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Although the article focused on UVA, let's not pretend this kind of thing doesn't happen elsewhere. I personally don't know a thing about Virginia Tech's handling of sexual assault though this article paints a very damning picture of UVA and I'd find it hard to believe that we'd handle things like that. Regardless, as hard as it was to read that, I may have to make my daughter read it or something similar before she takes that step to college.
I can't speak for all types of students on Campus but I do know the Women's Center on campus takes these things very seriously and can bring in an investigation rather quickly. We do better then this I know that!
The police also alert the entire campus if something happens. However I'm sure not everything gets reported, its such a terrible situation I hope nothing even close to this happens at our school
I know [EDIT: second hand] that VT takes these things very seriously. I was the founding father of a fraternity chapter. One year after I left I learned that a brother that was a freshman my senior year had been expelled for sexual assault. I was stunned as we were always careful at our parties. We had 5-6 brothers sober at every party basically on security keeping things from getting out of control and making sure people were not obliterated drunk and were fine to walk home or had a ride as they left. The story the guys told me was that the brother and the girl went back to his dorm in a DD ride. Things happened, I won't pretend to know what went on behind closed doors, but at the start of the next year she came forward and accused him of sexual assault. In this case it was his word against hers and he was thrown out. Based on this UVA article, VT hands out death penalties compared to UVA.
Yep, Risk Management in VT Greek Life is no joke. God help your organization if you got caught with a keg
This was entirely through the university, not Greek system.
The really unfortunate truth is that this type of thing happens at campuses across the nation far too frequently. One incident is too much, but this occurs with regularity and has for decades now. There's no one answer to eliminate the problem, it's a multi-layered social issue. Hopefully it ends one day.
This is very sad and disgusting. Imagine this being your daughter. I can't believe someone could do this to another person. This old money, arrogant, "My family is such and such so I'm better than you / you can't touch me" attitude is a big reason why we hate UVa.
Don't take this personally, but I've never liked the idea of "imagine if this happened to your daughter" The statement as is sounds like people are only disgusted with rape when it happens to someone they know, but we need society to be disgusted with rape culture in general for change to occur.
He used that phrase for the same reason it is often used - many people have trouble (or refuse to) connecting with a personal tragedy unless it impacts someone very close to them. Once it does, their perspective changes drastically.
Yes, people should be empathetic regardless of personal connection, but often that is what it takes for them to be so. That's why the example is used. In an effort to give people perspective.
Agreed, but the only way for that to happen is for people to have empathy. There are so many problems across the world that people don't take the time to think about or otherwise consciously choose to ignore. If everyone took one second to say, "imagine if [this problem] affected me in some way, imagine if I felt the way that person felt" - then we would develop exactly this mentality. There are horrible things that happen and the only way they will stop is if good people make it stop.
I think that many see it's disgusting regardless. But when it happens to someone you know or love, you develop something more than disgust. You feel hurt for them. You may develop anger at their assailant. That sort of connection gives more passion to find a solution than just disgust. We often don't grasp the full effect of injustice in the world until it affects us and we have to respond.
Well put. There is certainly an analytical and emotional level to all of this.
Agreed and I'd even take your comments a step further to say that people in general are more likely to take action, even if it's just a change in attitude, if they can personalize it by mentally projecting the horrific event on a loved one.
At the risk of being downvoted, I would also suggest that most people have a very finite reservoir of empathy. I certainly know I do. Maybe I'm wrong, or look at it differently than others, but there's hurt and pain and injustice everywhere, and if I did not steel myself at times, I would be "I haz a sad" guy all the time, and I don't want to be that guy.
Edited to add: on the other hand, I wouldn't try to cover-up or hide bad actors in these kinds of situations, and certainly would do what I could to make things better. So [redacted] those guys if those things are not only happening, but being hidden, too.
The example we all can relate is very timely - the shooting at F$U last night. Prior to April 16th 2007, nearly all of us would have read the news and thought something along the lines of - 'Ah, that's awful. What a shame...' Then we would have gone on with our day.
As Hokies, though, whenever we see something like that occur now, we immediately feel a sense of kinship and empathy for the campus. We know because we've experienced it in a place we hold dear. So it impacts us much stronger. The same holds true for any other type of incident, whether assault, rape, domestic violence, etc. It gives us a new perspective.
I don't take it personally. I get what you're saying. I don't view it differently whether it be someone I know or not. I think it is certainly awful and disgusting no matter who this happens to, obviously. But I will say this...if it happened to the daughter of the president of UVa, it would certainly be handled differently. And you are right, it should be handled and viewed the same whether it's your daughter or someone that you don't even know. It's simply inhumane. I do respect your comment and agree with what you are saying.
Wow.
Having a young daughter, this article will make you take notice.
It will make you take notice with a son as well. I will share this with my HS Jr son with the expectation that he do the right thing.
I agree. You can't just say, "I must make sure my girl is protected." You also have to say, "My son will be taught that this is not right, and to never give into peer pressure to do something like this, just because you want to fit in."
In that case, pursuant to my first comment below, I shall raise my son well enough to know not to participate in these activities.
NOT having a young daughter, or children at all, it makes you take notice. I can't imagine the fear those of you who are parents feel as you watch your kids grow up and make their own decisions. You hope and pray they make good ones, but know that many times they won't.
The article terrified me, quite honestly. I spoke to a friend last night, who's daughter attends another VA university, and he told me that yesterday - in response to this article - she revealed that her roommate had been assaulted three weeks earlier, by three guys, in a public building
Again. Terrified. Prayers to victims everywhere.
While it's easy to focus on the school's response (UVA, FSU, etc), the most disturbing parts to me were
1) the "friends" suggesting that this young woman not report incident, because it would "tarnish" the school's rep
2) one female friend suggesting that she should have "just had fun with it"
3) several months after the attack, a subsequent friend telling her that she needs to "just get over it"
This is not simply a matter of "did the school or police properly investigate" (a la FSU). It's a systemic problem regarding the attitudes of people with regard to what is permissible and our society's response (e.g., threats from a fan base when a young woman reports an assault).
The friends hushed her for their reputations, not the school's. Can you imagine hearing this tale from a friend (or a stranger for that matter) while they are bruised and bloodied and obviously distressed and saying "if you report this our social lives are over"? Disgusting.
Read this last night and forgot that part. Thanks for pointing it out.
The people that she calls friends in the article are obviously not true friends. They are selfish brats that are only concerned about their own social status. The problem may be exaggerated at uva because of the student body that largely consists of people that come from money who worry excessively about their social status.
So right on. This is such a multi-faceted problem.
I read the article, and I cried a little on the inside. To think that the culture is saying "So what, you got raped. You should be proud it was with some frat guys and not some hobo on the street," is really sad.
It's not just the school's response, or lack thereof, but the fact that saying anything about it would warrant being shamed, ridiculed, or threatened in any way. The whole "It happens...don't go saying anything and ruining other people's lives because you allowed yourself to get assaulted" idea is the problem.
That was the paragraph that really turned my stomach. All of it is bad, but the attitude that they shouldn't report it or do anything because it would hurt their social standing really made me dizzy. Is that really the culture and attitude within the student body?
The whole thing, from the girl's friends to the administration, is just sickening.
I dated a girl while at Tech who was very active with the Women's Center and Cook Counseling and it is good to know that we have people that take this stuff very seriously and take appropriate action and handle things correctly.
That is the culture within MANY student bodies across the nation. That is the culture with many people, regardless of college affiliation.
this part really disturbed me as well..
There just is absolutely no excuse for that. This is scary stuff...It's not just UVA either...it can happen anywhere :(
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#i...
