I think all of us here can say that we all appreciate everything CFB has done for this program. I was always on the side of lettting him stay throughout his contract or when he wanted to leave, but after last nights performance, I don't know if I can say the same. Once again, it didn't look like we were prepared for the game, took way too many penalties again, and had questionable play calling at best. Seemed like the only plays we ran were runs up the middle and WR screens.
The icing on the cake for me is when down 24-0 to start the second half, he still insisted to establish the run. I honestly dont know why we don't run the hurry up offense and spread the field all game long. That is when we have moved the ball effectively and actually look like a team that beat tOSU. I don't know, I am just so frustrated, confused, and depressed after seeing a performance like last night. I'm sure you can all relate where we put in so much time and passion into this football team. Thoughts?
Comments
My biggest fear is that Coach Beamer is just trying to hold on long enough to get "little beamer" enough seasoning so he takes over. After how poorly he has done with just the running backs I am not convinced this is a good idea. But what do I know, I am just a football fan who loves a good game between any two teams and it is a bonus if the my teams are winning. Also since I have been a Raiders fan for 35 years I am used to being way up and way, way down... I am sure French and/or Joe will have some quality breakdown of the film that will prove us wrong. ;)
I always thought that drill with the boxing glove was pretty dumb. Maybe last night's fumbles prove that. The videos I've seen of that drill are not convincing at all. I mean how about a contact drill, where a mob of defenders are trying to rip the ball away while the RB tries to push the pile. I'm not impressed with Shane. Our return game has been atrocious since he took that over as well. Newsome finally busted one loose last night. That'll keep Shane in charge of that a bit longer.
I love CFB. I trust he will do the right thing. I don't think Shane will ever be head coach. In Bud I trust!
You saw what we all saw an ESPN All-Access. So you think that's the only fumble prevention drill they do? Come On Man!
I agree with you that Bud deserves to be the next VT head coach.
since Shane took over the RB position I've never once been impressed. we've have some of the lowest rushing yards ever with him in charge of rbs. he's a good recruiter but clearly can't actually coach. i can't imagine whit would let Shane take over one day considering how bad of a job he's done at coaching the rbs
How many coaches are we going to keep around for recruiting? Little Beamer is a joke. I watched Sam Rogers break tackles and make a great run jump up and give the signal to feed him the ball. What did little Beamer do. Take Sam out of the game!! Sam looked flabbergasted by the decision he was shacking his head all the way to the sideline. It may be time to pay the Beamers thanks for what they (CFB) has done for our program and show them the door. And this is not me ranting over last night. I have been saying this for several years!!
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If we expect to have a winning team we are going to have to change something and the only constant in this equation of losing is CFB!
I agree in regards to Shane and Rogers. I remember thinking the same thing. Rogers was the one guy that without a doubt was playing hard and playing inspired. Love that guy!
I also flipped out in the 1st half when wright made a decent 4yd run on 1st down and then got pulled. rotating players like that drives me crazy I'm sure the players can't stand it either cause they can't get in a groove
CFB is a constant for losing now? We are truly a generation of unappreciative brats. The jury is still out on Shane, but I see no proof that he is the problem. Players coming in and out of the game are package choices. Why is it so hard to believe as a fan that we just aren't that talented right now?
Amen! We've had unprecedented success under Beamer, now we have a few down years and everyone wants his head! The man has earned the right to retire whenever he wants and on whatever terms he wants (barring of course some MAJOR issue like the PSU debacle, which I believe won't happen). This team has talent, but we're extremely young at key positions, and we've had some inconsistent coaching in key areas, remember this is the third O-Line coach we've had in 3 years, that makes a difference. We are not only age young, but experience young. Is everyone on here still going to be calling for his head if this team wins 10 + games next year? Or will he suddenly be a genius again?
I respect your opinion, but I completely and utterly disagree with this sentiment.
There is too much of a financial investment from too many parties involved to allow the football program to continue to devolve and degrade at the rate we're seeing before something has to be done to correct it. Quite literally our entire Athletic Department runs off the money the football team makes. If the football team stops making that money, because the team stops being good, and the fans stop coming to games and buying all those concessions and paying for all those parking passes, and merchandise sales start falling off, the entire athletic department will suffer. And with our financial state right now, we do not have the endowments to be able to get by when the revenue streams start to wither up. And as I stated below, this doesn't even touch on all the outside influences that will put pressure on Whit to change it up if we continue to flounder. We already are trying to put pressure on the ACC to allow us later games because the string of nooners is financially negatively impacting the economy of downtown Blacksburg. And thats with us still selling out games. Those issues will only compound if ticket sales start withering. And this doesn't account for the pressure that the ACC itself will put on Whit to improve the program because other athletic departments rely on the influx of Hokie fans (read: Duke) to sell out inflated price tickets to their home games, to earn extra revenue every year. If we stop mattering, the revenue for the whole conference will fall, and that's bad for the ACC.
So yeah, I like the storybook ending that Frank is allowed to ride off into the sunset one day, but that doesn't make sense in a financial world. If we keep playing like we do, he will be forced out in the coming seasons. Financially, we simply cannot afford to continue down this path and stay healthy as an functioning Athletic Dept.
You bring up some interesting points, but I honestly don't think that Frank is going anywhere he doesn't want to any time soon. He will not be forced out in the next couple of years mainly because the team will be better next year, and likely better than that the next year. We are young and bringing in good recruits. We had a few down recruiting years coupled with players leaving early (Williams, Evans, Wilson, Hosely) and we're suffering now because of that. But we have a lot of young talent on the team, we have a new OC who is finally able to start implementing his offensive plan (now being hampered by injuries), and we have a huge upside. Next year we lose very little, the biggest losses being Jarrett and Bonner (which will hurt), so we bring back most of the team. They will have a year of experience under their belt, this year most are learning on the fly. I'm looking forward to the next couple of years.
However, lets follow your doomsday scenario for a second and say that we don't improve. Yes, there will be pressure from the fan base (especially on the internet where everyone can be anonymous), and there may be some pressure from the AD, but if there is it will be behind closed doors and it will be very respectful, because without Frank, the Athletic Department would not be what it is. You don't bite the hand that's feeding you. But I think that you assertion that the ACC needs Tech to be good is a joke. Remember we only got into the ACC because the governor of Virginia pressured UVA to force the ACC to take us. They didn't want us and they don't like us being in their conference. Look at most any ACC ad run during a football game and you'll be hard pressed to see more than a fleeting image of a Tech player while Miami and FSU players dominate the ads. Even though since expansion we have more conference wins than anyone else and more championships than FSU and Miami combined. But even with this "pressure" I think CFB will go when he wants to. I may not have this right but I think that he's said that as long as he has a QB, a kicker, and is having fun that he will continue to coach. I say let the man.
I agree with some of your points but do you really want our stadium to look like UVA's (half empty). This is a business and in any business money talks. If we think we can continue to put a bad product on the field and the fans to buy it? We are dreaming. I have been a VT fan for +- 30 years and I will not spend my time or money to be miserable. I can watch the misery in my living room and not have a 3.5 hour drive home cursing the wasted time/money spent to get to VT. I am a huge fan of CFB and wish him nothing but the best. But if you can no longer do your job it is time to move on. I hear all the excuses about poor recruiting, young players, and injuries ( which happen at all schools). CFB is the CEO of VT football and all football operations good or bad is his responsibility. He hired the coaches and let them recruit the players on the team and to blame anyone else for there short comings is ridiculous. I do not want to see what CFB built dissolve d/t ego and not knowing when to ride off into the sun set as you say. VT is hanging on by a thread right now and if we drop any further out of relevance I'm worried we will not be able to find a suitable replacement for CFB (there may not be one). Just my thoughts/fears so take them for what they are worth....very little....LOL!
I disagree when it comes to Beamer having the "right" to retire. You think a person/CEO/founder that builds a business to a level that never has been achieved but then their decisions in the ladder half of their career start to hinder the business as a whole, you think they have the right to step down whenever they want? No, they will be let go. Same should apply for football. At the end of the day, VT football program is a business first, trying to field a product that sells. If you have a product that your customers don't like, customers/fans will not pay to see games. Changes need to be made, period.
I agree that Frank is showing his age and inability to adapt to modern college football, along with the unfounded loyalty to mediocre/bad assistants (respect the loyalty but c'mon). However...
I hesitate to rush towards the "Fire FB!" crowd because I see a lot of Tennessee fans who thought a couple of 5-6 loss years under Phil Fulmer were the end of the world. Now theyve spend the better part of a decade trying to get back to that point . Not every coach in waiting is Jimbo Fisher, and don't forget that our football team was nothing before Beamer came along
The problem is that far too many people stand rigid in their belief that because Frank built the program into a success, somehow no other coach can ever equal his level of success. There will have to be a change made some day, some time.
If Frank coached another decade then retired, then what? The same thought process that no other coach can ever equal him would mean the program would collapse. So... the extremely uninformed defeatist thought that only Frank Beamer of all coaches past, present, & future could be successful at VT is pretty silly.
To me, folks that fear change more than they anticipate success just don't make sense. Also, I'm on record many times that I think Frank will step down after the 2016 season.
If Frank wasn't doing anything like replacing the offensive staff, asking for more recruiting personnel, making significant facility improvements and making changes to the way recruiting is done from a basic level (position based recruiting vs geographical), I might give your point of view some credence but, he is doing that.
I'm not sure what additional evidence you need to see that he's making changes and that those changes look like they would be in the correct direction.
I don't find any evidence to back your repeated assertion that Frank is not making adjustments and modernizing his program.
Agreed, I think many Hokie fans giving CFB a pass based on the past. You think a CEO/founder/etc. of a company that has lead his company to a lot of success but then his decisions in the ladder half of his career hinder the company's success, you think they are going to keep him or give him a "pass"? Hell no, they would fire his ass.
Example.... Mens Warehouse founder. BOD's did not like the direction the company was going, they did not see it as a successful path, so they canned his ass. Happens everywhere. VT or any football program is no different.
They must not have loved the way they looked.
...I'll see myself out.
I lol'ed, turkey leg for you good sir
Once again, Frank is making changes to move the program in the right direction. So unless you all want to fire him based soley on a past mistake (allowing his staff to muff recruiting) which he has already corrected, then I don't see what your logic is that he can't keep up anymore. He just overhauled his offensive coaching staff and has pressed for recruiting assistants to be brought in on the staff, and they're currently building an awesome indoor practice facility. What more do you want him to do? Recruiting takes time but they are bringing in quality recruits that should make an immediate impact.
I don't remember having very high expectations of this year's team before the season started. But like most of you I'm sure, after they went up to the Horse Shoe and beat Ohio State I jumped the gun and started to believe this team had far exceeded my expectations. Well now, they're exactly who I thought they would and should be before the season started. A team thats full of young talent, and still pretty thin at key positions. Does that sound like a 9 or 10 win team to anyone who follows college football? I'm not saying any of you are wrong for wanting a coaching change, but I refuse to let this year's production be a justification for that. Give the dude and his new staff some time. And a half a season isnt time. I also refuse to use Newsome, and O'Cainspring (again, something he's fixed) as justification to fire a legendary, future HoF coach that bilt this program from the ground up, and who is still showing that he can change with the times and take care of business.
And please, can y'all stop using Bobby Bowden or Joe Paterno as a backdrop when you run out of viable facts or reasons to fire Frank Beamer. Because it's not the same situation, not even a little bit. I'll reference my previous statment that Frank is still making moves, he's still recruiting, and he's still improving. Not just resting on his previous success the way that Bowden did at the end. And Paterno was a senile old man that didn't handle a scandel involving a member of his staff well AT ALL. For the record, I'm not one of those fans that thinks that the program is doomed once Frank is no longer the head wistle, but it's also not a sure thing that the next guy, whoever it may be will even be remotely as successful as Frank Beamer has been in Blacksburg. So we might be wise to consider all that before we show up on the man's front lawn with torches and pitch forks trying to run him out of the town he helped build.
