The other thread has gotten a bit out of control.
Jalen Dalton will make his college decision next Thursday(11-13) at 3:45pm in the Media center at West Forsyth...#ChaseTheLion #VT #UNC— WF Titan Football (@WF_Football) November 6, 2014
NCPreps.com will carry a stream of his announcement.
Mike Farrell, the National Recruiting Director for Rivals.com, and self proclaimed Godfather of Recruiting, thinks Dalton will pick Virginia Tech.
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Comments
I am going to lose my mind if he picks us.
I'm going to lose my mind either way.
AHHH IT'S ALMOST TIME
So basically, I need to leave work early so I am not driving at this time, then get home and...
Woke up today and put on my "expecting the worst, hoping for the best" suit. UNC being in-state scares me, but I hope Farrell is right.
Same here. I'm probably going to be a nervous wreck all day more than likely.
It should scare you... UNC-Chapel Hill has a strangle hold on being the dream school for Triad kids - both athletic and non-athletic alike.
Personally, I would be pleasantly surprised if he's a Hokie today. Then, I'd still worry right up to February.
It's 8:58 and this pretty much sums it up right now...
Today could also be a start to a great recruiting domino effect imo
Should make this maroon and orange, and put a T next to it.
That would be really cool if I wasn't at work :(
You can have this instead though:
Upvote because that is probably my favorite movie
I like the way you think!!! This would be a great way to build some excitement before we beat Duke - GO HOKIES!!!
i sure hope so.... and if he goes to UNC i hope the domino effect is something like this....
If we get him I'm going to be all
If he picks us, its time for a pants off dance off
Seriously after the last few years I don't know if I can take any more disappointment... picking us or UNC I will still be happy for the kid, just may pick up the bourbon for a different reason... Hokie Nation wants you Jalen!
Huge day for us. I think if we can land Dalton, a lot of the other sexy recruits may follow suit.
I believe if he is objective in his thought process VT will win easily. Alas, he is a young man and I have trepidations. Go Hokies!
I hope he is the first in a line of very highly rated dominoes to pick the good guys!
Joe, Thanks for the new thread that is actually about the player and not other things. That said, I hope he picks us for a quality education rather than going to an academic shamble.
Unless something changed in the past couple days, my guess is he'll be a Hokie. That said, a lot can happen in a couple days....
If they get Dalton, I'll be at First Down on Saturday to celebrate with ya'll.
If they don't get Dalton, I'll be at First Down on Saturday to drown sorrows with ya'll.
Let's go VT.
We might not win the ACC, but we can with the recruiting trail
Thank god I'll be at work today and will be too busy to think about this. Otherwise I'd probably need therapy
Sometimes I feel like ole Gil on these days
Close the deal Gil, close the deal!
Those Coleco's will rust up on ya!
So you're saying there's a chance...
Me waking up this morning !!!!
Me after he commits to VT
Is there going to be a stream on the interweb somewhere where I can watch him choose?
The link in the OP is the stream.
Well, don't I feel smart?
Hey, I'm just glad to see someone else is capable of doing that kind of stuff! :-)
TOO NERVOUS TODAY!!!!
Just stay calm and.......
Never trust Mike Farrell. He's the one who started the "Kevin Jones' Dad will now be the new S&C Coach at VT" after his verbal (because Al Golden told him it was true)
{Of course, this seems like a terrible time to whine about that specific situation since we apparently just hired Chris Clarke's coach after he flipped.....}
Is this official? Did we really give his dad a job?
There's a rumor floating around that one of the coaches at his HS will be taking a Basketball Ops job at VT maybe sometime after this season. But that's all that has been floated around so far...
I mean, isn't that a blatant NCAA violation? I sure as hell hope that isn't true.
I'm sure hiring HS coaches is not a violation.
hoping JD adds his talents to #VTfab15
I have visions of the crowd at the Battle at Bristol going nuts for a sack-fumble-TD, Corey Moore style, by Jalen Dalton... or Tenn's QB getting pounded and after a couple sacks by Dalton & Sweat then getting antsy and chucking a jump ball that Mook takes to the house... #lpd
Ok that's it, I'm out of here till after he decides! I can't get anything done. I'm sweating bullets!
Dat Emma. Where is that from?
Weeds, I think.
Someone on TSL stating that their sources round the 'Burg says he's VT Bound!
...so, you know, take that FWIW
Thank you.
I am now officially putting the band on standby...
I will sing this at First Down Sports Bar on Saturday if Dalton commits to VT today.
The best part of that scene is when they get the other bar patrons to join in. I love that flick.
My litta buttahcup
Ehschmile!
With choreography?
I'm expecting a similar crowd reaction.
I'd offer to videotape this, but doubt I will be able to hold my phone straight due to the giggling and beer.
Is that the thread where is sources were JC Shurburtt's crystal ball prediction from a few moths back + Bill Kings guess?
No nothing that old -- thread started today.
I was referring to the thread today:
http://chat.virginiatech.sportswar.com/message_board/vtfootball/2014/Nov...
Oh no - not that one.
Chris Coleman is a little less confident on the Sub side. I don't know if his sources are any better or not.
We've been burned way too many times for me to a) get to excited about big-time DL(especially) recruits, or b) get too bummed when they inexplicably pick somewhere else after being a "Heavy VT Lean" for a long period of time. Here's hoping to change that trend starting now!
I've always wondered what goes through our coaches' minds on a day like today...
I'll hazard a guess.
Stress hormones followed by caffeine, nicotine or alcohol.
Decision day will really get after ya
Hello, Frank.
They already know. The kids traditionally let their recruiter know the day before. Thus, the "crystal ball" thing. Guys like Evan Watkins are just mouthpieces for the coaching staffs.
If we are reading into the crystal balls, nobody who picked VT has flipped today. Hopefully that is a good sign.
Dalton didn't notify either staff yesterday...
Does anybody have his ranks and stars on the different recruiting sites. For some reason rivals isn't working for me? What about 24/7?
247 composite has him as high 4star (96.7), #65 overall, #4 WDE, #2 in NC
247's ratings are 5 star (98), #29 overall, #2 WDE, #2 in NC
Also, Rivals has him at 4 stars, #69 overall. ESPN has him at 4 stars, #86.
I tried to sell my soul to the devil for his commitment this morning. Turns out I already sold it in 1982 for a new set of Legos...who knew?
Oh well...guess I'll just have to ask Santa for it.
Was it worth it?
Yes. I made a house and then knocked it down...leaving all the pieces on the floor for my Dad to step on at 4:00 am when I asked him to get me a glass of water.
(Wow...I may have some deep seeded issues??!!)
At least you didn't get Mega Bloks
All I ever had were Mega Bloks. Not complaining, because I had tons of other cool toys, but you couldn't do anything with Mega Bloks.
Let us not forget Lincoln Logs...
Used to lauch the hell out of the small logs.
man i LOVED lincoln logs..,
Ever flip two lincoln logs in the air and poke yourself right in the eye? This guy did. Ahhh, first grade was the best. Never played with those again
I loved some legos and occasionally some Lincoln logs, but I was all about some K'nex. I built a Ferris wheel that you could spin with a hand crank, among many other things. Anybody else out there K'nex fans??
uh.... legos, of course it was
Legos - engineering school
I'd say, yes.
less than 2 hours.
C'mon Hokies! Hopefully the coaches were able to seal the deal and Dalton will soon be a Hokies. Having Dadi, Ekenam, Sweat( I know I'm getting even more ahead of myself)
, and Dalton in our two deep would be amazing!
Seems to be trending to UNC.
Says who / what?
UNC just got a crystal ball vote
no, it looks like some of the VT crystal balls are being removed. I am guessing they are withdrawing their CB until right before the commitment. Could mean anything.
No, they're flips. Even Evan Watkins, the VTScoop writer, has flipped his. This one's over.
dang, yeah, the list just updated for me.
:(
Yup, and there go the rest of them. Don't know what happened the past few days, but there he goes.
Looks like the staff needs to gear up for another flip. If he commits there I wouldn't call it over just yet. Fedora's seat has be getting pretty warm and that could change things.
Did anyone know what Jalen was actually thinking these last couple of days? My guess is no. This kid has been as tightlipped as can be at the end of his recruitment.
I think Crystal Ball votes should be cut off the day before the kid decides... this is ridiculous!
Word going around seems to be that UNC will be the destination
JC Shuburtt has changed his crystal ball pick to UNC, FWIW...
How does one person's CB flip mean anything?
Because JC doesn't flip unless he knows he's right. My guess: Dalton just called the UNC staff and let them know, and that leaked out.
Also, its 6 CB switchs, not just JC.
I don't think it applies here but some of the writers and contributors of other teams pages that really have no insight, just opinion, just pick/switch to the same team that the recruiting "experts" pick.
I'm certain thats exactly what happened in this case, but even still, those writers and contributors have much more insight and weight on their predictions than your average O&M goggled hokies predicting #allofthefivestars will commit to VT.
If it happens on the day of the commitment it usually means the truth was leaked. Unless you don't tell anyone (including your parents), it's really hard to keep that kind of news a secret.
looks like hes choosing the quality education from UNC
Evan Watkins has him to UNC
He gone
I hope he commits to VT. But if not I really hope we don't have any sourpuss fans tweet him mean things.
