Well Well would you look at this. UF has decided to do it the proper way and suspend a player that is in the middle/beginning of a sexual assault investigation. Funny thing is he just helped UF come from behind and win vs Rocky Top and even though he would probably be the starter they are suspending him. Yeah it obviously isn't going to benefit them on the field but its the logical/proper way to handle the issue.
Hey FSU... this is how you handle a case.. not the way you did because you needed Jameis to win the natty. I bet if FSU had done it the proper way Jameis wouldn't be making the moronic decisions he has made this year.
I have posted a link with the story below... lets discuss!!!!!!!
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where?? I see no link regarding the story other than 3 tweets lol
Keep scrolling through the comments.
Ok, there it is... the esoteric headlines make this difficult...
Not trying to take up for FSU or Jamies but, these circumstances are completely different. One female came fourth a year later trying to ruin some young mans future with little to no credibility and no proof of any sort. (If I had been sexually assaulted I would have taken it as far as it needed to go at the time not a year later.) This young man did something this past Sunday. This young lady's story is much more likely to be authentic and actual forensic's used as evidence. Jamies may have gotten away with it but that's on the girl who didn't press the issue.
You might want to check some of your facts and perhaps reconsider this statement.
You mean kinda how that "female" (as you refer) in the FSU case came out right away and was more or less ignored by Tally police.
I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but by saying "female" in quotation marks you're making me think Jameis pulled a little Hank Baskett-style action with a tranny.
Hey hey hey, FSU is in Tallahassee not Thailand
She didn't press the issue. If she was truly sincere she would have done more than what she did "at the time".
So should the Tallahassee PD. Educate yourself:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-o...
I hope you never have a daughter that finds herself in a situation where she has to face someone that may have assaulted her that also happens to be a national sports "hero" and a seemingly indifferent police department. (not singling out FSU, its clear there is a huge problem with universities appropriately following up on sexual assault claims nationwide).
I can't speak for her sincerity, nor can I speak on anyones guilt or innocence, but your comments seem to me to be a hair insensitive at the least.
No... I do have a daughter and "IF" she finds herself in that situation it won't be him on trial for rape.
Second guessed myself in this thread.
Pull your head out of your ass and stop being an ignorant pig.
This chart totally changed my life, Bro!
That's a girl.
This blew my mind. Punch to the gut when you see the statistics presented like this. Thanks for redeeming the thread, EP.
Seems to be some dispute over that graphic. It's very dramatic, but looks like it counts things in a very biased manner.
http://www.cotwa.info/2013/01/the-enliven-projects-truth-about-false.htm...
Ok if one coed at Liberty had pressed ahead on a varsity athlete, things may have been much different for Graham and Harrington
I hate to think that way because I know the stress that these events cause is unimaginable, but I have definitely thought the same thing. Assuming all of the allegations against him are true, I hate to think of the turmoil and emotions that all of this press is causing his victims that have survived.
As someone who knows several people who have been in similar situations (not with a Heisman winning QB, but still) you have no flipping clue what you are talking about. You cannot imagine the stress that something like this puts a person through, you have no clue how damaging events like this are to someone in every possible way.
I really thought about roasting you on this, this comment was going to be about a page long and would quite possibly have gotten me banned from this website. Suffice to say that I hope I never meet you in person.
That's about as far from accurate as possible. There are many many reasons women do not come forward, and her situation is a classic example. She comes forward and is ignored. The FSU community rallys, not toward the woman, but to Winston because after all, there is a MNC on the line. but to say that her story is likely false because she didn't report immediately or that she didn't press the issue shows ignorance to this issue.
LOL. You think I don't have these opinions in person? Rest assured we would have this discussion face to face and I would still tell you that that chick should have something done when it happened. I just find it fishy that she waited until he started getting notoriety on TV to come fourth and really "press the issue". I think Jamies is an asshat and if he did it he deserves to be punished. But that girl would have a hard time getting me to believe she didn't "want" what happened to go down. Her underwear had DNA from multiple guys on it! Cant freak out every time a girl yells "rape" without 100% infallible proof that's what it was. Did she have proof? All she had was her word vs. his word and that's not enough to get somebody put in jail. Keep getting your news from ESPN and Fox News sheeple.