But look at the ACC records and compare the two..that's stats, thats $$ the school is losing due to mediocrity. I don't know how you can't look at the records and say mhm I can see a resemblance maybe its the beamer glasses some people have on but recent #'s talk and they say a whole lot about the program
Bowden
2007 Florida State OVR (76) CONF(44) 3rd (Atlantic)L Music City
2008 Florida State OVR 9-4 CONF 5-3 T1st BC went to ACCCG (Atlantic)
2009 Florida State OVR 7-6 CONF 4-4 3rd (Atlantic)W Gator
2010- Fired
Beamer
2012 Virginia Tech OVR 7-6 CONF 4-4 4th (Coastal)W Russell Athletic
2013 Virginia Tech OVR 8-5 CONF 5-3 T2nd (Coastal)L Sun
2014 Virginia Tech OVR 4-4 CONF 1-4(Coastal)
2015- ????????
Not saying Beamer should be gone 100% but #'s for 3 years speak for themselves..
Yeah, the past 3 years do speak for themselves, somewhat. But my point is he made these coaching hires at the end of 2012. Since then, they've had a different QB, the same o Line recruits from the Newsome era starting (for the most part) and 2 offensive line coaches. He also has a record number of freshmen starting this year. There's no way you can say that's enough time, or a recipe for any HC to turn a program around. You have to give it time. And I can't speak for the AD, but a small minority abiet vocal minority, probably isn't going to make Whit Babcock rush into what could potentially be a bad decision. And as much as some drunk guy ranting on twitter who claims to know something wants to make people believe, an argument between coaches, and a scuffle or two inside a locker room full of football players isn't grounds to fire a man of Frank Beamer's stature and certainly doesn't mean that he has lost the locker room.
Point taken.. leg for the posts!
Beamer made the decision for a whole new coaching staff but it could have been done 2-3 years earlier, we all have a feeling Beamer is stubborn and that obviously hurt us. Beamer can be held accountable for the lack of OL recruiting as well, its not just the coaches that got fired fault. Its a collective effort and this years staff is doing a much better job!
I had a feeling Grimes was using us as a stepping stool, was a great hire but just had a weird feeling and SEC came calling and he picked up and left. So yeah we got screwed there.
What Whit has to deal/think about is... what's going on with Boosters/$$ are we really losing people/recruits or is it a perception that we lost people ect ect. If we are losing $$/Big Boosters does Whit say lets hold one 1 more year and hope for the best? Or does Whit have a coach in his back pocket and make a BIG hire now, keep Beamer involved and we start to Re-Build but already have a decent block to start from due to all the freshman/new players and coaches?
What happens when we have another 1-4 start in conference, our OOC schedule is getting harder and harder come 15' and 16'... 2 mediocre seasons certainly could hurt VT for awhile and that is a scary thought.
Thank God I'm not Whit.
I'm sorry, but I can't stand it when people say that. Sure, we ended up losing out on a good coach. But he took an opportunity because it worked for him. A story came out shortly after his hire that his sister has cancer, and the move to LSU puts him significantly closer to her home in Texas. The desire to be closer to family, especially in the case of long-term illness, coupled with better pay and a chance to be a part of a top-tier team - who would blame him?
not blaming him, its just the way the game is now.. especially when your team is looking for a offensive identity.
SEC has $$ and SEC has better recruits and his family issue makes sense... just sucked for us with the timing, hopefully Searels is here to stay.
Agreed! I would NOT want his job right now. But that's why ole Whit get's paid all that $. Sometimes guys in those positions have to make tough calls. And we would be foolish to think that he hasn't already had a few conversations with Frank asking what his plan is for a way ahead. And I'm sure he is taking all factors into consideration. One point of concearn I have is recruits. Like it or not, a lot of recruits come to VT to play for a coaching legend like Coach Beamer. That's been well documented. If Frank steps down, there is a potential for a good chunk of those kids to also leave. Just something to think about before we make our minds up that the path to improvement is paved with firing our HC. He isn't Derrick Dooley haha.
yeah beamer is a huge pull with recruits but he isn't leaving for good if he steps down/retires.. His new contract has him being moved into assistant AD to Whit so I'm sure that will be a football related position/recruiting type like KJ.. Also beamer would hopefully be more involved with multiple sports on campus which is a win-win for VT .
Don't remember recruits saying they came to a program because of the AD or other floating position.
Nick Saban did win a National Championship in his 3rd year at Alabama. He went 7-6 his first year, 12-2 his second and then 14-0 with a Championship in year 3, so it is possible.
Virginia Tech isn't Alabama. Not even close. If Frank Beamer was at Alabama, he'd have a hand full of championship rings too. Comparing Alabama to Virginia Tech is actually quite laughable.
Incorrect analogy. I'm definitely not a Saban fan but if all it took was simply being the coach of Alabama to win championships then Shula would never had been ran out of town. just sayin...
Not even close. Bryant won his last NC in 1979 and Saban won his first in 2009. In the 30 years in between there was only one other NC won
Saban also won a NC at LSU, the first in 45 years
There are resources available to Alabama coaches that simply will not be available to VT coaches. Maybe ever. So yes, it takes a special coach, and insane talent, and nothing short of a ridiculous amount of luck (seriously, who would bank on the Mountain blocking a field goal to beat a mediocre Tennessee team in '09?) to even get to the NCG. But even on top of all that, and even to get a lot of that talent, it takes money for facilities, travel, recruiting personnel, etc. Beamer has done a great job with what he's been given and, along with Whit, is restructuring the program to again try to get the most out of what VT can offer.
Interestingly, the trivia questions that CBS and ESPN pulled out during the Alabama/LSU and OSU/MichSt games were both answered with Nick Saban.
CBS said that LSU hadn't beaten Alabama either at home or in Tuscaloosa (I forget which) from 1971-1999. Who was the coach that broke that streak?
ESPN asked who was the last Michigan State coach to have a winning record against OSU.
Saban is both.
Bowden was on a longer decline from a higher pinnacle.
From 1987 to 2000, every season had a top 5 finish, and the worst seasons during that time had only 2 losses.
From 2001 to 2008, the best season was 10-3, only cracking the top 10 in the coaches poll.
great facts!!! I like it. Leg+
But then doesn't your point show that bowden should have gotten the boot sooner?
Eh, I don't know enough about FSU football.
But I do know that fans of football in Florida are really fickle. After all, hasn't Miami fired every coach in the last 15 years because they weren't winning the national title every year?
Miami hasn't even won the Coastal since they joined this conference, a feat that Duke has already accomplished in that same time frame, while also watching schools like Wake and BC make it nearly 1/3 of the time over the first decade of this new era conference.
Coming from a school that had just won a national championship 3 years before joining this conference with a roster some still call arguably the most talented collegiate roster ever assembled, I can't really blame them too much for being more than a little frustrated with how the bottom fell out.
delete double post
moving my reply to the post that stayed...
Just because you make changes doesnt mean you are going in the right direction. Bad hires/decisions happen.
How can you look at the changes in recruiting, the new facilities, and the current young talent being developed and say that the changes arent for the better? Because this season isn't going as well as some thought it would?
I never said all changes/decisions were bad. Recruiting has improved but the indoor facility was approved the AD as a whole not Beamer, which some people like to give him sole accoutability for that for some reason. Don't get me wrong its going to be awesome, and improve recruiting for sure, but like I said, I never said all the changes/decisions weren't were for the better.
And that kind of fits right into my point that just because VT hires a new head football coach, doesn't mean the program will excell either. Then what? Fire him? Then what? Tennessee, that's what. Except Tennessee has a bigger brand than Virginia Tech and plays in the SEC. Did they hit a homerun with their current coaching staff? I wouldn't consider Butch Jones an elite coach by any stretch of the imagination. I know some like to get excited because they beat South Carolina and barely lost to UGA. I think we can all agree that South Carolina is awful and UGA might have just saved Will Muschamp's job until the end of the year at least. All I'm saying is, the grass isn't always greener and instant success and gratification doesn't usually exist in the real world. So we might want to approach with caution. All I'm saying.
Oh I hear ya, totally agree with that you are saying, but at the same time people think keeping the status quo with Beamer will also improve things, I for one, disagree, but again thats just me. I just dont think Beamer is up to speed with the ever changing world of college football now or ever will be imho
+1. Would give you another 1k or so if I could.
Hiring SB was simply nepotism at its finest. It happens way too often in positions that matter in this country, which doesn't justify hiring someone that's not qualified, but it happens.
It has been noted a lot here that Whit is a business man and from the decisions we've seen it appears he's very in touch with what the fan base wants, something I do not think Weaver was capable of seeing or maybe even cared to consider. Before I get flamed for saying something about Weaver without mountains of evidence, that's just my opinion.
I'm sure Whit understands that there is a large segment of Hokie nation calling for FB's head. That's not going to happen. That said, I'm sure he's also keenly aware that the majority of knowledgable and honest VT fans do not want SB to become the next head coach.
I can't say it was entirely nepotism, but I am sure that it played a part. Shane had built a reputation as a solid recruiter and having Marcus Lattimore at SCar helped give him some RB coach credentials at and P-5 school. At the time the Hokie faithful were really upset about the losses on the recruiting trail and pointed to the age of the staff as a barrier between younger recruits.Shane filled a lot of the holes at the time, young coach with recruiting success under his belt, P-5 exp and success, coach's kid and former VT player.
The RB talent has not been to the level of the Billy Hite days, but I think McKenzie and Williams have the potential to get us back to the dominant run game days. I just don't know if its having true freshman at the position, the coaching, or the OL coaching changes and piss poor recruiting at that position that is responsible for the stagnant run game.
I agree, and would give you a leg if I had them to give.
I now have enough, so Leg to you, Sir!
The biggest issue Ive had with Shane is we have seen him coach the positions he had for his entire career up until now. At MissSt and SCAR under Spurrier he was a Secondary and LB's coach. Obviously Torrian has the one doing as well as we can hope and his record speaks to itself. But if he does decide to pull a Gus Malzhan and get out of town for a year before coming in as an eventual DC, Id like to at least see how Shane can do at his obviously preferred positions before completely writing him off.
As far as the offensive breakdown, I don't think there will be much. The playcalls were not the correct ones and you can't break that down on film.
Hokies' football program is in decline. They have been losing the recruiting battle to several other ACC teams for the past several years now. Frank Beamer put them on the map but it's time for him to step aside and let someone with more energy and creativity take over the program; someone younger with more appeal to youthful potential recruits. Look at Florida State. When elder Bowden finally stepped aside and Jimbo took over, the program was revived. Unfortunately, VA Tech recently committed to a new 5 year extension of Beamer's contract. I have a lot of respect for Frank Beamer and he has run a clean program and is an honorable man but I think it's time for him to go.
Welcome t your first half day at TKP.
I think the recruiting is doing well since the offensive staff take over and I don't see a lack of creativity out of Frank so, I think it's time for him to leave quite yet.
As Clint Eastwood told Gene Hackman in 'Tombstone' - 'Deserve's got nothing to do with it'
This is something of a pointless question. Two primary reasons. First, Whit will handle ALL discussions behind double locked closed doors with Frank, and we'll never know what is really said. Whic, is really as it should be.
Secondly, Whit justly respects Frank enough to give him a fair amount of leeway. Meaning, even if we lose the rest of the games and finish 4-8, Whit will make a public statement saying that he knows Frank has the skill to right the ship and that Whit has faith in Beamer doing so, thus he will be back for 2015. If we went 4-8 again in 2015, Whit would probably tell Frank behind those double locked closed doors that Frank had earned the right to 'announce his retirement one year in advance' and have his farewell tour. Thus Frank would coach out the 2016 as his final season.
