The banter about the RB position got started over in another thread, so I wrote an abridged novel to go a bit deeper into the subject.
Frank has come forward and said he wants the running back competition down to three backs by August. The good news is that all of the likely candidates have been practicing with the team all spring, as the new guys coming in the summer (Shai, D.J. Reid, Taybus Taylor) will probably all redshirt. The bad news for everyone who doesn't make the 3-man-rotation cut is that Frank wants to move the others to different positions (insert obligatory tight end joke). Let's break down the competitors:
Trey Edmunds
Although he missed the entire spring and could miss summer practice as well, it would be a shock if he is supplanted as the starter. Assuming he returns to full health, he deserves 15+ carries per game. His role in the offense is unquestioned, and therefore he takes the first of the three RB spots.
JC Coleman
This is the fun one that nobody knows what to do with. After personally watching the spring game, I didn't see JC do anything to separate himself, and as I discussed with Brian, he simply hasn't shown much improvement since his freshman year. He isn't effective between the tackles, doesn't have breakaway speed, and has difficulty breaking arm tackles. All three of these lacking aspects were apparent on a run from the 3 in the spring game, and JC had to bounce outside for the corner of the goal line but couldn't outrun the DE, and was ultimately brought down at the line of scrimmage. Because of his experience and junior status, it seems to me that the coaches prefer him more than the fans do, but it will be interesting to see what happens with JC. For now, we'll put JC on hold for one of the remaining two RB spots.
Joel Caleb
With Trey out for the spring game, the starters for Maroon and White became JC and (gasp) Joel Caleb. I personally had thought the coaches didn't have much confidence in him, but when I saw him trot out with the White first-team offense, I was surprised and happy, because I have been waiting to see more of him ever since the Western Carolina game. Not only did he score on the 27-yard run right up the middle, but he showed what JC did not: toughness between the tackles and a burst of speed at the line of scrimmage. Caleb didn't hesitate even when the gap wasn't there, he hit it anyway and took what he could get. Although he's not a massive back (6-2, 205), he ran a bit like one on Saturday. Was his performance enough to solidify his spot in the rotation? Maybe, but it certainly should put him ahead of JC.
Marshawn Williams
Juice came into the spring game with a bunch of hype, similar to that before RMFW's first spring game, but it wasn't quite the same result on the field. Marshawn didn't have a bad game, but there were no breakaway runs or truck-stick hits like we all wanted. Despite the so-so spring game, it doesn't necessarily reflect the rest of his spring (he did throw Kendall Fuller on the ground in the first scrimmage), and there is no question Juice will remain a running back. The question that comes up is that if Frank wants only a three-back rotation, would he redshirt Marshawn? Especially considering 2-3 other RBs will be redshirting? Regardless, I don't think Marshawn fully secured playing time for this year, but he most certainly warrants consideration.
Chris Mangus
Another fun one. To me, it seems that Mangus makes something happen every time he touches the ball. To the coaches, he must look more like a wide receiver based on his touches and playing time. On Saturday, Mangus made very nice cuts on multiple plays, juking out linebackers and safeties alike. The sample size yet again wasn't too large, but I thought he looked like a guy who should be in our top three. What I think, however, means just about as much as Mike London's timeouts, so the coaches may very well move him to receiver where he will again have to work to get playing time. His lack of playing time simply makes me think he will be moved.
Jerome Wright
Think we have enough running backs, guys? Jerome Wright got a decent amount of plays in Saturday's game, but I mostly saw him in on passing plays. His runs were about what you would expect, nothing flashy, but strong between the tackles. He did look more decisive than he did in the Sun Bowl, which is saying something considering he played pretty well in that game. My guess is that Wright will be moved back to fullback behind Rogers, but will still be utilized in the run game. He is a good blocker but doesn't have the size of Sam Rogers, and doesn't bring anything exceptional to the RB competition. I still like him as a runner, but situationally.
