittingham (No Previous Affiliation)
Florida: Urban Meyer: Hired 2005: OC Dan Mullen (1999-2000 Notre Dame GA, 2001-2002 Bowling Green QB, 2003-2004 Utah QB) Co-DC Greg Mattison (1997-2000 Notre Dame DC) Co-DC Charlie Strong (1996-1998 Notre Dame DL)
Ohio State: Urban Meyer: Hired 2012: OC Tom Herman (No Previous Affiliation), DC Ed Warinner (No Previous Affiliation)
Indiana: Curt Cignetti: Hired 2024: Co-OC Mike Shanahan (2016 IUP WR coach, 2017-18 Elon WR, 2019-2013 JMU WR/OC) Co-OC Tino Sunseri (2021-23 JMU QB), DC Bryant Haines (2014-15 IUP DL, 2017-18 Elon LB, 2019-2023 JMU DC)
Ohio State: Ryan Day: Hired 2019: OC Kevin WIlson (No Previous Affiliation), Co-DC Greg Mattison (2005 Florida DC), Co-DC Jeff Hafley (No Previous Affiliation)
Georgia: Kirby Smart: Hired 2016: Co-OC Jim Chaney (No Previous Affiliation), Co-OC James Coley (2004 LSU GA, 2006 Miami Dolphins), DC Mel Tucker (2015 Alabama DB)
Oklahoma: Lincoln Riley: Hired 2017 Co-OC Cale Gundy (Oklahoma 2015-16 WR), Co-OC Bill Bedenbaugh (2003-2006 Texas Tech RB/OL, 2015-16 Oklahoma OL), DC Mike Stoops (2015-2016 Oklahoma DC)
USC: Lincoln Riley: Hired 2022: OC Josh Henson (No Previous Affiliation) DC Alex Grinch (Oklahoma 2019-21 DC)
Kansas State: Chris Klieman: Hired 2019: OC Courtney Messingham (1999 Missouri State WR/TE, 2017-18 ND State OC), DC Scottie Hazelton (2011 ND State DC)
So that's 23 coaches, including duplicates, who have won at the FBS level
16 OC/Co-OCs had previous experience with the hired HC
9 OC/Co-OCs had no previous experience with the hired HC
15 DC/Co-DCs had previous experience with the hired HC
12 DC/Co-DCs had no previous experience with the hired HC
Steve Spurrier (FL), Rich Rodriguez (WVU), Nick Saban (Alabama), K.C. Keeler (Temple), Urban Meyer (Bowling Green), Urban Meyer (Ohio State) did not have any experience with their coordinators prior to their first year at their respective programs. (Maybe we should take a look at Keeler)
I think this hire (and the Pry hire) are completely about familiarity. He went away from who he knew for his last OC and DC at PSU, and that ended up with him losing his job.
He trusts these guys to be able to deliver what he previously accomplished at PSU before Pry left.
Last two or three OCs and every DC since Pry left. Knowles hasn't performed to the level of Pry, Diaz, or Allen.
Not a mind-blowing hire, but I am willing to give at least 1 season of "wait and see" β I trust Franklin to see trouble if it arises and make personnel changes when/if they are needed, as a head coach should do. If he can't do that (like our previous two coaches couldn't) then he doesn't deserve to be our head coach. If he can do that, well then we will get a good OC eventually if we don't already have one.
Also I'm weird maybe but I'm excited to have Pry back in the fold in what has previously been his position of strength. If he and Franklin are cool with it, I'm cool with it.