That is the shortest term scenario realistically possible. So, for all those who want to see Frank gone now, or after 2015, it will not happen. Whit will not 'let Frank decide when to retire', but he will not kick Frank to the curb, either. He respects Beamer too much for that. And... Frank has earned that, even if you hate his offense.
The "farewell tour" doesn't work quite as well in college sports because of recruiting; unless you have a coach in waiting.
Also, call me crazy but I'm not quite over Beamer at the helm; and something tells me Whit leans more on the pragmatic and dutiful side than nostalgic.
You are probably right, but I don't think this program has the clout to survive the scenario you have described.
I think Whit is a business man and when the product stops selling and the future looks bleak. Whit will make a change! At least I hope Whit will not allow our program to get in a hole we cannot get out of. I think Whit should start putting out flyers and if a better option presents its self cut the cord and see where it takes us. It looks like we are going down anyway we might as well go down swinging.
Whit said early on in his tenure that he always, always has a 'wish list' of replacements for every single coach that works for him. Also, that the list evolves as the months & years pass.
Whit also understands that balancing the sentiment of the donors with the sentiments of the internet fans requires varying bits of cold business analysis and emotional connection that create the sports fan mindset.
There is absolutely no chance that Frank Beamer is not the head coach in 2016, unless he decides to step down. The only reason Frank would step down was if he had a life threatening illness. He's not giving up before then, and Whit's not taking him out before then. For all the obvious reasons in both cases.
Exactly, and Loeffler's not going anywhere either. Frank Beamer took a decade to replace Bryan Stienspring, he's not going to change OCs again with theoretically two years left in his coaching career.
Well, under Bryan we had a ridiculous streak of 10+ wins. It wasn't until we had our worse season in more than a decade in 2012 that he was replaced. This time it's different, we've gone 8-5 and now we're 4-4, both of which are terrible numbers that didn't happen under Bryan. No matter how bad Bryan was, he still got things done, Loefller is drowning under a barrage of screen passes and terrible decisions that are completely drowning out our offense and chance to win.
I'm sorry, I can't agree with giving Stinespring a whole heck of a lot of credit for the success of those offenses. The production of his offenses basically lived and died with the existence of absurdly talented QBs who could create something out of nothing. When he had those, his offenses were productive (as anyone's would be), when he didn't, it was a disaster.
Basically, Bryan Stinespring should thank Tyrod Taylor every day for extending his OC career for about 4 years longer than it should have gone. Also Bud Foster for routinely putting up top 5-10 defenses every year.
Also, we went 7-6 in Stiney's last year, and 8-5 in 2003.
He got things done because we had the players who made things happen. Look at the number of upperclassmen contributing now on the O side - not many, yeah? Stinespring had some big part in that.
True, and I detailed elsewhere why Frank would have a hard time finding a decent OC even if he did go against his entire past history & fire Loeffler. Nobody wants to work for the old coach who is going to retire any year now. Especially nobody wants to work for that same coach when he has decades of track record proving that he is committed to the offensive philosophy of killing the play clock and run first even when you're losing 24-0 in the fourth quarter. That's the absolutely best way to kill an OC's career. So why would anyone in their right mind want to come to VT to replace Loeffler?
That will insult some of the apologists, but it is the rational truth. Frank's not firing anybody unless Whit forces him to do so - same as it was under Weaver. On top of that, no OC would want to come here under those shackles. So those things will not change.
Not saying that it's realistic, but money talks. We could probably get the guy we want if we throw enough money at him.
Frank makes the decision about who to hire. So how could anyone possibly think Frank wold hire somebody that didn't agree to mirror Frank's decades old offensive philosophy. Not to mention - pretending we will 'throw money at' some one to hire them shouldn't even be part of the discussion. The offense is going to be what Frank wants. Which is what we have now. Pretending some promising OC would want to come here and kill his resume while we all wait for Frank to retire any month now just is not realistic.
The current lack of offensive depth and talent is just as significant a barrier as Beamer's impending retirement and offensive preferences. All I'm saying is that the number of promising OCs who would come to Virginia Tech for the right money is greater than zero, which is not an outrageous assertment to make.
They won't come to run an offense that the overwhelming majority of college football has moved beyond, and do so with an obsessive focus on killing the play clock - which translates to fewer plays per game, and less offensive numbers. They're not going to do that for one or two years before having to move on elsewhere. It's just self destructive. The only OC we would get is someone who is a castoff unwanted by other teams. Making the money attractive does not erase the fact no OC wants a couple of seasons of being ranked 90th in the nation when he then has to go find another job.
In terms of plays per game, the actual numbers disagree. From teamrankings.com, which has stats from 2003 onward (formatting kind of sucks, sorry):
Season PPG Rank
2003 63.5 116
2004 69.2 89
2005 70.7 67
2006 62.6 98
2007 71.1 91
2008 70.1 45
2009 65.4 98
2010 67.4 77
2011 72.2 53
2012 75.2 43
2013 74.1 58
2014 77.3 41
So while our overall production is certainly bad, it's not because we're running too few plays per game. In our best years in the last decade, we were generally in the lower half or even lower third of FBS teams. Since 2011, we're considerably higher, even top third in terms of number of plays. We certainly need to be doing more with those plays (TDs instead of FGs, fewer turnovers, better 3rd down conversion %, etc), but aside from some head-scratching sequences of running a bit too much time off the clock lately, we're running more plays than we have before, generally.
I didn't have the stats on hand to do it as well as you did but..."I was gonna say that!"
So, instead I give you a leg.
Since we have reverted to the clock killing strategy that has been overt the past two games, we have run far fewer than we did previously this season. Even with our uptempo play in the third quarter of this game, we've averaged 60 plays per game the last two games.
It would be nice to have the additional 15 plays a game or so that we've wasted by running the clock well below ten seconds in a misguided effort to control the play clock.
"It looks like we are going down anyway we might as well go down swinging."
It's funny you said that, becuase that's exactly what I said last night. I wasnt sick to my stomach becuase we lost that game, I was sick because of how we lost it. Didn't even try to shake things up til the last few minutes of the 4th qtr. It really did look like they just tucked their tails and took their whipping. You can't go out like that at home on a Thursday night, in front of a packed house with the whole country watching. You just can't. I don't know the QB situation, don't pretend like I do. But I do know that you have to do something drastic when you're getting pounded the way they were last night. You have to show some kind of fight. Besides, what did they have to lose?
And you woulda thought Bobby Bowden had earned that too..... He won two rings and was kicked to the curb.
Wrong. Bobby was dragged kicking & screaming from his throne. The AD had an arrangement that supposedly preserved Bobby's ego, but when the end came, Bobby decided he wanted more years, just because he was Bobby. It is totally wrong to say he was kicked to the curb, because he created the agony of the situation, thanks to his own inflated ego.
The same goes for JoePa. Same story, only difference is minor details. Both had tons of fans screaming that they should be able to coach as long as they want and determine their own end date. Why? Same argument - Because he IS the football program! We would be nothing without him, and we'll be nothing when he's gone!
That was the argument screeched by the 'faithful' util the day both men were gone.
The attendance at the WMU game of 'Sold tickets' of 59,625 wasn't very good for CFB. If it happens again, especially against an ACC team I'd say change may come fast. I'll be interested to see the numbers for BC.
Move on to next year, after a (HOPEFUL 6 - 6) and no crazy low attendence. OSU is a Sell out, new year big time game. No other sellouts for the year. Closer
How's the win/loss record? Pendulum moves closer
ACC Champions? No? Closer
2016 is probably correct. But ticket sales and half empty stadiums at halftime also don't help
Just to be fair, thanks to the ACC's reconfiguration of the schedule, we have a dog of a home lineup next year.
Outside of Ohio State, we have Furman, three NC schools, and Pitt. There's no ACC game on that schedule that I want to circle on the calendar. Thank god we have Ohio State as our marquee game.
So it might be difficult to use attendance as a clear indicator.
Forgive me for being picky, but that wasn't Tombstone it was Unforgiven. Tombstone was the story of Wyatt Earp and starred Kurt Russell. But that was a great line.
Coach Beamer is not the reason the team lost last night. Miami played well after their bye-week. The Hokies fumbled the ball three times in the second half , thats 21 points off the board. The team has so many injuries on both sides of the ball. Even the best NFL coach in history wouldnt overcome those issues. Id say give Beamer a break!
What makes you think our offense would have scored a TD on all 3 of those possessions? I'll give you 7 of those points but to say that's 21 points off the board is ignoring how much they sucked on the field last night.
Without the fumbles, the offense came out fired up after the half.
Weren't each of the fumbles inside the Miami end and 2 were inside the 20? One was at the 3.
The run game worked coming out of the half. Gravity got bad.
The point is the offense should have started the game fired up!!! I blame the coaches for not having the team ready to play the last two weeks.
Oh please. I'm sorry but I think we would have scored a single TD, at most. The second fumble occurred on our first play, so to assume we score on that drive is just insane. The third fumble just indicates that our offense would have scored just once.
I think we would have gotten 14 points that qtr without the fumbles. Then the 4th would have been entirely different.
Please stop playing the "what if" game. Why do we always have to wait until after halftime to come out fired up? Why are we settling for mediocrity? Who cares where the fumbles took place. This is not a good team, and to fool yourselves into thinking otherwise is just irresponsible.
We caught OSU on a bad night, and we have been riding that victory as a justification for our poor performance. Until there are some major changes (i'm not necessarily saying Frank needs to step down, just coaching changes in general), we will continue to squander quality talent and settle for C level bowl games.
I choose to try and see some positive in this as a learning moment. See another thread I commented on. You certainly don't know my entire mindset from my comment above, but you think you do. Really? Wow!
Really? There's no need for this kind of trollbaiting.
Lots of threads today with plenty of opportunities to be snarky. Let's all resist. Please. This is certainly not the worst of it, but it's a good example to point out. Smitty has made a lot of very good points in a few posts and I've upvoted a few, so let's focus on things like that - critique and analysis. No one in this community should turn on each other.
Everyone is having a bad day after an ugly loss, but we all bleed the same colors around here.
You all are correct. Sorry. I'll remove that sentence. The rest of the post stands.
My biggest issue is that in your hypothetical, you give us 2TDs. I would argue that the statistics from this year support the notion that it would have been closer to 6, or realistically because we would have gone for it being down by so much, even 0.
We are having a really, really tough time getting the ball into the endzone, assuming we would do it twice feels...generous.
Major coaching changes happened. Less than 2 years ago. People need to accept that there are no magical fixes and that things aren't going to be all sunshine and butterflies after someone gets fired. Lefty & co. stepped into one of the worst situations possible: a fan base that expects consistent dominance and essentially no real tools to be set up for success. Canning everyone and starting over again won't make the process happen any faster.
If you believe that the players are simply so poor, that this is the highest level of performance we should expect from them, then who are you holding responsible for getting us to this point?
If you then believe it's CFB, then why do you feel confident he knows how to turn it around? Or better yet, why do you feel confident he has the awareness to know that things aren't as bad or worse than they were previously when he didn't want to make changes?
I'd honest like to know because I'd like to feel optimistic about this offensive staff as well.
Back before the 2012 season when things started to go bad, someone in business with Frank's restaurant asked Frank what he thought of his team. His reply? "Ive got 5 good players. The rest are just like me and you."
Frank's awareness and judgement is still there.
I think that is a bad attitude to have. Look at schools that get new coaches and are winning or at least shows improvement week to week. This team is not showing any improvement and is digressing. It is the coaches responsibility to make game plans around the talent they have and not try to force feed your ideas on players not capable of running it for physical or mental reasons!! UL, Washington, and a depleted USC team have new coaches coaching another coaches recruits and they are improving!! Whats our excuse? Needs more time to get his players, needs time for them to mature, or the coach is not responsible for the players not executing on the field. I call BS! They get paid a lot of money to have the kids ready to execute on the field and if they cannot have them ready/do their job. It's time to find a replacement. I know my boss would not let me hang around if I wasn't getting the job done. Would yours??