Who I want to see come out of this group and who the coaches will choose are probably very different. Trey is the obvious #1, and for me, Marshawn is the wild card. What I would want looks like:
1. Trey Edmunds
2. Joel Caleb
3. Chris Mangus
What I'm predicting to actually happen looks like:
1. Trey Edmunds
2. JC Coleman
3. Joel Caleb
If Marshawn isn't projected to crack the top 3, it would be hard not to redshirt him, but I really do want to see him on the field. I predict Mangus will move to WR, Wright will go to FB, and Marshawn will redshirt.
This is all of course based on my own reactions and perceptions post-spring game. Correct me if there are wrongdoings in the post anywhere, and feel free to fire away at my projections, because your guesses are probably better than mine.
Comments
As someone who attended the second scrimmage and spring game I felt Marshawn didn't get the touches in the spring game to show what his full abilities. I feel like they know what he brings to the table, and wanted to get a better look at Caleb before the summer. I'll be pretty upset if marshawn redshirts.
In regards to Mangus, he could go the distance every time he touches the ball, so he needs to find a way onto the field in some role.
I think you're right on the Caleb/Juice assessment for the past two scrimmages. I just don't know if I would go with Williams over both Caleb and Mangus unless they move Mangus.
Agreed. I dont think MMFW redshirts. If he is the legit player that we believe him to be, there is no way in hell he stays in bburg for 5 years and redshirting is pointless.
I don't think Mangus has a place in our backfield at 183 pounds.
To me, Marshawn Williams should get several touches per game this year.
This past winter we were told that Marshawn was unquestionably the best RB we would have. Why has public opinion changed that drastically? Because of a 27 yd run in a scrimmage? That seems rash. If Williams is most of what he was advertised to be, then he will be the featured back. Edmunds recovery will take the bulk of the season. Not to run, but to run uninhibited. There is a huge difference. I don't see Coleman as anything more than a situational player, wherever he is lined up. Caleb & Mangus have the talent to be reserves. We certainly have been lacking for a premiere RB for the last two seasons, and this situation isn't shaping up to be nearly so rosy as was forecast a few months back. Lots to address...
Public opinion has changed only slightly not because of Caleb but because what we heard last winter is different than what you see in the spring. I like Marshawn a lot but there's not way he's "unquestionably" our best RB
If that is true, it is troubling for the season. I've not seen practices,etc. so I'll rely on your & others' opinions for that. If Williams doesn't appear to be a big improvement over what we saw the bulk of last season, then our results might be similar.
I seem to remember being told he was the most talented runner we have, but that he still needs work and experience in pass pro, coming out of the backfield, etc. I also believe that most people thought from the start that Trey, not Juice, would be the starter for the season. In that manner I don't think anything has changed. I still believe Juice is a better natural runner than even Trey, but you can't just ignore the fact that Trey has much more experience in the system, which makes him the obvious starter.
I don't see how he is starting in the first few games.
Why do you say that? Doctors said 4-6 months for a full recovery. Everything I've heard since then is Trey's on or possibly ahead of schedule. He should be close to 100% now, with four months before the first game.
That's what I heard as well. Not sure where this other information is coming from...
Because those are just Doctors.
If they really believed what they were saying, they'd post it on the intertubes!
Based on all the athletes I've seen over the years recovering from similar injuries. As I said, there is a difference in being able to run, and to run uninhibited. What inevitably occurs, is that a year later, the athlete admits that they didn't feel 100%, but that they wanted to be playing. My bet is that Edmunds will be no different. I wish him all the best, but I'll reserve judgement until the season is over. I don't see him progressing any over this past season. Just my two cents.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on JC. For starters, the guy that tracked him down near the goalline was Bonner, a pretty athletic safety playing right in his comfort zone - shoulders square to the line, coming forward. I thought he did a pretty darn good job getting what he could out of each run, running behind a hodgepodge line and against very good DTs. Apart from that goal line stand (which included some excellent DL play and some not-so-excellent TE/FB play), he did very well converting short yardage situations and keeping the chains moving - I think he had 2 or 3 4th down conversions all by himself. I've watched him all spring and he definitely looks very assertive hitting the hole, and, probably most importantly for the coaches, he knows what the heck he's doing. He's one of very few players I never saw a coach yell at to get lined up properly.