Forth not fourth...sorry that bothers me
Wait so if someone has sex with several guys (or gals) but one of them was against his/her will then it is not rape? Just because someone is promiscuous does not give others the right to abuse them, no even once means no even if someone else is "yes" a few minutes or hours later.
This is a scary post.
Oh and BTW, I don't give 2 shits what you guys think of me or my opinions. I try to see the world for what it really is, not what the media tries to paint us to be. The world is a cruel, dark, lonely place and if you go out and get drunk and whore around you will find yourself in bad situations. Believe me, I've woke up next to Sasquatch before.
If you had pictures and DNA from Sasquatch that would be worth lots of money to those monster/treasure hunters methinks...
OH!... and for a bit of history. I grew up with 3 sisters. When I was 11 and had no clue wtf was going on one of my older sisters friends forced her will upon me. Don't see me crying.
Probably just a made up story, if true you would've done more *at that time*... isn't that what you would have us believe?
I did, and everybody thought I was lying cause she was really pretty and 17. I accepted it. Don't see me crying. And it is most certainly not made up.
And how do you know she didn't try and report it and was told "oh sure, like you didn't want it, and you are just out to get something from a guy on a football team." You of all people should be able to empathize.
I tell you I was molested when I was 11 and you downvote me. LOL. What if I told you she was now a House representative for the state of VA? When things such as this happen you don't let it ruin your life. You accept it as an "event" and go on. Because I'm a boy I guess that makes things okay huh? hypocrite. Downvote that.
Stop trying to incite flame wars. You're clearly just trying to draw a reaction at this point.
OK, everyone...
This is a football site. A VT football site, actually, which means we are here to have a good time. This isn't some SEC site (inserting a bit of humor here now).
Let's take the fight outside, please.
And you guys accuse LOLUVA of being overbearing snobs. I read the rules and you aren't supposed to down vote for opinions that differ from yours. AND.. I was a child and she was an adult. Thats the difference on why I didn't "press the issue". Ignorance and stupidity are 2 different things.
And you'll notice I haven't down voted a single one of your posts arguing against me. You are allowed to have your opinions.
FWIW, I would tend to understand you on all of the these issues, but this is just not the place.
In all sincerity, I think you should seek some professional guidance of some kind to get justice and/or peace with these issues that are, rightly, causing you enough pain to cause you to vent about it.
You just won't get much here, or any other message board for that matter, that is going to resolve anything.
Coach is right on here. If all posts indicated above are true, your opinion, while may be harmful to some, may be justified considering the circumstances in your life. The downvotes are a reflection of people on how they themselves view the comment, not how they view the comment through your eyes. There are plenty of sources for self-reflection, unfortunately, none of us on this board are trained well enough to go through these issues.
I agree with what you say. At the same time I was a certified rape counselor for years, and everything I was taught, know and practiced says Road Dog is way beyond his means understanding what constitutes rape, assault and recovery. having been through assault doesn't justify a view of tolerance towards assault.
Sorry, justify isn't the right word. I should have said accounts.
Well... I was mostly just trying to promote the notion that this is not the place, and here I am being hypocritical by posting again, but I cannot help but notice that the guy has been down voted out of existence. This is sad to me, because I don't think all the piling on the guy was warranted. As I've aged, as I've bounced down the road, I try like hell to follow the "walk a mile in his shoes first" philosophy.
For the record, I didn't down vote once. And I don't know why, but I was compelled to look into it a bit...and using the few facts presented, I determined that his story, while not proven, still falls under the "not refutable" category. The math and people add up, anyway...
So, in short, I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt and cutting him some slack. And I feel badly for him all the way around.
Why don't you stop victim blaming, and then hypocritically going back and crying about how you are the real victim here when we call you out on your bs? "lol you guys are like loluva, heh"... Nice one.
