Losing confidence in Shane. 4 games into another season of lousy results, and he still doesn't grasp that a RB needs to get into a rhythm.
Even if he has full confidence in both backs, he's not doing either of them a favor with this rotation.
Does this sort of rotation work anywhere running a standard (non-spread or option) offense?
ETA:
"I dont just want to put those guys on the shelf where they dont have a role for the rest of the season," Beamer said. "Because theyre key members of this team and can do stuff for us."
This doesn't sound like a coach. This sounds like a buddy.
Their role is to be ready to come in if there's an injury. I love J.C. But judging from his performance this year when he's finally healthy, he's not the best fit in any situation, and he shouldn't be taking carries that anyone, a non-100% Edmunds included, can execute better.
I think we should see something like 60/30/10, with Shai getting the nod over Williams, with Edmunds taking the remainder. If the game isn't in doubt, feed JC a few.
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^yes. please.
So fun to watch Saban's reaction on the sidelines. I was at that game with an LSU alum as a guest-he was in shock.
But as a neophyte of French, it's hard to watch that and not be impressed with the blocking: both the O-line and the downfield blocking. Some of those holes were massive.
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To be fair, we went from legitimate National Title contender to slowly regressing to the point where 2012 was allowed to happen.
The 10 wins were nice, but it came during a period of legitimate weakness in the ACC. With better competition in the conference, that 10 win streak likely never really gets off the ground, and perhaps our offensive issues force a change a lot sooner than we made them, and we don't regress nearly as far as we do...
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I didn't mean to imply there was a big drop off and I might be comparing apples to oranges but it is just frustrating to see a guy like Saban having revived a program like Bama, where as Frank has just maintained. I like Frank a lot and admire his values. Yet at the same time I wish those coaching changes had come many years ago. We are starting to finally see what this team's potential can be yet at the same time see how fragile that offensive success can be due to the youth and complexity of the new system. I'd like to see a comparison of yards per carry in man blocking vs zone. I know we can't start to tailor personnel only to a certain blocking scheme as that will eventually tip the defense but it would be interesting to know.
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People like to hate on Saban, but he's a transcendent mind in college football. Andy Staples had a fantastic article about him: linked here and it's worth a read. While Frank is an innovator in his own right (Special Teams/Beamerball) Saban has taken it to the next level. He could have gone to any power school and made it a contender. As much as people bag on him, I respect his gangster.
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Honestly, with Mike Vick's run being the exception, the Hokies have ALWAYS had offensive issues. The team was built on defense and a passable run game. Period.
Many of the big program wins were because the defense absolutely dominated, and VT was able to flip field position and control the clock. That's Beamerball.
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Let's see...how many out of the power I? Uhhhh....100 percent! That isn't dork magic folks! That is designed man blocking which is how we won; with man/hole blocking! I love that clip on the goal lobe against Marshall! That's how we use to roll!
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Have to agree, still have no clue why Beamer did not make his son an OL assistant or ST assistant since that is the position he actually played so he would have some knowledge of it. And i know the whole family thing is an issue, is dad going to say no to his son and embarass him in public? I have trouble saying no to my 4 and 1 year old sons, I can only imagine the pressure Frank is feeling when his son is failing so spectacullary and in public especially given his track record of staying loyal to assistant coaches that cannot cut it...
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Shane has coached RBs, CBs, OLB, Special Teams, Strong Safeties, and USCe's Spurs. He never played a single one of those positions other than on Special Teams. A good coach isn't just going to coach his position. He's going to have a knowledge of the game as a whole. Shane is developing that and will do just fine. The success of his position is predicated on more than just whether his guys run or not. You don't blast a QB coach for not being able to coach if the WRs drop the ball all the time. We are speculating on why certain players are going in the game at certain times without knowing whether the RB in the game was tired (which Shai was on the 3rd & 1 that Marshawn went in for and got stuffed) or feeling pain and need a break.
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why certain players are going in the game at certain times without knowing whether the RB in the game was tired ... or feeling pain and need a break.
I think we are responding to a rb rotation two years in that has yet to produce good results. Yes, last year, Edmunds started breaking out. Any coincidence that happened because he was getting the lions share of the carries?
We are responding to a RB coache's statement that seems at odds with reality. Look, the sample size is small, I agree. And lots of factors go into a successful run play.
But the sample size on JC is pretty large going over a number of years. I think we should all be able to agree that if Shai is tired or hurt, Juice or Edmunds should sub in before JC.
And Shai and Juice have a similar number of carries, but I think it's becoming apparent that Shai has the slight edge. If you want to debate which of those two should get the majority of the carries, great. I honestly just want the primary back to have the opportunity to settle into the role, and start feeling the flow of the game and getting instinctive with finding the holes.
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The sample size on JC is large, but has he had a decent line to run behind? That line that for 2 years put Logan in a position where he often had to tuck it in run or get sacked. Look, I'm not saying JC should play, but our lack of success in the running game is just as much a result of poor run blocking as it is on poor reads by our RBs and yet our RB coach is the one getting reamed by the fan base while our OL coach is sitting pretty. Whether the coach is new or not, they can still take part of the blame. I have no problem with people being upset with Shane. The problem I have is the tunnel vision that prevents others from seeing the whole picture. Yes, we've had more success when we give one RB the ball more, but no RB has started a game hot and forced the coach to play them more. When we have this much talent, a coach isn't going to play the same RB and hope that he gets hot as the game goes on. They are going to get someone else in there and see if they can open something up.
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This topic is specifically about the RB coach, and where he may need to improve.
Problems with the O-line have not been ignored on TKP, and I don't think anyone on this thread yet has said it's all or even mostly Shane's fault. If that's the impression you got from me, I assure you, that is not my intent.
Obviously, as I stated before, a lot goes into the success or failure of a specific play.
On this thread, we're discussing the role of the RB coach in mitigating the ways a play may fail.
So apologies if I wasn't clear, but yes I agree: the OL bears its share of responsibility in our running game woes.
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I realize that this is about RBs, but when talking about their success, or lack thereof, and the running game, everybody only focuses on Shane. I've rarely ever heard anyone say "Searels/Grimes need to get it together and get those linemen to block for our RBs." It's very pedantic to hear the same "Shane doesn't deserve his position because he sucks at it" rant from people (not you specifically, just many fans in general). The reason we on TKP even notice these things is because we have a wizard named French who tells us where the OL messes up. He's also able to tell us where the OL succeeds and the RB messes up. The only reason I brought up the OL is because of the argument that Shane shouldn't be RB coach because his RBs aren't successful. A successful play is due to the combination of 11 people being successful in doing their job and each of them has a coach that teaches them how to do so.