I also disagree with you on Williams not showing quite enough to avoid a redshirt (which is how I read that bit, apologies if that's incorrect). I thought he put on enough of a show all spring to make it extremely difficult for the coaches to keep him off the field. But hey, we don't get paid 2.5 mil a year to know diddly about football, so we'll have to be content to watch from the sidelines while knowing diddly about who will actually play.
I think you're spot on with Mangus and Caleb. Both are dynamic athletes and need to be on the field impacting the game. It'll be interesting for sure to see who gets touches and where guys go. I definitely don't envy the coaches making those decisions, but again, I'm also not taking home their paychecks.
I find people's criticism of JC's pass blocking to be more confounding considering he has done a decent job. But yet, the expectation is that he needs to be like Ryan Williams or David Wilson. Can't just be JC who had to deal with poor run blocking his first season and had to hit holes that closed on him as he was going through them and who had a nagging injury all last year. I'm not sure we've seen what he is actually capable of all considering. We grew used to miracle-backs that could make something positive when everythign went against them and not traditional running backs that take what they are given. Not everybody can do that and you're not always going to have one of them.
I thought it was Dadi who tracked him down. Anyway regardless, my point is that we have guys who are better at short-yardage situations, and guys who are better at bouncing outside than JC. His 2- and 3-yard runs don't cut it for me. Heck of a guy, hard as hell worker, but doesn't show enough on the field. Caleb, Mangus, and Juice are all better.
I believe you're recalling Dadi chasing down Carlis Parker on that jet sweep which was equally if not more impressive.
I have to imagine opposing teams will be horrified to see a defensive end chasing down wide receivers 30 yards downfield... and I like it.
I really agree. Of all the backs, JC seems to be 2nd/3rd in every ball handling skill (running between tackles, bouncing outside, moving the pile, catching bubble screens, etc). I do recall JC doing well in Pass Pro.
I'm not sold on J.C. at all. Which is unfortunate, because he's worked very hard and he's learned all the things that you can teach a running back. Unfortunately, what makes a good running back a great one are the things that you can't learn, you either have it or you don't. Coleman, in my opinion, doesn't have "it". Be it great football speed, shiftiness, that will and desire to get those extra tough yards, or whatever, Coleman has shown that he is a hard worker and has learned the system, but just doesn't have the same natural talent. I hate to say it, but I think he should be the odd man out. I'd rather see:
1) Trey (Talent + experience = starter)
2) Juice (Tons of talent, but none of the experience)
3) Joel Caleb (Got plenty of speed, and can probably run the jet sweeps / patterns on passing plays to give an option out of the backfield)
Then I'd say it's:
4) J.C. Coleman (yeah, he knows the system but so does Trey)
5) Mangus (speed is great, but you need something to go with it)
6) Wright (probably winds up at FB behind Rogers)
I would switch Mangus/JC. Mangus can be great situationally, I can't think of a ballhandling situation/playcall where JC is the best back for that scenario. Can you?
I think he's better in pass protection and blitz pickup than Mangus, for sure.
Agreed, and I will update my last comment to reflect this.
The only thing I may consider is simply identifying where holes may develop in the line faster because of his experience. Otherwise I think Mangus has superior natural talents.