You're right, don't downvote opinions. Unfortunately, that's not what's going on in this case.
Throughout this thread you've tried to bring in politics, you've tried to blame the victim in a rape case, you've belittled the opinions of others, and you're actively trying to bait this thread into a derailment instead of discussing the actual topic at hand, which is the suspension of the UF QB. There have been 31 comments to this thread (32 with my reply). 10 of those are from you trying to start an argument where one doesn't exist by trying to get up on a pedestal and talk down to everyone as if your opinion is the only one that's important and nobody else matters. That's not sharing an opinion, its just being an all around dick.
I jumped on the downleg bandwagon on this thread.
Yeah no joke....wow...
I have a feeling the banhammer may be making an appearance!
You know, maybe this isn't a good thing.
Guys, Road Dog has been having a rough time, which he explained about a week ago. Which you can find Here If you've Downlegged him, maybe its best to just give him the benefit of the doubt and reset the DL. He had a bad night, which has followed a particularly rough stretch for him where he has lost 2 of his close friends. Lets not kick him out of here because of it.
Alum07 = Good Human
Agree wholeheartedly Alum!
I should have read all the new posts before I jumped back in.
I don't disagree...entirely.
I reset one of my downvotes because it was just part of the deluge of downlegs I gave when I jumped on the downleg train, and that particular post didn't deserve it.
I looked over many of the rest of them. The rest stayed based on the comments.
Good on you, and everyone else that is reconsidering.
Obviously there is underlying stuff going on. I stayed out of the whole thing, as it was obviously snowballing on someone who is in a bad place.
Honestly, I think maybe this forum entry should be closed down, and someone can start a new thread on the topic to discuss the topic instead of this.
There is good conversation to be had on it, but I feel like this tangent has poisoned the well here.
I actually went back and found some older posts of his that were up-leggable (unlike those in this thread) and gave him some turkey legs so he wouldn't be in the negative. Dude shouldn't get banned because of one bad string of comments.
Completely agreed... Its really kind of sad to see the mob mentality to kick someone off for one bad night, when they've historically been a good poster. Yesterday I went back and legged almost 20 of his comments in the past to even it out, and even still he's back down into the negatives because people just enjoy piling on in here.
By my count he lost 201 legs (and counting) because of this thread alone. He didn't add anything on yesterday, and yet the downlegs grew exponentially. I get the fact this place likes to police itself, but at a certain point, you have to sit back and wonder if one bad night is legitimate enough reason to permanently ban someone from this site (which will happen when his count reaches -20).
I wholeheartedly disagree, his obvious underlying opinions about sexual assault negate anything positive he has posted about football.
But that's an opinion and nothing to do with football.
Therefore shouldn't be downlegged for an opinion and certainly shouldn't be banned from football posting due to a political opinion.
Adrian Peterson agrees.
My personal opinion is that there should be a max downvote limit. -10 gets you blurred, but you can't accumulate more than a -20 total score. This keeps someone from getting banned from a single comment, but the downvote should also be used responsibly. Someone shouldn't downvote unrelated posts in an attempt to get a poster banned.
Given that turkey legs can now only be added or removed based on votes rather than mass posting, this is probably an idea worth thinking about.
He was not downvote for saying," Frank Beamer is too old to coach", he was downvoted for repulsive comments about sexual assault.
I downvoted several of his posts on this thread (and this is before my -10 power, so they are all -1). Not all of them, but several. I'll tell you why.
Victim-blaming, refusal to acknowledge facts, condescension to other posters here, and claim of superiority are not welcome, in my mind. Road Dog needs some help, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt last week when he explained his situation about losing friends. I feel for the guy. I do. But venting on a VT message board about deeper personal issues is a bad practice for a guy that needs help. We rally around people who are in pain; we've demonstrated that. But when someone comes along and posts a string of knowingly inflammatory statements that contradict fact and dismiss anyone else's opinions or statements that their postings are hurtful is deserving of community rebuke.
