ESPN.com's Tom VanHaaren published an interesting study ($) about which college programs prospects believe are the best at developing players at each position over the last 10 years.
All of us are comfortable calling Virginia Tech "DBU", and Torrian Gray's unit's play on the field and NFL pedigree has earned Tech as good of a claim to the title as any other school. So naturally the results of ESPN.com's survey piqued my curiosity. Do prospects feel like we do? Ultimately their opinion probably matters the most as they're the next generation of talent Beamer Co. is trying to sell Virginia Tech to.
Recruit perception: LSU gets the nod as DBU with recruits across the country. Alabama was the second most mentioned program, followed by Virginia Tech and Ohio State, but LSU was consistently talked about among the recruits surveyed. Tyrann Mathieu and Patrick Peterson were singled out as examples of why prospects were naming LSU as the best place for defensive backs. It's tough to blame them, as the Tigers have had a lot of success developing this position group.
Recruit's take: "My top three would be LSU, Alabama and Virginia Tech."
While the Hokies aren't the consensus top program, Virginia Tech's success isn't going unnoticed. That's a good thing.
I found it interesting the time range ESPN.com asked recruits to consider was 10 years. Coaches develop players, and few, position or otherwise, have been at the same school over the last 10 years. Additionally, I'm sure the kids surveyed had something better to pay attention to when they were 6, 7, 8, ... years old.
To educate myself, I took a look at the defensive backs each of the three schools have had drafted from 2010-2014. I think the last 5 years provides a good sampling of data, and more recently drafted players resonate more with today's high schoolers. I used Rivals.com ratings because the 247Composite isn't available for all the players drafted.
| Drafted | College | Name | Rivals.com Stars | Signed | Selection | Position | College Years |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2014 | Virginia Tech | Kyle Fuller | 3 | 2010 | 14 | CB | 4 |
| 2014 | Alabama | Ha Ha Clinton-Dix | 5 | 2011 | 21 | FS | 3 |
| 2014 | Alabama | Vinnie Sunseri | 3 | 2011 | 167 | DB | 3 |
| 2014 | Virginia Tech | Antone Exum | 3 | 2009 | 182 | CB | 5 |
| 2013 | Alabama | Dee Milliner | 5 | 2010 | 9 | CB | 3 |
| 2013 | LSU | Eric Reid | 4 | 2010 | 18 | FS | 3 |
| 2013 | LSU | Tyrann Mathieu | 4 | 2010 | 69 | FS | 3 |
| 2013 | LSU | Tharold Simon | 4 | 2010 | 138 | CB | 3 |
| 2012 | LSU | Morris Claiborne | 3 | 2009 | 6 | CB | 3 |
| 2012 | Alabama | Mark Barron | 4 | 2008 | 7 | DB | 4 |
| 2012 | Alabama | Dre Kirkpatrick | 5 | 2009 | 17 | CB | 3 |
| 2012 | LSU | Brandon Taylor | 4 | 2009 | 73 | SS | 3 |
| 2012 | Virginia Tech | Jayron Hosley | 4 | 2009 | 94 | CB | 3 |
| 2012 | LSU | Ron Brooks | 4 | 2007 | 124 | CB | 5 |
| 2012 | Alabama | DeQuan Menzie | 4 | 2010 | 146 | CB | 2 |
| 2011 | LSU | Patrick Peterson | 5 | 2008 | 5 | DB | 3 |
| 2011 | Virginia Tech | Rashad Carmichael | 2 | 2006 | 127 | DB | 5 |
| 2010 | Alabama | Kareem Jackson | 4 | 2007 | 20 | CB | 3 |
| 2010 | Alabama | Javier Arenas | 3 | 2006 | 50 | DB | 4 |
| 2010 | Virginia Tech | Kam Chancellor | 3 | 2006 | 133 | DB | 4 |
| 2010 | Virginia Tech | Cody Grimm | 0 | 2005 | 210 | FS | 5 |
| 2010 | Alabama | Marquis Johnson | 4 | 2006 | 211 | DB | 4 |
Alabama has developed 9 prospects into NFL draft picks, LSU 7, and Virginia Tech 6. However, this data doesn't consider the busts, just the total. Knowing the ratio of defensive backs signed to those drafted would be a more compelling statistic. The Hokies have had one first round pick, while the Crimson Tide and Tigers have had 5 and 3, respectively. Although, the average Rivals.com stars for Tech is 3 (I considered Grimm an outlier and he wasn't included, 2.5 otherwise), 4 for LSU, and 4.11 for Alabama. It could be argued Tech is developing its players best because they weren't as highly regarding coming out of high school, yet they're getting drafted. Alabama's drafted DBs spent an average of 3.22 years in college while, LSU 3.28, and Tech 4.2 (again sans Grimm). This stat lends itself to the notion that the players Alabama and LSU sign are more NFL ready coming out of high school, and require less college development. Or Saban's and Miles' staffs are so good at what they do, they only need 3-4 years of coaching.