Couldn't agree more about relating this to any business out there
Sorry for wanting to win.
Yeah, no kidding. Because the VT Hokie fan base is the ONLY one in the nation that wants a program to reach the pinnacle of success, or even just within eyesight of it. The strawman arguments posted to excuse this performance just amaze me. The fear of change far outweighs the fear of mediocrity for some...
Well, it'd be one thing if he went to UVA, where people are just kinda "meh" about the program. So he's got all kinds of expectations on him and no reasonable way to get the job done in year 2. Give it time, people.
Unreasonable expectations being... a top 80 offense? That isn't 122nd in the country in turnovers? 114th in penalties per game? And 96th in penalty yards per game?
Because I'm not even sure that would be considered unreasonable in the Sun Belt.
It's steadily gotten worse though. I think that's the issue. The dicipline is very bad and so is the preparedness of the offense. They've come out very flat 3 weeks in a row now. Even if we had an offense like Baylor's we couldn't afford to take the 1st half off and expect to win. And by constantly going 3 and out the whole first half, the defense is dead by the 2nd half. Then people want to jump on them for giving up big plays. I'm in pretty good shape and I can't sprint up and down a football field for 24 mnutes straight, don't know many guys that can.
Yea, you most of missed it. Auburn fired him for 2 wins. It was 2 more than they wanted. Now he's taking it out on us.
You know Auburn just doesn't like to win, the NC game against FSU Proves it and the NC trophy is on Loan. Some kind of museum thing about greatest ever
4-4. Injuries everywhere. Promising youth everywhere. Quitters on this blog, too many of you. Real fans understand that you are not always on top of the mountain, sometimes the ride up and down makes the top so much more enjoyable. Step back from the ledge.
Spare us the "real fan" and "true Hokie" bullshit. That kind of mindset of "I'm a better fan than you" will quickly erode the quality of conversation in here as it did to TSL. If you are still around after last night you aren't a quitter and you are one hell of a fan. In fact, I'd say the ones who are complaining are great fans because they care enough to not accept this kind of play and want to see changes made to improve how we are.
EDIT: Huh... so thats what happens when you combine a comment score of >10 with 10 or more downlegs... the green overrides the blur.... Never saw that before
Hmm, I think you added a few words I didn't say but my only real intention was to say there will be ups and downs in any program. Of course, we all are disappointed but need to understand there are going to be times in any program when there are down times. With that, I am not here to argue with anybody.
I inserted the "true Hokie" part because that is the natural progression of "real fan", as has been shown multiple times throughout the years on sites other than TKP. The whole concept that someone is a better fan than someone else by some arbitrary standard set by the person claiming "real fan" status is bunk. Its something that deserved to be harshly criticized once it shows its ugly face, because it very quickly can turn a good community (TKP) into one that devolves into a community of 'us vs them' and 'I'm a better fan than you because....' bickering (TSL).
I do not want to see TKP become TSL. I do apologize if it came off as overreacting to you personally, that was not my intention. I just loathe that kind of mindset that was touched upon.
We are good. I never try to take any remark on a personal level who disagrees with me and I have apologized for the quitter remark.
This sub-thread is a precise example of why TKP is amazing, especially during a second rough week in a row. Legs for all.
The concept of a "real fan" is a false notion to make people feel like they deserve something more than others and that they are smarter/better than others. Something I saw on Twitter last night talked about some fans being described as "lifers" and that they were somehow better than people that became fans of the team when they got their acceptance letter. Things like that are the biggest load of crap I've ever read. Here's reality, we're all Hokie fans. We all have opinions and they are all different. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong. Nobody is more of a Hokie fan because of any specific opinion. They can be pessimistic, optimistic, homer, cynical, or any other kind of person, but they are still a Hokie fan.
You and I don't seem to agree on a lot on here, but we agree on this 100%.
Well maybe...
'Quitters on this blog, too many of you. Real fans understand that you are not always on top of the mountain'
As has been mentioned above - I really really find little more irritating than someone confusing blind allegiance with being a 'real fan' or a 'True Hokie' or whatever other condescending phrase one cares to insert to declare some sort of moral superiority over fans that question the status quo when the status quo results in poor performance.
Spare us the pious nature of such statements, as they completely ignore the reality of the situation. I won't downvote you, but those statements deserve such. They are nothing if not divisive and incendiary in nature.
I'm no quitter....just pissed off at the current state of the program that I love. Things look bleak at the moment, but of course, I am still hurting from last nights awful game.
I will be back cheering hard when we play Boston College next week.
We have a right to be upset...that comes with being a passionate fan.
Amen ProudHokie.
I don't buy that. Beamer is the head coach and it all starts and ends with him. I know that the fumbles hurt, but with our offense and Beamer's conservative mind set...do we get 21 points? We'd kick some FGs.
The team came out in the first half and was flat out not ready to play. That is on the coaching staff. How are you so flat at home on a Thursday night?
He's not the reason the team lost, but he has to take responsibility for it. His players, his coaches, his team. He can't be absolved of all responsibility.
Also, the second half fumbles affected the outcome, but it's overlooking the fact the team was 24-0 at the half.
Besides the fact that you run the best site on the internet, you're a very wise man. It brings me great pleasure to say, I generally agree with just about all of your positions. Thumbs up!
I feel your frustration. The coaches have some work to do. A certain amount of this can be attributed to injuries and youth, but certainly, a lot of this, if not most of it, falls on the coaches. That being said, CFB stuck with the O'CaineSpring offense for as long as he did because we were winning 10 games a season and quite a few conference championships. One 7-6 season, he made changes. I choose to give him credit for that. The coaching this season has been disappointing, but IMO, CFB is still the man I want at the helm. I trust that he can right the ship.
Your "icing on the cake" moment is bizarre. That team last night wasn't capable of spreading anything out. That first possession was arguably the best the offense has looked all season running the ball. Marshawn marched us right down there, and at that moment most of Hokie Nation had hope that we could get back in the game with a quick score. Unfortunately the freshman tried to push the pile a bit too much (love the effort), but he let the Miami defenders get up under his pads, he was standing straight up and was vulnerable in that position. That fumble, along with the next two, never should have happened. Marshawn will be a better player for it. I have no problem with running the ball those first couple of possessions where we had good field position, and just needed to do whatever possible to get back in the game. After the three fumbles, when every other play was a WR screen, well that was really tough to watch.
The bottom line is that against anOSU all the chips fell in our direction, and against Miami, all the chips fell in Miami's direction. Hokie Nation is just used to rooting for a team that dictates which way the chips fall as opposed to leaving it up to chance.
I held out hope as long as I could, but the realist in me knew that we were doomed when that hold was called on Stanford in the first half, just as our offense was building some momentum and getting in rhythm. Put us in 1st and 20, we abandoned the run the rest of the half.
I agree with you on most but I will say the first possesion started on Miami's 45, so it was even a long field to march down. Marshawn has fumbled in the past games this season and heard the "oh he'll learn from it" but apparently he hasn't, so im not buying that yet. And in regards to spreading it out, that run game benefitted from the spread/hurry up offense. But it did seem all that could go wrong, went wrong.
Surprise surprise, another post discussing Beamer stepping down.
Now might be the time to start talking about converting Logan Thomas to Tight end....
Maybe Brewer to TE? :-)
Look, Squirrel!
Just so everyone knows, I have not down voted anyone who did not agree with anything I said. I also have thoughtfully regretted calling any fan a quitter for being upset with losses.
Yes, let's base all of our thoughts on the program on one game. That's the way to go.
And for the record, establishing the run darn near worked. If we don't fumble 3 times in opponent territory, we may have even had a football game on our hands.
While I agree with your sentiment regarding this one game and Beamer's employment, we haven't beaten a Power 5 Conference team at home in a literal year.
But we beat OSU in Columbus!
/sarc
"Darn near" aint the same as actually working. Truth is we fumbled and got embarrassed on national television....again. You always come on here and try to be the voice of reason, well I'm sick of it. Maybe if more people questioned this team and its coaches then we would actually have a decent product. And that "one game" you speak of is actually 4 (and that's just counting this season).
Bad losses to ECU, GT, Pitt and the U have pushed this fan base to the edge. Please spare me the Beamer talk about how "we have done things well and just haven't got the breaks". We caught OSU on a night when they were very much off their game. We have been using that win as justification for a terrible season. Changes need to be made, and for you to deflect blame and attack someone by claiming they are jumping the gun is ridiculous.
If you disagree, you disagree. That's fine. Do not be condescending towards other people's viewpoints. I'm usually a voice of reason too, is that bad? Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of what happened.
You're sick of the voice of reason? Yeah, sounds like a good chunk of the fan base. Excuse me for not jumping on the "fire everybody" bandwagon when things aren't going well. Ask Stanford (in the mid-2000's), Texas or Michigan how that's going, just off the top of my head.
You only cite one-sided examples. You could just as easily provide evidence for the other side and say, "ask Alabama (in the mid-2000's), Auburn, Notre Dame, Florida State, Duke, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, USC, Kansas State, Arizona, Nebraska, Clemson, and UCLA." All of those teams changed coaching staffs and improved steadily, if not dramatically.
The coaches have the rest of the season to get it together, but if we continue on this trajectory and miss a bowl game, while playing in the worst division of all Power 5 conferences, is it really inconceivable to question whether it's time to pull the trigger on coaching changes?
Being in Austin and working with multiple Texas alumni, I'd say they would agree with the hire and glad Mack is gone. They understand it's a rebuilding process and it takes time, but at least they know they aren't stuck with Mack (past his prime).
Bro, those ECU, GT, and Pitt losses all came by one score. 28-21, 27-24, 21-16. You change just a little something in that offense, a couple of penalties that go our way instead of against us, or even a couple of healthier players, and we're looking at a 7-1 season. Changes do need to be made, but they need to be made BY the offensive and defensive coordinators and head coach. Really, what's firing anyone going to do?
scores can be very misleading. in two of those games, the score does not represent how badly we got beat and how deeply the problems were starting to spread. quoting scores to cover up the stank or to feel better about things is just rationalization and excuses. we are bad. accept it, or not.
We play zone defense during ECU and GT, when they're clearly airing the ball out, we win. We sustain drives during Pitt, we win. Simple as that. In my opinion, you just win, it doesn't matter how it looks. I know, that frame of mind would eventually wear out when we actually lose, and then you have to start fixing the things that don't work. But if a few things just were to break our way (listed in the earlier post), we'd be having a much different discussion about this loss.
i guess i believe that we weren't as close to those games as you think. which is fine. we got whacked by Pitt, ECU and Miami. we are bad and saying we were a few breaks here and there from winning the game isn't really indicative of how the games actually went.
our past few games have been some of the worst football i've ever seen. not just VT football. all football. we are a hot mess and last night was borderline laughing stock status. a few breaks won't change that.
Here we go with the 'We were only 2 or 3 plays away from winning the game...' denial of what we all actually watched. I don't think anyone needs to get fired, but let's not pretend we're oh so close to a great season. We are MILES away from a great season.
With all due respect...its not one game. It the collective body of work for the season.
ECU, GT, Pitt....Miami.
The natives are growing restless...
Lets take it one game at a time and pray we can regroup in time to beat UVA.
And last season.... and the season before that!
In my opinion this program is Frank Beamer. And because of that, I still think he can step down whenever he wants. Great man, hall of fame coach, and no matter what happens on the field we can all still be proud of this program.
I agree on the lack of preparedness, and it is something that has been on the increase for probably the past decade. I don't pretend to know why - maybe it is Beamer slowing down as he gets older, missing the little things happening in practice...But he should be able to lean on his assistants for that and that is what is most frustrating to me.