Be prepared to be disappointed twice.
And I really wanted to see French singing "My Little Buttercup", too. Best of luck, Jalen
I have a feeling today may just be the first of quite a few disappointments for the big name targets.
We have been talking about the "dominos falling", I just hope its not in the other direction. Unfortunately, good (and potentially sleazy) recruiters have a myriad of legitimate, directly football related ways to disparage VT right now lined up on a silver platter.
Yeah, wasn't Dalton the one we were supposed to have the *best* shot of landing?
That's why I was kind of preaching caution about all of the "things are going to be amazing after we land all of these highly rated recruits and pull in the best class ever!" going on, it was almost entirely hinged on people who hadn't committed, and who we in general, couldn't close on.
We just (seemingly) lost a guy who had heavily favored us the whole time...to a program in the midst of a gigantic cheating/corruption scandal...at the last minute...again.
I was girding myself for this one, so I'm not super bummed. But I'm still kind of bummed. It would be sweet if any of these ever worked out for us...
Well, Dalton was 99% to UNC until mid September when he visited VT. We were able to get him thinking about us pretty late.
He basically went back to his original favorite all along.
He sure did. They always seem to find a reason to pick someone else...don't they?
Except when they don't.
I don't think it's any secret why we struggle to close. Our defense isn't aligned with NFL defenses. We have average to marginal recruiters. We have a coach who almost assuredly will not be here in 4 years, probably not 2. We have an awful offense. It's not brain surgery.
I don't understand this exchange. It feels like you're disagreeing with me, but I agree with everything you are saying.
This is what happens when your head coach doesn't recruit
me in one hour.
I hate recruiting diappointments
I hope no one here gets hope up for Sweat, Settle, DeBerry etc etc. This is the one we had best chance with, and blew it. We can watch idly by as these others choose other destinations as well.
I try to be as optimistic as possible, but the reality is we can't close on blue-chip recruits. Perhaps we land Sweat because Stiney is a boss on the recruiting trail, but that seems like a reach.
We can fix that
I think we may need to follow the hoops dept lead
Clarke - #1 hoops player in the State of Va, #9 Shooting Guard in the nation. Signed LOI 11/12/2014
Blackshear 4* Commit
Robinson 3* Commit
I'll give Buzz some credit he has come in and blown up the idea that you cannot recruit top players to Tech. Within a couple months he's secured basically 2 mid to high nationally ranked classes with the worst team in the ACC last year.
So it's not that we can't get kids to ever want to come here. We're just failing at making that decision happen.
And that the problem...
that's an idea no one should have ever had
Alabama recruits just fine...and there's nothing to do in alabama. Even the NFL won't go there. It's a coach and how well he sells the program.
UVA got 2 5* players and they don't even have a real football team for them to play on. He sold an imagination to them
(steping on the soap box) Beamer never really hardcore recruited, but has been able to see players with a drive and turn that into good team. I'd say the team we have now was recruited the same as 4 years ago as it was 4 years before that, minus some minor changes. But what isn't there....the coaching to great players. That and college football D-1 now has 128 teams and that recruiting is different. If you are good at football someone has seen you. and there are more teams fighting for what used to be unknown players.
Jake Groove came to Tech unrecruited as an unknown but 2* player that left Tech 4 years later as an All-American. But only after 4 years of coaching did he become an AA. If Groove was a recruit this year Tech may still win due to name recognition but it would face far heavier competition from ECU or App State or Ga Southern. And why are e going after such talent any way. On the same level as the Sun Belt Confrence?
I hope he tricks everyone out and pulls a Tyrod saying "I choose....the University of....Virginia Tech" (even though its not correct).
Not looking good, but lets wait until its official before conceding anything.
Wow....I just don't understand the thinking there. I could understand not coming to Tech, but why UNC? With everything that has come up recently, it just seems like he'd be diving head first into a shit storm.
Well, Butch got a lot of kids on board by convincing them nothing was wrong...
I just think it speaks more about the program when you have ex-players commenting on the situation in a negative way than when a coach says it.
You mean like Todd Washington?
Def not the same, and Todd didn't even quote Byrn properly.
They had the better sales pitch - something that I'm convinced Virginia Tech has struggled with despite the many quality things Virginia Tech brings to the table vs other schools.
Convince the kid that potential sanctions or not, shouldn't have any effect on UNC's superior track record of putting D Lineman in the NFL vs VT?
Just one of many possible angles
Because Julius Peppers definitely developed and played under the same coaches that are still at UNC.
Wait. You mean they've had FOUR different head coaches since then? Well...
Did he make an announcement? No? Well then stop freaking out everyone! The Crystal Ball is a marketing ploy, not the all-knowing resource for recruiting. Sheesh...
No, Crystal Balls are reflections of what the coaching staff tell the recruit guys.
Especially in this situation, it means he's told the coaches.
Yea this part of the crystal ball stuff I don't like. It takes the wind out of the sail for these recruits. Could you imagine if it was leaked before KJ shocked PSU? Or Tyrod? I just think they kill a certain aura of the recruiting process.
There is nothing about the Crystal Ball thing I like. It's terribly inaccurate for most of the recruiting process then completely accurate the day of the announcement. It is completely ridiculous. I think the Nazi's invented it.
Eh, I think it was a smart marketing move and it gives something to talk about in the time before they commit, I just think they should shut it down or not be allowed to change their predictions after a certain point.
I feel you're right but I'm genuinely curious...what does a recruit get by telling a school's coaches his intentions a few hours or a day before actually making the announcement?
It means you all THINK he's told the coaches. It means nothing at all until he's signed a letter of intent. This is an 18-year old kid. Do you actually expect that ANYONE knows what he's thinking?
Yes. The coaches know.
i read something on here just a few days ago about how our own CFB chose UNC and had "told the coaches" of his decisions... we see how that worked out. I know it sounds like a bunch of bad news coming our way and it kinda snow balls and gets everyones drawers in a bunch but lets just let it play out.
1. Girls
2. Food
3. Football
Just my guess as I was once an 18 year old male as well.
Peer pressure will get after ya. :-(
Maybe he has intentions of the NFL and for some reason thinks he has a better chance at UNC than VT. Who knows whats going on behind the scenes but the fact that they're able to pull a 5* recruit in the midst of a huge scandal is impressive. The fact that we couldn't convince a kid to come to VT is sadly another thrust deeper of the knife in our recruiting hearts.
There are a lot of things that go into making a decision: playing time, recent schedules, overall team ect ect.... Maybe the downfall/little lul we are having is scaring him away.. who knows but its starting to become a broken record.
Because UNC is on a big winning streak right now?
a 1-4 record in the ACC isn't so hot either.. and with beamer maybe retiring/stepping down in 16 could be enough to scare people away.. I know Fedora is on the hot seat too but who knows whats going on over there I certainly don't
I'm not saying that your points were invalid, just saying that UNC doesn't look all the dissimilar to us. The biggest difference is the current academic scandal and location.
The biggest difference is that Larry Fedora is an Ace recruiter and a proven closer, and Frank Beamer...is not.
Good god, why do people just completely make up crap to take a shot at Beamer?
What has Fedora done as a head coach to show that he is an "ace recruiter and a proven closer". In fertile recruiting areas, his classes at UNC have been ranked (in chronological order) #44, #42, #23 (& #30 for 2015) and at S. Miss were #37, #53, #53, #86.
If this kid - from North Carolina - goes to UNC, it's almost certainly NOT because Fedora is a great recruiter and Beamer isn't.
I hate to break this to you, but this is by no means news about Beamer...I mean not even close. Frank Beamer, how he feels about recruiting, and the role he takes therein. I'm literally making none of this up.
So we agree that your statement about Fedora - and the comparison of him to Beamer -- was totally incorrect and not supported by facts?
oh yeah I agree it sucks, people will question the kid (in a unfair manner) about his reasoning/ lack of academic integrity but so be it. Its another L for the recruiting staff and I hope to god this isn't the domino that falls back on our face
I don't think uncertainty of the head coach weighs too much in a recruits decision. He either doesn't like him or he does. If it were me and I liked Beamer and the program at VT I would trust that if he steps down while I'm there, they will hire a new guy that fits the system well. If I didn't like Beamer, it still wouldn't be a deal breaker. Ultimately its the position coach they will spend the most time with.
As far as record, most recruits know we're in a slump but we're not a perennial slump team like wake forest of late. Looking at our loses this year, we're maybe 20 points away from a perfect season right now sans Miami. (didn't look it up, just guessing)
It is possible that we could be on the winning side of the CB projections. We had a QB last year that was 100% VT CB i believe and then went elsewhere.
I mean, anything's *possible*.
Was this Jacob Park?
No, I'm pretty sure it was Mason Rudolph who went to Okie State.
Everyone has banked on us getting all of these top recruits when we can never land them in the first place. What did you guys expect? This is a yearly occurrence for us.
With Beamer's situation up in the air, this could be a cruel recruiting season.
And Fedora's isn't?
Fedora can win himself into still being the coach at UNC in 4 years. Beamer....can't.
I don't know if "can" is the right word there. Haha. Fedora does have the opportunity to though.