In my experience talking with prospects, the end results like draft success, and post-season accolades are more important than the circumstances of the journey.
Researching this data has enlightened some. I've learned in addition to Tech, other schools have had great success developing defensive backs into draft picks. But at the end of the day, I'm going to continue calling Virginia Tech "DBU" without hesitation.
Comments
I'm sure we were mentioned as top for TE development too.
I love this kind of analysis. Can't really argue with it. The fact that Tech is mentioned alongside LSU and Bama is about all you could ask for.
Torrian Gray has been indispensable in the success of the Lunchpail Defense.
Virginia Tech: The Once and Future DBU
Yeah one of my former coworkers who happens to be a fan of Tech, UVA & Lsu (he's weird) claims LSU is DBU then Tech.
...a fan of tech, uva?! & LSU????
whaaaa
In football, Zima-pong and wrestling, respectively.
Like I said, he's weird. I think my enthusiasm sways him a little more Tech & LSU than UVA.
On a side note we're both friends with a coworker that's a huge 'Eers fan. We always crack on him.
wvu=VATECH's lil brother.
FYI, LSU doesn't have a wrestling team, maybe gator wrestling. Actually, no SEC school has a wrestling team, except newcomer Missouri. They had to join the MAC when the school left the Big 12. I'd imagine you're spot-on with the Zima-Pong at UVA though.
Seems like the SEC should have catfish noodling teams. It just fits too well.
UVA fan because my cousin played for them in the late 80's early 90's. VaTech because they are the dominate team in my state of birth. LSU because while stationed in the deep south USMC, before you could watch any game anywhere in the heart of SEC, LSU Football reminded me of VaTech Football. And LSU is DBU 1a, VaTech DBU 1b. Oh my cousin a DB in the upcoming class is being recruited and might Geaux to VaTech.
We're DBU.
Having said that, someone on scout.com wrote an article a few years ago arguing USCe, and the numbers didn't lie, they put a bunch of players into the league at the DB positions. Not as long a history as ours, but a good list of people.
Who does a better job developing talent versus just processing through already talented individuals?
Just goes to show that publicity is more important to future recruits. Today's 17 year olds were influenced by TV broadcasts from 10 years ago.
Prospects all think they're the most talented anyway, so the development vs. processing argument doesn't work. Our being in the mix with Alabammer & LSU is about as good as we can hope for, though. Gray is vastly underrated as a component in both Bud's & Beamer's larger picture success.
I was just thinking about this the other day. If you extend the time period considered back a few years so DeAngello Hall, Brandon Flowers, and Aaron Rouse are considered, and couple that with the fact that we probably have one of, if not the, best secondaries in the nation currently, I think Tech has the best case for DBU.
I'll concede LSU and Bama could each make pretty convincing arguments, but what really grinds my gears is when Texas calls themselves DBU. Their recent resume of successful NFL DB's consists of Earl Thomas and.....? Nathan Vasher?
As much as I hate to admit it, another school that could potentially make a claim is Miami. Haven't done much recently, but if you look at the last 10 years or so, you're talking Ed Reed, Phillup Buchanan, Mike Rumph, Sean Taylor, Antrel Rolle, and Brandon Merriweather. That's a bunch of first round picks.
