Great write up Andy! I think (and 100% agree) that it echoes the sentiment throughout Hokie Nation. Another thing is I'm a little mixed about using the top athletes for special teams. Won't that risk injury to their future professional careers? Hopefully Santamaria will work out.
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Being more concerned with professional careers rather than winning at the college level seems like a total UVA move. Just being on a football field means you can get injured at any time. Larger point:
Beamer's trademark was using starters on ST; no one else was doing that back in the mid-90's. I think he still believes in putting the best athletes into the position to make plays. If we've got the depth to do it, put the second stringers out there. If they can't hack it, put in the best. Heck, our hero Kyle Fuller volunteered (along with several other starters) to play ST after the Bama debacle.
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This is probably the most freak injury I've ever seen in a football game and it happened on a normal play:
I believe the risk of injury on special teams comes from the greater chance of being hit without seeing it coming. The hardest I remember getting hit in a football game was when I didn't see a guy coming at me on kickoff coverage because my focus was ahead and on staying in my lane and a blocker came from the side.
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Heh, I was organizing videos on my camera while watching this game. I saw the injury, thought what the hell, re-round the DVR and posted a video to YouTube. The next morning it was picked up by AOL Sports and it had over 400k views:
dyrell hurt himself on ST but he was just as much of a playmaker there as he was at WR. he changed games with his KRs. i dont remember him really changing any games as a WR. he made a great catch to win the nebraska game but that was more tyrod working the field for 2 min scambling and other than that his most memorable moment as WR was catch over an app st player in a blow out game. ST is part of the game and can win or loose the game just like any D or O why would you not have your own group of "starters" for that as well? the best players on the field at all times.
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The other thing to remember about Roberts' injury was that it wasn't like it was unique to ST play. He took a helmet to the thigh, and it was one of those freak things that just happened to lead to compartment syndrome. It's the kind of hit that can happen when anybody is running down the field. Had it been on a passing play, the safety could have come downfield and laid the same hit. Of course, the real problem is with the defender who dropped his head to torpedo-tackle him...
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Yeah, playing it so conservatively that you don't use what has proven in the past works because you fear what MIGHT happen? That's meekly accepting the probability of defeat because you're afraid of taking a chance for victory. Very reminiscent of the quote by a former coach about the offense playing to stall to help the defense, instead of playing to score and win. Trying to justify that fear of striving for excellence by saying something 'could happen' or someone 'could get hurt' is extremely weak. You'll never be elite by doing that. Our special teams have NOT been special for a long time. Fear of change won't solve that.
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The whole concept of BeamerBall vaporized the moment Beamer took his best offensive and defensive players off the units and started playing it like EVERY other school in football by putting in guys on Special Teams just to get them some game experience.
We need to get back to the point where being on Special Teams at Virginia Tech is a fucking honor. I want to see our starting RBs lining up over center ready to destroy the foe in front of him. I want our kick blocking units foaming at the mouth every 4th down ready to inflict punishment on the kicking team. C'mon, Frank, show us some damn balls and play mean, nasty football again. Enough with the 'trying to keep players healthy' shit. Virginia Tech's reputation was built on nasty defenses and an overwhelming special teams unit. Time to go back to our roots.
You go back and watch some of the highlights when our special teams were rolling, and the guys who were blocking kicks are the PLAYMAKERS in other areas of the game. We created mismatches because we put our best guys against kicking teams who were using the practice of keeping starters healthy by playing young guys to just get them experience. Our playmakers destroyed them game after game. You'd have guys like Lee Suggs blocking punts and it was awesome, because these guys played their asses off to get on the VT Special Teams units. There's a reason we STILL call it the Pride and Joy unit... But we don't treat it so, and its a damn shame.
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As soon as I started reading your post, I said to myself, "I remember Lee Suggs blocking a punt..." Glad to see you brought that one up as an example. Classic.
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It seems very much as if we are content to live on past special teams glories because of the fear to change or the inability to evolve. I think the retreat further and further back into a safe zone seems to be a common theme. There just doesn't seem to be a hunger to stretch for success. Unless the hunger returns, or is inserted from new direction, then we'll keep being embarrassed and having to listen to national commentators say things like 'Virginia Tech used to always be known for BeamerBall meaning great special teams play, but lately...'