Fedora can sell that though. "If we get you, we'll win the ACC every year the next four years!"
Beamer can't sell "If we get you, I'll get younger and still be here in four years!"
He's not going to be here in four years and none of us has any idea what is going to happen once he steps down. And that may haunt us the rest of this recruiting season.
I was just trying to make a joke that Fedora hasn't shown the ability to win. But your greater point is true.
A few of my co-workers have some connections within the school and athletic department and this sounds just like the Da'Shawn Hand situation. Dalton loved VT and hasn't heard from Beamer much at all.
Granted that's second hand info, I'm not going to pretend like its gospel but it sounds too familiar.
But Hand wanted to focus on a major we didn't have...
That was the "excuse" he gave....
Yep, that's entirely just a public-facing reason, you're quite right. Fact is, our staff only has a couple of competent recruiters. Big Beams is beyond atrociously terrible at it, and an active hindrance to trying to rebuild the talent on the roster. It is what it is, but that's just never been a strength of his.
Sounds like Fedora got out of the office and went and sealed the deal while Franky did nothing... Defensive end, along with OT is our biggest position of need and we have ONE kid committed for this class. Pitiful
Playing time! Should be selling and apparently it's not
Yes, because a 4-5 UNC with little talent on defense doesn't have playing time as one of it's selling points...
...do you have any proof that "Franky did nothing" or are you just saying that because one 18 year old kid may not want to play for us?
I am the one who said that Frank hasn't contacted him. That's what I have heard.
Second/third hand and I'm sure as hell not pretending that I have sources:
..but that is what I've heard.
Then why don't you show us your "proof" of our ability to close on blue chip recruits? This is a results orientated business and our results have been awful in every facet lately.
Wow, that's actually not the stance I was taking on that. I was simply asking if you had proof of your claim.
Short of a wiretap and/or an electronic monitoring device strapped to Frank's ankle, it's going to be pretty much impossible to ever "prove" something like this.
Darius Fullwood, Trevion Hill are DE's
Fullwood will more than likely be a DT at Tech.
I know you're not saying this is gospel, but I'm calling total BS on this.
First of all, people at school and most even in the athletic dept -- let alone a couple of folks with "connections" to those people -- have no idea whether Beamer is or isn't talking to a recruit. Second, why would Beamer publicly talk multiple times in the last 2 weeks about this being a big time for recruiting -- and then not talk to one of the best players in the country who is very clearly interested in VT? Do you think Beamer ignored him when he was at VT games recently? Don't forget...VT wasn't even in the conversation until a couple months ago. Do you think Beamer woo'ed him to get into the conversation and then once VT was there, Beamer suddenly ignored him?
The only thing that makes sense to me about this is that it fulfills some people's need to rationalize not getting a recruit. The kid's from North Carolina -- if he chooses UNC, the most logical reason is that UNC is in North Carolina. Period. It might not be the actual or only reason, but it's the most logical.
But if folks want to believe that the hoof beats they hear behind them are zebras rather than horses, have at it.
I have no idea what happened behind the scenes, but it is exactly what we heard about Da'Sean Hand...so I figured it was worth sharing.
Your right that we have NO idea what happened behind the scenes. Call me crazy, but the simple fact that it was ALABAMA seems a far more logical explanation than a bunch of internet gossip.
There are too many actual confirmed stories about Beamer being an important recruiting "weapon" (see Michael Brewer) and closing the deal to think that he suddenly becomes a hermit when a blue-chip recruit is being recruited.
Alright man, if you want to shoot the messenger have at it.
Hand said "Bud Foster is my favorite coach, but I haven't talked with him in a while"
I posted it because it sounded like the same situation.
Where's petebuddywilson? I think he has some explaining to do...
can buzz start recruiting for football too? heck can he coach football too. JENGA......
#
J
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G
A
Why do I get the feeling we only get the high profile recruits that originally grew up planning to play for VT regardless of our recruiters?
I am as guilty as the next guy in thinking this is the year we start landing those guys. And, it still could be for this cycle, as many big-time targets remain. But, at this point, I am going to try to do a better job at not being surprised when history just keeps repeating itself. Sigh.
Done getting my hopes up in recruiting..only leads to disappointment. Can't close. Other schools (with less to offer) can close. Our coaches cannot close, just as we haven't been able to close in the 4th quarter on the field this year. We are a regional semi-power with an inability to close on the blue chippers. Harsh reality. Very disappointing..expect the "dominoes" we speak of to start falling the other way.
The decision is what it is, good or bad.
Another week of brutally negative commentary from everyone, which takes watching and enjoying football and turns it into misery (not the product mind you... listening to the reaction to it) is slowly turning me into this.
I guess I don't understand how people are supposed to react to all of this?
Between what's happening on the field, and what's happening off the field. What are people *supposed* to say? What are they supposed to talk about?
Shoot, at one point the talk was "Well things are rough on the field right now, but recruiting has turned a corner and we're going to close on this amazing class!" Now it's...what? I don't know.
Could it be that all the negative commentary is a result of...all the negative things that are happening?
I don't have an answer. All I know is that college football is supposed to be fun, yet for the Boston College game, I didn't even want to watch. Not because I was going to be upset because they lost, but because I am incredibly frustrated with the post-mortem complaint fest, even if the product deserves the complaints. I thought being a NY Rangers fan during "the drought" (no playoff appearances from 98 until the strike despite having the highest payroll in hockey) was miserable. But the last three weeks have really taken the taco.
Haha you just won't say it, will you?
And at least you have a cup
Red Velvet Ice cream cake? What were we talking about?
def get these points but can you blame us as fans? A 2nd year in a row where we are losing to teams and in ways we shouldn't be losing? To constantly come out flat, to then have to come back from 21-0 down in an offense that wants to control the ball?
Yeah it sucks seeing all the negative things on here ect ect but that's what happens at the end of a legacy/career.. when it rains it pours and in our case its definitely starting to get more cloudy.
I don't blame anyone. But, that doesn't change how it impacts my experience as a fan. And the malcontentedness makes writing on the team/reading on twitter/ etc much more miserable than the team itself not being good.
I have to agree with you, French. I hate to admit it, but TKP isn't even that fun this season anymore. I spent a few weeks away, came back and it was alright, but here's the same old stuff again.
TKP used to be a place for fun, intelligent, spirited football/VT discussion. Now it just feels like a place where everyone can come to either get into an argument, say "I told you so" repeatedly, or just go all negative nancy with "Frank's terrible, the team is terrible, fire everyone, stop playing football", etc.
Not saying that you can't have that sort of opinion about the team/coaching staff/games, but there was a time when these discussions were backed up with sound, reasoned arguments and evidence. Now I just see a lot of people with either "I heard this from someone..." or "it's bad because I say it's bad", etc.
It's honestly less fun to go on TKP now than it is to watch us lose.
I think the best thing everyone can do is step back, take a deep breath, and realize it's just a game. We can love it, hate it, have strong opinions about it, but life goes on. Debate, discuss, have fun! Pointing fingers, pointless arguments, not having a reasoned, well-thought out discussion just takes away from everything this site should be.
That is much more articulate than I could have said it, but you are dead on.
It is one thing to discuss the on the field product. You can look at the tape, identify strengths, weaknesses, and opportunities, and have a discussion. It is completely different when the entire conversation about something that can't be quantified. I don't know if Frank Beamer is a good recruiter or not. I don't know if he talks to players or not. And, unless he says so, or the player says so, and I see phone records and listen to how he talks with recruits, I will never know. So, to read people drone on endlessly that all those things are true, with zero empirical evidence with the exception that a kid didn't pick to come to VT, sucks my will to engage in any way, shape, or form in the experience.
I have said many times, I don't care if Frank is or isn't the head coach. I don't care if they win national championships or not. All I care about is spending my Saturday having a good time watching a game after a hard week of work. And, I can say with all honesty, that as bad as the team has been the last three weeks, listening to the reactions to the product has been 1000 times worse.
There's more than Zero Empirical Evidence WRT recruiting though, isn't there? I mean, let's be fair. This is the kind of thing that's becoming a regular occurrence for this program. Just like the outcome of a football game, recruiting is a results-based exercise. You either land the recruits that you target, or you don't.
Even in your film reviews, a lot of the time you can only speculate as to why so-and-so didn't pick up this man, or execute this technique, maybe the call was an XYZ instead of a PDQ...I don't see how recruiting is any different.
The results are there, they are empirical. Not discussing the results feels like an unreasonable request.
The reason the discussion around this football program isn't fun is because what's happening to this football program isn't fun. If we don't talk about it, then there's nothing left to talk about.
But your argument here is circular. Recruiting failures being evidence for recruiting failures isn't evidence at all. You also can't equate speculation with evidence. French states in his reviews when he's speculating.
The fact is, we just don't know what goes on behind the scenes. But like you said, discussing things can be fun, at least when there's some credibility to what's being stated. But when people dismiss things like, "Frank can't close the deal," that's what French is getting at (I think). Whoever makes those statements wasn't there, doesn't know, and can't claim any evidence. Empirical evidence is that which is actually observed, not what is simply believed.
I guess we will never see eye-to-eye on this.