However, even if he is slowing down, I do think he knows plenty about the game of football. To say that he was insisting on establish the run in the second half...it was the only time we gained any yardage all night (other than Leal versus the second teamers). If we came out running because of Frank, I believe that has more to do with Frank knowing this team and knowing how to get results...we knifed down the field on the first two drives and had a great start to the third. The fumbles speak to the execution thing and what happens in practice, but going to the run there seemed to be about the only thing that could have saved us.
I'm with you on the frustration...at this point I don't know whether to be hopeful or accepting. I want to believe it will get better, but maybe this is the reality of VT football right now. I certainly don't know how to fix it, and I have seen enough of other former powerhouses fall (see Michigan) to be scared of a post Beamer world as well. For now, for his record, for who he is on and off the field, and regardless of the record of this team, I support him.
I touched on this in the 'offensive philosophy' thread, but I think it also deserves mention in here.
What happened in that Western Michigan game? I'm asking because our offense from the second half of that game through last night is completely different than the offense we ran in the games leading up to it. Before halftime of that game, we had an offense that could move the ball at will on defenses through the air. We continuously took shots down the field, and we had plays drawn up to get guys open, and it was working. When we needed a short yardage gain, we had a play drawn up to get one of our receivers open, and we would pick up the first down, and it was working. We leaned on the natural mismatches we had at TE to give ourselves an advantage over the course of the game. Yes, we struggled with turnovers from a QB that was struggling to execute, but what we were doing was working.
Now? We are a clone of the offense that got Stinespring demoted and O'Cain fired. We are a run heavy offense that focuses on churning clock and dominating the TOP. When we do pass, the majority of plays are WR screens thrown behind the LOS, which allows for the defense to react before we get into positive yards. We didn't even throw to Bucky in the end zone despite the opportunities until we were already down 30-0 late in the 4th quarter. If I didn't know that Loeffler was the OC, I would not be surprised to have learned this was game tape from 2012.
What the heck happened?
We've seen two completely different offensive identities this year, and the major turning point was that Western Michigan game when Shane supposedly got up in Loeffler's face mandating we run the ball for the rest of that game. All I know is that after all that talk about utilizing the TEs and using the talented WRs and being this great QB coach that can help players develop into stars, we've completely taken the downfield passing game out of our playbook. This is not the Loeffler game planning that we were promised, and that we were treated to seeing early this season. Something changed in that WMU game, and I really don't like the way this situation appears from the outside.
Brewer hasn't been right since the ECU game. Maybe halftime of the WMU game is when the coaches finally accepted that he wasn't going to be able to perform the way he did against OSU. He's clearly injured and tentative. He was consistently rocked in every game during the first part of this year and came in with a known back problem. What you're seeing is the culmination of all that coupled with the fact that Newsome couldn't recruit, let alone develop, offensive linemen. No passing game + no running game = no offense.
My question is: if Brewer is playing this poorly and the coaches are leaving him in, how bad are the backups?
This. Honestly, when you think deeply about it--like, "grab a good whiskey and sit on your back porch and contemplate" deeply--The damage Newsome did to VT Football is kind of amazing, really. He set us back so far and the repercussions of his (lack of) work have had truly astonishing negative effects on all areas of this football team from quarterback injuries and mental health to defensive outcomes/style, poor offensive showings, to pretty much any other area of the game. And anyone who is now wishing to return to Stinespring for OC is SERIOUSLY undervaluing the ability of the following guys to absolutely cover his inability to call/design an offense: Tyrod Taylor, David Wilson, Ryan Williams, Danny Coale, Jarret Boykin, Darren Evans, Logan Thomas, etc. It has been said before--considering we have had Foster and some rather solid defenses during those days--that if we had Grimes or someone similar and solid linemen with an average offensive coordinator, we don't just win ten games a season or two during those 10+ years but very likely get closer or even play in a national championship.
man, THIS times a million.
We simply are not the same team fundamentally or philosophically as what played Western Mich and OSU. Everything that made us believe has been stripped down and reverted to everything that is now making us doubt. For me simply, it's the fact that we played like we had nothing to lose then and play like we have everything to lose now. And I think the fact that we really had no idea what would happen this year allowed Beamer to let go at the start of the season, and once we reached such an achievement of beating OSU he pulled off the gas and hid in our turtle shell of the offense we used to have.
I love Beamer. Love him. I have repeatedly stated my loyalty to the man and everything he's done for the program, but after this game I have zero doubt (unsubstantiated of course) in my mind that Beamer has dragged this offense back to the kind of offense he feels most comfortable. I mean, hell, we were running no huddle and setting tempo at the start of the season. A willingness to throw downfield for the score all over the field... now we have fucking screen passes and run, run, run into opposing lineman. We know this offense. It got everyone but Stinespring fired.
So I simply cannot believe that this is Loeffler's offense. What we started the season with. I believe that is it or at least the closest it has been. There is no way you would ditch that for this if you are an OC. It just doesn't compute. Unless you are being forced to. I remember last years ESPN all-access and there was a discussion of the interaction between Beamer and Moorehead. At the time it seemed like Moorehead was a bit aloof to Beamer and resistant to "hear" him. Was it Beamer being meddlesome or Moorehead being rude? We conjectured it was neither, but I believe it the closest "evidence" to the former.
And so with a heavy heart, I am leaning towards the thought that Beamer being in the twilight of his career and therefore not seeing what is wrong because he is too close to it. Namely pulling a Bowden.
Regarding Beamer continuing, I don't believe Whit makes any move this year. It would be quite embarrassing after having just given the man an extension, however I don't see Beamer being asked to continue on if we don't improve over the last games and next season. It would be a cruel injustice for Beamer not to coach in the Battle at Bristol, but one I sadly see could happen.
My remedies:
1) Beamer needs to let go and stop meddling like Bowden (Again my unsubstantiated opinion). Let Loeffler and Brewer go uptempo and spread across the field. It was working.
2) Loeffler needs to eliminate all "cute" plays. Go back to first 3 games. the plays that worked, keep them and build from those.
3) Let players relax. Sam Rogers is talking about "dark times", well you know what those are over. We have zero chance at going to ACCCG. time to go out and play some ball for the love of it. nothing to lose.
4) Finally, Bud's defense has 1 critical flaw. Mobile QBs (or RBs lined up as QBs). There is a crack in the armor and every OC in the nation knows it. It's now been 4 years in a row where I have seen this topic discussed, and opposing team's exploit it. If our system hasn't closed that hole in that time then somethings got to change in our system. Too many big plays made by a single player on the opposing team.
I am sure Whit and Beamer will meet and discuss where we go from here. If I am Whit the first thing I say is that Bowden's exit is not the legacy Beamer deserves, and that depends entirely on Beamer recognizing that he is doing it.
Bravo. This is the line I needed to hear. And I think it's high time to realize that this will be Beamer's offense until he trusts an OC to run the O like the DC runs the D. And we haven't hit that point. It might not exist.
Everything in Frank's history indicates he will never allow that to happen. He views the offense, like his mentor Jerry Claiborne, as merely a function of the game that assists the defense. Key objectives in Frank's offensive philosophy, over his last three decades of results?
Use the offense to kill the play clock & dominate time of possession. As a result, the defense can be much more aggressive and have more time to rest & recover.
Use special teams play & aggressive defense to create a short field for the offense.
Always, always maintain a conservative run based approach to offense. This weaves back into Point #1.
Frank did become enamored of mobile QBs after Michael Vick was dropped upon us. He recognized that their mobility could hide the weakness of the run based offense he loves so much.
Any hope that Frank will shift away from this philosophy he has held for three decades now seems to be without foundation. Expecting him to abandon all that in the extreme twilight of his career? Umm... okay...
My only regret for this comment is that I have but one leg to give for it.
Great comment, and I agree with every single bullet point (which makes sense cause you started it with "man, THIS times a million." as a reply to my post).... You put it so much better than I did or could have done.
I gotta say, I disagree. I don't see Frank being a meddlesome coach at all - he waits until the last possible chance to intervene and then prob trusts his staff more than he should...example being the "need to simplify" speech that came after whatever big loss or near loss before going on run to keep ACC championship/10 win streak/bowl streak alive. My bet is that the run the ball mantra did come from Frank, and it turned a close game against WMU into a blowout, set the tone for UNC, and generated the only few minutes of competence (if you cover your eyes when they fumbled) you saw last night. How many times did you see three runs into the line last night? I remember one where we went for 5, 4, and -2 yards right at the start and then it was time to pass the ball until halftime. When we came back out running the offense moved, and because football is a weird game we kept giving it back...after that 3rd fumble it was too late for anybody to save it. The screens I think are all Lefty...we ran them continually against W&M, ECU, although not OSU, but that is his offense. And what I saw last night was mostly the same route concepts we saw all this year and all last year. The difference is the QB not pushing the ball downfield, not the direction the receivers are running. Brewer has gotton more and more hesitant, and his arm strength seems to have gotten worse as well. I dont know if he is being gun shy, been told to throw it that way, is hurt, or what, but the offense is stagnant for the same reason it was last year...we cant execute well enough to dink and dunk our way down the field. And that to me is Lefty's offense. Stiney was never a dink and dunk guy, and while Beamer may be the common denominator I dont see the evidence that it is meddling that put us in this mess
That 10 win streak existed mainly because the rest of the ACC was crap during that time. If we had quality programs that had their act together during that time period, there's no way that streak really gets going. We were top dog in a bad conference. If we are in any other conference from 2004-2010, we're probably looking at a long string of 8 win seasons.
Worse than now (at least the Coastal)? The teams from '04 - '10 would steam roll this division and give FSU a run for their money in the ACCCG.
The ACC hasn't really changed, we've just regressed to the mean.
Normally, I agree with you. But I don't think it is true in this case. Again as I mentioned, and you mentioned, there is no evidence to support that. It's just the feeling that I get. I am not saying that reigning Lefty in and running the ball more wasn't the right call, but it seems it went from that correct call to a wholesale change to how we run our offense. And I don't believe that's a change Loeffler made. yes we need to run the ball, but that shouldn't mean we let go of an offensive style that was working, uptempo gun slinging, completely.
If our offense wasn't based on the screen pass during the Stinespring era, I would be inclined to believe you that this is Loeffler's tactics. But I think the prevalence of screen passes in every game is a holdover from Beamer not Loeffler. I could be wrong there. It would be interesting to see how Loeffler used the screen, and how many times, while at Auburn and Temple. I know for a fact though that VT has been enamored with screen pass well before Loeffler.
I think Brewer had his wings clipped. Again, probably the correct call given all the INTs he was slinging, but no matter he is playing hurt or not I think he was told in no uncertain terms that he needed to eliminate the turnovers.
Loeffler uses too many screens...Stiney used too many screens...Stiney is still in the booth with Loeffler.
There's something there, I know it. Screenpassitis is more contagious than Ebola.
I'd tell a joke about Ebola but it's really hard to get....
After the Pitt game I posted that I thought I had Ebola because after watching that game I was bleeding from my eyeballs.
I could recycle the same joke for this Miami game, too, but it all seemed more like a dream sequence where I was in suspended animation, unable to stop watching, while continuing to view the horror.
Maybe it was like the scene in 'Casino' where Joe Pesci & his brother are taken out into the cornfield, and they make Pesci watch while they beat his brother to death with a baseball bat. Then they bury them both alive.
Nah. It was just disappointing. That is the saddest part of it all. It's not like we never expected this. We just hoped it wouldn't happen. It did, and that's the saddest part of it all. Next week, we beat BC, and it won't make this loss any less disappointing. Looking back on the Oh State game, it doesn't mean much now. It will probably be the victory that gives us a 6-6 record and keeps our bowl streak alive. Which seems kind of masochistic in a way. That we spend entire seasons wishing & hoping that we can somehow make it to another Sun Bowl or Russell Athletic Bowl or whatever other bottom feeding bowl game the ACC has an alliance with these days.