I would have liked to have seen Juice on that series the Maroon team inside the 5. Marshawn is someone who is going to move the pile. JC isn't. That's just who he. From everything I've heard this spring about Marshawn I don't see how he doesn't see the field this year. What I would like to see is Trey and Marshawn as the 1-2 backs who get the bulk of the carries. JC and Caleb can be situational backs. Mangus does seem to do well when thrown to on screens and such so moving him to a wideout or something seems like a good fit. But again this is just my opinion. I just don't see a way Marshawn doesn't play this year. Coaches love Caleb but I have yet to hear of him having a breakout spring and coming into the player that everyone thought he would be.
We may be the only offense in the country that can run a 5 TE set (Possibly even 6 depending on what you want to call Durkin), 5 WR set and a 5 RB set in consecutive plays.
Can you imagine the defensive guys seeing 5 TEs running onto the field.
We used to do that all the time and call it an Offensive Line.
Leg for the jinx.
For several years that's pretty much what defenses did see. And they loved it. Because Newsome called them "OL" instead of "TE".
JC Coleman reminds me of Jake Johnson in that he was a beast in the gym room. It just never seems to translate to the field. I feel for the kid, but watching film it always seems like he misses the hole, or can't break that first tackle, etc.
MMFW made some nice cut backs into the holes on the inside zone plays in the spring game that I was excited to see vs last year when our guys tended to just run into the back of the OL
I vote we retire the "MF" nick. It's the sort of thing that only really works once.
Especially if we don't even know if he can start...
You get the "MF" distinction when you score 20 TDs in a season. It's the sports equivalent of defending your thesis or passing the bar.
That is why I would keep Trey, Marshawn, and Joel if I had to keep just three backs. But Trey might be replaced by Chris for the first couple of games.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but unless Edmunds gets some meaningful live-action, tackle-to-the-ground reps in the Fall, he's not going to be our starting RB. Personally speaking, I'm not a big fan of getting your old job back when you come back from an injury - I believe you have to earn it. If Edmunds picks up in the Fall where he was last year prior to his injury, then we're talking.
As it stands right now, my pecking order is -
T1. Caleb, Williams
3. Mangus
4. Coleman
5. Wright (moves to back-up FB)
6. Edmunds (the recovery jury is still out)
On Edit - meant Coleman at #4.
Interesting opinion, but I think it needs #moarCaleb
T1. Caleb, Williams
3. J "Truth" Caleb
4. Joel Caleb
5. Ralphie Caleb the Wonder Llama
6. The RB formally known as Caleb.
At least he's not formerly known as Caleb #justlondonthings
The fingers just type what they want sometimes.
Your hashtag is confusing me though. These guys didn't have a Caleb. But they did have a Fuller.
I get the feeling someone with good photoshop-fu is going to have a field day with this pic.
3 and 4 are switched for sure. Mangus didn't seem to get much action this past weekend from what I have heard
I think the coaches were trying to find out what Coleman has this year after another off-season in the weight room. I think they already know what Mangus is capable of doing and needed less evaluation.
I could see that but Coleman has been the #2 back for 2 years now and even though he was injured for 1 of them wouldn't you want to get that #3 guy reps to maybe push the #2 guy a little bit more.
Our RB position should be Edmunds (if healthy) Caleb/Williams as a 1-2 punch then JC or Mangus as scat backs.
Imagine the redzone potential with a bruiser in Williams and Caleb, we could go fast for 2 fast for 2 reps then bring in williams to run em over.
I am in full agreement with this list.
1-2-3 of Williams, Mangus, and Caleb
4-5 of Coleman and Wright
6 of injured players, true freshman, former quaterbacks, future tight ends, etc
A logjam, no doubt.
Still, if Marshawn were to redshirt, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Reference: 1998. We redshirted another dynamic 4-star guy from the Peninsula District that year, and I remember a bit of an uproar.
If Marshawn were to redshirt and JC gets carries over him I have no idea what I would do. JC is a good player but nowhere near the skill/talent level that Juice has.
It's been done. We redshirted Ryan Williams and gave Kenny Lewis carries in 2008.
Like someone (probably multiple) people said above, it's not always about rushing the ball. If Marshawn doesn't play, it's because he didn't do everything else well enough to warrant him a spot above the incumbents.