When it comes down to these Very Highly Touted recruits, It's the job of the Head Whistle to be "The Closer." It's just how recruiting works, especially in 2014. With the advent of technology, the internet, social media, the country is a lot "flatter." than it used to be. Things are a lot more even than they were before, that's why the job of the Head Coach to finish the job to bring in the big time players is even more important.
The repeated failed attempts to reel in these blue chip recruits speaks directly to Franks inability to close the deal. You don't need to be there, or to be in the room. I don't know what that has to do with anything. The proof is in the results. Dalton didn't commit, Nandi didn't commit, Hand didn't commit...And that's just in the last 12 months off the top of my head. You are what your record says you are, and that's just off the top of my head.
The statement isn't "recruiting failures are evidence of recruiting failures." That's a deliberate mis-statement.
Here's the question: Is Frank Beamer good at closing the deal on Blue Chip Recruits?
Here's my personal conclusion: No.
Here's my evidence: The list of blue chip recruits, especially those reported to be heavy VT leans, that suddenly and seemingly inexplicably commit to someone else at the last minute.
Look, the recruiting performance is what it is. I think there's really no arguing with that. We can all come to different conclusions as to why. And we can use whatever evidence we choose to support it. What are your conclusions as to why our recruiting performance is what it is? What evidence do you use to support that? I'd seriously love to hear it.
But, please don't act like my conclusion is unsupported by evidence. The evidence is right there. You might disagree, but I'm not making up our inability to close on blue chip recruits.
Why is it the HC has to be the closer?
In my company, if I'm the CEO, I'm not the closer. My guys have a good guy that's good at closing, he's the closer.
He doesn't have to be, but there aren't many blue-chip recruits that sign with a school because they got assurances from a position coach.
The head coach carries much, much more weight than a coordinator or assistant when it comes to recruiting.
In 2014, the programs that are successful recruiters have Head Coaches who are closers. If your head coach isn't your closer and you're going up against a program whose is, then you're going to have a tough go of it...
It doesn't "have" to be this way, it just is. We can keep trying to do it a different way I suppose, and hope that at some point it will start working, but right now it's not. The results are right there .
I think head coaches being good at recruiting is wildly over-blown. Particularly after reading that bagman article that came out a few years ago.
Let me try to see if I understand the framework of the argument here. Just to recap, what French said is something I think is reasonable:
So at this point, we have a result that blue-chippers aren't coming to Tech, and a claim that Beamer isn't a good recruiter. French and I both made statements that we have no evidence to suggest how good of a recruiter Beamer personally is. Your response was that it's all about the ends; either we get recruits or not. Well, that's true, but it says zilch about Beamer specifically. We have no evidence of his interactions with recruits. That was French's premise. You didn't cite evidence, you cite a result and claim it is evidence. Honestly, if I've misunderstood your argument, please say so. It's not a "deliberate mis-statement." Your argument is basically post hoc ergo propter hoc. We have no causality here.
To the larger point, sure, the HC bears some responsibility for getting recruits. But he's not the only one, and recruiting never comes down to just one single factor, and as much as we hope to rationalize what these kids do, we can't. Think of it this way, too: if we're in the top 5 for any top recruit, such that we are one of his official visits, and he doesn't choose VT, that means 80% of top programs or their HCs failed. So is that because Beamer is a bad "closer" or because of larger factors? If the HC has to be the one to "seal the deal," then why do we have a Director of High School Relations and specific recruiting staff, and why is Stiney the Recruiting Coordinator?
Beamer is the titular head of the program, no doubt. But more often than not we hear recruits praising Beamer and their interactions with them. Maybe that's just diplomacy, but I still don't believe that we have any empirical evidence that specifically indicates that Beamer is a drag on the program in terms of recruits or that he is a bad recruiter. I don't necessarily claim that Beamer is specifically a boon to the program, because as much as his legacy is a plus, the nearing of the end of his career is probably a downside in some recruits' minds. My argument is more neutral: I do not believe there is evidence that Beamer is why we don't land blue-chippers. There is nothing to support that other than the result itself, which again is not evidence.
At this point we're arguing semantics. Whether or not the blame lies with Beamer not being a good recruiter or the coaches he is employing are not good at recruiting the fact of the matter is that Virginia Tech has become a school that cannot recruit top players routinely. That is a problem. We are not going to get back to the level we want to be if we cannot start closing the door on these guys. We are where we are now because we could not recruit talented depth towards the end of the Stiney era and that trend is continuing with these new guys.
We were the leaders all along for the #1 recruit last year until he dropped us completely. We whiffed on Nnadi. Now, we just missed Dalton after being the near unanimous favorite on signing day. Our lack of closing the deal is really negatively impacting the team we are able to put on the field. Imagine the DL we could have worn these players. I understand you can't get them all but right now we can't get any.
There is clearly some kind of dysfunction with our recruiting when schools like Decade of Dominated UVa or academic fraud UNC are pulling in top players annually and we aren't. Whatever we are doing as a staff isn't working. My only hope is that whatever it is that's wrong can be fixable by Beamer cause if we don't improve and soon we are in for some very dark years ahead and it won't be easy to climb out of the hole we would have dug for ourselves.
We know why he pipeline to UVA existed and I think we see the ending of that.
That we couldn't close this guy when he was all but signed at UNC a few weeks ago doesn't spell doom.
I'll wait until signing day before I count my chickens.
Very well stated. I fully agree that there is something...I don't want to say wrong...insufficient maybe? with what we're doing when it comes to recruiting. The end result is undeniable and it would be awesome to land some of these guys.
A broader thought, though, is that a lot of the "VT as the leader" perception comes from recruiting services and "experts" who make picks. The CB is probably more often right than wrong, but a lot of these guys follow the herd, as has been observed elsewhere in this thread. So what looks like a "VT is the leader" may be a bunch of conjecture and herd mentality. Some insiders are absolutely plugged in to what's going on. The rest I have begun to question.
The Da'Shawn Hand situation was definitely weird. He loved us, then decided he wanted a different major at an SEC school. That always sounded odd to me. Saban walks in and suddenly the game changes...
Hand didn't even drop us for the SEC schools, he dropped us for Michigan, and he said flat out the reasoning is that he plainly stopped hearing from our coaches during a time when other schools ramped up their efforts.
We are not going to get back to the level we want to be if we cannot start closing the door on these guys. We are where we are now because we could not recruit talented depth towards the end of the Stiney era and that trend is continuing with these new guys.
we got where we are now by recruiting guys that were not the most tallented. Not having a TOP recruiting class is not a new thing. its the Not winning 10 games a season that is the new thing. 2004 we had the best D in the country that year
FACTS:
2002- 45th ranked recruiting class 1- 5*
2003- 27th ranked recruiting class 0- 5*
2004- 56th ranked recruiting class 0-5*
we put some pretty damn good teams on the field with those classes.
point being we got to this level with out winning all these recruiting battles and closing the deals if rivals went back further id be willing to be that we had recruiting classes in the bottom 1/2 of the NCAA every year since 92 when the bowl streak started. Alot of people are losing site of what VT is how they got were they are and what is missing to get back to the top.
What we should be worried about right now more than DL recruits is OL. thats 1 major thing holding us back right now and IMO the real difference in us being a 10 win team again and being the .500 team we are now, we are taking care of that. we have recruited play makers all over the field we just need time to get them the ball and holes for them to run through.
I actually believe recruiting is a completely different game now than it was back then. The recruiting services are far more well rounded now than they were back then, and there were a lot more players that kind of fell through the cracks ranking-wise and we tended to be all over it when it happened. Recruiting budgets also weren't nearly as robust as they are now, and we utterly dominated the 757 region, which we all know now to be a hotbed of talent, but back then was a bit of a hidden secret, which built up the program.
Things changed. Schools now have the budgets to recruit nationally. These services have poured money into getting these rankings more accurate, and its showing. We're falling back because we've relied on finding the diamonds in the rough and coaching them up during a time where the diamond hunters have honed their skills thinning the herd. Our secret was exposed, we never adapted, and we're seeing the result now.
My entire take on the recruiting situation is based on this conclusion related to overall college football recruiting: In programs that are the most successful at recruiting, the role of the Head Coach is to be the "Closer." The entire infrastructure, the departments, the interns, all of that...it's all designed to get the Head Coach there at the end. Its then his job to make hit happen, and make the guy sign on the dotted line. If you disagree with this very basic premise, that's your prerogative. I think it's well-supported with evidence, when I look at all the programs around the country who are very successful at recruiting, this was always the case. If you have a list of programs who are very successful at recruiting without the head whistle being the "Closer," I'd love to see it. I just can't think of any. Certainly not as many as support this premise.
My entire conclusion is then based on that premise.
I never said "he's a drag on the program" I never even said he's "a bad recruiter." His methods are good for what they do: produce consistent low-top 25 classes. Its no small feat considering what Tech is and where it's located. He can't be a "bad" recruiter and end up with those types of results. But the difference between low-top 25 classes and top 15 and up classes is being able to land 5 star recruits and Very Highly Touted 4 Stars.