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I gave you a turkey leg for this. You should be proud. I'm not exactly a Turkey Leg whore. I don't just sling those things around.
The special teams play in the 90's is what endeared the Hokies to so many fans. It totally underscored the theme of those teams back then, which was we might not have the heralded 4 star recruits, but we will pump the shit out the iron in the weight room, and come game time we are going to hit you in the jaw with the best that we have from the opening kick to triple zeros in the fourth.
Every July I'm waiting and hoping that the Hokies will find that groove again.
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We put Kyle and Kendall Fuller (among others) out there with a very thin CB group, resulting in improvement of the STs unit. I agree with some of the others here, Beamerball was made by putting impact players out there on STs. Okay, maybe you leave the guys who just got off their crutches out. Other than that I think we need the most talent on the field at all times.
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Sure, there might be one-off places where you keep a kid off the Special Teams units (like, for example, if he's coming off a major knee injury) but the overall message stays the same. You open up the chance to play on the VT Special Teams to the entire roster of players, and you make it well known that its an honor to be on the unit, and you give some kind of team recognition or award for playing on it. Remake Special Teams to be the one thing kids come to VT to try and play on. Make being on the VT Special Teams fun again.
As for your other point on keeping guys off because it might impact other areas on the team. Honestly, its a chance worth taking, and a chance we SHOULD be taking, because its what Virginia Tech football was built upon. You block a kick, you turn every aspect of the game in your favor. Its a major swing of momentum that will usually win the game for the team that pulls it off. Guys get hurt all the time, its an unfortunate part of the game, and these injuries can happen at even the most mundane of times. Are we trying to win games, or are we trying to protect our stars to allow them to get more stats?
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Not to mention, several other teams now have adopted our 'good ole days' strategy of putting certain top athletes on ST, even as we shrink from it. They don't seem to be afraid of freak injuries, mostly because they understand that is a faux excuse. As I said elsewhere, when you retreat SO far into a comfort bubble that your conservative play hobbles the team, it becomes an issue. And it has been an issue for us for quite a few years now. Sure, we can beat the directional teams but it's just another reason why we aren't beating the top teams. And the definition of 'top' seems to be broadening. We're trying to ascend to the upper tier of college football while only focusing on playing above average in one of the three components. The best defense in the nation can't overcome a flaccid offense and embarrassing special teams.
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Well... its not only that... The problem now is that our Special Teams play isn't just not winning us games anymore, its actually costing us games. You can go back through the last couple years and its littered with teams that have beaten us based on Special Teams. 2012 FSU, Michigan in the Sugar Bowl, 2013 Alabama, etc. These games all turned on a dime because we screwed up on Special Teams.
At a certain point, you have to sit back and realize what we're doing just isn't working. By playing guys just to get them experience, we're actually putting our own team at a matchup disadvantage, and teams are capitalizing on it. Its probably the single biggest reason we've struggled the last few years with playing .500 ball. We cannot hold field position anymore, and even worse, teams are routinely breaking big runs and getting scores on our special teams. As I said before, are we trying to keep players healthy, or are we in the business of winning games?
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I absolutely agree. I was merely avoiding the inevitable kickback whenever being too critical of Frank. I think the onus is completely on him. He just seems to be afraid or unable to evolve - whether we're discussing offense or special teams. It's really easy to stay on cruise control instead. For those inside the bubble it seems like we're 'almost there', but we are just so far away. We need to stretch, and we aren't stretching, we're relaxing. Every time this is mentioned, there seems to be a whole list of excuses why it might not work. Not reasons it won't work, excuses why it might not - so let's not even try it. It is unbelievably frustrating, and when I hear BeamerBall, I have to think to myself - 'I'ts gone from being a badge of honor to be a label of irony'. As you said, our special teams are a negative. Just as, so many times, in big games against elite teams, we do the most stupid things on special teams. Ever since the MNC against F$U, when ole Bobby owned Frank on ST.
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It's really easy to stay on cruise control instead. For those inside the bubble it seems like we're 'almost there', but we are just so far away. We need to stretch, and we aren't stretching, we're relaxing. Every time this is mentioned, there seems to be a whole list of excuses why it might not work. Not reasons it won't work, excuses why it might not - so let's not even try it.