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
Similar things happen across the country on college campuses. Including Virginia Tech. As someone that graduated just this past May, there are similar stories about which frats do what things in Oak Lane and on Roanoke Street. It's messed up, and hopefully this article will make every major university take action. Unfortunately, I don't think that will be the end result.
It's strange because as a University, we have been able to deal with the adversity that came with April 16, and a few other incidents since then. Coming forth and taking action about something like this would seem less difficult, yet it just doesn't happen.
Money truly corrupts the integrity of so many institutions, and it is a sad trend that is becoming more and more widespread.
Just so everyone knows, due to the national publicity this has created, UVA president Teresa Sullivan sent a letter to the students addressing the article and notifying them that they've begun an investigation into the events mentioned. For some, it is too little, too late. For others though, they can make a difference.
http://news.virginia.edu/content/important-message-president-sullivan-ad...
"Now that everyone knows about this we really care about it."
SMH
good god, uva.
It's the NFL approach
Just incredibly shameful. I wish something could be done to wipe the elitist attitude off of their campus.
You mean like a large magazine publishing a scathing article about how they value traditions and reputation over the welfare of the people that make up their student body? I doubt anybody in Hooville is feeling very elitist with this sort of national exposure. Your wish has been temporarily granted by a genie named Rolling Stone.
I doubt it, from the UVA comments regarding the article and on subsequent responses, they are all acting like this is a libelous witch hunt against their esteemed institution.
Most of the stuff like that I've seen has come off as very defensive, and people don't generally react that way if they're confident in their position. I think if we give it a few days, it'll get some attention from an actual news outlet, solidifying the story's credibility, and diminishing some of the smugness, though that shouldn't really be the goal here.
My fiancee was a freshman at UVA in 2012, the same time as this girl. She went to a small town high school and made straight A's just like this girl. She transferred out because she didn't like it. Ultimately this was horrifying when I realized it could have been her.
People say well why didn't she press charges? The culture and idea that UVA is a prestigious university has had such an impact that she doesn't want to be the one to ruin it. I've seen a couple UVA people comment on it and talk about how appalling it was that someone called their University out on this. That exact idea is single handedly proving the article's idea of UVA being too good for this right.
And yes, this is a culture issue at frat heavy, large colleges. Not just UVA. And frankly not just a frat issue. It happens off campuses too. Unfortunately the frat and naive freshman combination is the most frequent. Another sad thing is not all frats are bad. Some frats do awesome things. One of the most sickening things of the article was how someone said "we all had to do it." Is getting into a frat such a big deal so that you have to rape someone? That's absurd to me. I've never lived on a college campus so I don't know. I spent enough time with milady at UVA to know Rugby Road wasn't a good place. Didn't know it was this bad.
Regardless, my prayers go out to this woman and any other woman that went through this. Hopefully this will lead to some culture shock on college campuses.
This is just disgusting. From the rapists' actions, to the friends' caring more about the school than their friend's well being, to the administration's handling of all this... just disgusting. That was hard to read but I'm so glad I did. Certainly opened my eyes to some of the trauma a rape victim goes through. It's tough enough to go through something like this while being hard on yourself but to have everybody around you being as tough on you, it's just really sad.
I've said it before and this article only reassures my feelings: I'm scared as hell to have a daughter one day.. scared as hell.
Thanks for sharing.
As a protective older brother, I think the key is not to necessarily be scared to have a daughter, just don't be afraid of going to jail.
Amen to you! Maybe I'm a little redneck, but if I found out this happened to someone I knew, the "attackers" had better hope that the police find them before I did. Hell, while reading this I was wishing I could kick "Drew's" a$$. Maybe getting the stuffing beat out of him would make him think twice.
Or put a Molotov cocktail through a window of a "prestigious" fraternity house...
I had my daughter in May so I can't be afraid of it anymore. You can bet I'm going to educate her on all of this though. Don't take drinks from someone unless you know them very very well, go to and leave parties or bars with friends, know your limits and don't push them.
I've always understood that a victim could be embarrassed or ashamed and not report the crime due to this, but the social pressures need to stop. Putting your social life, or more sadly your friends' social status, above justice and preventing these actions from happening to someone else can't happen.
My girlfriend in high school/start of college went to UVA in 2002-2003 school year. She was given a "spiked" drink at a party. She to this day refuses to talk about what exactly happened except to say she got no help from UVA or its police dept. She was on a full ride there and ended up,transfering out soon after. As a former police officer we know that many many sexual assaults go unreported and on college campuses this is one of the reasons cited often. Having a college police department or security more worried about stats and college reputation is one of the core issues that needs to be addressed. VCU PD has done a great job of this.
My daughter will start college in 2029. Hopefully the culture will have changed by then and that this will be a thing of the past.
Not unless we have a true culture change in the world. It's not just the police and colleges that need to change but people and how we treat victims of sexual assault AND how it's reported or used as a weapon. It's the only crime I investigated as an officer where a rape allegation, just that an allegation, can ruin the life of both the accuser and the accused.
Agreed completely.
Get her a taser and a small gun. Teach her how to use both. If the taser doesn't work... drop his a$$
Well, I already had plans to enroll her in martial arts in a couple of years. My son too.
As a woman who grew up in a predominantly male household, I am thankful to have not only the support of my brothers, but the ability and knowledge to know how to protect myself. I still carry a taser in my purse, and if that doesn't work, I have a Ruger LC9 I'm not afraid to use. If it hadn't been for my brothers teaching me everything I know, I'm not so sure I would be as prepared should something like this ever happen to me.
Now, as the mother of all boys, they know or will know (for my younger two) how to respect women. I will not hesitate to teach them to do whatever they need to, to protect a woman being harmed, even if I have to bail them out of jail. I'm by no means a proponent of violence. However, I do hope, if they ever witness such a heinous crime, they do what's right and put a stop to it.
Unfortunately, I see that you're new to this planet and the people that occupy it.
Keep working the 'education' angle with your daughter, because it has a much better chance of success than changing humanity. Thousands of years of history tell me that.
Spare me your condescension.
Trust me, she won't be nave about college life. But there's nothing wrong hoping for a less pervasive rape culture in colleges, even if it has little chance of actually turning out that way.
I didn't interpret the previous poster's comments as intentionally sarcastic or con. The sad truth is that major cultural reform rarely happens, and when it does, it's slow. The gay rights movement is the fastest moving cultural change I can think of, and our president was 4-5 years into office before he publicly supported gay rights.
I genuinely think the smartest thing you can do is educate your children (both BOYS and GIRLS) how to watch out for themselves and their friends, and what to do if something terrible happens to them or their friends (or if someone they associate does something terrible to someone else).
Well, that's the thing. Society has shown that it can pretty much change at the drop of a hat... when it wants to. My wonderment is about whether this society really wants to change regarding how it treats sexual assault.
I fully intend to teach my kids the way to go. Heck, I'm starting that now, and they're only 3 and 1 (daughter and son).
By new to this planet he was suggesting you are young... Embrace your youth and the sharing of wisdom by us older folks grasshopper
Yeah, I'm 31, so I guess that counts me as "young" still, lol.
I wasn't a fan of how it was expressed, though. Like I'm still wet behind the ears or something.
Well, since I'm nearly 50, I'm a generation older than you. And in my limited life span, compared to human history, I haven't seen that much of a change, so I'm just saying that you definitely shouldn't rely on societal change as your only defense. And as one with two daughters and a granddaughter, I'm glad you're not.
Considering rape has, and continues to be, used as a weapon between warring groups of people, and mankind is [X] years old, where X is whatever your beliefs or the fossil record tells you, I would say it IS a little naive to think it will change between now and when today's little ones hit college. Express hope, but prepare for the worst.
If you wish to be offended by what I'm saying, I can't stop you. You own your emotions.