Those are the guys who Frank Beamer consistently struggles to close the deal on. That's my statement. The empirical evidence is the list of blue chip recruits who we were in the running for until the very end who then suddenly committed to someone else and left us all kind of scratching our heads. I'm quite honestly really struggling with the notion that this *isn't* evidence of an inability to close on these recruits. It's self-evident. It seems you even admit that, which only confuses me further.
If you want to get into why, I think that's a different discussion. I've got some ideas, but there honestly isn't much empirical evidence to support it. Which is why I didn't even make any statements to the effect. If you reject the premise of the role of HC in recruiting in 2014, that's also a valid topic of discussion and semi-related but I would argue also a different thread.
It's just this one thing...I don't know, I'm rambling at this point, because I don't even see how it's an argument. How do I prove an inability to land blue chip recruits beyond citing this and all the other examples of exactly that happening?
OK, I understand your context. Your initial reply was to French, who made comments about whether or not Beamer is a good recruiter and how we can't know either way. I pulled in some other statements ("bad recruiter," "drag on the program") not because you said them, but because that's what other people have argued on other threads and other forums. My only argument is that we can't know this, unless we're sitting at the kitchen table with a kid and his family while he looks over his offers and hear him say, "man, that Coach Beamer really wasn't who I hoped he'd be and he didn't sell it."
I agree with the general premise that we need to land some bigger fish. There's something lacking in our program overall in this regard, no argument there. My argument, as Alum noted, is largely semantic, but that's all it's intended to be. People, in general, tend to go off making assumptions about who's doing what behind closed doors and it's ridiculous unless those people were actually in the room. The HC has a big role, sure, but recruiting is so multi-faceted that I do think it's somewhat off-base for anyone to basically say that a recruit didn't pick VT solely because of Beamer's (in)abilities as a recruiter. My complaint about evidence is just that nothing you've said explains why, it only explains what is happening.
This is really a good debate. I really appreciate conversations like this. Maybe we don't see exactly eye to eye, but I think there's a fair amount of common ground. I'm really arguing nuance, admittedly. Maybe that's not productive :)
Of course it's not productive, that's the whole point, isn't it? Debating things on TKP is what people do instead of doing productive things :)
The problem with discussing the "why" is that there isn't any proof, like you said. So I don't think the discussion is destined for anything beyond the traditional back-and forth circular argument thing. One can only ever speculate. That said, I don't know that it really matters. For me, I'm a firm believer in the aforementioned "The role of the HC in recruiting, when you look at programs that recruit successfully, is to act as the closer." So my conclusion is very simple - the HC is not doing his job and sealing the deal. That's the "why." But, I admit that it involves accepting the initial premise. Why is the HC not closing well on Blue chippers? Well, that's a whole other ball of un-provable speculation.
Here's my thing, we see the progression and there's starting to be a theme: VHT recruit likes VT, things happen, the machine does its thing. Contacts Happen, visits happen, the process happens. It comes down to VT and _____. To me, that's all evidence that all the other people that you mention: assistants, cordinators, pompatuse of High School Colors, are doing their job - setting up the pins for big whistle to knock them down. Yet, routinely, it simply doesn't happen with these Blue Chippers. All of that, to me, is evidence of everyone doing their job and Beamer not being able to close. For me, it's walking like a duck, and quacking like a duck. It has feathers and hate chipmunks. I'm calling it a duck. I admittedly haven't had its dna tested to confirm this, but I feel good about my conclusion. If you don't buy that, or that thought process, evidence, and premise don't work for you, that's cool too. I'm good with where I am.
Now, why isn't Frank a good closer? Well, and this is admittedly pure speculation. I have no empirical evidence at all to support this, but I'm into my 3rd Lagunitas Little Sumpin' Wild, so screw it...
Ironically, I think the reason he's not a good closer is evidence in your very argument: I don't know that he thinks it's his job. Does he? I honestly don't know. You don't, and it seems a lot of our fans don't, so why would he? I wonder if he's not making a lot of the same arguments you are, internally or externally - why do we have this whole staff and all this Twitters and MyFaceSter if it's all up to me? That's why I pay you. Like Egbert said earlier "The CEO is the CEO, he pays the closer to Close." Well, I can't help feel that mentality might not work in college football in 2014. Because the other guys don't think that. They think like me, then you end up in a situation where you have Charlie Wiles going up against Jimbo Fisher, Bryan Stinespring going up against Nick Saban, and Torrian Gray going up against Urban Meyer to make that last minute push for a guy. Well, who do you think is going to come out ahead in those situations? Exactly who has in each one...
Again, that's all speculation, so let me bookend with the disclaimer again. That's just my not-so educated guess.
I like your comments and think you are very insightful, in fact sometimes I think you are reading my mind. But I'm having some difficulty with your thought that why we miss some big targets is because Frank isn't a good "closer".
Your words: "They think like me, then you end up in a situation where you have Charlie Wiles going up against Jimbo Fisher, Bryan Stinespring going up against Nick Saban, and Torrian Gray going up against Urban Meyer to make that last minute push for a guy. Well, who do you think is going to come out ahead in those situations? "
Well, Jimbo, Saban, and Meyer all offered Dalton but weren't even a finalist for his commitment. I'm just not sure that the reason for our recent misses on elite defensive front seven recruits is due to Frank not being a closer, as opposed to something else.
Nah, that's a pretty good explainatin of your POV.
How do we stack up against other programs of our tier?
At the end of the day we don't have a closer for 5* players.... we don't have that high profile coach that can relate to players or an assistant other than Bud to help and he probably is pulling his weight.
I agree with duffman 100% we have assistant coaches trying to close vs HC's at BIG schools. IDK if anyone remembers our own Isaiah Ford's recruiting announcement..He got a call from UF HC- Muschamp minutes before he was going to commit.. that's crazyyyyy that's pushing till the end.. Does VT do that I have no idea but we definitely don't hear about how VT tried to make a last pitch effort.
Ohh and another recruit we lost to UGA because Richt called McKenzie and swooped him last minute... Again I don't hear VT making those last minute pushes/calls. They might be happening but surely it seems like we just roll over and say oh well time to recruit the next 3* player and try to coach him up.
There's that story about how the VT coaching staff went down to Chesapeake last minute to convince Vince Hall not to go to UNC.
But now that was over 10 years ago.
Actually you're wrong yet again.
There is large body of empirical evidence to suggest that VT has been consistently well-above average, but not top-tier, at recruiting. And this year's class will probably be no different. Given VT's location and resources, I would say that if there was a way to measure VT's recruiting success, it would likely indicate that Frank Beamer's VT program has historically overachieved in its recruiting, not underachieved.
There is also actual anecdotal evidence that Beamer is involving with recruiting and is often cited by players as a selling point - most recently Michael Brewer. But there is little to no actual anecdotal evidence that the opposite is true...only opinion, conjecture, and rumor.
Did Beamer et al suddenly just get lucky a week ago when another highly recruited player they had been "targeting" at a position of need chose the Hokies?
This is right on so many levels. We are going to lose out on top level recruits because we are not top level, period. We are close, which IMHO is why we come close to landing the big ones. No matter what coach walks in here after Beamer, they can not offer what the Alabamas, LSUs, and the Ohio States of the world can provide.
I don't disagree.
I've been a DC Sports fan since birth and a Tech fan since I was accepted in '06. I've become numb to just about all DC sports and I'm approaching the same feeling with Tech and it sucks. I don't even really enjoy discussing it much anymore because there's too much hysteria.
That being said, I'm not trying to spread rumors about Frank - just a frustrating common thread between two massive recruits we whiffed on that (according to some people) hadn't heard from CFB/Bud.
Bleh.
I'm also a lifelong DC fan and am in the same boat. The next step after talking about the bad things that are happening to the teams you love is simply not talking about the teams you love anymore. It's even less fun than talking about the bad things.
I've said it before: the opposite of love isn't hate...it's apathy. At least love and hate are still emotions.
Apathy is an awful feeling. I almost miss getting my hopes up, having them dashed and being despondent.
Thank you Washington Redskins
Personally, I'm always going to have more fun watching football, than talking or writing about it.
I think your state of TKP assessment is a bit hyperbolic. (Also, it seems like complaining about complaining, which is complaining.) This has been a long season. I think there's a more negative tone around here, and that probably has to do with the fact we've been a pretty mediocre football team these last 2.75 seasons. Everyone is going to deal with losing differently. As long as people are being civil to each other, I'm not going to pass judgement on how they should handle being fans of a bad football team. I read plenty of rational and intelligent discussions about football in the film reviews, etc... I mentioned this before, but if you're motivated to hang out on here and don't want to deal with the gloom and doomers, start a thread and drive a new conversation. If you want to take a break, that's fine too and may be the best thing for you. Honestly, I am looking more forward to basketball season than our next football game, and that's a completely new feel for me.
I can't remember when he said it (either during his basketball coaching search, or after James Johnson was fired), and I am paraphrasing, but Whit said something like it's just a game, but we might as well play to win.
We love you Joe.
Exactly that Joe, thanks for offering that.
But honestly this whole argument about being negative is pretty dumb; we're upset about something we love passionately and our feelings are warranted. Obviously there's more doom than is probably fun to read, but it's kind of hard to be bubbly and all smiles when we haven't won a game in five weeks and we're missing recruits. Not saying that we should have truly expected Dalton to pick us but it still doesn't make things easier.