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Yes, last year, Edmunds started breaking out. Any coincidence that happened because he was getting the lions share of the carries?
I'm not even sure that's the case, as many times as not going down the stretch last year JCC had a similar amount of carries as Trey, Trey racked up a lot of carries early in the season when JCC was hurt... If you're saying he hit his stride late in the year that was when he was sharing carries
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This is a great point in regards to good coaches not coaching their own positions, and growing to understand the game and its nuances as a whole, and i completely agree with that.
I do have a question, and this is purely a question from curiosity, so not baiting here for a long discussion, was he successful as the CBs, OLB, ST, SS, and USCe coach? I myself cannot answer that, and have not followed Shane's career enough to know.
Because just on the RB situation alone, I think he is average at best.
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Here are some of the highlights from various position groups that he coached:
MSU CBs:
This past season [2005], both Derek Pegues and Keith Fitzhugh earned Freshman All-SEC recognition under Beamer's leadership, giving him three freshman all-league players in just two seasons. In his first year [2004] at MSU, he helped Demario Bobo achieve the same status at the cornerback position.
MSU RBs: Was only in the position one year, and no info on season on Mississippi State's webpage. Sports reference shows that his leading rusher that year was true freshman and future 6th round draft pick Anthony Dixon who over 12 games ran for 668 yards and 9 Touchdowns on 169 carries (averaged about 4 yards per carry, 14 carries a game, and 55 yards a game). The next two backs averaged 5 and 3.2 carries per game, so it looks like Dixon was getting a little over 60% of the rb touches.
USCe year 1-OLBs and Special Teams Co-Coordinator: Not a lot of info on how his OLBs or Special teams fared
USCe year 2-CBs:
He worked with the cornerbacks in his second campaign. That 2008 unit was one of the most productive on the field as they were part of a defensive squad that finished the regular season ranked second in the nation in pass defense and 13th in total defense. Two of his players, Stoney Woodson and Carlos Thomas, combined for seven interceptions. South Carolina held opposing offenses to just 159.2 yards per game and only nine touchdowns through the air.
USCe year 3&4-Spurs/strong safeties/special teams/recruiting coordinator: His first recruiting class was ranked #12 by Scout and Rivals. Also:
In 2009, Beamer's special teams units recorded five blocked kicks, tying for the SEC lead and tying for the eighth highest total in the nation. In addition, Spencer Lanning converted on 85 percent (17-of-20) of his field goal attempts in his first season in that role. Beamer helped coach a defense that ranked third in the SEC and 15th in the country in total defense and second in the league and eighth in the land in passing defense. The Gamecocks' 2010 recruiting class was again ranked among the nation's top 25. Beamer was nominated for the 2009 Frank Broyles Assistant Coach of the Year award following the season.
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I strongly dislike this argument. Where you played may have some advantage, but that is probably maximized if you were a very good to great player (see Torrian Gray). But there are soooooo many examples of great coaches who focus on areas they did not play. Urban Meyer was a DB at Cinncy, that's the clearest national example. Locally, Jim Cavanaugh was a great Whips coach....he played QB at W&M and coached nearly every position in his career.
If you know the game, and Frank thinks that Shane does (and Shane's resume is representative of good experience), then you can coach multiple positions.
Shane was a long snapper. He played 4th string whip. He was on the KO coverage team. He was most definitely not a great player or even a good player. But that doesn't mean he can't be a great coach.
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I don't know how it translates to football, but it's conventional wisdom in baseball that great players almost always make terrible managers, and great managers were almost always below-average players. The guys who had to work hard to learn their skills seem to be good at teaching those skills.
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Does this sort of rotation work anywhere running a standard (non-spread or option) offense?
It does, and it has at multiple levels of the game. We've seen it work with us numerous times in the past. (Suggs & Jones, Imoh & Humes, Evans & Williams) This has also worked in the NFL, where you've seen teams like the Panthers ride tandems (2003 - Davis & Foster, 2008 - Stewart & Williams, 2013 - Williams & Tolbert) to a first round bye in the playoffs (and nearly won them the Super Bowl in 2003).
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But - I don't think the pros necessarily are a fair comparison.
Suggs & Jones, Evans & Williams both came about because the veteran had an injury, which allowed Jones & Williams to get into the groove of the game at Div 1 speed. When the veteran was healthy again, you had 2 experienced RB's ready to roll.
Plus: both were exceptional RB's out of High School -- and not taking anything away from Shai & Juice, but I think Jones & RW were on a whole different level. Jones had the speed to make any small hole a home-run, and RW had the jukes to do the same.
Shai and Juice may be better all-round backs -- but they don't quite have the natural escapability to turn solid plays into home-runs.
So between the difference in raw talent, and the difference in experience, I don't see how this current rotation can be expected to show quick improvement in either Shai or Juice.
And if that is the goal -- if throwing away earlier improvement for a primary back has been deemed ok in a rebuilding season where the goal is to come into next year with 3 experienced backs -- well I guess that argument could be made.
It's not though, and instead I'm hearing stuff that makes me worry Shane just isn't a fit to be RB coach.
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Ehh, I kind of get what you're saying, but I am kind of looking at it another way (which I think I described yesterday, but I don't expect anyone to hunt it down, so I'll explain again).
There's one constant that runs among each and every one of those tandems. There's one bruiser (Suggs, Humes, Evans, Stephen Davis, Jonathan Stewart, Mike Tolbert) that came in and just pounded away at the defense all game and another back who has next level abilities who can burn the defense in space (Jones, Imoh, Williams, DeShaun Foster, DeAngelo Williams). Most of these teams would spend the majority of the game pounding away at the defense with their bruiser, slowly loosening up the middle of the field as the defense grew tired. And once those tackles became just a small bit weaker, and once the defense was just a step too slow on the snap, thats when the shifty back could be unleashed, and there was no stopping the attack.