Ugh... I just had flashbacks to TSL in the pre-Loeffler days when talking about the offense...
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I dunno, I think Stinespring's problem was that he was far TOO willing to try virtually anything. Almost as if he thought a Playstation approach would work. Like the time he had the opening play after a long kick return feature a reverse - slow developing, of course - featuring the same guy who had just run back for about 40-50 yards. I could go on, but it would be picking a scab. Loeffler might not be innovative, but he at least seems consistent with a vision. That is miles ahead of what Frank allowed for over a decade by Stinespring.
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Like the time he had the opening play after a long kick return feature a reverse - slow developing, of course - featuring the same guy who had just run back for about 40-50 yards.
Dyrel v Nebraska? I remember Stiney getting asked about that one. He talked about how they scripted the first however many plays, and that was the first play on the script. I know Bill Walsh did that but he was, you know, a football genius. Iunno, it kind of set the tone for the rest of the game after a solid start.
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Yeah, I remember that being the excuse, as though we're supposed to believe such a ridiculous concept. If he'd made it all the way to the 5-yard line before being tackled, we would still run a reverse? With the same guy? We were supposed to believe that once the play was put on paper Friday that nothing could change the course of history? That nothing could change it? Because... why? It is those kind of statements made by the coaching staff that are insults to us as a fan base.
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our depth has been lacking for the last couple years at skills positions. thats why the special teams has been too. we can barely put starters on the field at RB, WR and as good as our secondary has been the backups have been ehhh not good... see cinnci game in fedex. micheal cole wasnt good enough IMO to be a starter at safety but would have been a great ST player. we really just got depth at DB and Safety last year and now were building on that. i expect our coverage and block teams to get alot better this year and next. kicking thats a wholeeeeee nother story, need to step up the recuiting game we need some shane grahams and brandon paces that can kick long fgs and kickoff into the endzone.
look at the points we left on the board in the article andy wrote. what 7 TDS on ST and 3 pick sixs. clean up those things hokie nation and we are a top 5 football team again. and those are easily fixable things. for all you who think we are really far away from continding for a NCS we are never that far when our D is playing the way we know they can play.
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Our special teams have suffered for more than two season. Also, most of the special teams stars have not been RBs or WRs. Yeah, if you want to pretend that special teams is only about return yardage, then maybe. But Frank showed the world over 15 years ago that special teams is about far more than that. And all the 'far more than that' is where we've deflated for the last several years, way more than just two. The problem is that we've not evolved beyond that mindset from fifteen-plus years ago, we've actually regressed behind it. The game has changed, and we've not.
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I hate criticizing the program because I love it, I love Frank, and I love VT. But I think Frank gambled 15 years ago because he HAD to. Playing starters on special teams was innovative but also risky. If you have nothing (relatively) you stay down or you go for it. I can surely relate.
He beat the odds, then wisely, pulled back a bit on risks in order to maintain a consistent winner.
JMO, but that is how I see it. And I'm surely not complaining.
I hope now, in the twilight of his career, he gets a little bit of that urgency back and really goes for broke. I want to see some innovation. I want to see some gambling against superior (on paper) teams. Okay... I'll say it, I want to see some Frank swagger, just one time, as we approach the grand finale.
#beatthebegeezusouttaOSU
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Honestly...If Demetri Knowles can't do any better on KO's than last year, the strategy needs to be to let every kick bounce into the endzone for the complimentary 25 yds.
Same principle when the Hokies are kicking. They weren't great last year. Brantover or whoever needs to knock the shit out of that thing and let opponents have the 25 yard line. I'm OK with giving Coach Bud's D 75 yds to defend.
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Our KO returns last year weren't really a problem. Assuming HokieSports factors in touchbacks (they must, based on these numbers), our average return on a KO since 1998 is 21 +/- 2 yards. Last year, we were at 20.4. Punts were where we suffered badly. Average over the same time frame was 12 +/- 3; last year we had just about 4 yards per return.
Completely agree on our ability to kick, though. Way too many short kicks let our opponents start on the wrong side of the 35 or so.
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It's not good, but what I was pointing out is that over the years, we're no worse than we used to be. It is true that we could be doing better by getting an extra 5 yards, but of all the ST issues, it seems KO returns are the least of the problems.