There's already so many people that comment just for upvotes, or comment nothing but "go team go" type shit so they can be added to the TKP staff. I think it's refreshing to read some unfiltered, raw reactions.
3 years, including this year. Just saying.
I have to agree with you. I don' t have an answer either. I do, however, get tired of coming in to work on Monday or Friday morning and listening to my coworkers gripe fest about how bad we suck or how pitiful we look. I really don't have anything to counter their negativity, but that doesn't mean that I want to hear it. It makes me just not want to watch or take interest, not because of the struggles of the team, but because of the negativity surrounding their lack of success.
I want our football team to succeed. I want the clay target team to succeed. But the reality is that we're not going to all the time and currently we aren't really doing much of it at all. I don't like it, but I could always just choose to follow another team. That's what 75% of fans do anyway. There's more Alabama fans in my corner of the state than there are VT fans. I'm sure it has nothing to do with their recent success. I understand the frustration. But I'm a Hokie. When my team struggles, it hurts. I can analyze all I want, but I can't really affect the outcome. I offer my support, for what it's worth. Hopefully we return to success soon and everything plays out well. In the meantime, GO HOKIES, and here's to Dalton picking the good guys.
"Don't complain even when complaints are merited" feels like an unfair request to make of a fan base.
I understand that it isn't fun...but it's the reality of the situation right now. Things are bad. Not talking about thing being bad isn't going to make things any less bad, is it? If anything, I'd argue that the opposite is true, pretending that things aren't bad just sets everyone up for worse falls as things continue to be bad.
I know that's kind of confusing, but talking/complaining about bad things that are happening as they're happening is how people process and deal with them. If you don't do that, you're just kind of bottling everything up...but everyone's going to crack eventually, and when one does how bad the outcome is is a direct result of how effectively they managed all of the bad things that happened prior.
Not all people process negative events by complaining about them. I would argue that most successful people aren't particularly interested in catharsis.
OT beer geek> hm. Catharsis. Cool word. Good name for a big, thick highly alcoholic beer? think a cross between an imperial barrel aged stout and a huge scotch ale. /OT beer geek
I really like the sound of this
The alternative, which we are not far from is worse: apathy.
I'm a Red Sox fan, so the post mortem last year as they underperformed was brutal. Game after game. A couple of wins, some hope, then another losing series. It sucked.
Then you get to August and you just don't care anymore. VT fans aren't far from that, both for this season (if we lose to Duke, there won't be much "pre or post mortem" for the Wake game) and for the end of Beamers career.
I don't like where we are either, but it can get worse. When nobody cares.
I have to agree with you, I love TKP but hate the whineys.
Agree Duffman.
This recruiting class and 2016s are HUGE. These are the players that will be upperclassmen when the leadership changes happen.
The cupboard can't be completly empty when the next coaching staff comes in
Maybe they're supposed to realize two things:
1) It's only a game. We're all still alive, still have great things to look forward to, etc. We all want to win as much as the next guy, but don't let it ruin your year if they don't.
2) These are 18 year old kids. They're trying to make the decision that they feel is best for them. I, frankly, support them all regardless of their decisions because it's a big choice to make and it's their choice, not mine.
Those two things will make a lot of people feel better, I think.
Umm, that's easy.
1. Winningest Active Coach
2. Bowl Streak
3. Beating UVA
Same crap they always tell us to talk about
OK, let me try: "I sure hope we can find a way to win two more games to continue to beat UVA and keep that active bowl streak alive!"
Crap, I kind of did it again, didn't I? :(
That sounds about right to me
Totally agree
Agree that is wears on you.
We got Trevion Hill (4 star- stud), Darius Fullwood on the flip from Ky, still in it for Sweat, Gaines, maybe Darrell Taylor. I quote Butthead when I say to everyone- 'settle down Beavis'
Dee Fulwood is a tackle for us. I wouldn't count on flipping Darrell Taylor, we lost him explicitly because our coaching staff thought he was a lock and didn't recruit him anywhere hear as intensely as UT and their head coach.
We lost Ferrell for the same reason, and we're unlikely to get any other DE but Gaines. Unless UNC offers him, then he's gone. We have an unbelievable need at DE, and falling to close on any guys that were considered huge tech leans shortly before their announcement is nothing sort of utter failure. I'm not generally a negative guy, but we're not a program that can easily climb out of a talent hole. Nor are we likely to do so this time.
What about Joshua Nijman?
Currently at Fork Union. He listed by 24/7 as a 4* DE, 6'6" 265lbs. Looks pretty solid coming off the ball in his senior highlights. Anyone know anything more about Nijman?
He looks very, very good, and iirc, could play either side of the ball for us in addition to being a very very heavy Tech lean. Likely a DT rather than OL or DE, but Searles might have something to say about that.
Nice. Regardless, I think he'll be a solid recruit for either side.
Actually, he was recruited and expected to be an OT.
Even better.
Just want to clear something up...
Joshua Nijman is being recruited as a DT. He plays both ways @ Fork Union so OL is not out of the question in the future, but VT is recruiting him as a DT. We're currently a strong #1 for him. He is rated the #1 prep DT by 247, FWIW
You are probably thinking of verbal D'Andre Plantin who also plays OT/DT for his H.S. and is being recruited by VT as an OL.
You are correct, thank you. Long day obviously.
Yea this decision looks like it's going to hurt, but we'll get over it.
And yes this year is frustrating too, but I'm still optimistic with our young talent and still trust Bud.
I'm probably naive but I'm at a "it's always darkest before the dawn" outlook right now. I hope others have the same mentality and even if we are 4-7 that everyone will pack the house and be as loud as we can be for UVA
I posted it in the TKP Therapy Session thread, but here's Aaron Eckhart with some words of advice.
Serious question real quick before the official decision: has there been someone who last minute chose the Hokies after the CBs seemed to be pointing elsewhere? Forgive me for being so new to actually paying attention to recruiting. Just trying to stay somewhat optimistic here
optimism? boooooooooooooooooooo!
We had an OT commit last year named Brady Taylor who was CB'd to go to Kentucky. He ended up committing to us on his decision day... then flipping a couple of weeks later when Grimes quit and he got his dream OSU offer.
This is scary. UNC very well may be facing sanctions for all of Dalton's years of eligibility. The sooner Frank retires, the sooner we can get in a coach that can recruit with the times.
sure and have player running around VT acting like Jameis.. the way jimbo is sticking by jameis is a little sickening.. we all know jameis will drop out after the season is done and go to the NFL.. If Jameis were at VT he would have been gone weeks ago.
If there is one thing I really admire Frank about is finding boys from HS and helping them become respectful men. Frank runs a clean program and will not put up with crap, that's what makes VT special.
...Marus Vick
...Cody Jornell
All I'm saying is CFB has had his share of wtf moments with discipline.
true, very true but marijuanna,stealing crab legs (in today's world) isn't a huge huge issue.. rape, assualt, felony things are.
When the michael holmes thing came out he was off the team with no contact in hours and then once the actual results came back he was gone for good.
Both were also eventually dismissed from the team. Jameis hasn't been.
i like the optimism but its over for this staff, clear em out and rebuild. whats it gonna hurt? will we be bad for a few years? yes but arent we already..... i see no fire in these coaches every week its the same ole message and we should all be tired of it. we deserve better football and this staff cant produce it. if Whit can revive the basketball staff in 6 months what do u think he could do with our football facilities. im burned out by this staff ive sat there through rain (matt ryan bc game) shine, (jmu game) night (miami) and nothing changes these guys cant finish the job thats why we are a laughing stock on the national stage. frank is great give him a 50 yard line box seat for life just dont give him a headset anymore.
Which JMU game are you talking about?
Wow.... it's actually pretty comical how quickly things change. After the OSU win, everyone was super pumped about the team and Beamer's contract extension and the recruiting class and all that. Since then, we've added to the class, including a flip from an SEC commit, while in the middle of a rough year that we all knew wasn't going to be great simply due to inexperience, with injuries piled on top.
And then to say that "these guys don't have any fire." Wow. Go tell that to Foster. Go tell that to Loeffler. Go tell that to Searels. They'll give you plenty of fire. Even Beamer when he's not in front of a mic and camera. I'm with French here. The fans are making football season far less enjoyable than it should be.
Sooooo... We aren't allowed think any differently and voice it? We can only voice the positives?
Well, I just think that it's important we place blame where it really lies. or both the performance on the field, and performance in areas like recruiting, you blame the people who deserve it. By which, of course, I mean...the Fans :)
Just in case you didn't see it the first time.
I hear you, but that night we beat OSU....when everyone on FB and Twitter and TKP all celebrated together and the entire college football world acknowledged our greatness....that was awesome.
This is the inverse of that joy.
fans of losing teams tend to do that.
We flipped TWO SEC recruits if I remember correctly. Fullwood and Clark.
Just a little more fuel to the fire.
When Frank does step down, expect what you're saying to happen. This is not to be negative - just reality.
The only exception would be Bud and may a couple of his assistants (Wiles and Gray come to mind).
The new coach (whoever that may be) is going to bring his guys with him.
I would bet the house that 75% of our staff will be different in 3 years.