Russell Athletic actually has the top pick after Orange now. Crazy.
Gator or Music City, Belk, Sun, and Pinstripe are the next pool for making choices. Then Military, Advocare V100, and Detroit Lions Bowl (really). This year, Beef O'Brady's will feature ACC vs. AAC and Birmingham Bowl may get an ACC team if enough are eligible.
I'm almost afraid to look up their locations. I can just see the commercials now - Frank telling us how exciting the Advocare 100 Bowl will be. What is Advocare? Some kind of ED medicine? Will it cure an impotent offense?
TIL - Advocare sells nutrition, weight-loss, and energy products. Maybe they can indeed give our offense a magic pill to get them in gear.
Yeah, I Wiki'ed them. I also saw that the name of the bowl has changed to the Duck Commander Bowl - as in the Duck Dynasty guys. So we might be choosing between a Pinstripe Bowl, or a Camo Bowl, or something in between.
Hey, maybe the Duck Dynasty guys will make us custom turkey gobbler calls for the swag bags. All is not lost!
This was kind of my thought too, something is going on with Brewer and I think its in his head. For the first 6 games he threw of ton of interceptions, but he also threw a ton of TDs and 15-20 yard passes. It almost feels like now he is so afraid to make a mistake that it is holding him back from making plays, its so tough to watch. I really think we should maybe give Brewer 1 more quarter and just tell him dont be afraid to make a mistake, I would rather us lose because we threw interceptions while moving the ball up and down the field over not having any interceptions but also not having any passing yards. But I think we have to have Leal or Motley ready to go if Brewer comes out flat like the first 2 or 3 series.
I have seen low times at VT before where I felt like the team was going to lose out, but then they rebound and get on a winning streak. If we can get the team together and finish the season strong maybe that could spring board us into next year. I hate to say it but I really hope the coaches havent lost the team, that is my biggest fear, I still cant believe we gave up that TD right before half. We still would have lost the game, but it would have at least been a 7 or 10 point game in the 4th quarter if we dont give that up and just get 10 points on those 3 fumble positions, hate not seeing the team fight.
Ok so short answer Yes. But for me there's more to it than that...
Where I believe CFB does well is managing a team. He is the CEO, and he runs a damn good program top to bottom; no question. But as a player, Frank was a defender, rightfully so he hired a slam dunk in Bud Foster; this is within his strength area.
Where Beamer needs to understand he needs help is on offense. In my honest opinion, he doesn't get it. He doesn't see the changes and evolution before they occur. He doesn't assess his offensive staff through the right lenses. He doesn't recognize when he has fallen behind in offensive recruiting or how to use his offensive talent to achieve his vision. Former players I know going back to the early 90s have all uttered the same sentiments. In fact, had he not been forced to make the staff change that brought in Loefler, I'm not sure he does. Did he really not see enough wrong with his offense?
See football is such a complex sport. On an admittedly much smaller scale, it was interesting to me, recently, to notice a former hokie D1 QB, defer Oline analysis to French. This should tell you that game simply is way too complicated to understand every aspect at a high level; even on the same side of the ball.
So I'll circle back to my point. I think CFB is not just a good, but a great coach. Still I believe he should be in control of this team. However, his offensive staff needs to change, and I believe he should defer the selection process. If you've noticed, CFB seems to publicly come down harder on Bud Foster and his defenses, than he typically does on the offensive staff where it appears his standards are much less. The difference is, he knows what he wants to see from his defense.
With everything we've seen with our own eyes, coupled with historical evidence, there is nothing to me that suggests Loefler will work out. We're basically just hoping at this point. Even though he likely keeps his job for a while, what's the upside we're investing in; a prolific offense? What standards are we aspiring to offensively? It's never been clear. So far in Loefler's defense you can only argue his comparison to Stinespring.
Beamer simply needs to understand, that based on his historical inconsistency in that area, and the overall team success in spite of his lowly ranked offenses, its fair to question his own know-how on the matter and find someone else to help him figure out who the right guy should be. A guy who boasts the right amount of success to boot. I'm not opposed to a FCS or even a high school guy. They come cheap and are typically innovative due to their having lack of ideal talent. Our defenses have been too good to squander.
Injuries have been a major problem with our record this year, I really believe the 4-4 could easily be 6-2 without the injuries. Would there be so much angst here if our record was 6-2? I think not, I still see a lot of positives for future and if we can get at least 2 out of Settle,Dalton and Sweat there is hope for future.
Well the issues I have with this perspective is that so much of our optimism comes from a dependance on fielding talent. While I believe talent is incredibly important, it should not be the basis of our success. Just as we are crippled by present injuries, there is no guarantee that should we land talented recruits, they will be injury free. Therefore, how prepared are we to succeed if top recruits decide to go elsewhere, or recruit God forbid, suffer injury issues.
This is why the system we apply should be much more important and should demonstrate how prepared we are to compete when the chips don't fall in our favor.
I will also say this about Beamer and his legacy here at VT. I'm torn between he does have the right to go out on his own and we should allow Whit to quietly force him out when its time.
Yes, Beamer has built this program from essentially the ground up, and he deserves all the praise and accolades he gets for doing so, and I'd like to think that, as long as the program keeps playing at a high level, he can go out whenever he sees fit. The problem is, we're not playing at a high level. We're regressing, and we're regressing very fast. We're currently in the gutter of one of the worst divisions in college football. We just got embarrassed on national television in what was supposed to be a showcase game for our school, as it was the only game playing that night. With 4 games to go, we're in danger of missing a bowl for the first time in some 22 years, and we're very likely about to lose to UVa for the first time in 10. While programs around us are quickly getting better, we're getting worse. We've made changes to the coaching staff, and we're still regressing. Ticket sales are falling and we're getting relegated to who gives a crap time slots for regional coverage on a weekly basis because nobody deems us worthy of a showcase slot. For a program that has prided itself on high national rankings, we've been ranked for about 1 week over the past 3 seasons, and that will continue into next year.
Is it worth it to allow Beamer to go out on his own if he's going to scorched earth burn the program to the ground in the process? What will be the legacy if he leaves this place playing at the same level as it was when he took it over? What will the legacy be if he leaves this place in such a mess that it'll take 5 years, minimum for the next guy to see any kind of success? I ask these questions because that is the path we're on right now.
I say give him the rest of this recruiting class to prove he's still got it. If we can bring in the likes of Sweat, Settle, Dalton, etc then we'll have the base for a very good defense going forward. If we swing and miss on them all? Its time to start implementing the process to find his replacement.
Is Frank calling the plays? I assumed Frank was establishing a game plan with Lefty and the OC is calling the plays from the booth. All of the gripes at Frank for the play calling during the game seem misdirected. I don't know what is heard on the headsets during the game and if Frank can "veto" a play call as it is being made, but I was just as shocked to see the 5th screen pass to Bucky for 2 yds when we were down 24-0 in the 4th as well and was calling for offensive coaching heads.
We dont' throw to Byrn over the middle anymore...
We don't utilize the mismatches with Bucky enough. Malleck has disappeared. We don't go downfield at all anymore. Ford and Phillips are being used on 3 yard passes.
Our best pass plays are to our fullback on broken plays.
We have no continuity or dedication to the run until it is too late.
We have no "attitude"...the team seems to lack confidence.
Everyone is right...too many screens, too many short throws.
We aren't attacking, either in the running game or through the air.
More North-South...less east-west...this applies to both the pass and run game.
I am sure Loeffler is a nice guy...but his collective body of work in calling a game have grown increasingly frustrating as the season has gone on.
Excellent points! Interesting considering we were already made to wait one year on promises of an offense dependent on Malleck's availability.
The TSL mods have said several times lately that Brewer is playing hurt, which is affecting his arm strength. Probably re-injured his back, which would explain the lack of throws down the field. I agree, though, all the dink and dunk 3-5 yards is maddening, but there may be a explanation (at least WRT the passing game). As for the running game, the whole lack of N-S running is bewildering.
Last night is more of a straw breaking the camel's back situation than anything else. As painful as it was, you certainly do not make decisions based on one game - no matter how painful it was.
The reason why Beamer needs to be seriously considering retirement:
2012: 7-6 Barely beat Rutgers the Russell Athletic Bowl
2013: 8-5 Blown out by UCLA in the Sun Bowl
2014: Currently 4-4 and staring at a 5 or 6 win season
I keep hearing about how 2016 will be our year. That's FOUR years of bad football, which should be unacceptable in Blacksburg. Even with the young talent and Durkin/Ford waiting in the wings, I don't know how much longer you can wait.
Saw a great quote on Twitter about how Frank loves this program like he loves his children and for that reason he needs to think about retiring. He's always said he doesn't want to be in the situation that Bowden and Paterno found themselves in. Assuming this year continues to skid out of control, he needs to seriously consider that that's where he may be headed.
I mean, we're 4-4 looking at a real possibility of not going to a bowl this year. We just got embarrassed on national television at home against a middling team of this conference. We haven't seriously contended for the division title over the last 3 years, during a time where in one year the top 2 teams were ineligible, and the other Duke won it.
We are a shell of the Virginia Tech football we knew and loved from 1995-2010. The logo and uniform might be the same, but the quality of play on the field is far inferior to the standards that were set during those 15 years. Our coaches are now pointing to 2 years away to being the year we are totally going to be good again (after pointing towards 2015 this past offseason). We're now in a cycle of perpetually being 2 years away. This is what we mocked UVa and Miami fans for pulling over the past 10 years, and now its us.
Beamer doesn't want to end up like Bowden or Paterno? Frank, hate to tell ya, but you're already there.
To me its a question of whether Frank being the head coach is a net positive or a net negative for the program.
He assuredly helps in some ways: recruits frequently mention him as reason for them coming to Blacksburg (stability, family atmosphere etc.), I know that some of older fans still LOVE him and frequently reference how bad it was pre-Beamer (plus they have the deeper pockets).
And I'm sure there are negative aspects as well. Do some recruits stay away because he's pushing 70, and the offensive philosophies are outdated? Do they want a younger coach? The consistent failure of the offense (and in the last few years the special teams) ultimately falls at his feet as he's responsible for Stiney/O'Cain being around for so long and assuredly was a huge part of the Loeffler/Searles hirings.
I could go on, it probably needs its own thread as it is somewhat of its own topic but realistically, these are the types of tough questions that need to be asked. I don't envy Whit's job right now.
.........actually, who am I kidding, I would give up just about anything to be Tech's AD.
Chances are Beamer has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, but I think last night's game was a true watershed moment for Beamer, as big as other watershed moments such as the first time be beat Miami. This season, and especially last nights game, seems to be the first time there has been a bigger public opinion and fear that he's over the hill. The wheels have just plain come off the team at this point after such a promising start to the season. The way the team performed in Columbus was awesome. I personally don't think the win was due to tOSU having a bad night as much as the Hokies forced them into having a bad night.
However, we're also not the same team anymore. Too many injuries to key people. Beamer can't be expected to win consistently with players that aren't ready.
-I think Brewer was beat up after tOSU and he got just plain rocked in the ECU game. I think he's hurt. There's something wrong - back injury, concussion, etc. Something is just plain off kilter with him.
-The RB injuries to Edmunds and Mackenzie are disastrous. Williams is good, the rest have some talent for doing specific things, but there isn't the depth we need now. And none of the players are totally dependable - no matter who you turn to, there are fumble issues. Maybe the fumbles can be addressed. Hope so, otherwise we're in deep kimchee for the rest of the season.
-Having Maddy and Chase Williams out really really hurts. Same with Facyson. How many other guys on defense that were expected to contributors over the past few seasons have been banged up, missed time/seasons? Injuries have really hurt defensive depth.