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The problem I see in your point is in years prior to 2012, touchbacks were taken out to the 20 yard line. Therefore, if touchbacks are averaged into the return average, we are worse than we used to be.
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On an absolute scale, yes. I guess what I took away from the stats is this: over the past 15+ years, we have an average starting position on the field of our own 20. That hasn't changed, but the inability to then move the ball from that point has been. We suffer in other categories, especially in preventing returns. The larger point that we should always take a touchback is probably true. But when looking at ST issues, KO returns are the least problematic, from what I can see.
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I would be fine if we fair catch every punt/kick and never block another kick. IMO, the glaring special teams issues have been with coverage. Don't have time to look up the stats, but in the last two seasons I have seen our opponents gain more yards off kickoff/punt returns than ever before. If we're going to play field position football and rely heavily on our defense, we have to be stingy on special teams.
After all, if our opponent starts their offense drive on the 50, and goes three-and-out, our offense will likely fair catch around the 10-20 yard line. If our opponent starts at the 25 and goes three-and-out, our offense will likely catch ~25 yards closer to the endzone.
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I agree. As you can see from an earlier post. I love the idea of Beamerball. But if it ain't happenin', the Hokies just need to bet the house minimum on special teams and be safe.
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Andy nice write up. But seems a little off to write about ST and make no mention of the strength of our punting game. You had a nice piece last week on our outstanding punter and sometimes linebacker Hughes. Just seems like the bright spot in an otherwise gloomy ST outlook.
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Does anybody else miss blocking a kick it seemed like every other game? For the last couple years we have slid by blocking what 1 kick a year? While North Carolina is now known for blocking kicks, etc.
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Yep, we have been a huge embarrassment on special teams for several years now. Blocks? The excuses rain out about rules changes, while many other teams nationally continue doing what we used to do. Our 'offensive' part of special teams has been dead for about a decade now. It would really be nice if our leadership evolved with the rest of college football nation and returned us to our LONG lost excellence on special teams.
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Exactly. Remember the days when a team would line up to kick in a crucial situation and it was seemingly 50/50 that they would get it off? Opponents lived in absolute fear. It seemed we would block kicks whenever we really wanted to. It is almost ancient history now, and I wonder if recent grads can even comprehend the power that was once our special teams.
Miami 2001 - classic, classic case. It was as if we said, "OK, we've tried everything on O and nothing is working. It's getting late in the game. Time to pull out the punt block for a score". Boom. It was like magic.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but it sure seemed like it all went away when we started sharing all of our special teams secrets with other staffs. What's up with that????
Maybe I'm a petty, bitter man, but I just never understood that.
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I completely agree with the 50/50 comment, there was a time when if the opposing team got a kick off that we were disappointed, now it's just normal
I'm not sure we can chalk it up to "it all went away when we started sharing all of our special teams secrets with other staffs", the main reason was putting starters on ST, and quite frankly, that wasn't much of a secret.. outside of that, there really isn't anything any staff does that is kept a secret for long, there are some very smart coaches, and when given time and game film, can just about figure out what anyone is doing, once one coach/staff figures it out everyone else copycats from them.. it really comes down to one on one matchups and making plays, if you have your best playmakers in the game then you're more likely to make the plays
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There were several reasons, all of them encapsulated by - 'We quickly became too comfortable being on the fringe and retreated from bold actions to extremely conservative attitudes while refusing to evolve with the rest of college football.'
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People also started changing formations in response to what Beamer had been cooking up. 3-man walls, different protections etc. I don't think that comes from us sharing secrets, it's just what they can easily see for themselves.
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Comments
Great write up Andy! I think (and 100% agree) that it echoes the sentiment throughout Hokie Nation. Another thing is I'm a little mixed about using the top athletes for special teams. Won't that risk injury to their future professional careers? Hopefully Santamaria will work out.
Being more concerned with professional careers rather than winning at the college level seems like a total UVA move. Just being on a football field means you can get injured at any time. Larger point:
Beamer's trademark was using starters on ST; no one else was doing that back in the mid-90's. I think he still believes in putting the best athletes into the position to make plays. If we've got the depth to do it, put the second stringers out there. If they can't hack it, put in the best. Heck, our hero Kyle Fuller volunteered (along with several other starters) to play ST after the Bama debacle.