Yup, if we are taking samples from the early 2000s, then Miami def has a case for DBU, as well as
RBU - Clinton Portis, Willis McGahee, Frank Gore, Najeh Davenport
TEU - Jeremy Shockey, Kellen Winslow, Greg Olson
WRU - Santana Moss, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Devin Hester
They were so loaded at the skill positions for about 5 years.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Devin Hester came into the league as a cornerback, and was then moved to receiver so he could make explosive plays on offense. FWIW
Yes you are correct, he was more D and special teams focused at the U. He was listed as Defensive Back/Wide Receiver on his profile on Miami's website.
He had 5 career INTs and 6 Punt/KO returns for TDs.
I guess that's more evidence that Miami got severely overlooked as DBU on ESPNs survey.
I would have Miami, LSU, VT in that order since 2000. jmho.
Bitter just posted on this subject citing an "objective rating" of DBUs and RBUs not based on recruits perceptions. VT at #10 in each.
There's definitely a reason you put quotation marks around objective ranking. They assign point values for awards, consensus All-Americans and all-conference awards as well as draft picks. I bet the weighting of the points really swings who is ranked where. And as Joe mentioned in his post, should we care about how much they grew at the school, the end result, or what they did along the way?
Just an example for how the point rankings skew results, take UVA's placing in the "Tight End U" category. Heath Miller earned them 46 of their 54 points. 1 guy. They had 5 TEs drafted in the 2000s which is a fair number, but seeing as how 3 were in rounds 5-7, I don't think that they are churning out TEs left and right.
So... if you're already a 5-star guy and pro bound regardless of where you go, LSU or Bama are fine, but we aren't really comparing apples-to-apples here. Those schools produce more because they get more 5-stars. They put more pros in at every postition, and some happen to be d-backs. I bet if you normalize the talent pools, VT dramatically outproduces everyone.
I get what you're saying, but without looking at the numbers I'd say some of VT's more highly-touted recruits have come at the DB position (or were recruited as athletes, but were always likely to end up at a DB position).
The Fullers, Hosley, Exum, Chancellor, Harris, Morgan, etc. were all considered to be great prospects before ever playing a down at VT. So yeah, more 5-star guys probably get drafted from Bama & LSU, but it's not like the guys coming to play DB for Tech were considered slouches either. They were all highly regarded recruits (4-star range on most of them at least), just not on the elite 5-star level.
Actually, according to Rivals, most of these guys were 3 star guys. Harris and Ke. Fuller were both 5 and Hosley a 4. The rest were 3 (although I swear at the time Chancellor was a 2, I think Rivals bumped him up to not look stupid).
Sadly our "highly touted" recruits are rarely 5 stars vs. the likes of LSU and Alabama who rarely don't get 5 stars. Also I believe the difference between a 5 star and 4 star is ability to play at the next level (5 stars are ready to go, 4 stars may need some weight/coaching/training est) so that difference would not be insignificant.
Chancellor was DEFINITELY a 2* coming out of HS, 20/20 hindsight from Rivals there.
Under their current grading regime, he would've gotten a third star just in virtue of signing with VT. So, charitably, maybe that's the retroactive fix.
Kam also listed as a QB prospect, not a DB. This further reinforces the point that VT develops talent at a remarkable rate compared to what Bama and LSU are provided with their recruits coming out of high school.
Rivals rated him as a QB and appear to be right in that regard. It's a bit much to ask Rivals or anyone else to assess a prospect's potential at multiple positions.
Its from ESPN. Their ranking is always doubtful. You should take the ranking with HUGE BUCKET OF SALT.
The best thing to do with ESPN rankings is to determine which group of followers they think will be larger - those they complement by including their team in the poll, or those they insult by excluding their team from the poll. That's always the end game - what gets them the most clicks. That's why Heather Dinich will always cover Hokie football for them, because so many Hokies whine about her saying too much mean stuff about us or not saying enough nice stuff about us. Same goes for many other examples.