I don't want to diminish in anyway the experiences of any individuals affected by rape, but if I may interject some positivity in this thread....according to the FBI's crime reporting stats, the frequency of rape in America has been declining for the last 25 years or so, and was actually at a 41 year low in 2013. So, while I agree that it shouldn't be our only defense, change is happening, and has been for a while.
key word... REPORTED
Nah, hope is definitely not my only defense. Just the only one I decided to express with my initial comment.
Like I've stated elsewhere, my kids will know the deal about college life and how things often go down. Between my wife and myself, we've seen enough things that go on to know that not everybody has good intentions. So they will know how to manage themselves even if the rape culture doesn't diminish like I hope (note I never said "think") that it does.
Have a leg for your candor, however. My Thanksgiving break just (unofficially) started, so I'm in a much better mood than I was earlier. lol
Is this article real? By that, I mean, did these events really happen like that? It sounds really sensationalized to me. I mean, what kinds of friends stand around someone who was just raped and debate the impact it will have on their social lives? Have you ever met anyone that shallow? It's like poorly written characters in a book written to scare teenagers. And has anyone ever heard of a frat that REQUIREs its pledges to take part in a gang-rape? How does that keep going for years without it blowing up? How have none of the victims or the washed out pledges gone to the police? It just seems absurd to me.
I'm not saying something really bad didn't happen, or that rape isn't a problem... I just question the authenticity of the article. It seems too extreme to be believable. Maybe things really are that bad, and I'm just oblivious.
I had several friends who were heavily involved in the greek system at UVA. I don't want to make several broad sweeping generalization but I did hear SEVERAL incidents where people actually were that shallow. I've heard stories of UVA sororities digging up PNM's parents' tax records to make sure the PNMs were rich enough. I've heard stories of UVA fraternities turning down legacies because they "dressed like skater bois". I've heard stories of girls adamantly refusing to go to certain fraternity houses because they were not high enough on the social ladder. I've heard stories of UVA sorority girls heavily pressuring a pledge to date a guy she didn't want to because that guy's family was worth over 100 million dollars.
If you look at the comments below the article, there are several UVA alums who are taking the "appalled but not surprised" stance .
I think turning down people for how they dress/not having enough money/whatever other snobby stuff they choose to discriminate with is a very different ballgame from choosing not to seek help for someone standing right there sobbing and bleeding.
I also think that institutionalized secret gang rape is a rediculous proposition. No way word about that doesn't get out. Again, not saying rape isn't a problem in our society (and college campuses in particular). Just that I don't think Rolling Stone is above making up (or at least wildly embellishing) a juicy story for page views to lead off an article about people trying to combat these problems in order to get page-views.
Word does get out... it's just ignored and condoned.
I remember being taught in high school history class that the US didn't initially believe reports of concentration camps because it was too shocking to believe... Just b/c something is shocking doesn't mean it's embellished.
I don't mean to be condescending, but this is the "hidden" problem with rape culture - beyond institutional cover ups, accusers are questioned differently than any other criminal victims. When a robbery is committed, and a witness or victim identifies/accuses a suspect, that person is apprehended (or at least questioned) as soon as possible. When a rape is committed, the investigating body says "wait, you're sure? This can't be true, so-and-so would never do that" or "You must remember wrong" or "I don't know, that just doesn't seem plausible." If administrations and law enforcement changes this practice, then victims can get justice and anyone who was falsely accused (which is statistically FAR LESS LIKELY than being raped) can get their name cleared.
I'm not questioning an accuser here, because there isn't an accuser. I'm questioning journalistic integrity, because I've seen a lot of cases of journalists in the internet age rushing/failing to fact check/fabricating media for page hits.
If a girl said to me that she had been gang-raped at a frat house, I would believe it. If a journalist told me he had a story about this girl who had been gang-raped at a frat house, but then her friends told her to hush it up, I would be less inclined to believe. That's all, I guess.
Well.
And this is the reason that we're seeing so many notable men in the news right now, with domestic abuse charges. Women have historically been made to feel guilty for being assaulted and the attacks tend to be treated as either they are to blame or it was just a simple "misunderstanding".
Look at the Jameis Winston case. She contends that he raped her. He says "she didn't say 'no', so it's consensual". Two different versions of the same event. It wasn't until relatively recently that "No means no" became a standard. Before then, even a "no" wasn't deemed sufficient if the female did anything that could be construed as partial blame, even something as simple as having a drink or two.. As we can see in the Winston case, that standard isn't strict enough.
And I have had several friends in the UVA fraternity system in leadership positions who would never, ever, ever, ever let this type of thing occur.
This! I have more Hoo friends than I would like to admit, two of which were groomsmen in my wedding. I've always had the utmost respect for my Hoo friends, with the exception of their acceptance of losing at football (sorry, needed to insert a little levity here). One of these friends was a Phi Psi brother from 02-06. I spoke to him tonight and he had not read the article yet, but was appalled at the details of the story I relayed to him. I've partied at that Frat house with him and things did get rowdy, but I never witnessed anything close to this. It's a horrible situation all around. Especially for the victims. The administration carries the most blame for this situation in my opinion. Not saying the culprits are guilt free by any means, they are shitty people, but this doesn't become systemic if the administration grows a sack and curbs this behavior by dropping the hammer on the first few bad apples. They neglected to do the right thing and now everyone will suffer.
The culprits, being the culprits, always have the most blame. The system or environment they are operating has accountability (less so), especially where it fails to enforce norms (starting wth laws). I wouldn't tell you your friend is at fault, but if they are administering in a system that allows this to happen, they aren't helping. I'm not even talking a complicit understanding of one of these events in their house. But if this is the culture, if from even a few, they are first line of defense.
If it wasn't real, Rolling Stone would be in big time trouble, and they wouldn't risk that. Also the quotes make the story authentic.
Quotes, dates, actual names of real people and places...
Otherwise, UVA would sue Rolling Stone for so much libel that they would own the magazine TOMORROW.
They didn't use any quotes, names or dates. That (and the severity of the claims) is why I doubted its veracity.
Read it again.
There are more quotes, names and dates in this article than there were fans at UVA's spring game
The only thing they definitively say is that it occurred sometime in 2012 (presumably in the Fall, while they were rushing) and the name of the frat.
Look, I'm not saying there wasn't a girl raped by the frat, and I'm not saying this is ok by any means. I just think the author "spiced" up the event to make it more shocking to get us talking about it. That's why they lead off with it - to catch your attention. And I think that keeps us from being able to have a reasonable discussion on the topic - it's all just pitchforks and anger. Just my opinion.
So you're agreeing there was a rape. If you ask me, that's deserving of pitchforks and anger. Rape is NEVER okay.
yeah, like what reasonable discussion are we supposed to be having...?
Not necessarily the people involved in the main crime (of course their names were withheld), but the administrators that perpetuated the coverup and the suppression? They have names and status, and they've been called out (and with photos!).
I'm not attacking you or your opinion, just saying that the names of the deans involved as well as the victims mentioned are real. Plus, Rolling Stone legally can not give the names of the members of the frat involved or else the magazine will get sued for libel and/or slander, since no one has been charged or convicted. They can only release the names of the persons who have come to them willingly to give information, and have their permission to be mentioned by name.
Not sure it's worth our time to argue amongst each other over a UVA/"national anonymity" problem. Not saying sexual assault or rape doesn't happen in Blacksburg, but we can all safely say that our school doesn't tolerate it. I think we can all agree, if the events that are detailed in the article did occur, then UVA has deeper and darker hole to dig its self out of then Penn St.
Agreed. I guess I just didn't like the article. Tried too hard to shock me, when the facts alone would have been sufficient.
I can see that. There are parts that seem totally fabricated, like something awful out of the movie kids. One thing I have seen in 30 years of life is, sadly, real life is often worse than fiction.