Yeah I know. I just get a little worried sometimes about freakass injuries. Also...holy crap! You've got 16k+ legs.
That's a constant worry. Hell, guys tear their ACLs celebrating touchdowns (sorry, Georgia). You just can't prevent that kind of thing.
Ted Ginn Jr broke his ankle/foot celebrating the opening kickoff for a TD vs UF.. Once he was out of the game UF murdered.
Also didn't our own dyrell roberts hurt himself on ST and was done for the year?? It's a tough thing but the meme/gif above says it all.
Yeah he did. And see that's the other side of the coin issue I have. A lot (one could even argue MOST) of the freakazz injuries occur on ST plays.
This is probably the most freak injury I've ever seen in a football game and it happened on a normal play:
I believe the risk of injury on special teams comes from the greater chance of being hit without seeing it coming. The hardest I remember getting hit in a football game was when I didn't see a guy coming at me on kickoff coverage because my focus was ahead and on staying in my lane and a blocker came from the side.
Heh, I was organizing videos on my camera while watching this game. I saw the injury, thought what the hell, re-round the DVR and posted a video to YouTube. The next morning it was picked up by AOL Sports and it had over 400k views:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHIqls5Fiec
dyrell hurt himself on ST but he was just as much of a playmaker there as he was at WR. he changed games with his KRs. i dont remember him really changing any games as a WR. he made a great catch to win the nebraska game but that was more tyrod working the field for 2 min scambling and other than that his most memorable moment as WR was catch over an app st player in a blow out game. ST is part of the game and can win or loose the game just like any D or O why would you not have your own group of "starters" for that as well? the best players on the field at all times.
The other thing to remember about Roberts' injury was that it wasn't like it was unique to ST play. He took a helmet to the thigh, and it was one of those freak things that just happened to lead to compartment syndrome. It's the kind of hit that can happen when anybody is running down the field. Had it been on a passing play, the safety could have come downfield and laid the same hit. Of course, the real problem is with the defender who dropped his head to torpedo-tackle him...
Yeah, playing it so conservatively that you don't use what has proven in the past works because you fear what MIGHT happen? That's meekly accepting the probability of defeat because you're afraid of taking a chance for victory. Very reminiscent of the quote by a former coach about the offense playing to stall to help the defense, instead of playing to score and win. Trying to justify that fear of striving for excellence by saying something 'could happen' or someone 'could get hurt' is extremely weak. You'll never be elite by doing that. Our special teams have NOT been special for a long time. Fear of change won't solve that.
Anyone remember this guy? Prolly wished he got hurt on special teams instead of like this.
Yeah, but it's not like that was a freak incident or anything, like you'd see on special teams.
The whole concept of BeamerBall vaporized the moment Beamer took his best offensive and defensive players off the units and started playing it like EVERY other school in football by putting in guys on Special Teams just to get them some game experience.
We need to get back to the point where being on Special Teams at Virginia Tech is a fucking honor. I want to see our starting RBs lining up over center ready to destroy the foe in front of him. I want our kick blocking units foaming at the mouth every 4th down ready to inflict punishment on the kicking team. C'mon, Frank, show us some damn balls and play mean, nasty football again. Enough with the 'trying to keep players healthy' shit. Virginia Tech's reputation was built on nasty defenses and an overwhelming special teams unit. Time to go back to our roots.
You go back and watch some of the highlights when our special teams were rolling, and the guys who were blocking kicks are the PLAYMAKERS in other areas of the game. We created mismatches because we put our best guys against kicking teams who were using the practice of keeping starters healthy by playing young guys to just get them experience. Our playmakers destroyed them game after game. You'd have guys like Lee Suggs blocking punts and it was awesome, because these guys played their asses off to get on the VT Special Teams units. There's a reason we STILL call it the Pride and Joy unit... But we don't treat it so, and its a damn shame.
As soon as I started reading your post, I said to myself, "I remember Lee Suggs blocking a punt..." Glad to see you brought that one up as an example. Classic.