This is not a ranking, it's a result of survey to prospects.
That's the key - what this measures is our brand identity amongst prospects, not any analytical data.
i was hanging out with roc carmicheal and davon morgan in philly this past weekend and they both said one of the main reasons they chose VT was jimmy williams and they way he played and watching him. I dont see any drop off in our DBs happening anytime soon in the last decade i would def say we have #1 DBU consistantly, actually in the last 20 years with kieon carpenter, cory bird, coach grey, willie pile, the list goes on and on and i want to say all those guys were either drafted or at some point on an NFL roster i dont think bama or lsu would compare in those #s i may be wrong but i dont think so.
I have to think this is also due to media coverage. We aren't in the SEC, so we don't get as much screen time. Our defensive backs might make great plays, but they aren't in the top 10 plays once an hour. Kids like Tyrann Mathieu or Jadaveon Clowney make one fantastic play, their faces are everywhere.
Good point. How much screen time did that insane INT by Facyson against Gah Tech get? After the highlight for the game, not much from what I remember.
Yes, that one should still be in the highlight reels as well as Fuller getting through the line for the fumble.
Although I do remember Hosely on the ESPN Science of the game segment talking about his ability to reverse on the ball. I think it was just after his Freshman year.
Oh yea! That was after the season he led the league in picks I think.
And it so obvious his elite athletic ability that at his first interception I declared to my fiends (sic) that I was a Jayron fan and declared that absent injury he'd break records.
I won the bet.
It's not so much about not being SEC as it is not being ranked highly. We still don't have the cache that LSU or Alabammer or OhState or SoCal have. Being on the fringes is not the same as being inside.
From ESPN's Position U series:
10th in DBs: http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/tag/_/name/2014-position-u
That series is a joke. Ohio State #1, really? I would think LSU, Alabama, Miami or us since 2000. easily.
Yep. The points are assigned arbitrarily, so consequently the results are arbitrary. You can design a points system that will give you virtually any result you want...
Slightly off topic, but can we get an honorable mention as QBU? We've now got three quarterbacks on rosters in the NFL as well as a head coach (Arians at Arizona).
This list will add another Fuller and Facyson in a few years. The Legend of DBU continues
I would say VT and LSU are the top contenders just on fame. But does anyone else remember when the players were calling our secondary "D-Block"? It was because LSU was already recognized as DBU and we wanted to be different. Ironically it was in the DHall days when our players seemed to attract a lot of off campus attention from police.
I suspect that the average ranking for BAMA and LSU is also higher at the wide receiver, QB, D-line, etc. Better competition all around combined with higher player rankings will accelerate development, so I contend Tech does more with "less." Would be interesting to compare the tenure and impact the drafted players have in the NFL.
Tossup between us and LSU, those are the only two that I have ever heard legitimately called #DBU.
since 2005 we only have 7 players that were starters for VT in the secondary that are not currently in the NFL (if you excluded micheal cole from this its only 6) also excluded people still on the roster but we all know atleast 3 of 4 will be playing on sundays in the future. no slight to bonner i just dont see it.
1. james hopper
2. chris hill
3. dorian porch
4. dj parker
5. stephen virgil
6 roland minor
i dont think that LSU would be able to say the same. and during the time that porch, parker, and minor were on the team we had the best Defense in the country for 2 years straight as well as best scoring and passing D.
i think there is only 1 DBU and thats us! #dblock
Chris Hill wasn't really a full-time starter, he started five games his Senior year, but he was the #3 corner after Fuller and Hosley. He mostly played in Nickel Packages when Fuller moved over to play in the Nickel.
That said, he was still good enough to make it onto the Bill's preseason roster and play in two preseason games. I would guess that several of the other players on the list of starters not playing in the NFL could receive a similar asterisk next to their name.
Sam (THERE'S NO D IN) Rogers wanted to let yall know
So you don't agree with the data in the original post?
Sorry...You are ALL wrong.
Here is the REAL DBU.
http://www.dbu.edu/