'And I think that keeps us from being able to have a reasonable discussion on the topic - it's all just pitchforks and anger.'
I think it is a reasonable discussion. There is no reason to believe the author spiced up the events.
This story doesn't need "spicing"...if just a portion of the story is true it is deserving of "pitchforks and anger".
I think that's the point the article is trying to make. They're trying to say that UVA is so concerned with the reputation that their friends didn't want to say anything.
exactly. if you look at how willing their administration is to cover up "bad party experiences" for the sake of preserving reputation, what makes you think a portion of students (large or small) doesn't share that mindset?
But isn't that part of what the issue is? Someone sees this and is like "This can't be real. It sounds horrific." That's going to be the initial reaction because that's just shock. Like waking up one morning and seeing that planes have crashed into the World Trade Center Towers, or some gunman shot 32 people at the school you attend.
It's Rolling Stone, with someone who did a lot of research and started the article almost a year ago.
It's not a news article that comes out with little information about some girl accusing a lacrosse team of raping her.
It's shocking, but that doesn't make it less real. I mean, look at the song lyrics they include with the article from "Rugby Road". The lyrics scream glorified sexual/rape culture.
I'd be interested to hear more of the stories of what happened to those that DID come out against it before, and what happened to them when they did. The ones they touched on essentially said nothing was done to help, and they transferred out of school. That there is a TERM for it other than what it is, shows how bad it was looked at for the victims to say anything about it, including their friends.
The fact that uva is one of 12 schools being investigated and some of the stories I've heard from frat boys there say otherwise. I'm not saying everyone at uva is a rapist but I've definitely heard of some way sketchier things happening there than anywhere else.
They all just describe it as part of the experience. Again don't get me wrong some fraternities are totally fine there and have tons of great people but I've heard of some realllllly sketchy stuff at that school
Yes.
I guess I'm just naive, then. Seems unfathomable to me.
I agree. I thought the same thing when I read the article.
I know stories of several sorority pledges who, as part of their initiation, had to be "broken in" by members and pledges of their affiliated fraternity.
It's not written into the bylaws and charter of said fraternities and sororities, as far as I know, but it exists.
There's a big difference between that, which although pretty gross is consensual, and organized gang-rape of an unsuspecting girl.
So being required to have sex with various dudes at once in order to be accepted into a fraternity is consensual?
Consensual extortion. Now THERE'S a concept.
At the end of the day, they are CHOOSING to go through with it. They may be socially pressured, sure, but they aren't being attacked in a dark room and held down. I'm not saying I approve, I'm just saying we're comparing apples and oranges here.
I'm not absolving the participants of the act, but you can't say they weren't facing physically abusive retribution for not obeying, with any certainty. If a rape ritual is involved in pledging, why not beatings?
Consent under duress is not consent. Given more facts, there could actually be a sexual assault case in there.
For the woman and the man?
Maybe comparing apples and rotten apples.
I'll buy that.
Actually this boils down to "if you want to get into this sorority, you have to have sex with [insert numbers, etc. here]" which is basically the definition of sexual coercion which, according to the Department of Education, counts as sexual harassment and is therefore blatantly against Title IX.
It's akin to a woman looking for a job and the boss saying "Sure you can have it if you meet me at the motel later."
It doesn't even have to be the fraternity. It could be the clique within the fraternity. Such as, "I'm awesome and have a lot of money, and sure you're in the frat, but if you want to hang out with me, this is what you have to do."
As the father of a 14 year old girl, I felt like crying when I read this.
Dean Eramo should be forced to resign. UVA should be subject to Civil Rights violations and lose federal funding.
This is awful....UVA should be embarrassed.
I hope this girl sues UVA and presses charges against "Drew"
That was hard to read and even worse to think about. I can't begin to imagine what those women were feeling or the sense of pure helplessness that sets in when no one helps. As many of your said it's a societal issue, however, in UVA's case, it's magnified by the "wealth and privilege" mindset. It reminded me of an incident that happened at the Landon School outside of DC back in 2010. I remember reading the article and thinking about what kind of culture this environment was creating. Here's the article from the Washington Post and a great Op-Ed from the NY Times about it. Something similar happened in that the school tried to keep in quite to protect their image.
This is a terribly tragic article. It hurt me to even read it. The students at uva need to join together and work to change the culture there. I know this happens at schools across the country but this hits home being that it is so close.
So glad I'm a hokie and not a wahoo. In 95, my freshmen year we had all kinds of seminars never leave any girls by themselves, always help them walk back from the cage, report everything including harrassment and fights even small in nature. During the summer of my Freshmen year, there was a major case involving some football morrisson and crawford I believe, these two guys were in my Chemistry class, eventually they were suspended from the school and I think one was later put back onto the team. I didn't too much about rape at VT aside from the football team or other sports and famously Druckenmiller. But its sad, that traditions, and protections of greeklife outweighs that of an innocent victims. I hope friends protect their victims and go to police right away.
I'm confused why this is all focused on the school not doing anything or covering up the cases. What's the worst punishment the school can give...expulsion?
These cases should be brought to the authorities because it's a federal crime. Do student's have immunity from federal laws because the school has a "governing body"?
Law officials should swoop in, take charge, and the guilty should be in jail. Which by the way, I'm assuming you also won't be able to get a degree from UVA while serving a prison sentence..... 2 birds, 1 stone.
I'd liken it the PSU/Sandusky Scandal.... If the school is informed, they should report to the police immedietly. It is the school's responsibility to do so.
Edit: Upon reread, I see your point; this is a legal issue, not a university administrative matter.
The easiest answer is that the police can only look into matters so much. If the school/other involved parties sweep it under the rug, the police can't fully investigate and can't bring charges against anybody.
Outside of that, it's the school's responsibility to investigate and do what it must do. Keep in mind, that a police force can be intimidated by prestige, as well, and MAYBE turn the other cheek, or at least "investigate" to say they did and find nothing to be able to do anything about.
Option 2 that was given to the victim was to have a jury of students and faculty, with a dean as a judge.
That is ridiculous and a horrible way to handle a case like this.
The culture at UVA discourages the victims from doing anything...I mean, seriously, this girl bought a rope to hang herself. This is tragic....
Short answer here is victim's rights. If the victim doesn't want to make it a legal matter, then there's nothing police can do. Unfortunately, many of the predators stay out there because victims don't want to press the matter, overwhelmingly due to social pressures. Fixing that problem would be a long, arduous process of changing societal attitudes and behaviors towards victims. All too often people are at least skeptical of rape allegations, if not downright dismissive, or even derogatory towards the victim. If we as a society want to help fix the issue, we really need to start looking out for each other. Bystander intervention is crucial to preventing these scenarios, and creating a supportive environment for victims is essential for if and when sexual assaults do occur. Unfortunately, it's not as easy as just having everyone realize sexual assault is always wrong and not do it (though it should be that easy). Some people are fucked up. So the rest of us need to work together to make it as difficult as possible for those individuals to perpetrate their crimes. People just gotta start looking out for each other.
YES. In fact, it is their responsibility (especially if they want others outside of their crap-filled bubble to think as highly of their university as they obviously do) to put an end to such heinous acts after (and, if possible, before) they happen.
These cases are brought to local authorities. NO, there is no "immunity", but girls are generally reluctant to pursue criminal cases due to the emotional toll. In this case, I feel it should be the responsibility of the school administration to try the defendant in a criminal court (though I don't think this is actually allowed). Hence, the need to take swift actions to expel suspected students.
While the local authorities are certainly responsible to assist in handing out punishments for any criminal offenses occuring in the city, the campus is the school authorities' jurisdiction.