And given our recent history of stellar offensive line play, that sixth blocker for {insert QB here} becomes all-important.
Pretending Marshawn Williams bears any resemblance to Michael Vick in terms of value is an extremely pointless analogy. Seriously, that is ridiculous.
Redshirting running backs is a bad idea. They have a shelf life. Get them in the game, let them play, and get them to the NFL as soon as possible before they injure themselves. The idea of an elite prospect sticking around for 4 (or 5) years ain't happening - get them into the league and use them as a positive recruiting example.
Their shelf life is a result of the punishment they take while playing... redshirting means significantly less punishment, or in essence a longer shelf life.
Well yeah, but they're only going to hang around two years or so once they start playing in games. Look at RMFW, he left with 2 years left. Wilson left with 1 (but happily, we got 3 years of decent-to-outstanding production out of him cause we didn't redshirt him). The point is that chances are, if they're good enough to play in the NFL, they're gonna go sooner rather than later, so get 'em on the field while they're around.
^^^^^THIS^^^^
I couldn't agree more, I get the whole needs to learn pass protection but lets be honest JC lacks in that category big time, can't begin to think Williams is that far behind. I think David Wilson said in an interview that Vt had 3-4 main rb blocking routes/plans. That's not a lot to deal with especially since Williams has come in early and been a full go all spring.
And what do we do when we have redshirted Williams and Shai and then Edmunds leaves after this year. Awesome we have 0 depth in the backfield in regards to legit gametime speed.
Unfortunately, David Wilson also played for an offense that at the time had 3-4 passing plays. I highly doubt our offensive protection schemes are as simplistic as they were before the coaching changes.
Also, I think J.C. has done very well in pass protection. I think he lags behind in natural talent.
As for 0 depth in the backfield next year with regard to "legit gametime speed," I think RB is the one position where experience isn't needed to "get up to college speed" but instead needed for the mental aspect (pass protection, route running, etc.). Redshirting still gives these guys a chance to learn the blocking schemes, etc.
Not saying I want Juice to redshirt, but I'm not going to worry about him "not having experience at game speed" if he does.
Point taken.. there are two interesting takes on this point. However based on Searels and Shane's conversation (Searels wanted Juice to get more work) a week ago I would be surprised if he gets red-shirted.
Oh I agree, and honestly I want Juice to be the #2 back. I think he has that sort of talent. Trey is more than good enough in pass protection, I believe, and Juice has the makings of a special back. Both of them would be fun to watch this year, I think.
Can August come already
David Wilson never played in Loeffler's offense. It's possible that protection schemes are more complex now.
I would guess we let Williams, Shai, et. al compete for the starting job... (like what Trey did, after his redshirt year)
I'm not necessarily saying Williams should redshirt (and I don't think he will), but if he did, it wouldn't be the end of the world. The coaches know what they're doing.
Eggggggggg-zactly.
If you're saying that Vick was much more valuable than Williams can hope to be, then you may have inadvertently made my point.
I'm saying it is ridiculous to toss out your veiled reference to Michael Vick as if there is even a microscopic bit of comparison to be made between the two, for multiple reasons. You could make a foundation for your point without resorting to the straw man of Michael Vick. It just has zero relevance.
I think you may have taken this too seriously, sir. Step back for a moment and reassess.
No, I offered it as a mild criticism because of the silliness of your making the comparison in your argument. If you want to stick with it while painting me as being overly serious, feel free. Williams won't redshirt because of numerous reasons. He shouldn't redshirt, for several other reasons that hold merit. But I digress. After all, Corey Moore was a juco transfer, and look how he did.
Yeah, I can't wait for those JUCO transfers currently on our roster to start contributing.