As for play calling, I'm sure Bud called a good game. I'm also sure the players didn't execute the calls. And hey, there are guys in there that aren't really ready. So that's to be expected. And also, the other team has good players too. They are capable of just plain beating your man. It's gonna happen. I do think if the offense would step up and contribute though, we're at least 6-2 maybe 7-1 right now, though, because Bud's crew wins their matchups a lot more than they loose.
On offense, though, the play calling seemed to doom us. I'm not sure what the issue is, but that was horrible. Who knows whether Frank's meddling, or Loeffler is more responsible, or if they feel they are limited due to bad Oline, injuries, etc. But what they are doing isn't working in dramatic fashion. They need to make big adjustments.
The remaining 4 games this season could turn out to be some of the most important moments for Frank Beamer. How he leads the team right now, whether he leads us to a successful resurgence, or whether we go down in flames, it's going to have a drastic impact on the fan base and on how his career ends. I really hope he gets things with the team back on track. If he doesn't, we're really going to be faced with a situation of either accepting things as they are and letting Frank go out on his own as the program struggles, or making the very hard decision to end the Beamer era without Frank's consent.
I will say this. Lot's of people look at the team as Frank's team. His baby. But the reality is it's the University's team. Not Frank's. I think the next four games will show us whether Frank Beamer is still up for meeting the challenge of being a head coach or not. These 4 games should show us whether the issues are rooted with the coaches, players, injuries, etc. I hope Frank shows us he can still right the ship. If he isn't up to this anymore, then some decisions are going to have to made at some point before the program starts to get back on track.
This is spot on. Virginia Tech football is bigger than just Frank Beamer. It is the revenue generator for all Virginia Tech athletics. If VT football goes into the gutter and fan support and ticket sales start to wane, we're going to have a very, very hard time financially supporting the rest of our athletic department, and the whole will suffer. And this doesn't go into how VT football getting bad is a financial blow to the economy set up and supported by VT football. Most of the stores in downtown Blacksburg get a majority of their sales over the year from home football games. The string of nooners has been enough to get our Athletic Department to beg for later games to help them financially, can you imagine how bad it would get if fan support and ticket sales went into a decline because the team stopped being relevant? Heck, even my local alumni chapter is gonna get hit pretty hard, as they make the majority of their money for their scholarship and operating revenue from the Duke tailgate, and now they're expecting such a small crowd they're likely going to have to dip into their reserves in the coming years just to get by.
Virginia Tech football is bigger than one guy. Too many people have a vested financial interest in having a good football team that we really can't afford to let one guy leave on his own terms if that means pile driving the program before he steps away. In a way, the fact this is the case is a testament to how good of a job Beamer has done, but will also be his undoing as head coach if these kinds of seasons continue.
Well said and so true.
Your last paragraph paraphrased:
"What makes you can also break you."
I'm starting to feel like I'm listening to a broken record each week...at what point will this team ever get an offense to compliment its elite defenses. Yes we have injuries but what really bothers me is the lack of adjustment or adaptation of schemes to fill the gaps. Why is no one making the hard call with Brewer? He looks scared and plays awful. I hate to see this program fall apart but it is happening. 12 & 13 were bad ...this could be worse and for what??? Another what could have been season. Beamer is a great recruiting tool but it wont matter if we keep loosing. Lefty is down right bad at playcalling. We need a change and we need it now. The absence of leafership is evident by the constant regression of this team. Soo much wased talent! Ford Philips. Hodges Rogers ...sooo frustrated right now!
I'll let Beamer's own words answer this question. Like it or not.
I get asked all the time now: How long are you going to coach? Beamer said. I say as long as Ive got a good quarterback, a good kicker and good health. So Im good to go for at least this year.
Yea, I hate it when he says that. Can't have a great QB without a good run game, which relies on having a good o-line and passing attack to compliment it.
I should have noted that I am not blaming all of this on Beamer, he just shoulders a lot of it.
Beamer is not making this team better. We are regressing in ways I never thought possible. I understand injuries happen, but the difference from week 1 until now is baffling. I would be more kind to Beamer if I at least saw marginal improvement from week to week. There mere fact we get worse as the year goes on is the biggest sign of ineptitude. It doesn't all fall on Beamer, but it is most definitely his job to fix the leaks. And fast.
this is the point of a question i've been asking myself for weeks. if it's not beamer's fault, then what is he doing to make the team better. i'm sure he's doing something. whether it's hunkering down to basics, or stepping outside of his comfort zone...i don't know, but whatever it is, it's not working. if it's not working, then isn't it by default...his fault? i haven't convinced myself of anything at this point but these are the type of questions i'm battling internally (and i guess now externally).
$hit flows downhill...so no matter whose fault it is, Beamer has to take responsibility.
This is the same in any job. The Captain of the ship is ultimately responsible.
Flat out...no more excuses or what-if's....we flat out got our a$$es kicked in multiple games already this season. Last night was as thorough an a$$kicking as I have ever seen us take...
CFB is an amazing coach...if we can get a Mike Tomlin-level coach (Tomlin is a 757 native and W&M graduate), then we should make a change...otherwise I can deal with some of the growing pains right now
So we're looking for a coach who inherited a championship team and lets it slide slowly down a rocky slope...hmm...no one comes to mind.
What bothers me about all of this with Beamer stepping down is that everyone seems to think that we are a prime time destination for college coaches. I think we are being delusional if we think we will get the next great coach and they will stay. Unless they are a VT guy, they will be off to whatever SEC school will pay them.
It's not realistic to expect to find another coach that stays for decades. It's not necessary that the next coach stays for decades. The world has changed, nobody does that any more. When we get another really good/great coach, and he decides to leave after 6-8 years, that's fine. We'll replace him with someone else that is really good/great to stay for 6-8 more years.
To start... man, last night's game was truly painful to watch. There are certainly adverse health effects when becoming a hokie fan. I am flat out tired of watching a defense try and hold together a game for 60 minutes.
We seem to be riding the ole' ball coach straight into figurehead status. He is the head honcho, the winningest head coach in CFB, and virtually a glorified special teams coach at this stage of his career. I mean, did any of you diehards watch the ESPN all access where he led the special teams meetings? Nobody gets amped to watch punt coverage video with AJ Hughes, like Frank. We rely on
arguablythe best defensive coordinator in the country, and some stellar defensive positional coaches to gauge and develop talent. It shows, week by week, season by season. I've always believed Bud has stuck around so long because his love and desire to work for Frank, and more importantly because he has total control of the only side of the ball he cares to control. Our defensive staff isjust as committed to tech as the players they hope to sign. That is not the case on offense.We are fortunate to have a premium defensive staff. Unfortunately, we lack offensive leadership and have for some time. What kind of organization demotes an offensive coordinator like the Stiney situation played out, just to keep him on staff . What kind of prideful man takes that demotion? Why in hell was Mike O'Cain the next in line for play calling? Why did we hire Scot Loeffler to follow, coming off a winless SEC season calling plays for Auburn, because he name dropped a few bigtime QB's? Why do we have some many white kids at QB for Tech, we can't win like that, common knowledge. The thought of Chris Durkin and Andrew Ford being the future hokie hopefuls pains me deeply. But hey! They are Loeffler's guy's... His playcalling speaks for itself, game by game it grows eerily similar to a certain tight ends coach I know. His substitutions are questionable. I saw a physically and mentally tired Juice Williams fumble on the 2 yard last night, and all i could question is why that hadn't let him sit the rest of the drive.
I have an issue with leappad coaches, looking at VT as a kick to their next big gig. Aaron Moorehead will be out of here as soon as Phillips and Ford shine a little stronger. I pray for one stellar offensive season so Scot Loefller can move on. Searels was just looking for a job come last season. Jeff Grimes was a clear leappad kind of guy. Thanks for a season, coach.
We need an offensive staff that can carry their own weight with a vested interest in Virginia Tech, since Frank is transitioning from head coach to effectively one of those delusional retirees who smile and wave as you enter Wal-mart. I don't see a solution in canning Frank unless we identify a head coach that can manage the entirety of the program, even if he isn't calling plays. While our issues start with him, the live much lower on the colloquial coaching food chain. We need an offensive coordinator who can secularize an offense much like Bud completed on the other side of the ball. And we need to stop recruiting white pocket quarterbacks for crying out loud. Taking on Brewer showed how desperate we were, and how out of touch our staff is if they thought a 6 foot, pencil shaped white kid who whined his way out TT's spread offense would be our saving grace.
I love VT football for those emotional wins, that spirit of Lane, the walk-ons who earn their spot as contributors, the 4 #6 badass we have kicking off and making big hits on special teams. Those feel good moments are what keep the fans, but we all know Frank will never win a National Championship the way this program runs. We hang our hats on 'doing things right', but settle for mediocrity.
I downvoted you.
I didn't like the shots at Brewer nor the race implications. I don't give a shit if you're white, black, yellow, purple, green, red or fucking pink. If you can play ball and love Virginia Tech you can play for this team.
Hokies aren't rascit or ignorant. And Brewer is going through a rough time right now, obviously. But you're delusional if you think he's doing it on purpose. I can promise you he's giving it his all out there and just in a bad funk.
This post does not deserve downvotes. I'll leave it up to everyone else whether the one to which it is replying deserves them (I do not like the racial implications, either).
I'm assuming that the whole white qb thing is a joke, because there are obviously a lot of good qbs who are white. You made some good points other than that. When Frank Beamer retires, I wonder what will happen to his son. Will VT keep Shane around regardless of how he's doing because of a feeling of being indebted to Frank?
You had me intrigued until the athletic ability of a race was called into question.
You sir need to take a step back and think before you post.
Yeah, I'll say it, I down voted you also. I don't understand at all why you had to bring up this issue of race into the post. You leave out all the 'white' references and your post would have actually been decent.
So who is on the short list for candidates to replace Beamer? If he were gone tomorrow, who would the fans like to see get the nod? And contrast the answers to that question who is realistic to get in here. Obviously we'd love Saban, but something like that won't happen.
This is something I've been kicking around for a while now, and this seems like as good a place as any to post it.
To all of the "Beamer needs to go" fans, who do you actually want replacing him? Who do you think would be such a sure thing as an upgrade that you're willing to bet the future of the program? Are we going to pull Jimbo? One of the Harbaughs? Gus Malzhan? Dan Mullen from MSU? Timecop just for giggles? Especially in a year where multiple marquee programs are probably going to be looking for head coaches (Florida and Michigan, then whatever programs they poach from), does Virginia Tech really have a "sure thing" guy they can go out and hire? Who is the football equivalent of Buzz that a growing portion of fans are eyeing up? I'm honestly asking this, since I've thought about it every time I see this subject come up on the message boards.
It's hard after the losses VT has suffered the last few games (and seasons) to see any positives in our team, but I find it even harder to imagine a situation where we go out and snag a big time hire, and it turn out that Beamer's coaching really was the only thing holding our program back.
Just my thoughts.
I'm not asking for Frank to be replaced this year. However, when the time comes to replace Frank, my answer to you would be - Whoever Whit Babcock selects.
Nobody in Hokie Nation or anywhere else in college basketball imagined he would hire Buzz to replace James Johnson. Sure there were lots who still wanted Johnson to stay on with the old mantra - 'He needs 2-3 more years to get his players in place'. Some people selected whatever random former Hokie basketballer came to their mind, as though only a former Hokie player/coach could ever succeed here.
I have the same perspective on the next head coach in football. I don't care if he's got a Hokie pedigree. I want someone who uses a contemporary offensive & defensive philosophy, and who is ethical. I have 100% faith in Whit Babcock to make the informed choice when that time comes.
Just wanted to clarify that I'm not saying Beamer needs to go immediately. Mainly I was trying to get those calling for him to be gone to take it one step further and think it all the way through, ie - if he's gone, who replaces him? and will they be any better? Overall, VT has really lucked out with Frank Beamer over the past 27 or so years.