I have zero problems with the concept of the RB rotation. It quickly breaks down a defense, with them getting tired as you keep rotating in a fresh but talented RB. We have a tandem right now (bruiser-Williams, shifty-Shai) that has every ability in the world to have a ton of success, but we're struggling, and I believe the struggles are 2-fold. First, our OL is struggling badly at run blocking. When we do run up the middle, there just aren't any holes to run through, and when there are, the OL hasn't been able to consistently shed that first block in order to pick up a LB to allow our RBs to break a decent run. Secondly (and I believe this is a product of the first one) we're not really pounding the rock up the middle. Most of our runs are seemingly off-tackle right now, and of course there are the 2-3 sweeps we run every game. With better OL play, we have all the pieces in place to have a very effective all around offense. Loeffler is drawing up some legitimately great passing plays where guys are getting open by design, and we are effectively moving the ball through the air better than we have since the 90s. We just need the OL to continue improving at the rate they are and we'll be good. It just won't be this year.
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I agree with most of what you are saying, I really do.
My only quibble is that with 2 freshmen RB's, who don't have the game-changing skills of a Kevin Jones or Ryan Williams or David Wilson, reps are key for either of them to get into the rhythm of both the college game, and the specific rhythm of how there OL is doing against a specific D.
Yes, the OL has struggled up the middle. However, as French showed in his film review, there were some missed holes by the RBs.
I could be talking completely out my a$$ here, but I feel that any really good to great RB gets better as the game progresses (up to the point of exhaustion), and a big part of that is getting a feel for where his Oline is having success.
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But unfortunately, we don't have the veteran guy who is good enough to break the top 2 on the roster right now. Coleman, as much as it sucks, just isn't the guy to get it done for us, and Trey is still recovering from injury. I'm sure if there was a seasoned veteran who the coaching staff as a whole felt better about putting in the Top 2 rotation, he'd be there, but we just don't. The good part is that Williams & MacKenzie are getting invaluable experience right now that will pay off ten-fold in a year or so, but we're just going through growing pains now. Once it clicks for these guys (and it will, we saw glimpses of it against Ohio St) our running game is going to be STRONG. Combine that with what we've seen from the passing game, and we're going to have a complete offense to compliment a tough defense. Unfortunately, we're just going to have to be patient.
I'm not going to lie, I'm really liking what I see out of our offense this year. I can see how a year down the line when we have a first unit that has been running this for 2 to 3 years of experience with everyone on the same page, it's going to be a fun thing to be a part of. Right now, we're just struggling with an OL that is desperately trying to catch up to where it needs to be, and a bunch of young players who, while extremely talented, are still trying to learn what they have to do.
I'm not ready to give up on Shane as a RB coach. I personally think we have to allow the offense to gel as a whole before we can see if he's truly a weak link. Its too short sighted to make any kind of wholesale judgement at this point.
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In addition to what everyone else has answered about a 2 back system, when VT is going hurry-up it is an added benefit to have a couple backs split time, as the defense wears down the RBs are still going strong
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^^^^ 100 % Also . Since he doesn't have to decide which back is situationally the best , Shane does not have to think or coach. Just rotate by series , give his boy a carry & a chance to score inside the 20 & everyone is happy. Has not been working.
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I wish that Trey Edmunds had stayed on the defense right about now... It's great to see him on special teams. He can really bring the pain.
Between him, Newsome, and the two freshmen, I don't really see anything that JC could bring to the table. Can someone please ask Shane what he is talking about specifically when he says "Because theyre key members of this team and can do stuff for us", in regards to JC?
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JC looks like he could be a Darren Sproles kinda guy. Maybe try to hit him in the passing game. The two freshmen are great but a faster RB might do us some good.
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"Looks like" and "coul" are the main points. But it does suck that his isn't playing up to that potential. For some reason I want to see some speed out of the RB's. Like Trey Edmunds best run at Alabama last year.
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I don't wish for Trey to have stayed on defense. By the end of the year last year he was hitting a stride: improved vision and ran more decisively! I think his speed is underrated. As explained by French before (as far as I understand) when running with the QB handing the ball you got 11 defenders on 10 (unless wild turkey formation). There is always gonna be an unblocked defender. The RB has to win those one on ones. Unfortunately to this point I (from my novice observation) have not seen JC win any of those. Once healthy I think it's gonna be Trey, Shai and Marshawn or whoever is got a hot hand, or at least that's what I hope to see.
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Can someone please ask Shane what he is talking about specifically when he says "Because theyre key members of this team and can do stuff for us", in regards to JC?
That question was answered somewhere recently (sorry I don't remember where). There are certain passing protections that JC knows from last year that the freshmen haven't had a chance to learn. Or something like that.
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Series-by-series is not preferred. Why can't it be more situational? Remember when they would rotate Trey and JC and it would be JC's series 3rd and goal from the 2? That's dumb. Remember how they used Imoh and Humes in yardage situations that demanded their running styles? Not so dumb.
I could see using both in the same game, obviously, but it needs to be a little more thought out than "every other series".
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Billy Hite was the RB coach then. He made two and three star RB's look like gold. We need some Trey and Joel Caleb. I think we could benefit from some tough speed guys. The two freshman are good, but dont have breakaway speed.
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I more than believe Shai and Marshawn have earned the #1 and #2 spots. There's a reason we don't see much Caleb and Trey. For as much criticism as Shane warrants for some of his positions on back rotation, he's smart enough to at least figure out the depth chart most times.
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He did have JC co #1 with Marshawn to start the year with Shai behind both of them. I personally feel like Shai should be the starter with Marshawn next. It could just be me, but it seems like Shai hits the hole quicker and has a little bit better vision and maybe a little more speed than Marshawn. Marshawn is definitely a good back who picks up those yards after contact and can wear a defense down over a whole game but I agree about using these guys situational and not just by series. I guess the only problem with that is if you only use certain guys in certain situations the defense might be able to better guess what is coming when certain guys are in.
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i still contend that trey is the best RB on the roster. he really came on strong in the time leading up to his injury last year and he's looked good in the very limited time he's gotten this year.
great speed, too. i'm sure you all remember his gallop against alabama.
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Indeed. I think working him in slow like they have is smart. I wouldn't be surprised to see heavy doses of Trey this Saturday to get him some more reps and confidence off the injury while some of the other guys go light before ACC play.
That's what I'd do on NCAA14 anyway.
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I have less Confidence in Shane Beamer to ever make the Right decision on the RB rotation. IMHO , he is not a RB Coach and wants to play everyone. Daddy should have made him the Special Teams Coach , He couldn't screw it as much as the ole man has in the last four years.. Rant over with .
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I think it's unnecessarily pejorative to imply Shane got and keeps his job because of "Daddy".