I agree that piling on is bad. I was one of the first 3-4 downvotes for each of the posts that I hit, I believe. So anyone that comes along after and just says, "hey look, a blurred post - better get in on that action" is TKPing wrong. People have expressed disapproval. Let's move on. I'd rather see this thread buried or deleted. It has long outlasted being a useful discussion.
I agree with this. There was support for a downvote on some posts, but I think that a total score limit might be necessary so people from TKP can't all bandwagon and vote someone off the island as easily. I counted a total of 66 downvotes that occurred starting at this post (http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/194977#comment-194977) that were not as justifiable for a downvote. It was slightly flaming and definitely not the appropriate forum for them, but -66 was excessive. I suspect most were due to people getting tired of hearing what he was saying, but that's still not justification for -66 during that time.
I completely agree with HokieFireman. These are not opinions, political or otherwise. He is making an argument/debate and trying to support that argument with facts. The result of which are ignorant and offensive. I usually find the comments that get the most downvotes are the ones that cross the line and are not about football. These comments are in line with this as well.
I reread what Alum07 pointed out and I feel for anyone that goes through loss like that. I don't think he should be banned at all, but I do think the point of a self-moderating community is to make sure comments like these are left off the boards. That can't be done if the downvotes are changed to upvotes.
Then don't change to upvote. Reset your vote on ones that are borderline, which there are some that received several downvotes.
Still defeats the purpose IMO. He continued to stand by his comments and has yet to recant or apologize, so I am assuming he still stands by them. I didn't downvote every comment just the ones I found truly crossed the line. As I said, I don't think he should be banned but I like the clear message that these comments crossed the line and shouldn't be on TKP.
I spared the original comment, but did down leg the intentionally inflammatory comments.
This isn't even about football any more, it's just you being ignorant. I've made my mistakes of putting my foot in my mouth before (especially on this site), and I would just move on if I were you. Take the high road and quit forcing the matter. You probably won't, but just a tip. If your multiple stories are true, that is very unfortunate. However, not only were some of your opinions offensive towards both women and victims, but at this point you're the one being unreasonable. And I agree, I think you should get some professional help if your stories are true. No one should have to live through what you described, just like suspending the kid like UF did was the right action at the right time.
TKP community has always downvoted ignorance.
If you want anyone to take you seriously your first step would be to actually know what your talking about. Your facts about the Winston case are absurdly wrong. Feel free to read the links VTGuitarman provided for you. Your understanding of rape, it's victims and their recovery is also absurdly wrong. You being molested frankly seems to have damaged your understanding of what constitutes rape, assault and their victims more than it has enlightened you.
Above all, you are not stating opinions. You are claiming facts to support an argument. An opinion is: I think turkey legs are great. Claiming facts to support an argument is: Turkey legs are great because they taste like steak. One is a statement of feeling, the other is stupidity.
mmmmm a well seasoned filet of juicy, tender turkey leg
Afraid I have to disagree with this one, Turkey Legs are great but steak is far superior. If you do not think so then you are preparing it and cooking it wrong! ;)
Thats what I'm sayin!
A TL that tastes like a perfectly seasoned filet? That would be the greatest invention of all time.
BLASPHEMY!
I haven't seen the specifics on this case. I don't know if there is clear evidence in play. I'd presume nobody has those specifics outside of law-enforcement at this point.
Is anyone else just the least bit concerned about how punishment on allegations could be used as a weapon by a dishonest person?
Or how Universities have decided sexual assault will be prosecuted in-system based on a preponderance of evidence standard in school courts that severely limit ones options to make a defense, instead of the presumption of innocence standard requiring proving a crime beyond the shadow of a doubt?
I can't help but think this is going to end poorly for Universities.
It's not going to be long before powerful lawsuits start coming in from students later definitively cleared by a police investigation.
Yes. I touched on this in a Winston thread not too long ago. It's pretty scary stuff.
Its not just in the university systems where this is happening, but society-wide. People want justice before the legl system has a chance to play out. Its why we're seeing a mob mentality toward the NFL right now (with there being overwhelming thought that all 3, Peterson, Hardy, and Rice have all played their last snap in the league) and why you're seeing pressure being put on US Soccer to indefinitely suspend Hope Solo before her legal case can be brought forth.
