In an article published yesterday, ESPN Insider Travis Haney writes Virginia Tech should make an offensive coordinator change, and Tech's likely to do so.
Those close to the program were unsure last month about offensive coordinator Scot Loeffler's future, but failure to score in four quarters Saturday against Wake Forest is a death knell.
You'd think Loeffler would get a pass for the offense's issues, given the magnitude of injuries and youth Virginia Tech has dealt with this fall. I'm told, however, that head coach Frank Beamer has concerns about the inconsistency of the play-calling and flow. Beamer has become more vocal in recent weeks and implored Loeffler to call more run plays and make the offense more digestible for all the young, inexperienced players forced into action.
Haney suggests Florida's Kurt Roper as a possible replacement for Loeffler. Roper worked along offensive brainiac and quarterback guru David Cutcliffe for many years. Prior to taking the job as Florida offensive coordinator / quarterbacks coach in 2014, Roper held the same position at Duke from 2008-13. His full resume is available on Florida's athletic website.
Following last Saturday's 3-6 double-overtime loss to Wake Forest, the Richmond Times-Dispatch Mike Barber asked Virginia Tech head coach Frank Beamer about any looming staff changes.
Asked if the woeful offensive showing might lead to staff changes similar to the ones Tech (5-6, 2-5 ACC) underwent after the 2012 season, Hokies coach Frank Beamer said, "We're not talking about that right now. We're talking about trying to go back home and get ready for Virginia. That's what we're talking about."
I'm skeptical of Beamer making any successful staff change that is nothing more than a one-for-one offensive coordinator swap. Bud Foster has assistant coaches like Charley Wiles and Torrian Gray that know his vision, scheme, practice drills and coaching points inside and out. Scot Loeffler inherited Shane Beamer and Bryan Stinespring. Jeff Grimes, the coach who was supposed to help Loeffler build his offensive vision from the inside out, left for LSU after a year in Blacksburg. Stacy Searels replaced Grimes as o-line coach, and that match with Loeffler may have been arranged marriage, not eHarmony, compatible.
I don't believe an offensive coordinator can have success at Virginia Tech, or any other school for that matter, unless he has buyin from the head coach, and assistant coaches that have an intimate knowledge of the scheme and vision. That is to say, if Tech is seriously considering replacing Loeffler, Beamer Co. will have to make room for a new offensive coordinator to bring along one or more of his people too. Otherwise, I fear it'll be a wash. Moreover, the opportunity wouldn't attract top-flight candidates. Any coach worth his salt knows he needs his guys to execute his system. Finally, given Tech is 20-17 since 2012, and playing for bowl eligibility against Virginia Friday, any incoming coordinator won't have the breathing room to coach both the coaches and players.
Comments
SO who comes to VT knowing in 1 year they could be looking for another job...AGAIN?? IDK where we're going to get a coach that says hmm VT that looks like a great place to go. Even the people at WalMart will know to stay far from VT
That's when you look for either
A) someone who could step into the HC position if Frank is around next year. OR
B) an entirely new offensive coaching staff (with exception of Morehead.)
Yup, I think those are our two options..
A) Hope and pray that we figure it out with current coaching staff and win 8-10 games
B) Scrap everything (except Morehead Bud and Grey) win 5-7 games but show improvement over the season.
Even Scrap Wiley?
As much as I like Shane, its paramount that he goes (if his Dad stays). He needs to find a 1-AA HC'ing gig and walk away.
I'm afraid that Frank's retirement is getting caught up in him wanting to make sure Shane has a stable next step. If Frank just retires, like he should this week, then Shane is left dangling in the wind. If Frank stays, Shane must go. It's adding another level of complication that is unnecessary.
I thought the presumption was that Beamer was hampering or vetoing Lefty's playcalling. Am I missing something here?
the only thing you're missing is the actual words from someone's mouth on the VT staff and no one is going to do that.
I keep looking for this on the side line but with Scott in the box and Frank not being in-game hands-on. I don't see it.
I always understood Frank to be a coach that let the coordinators run their game and decide whether to go for it on 4th down or try a field goal, a la Arians at AZ.
I don't see meddling in-game.
Yeah, my impression is that Beamer provides full autonomy. I think it's counter to the thought process that Beamer is the reason we always have bad offense...because he micromanages. I think Beamer always has bad offenses because he doesn't get involved enough.
I don't think he has any idea what the OC and DC are doing on a weekly basis. He just studies punt protections over and over again.
its sad but i LOLd at this.
I also don't see any evidence of Frank being like this either.:
I've never understood the people that blame Beamer for the offense but don't give him credit for the defense. Why would he micro manage one and not the other? I think Frank let's his coordinators do their jobs. Unfortunately, he's never had an OC that's near as compitant as his DC.
"Why would he micro manage one [offense] and not the other [defense]?I, for one, don't believe Frank is meddling/micro-managing the offensive game. However, to directly answer your question: because one is wrought with rough years stymied by lack of production [offense] and the other is, for the most part, always sitting in the lofty section of league rankings [defense].