I'm not one to hop on the "sky is falling" train, but I do think it's worth asking, at what point do we keep being optimistic before this program is driven into the dirt? This isn't an isolated incident. This is a problem year in and year out and nothing is ever changed. Even if he shocks the world and commits to VT in 10 minutes, the fact that it came THAT close to us and a team with that many problems would bother me. I desperately want to be optimistic for the future but in the grand scheme of things, nothing has been changed since the problems started.
Having a top-25 recruiting class isn't exactly driving the program into the dirt.
And actually a hell of a lot has changed since the problems started. New offensive coaches and an AD committed to actually supporting the program and opening up the checkbook for new recruiting positions are pretty major changes. Unfortunately, it takes a while to rebuild when you strike out on two consecutive offensive recruiting classes ('10 and '11).
And after taking a quick peek outside I can indeed continue to report that the sky is in fact not falling.
You're right, but I also said BEFORE it's driven into the dirt. You have to think that eventually losing or average seasons will catch up to the recruiting side of things if nothing is ever fixed.
TechHokie13, I love ya man, and I love the program as much as anybody ever has. I'm not a downer (really I've turned this season into a comic book in my own mind), but at some point the optimism is lost.
Realize that it doesn't matter to some people that we beat Ohio State and have a solid recruiting class coming in (and another in 2016 hopefully), but the reality is that we've lost to some sorry football teams this season, and that is what stands out. Yeah, we were all pumped after the OSU win, but not just because we beat OSU. We were pumped because of what we THOUGHT was going to be the start of something great. Something we hadn't seen in a decade. But instead, we followed it up with losses to unranked chumps Boston College, Pitt and Miami. That's what has been the focal point this season.
I understand that being a downer and coming to TKP to sob isn't appealing and really is kinda lame in my opinion, but at this point the OSU win means practically nothing when it comes to this season and the coaches, and recruiting isn't going to make everything better at the end of the day. My point is, a lot of users on this site aren't going to care about what little things have been accomplished this season, and in my opinion something (I don't know exactly what) should change in regards to the program.
/steps off soapbox
Even if he shocks the world and commits to VT in 10 minutes, the fact that it came THAT close to us and a team with that many problems would bother me.
Dude he's from NC, if he switches over to us I'd be thrilled, not one bit disappointed. That should actually say something about us, not them in the scenario you are talking about
Oh believe me, I'd be thrilled too! I just think it's something to consider when we talk about all of the current issues in the program. The whole home-state, out-of-state thing is overblown in my opinion though.
Yeah, geography doesn't matter any more in recruiting. It's like "Buying American." It's a global economy, that doesn't make sense any more. Now, every game is on TV. Every coach is recruiting you. Your parents are a Facetime away.
It still matters. Not as much as it used to, but it still matters. Look at almost every Div 1 roster if you don't think so.
Sick downvote guys
The perfect gif response.
I've been sitting on the idea for a couple hours, just waiting for the right moment lol
Gee I wonder who DV'd it?? /saracastica
I wish my little girl would 'let go' of her obsession with that movie.
I was really unimpressed. Bottom tier Disney movie.
I mean, as far as kids' movies go, I didn't think it was that bad. But a man can only take so much ya know?
I mean I didn't hate it, but Disney has done much better.
Agreed. Best part of the movie by far was the soundtrack. Story was okay.
I have a 9 and 5 y.o daughters.
I am with you man.
My wife complained I disappear into my office in the evening and I just hold up the appropriate Disney movie case. Case won.
FWIW, I wasn't the one downvote here, just FYI. This was actually a pretty clever response and I probably shouldn't care about turkey legs as much as I do lol
Got you covered, bud. I think I dropped 6 or 7 on you just now, in various threads. No idea why people are piling the dvs on you for pointing out an improper vote. If people are going to be free to DV opinions, you'd think they'd at least be willing to allow you to protest their actions with a simple acknowledgement like you did, without punishing you for that too.
'Preciate it!! Haha
I think that it takes a long time to turn around an aircraft carrier. When Leoffler was hired, I thought he deserved three seasons (if not four) to build his own offense. If players give up and we get schlacked in these next three games, then I will be more inclined to send him packing. If we show good fight, play Duke tough, beat WF and UVA, then I'm tempted to give him at least one more year. These next three games will tell us a lot about the direction of the program.
2010 jmu 21 vt 16 5 days after boise state beat us on a national stage with a lesser team
Just wondering how that game fits under the "shine" category
Edit: I meant this and my other comment as more of a joke/poking fun. Not trying to cause a hubbub
The only VT game I've ever left early. Mrs. GoKart was already sick and standing out in that rain and cold was only going to make it worse. Nothing was shining that day.
One of these days we will hit on a huge 5 star recruit... we just need that one to turn the tables for us.... Looks like we will have to continue waiting
Yeah, if only we gotten Tyrod Taylor or David Wilson or Kendall Fuller. Those guys would have been great here. It's a shame we can't recruit anyone
David Wilson SHOULD have been a 5*
Don't forget Macho. He tore up my hs, so naturally I was happy to see him play for the Hokies
I'm sitting here like "it's 3:46!!! WHAT'S HIS DECISION???!!!!"
3:50.....
Also, Jesus why am I getting so worked up?
I am the lamest. I'm still sitting here waiting for the official announcement before I give up.
He officially gone. Damn
FUCK
He gone....
The lure of UNC is strong for those in-state kids.
Why is everyone so worked up right now? Did he make his decision already? The website that was supposed to have the stream hasn't shown me anything. Am I missing something?
Internet in the school apparently wasn't working
How does an entire school lose internet? That's outrageous.
reason enough to rethink my decision to stay in that state if you ask me...
Welp, that sucks. Good luck to him at UNC though.
Okay Josh Sweat the red carpet it is there! Stay in-state and help out our Hokies!!! Tim you too!
Best of luck to him.
Good luck, Jalen.
He made the best decision for himself and his family. Don't get down in the kid or the program. He could always flip.
Let's move on the the next guy. In Bud I trust.
In case you're wondering. I had a beer right before writing this. Drinking really is the answer :)
I didn't see a decision anywhere but rivals has his committed to UNC
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Jalen-Dalton-151776
Damn, tough break for us. Best of luck to Jalen in his college career; I hope he is confident in his decision and that he is doing what is best for him. I just hope he goes 0-4 (or 0-5) against the Hokies :)
I hope he goes 0-3, leaves early for the NFL and starts getting fat checks before any injuries (which I hope don't happen)
Good point. I'd be OK with that, too.
How the eff does a school that is in the middle of an academic scandal land a player like Dalton?!?!
However - Best of luck to you, Jalen.
One last thing,...
In the words of the Dukies: GO TO HELL CAROLINA GO TO HELL!
He may not be going there to play school
Well shoot
There goes our best chance with McGirt
Welp, Best of luck!
PS... When NCAA sanctions come down... if they do we might have a Jalen Dalton who flips his LOI to VT.
Although he is an early enrollee it would have to come sonn...like within weeks I think.
Stay calm and
The only thing I would be less likely to hold my breath for in most situations than a highly-touted DL comitting to VT is the NCAA actually doing something worth a damn to someone who so obviously deserves it....
NCAA actually doing its job?
Does anybody have a timetable for any NCAA action?
He is enrolling early after all
If I'm not mistaken it has to be handed out by end of spring ball/start of Fall of 15.. so best case is that the NCAA hands the sanctions out in a couple weeks
So we are waiting on a large and ineffective bureaucratic organization to do the right thing in only a couple of weeks... looks like there's an overwhelming chance this ship has sailed.
Now onto Sweat and anyone else we can persuade...
We didn't get a kid that wasn't coming to us a month or so ago.
Everyone wants Frank's head because he can't recruit.
We almost flipped this kid away from UNC.
Almost doesn't count for ANYTHING in football, recruiting or play. And we've already lost multiple in-state highly ranked DL to out-of-state programs, which is 100% on Frank and Bud.
We have never gotten all the highly ranked in state guys. We will not get everyone we really want.
We have alwYs lost guys we really wanted.
All teams do this.
It's about the kids you DO get, not about the ones you do not.
We've landed exactly one highly rated DE since Jason Worilds that's contributed significantly at his position. One. Just saying.
I hear you say we've landed one highly rated DE that's become a significant contributor.
I have no idea how many 4 or 5 star Defensive line guys we got in that time frame.
Any idea how many didn't contribute much?
Well you can make a claim for Wyatt Teller/Zack McCray/Corey Marshall in that they were highly recruited, but got moved to cover for our other hilarious recruiting depth misses, or (Zack McCray) just weren't as good as advertised.
Jarontay Jones was a 4* on some sites, but he wasn't capable of competing at the level of our current DEs somehow and washed out.
That's actually all of them for the last 8 years.
E: Before Worilds, we didn't land a single 4 or 5* DE since at least 2002, which is as far as 247's ratings go back.
James Gayle?
JR Collins?
Ken Ekanem?
Corey Marshall?
Dadi?
Worilds was a 4 star - the above are 3/4 star and contributed a lot IMO.
Gayle, Collins, Dadi were not 4*s. Dadi is good for sure. I mentioned Corey Marshall directly, he hasn't really done anything as a DE, he got moved because we couldn't recruit DT either.