It seems very much as if we are content to live on past special teams glories because of the fear to change or the inability to evolve. I think the retreat further and further back into a safe zone seems to be a common theme. There just doesn't seem to be a hunger to stretch for success. Unless the hunger returns, or is inserted from new direction, then we'll keep being embarrassed and having to listen to national commentators say things like 'Virginia Tech used to always be known for BeamerBall meaning great special teams play, but lately...'
I gave you a turkey leg for this. You should be proud. I'm not exactly a Turkey Leg whore. I don't just sling those things around.
The special teams play in the 90's is what endeared the Hokies to so many fans. It totally underscored the theme of those teams back then, which was we might not have the heralded 4 star recruits, but we will pump the shit out the iron in the weight room, and come game time we are going to hit you in the jaw with the best that we have from the opening kick to triple zeros in the fourth.
Every July I'm waiting and hoping that the Hokies will find that groove again.
You want Trey out there on ST? Our RB core is kinda thin. How about some backup RBs or receivers. I'd leave your coming-off-an-injury RB out.
We put Kyle and Kendall Fuller (among others) out there with a very thin CB group, resulting in improvement of the STs unit. I agree with some of the others here, Beamerball was made by putting impact players out there on STs. Okay, maybe you leave the guys who just got off their crutches out. Other than that I think we need the most talent on the field at all times.
Way to miss the forest by focusing on the trees.
Sure, there might be one-off places where you keep a kid off the Special Teams units (like, for example, if he's coming off a major knee injury) but the overall message stays the same. You open up the chance to play on the VT Special Teams to the entire roster of players, and you make it well known that its an honor to be on the unit, and you give some kind of team recognition or award for playing on it. Remake Special Teams to be the one thing kids come to VT to try and play on. Make being on the VT Special Teams fun again.
As for your other point on keeping guys off because it might impact other areas on the team. Honestly, its a chance worth taking, and a chance we SHOULD be taking, because its what Virginia Tech football was built upon. You block a kick, you turn every aspect of the game in your favor. Its a major swing of momentum that will usually win the game for the team that pulls it off. Guys get hurt all the time, its an unfortunate part of the game, and these injuries can happen at even the most mundane of times. Are we trying to win games, or are we trying to protect our stars to allow them to get more stats?
Not to mention, several other teams now have adopted our 'good ole days' strategy of putting certain top athletes on ST, even as we shrink from it. They don't seem to be afraid of freak injuries, mostly because they understand that is a faux excuse. As I said elsewhere, when you retreat SO far into a comfort bubble that your conservative play hobbles the team, it becomes an issue. And it has been an issue for us for quite a few years now. Sure, we can beat the directional teams but it's just another reason why we aren't beating the top teams. And the definition of 'top' seems to be broadening. We're trying to ascend to the upper tier of college football while only focusing on playing above average in one of the three components. The best defense in the nation can't overcome a flaccid offense and embarrassing special teams.
Well... its not only that... The problem now is that our Special Teams play isn't just not winning us games anymore, its actually costing us games. You can go back through the last couple years and its littered with teams that have beaten us based on Special Teams. 2012 FSU, Michigan in the Sugar Bowl, 2013 Alabama, etc. These games all turned on a dime because we screwed up on Special Teams.
At a certain point, you have to sit back and realize what we're doing just isn't working. By playing guys just to get them experience, we're actually putting our own team at a matchup disadvantage, and teams are capitalizing on it. Its probably the single biggest reason we've struggled the last few years with playing .500 ball. We cannot hold field position anymore, and even worse, teams are routinely breaking big runs and getting scores on our special teams. As I said before, are we trying to keep players healthy, or are we in the business of winning games?
I absolutely agree. I was merely avoiding the inevitable kickback whenever being too critical of Frank. I think the onus is completely on him. He just seems to be afraid or unable to evolve - whether we're discussing offense or special teams. It's really easy to stay on cruise control instead. For those inside the bubble it seems like we're 'almost there', but we are just so far away. We need to stretch, and we aren't stretching, we're relaxing. Every time this is mentioned, there seems to be a whole list of excuses why it might not work. Not reasons it won't work, excuses why it might not - so let's not even try it. It is unbelievably frustrating, and when I hear BeamerBall, I have to think to myself - 'I'ts gone from being a badge of honor to be a label of irony'. As you said, our special teams are a negative. Just as, so many times, in big games against elite teams, we do the most stupid things on special teams. Ever since the MNC against F$U, when ole Bobby owned Frank on ST.