CFB has a lot of great traits, but I don't count loyalty to a struggling assistant coach as one of them. Stinespring and Newsome had far too long a rope in positions that didn't suit them.
Shane may or may not understand 90 percent of the skills required to be RB coach. I think our RBs are doing pretty darned well at blocking assignment and ball security (which improved after looking bad) under him. I said that I'm starting to lose confidence in him -- but that doesn't mean I don't think he can't improve.
What he's doesn't appear to be getting in my mind: That he is a coach first. And a coach sometimes has to disappoint a really great kid, in deference to a better player, or a better strategy.
But please, let's not stoop to insinuating that the only way Shane got and keeps his job is because his dad is the Head Coach.
History belies that pretty definitively.
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When you say "rant over with"... does this include future "rants" of this nature?
Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes.
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Always find something to complain about.... some people....
It's not like one RB is head and shoulders above the others. It's not like we are even running the ball that much.
Shane doesn't need to stick with one RB. He hasn't been forced to do it because of performance. He is starting 2 true freshmen when fans even admit he loves himself some JCC.
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In saying "every series" does he mean "every SERIES" or every drive. I can understand rotating Shai and Marshawn on every drive obviously subsituting when someone is tired or hurt or something. And as most people agree with, JC shouldn't be getting the ball in the backfield. If you want to put him in with another back and have him run a wheel route or a screen as a check down ok. But unless we are up by 4 TD's or something he doesn't need to be given the ball out of the backfield. Especially in the redzone. It should be Shai and Marshawn and then Trey as a third back. Lets see how many backs get carries this saturday and then wonder why our running game isn't gaining any traction.
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Agree with TheVTAdrian about all the negativity; everyone loves a scapegoat, and Shane is an easy target. There have been lots of comments on the site since Saturday about how dumb it was to pull Shai out of the game while he was in the groove, yet no one has mentioned that this article explains why...for those that did not read it, Shai rolled an ankle before the missed third down conversion, then on another drive asked to come out after back to back runs.
And how about the other HUGE positive from this article, the leadership and maturity of Trey.
"It just makes me work harder," he said. "You want competition, especially if you want to play at the next level. And I feel like we definitely have that in the backfield this year. And each and every one of us pushes the other guys. May the best man go out there and show his talents."
He is a true Hokie, and I am confident his brothers are cut from the same cloth. There is a lot of young talent on this team to go along with a lot of great personalities.
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I agree, to an extent.
However, the stated goal is to put these players in the situation where they can have the most success.
I'm not sure I'm seeing that yet with our RB corps.
Better now than at the first of the year, but it's been baby steps.
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When our OL can consistently keep guys out of the backfield and get push for our running plays, every one of them, yes even JC, can achieve success. I've yet to see that happen consistently. Some plays are good, but most aren't.
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Any chance of a film study on the running backs this season? I would love to see French break down some unsuccessful runs on short yardage plays, like that 3rd and 1 against GT that Williams failed to pick up.
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I don't accept that whole RBs aren't getting into a rhythm argument. There are other teams that rotate backs more frequently then VT does and have success. It's purely a point of execution by the offense at this point. Looking at our own conference - NC State rotates 4 backs and they have had 3 straight games of rushing 200+ yds per game, something the school hasn't done since 1994. The difference between States offense this year compared to last year (with similar caliber of teams played) is better execution at the QB (10td/1int ratio), low turnover margin, execution of blocking scheme on the OL, lack of offensive penalties, and RBs getting N/S as quickly as possible.
Not saying State is a world beater, but it's amazing how much better an offense looks that is executing and is holding on to the football. I think VT is on the cusp, just need to cut down the mistakes drastically. They're killing themselves.
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Georgia Southern
Old Dominion
South Florida
Presbyterian
Yeah, I wouldn't use NC State as the baseline for what an offense should do. Now, if they continue that pace this weekend against Florida State, then we'll talk.
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My argument was based on their performance last year vs this year with 4 similar opponents and the fact that they were in a new offense last year. The difference in their performance between this year and last year are night and day for the reasons I stated above. State leads the ACC in total offense and ranks in the top half of the league in rushing yards per game. They weren't doing that last year against 4 similar opponents. And I would argue that every offense in the ACC should be averaging 200 yds passing and 200 yds rushing against that schedule.
Thornton ran for 173 yds last year against FSU, the key is going to be containing Eddie Goldman (DT, FSU) on the inside and limit his ability to distrupt inside run plays.
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Your argument is a good one. I'm not sure we could rush for 200 yards against blocking dummies right now. The RB rotation is a red herring.
People busted on Dave Dorren for his dismal first year, but that guy knows offense, rushing offenses in particular. I'm still not sure what it is that Loeffler knows. His offensive identity is a mystery.
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So you think we could give all our RB's on the roster the same amount of carries, and they'd all have similar stats?
NC State's stats imply a pretty dominating O-line over their competition thus far. I'd be surprised to see that sort of performance continue through the year.
Nobody is saying the rotation is the only factor here. It's a factor that is easily addressed though.
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We've already addressed the RB rotation. The best two RB's are getting the vast majority of the carries. JCC is now left to play "exotic package" guy. That's not a RB issue, that's a "Loeffler has too many ideas" issue. To complain about JCC is to complain about Deon Newsome. They are the same player now. One-offs.
and they are working in Trey because there is a reasonable chance once he back to healthy, he's out best back. Our our 2nd best back (cough...less fumbles....cough).
Right now, our sample size on which is the better back between Williams and McKenzie is too small to draw any conclusions. the RB rotation is fine. We have a lot of other problems, I don't see that as one of them.
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Nobody is saying the rotation is the only factor here. It's a factor that is easily addressed though.
And it's a factor we were assured over the summer would be addressed before the season started. We will never know what would have happened if the coaching staff had decided after the spring game that Williams would get 60% of the carries and McKenzie would get 30% (or vice versa), with first-team practice reps distributed accordingly. I, for one, think the running game would be better. I can't say we would be 4-0 if that had happened, but you can't say we wouldn't be, either.
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I think it would have been pretty outlandish for the coaching staff to decide that McKenzie would be getting a certain percentage of the carries this year after the Spring Game, when he hadn't even gone through a full contact college practice yet. Even though he was the highest ranked of our freshmen backs, he was also coming off a very serious injury and many of us were expecting him to take a redshirt before fall camp started.
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Losing confidence in Shane. 4 games into another season of lousy results, and he still doesn't grasp that a RB needs to get into a rhythm.