Came across this: A UVA Student Responds
To me, this person sounds sadly similar to Jackie's friends that advised her to not report it so it wouldn't damage uva's rep. Especially this part:
"However, I, along with many others, fear that this article will be counterproductive. The divisiveness that results from something like this will cause strain on an already vulnerable community. The negative image of UVA that it depicts is going to taint all aspects of the University, including the good ones.
I didn't take it that way, seemed to me that the writer was acknowledging the incident and was willing to let it run its course.
In my opinion only, there will be a negative image of the University caused by this article, and good students and professors (which I am sure they have some of) will be tainted by it. Happens everywhere, every time. Innocent people get caught up because of situations they are not in control of.
Negative for now. They can come out cleaner and better on the other side if they handle it right and don't go back to the same ways of shunning victims and allowing perpetrators to continue on with their ways.
Its only negative because of the coverup. If they did the right thing from the beginning, they wouldn't even be in the news now.
Well....maybe the good people of UVA should demand that a safe environment is provided to the women of their university. Maybe they should make it a mission to make the school safe from sexual assault and rape. Maybe they should stand up for what is right and put a stop to the ongoing crimes of violence against women. The school is clearly not doing everything it can to stop this history of sexual crimes. In fact, they are covering it up and discouraging the victims from reporting it.
These crimes need to be treated ZERO tolerance and UVA is not doing that. No excuses.
Stand up for what is right UVA....
Sorry, that's not what Thomas Jefferson Envisioned.
I won't down vote this, though I'm inclined to, and could probably justify it by the guidelines. Rivals or not, this isn't something to make light of. This isn't a UVA problem, it's a societal one. Using this as fodder for anti-UVA jokes is on par with the Penn State kids dressing as April 16th victims for Halloween. It's entirely in bad taste, and it can only degrade ourselves.
HT, read the article. Yes, that comment could be seen as being in bad taste but it's a direct quote from the article, quoting a UVA administrator. So your hostility is a tad misdirected.
And yet it's taken completely out of context. One is a poor excuse regarding the campus design, the other is saying that Thomas Jefferson did not envision standing up for what is right and demanding a safe environment. Direct quote, yes, but not at all applicable to the matter at hand.
How is it taken out of context? Did you read the quote? An abduction/rape victim petitioned the university for better lighting to help prevent others from enduring her same fate and was told that it was against TJ's vision. They literally rejected a proposal to create a literal "safer environment." It almost couldn't be more applicable to the matter at hand.
We have no idea what she told the university. She could have simply said "There needs to be better lighting on that side of campus." She doesn't have to mention what happened to her and then a university official might give that exact response. Without knowing her actual request and reasoning, it's half a story.
It's an article about the decades-long systemic suppression and silencing of Rape Victims at UVA. The contextual clues are all there, the comment is accurate in context, and the skewering is deserving.
If you think the article is about UVA, you missed the entire point of it. UVA is the example for what the culture is like on campuses across the nation. The feelings the victims go through and the treatment they receive from their peers. That's why there are numerous schools under investigation. UVA was the example provided because that's the story they decided to go with. That was the story that would compel the readers most to act and feel disgust for the situation.
That was a ton of scrolling and reading about UVA students, UVA faculty, UVA administrators, UVA customs, UVA fraternity chapters, Charlottesville locations, and Thomas Jefferson references to conclude that the article was "not about UVA."
Not about UVA?
Seriously, this is about UVA...specifically.
Do you really think Rolling Stone specifically and emphatically made sure you knew it was about UVA for no reason? I am sure they have testimony to back up the story....they could face a lawsuit if they can't back up what they say.
Just the names are changed. You can't brush this under the rug and say it is just meant to be viewed above as an indictment of society.
From my viewpoint, the article uses UVA to identify the issue as they are one of 12 where this situation is at its worst. Does it certainly reveal a lot of issues within UVA's system? Absolutely. Is this exclusive to UVA though? Absolutely not. Everyone is dwelling on the fact that UVA was the subject of the article and missing this entire point:
There are certainly people who don't want to do the dirty work that comes with having to handle a sexual assault case everywhere and that number is greater than you think. It is truly a horrific situation, but having been a mandatory reporter under Title IX, I've seen the situations where victims don't want to pursue any punishment for their attacker. It is a dark and ugly situation when these things happen and there's nothing cut and dry about it. Many hands are tied because everything has to be done in a certain order following steps exactly as they are laid out by the law. Emotions, perception, self-confidence, and many other things all come into play here when these situations occur. More often than not, when a person is sexually assaulted, it is by someone they know. Someone abuses the trust the person has for them. For a victim, that often makes things incredibly difficult. They will often feel they can't trust anyone or on the other hand they will refuse to press charges based upon whatever relationship they have. I'm not justifying UVA's actions and I'm absolutely not justifying any of the acts that occurred to these women (and men as this is not an issue that is exclusive to women only being the victims), but I'm saying that this is in fact an indictment of society. On the whole, bystanders rarely ever intervene. Studies and social experiments have shown that in cases whether it is a person being physically assaulted, sexually assaulted, or perhaps even dying on the side of the street, those who see it happening are not likely to do anything about it.
Hokie Hokie Hokie Hi, I agree with your points. This is an indictment of society. The human race is very disappointing. I was talking about this the other day and my wife said let's change the subject, becuase it is so depressing. I applaud those that take the courage to stand up for victims and demand changes to systems that don't do enough to protect those among us who are most vulnerable.
I did, and I understood he was referencing the article. Maybe I misunderstood, because I read the line from the comment above it that said "UVA needs to stand up for what's right," and then saw Duffman's comment. I'm not trying to be hostile, and I apologize if I came off that way, but I have seen an obnoxious number of postings (on facebook, not here, because we're classy people) that use this article to make anti-UVA "jokes." This was the first comment on this thread I saw that was possibly leaning that direction, so I said something. Thanks for setting me straight, have a leg for your trouble.
Have a leg for level headed discourse.
I agree with your point that Hokies shouldn't use this to make UVA jokes. This is bigger than school rivalries.
Down-vote if you feel the need. I feel completely justified in the comment. This isn't just a "LULZ UVA IS TEH DUM" thing. Like I said below, this was something they actually said to an actual rape victim when she advocated for the actual creation of an actually safer environment for women/everyone at UVA.
They deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and satirized for taking such a flippant attitude towards these issues. I am mocking them for that attitude and using the exact reasoning they used. If you are upset with anyone, you should be upset with them.
But, again, if you feel the need to downvote because I offended you or you felt my comment was out of line with the community standards, please go ahead. I'm been downvoted for way less deserving things. I was once downvoted for informing someone that we don't run the Air Raid offense :)
No, you expanded on and explained what you were going for. That's why I didn't just mindlessly click the button, as so many do. I appreciate the dialogue. No downvotes for you. If anything, I should downvote myself for misunderstanding the snark. I love snark. Snark my thing.
+1 for two adults coming to an understanding in a charged discussion.
I like you guys. You guys are cool dudes.
I'm so confused. This....this can't happen on the interwebz. It's so....so wrong!
While I see the point, if it were my school, my attitude would be "To hell with the image. Fix the problem, then restore the image". People lives are being ruined and the author of the letter is worried about things like whether or not they can still claim to be a "public ivy".
UNC has a similar challenge with regard to the academic scandal (although the UVA issue is clearly FAR more egregious). Their half assed attempt to discover the depth of the problem and fix it caused things to linger on and in the end, look even worse.
They SHOULD be tainted by it. If everyone just pretends this isn't happening and turns a blind-eye, then it will continue to happen. A good person will ask questions and not accept the answers that UVA is giving.
The treatment of the victims by the school is not acceptable.
I am really disappointed in how UVA has handled all this.
This is not how you treat a victim of a violent crime.