Ugh... I just had flashbacks to TSL in the pre-Loeffler days when talking about the offense...
I dunno, I think Stinespring's problem was that he was far TOO willing to try virtually anything. Almost as if he thought a Playstation approach would work. Like the time he had the opening play after a long kick return feature a reverse - slow developing, of course - featuring the same guy who had just run back for about 40-50 yards. I could go on, but it would be picking a scab. Loeffler might not be innovative, but he at least seems consistent with a vision. That is miles ahead of what Frank allowed for over a decade by Stinespring.
Dyrel v Nebraska? I remember Stiney getting asked about that one. He talked about how they scripted the first however many plays, and that was the first play on the script. I know Bill Walsh did that but he was, you know, a football genius. Iunno, it kind of set the tone for the rest of the game after a solid start.
Yeah, I remember that being the excuse, as though we're supposed to believe such a ridiculous concept. If he'd made it all the way to the 5-yard line before being tackled, we would still run a reverse? With the same guy? We were supposed to believe that once the play was put on paper Friday that nothing could change the course of history? That nothing could change it? Because... why? It is those kind of statements made by the coaching staff that are insults to us as a fan base.
our depth has been lacking for the last couple years at skills positions. thats why the special teams has been too. we can barely put starters on the field at RB, WR and as good as our secondary has been the backups have been ehhh not good... see cinnci game in fedex. micheal cole wasnt good enough IMO to be a starter at safety but would have been a great ST player. we really just got depth at DB and Safety last year and now were building on that. i expect our coverage and block teams to get alot better this year and next. kicking thats a wholeeeeee nother story, need to step up the recuiting game we need some shane grahams and brandon paces that can kick long fgs and kickoff into the endzone.
look at the points we left on the board in the article andy wrote. what 7 TDS on ST and 3 pick sixs. clean up those things hokie nation and we are a top 5 football team again. and those are easily fixable things. for all you who think we are really far away from continding for a NCS we are never that far when our D is playing the way we know they can play.
Our special teams have suffered for more than two season. Also, most of the special teams stars have not been RBs or WRs. Yeah, if you want to pretend that special teams is only about return yardage, then maybe. But Frank showed the world over 15 years ago that special teams is about far more than that. And all the 'far more than that' is where we've deflated for the last several years, way more than just two. The problem is that we've not evolved beyond that mindset from fifteen-plus years ago, we've actually regressed behind it. The game has changed, and we've not.
I hate criticizing the program because I love it, I love Frank, and I love VT. But I think Frank gambled 15 years ago because he HAD to. Playing starters on special teams was innovative but also risky. If you have nothing (relatively) you stay down or you go for it. I can surely relate.
He beat the odds, then wisely, pulled back a bit on risks in order to maintain a consistent winner.
JMO, but that is how I see it. And I'm surely not complaining.
I hope now, in the twilight of his career, he gets a little bit of that urgency back and really goes for broke. I want to see some innovation. I want to see some gambling against superior (on paper) teams. Okay... I'll say it, I want to see some Frank swagger, just one time, as we approach the grand finale.
#beatthebegeezusouttaOSU
Honestly...If Demetri Knowles can't do any better on KO's than last year, the strategy needs to be to let every kick bounce into the endzone for the complimentary 25 yds.
Same principle when the Hokies are kicking. They weren't great last year. Brantover or whoever needs to knock the shit out of that thing and let opponents have the 25 yard line. I'm OK with giving Coach Bud's D 75 yds to defend.
Our KO returns last year weren't really a problem. Assuming HokieSports factors in touchbacks (they must, based on these numbers), our average return on a KO since 1998 is 21 +/- 2 yards. Last year, we were at 20.4. Punts were where we suffered badly. Average over the same time frame was 12 +/- 3; last year we had just about 4 yards per return.
Completely agree on our ability to kick, though. Way too many short kicks let our opponents start on the wrong side of the 35 or so.
This may be a dumb question, but if the average last year was 20.4, with a 25 yd touchback...doesn't that pretty much suck?
(Legitimate question, no sarcastica.)
It's not particularly good. We ranked 77th in kick off returns and 107th in punt returns.