My 2 cents:
1. Everyone is so high on Edmunds. I love the guys character, but I think he is a "serviceable" back. Playing against Bama last year, it looked like he was wearing a d-lineman shoulder pads, and on that 70-yard gallop, it looked like he was running for his life (which he was). He runs with his pads too high and to me, doesn't have the look or skill set to make him worth all the notoriety. Honestly, I am greatly unimpressed. I think he was a best case scenario for us. If he is healthy, I do understand however that he is the defacto starter.
2. Mangus is too small. You cannot convince me he is good enough to be in the top 3. 186 lbs, not even 6'? C'mon man. No. Way.
3. Wright gets moved. He's the first one out.
4. MW is the real deal. He's all man, at 18! Give him the top spot.
5. Caleb deserves #2. He's a big back, experienced, hungry, becoming a student of the game, he needs his touches. I almost want to put him as my #1.
6. JC is better than most give him credit for. He has said himself that he tries to emulate Ray Rice (on the field, not off). He has a ton of power per square inch and runs smart. A lot of fight in that little dog, I say throw him a bone. He's my situational back.
There you go.
You make good points, except I don't see how you can say Mangus is too small but JC deserves to be a situational back. Mangus is right at 6', JC is a half foot shorter and is slower.
But JC has broken himself a few tackles this spring, including converting some clutch short-yardage plays in the spring game where he didn't have much room to work.
I've missed those broken tackles then.
Guess so. They've definitely been there.
Easy. JC has more fighter's punch, Mangus is just...fast. Did you watch him against UCLA? He looked like a pinball, he had snot bubbles after every carry. The guy just isnt an ACC caliber back. Sure...he had a 70 yard TD against Western Carolina. But what did he do against the big boys? Nada. Granted, he didnt get many opportunities, but he doesnt have the the girth to off-set his size. JC may be slower on paper, but the kid has quickness, shiftiness (he taught the old ball coach his dance skills for the Harlem Shake for crying out loud!) and good football IQ. Mangus needs to be moved. Maybe he can be utilized as a return man, maybe he can run the jet sweep. But sheesh...how much of his 186 lbs is hair? Really, I love the guy's commitment to Hokie Nation. But he doesnt hold a candle to a healthy JC.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I never saw JC do anything against the big boys either.
I could be wrong, and I hate to think of Duke from 2012 and UVA from 2013 as "big boys", but I thought JC was more than serviceable against both of those teams. He came in pushed a few piles against UVA this year after Trey was out. Not that he was stiff arming people to the ground or anything, but he was falling forward and he broke a few tackles.
did anyone else notice how huge williams is. he is a big back. i just cant see him not getting on the field this year, his talent is just too high to not be out there. i cannot wait to see the kid for the next few years. he is going to destroy defenders.
JC hasn't been a big threat to get the edge, he hasn't been able to run through arm tackles or shake free from a defender. He misses holes often and isn't great at pass blocking. Great kid and I think we should try and get him and Mangus the ball in space if they are going to see game time but I don't like the idea of them taking many hand offs. Caleb and MW and Edmunds are the ones who should be getting those.
No way in the world Williams redshirts. What it should be...
1. Edmunds
2. Williams
3. Caleb
What it will be...
1. Edmunds
2. Williams
3. Coleman
I think the coaches give JC the benefit of the doubt due to seniority and I also think silently they don't want to annoy any high school coaches, possible recruits, etc. in the Chesapeake area by taking touches away from him. Not to mention JC is a huge advocate for VT in recruiting. I don't think the coaches want to ruin that. Not saying I agree with that, but if that is a reasoning of the coaching staff, I get it.
The starting lineup for the first game will be different, but by mid-season Williams will be the feature back, Edmunds the first backup, and Coleman a situational back used in passing more than rushing. Mangus & Caleb will be buried on the depth chart. Edmunds doesn't have as much upside...
When it comes to 'annoying high school coaches' vs winning football games, the coaches have an easy decision. If the coaches go with JC for carries, it won't be because of his impact on recruits or any 757 coaches.