Even if he has full confidence in both backs, he's not doing either of them a favor with this rotation.
Does this sort of rotation work anywhere running a standard (non-spread or option) offense?
ETA:
This doesn't sound like a coach. This sounds like a buddy.
Their role is to be ready to come in if there's an injury. I love J.C. But judging from his performance this year when he's finally healthy, he's not the best fit in any situation, and he shouldn't be taking carries that anyone, a non-100% Edmunds included, can execute better.
I think we should see something like 60/30/10, with Shai getting the nod over Williams, with Edmunds taking the remainder. If the game isn't in doubt, feed JC a few.
Uhhhh, i believe the answer to that question is yes:
^yes. please.
So fun to watch Saban's reaction on the sidelines. I was at that game with an LSU alum as a guest-he was in shock.
But as a neophyte of French, it's hard to watch that and not be impressed with the blocking: both the O-line and the downfield blocking. Some of those holes were massive.
And look at where Saban is now with 2 National championships. Looking back at the years after 1999 I wonder what we did with that momentum?
8 straight 10 win seasons? Multiple ACC Championships? BCS Bowl win?
To be fair, we went from legitimate National Title contender to slowly regressing to the point where 2012 was allowed to happen.
The 10 wins were nice, but it came during a period of legitimate weakness in the ACC. With better competition in the conference, that 10 win streak likely never really gets off the ground, and perhaps our offensive issues force a change a lot sooner than we made them, and we don't regress nearly as far as we do...
Agreed but it looked like FloridaHokie was asking that if after 1999 we had a big drop off which I don't think is true.
I didn't mean to imply there was a big drop off and I might be comparing apples to oranges but it is just frustrating to see a guy like Saban having revived a program like Bama, where as Frank has just maintained. I like Frank a lot and admire his values. Yet at the same time I wish those coaching changes had come many years ago. We are starting to finally see what this team's potential can be yet at the same time see how fragile that offensive success can be due to the youth and complexity of the new system. I'd like to see a comparison of yards per carry in man blocking vs zone. I know we can't start to tailor personnel only to a certain blocking scheme as that will eventually tip the defense but it would be interesting to know.
People like to hate on Saban, but he's a transcendent mind in college football. Andy Staples had a fantastic article about him: linked here and it's worth a read. While Frank is an innovator in his own right (Special Teams/Beamerball) Saban has taken it to the next level. He could have gone to any power school and made it a contender. As much as people bag on him, I respect his gangster.
Honestly, with Mike Vick's run being the exception, the Hokies have ALWAYS had offensive issues. The team was built on defense and a passable run game. Period.
Many of the big program wins were because the defense absolutely dominated, and VT was able to flip field position and control the clock. That's Beamerball.
I watched some excellent offensive performances and very good o-line play from '93 to '96
That kind of blocking. We need that. I miss that. I think we all miss that.
Vote NOT Shane for HC in the future.
this makes no sense. what does that have to do with Shane?
Let's see...how many out of the power I? Uhhhh....100 percent! That isn't dork magic folks! That is designed man blocking which is how we won; with man/hole blocking! I love that clip on the goal lobe against Marshall! That's how we use to roll!
Have to agree, still have no clue why Beamer did not make his son an OL assistant or ST assistant since that is the position he actually played so he would have some knowledge of it. And i know the whole family thing is an issue, is dad going to say no to his son and embarass him in public? I have trouble saying no to my 4 and 1 year old sons, I can only imagine the pressure Frank is feeling when his son is failing so spectacullary and in public especially given his track record of staying loyal to assistant coaches that cannot cut it...
Shane has coached RBs, CBs, OLB, Special Teams, Strong Safeties, and USCe's Spurs. He never played a single one of those positions other than on Special Teams. A good coach isn't just going to coach his position. He's going to have a knowledge of the game as a whole. Shane is developing that and will do just fine. The success of his position is predicated on more than just whether his guys run or not. You don't blast a QB coach for not being able to coach if the WRs drop the ball all the time. We are speculating on why certain players are going in the game at certain times without knowing whether the RB in the game was tired (which Shai was on the 3rd & 1 that Marshawn went in for and got stuffed) or feeling pain and need a break.
Agreed on the well-rounded coach aspect.
Disagree that we are speculating
I think we are responding to a rb rotation two years in that has yet to produce good results. Yes, last year, Edmunds started breaking out. Any coincidence that happened because he was getting the lions share of the carries?
We are responding to a RB coache's statement that seems at odds with reality. Look, the sample size is small, I agree. And lots of factors go into a successful run play.
But the sample size on JC is pretty large going over a number of years. I think we should all be able to agree that if Shai is tired or hurt, Juice or Edmunds should sub in before JC.
And Shai and Juice have a similar number of carries, but I think it's becoming apparent that Shai has the slight edge. If you want to debate which of those two should get the majority of the carries, great. I honestly just want the primary back to have the opportunity to settle into the role, and start feeling the flow of the game and getting instinctive with finding the holes.
The sample size on JC is large, but has he had a decent line to run behind? That line that for 2 years put Logan in a position where he often had to tuck it in run or get sacked. Look, I'm not saying JC should play, but our lack of success in the running game is just as much a result of poor run blocking as it is on poor reads by our RBs and yet our RB coach is the one getting reamed by the fan base while our OL coach is sitting pretty. Whether the coach is new or not, they can still take part of the blame. I have no problem with people being upset with Shane. The problem I have is the tunnel vision that prevents others from seeing the whole picture. Yes, we've had more success when we give one RB the ball more, but no RB has started a game hot and forced the coach to play them more. When we have this much talent, a coach isn't going to play the same RB and hope that he gets hot as the game goes on. They are going to get someone else in there and see if they can open something up.
This topic is specifically about the RB coach, and where he may need to improve.
Problems with the O-line have not been ignored on TKP, and I don't think anyone on this thread yet has said it's all or even mostly Shane's fault. If that's the impression you got from me, I assure you, that is not my intent.
Obviously, as I stated before, a lot goes into the success or failure of a specific play.
On this thread, we're discussing the role of the RB coach in mitigating the ways a play may fail.
So apologies if I wasn't clear, but yes I agree: the OL bears its share of responsibility in our running game woes.