It's not good, but what I was pointing out is that over the years, we're no worse than we used to be. It is true that we could be doing better by getting an extra 5 yards, but of all the ST issues, it seems KO returns are the least of the problems.
The problem I see in your point is in years prior to 2012, touchbacks were taken out to the 20 yard line. Therefore, if touchbacks are averaged into the return average, we are worse than we used to be.
On an absolute scale, yes. I guess what I took away from the stats is this: over the past 15+ years, we have an average starting position on the field of our own 20. That hasn't changed, but the inability to then move the ball from that point has been. We suffer in other categories, especially in preventing returns. The larger point that we should always take a touchback is probably true. But when looking at ST issues, KO returns are the least problematic, from what I can see.
it does but thats assuming your catching the ball inside the 5 everytime too.
I would be fine if we fair catch every punt/kick and never block another kick. IMO, the glaring special teams issues have been with coverage. Don't have time to look up the stats, but in the last two seasons I have seen our opponents gain more yards off kickoff/punt returns than ever before. If we're going to play field position football and rely heavily on our defense, we have to be stingy on special teams.
After all, if our opponent starts their offense drive on the 50, and goes three-and-out, our offense will likely fair catch around the 10-20 yard line. If our opponent starts at the 25 and goes three-and-out, our offense will likely catch ~25 yards closer to the endzone.
I agree. As you can see from an earlier post. I love the idea of Beamerball. But if it ain't happenin', the Hokies just need to bet the house minimum on special teams and be safe.
Andy nice write up. But seems a little off to write about ST and make no mention of the strength of our punting game. You had a nice piece last week on our outstanding punter and sometimes linebacker Hughes. Just seems like the bright spot in an otherwise gloomy ST outlook.
Does anybody else miss blocking a kick it seemed like every other game? For the last couple years we have slid by blocking what 1 kick a year? While North Carolina is now known for blocking kicks, etc.
UNC is good at ST because you don't have to READ the other team as much. It's either a kick or a fake kick.
Hey, we blocked two kicks in 2013!
And sadly it was the exception for the last several years not the rule.
Yep, we have been a huge embarrassment on special teams for several years now. Blocks? The excuses rain out about rules changes, while many other teams nationally continue doing what we used to do. Our 'offensive' part of special teams has been dead for about a decade now. It would really be nice if our leadership evolved with the rest of college football nation and returned us to our LONG lost excellence on special teams.
Exactly. Remember the days when a team would line up to kick in a crucial situation and it was seemingly 50/50 that they would get it off? Opponents lived in absolute fear. It seemed we would block kicks whenever we really wanted to. It is almost ancient history now, and I wonder if recent grads can even comprehend the power that was once our special teams.
Miami 2001 - classic, classic case. It was as if we said, "OK, we've tried everything on O and nothing is working. It's getting late in the game. Time to pull out the punt block for a score". Boom. It was like magic.
Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but it sure seemed like it all went away when we started sharing all of our special teams secrets with other staffs. What's up with that????
Maybe I'm a petty, bitter man, but I just never understood that.
It was a case of naivete & ego overwhelming business sense. Followed by zero desire or ability to evolve beyond the original concepts.
I completely agree with the 50/50 comment, there was a time when if the opposing team got a kick off that we were disappointed, now it's just normal
I'm not sure we can chalk it up to "it all went away when we started sharing all of our special teams secrets with other staffs", the main reason was putting starters on ST, and quite frankly, that wasn't much of a secret.. outside of that, there really isn't anything any staff does that is kept a secret for long, there are some very smart coaches, and when given time and game film, can just about figure out what anyone is doing, once one coach/staff figures it out everyone else copycats from them.. it really comes down to one on one matchups and making plays, if you have your best playmakers in the game then you're more likely to make the plays
There were several reasons, all of them encapsulated by - 'We quickly became too comfortable being on the fringe and retreated from bold actions to extremely conservative attitudes while refusing to evolve with the rest of college football.'
People also started changing formations in response to what Beamer had been cooking up. 3-man walls, different protections etc. I don't think that comes from us sharing secrets, it's just what they can easily see for themselves.
Frank holding clinics telling people how to dissect it didn't help any.
I still hate I had to miss that game driving back from the beach.
Couldn't find it on the radio either.