This is not the type of situation that you let "run its course",
It is so sad to see people worry about not just their schools rep but also their own rep when it comes to exposing things like this. People should not care how there actions are going to be perceived by the very people that committed this horrible act. People should think about doing the right thing because the rest of the world will see them as a good person for helping a person in need.
This pretty much sums it up...
While a good thought this was debunked.
This part disturbed me beyond belief. The fact that this seems as to if it is a tradition and that this is how they determine how badly pledges want to be "brothers." It is truly sickening that this is how they determine a pledges loyalties and how trustful he is. Gangs have been known to do similar acts and I just can't wrap my head around how important it is to some of these kids to join something and feel apart of something that they must commit disgusting acts like this. Absolutely disgusting.
Disclaimer: I know not all fraternities are like this.
Basically, if this is found to be true, Step 1 should be to revoke the charter of any fraternity doing this, and immediately suspend all members of the fraternities that take part. Zero tolerance and zero exceptions.
Gangs vs frats isn't the best comparison here. Gangs are full of lost souls that haven't had the right guidance and direction, so they turn to such nonsense for a feeling of companionship and love that they've never felt. I will never fully understand the thought process that goes into joining a gang but I can at least wrap my head around the misguided thought process.
But this, nah, can't make sense of it at all.
The comparison would be that gangs have used "gang rapes" in order to initiate new members. These kids in these fraternities I doubt are misguided or lost souls and most of them as the article states (believe they quote a dean) for UVA specifically were mostly raised by wealthy families. The fact that these most likely well brought up kids are committing the same acts that gangs have been associated with is disgusting, and almost more appalling because we know that these kids know better.
I'm having trouble seeing how your description of "gangs" doesn't fit this particular fraternity chapter. Any kid who follows through with an attack on a defenseless person, when the know that it's wrong, is no better than a gang member. I can at least understand a gang member's motives from the perspective that many gang members feel that life offers them nothing better, for an option than joining a gang.
As the father of a 3 year old daughter I had a hard time getting through that whole article. The level of misguided priorities on display here are horribly disturbing. I don't know how any human, parent or otherwise, can get so lost on what truly matters after something this terrible happens. The complete lack of accountability by all parties, the school, law enforcement, and the victim's friends is infuriating and heartbreaking.
The unfortunate truth is this behavior is unlikely to ever be completely eradicated when a bunch of unsupervised kids are getting black-out wasted. Mob mentality kicks in and can lead people to take actions they would never normally condone (ignoring the fact that in this case this was clearly pre-meditated, they were all waiting to jump that poor girl in that room). I know I for one am already starting to prepare to teach my son and daughter about the impact and consequences of their decisions. Avoiding a compromising situation is often the best defense. Sadly, sometimes there is nothing you can do if someone is truly intent on inflicting harm. Being a parent is terrifying sometimes.
Those rambling thoughts aside, if this is all true a lot of people's heads need to roll. Publicly. Criminal charges, university sanctions, and loss of state and federal funding. There is no excuse for any of this.
i've typed out a few lengthy replies to various sub-threads in this post only to delete them and never click 'Post'. i just don't want to come across as a sports fan trying to pour fuel on a sports rivalry. because that stuff doesn't matter a lick when innocent people's lives are being destroyed.
the crap in that article was just vile.
sexual assault needs to stop, man.
Phi Kappa Psi has released a statement
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2014/11/letter-statement-from-phi-k...
Thanks for sharing, but this kind of stuff grinds my gears. Every time a fraternity gets in trouble they come out with a statement claiming, "We would never do that." and "That is entirely unacceptable and not what we do."
I understand why they make these statements, but fraternities continually break the rules, especially at UVA. Just earlier this semester Pike (or as UVa calls it Pika) and Sigma Nu were both kicked off campus for hazing. Their hazing got to the point where a pledge almost died and was hospitalized and it wasn't just because of excessive drinking.
These organizations issue an apology, lay low while the issue blows over, and then continue as they were. It's sickening and these organizations need to be held accountable so that these kids learn a lesson and that these acts are stopped.
To add, one of my best friends from home is a "Third Year" at UVa and a member of a sorority. The fraternity that she has the most friends in happens to be Phi Psi and she told me, "I know those guys and they would never do that." I was appalled that she could say that to say the least.
Edit: Thought that I should add that this same friend informed me that the Phi Psi house was vandalized last night including graffiti and bricks being thrown through the windows. Some of the brothers stayed elsewhere last night because they didn't feel safe.
News Article
That to me starts to read like a quasi admission of guilt. I expected to read a response filled with legalese.
They suspended themselves.
Am the only one that wants all those guys to serve some serious prison time? Just because it happened on a college campus, doesn't make it any less of a crime.
That was premeditated rape. Man, that's serious stuff. We're not talking about finding alcohol in their dorm rooms or some other petty BS. Expulsion should be the least of their worries.
no, you're not.
lock them the hell up.
Not off base at all. If the UVA had done its job to protect the students, they would be in jail.
Edit: *administration
Brain working faster than fingers.
I am having a very visceral response to this. So I will refrain from comment.
The combination of my hatred of all that is UVa and how disturbing the actions and then also lack of actions of what took place, leave me nothing short of angry.
The world is just a messed up place.
EDIT: oops, wrong thread.
#Thatawkwardmoment when you accidently post a duke football joke in a not-so-light-hearted thread
Yep. Went to read the new post in the Duke thread and said, "wait a minute, didn't I just post something...OH CRAP."
Not sure if it's been mentioned before on this thread, and this thought will probably draw some heat. After reading this article, does anyone find it a little more than coincidental that someone like Jesse Matthew Jr. chose to operate in an environment like Charlottesville? Not a conspiracy theory at all, but if this guy saw the laissez faire attitude the local community took with this kind of behavior, why not?
I don't think the two have much relation at all. Serial stalker-hunter type offenders are rare. Overwhelmingly, victims know their attacker. Matthew likely operated around Charlottesville due to population, the centrality of the location, convenience, and the demographics of the area. No relation whatsoever to a school administration that mishandles what are largely date-rape situations and a man who abducts his victims. My biggest problem with the article was that it mentioned the Hannah Graham case, as if the events could be linked by anything more than geography.
Fair enough, I missed the Hannah Graham reference in the article. The MOs are quite different, but it is very coincidental.
I wouldn't doubt it was a chosen place because it is a college area, with a reputation for being a "party" school. I wouldn't doubt that there are others still out there in town, but laying low for the time being. Although, with the heat around the school and sexual assault, it is now a very public location in which to operate, so any others may be departing for similar locales with less spotlight.
I think the article mentioned the Hannah Graham case because Matthew had previously been accused of sexual assault at two other different schools while he was enrolled. He was never charged with anything, so I think the article is trying to make the point that if those schools had handled the situation better then maybe his future crimes could have prevented.
"Matthew likely operated around Charlottesville due to population, the centrality of the location, convenience, and the demographics of the area."
What are you?, Dexter? You sure seem to know what a serial killer is looking for when he chooses his location...
Not sure why you have so many problems with the article.
"mishandles what are largely date-rape situations"
The main rape talked about in this article is a gang rape situation, with violence.
No, I'm not a serial killer. I do read a lot, and have taken criminology classes, and have been trained as a sexual assault Victim's Advocate, but most of what I said is pretty common sense. I don't have "so many problems," I pointed out a single one. And your last point doesn't invalidate what I said. That's one case of many, and it WAS date rape, which then escalated. The Hannah Graham case and the story from the article are apples and oranges.