So who is the next man up?
-Bud?
-Chad Morris?
-Pep Hamilton?
-Maybe another up and comer coordinator like Baylor's OC?
-Once upon a time Stinespring was thought of as potential HC material. Good recruiter, good organizer, etc. Maybe with the right coordinator help, he'd actually be a really good HC. If Dabo Sweeny can do it, maybe Stinespring could?
-An up and comer from a smaller school/conference? Or an FCS guy? tOSU pulled the Sweater from Youngstown and he immediately up'd their performance and soon won them a MNC.
I remember Nebraska canning Frank Solich after he'd gone 9-3 and ending up with Tom Callahan. I remember how it worked out too. Florida, Michigan, etc. have also had their coaching headaches related to turnover at the head coach spot. Even Miami has.
Honestly, if we want to take the football program to where all the die hard Hokie fans want it, we probably need to figure out a jump to the SEC. Otherwise, we'll be a stepping stone instead of a destination. If it weren't for Beamer, we'd have been a stepping stone the past 27 years.
Is a jump to the SEC worth it? I don't claim to know the answer to that question.
My point was that speculating about who could possibly replace Frank ignores the fact that Whit will make a solid choice whenever the time comes. So me guessing Chad Morris or Nick Saban or Vince Lombardi doesn't matter. Whit will probably surprise us, but he will definitely make the right choice. That was MY point.
As for whether anyone could follow Frank and succeed? I am certain that it can be done, and I have faith it will be done. Lots of people wring their hands at the thought of a different coach from the only one they've known since they became Hokie fans. I don't. I understand that there is more than one human that can produce a successful football program. Could they end up being better than Frank? Sure. They might also produce similar results. or they could be inferior. And that's fine, if they're bad, Whit will replace them. If they have us at 8-4 every season, well that seems to be the new ceiling for us now with Frank at the helm. If they get us to ten plus wins & actually beat elite opponents, then that will be great.
As for the whole SEC thing? We belong in the ACC. We are in the ACC. All those who have impact on the decision want us to stay in the ACC. There is life beyond college football. Thankfully the decision makers understand that. ACC may not be the best, but it is ours.
Bud Foster and I'd give him a blank check to round out his coaching staff as he sees fit.
If he surrounds himself with good offensive coaches and he keeps his hands off that side of the game, he'll have a lot of success at the next level. Lord knows I'd love to see some fire from the head coach again on our sidelines.
I have no doubt in my mind that Frank 100% believes that the position should go to Shane. Fortunately, we have an AD who apparently has a set and will make a decision that's right for the program and school.
We also have a whole lot of moneyed donors who don't mind allowing Frank's nepotism towards Shane when Shane is just a RB coach, but they will absolutely not tolerate Shane being named head coach. That will not happen. Under Jim Weaver, it was very likely. Whit is not that stupid - Whit is not stupid at all. He would not interview Shane for the position, much less hire him.
What exactly has he said that makes you think that? Simply hiring Shane to be the RB coach and give recruiting a much-needed lift is a far cry from setting him up to inherit the program.
I agree, I think a lot of people read into "Associate Head Coach" quite a bit. I don't know if there's any value in that title, to be honest. Basically, Shane just took over Billy Hite's job entirely, all titles included.
OR, Billy Hite is related to Frank and the nepotism goes deeper...
nothing specifically that Frank Beamer has said but i'm taking some contextual information (timing of the hire was about 5 years before Beamer's unofficial end. 5 years is kind of what you'd expect someone to put into the program before people would be ok with taking a HC position) mixed with something i've heard within the program (a rift between foster and beamer over shane) and adding the fact that blood is thicker than water and making my guess based on that.
to be honest, i completely forgot about his associate coach title so that didn't factor into my statement.
#sources
I've never heard anything about a rift between FBeamer and Foster on this topic.
Trying to recall if I've ever really heard of a rift due to ANY topic other than a basic exasperation regarding the offense in general.
I had heard back in the last couple of years of the Stinespring OC era that Bud had finally lost his patience in having to shoulder the burden of winning games for Frank, and voiced that.
As for the staff last year & this year, there were no strains between the staff. Until the WMU game. Now, there is reportedly some discord regarding the offensive mindset, but that is among the offensive coaches themselves. At this point, I think Bud is done worrying about whether or not Frank's offense will carry their load. He's been with him too long to not already know that's not really happening.
It still just really sounds like you're grasping at stuff here. I still see absolutely nothing substantial that would even begin to suggest that there's any real chance Shane is being prepped to be the HC or that Frank's intention when he hired Shane was to just hand him the reigns when Frank retired.
I've heard the same thing from individuals who are close to big donors. Supposedly there is a lot of tension between our coaching staff. Some coaches supposedly didn't go in the locker room at half last week.
The tension from what I've heard isn't directly because of Shane. Don't want to be a gossiper. Just throwing it out there. Make what you want of it.
I could see there being some tension about the decision to play Wright over Coleman, but that's pure conjecture.
Allegedly he (Writght) quit back in August due to lack of PT, but then when he comes back to the team a week or two ago, allegededly he's been practicing with the team all fall?
Don't know if that was Coach Beamer's call or Shane's call to play him over JC last Thursday, but Coach Beamer was on record asnwering a question about Wright, saying they wanted to try and get a bigger back similar to Marshawn some reps.
Makes a good bit of sense to me since JC had been totally ineffective, but I could see how other coaches/players could resent someone skipping up the depth chart like that, especially since Caleb has shown flashes and deserves more touches, and we have Sam Rogers who can fill that 2nd big-bruiser-back role just fine, so if you don't want to play JC, fine don't play him - but there wasn't really a need to play Wright.
I think they were in dire need of a running game, and since everyone else on the roster seemingly has had a chance at one point during the season,, why not give Wright a chance? If he has shown the coaches during practice that he deserves a shot, I'm ok with it
There really wasn't a reason to play Wright whatsoever. Wright got 3 carries for 9 yards. They burned a guy's redshirt for 3 carries & 9 yards in the 8th game of a lost season? That's yet another example of extremely shortsighted vision by offensive coaches who work for Frank Beamer.
That being said, there was no reason to play Coleman, either. He has for the entirety of his career been nothing more than a situational player. He is a favorite of Shane, though, so he's got that going for him, evidently. Marshawn Williams did not have so many carries he was worn out. He could have handled 3 more carries, and Wright's redshirt wouldn't have been burned. Just very shortsighted grasping by a Frank Beamer offense. Again.
For all we know, Wright was told that if he came back to the team, he would get playing time. The guy was one of the few bright spots of the Sun Bowl. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen Beamer keep his word regardless of the effect such as when he redshirted Mike Vick.
Then why didn't he get more playing time than 3 carries in the 8th game of the season? Let's not pretend there is any comparison to Michael Vick, that is straw man reasoning. Everything about his play is similar to Marshawn. Why water down Marshawn's peformance by giving plays to Wright that burned his redshirt?
Wright carried 7 times for 27 yards in the Sun Bowl.
I'm not making any comparison to Mike Vick at all. I'm using a similar situation where Beamer made a promise that he kept, whether it was to a fault or not. We don't know the circumstances here and it's entirely speculation. I'm sure going into the game if the coaches planned to play him, they didn't say "oh, he's only getting 3 carries."
Ok, so you heard it from a guy that heard it from a guy that donates a lot of money.
Eh...
to clarify, i heard about the rift/blow up directly from someone in the program and the exact same thing from someone with a different but close connection to the program. two different types of sources. same detailed information. take it for whatever you want. i get the skepticism. that's fine.
i take it as accurate because these two different connections have provided some spot on inside information (for example, info on maddy's knee and journell's issues to name just a couple) for the past 2 years.
I know a guy that's a big donor and I don't even trust 1/2 the stuff I say.
Egbert, I don't trust half of what you say either. :-)
smart man. : )
Yep. Even big donors who provide inside info have agendas, and that agenda is not usually to present unbiased, balanaced reporting. Generally speaking they're either going to spin their insider tidbits to either make the coaching staff look good or bad - depending on whether they still want Coach Beamer around or not.
it's funny you bring this [some of the coaches refusing to go into the locker room at halftime] up because this morning i was told the same thing by the person that told me about the rift between Foster and Beamer. i was also told that upperclassmen held a vote of sorts to not let stanford and wright back onto the team. apparently some of the coaches supported the vote, to not let them back on because they essentially quit on the team, but beamer dismissed the vote and made his own decision (which is fine) but it didn't sit well with some of the coaches and players.
so here's the deal, there is a lot of information about contention within the program that is making its way out. regardless of whether or not someone believes the information, it's never good when that type of stuff gets out of the bag. it creates a lot of anxiety. at minimum, the coaches need to do a better job of keeping their issues behind closed doors.
Hokie football goals: NC - sorry; Top 25 - nope; Ten win season - nada; Big bowl game - huh uh; ACCCG - no way; Coastal champ - sorry; any bowl - looking bad; beating LOLUVA - gonna be tough;
Well, as said before, I don't know what has happened, who is at fault, how to fix it, if anyone should be fired, etc. All I do know is that we have regressed to what we nationally displayed last night. I can't recall a more embarassing, a more inept, or a more humiliating game since the day I became a fan. Will I still follow them? Yes. These are kids with heart and dreams. I can't desert the players. I became a fan of Leal last night. I don't care if he played against scrubs or what. He came in and the team executed and kept our 251 game streak alive - pretty much all we have left to hold on to. I am a supporter and financially have done the best I can. But I expect these youngsters to be coached up and prepared by the well-paid coaches at least good enough to compete. It is my opinion that they are not and are on the verge of being demoralized if not already.
For all the people calling for a coaches head, don't you realize that may mean a few years of the same before dominance happens again?
Do you think all the current recruits would feel the same about the program and want to be a part of the Hokie fam?
A lot of people say Bud would be next in line. If he is, do you think he would make dramatic changes? He has been with Beamer forever, not sure he would have a different mentality.
From what I gather of Bud, in the interviews of him that I've heard, is that he understands that he needs an up tempo offense with a goal of getting points on the board to compliment his defense. He has been wanting this for a while, but he has too much respect for Frank Beamer to do anything that undermines the thoughts and directions that he has for this team.
If the time comes that Bud is promoted, I don't believe for a second that we'll be running anything similar to the offense we've been seeing.
IMHO I think we have reached the ceiling with Frank Beamer. I never see us reaching a national championship, let alone the playoffs. I think we need a new coach that will bring new energy to the team. If it takes a couple years of low years to reach a peak that we desire for, then so be it, I think we would take that tradeoff. You bring in the right coach that recruits will be excited about, recruiting wont take a dip either.
The biotechnology folks at VT just need to engineer the perfect HC to be the Frankinator's successor for when he does go. After VT dominates the FBS with this uber coach for 5+ years, everyone else will be playing catch-up. #InventTheFuture
They don't have the resources for that, unfortunately. All available lab space and personnel are currently devoted to creating more Fullers, a noble and necessary pursuit.
Perhaps you roll the projects togther? Frankenstein Frank and Fuller? A Frank-en-Fuller, if you will?
Or a Fuller Frank. We all know that fat Frank > skinny Frank.
(I'll see myself out)
Found this on ESPN. It's about the my Giants, but it sounds eerily similar to a certain situation we're dealing with at Tech. If you just change every Giant they mention to a Hokie it's pretty similar. (Sports in general these past couple years have just been tough for me and my fandom. NY Yankees, NY Giants, Rutgers, VT, I apparently just love misery.)
I'm not saying anything about CFB just thought it was an interesting debate.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11820331
Mike Leach out here at WA State may be available at the end of this year or the next. Couple his offensive genius with Bud Foster's defensive approach and it may be a winner.