I realize that this is about RBs, but when talking about their success, or lack thereof, and the running game, everybody only focuses on Shane. I've rarely ever heard anyone say "Searels/Grimes need to get it together and get those linemen to block for our RBs." It's very pedantic to hear the same "Shane doesn't deserve his position because he sucks at it" rant from people (not you specifically, just many fans in general). The reason we on TKP even notice these things is because we have a wizard named French who tells us where the OL messes up. He's also able to tell us where the OL succeeds and the RB messes up. The only reason I brought up the OL is because of the argument that Shane shouldn't be RB coach because his RBs aren't successful. A successful play is due to the combination of 11 people being successful in doing their job and each of them has a coach that teaches them how to do so.
When JC is in the open field, and goes down so easily or he moves in the wrong direction, that has nothing to do with the O-line.
I like the kid, just not sure he can play at this level.
If anything I would rather have Rogers take that pitch play.. Imagine what he would have done with that perfect blocking!!!!!
*********MIND BLOWN************
I'm not even sure that's the case, as many times as not going down the stretch last year JCC had a similar amount of carries as Trey, Trey racked up a lot of carries early in the season when JCC was hurt... If you're saying he hit his stride late in the year that was when he was sharing carries
This is a great point in regards to good coaches not coaching their own positions, and growing to understand the game and its nuances as a whole, and i completely agree with that.
I do have a question, and this is purely a question from curiosity, so not baiting here for a long discussion, was he successful as the CBs, OLB, ST, SS, and USCe coach? I myself cannot answer that, and have not followed Shane's career enough to know.
Because just on the RB situation alone, I think he is average at best.
He still has a page on both Mississippi State and USCe's athletics pages:
http://www.hailstate.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=16800&ATCLID=931609
http://www.gamecocksonline.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/beamer_shane00.html
Here are some of the highlights from various position groups that he coached:
MSU CBs:
MSU RBs: Was only in the position one year, and no info on season on Mississippi State's webpage. Sports reference shows that his leading rusher that year was true freshman and future 6th round draft pick Anthony Dixon who over 12 games ran for 668 yards and 9 Touchdowns on 169 carries (averaged about 4 yards per carry, 14 carries a game, and 55 yards a game). The next two backs averaged 5 and 3.2 carries per game, so it looks like Dixon was getting a little over 60% of the rb touches.
USCe year 1-OLBs and Special Teams Co-Coordinator: Not a lot of info on how his OLBs or Special teams fared
USCe year 2-CBs:
USCe year 3&4-Spurs/strong safeties/special teams/recruiting coordinator: His first recruiting class was ranked #12 by Scout and Rivals. Also:
I strongly dislike this argument. Where you played may have some advantage, but that is probably maximized if you were a very good to great player (see Torrian Gray). But there are soooooo many examples of great coaches who focus on areas they did not play. Urban Meyer was a DB at Cinncy, that's the clearest national example. Locally, Jim Cavanaugh was a great Whips coach....he played QB at W&M and coached nearly every position in his career.
If you know the game, and Frank thinks that Shane does (and Shane's resume is representative of good experience), then you can coach multiple positions.
Shane was a long snapper. He played 4th string whip. He was on the KO coverage team. He was most definitely not a great player or even a good player. But that doesn't mean he can't be a great coach.
I don't know how it translates to football, but it's conventional wisdom in baseball that great players almost always make terrible managers, and great managers were almost always below-average players. The guys who had to work hard to learn their skills seem to be good at teaching those skills.
Matt Williams disagrees with you
So do Don Mattingly and Joe Torre.
It does, and it has at multiple levels of the game. We've seen it work with us numerous times in the past. (Suggs & Jones, Imoh & Humes, Evans & Williams) This has also worked in the NFL, where you've seen teams like the Panthers ride tandems (2003 - Davis & Foster, 2008 - Stewart & Williams, 2013 - Williams & Tolbert) to a first round bye in the playoffs (and nearly won them the Super Bowl in 2003).
Point taken, from you & Choppin.
But - I don't think the pros necessarily are a fair comparison.
Suggs & Jones, Evans & Williams both came about because the veteran had an injury, which allowed Jones & Williams to get into the groove of the game at Div 1 speed. When the veteran was healthy again, you had 2 experienced RB's ready to roll.
Plus: both were exceptional RB's out of High School -- and not taking anything away from Shai & Juice, but I think Jones & RW were on a whole different level. Jones had the speed to make any small hole a home-run, and RW had the jukes to do the same.
Shai and Juice may be better all-round backs -- but they don't quite have the natural escapability to turn solid plays into home-runs.
So between the difference in raw talent, and the difference in experience, I don't see how this current rotation can be expected to show quick improvement in either Shai or Juice.
And if that is the goal -- if throwing away earlier improvement for a primary back has been deemed ok in a rebuilding season where the goal is to come into next year with 3 experienced backs -- well I guess that argument could be made.
It's not though, and instead I'm hearing stuff that makes me worry Shane just isn't a fit to be RB coach.
Ehh, I kind of get what you're saying, but I am kind of looking at it another way (which I think I described yesterday, but I don't expect anyone to hunt it down, so I'll explain again).
There's one constant that runs among each and every one of those tandems. There's one bruiser (Suggs, Humes, Evans, Stephen Davis, Jonathan Stewart, Mike Tolbert) that came in and just pounded away at the defense all game and another back who has next level abilities who can burn the defense in space (Jones, Imoh, Williams, DeShaun Foster, DeAngelo Williams). Most of these teams would spend the majority of the game pounding away at the defense with their bruiser, slowly loosening up the middle of the field as the defense grew tired. And once those tackles became just a small bit weaker, and once the defense was just a step too slow on the snap, thats when the shifty back could be unleashed, and there was no stopping the attack.
I have zero problems with the concept of the RB rotation. It quickly breaks down a defense, with them getting tired as you keep rotating in a fresh but talented RB. We have a tandem right now (bruiser-Williams, shifty-Shai) that has every ability in the world to have a ton of success, but we're struggling, and I believe the struggles are 2-fold. First, our OL is struggling badly at run blocking. When we do run up the middle, there just aren't any holes to run through, and when there are, the OL hasn't been able to consistently shed that first block in order to pick up a LB to allow our RBs to break a decent run. Secondly (and I believe this is a product of the first one) we're not really pounding the rock up the middle. Most of our runs are seemingly off-tackle right now, and of course there are the 2-3 sweeps we run every game. With better OL play, we have all the pieces in place to have a very effective all around offense. Loeffler is drawing up some legitimately great passing plays where guys are getting open by design, and we are effectively moving the ball through the air better than we have since the 90s. We just need the OL to continue improving at the rate they are and we'll be good. It just won't be this year.