All you really have to do to destroy a career right now is to accuse someone of something. Our "we need justice to be served NOW" culture is just frothing at the mouth to see someone hanged for an accusation.
According to CDC.gov:
That's frightening when you think about how many women are enrolled at VT. You have to take each complaint seriously until you can prove otherwise for the obvious reasons.
Also surprised at how low the reporting percentage is (according to Oneinfourusa.org):
Assuming this report is genuine, I'm glad she came forward and hope she gets the help she needs.
That reporting percentage is.......disturbing, to say the least. The whole bloody thing is disturbing. The fact that we live in a society where this still happens in those high numbers is frightening to be honest. Now imagine how high that number climbs if every incident is reported....yikes.
And I you're right, each case should be treated seriously. It sucks for those cases where the complaint is made up and someone goes through what has to be one hell of a bad time being investigated/prosecuted but I have to ask myself how many cases like that there are. And please, I'm not saying let's lock everyone who gets accused of rape immediately and throw away the key here; due process is a thing and everyone is entitled to it no matter how unsavory their actions, or accusations I suppose I should say, are.
TL;DR: Rape is bad, how do we fix this, society?
Harris, has been reinstated. No charges filed at this time, seems the female was the aggressor.
I find it hard to believe this was investigated in less than a week. Police work is not like an episode of Law and Order, it can take weeks or months just to get lab work and interviews done.
And that is a really scary proposition.
If it takes months to complete an investigation and make a determination to take a case to trial, you can effectively take away a player's complete season and derail a team, just by making an accusation. You can derail any student's college career, and jeopardize their entire future.
If you think there won't be any motivation to abuse a system that is predicated so far way from the presumption of innocence, well, I think you are in for a disappointing introduction to human nature.
That's the thing though krak_t, in my job (at a Forbes 50 company) if you're accused of breaking any law you are given zero benefit of the doubt or mercy. If you have to go to court as a witness or on jury duty, then that's excused. However, if you're accused of any wrong doing than that's your problem. If you have benefit time available, it can be used for time missed but only at management's discretion. So if you go to your boss and say you have court, you must show the summons and they decide whether you can even have the time off to begin with. If your sitting in a jail cell having been accused but not convicted then too bad. If you end up with a lengthy trial then too bad. There's been several people that I know of fired for this exact thing before any convictions were or weren't made.
Now say you were found innocent of whatever it was but you missed so much work you were terminated. Can you then go back and sue for wrongful firing for past wages or even your job back? Lol, not in the Commonwealth. That's the HR policy, you signed the paper on your first day. Something tells me football players both pro and college signed at least something acknowledging termination of contract or scholarship for conduct detrimental to the team.
I guess I don't see why football players should have any more rights or be given any more benefit of the doubt than I do if I found myself in a similar situation.
2 wrongs......
I don't exactly follow -- you seem to be claiming that we are treated with the same lack of due-process in nearly any other area of life.
That doesn't jibe with what actually happens.
Your average employer may write things like that into an employment contract, but we don't see people being dismissed from their jobs every time anyone is accused of breaking the law. The employer may take each instance on a case-by-case basis, and the decision to terminate can and does change depending on the circumstances.
It just doesn't happen with the sort of regularity that University codes are being re-written to enforce. Codes that demand immediate "termination" of all University activities based only on accusation.
And even in the example you assert, if there is a significant provable damage that can be argued in a suit , you can bet that suits will be brought, and will even be won on occasion.
At-will-employment grants plenty of latitude, but there are limits. Those limits may vary by state. You may be completely screwed in Va. That sucks if you are ever accused falsely of a sexual assault and fired. Even in that extreme, it does not excuse the practice.
http://yourbusiness.azcentral.com/examples-wrongful-termination-false-ac...