I don't think that most of these are date rapes, and in fact, the articles says so:
This, to me, means that these rapists are opportunistic predators, who use the fact that there are dozens of young girls who are very naive and don't know their limits when it comes to alcohol to surround themselves with potential victims. It is not unlike pedophiles joining groups like the boy scouts or big brother programs so that they can have more access to victims. It doesn't mean that fraternities or the youth programs are the problem, it just means that extra vigilance is needed in these situations to ensure the safety of the vulnerable involved. UVA, however, was doing just the opposite: they were sweeping these assaults under the rug and weren't doing what needed to be done to prevent them.
Being a serial rapist is not mutually exclusive from date rape. Someone who commits date rape once is likely to do so repeatedly until they're caught. When I got certified as a Victim Advocate, we watched interviews conducted as part of the Lisak study referenced. Several were frat guys who picked up a girl in class for some type of function that weekend, sexually assaulted them, and did that with a different girl just about every time there was a fraternity function. Rapes are overwhelmingly perpetrated by an acquaintance of the victim, which on a college campus generally means date rape. The second half of your comment is spot on.
Yeah, when I thought about it after I posted I guess getting girls drunk to point of not being able to give consent is date rape. The real point I was trying to make was that the article said that most rapes on colleges were performed by serial rapists, and that they are actively seeking victims by joining frats.
Apparently Mark Filip, a former US AG and lawyer/judge is going to lead the investigation. He is a member of the same fraternity! Wtf! Conflict of interest?!?
Well, there goes any shred of a chance of justice.
Hopefully he's embarrassed by the black eye on his frat and wants to clean house and clean it up.
Could go either way.
Fraternity chapters can differ GREATLY from university to university. To conclude that there is some sort of conflict of interest is a very large leap. Even if he's still connected to the fraternity (which he was not a member chapter in question) the thought that either he or the national fraternity would be protecting people who performed such viscerally horrible acts is a very strong accusation and provides no gains for either Mr. Filip or the national fraternity.
And he may be under pressure from the national organization to really annihilate this chapter if the allegations are true, for their own sake. It certainly works both ways.
Of course there is a conflict of interest! It is not a very large leap...in fact, there is no leap at all.
BY DEFINITION:
A conflict of interest (COI) is a situation occurring when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation. The presence of a conflict of interest is independent of the occurrence of impropriety.
Whether they plan to protect the fraternity or not, it doesn't matter. By definition, there IS a conflict of interest and it would not be acceptable to use a former member as the investigator.
My comment was directed at the thought that no justice would happen because of a potential conflict of interest. Jumping to that conclusion is a large leap. You don't know what his standing is with organization or the greek system now. Also while one fraternity was at the center the story highlights that the "bad experiences" happened all over rugby road.
You are correct that I should have been more clear. I'd feel much more uneasy if he was somehow affliated with the university or individuals accused.
NBC 29 has clarified this...
It may be nothing, and it probably is nothing... but did UVA know he was a member?
Personally, I don't believe in coincidences.
From what this article shows, UVa has been trying to save face since Day 1, and are only now doing something about it because word got out. I don't think its a coincidence that they proposed someone who would potentially have an agenda within this case. I find it to be in the same practice as UNC self-admitting their athletic transgressions... to a UNC alumnus working within the NCAA offices. I don't blame the AG for completely ignoring their request.
Absolutely this.
These are not dumb people. They are smart, highly educated people with a clear agenda and a disgusting history of making these allegations go away. We'll never know for sure but common sense leads me to believe they knew exactly who he was and his background.
The Cleary Act was supposed to help yet all its done is make colleges work harder to hide things. There has to be a better way.
And this thing is starting to blow up even bigger.
The UVa President, Teresa Sullivan has gone into hiding to avoid questioning from the media.
Source: BusinessInsider
Wow... just went over to TheSabre to see how the UVa community is handling this news and....
I'm actually very saddened by the sheer amount of... well, a couple things.
1 - the denial. Apparently there is no way this could have happened and the Rolling Stone is a worthless source because of it. The fact that main street media isn't covering it shows just how full of crap the piece is.
2 - the constant comparisons to 4/16. They're basically calling this their version of it, and make every opportunity to bring up Virginia Tech throughout any discussion that takes place.
Happy Valley 2.0 in a lot of sad, predictable, ways. People don't like having their high opinions questioned.
That said, a lot of my Hoo friends believe the report, and actually want it to get fully fleshed out. They are incredibly upset that this was allowed to happen, and want those involved held responsible for the sake of the university and the victims.
I am finding that the ones that are in denial the most and are acting in the worst ways are the ones that never actually attended UVa.
reddit.com/r/uva was very discouraging too.
TheHook
Apparently we're beating a dead horse here, as this decade old article from The Hook makes the exact same claims.
Systemic seems to be the appropriate word for this problem.
Tech has definitely taken notice. Just got an email from my boss, who just got an email from his boss, and so on and so forth that they're making sure that ALL VT employees have taken a Title IX training course (student jobs included). I can only speak for the two jobs I've had here at Tech (one in a dining hall and the one I have now) but I've never had to do this before. At the dining hall only the managers and people running the individual shops took them. At my new job we did something that they thought would count but apparently didn't.
Shit is getting real at UVA.
Business Insider
To save you time:
Phi Kappa Psi has voluntarily suspended all activity.
That came after someone vandalized the frat's moniker with "SUSPEND US" and "UVA Center for Rape Studies"
University President Theresa Sullivan has called for Charlottesville police to investigate the rape cited in the Rolling Stone piece.
As @Alum07 mentioned above, she has apparently done this from a super-secret location, as the university is refusing to divulge her whereabouts, citing security concerns.
The students who vandalized Phi Psi sent an anonymous letter demanding, among other things, the dismissal of Dean Eramo.
Governor McAuliffe has called for an investigation.
And we're just getting started, folks.
The comments in the Business Insider articles are devolving into a complete circling of the wagons for UVa going into the worst of the behavior seen during the aftermath of the PSU scandal.
Blaming the victim? Check
Outright denial and attacking of the sources? Check
Ganging up on and mocking anyone who attempts to criticize UVa? Bigtime check
I actually think that bob3 guy works for UVa. His statements thus far have been so over the top supportive of UVa with complete denial that it borders on the absurd. And yet, he's continuously getting far more upvotes than down.
It's not out of the question that UVa employees/alumni are going on the message boards in order defend the school in every possible way, including discrediting the victims and making absurd, over-the-top statements.
This is a precedence of this (Daisy Lundy assault, Joe Arwood's death) when their administration initally attempted to cover up horrific episodes. When the media got their hands on the stories, throngs of UVa-biased spectators discredited the victims and made ridiculous claims in order to protect the UVa brand.
I've had several conversations about this with VT and UVa alumni. The sexual assault isn't unique to UVA. The way the assaults were handled by the university's administration is specifically unique to UVA.
The pushback by some Wahoo alumns is reflective of an overall institutional narcissism. We all know UVa is a good school academically but we all also know it's nowhere near Ivy League caliber. UVa has to constantly perpetuate every positive trait of the university in order to the create the narrative of "UVa being in the same league as Harvard and Yale". Therefore when situations like this occur, their alumni do everything in their power to styme the effect it will have on their reputation (aka gretchen wieners syndrome). It's why they aggressively tout absurd monikers like "public ivy" and are ruthlessly arrogant (even in comparison to HYPS-level alumns).
"Setting aside for a moment the absurdity of a school offering to handle the investigation and adjudication of a felony sex crime something Title IX requires, but which no university on Earth is equipped to do the sheer menu of choices, paired with the reassurance that any choice is the right one, often has the end result of coddling the victim into doing nothing."
The article doesn't spend much time on this (for obvious reasons, I understand) but this does hit on a huge problem. Instead of involving the police who are trained to investigate crimes the schools are asked to stage their own investigation thanks to federal law. It either ends up with the victims not doing anything or kangaroo courts that don't provide justice to either the victim or accused due to the nature of these proceedings.