I agree with most of what you are saying, I really do.
My only quibble is that with 2 freshmen RB's, who don't have the game-changing skills of a Kevin Jones or Ryan Williams or David Wilson, reps are key for either of them to get into the rhythm of both the college game, and the specific rhythm of how there OL is doing against a specific D.
Yes, the OL has struggled up the middle. However, as French showed in his film review, there were some missed holes by the RBs.
I could be talking completely out my a$$ here, but I feel that any really good to great RB gets better as the game progresses (up to the point of exhaustion), and a big part of that is getting a feel for where his Oline is having success.
It'll come with time, no doubt.
But unfortunately, we don't have the veteran guy who is good enough to break the top 2 on the roster right now. Coleman, as much as it sucks, just isn't the guy to get it done for us, and Trey is still recovering from injury. I'm sure if there was a seasoned veteran who the coaching staff as a whole felt better about putting in the Top 2 rotation, he'd be there, but we just don't. The good part is that Williams & MacKenzie are getting invaluable experience right now that will pay off ten-fold in a year or so, but we're just going through growing pains now. Once it clicks for these guys (and it will, we saw glimpses of it against Ohio St) our running game is going to be STRONG. Combine that with what we've seen from the passing game, and we're going to have a complete offense to compliment a tough defense. Unfortunately, we're just going to have to be patient.
I'm not going to lie, I'm really liking what I see out of our offense this year. I can see how a year down the line when we have a first unit that has been running this for 2 to 3 years of experience with everyone on the same page, it's going to be a fun thing to be a part of. Right now, we're just struggling with an OL that is desperately trying to catch up to where it needs to be, and a bunch of young players who, while extremely talented, are still trying to learn what they have to do.
I'm not ready to give up on Shane as a RB coach. I personally think we have to allow the offense to gel as a whole before we can see if he's truly a weak link. Its too short sighted to make any kind of wholesale judgement at this point.
I miss Double Trouble.
In addition to what everyone else has answered about a 2 back system, when VT is going hurry-up it is an added benefit to have a couple backs split time, as the defense wears down the RBs are still going strong
^^^^ 100 % Also . Since he doesn't have to decide which back is situationally the best , Shane does not have to think or coach. Just rotate by series , give his boy a carry & a chance to score inside the 20 & everyone is happy. Has not been working.
I wish that Trey Edmunds had stayed on the defense right about now... It's great to see him on special teams. He can really bring the pain.
Between him, Newsome, and the two freshmen, I don't really see anything that JC could bring to the table. Can someone please ask Shane what he is talking about specifically when he says "Because theyre key members of this team and can do stuff for us", in regards to JC?
JC looks like he could be a Darren Sproles kinda guy. Maybe try to hit him in the passing game. The two freshmen are great but a faster RB might do us some good.
I dunno about that. Likening jc to sproles in any fashion is a stretch. He is simply not a good D1 rb.
Lol. Key word, "Could." Yea, doesn't seem to panning out very well for him.
I don't know...I've yet to see JC beat anyone to the edge and get around the corner for a lot of yardage.
"Looks like" and "coul" are the main points. But it does suck that his isn't playing up to that potential. For some reason I want to see some speed out of the RB's. Like Trey Edmunds best run at Alabama last year.
I don't wish for Trey to have stayed on defense. By the end of the year last year he was hitting a stride: improved vision and ran more decisively! I think his speed is underrated. As explained by French before (as far as I understand) when running with the QB handing the ball you got 11 defenders on 10 (unless wild turkey formation). There is always gonna be an unblocked defender. The RB has to win those one on ones. Unfortunately to this point I (from my novice observation) have not seen JC win any of those. Once healthy I think it's gonna be Trey, Shai and Marshawn or whoever is got a hot hand, or at least that's what I hope to see.
That question was answered somewhere recently (sorry I don't remember where). There are certain passing protections that JC knows from last year that the freshmen haven't had a chance to learn. Or something like that.
Gut Reaction: I hate this.
Will report back in the morning.
Series-by-series is not preferred. Why can't it be more situational? Remember when they would rotate Trey and JC and it would be JC's series 3rd and goal from the 2? That's dumb. Remember how they used Imoh and Humes in yardage situations that demanded their running styles? Not so dumb.
I could see using both in the same game, obviously, but it needs to be a little more thought out than "every other series".
Billy Hite was the RB coach then. He made two and three star RB's look like gold. We need some Trey and Joel Caleb. I think we could benefit from some tough speed guys. The two freshman are good, but dont have breakaway speed.
I more than believe Shai and Marshawn have earned the #1 and #2 spots. There's a reason we don't see much Caleb and Trey. For as much criticism as Shane warrants for some of his positions on back rotation, he's smart enough to at least figure out the depth chart most times.
He did have JC co #1 with Marshawn to start the year with Shai behind both of them. I personally feel like Shai should be the starter with Marshawn next. It could just be me, but it seems like Shai hits the hole quicker and has a little bit better vision and maybe a little more speed than Marshawn. Marshawn is definitely a good back who picks up those yards after contact and can wear a defense down over a whole game but I agree about using these guys situational and not just by series. I guess the only problem with that is if you only use certain guys in certain situations the defense might be able to better guess what is coming when certain guys are in.
i still contend that trey is the best RB on the roster. he really came on strong in the time leading up to his injury last year and he's looked good in the very limited time he's gotten this year.
great speed, too. i'm sure you all remember his gallop against alabama.
Indeed. I think working him in slow like they have is smart. I wouldn't be surprised to see heavy doses of Trey this Saturday to get him some more reps and confidence off the injury while some of the other guys go light before ACC play.
That's what I'd do on NCAA14 anyway.
Some video to go with that original post.
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/columns_and_blogs/blogs/andy_bitter_virgin...
I have less Confidence in Shane Beamer to ever make the Right decision on the RB rotation. IMHO , he is not a RB Coach and wants to play everyone. Daddy should have made him the Special Teams Coach , He couldn't screw it as much as the ole man has in the last four years.. Rant over with .
I think it's unnecessarily pejorative to imply Shane got and keeps his job because of "Daddy".
CFB has a lot of great traits, but I don't count loyalty to a struggling assistant coach as one of them. Stinespring and Newsome had far too long a rope in positions that didn't suit them.
Shane may or may not understand 90 percent of the skills required to be RB coach. I think our RBs are doing pretty darned well at blocking assignment and ball security (which improved after looking bad) under him. I said that I'm starting to lose confidence in him -- but that doesn't mean I don't think he can't improve.