Except you see it often enough; ie Teachers getting suspended with pay for accusations of *insert crime here*, Officers of the law getting suspended with or without pay for various things while the incident is being investigated, politicians being forced to resign amid allegations.
There are a lot of things that you don't see because it's not someone big enough to really mean anything in the news.
I think you are helping me make my point.
Suspended with pay is not generally a real punishment. It's an administrative action most likely to avoid lawsuit.
The suspensions being mandated at the University level are real and tangible punishments.
But the 'with pay' part isn't always the case, nor is it a majority of the cases. More often than not, they get suspended without pay while the investigation is pending.
I'm not advocating for it, nor am I saying it's right. I'm just pointing out that what's happening with the colleges isn't just at the colleges. It happens everywhere. You generally sign a contract that says that if something comes up, you can be terminated. The "suspended with or without pay" is actually less than what they COULD do based on an allegation.
Again, this is my point.
They have the leeway to do less.
The University codes are being re-written so that they will not have any leeway. Punishment will always precede conviction.
I'm simply saying this is opening the door to all sorts of bad actors creating all sorts of problems.
If you though poisoning some old trees was a bad action by a fan, wait until player's careers are ruined by a few strategic accusations.
Game it out even further, and imagine the havoc that can be wreaked with the removal of "beyond the shadow of a doubt", and consider what can be done with just a little evidence. Or even a lot: If some people are willing to literally bed potential recruits to encourage them to join your team, it seems like a not terribly big step to bed opposing players to gather "evidence" of sexual assault.
Crazy fans are crazy.
I think that in the next few years, we are going to see a lot of bad unintended consequences as a result of these new punishment imperatives.
Sorry to nit-pick, but I've seen the phrase "shadow of a doubt" used a couple times the last few days. The legal standard in criminal cases is beyond a "reasonable doubt" not the "shadow of a doubt."
Quoting from a Wikipedia article, since it was the easiest place to find a mention of shadow of a doubt in reference to the legal burden of proof:
I guess what I was trying to convey, and sorry for the ranting, is that being punished outside of the legal system without conviction is a reality for a lot of people. I think it's relevant to the discussion.
I don't disagree, and I'm not offended in any way, so no need for an apology at all. It's a good and polite discussion, and I enjoy the opportunity to flesh out my reasoning.
What I'm trying to say is that I can easily see this backfiring horribly.
I think that lawsuits will be brought and won be players and regular students who are punished by a university, convicted under a University judicial panel with none of the defendant protections insured by our actual legal system, and later definitively cleared by that actual legal system.
How many millions of dollars can the U's bleed both in trial costs and in payouts before the system breaks down?
You say the kids can't sue because of the contracts they signed.
I say that contracts get terribly weak where actual damages are proven to have been caused by negligence or worse, by design.
The concussion lawsuits are just a recent example that gives weight to my POV.
and the shoe drops on Winston...
Documents: Police, FSU hampered Jameis Winston investigation
http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-florida-s...
It likely goes even deeper.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/us/florida-state-football-casts-shadow...
So shouldn't Jameis now be suspended or is he free to continue acting like a typical thug
Not at this time. He wasn't suspended for grand theft auto( motor scooter) and was convicted. He wasn't suspended for thousands of dollars of damage with a BB gun , not to mention rape accusation. This is FSU and you "can do that" if you are a star athlete. If he doesn't leave after the season is over , I expect he will be dismissed. His usefulness will be over.
The scooter arrest was a different FSU player.
True.
My mistake . Winston's pal in the bb & pellet gun incident Wilson was charged & convicted in the scooter theft. Wilson is a convicted felon but remains on FSU team .
No, he plead no contest to two misdemeanors as part of a deal to have the felony charge reduced. Not that the situation is any less slimy, but he's not a convicted felon.
Winston & Wilson both confessed to their actions in the scooter& BB gun incidents & paid restitution. Both were felony offenses. Just because Tally police ,FSU officials & coaches failed to properly investigate, cover up or reduce these charges does not make them less so. Wilson & Winston if not ( CONVICTED) are still thugs & felons in my eyes.