Just saw this article and thought it would be worth posting, especially since the topic had come up in discussion. Apparently Rolling Stone has issued an apology to UVA over the article. I know yahoo isn't the most credible but here is the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/rolling-stone-uva-rape-story-retraction-180722194....
Washington Post did a good job summing everything up.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-fraternity-to-rebut-c...
This is sickening. The mountain rape victims have to climb now is even taller. The worst thing is no one really knows what Jackie lied about. Regardless of whether or not she lied or what she lied about it's still a huge issue. The fact that she lied should be irrelevant in the greater picture.
Agreed, and I'm afraid the whole thing will be dropped over details. These developments are devastating to the overall picture, even though they change nothing about the environment exposed by the original article. The main point wasn't the one incident, it was the systemic problem no one wanted to talk about, which hasn't changed.
Just on the face of it...and maybe a little knee jerk reaction....but this looks like it could be a very symptom of the problem that was brought up in the article: "protect the reputation".
Obviously, there's no way of knowing for sure.
I've already seen UVA fans/alumn/student talk about how appalling it is that Rolling Stone uprooted an entire university because of this.
Ugh. People saying that missed which part of this is appalling, and which part is appallingly poor journalism
Exactly, a damn mediation session. so basically "lets just all say we are sorry and forget the whole thing".
How about lets take this seriously and investigate, maybe some suspensions, maybe some jail time. I mean Tech will put a fraternity on probation for catching a drunk underage member anywhere, not even at the house. My fraternity knew all that it took was anyone leaving our parties, getting caught stumbling, saying they were at our house drinking, and we were busted. no proof required. girl claims RAPE and nobody even looks into it?!?! Wake up UVa!
Its not the schools job to criminally prosecute people. That is the job of the cops.
What I never understand is why these people don't report it to the cops. Once the evidence is gone it becomes very hard to prosecute a case. Without someone coming forward and confessing, its hard to go back weeks or months later with no physical evidence and get someone found guilty.
From what I understand (and if you read this article it goes more into detail), the hospital rape kit is a humiliating experience for someone that is already likely humiliated and an emotional wreck. It doesn't surprise me that some victims think they can bottle things up and deal with them on their own until it's too late to collect evidence and adequately prosecute someone.
Well, there is a couple things wrong here.
Foremost, while the school is not in the role to prosecute criminally they are in the role of holding students up to the student code of conduct. It is up to the individual to report to the police and pursue criminal action, however even if the student didn't want to go to the police the school could still find the student rapist guilty of breaking the code of conduct and kick them out.
As the comment above states, after the moment of rape most victims are either not physically or emotionally able to process what happened and get help. They often shut down and go to the place they feel the most safe. It could take hours, days, weeks, months or even years to get to a point where a victim feels they can publicly confront what has happened to them. And as was stated, the rape kit given is termed the Second Rape. It is invasive and not pleasant, especially after having gone through a trauma of this nature.
However, performing a rape kit is not necessary for prosecution. It helps in the conviction for sure as you have physical evidence, but many rape cases are convicted through witness testimony. In this case there are a number of boys involved and it just takes one to crack. Can be difficult but when a school has a no tolerance rule against rape it helps cops put pressure on the kids.
I know this is a site to discuss football so I will make this brief. Don't forget that accused people have rights also. We all want rapists put away and punished and it seems at times we are much more focused on that than making sure INNOCENT people don't go to jail or get railroaded by a school or justice system. The Duke lacrosse thing proved that schools need to tread carefully as the men in that case got somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 million from the school as a result to them jumping to conclusions. Remember how those guys were guilty, should be thrown out of school, sent to jail, ect before we had any facts or evidence? What should UVA or any school do? In the broader context of assaults on campus what evidence level is required to convict someone of honor code violations? Who does the investigating? How do we make sure it is done in a fair and equitable manner where the truth is the end goal and not a conviction or sweeping things under the rug? We don't want rapists staying at school but we really don't want innocent people thrown out of school. This is why it can help to let the justice system run its course, lawsuit settlements get really expensive real fast.
The only other point is that yes it is not impossible to prosecute someone but it is much much harder to do so when there is no physical evidence. It can be done if someone witnesses the act however in the case of someone coming forward a month later what can you really establish? Even in this case if we are to believe the story we have established two things. One, she went to a party with a certain individual and two, her friends saw her after being assaulted. Unless you had a string of witnesses who can readily identify people out of lineups who left the room in question it is hard to prove person X committed a felony. In this case DNA would make it really easy to pin the crime on someone.
In summary.....the accused have rights also........jumping to conclusions and not getting solid hard facts is bad.....if in doubt......see the Duke lacrosse case
I was speaking more to your comments about why victims don't come forward sooner and the school's responsibility and recourse. Not about what you are talking about here. I agree with what you say. It's a tricky task to handle these cases for the school, though I would say many schools are not necessarily doing themselves any favors with how they publicly address the issue.
FYI, at VT there is a judicial review panel that reviews code of conduct issues that is headed by a Student Life employee and comprised of various faculty and falls under student life department, or did when I was there. When it comes to suspension or expulsion it is kicked up to the Director of Student Life's office for review who, depending on the issue, will take it to the University President's office and the University Review Panel (I think that's what it was called, I forget exactly)
The thing is, under federal law, schools have to offer something other than "let's call the cops immediately".
See this was my problem from the beginning. This is why you never embellish like this article did. Rape is heinous enough. The facts are bad enough. They never needed to go so over the top to try and shock us and get shares/page-views like they did. By falsifying or embellishing the story to make it more shocking they ensured more eyeballs saw it, but they also undermined the message.
I'm not sure they purposefully embellished the story, they just didn't do a good job investigating the story. But I agree, even if they pulled her details out to maintain journalistic integrity the message of the story would have been just as strong. They uncovered a lot more than what happened (allegedly, i guess) that night
Whats interesting is that UVa will feel vindicated that there was no wrongdoing based on this, but that doesn't mean its true. You cannot ignore the throngs of rape victims from UVa that have come forward in the aftermath of this scandal.
I'm hoping that the administration will look past the unfortunate confusion (purposefully or accidentally) of details, and focus on the full picture. Like you said, a much bigger problem has been exposed
I would not be surprised if this girl didn't remember which fraternity party she attended, most freshman screw up the greek letters. If they try to sweep it under the rug on this technicality, it will only prove the article's point.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/12/05/3600261/uva-gang-rape-dispute...
She's also been diagnosed with PTSD, and there are people acting like bad fact checking excuses the entire situation
And what's more, UVA was already under a serious Title IX investigation for an alleged incident that occurred in 2011, totally separate from the issue at hand in this article.
When I read the original article, her story reminded me of the scene in American Horror Story Coven, first episode, Madison is raped by the frat. I can't find a video clip, but I think it may be exact.
Not saying Jackie is lying, but remember this striking similarity reading over her account.
I read the original Rolling Stone article and was appalled. It was one of the only times I've been seriously concerned about something I read, and it knocked me off my kilter for days.
Seeing the story change is, in some way, a relief. I would, more than anything, like to see proof that the thing I read and found so inhumanely disturbing was actually fiction. I won't get there, I don't think, because even if this didn't happen it probably has to someone else somewhere else at some point in time.
I hope Jackie gets the help she needs, regardless of what the truth is, because she will need support one way or the other.
And if Rolling Stone just fucking fabricated this whole thing, then they need the Oprah treatment.
When I read the original article I thought it was dangerously one sided. I am now just sad for all kinds of reasons.
Since 2006 I have avoided these things and let the justice system take care of it. If the Duke Lacrosse case didn't teach people not to judge so quickly then nothing will.