Edit again: To be clear, Ek is the 4* I referred to originally.
Every god damn time =(
Unfortunately Sweat's gonna do it to us too. No doubt in my mind he'll be a Nole.
Agreed.
Anyone that is getting excited for Sweat might want to pump the breaks.
sweat would be awesome, but literally the only thing we can sell over them at this point in time is the 'staying at home' aspect.
F$U touts a path to the NFL and a legitimate shot to play for national titles. no shame in picking them.
And don't forget all those free crablegs
shit, man, i love crab legs too.
I think Sweat is coming to Athens, GA this weekend. There's still a chance he could come to one of my schools.
I will be both happy and sad if he commits to UGA.
BALLS! Looks like we are back to coaching 'em up.
As far as I'm concerned Beamer needs to be shown the door if we don't at least get Sweat or Settle. The only legitimate reason to keep him around I've heard in the midst of the shitstorm of this and the past few seasons is to keep recruiting intact because of all these high-profile recruits we're "in on." And I agreed with that, but we're still failing time and time again in that department and today is just business as usual. I appreciate all he has done for us but it's completely obvious by now that this program is entering the "Bobby Bowden end years" phase of mediocrity and I think these recruits (and other program's recruiters whispering in their ears) know that. This program needs a change and if this recruiting cycle ends in complete failure, again, that change needs to come immediately. I trust Whit to do what's necessary.
Not even complete one recruiting cycle with the changes made and everyone wants Frank's head.
I'm not sure what people expect, except perhaps the moon and the stars?
The changes made are clearly showing no dividends. Look, noone expected the NC this year, but the way this season has gone is completely unacceptable, whether the new staff has "had time to settle in and get their players" or not. We are in LAST PLACE with three weeks to go and we didn't even play any of the ACC "big guns." There have been zero signs of improvement. ONE ACC win against a dumpster fire UNC team that has also severely underachieved. ONE. I don't think multiple ACC wins is wanting "the moon and the stars."
I don't think it's unreasonable to be calling for Frank's head. We have severely underachieved for three seasons in a row now and gotten worse each year, with no improvement in sight. Again, the reason to keep him around amid the rapidly sinking ship that is this program has been to wait and see on these recruiting classes the last couple years and see if he can right the ship with them, and so far that has been an absolute disaster. Unless you're complacent with everything this team has been since the 2012 Sugar Bowl, Beamer should be gone if he can't close out these last few high-profile targets.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that signing day is still 2 1/2 months away. There is ALOT that could happen between now and then. I'm sure some here simply can't take any solace in this, but I suspect that the VT coaches are not going to be drifting away on this kid just yet and that it might not take too much "news" to cause reconsideration. It's certainly not unprecedented.
Dalton is enrolling in January
The same hopeless empty hurt feeling that I remember from Stephone Anthony, Korren Kirven, Deshawn Hand, and Derrick Nnadi. Dalton is so much more confusing to me after seeing Dadi and Ekanem going crazy vs UNC this year, his chance to play and make an impact early and the NCAA sanctions coming with FAKE CLASSES! Rereading that sentence makes my head want to explode! I'm so over getting excited for big time recruits we cant close on but I'm sure I'll be back for more agony/euphoria for Tim Settle and Josh Sweat. Good luck at UNC Dalton here's to you going 0-4 against the Hokies and good luck making it to a bowl game with those sanctions but hey you might get a ring for not playing in the ACC championship game... (Broken hearted school girl rant over.) But who knows sighing day flips always happen for us mostly on the bad side looking at you Javon Harrison, but theres always a chance it happens to us on the good side, thank you Isiah Ford.
I'll just say this...
The coaches HAVE to start closing the deal on these recruits. Our depth sucks and we are getting to the point where we really cannot afford to keep whiffing like we have been. Last year, we whiffed on the 2 major defensive pieces we needed, and this year we've already whiffed on one. And these are at positions of need. At this point, depth-wise, we must close on Sweat and Settle. If we don't, plainly put, things aren't really going to improve that much going forward.
This.
Regardless of whether or not this kid was considered a UNC lean until a couple of months ago, the fact remains that VT targeted him, spent resources recruiting him him, and failed. VT has got to land some of these recruits. Teams with no winning pedigree (i.e. UVA and UNC) are able to close this kind of talent. So there is some reason why VT continually can't.
I would say without getting both Sweat and Settle (and right now I feel like even pulling 1 might not be likely), our defense might be a nightmare in the coming years, because we have no depth whatsoever, and quite frankly the players we have out there now are not even coming close to getting it done
I agree with u, I still fully support Frank and Co, but they gotta have talent to win. Everyone does, if not we just end up in the middle of the mess that is the ACC. We will never be a team of 4/5 stars but we have no depth on either line right now. And continue to miss and miss on guys that could change that quickly is not going to turn this team around. Sorry, I just dont see Sweat or Settle coming here, and DeBerry yeah right. These are the in-state players, the ones we HAVE to have. These are the Vince Hall's, Chris Ellis, Xavier Adibi's that we got to come here and win titles. If we strike out on these guys, that will basically be the end of Beamer. That sounds drastic, but this defense is getting destroyed right now and there are no players really in the wings to get this thing straight.
And then there's the offense...
Time to start hoping Beamer and company gets it together for Sweat and Settle... And the NCAA drops the hammer on UNCheat before signing day! (one can dream)
If I were Tim Settle or Josh Sweat, I would much rather play for Tech over FSU as far as making it to the NFL goes. At Tech, you will be the talk of the town, ESPN commentators will focus on how you are the best on the team, and you will have a chance at making All-ACC honors as a true freshman (see Bucky Hodges). Kam Chancellor, Daryll Tapp, and Brandon Flowers would never have had a chance at the NFL if they went to FSU. Kyle Fuller would not have been a first round draft pick if he had less years of game film than if he went to a blue-blood program. If I'm a recruit who thinks through decisions, I go to Tech. I'll play from day one, have the defensive scheme centered around myself, and then declare for the draft. (or I could commit to FSU, have 1-2 less years of game film, and be [potentially] out-shined by other players)
Derrick Nnadi played as a true freshmen at FSU. Good kids want to play for good football teams. To the winner goes the spoils, all that jazz. I still think we land Settle though. Sweat will probably go to FSU.
I am not even that disappointed as I usually am only because we came into the picture very late for him. Now I will say this, if we don't get either Settle or Sweat, then our depth is going to be hurting and recruiting needs to be improved. No reason why we shouldn't land at least one of those guys.
I wouldn't hold my breath on this and I really don't care anymore bc changes need to be made within the program, but If I'm not mistaken, a player is granted release from a LOI if sanctions are placed on his school after signing. So, technically he could sign his letter of intent and then leave if the sanctions are handed down after..again, I could be mistaken.
So you're saying there's a chance...
Somebody throw that GIF up there. I can't access it at work.
He could always flip in a couple weeks like Chris Clarke... right..? Right guys...?
How you like them apples Mike Farrell?!?
Pure speculation on my part:
But couldn't it simply be a matter of the kid wanting to play on a team where he knows the team can score points but needs help on defense? Since he is a 5* DE, he probably figures that his addition will upgrade the UNC "D" and that will mean more wins for the team he will be joining. With a possibility of playing for a division championship.
Everyone knows that VT's brand is in the "D". So VT will win some games, but usually despite the lack of an offense. I mean look at this year and the two previous years for VT.
Why would a talent kid who plays "D" want to play for a team where he believes will not win many games because said team cannot score enough points. Therefore he would be better served joining a team that can score points but needs more talent on the "D". So there ends my theory.
I wish the kid all the best and hope he has a great collegiate career, except when playing against VT. Best wishes Mr. Dalton. I just hope CFB can pull out a great class despite this setback.
UNC isn't exactly lighting up the scoreboards this year offensively. They're also deep in the middle of an athletic and academic scandal that will very likely at least end them up on probation and we're still losing out on top players to them.
When you have top players at positions of need for your school at the part of the game you're supposed to be good at going to schools that are openly in the news for scandals with the NCAA investigating and CNN mocking there is just something fundamentally flawed with what you're doing. This honestly should have been a slam dunk for us, so what the heck happened? Hell, he saw us go into their house and beat them in front of a half filled stadium and somehow that made more of an impression on him in unc's favor than Lane on a Thursday night. Huh?
Warning much of this thread has achieved SQUIRREL status
thread in summation:
Hokies think Dalton a lock
Dalton chooses UNC
meltdown
French/Rocket makes astute comment regarding state of TKP
Landing 5 star recruits legitimate gripe but not necessarily something that is new
unnecessary downvotes
Parents tired of kid's obsession with Frozen
Comments back on track
I need fernleyhokie summaries of all meandering threads. It could be the TKP version of Cliff's Notes!
thanks! I'll try to keep up but I may miss a few. squirrels are unpredictable
I wish you guys would picking on us squirrels!
Just checking on on the meltdown :)
In the future, I would rather not see any of ya'll rag on other fan bases for their reactions to games or recruits if everyone here is going to fall into doom and gloom, fire everyone type responses over missing the first big target of the year. Especially one that 2.5 months ago we had 0 chance with. Carry on.