What he's doesn't appear to be getting in my mind: That he is a coach first. And a coach sometimes has to disappoint a really great kid, in deference to a better player, or a better strategy.
But please, let's not stoop to insinuating that the only way Shane got and keeps his job is because his dad is the Head Coach.
History belies that pretty definitively.
When you say "rant over with"... does this include future "rants" of this nature?
Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes.
So what? People aren't allowed to rant and share unpopular opinions on this site?
No, they can. As long as they substantiate their opinions well.
Always find something to complain about.... some people....
It's not like one RB is head and shoulders above the others. It's not like we are even running the ball that much.
Shane doesn't need to stick with one RB. He hasn't been forced to do it because of performance. He is starting 2 true freshmen when fans even admit he loves himself some JCC.
I think he loves that "potential" that JC should be bringing.
In saying "every series" does he mean "every SERIES" or every drive. I can understand rotating Shai and Marshawn on every drive obviously subsituting when someone is tired or hurt or something. And as most people agree with, JC shouldn't be getting the ball in the backfield. If you want to put him in with another back and have him run a wheel route or a screen as a check down ok. But unless we are up by 4 TD's or something he doesn't need to be given the ball out of the backfield. Especially in the redzone. It should be Shai and Marshawn and then Trey as a third back. Lets see how many backs get carries this saturday and then wonder why our running game isn't gaining any traction.
Agree with TheVTAdrian about all the negativity; everyone loves a scapegoat, and Shane is an easy target. There have been lots of comments on the site since Saturday about how dumb it was to pull Shai out of the game while he was in the groove, yet no one has mentioned that this article explains why...for those that did not read it, Shai rolled an ankle before the missed third down conversion, then on another drive asked to come out after back to back runs.
And how about the other HUGE positive from this article, the leadership and maturity of Trey.
He is a true Hokie, and I am confident his brothers are cut from the same cloth. There is a lot of young talent on this team to go along with a lot of great personalities.
I agree, to an extent.
However, the stated goal is to put these players in the situation where they can have the most success.
I'm not sure I'm seeing that yet with our RB corps.
Better now than at the first of the year, but it's been baby steps.
When our OL can consistently keep guys out of the backfield and get push for our running plays, every one of them, yes even JC, can achieve success. I've yet to see that happen consistently. Some plays are good, but most aren't.
Well...Billy Hite had RB's running behind Newsome O-lines and things seemed to be fine. Key word, "seemed." But numbers don't really lie.
Every series is better than after every 1 or 2 plays. Baby steps....
What about the note that Chris Mangus is going to ECU... Happy for the kid, but not happy that he will be lining up against us when he's eligible.
Any chance of a film study on the running backs this season? I would love to see French break down some unsuccessful runs on short yardage plays, like that 3rd and 1 against GT that Williams failed to pick up.
I don't accept that whole RBs aren't getting into a rhythm argument. There are other teams that rotate backs more frequently then VT does and have success. It's purely a point of execution by the offense at this point. Looking at our own conference - NC State rotates 4 backs and they have had 3 straight games of rushing 200+ yds per game, something the school hasn't done since 1994. The difference between States offense this year compared to last year (with similar caliber of teams played) is better execution at the QB (10td/1int ratio), low turnover margin, execution of blocking scheme on the OL, lack of offensive penalties, and RBs getting N/S as quickly as possible.
Not saying State is a world beater, but it's amazing how much better an offense looks that is executing and is holding on to the football. I think VT is on the cusp, just need to cut down the mistakes drastically. They're killing themselves.
Not that I disagree with your point, but I do think if VT played NCSUs schedule so far, that VTs running game would look a lot better also
Georgia Southern
Old Dominion
South Florida
Presbyterian
Yeah, I wouldn't use NC State as the baseline for what an offense should do. Now, if they continue that pace this weekend against Florida State, then we'll talk.
My argument was based on their performance last year vs this year with 4 similar opponents and the fact that they were in a new offense last year. The difference in their performance between this year and last year are night and day for the reasons I stated above. State leads the ACC in total offense and ranks in the top half of the league in rushing yards per game. They weren't doing that last year against 4 similar opponents. And I would argue that every offense in the ACC should be averaging 200 yds passing and 200 yds rushing against that schedule.
Thornton ran for 173 yds last year against FSU, the key is going to be containing Eddie Goldman (DT, FSU) on the inside and limit his ability to distrupt inside run plays.
Your argument is a good one. I'm not sure we could rush for 200 yards against blocking dummies right now. The RB rotation is a red herring.
People busted on Dave Dorren for his dismal first year, but that guy knows offense, rushing offenses in particular. I'm still not sure what it is that Loeffler knows. His offensive identity is a mystery.
So you think we could give all our RB's on the roster the same amount of carries, and they'd all have similar stats?
NC State's stats imply a pretty dominating O-line over their competition thus far. I'd be surprised to see that sort of performance continue through the year.
Nobody is saying the rotation is the only factor here. It's a factor that is easily addressed though.
We've already addressed the RB rotation. The best two RB's are getting the vast majority of the carries. JCC is now left to play "exotic package" guy. That's not a RB issue, that's a "Loeffler has too many ideas" issue. To complain about JCC is to complain about Deon Newsome. They are the same player now. One-offs.
and they are working in Trey because there is a reasonable chance once he back to healthy, he's out best back. Our our 2nd best back (cough...less fumbles....cough).
Right now, our sample size on which is the better back between Williams and McKenzie is too small to draw any conclusions. the RB rotation is fine. We have a lot of other problems, I don't see that as one of them.
And it's a factor we were assured over the summer would be addressed before the season started. We will never know what would have happened if the coaching staff had decided after the spring game that Williams would get 60% of the carries and McKenzie would get 30% (or vice versa), with first-team practice reps distributed accordingly. I, for one, think the running game would be better. I can't say we would be 4-0 if that had happened, but you can't say we wouldn't be, either.
Agreed. We're talking about freshmen who haven't seen a college snap before W&M.
I'm in the camp that thinks more reps leads to improved execution.
I think it would have been pretty outlandish for the coaching staff to decide that McKenzie would be getting a certain percentage of the carries this year after the Spring Game, when he hadn't even gone through a full contact college practice yet. Even though he was the highest ranked of our freshmen backs, he was also coming off a very serious injury and many of us were expecting him to take a redshirt before fall camp started.