In my opinion, the biggest problem right now is that our offensive vision and planning do not fit the personnel and talent that we currently have available. Sure, the coaches want to run the ball first, pass second, and win the ground/TOP game. We are, as of late, trying to shove a square peg into a round hole while at the same time staring at the hole wondering why the peg won't fit. It's going to be too little too late even if the coaches decide to "think outside the box" for the UVa game and design a plan around what they think the players can most excel at. It's 6 days, AT MOST, to prepare...I think they probably still took off today and I'm not sure what their procedures are regarding Thanksgiving day or even game day (since we don't kick off until night). To me it'd be a huge gamble to try to accomplish that much in such a short time with so much riding on the game, despite the fact that it's what the coaches need to do most, in my opinion.
Another thing is that I think Frank coaches and runs the program too much from the shell of practice. What I mean is that he seems to take what happens in practice as a never-can-be-wrong indicator of what will happen on the field. Even if the on the field product continually falters, or falters more than can be expected of the kid, he still looks at what happens in practice and says "Well the kid shows amazing stuff in practice, so we're sticking with him." Then, in the game, if the kid is having a bad day, it seems infrequent that Frank will make a reactionary decision to find someone who might have a better day. Instead, we ride the dying pony until the next practice, despite it might having cost us the game. And a little bit, if not a lot of that, seems to effect the offensive game plan. I think Bud's side of the ball is a perfect example of what the offensive coaching needs to be more like: full of constant changing of schemes and attacks aimed at befuddling the opposing coordinator. Instead, it seems like the opposing defensive coordinators are frequently saying "Oh, I see what VT is about to do, so let's do this so we can stop them."
A true Bravo here!
So, he gives the guys full autonomy to run their respective teams but allows bud to make adjustments and not Loeffler?
I think this is contradictory and do not see any evidence of that either.
Where are you guys getting this stuff from?
First, start with desired result... then work backwards and make pieces fit that narrative
Unfortunately, it's 100% his offense. Beamer wanted to run the ball more, that's it.
Yeah, I don't buy that Beamer has made Loeffler fail by telling him to run the ball.
Loeffler has made Loeffler fail by not knowing what it is he wants his offense to be.
and apparently make adjustments.
mhmm.
i think that is a completely reasonable suggestion for a head coach to make to his offensive coordinator.
It's exactly what anOSU did for when the young OL and JT Barrett was thrown into action after Miller's injury. They did not open the playcalling wide open until Barrett and the OL were able to understand the plays.
"make the offense more digestible for all the young, inexperienced players forced into action"
This has been one of my biggest complaints about Loeffler. With all of the injuries and young talent at key positions, maybe the offense shouldn't be so complex that they cannot even line up or substitute correctly, much less execute the plays themselves. Loeffler can stay up all night working on wrinkles and counters, the players do not have the practice time to hammer home all of his "genius" nuances, especially since many of the starters are in their first year or weren't even first string at the beginning of the season.
Astute observation. I've bee asking myself all season, "How is it possible to get so many snap count penalties?" Mistakes!Mistakes!Mistakes! have hurt us more than anything else this season. We would have several more games in the win column had it not been for that.
I'm really concerned about the long term welfare of the VT football program. We are simply not recruiting the number of top athletes we used to 5-6 years ago. Recruiting good athletes leads to success on the field and success on the field leads to success in recruiting. But the opposite is also true. Like Bobbie Bowden, Beamer has stayed too long. The FSU program quickly rebounded when Bowden stepped down and Jimbo took over. If we don't make some changes soon I'm afraid VT will be perennial AC fodder like Wake and NC State are.
And regardless of whether Beamer is meddling in the offensive play calling or not, he is the one who picked the offensive coaches and more than likely he picked people whose offensive philosophy reflected his own.
Do you really think we aren't recruiting as well ? While I agree when it comes to OL, I'd say we are doing better in other areas. Yes we had a lull that we are trying to recover from, but our current crop of freshman/rs-freshman/ and the incoming class probably are some of the best classes we've had.
Here's the problem with your sentiment: there's no actual data to back up this notion.
Our class this year is ranked #23 on Rivals. Last year's class was ranked #25.
During the "Recrutiing Doldrums" that everyone fingers (teehee) for our current issues from 2010-2012 our classes were ranked #23, #33, and #22. Right around #25 is where we usually recruit, That hasn't really actually changed...
Well sure, if you're going to base it on facts, then we are recruiting the same as we have for a long time. But if you instead cling to the premise that we've had a huge upsurge in recruiting success, then you can also refuse change because 'we're going to be good real soon'. The timetable always keeps getting moved back. Last year, we were told this year would be improved because of more time spent with the new coaches. This summer, we were told 2015 'will be our year'. Now Frank & his mouthpieces are saying 'Well, we're REALLY going to be good in 2016'. So next year, it will get moved to 2017, and the apathy will reign, and Frank will continue to take the program down. We're getting what we deserved, and it will get worse next season. All because so many fans refuse to hold Frank accountable for anything.
A recruiting ranking is about as subjective as a "fact" can get.
Look at the tape. The players from the last recruiting class are undeniably an improvement over the talent that was already in the program. If your argument for hiring a new offensive coordinator is that Newsome and Ocain were bringing in the same amount of talent as Moorehead and Loeffler, I think you're making a mistake. There are plenty of reasons as to why a staff overhaul would be justified. "Lack of improvement in recruiting" isn't one.
We'll see if we can close the deal on some recruiticorns; the ranking will shoot up if we do.
There's an intangible here that isn't fleshed out in the recruiting numbers. For a long time, VT's strategy was "get as many 4* in-state kids who are good athletes and we'll find a place for them." It led to tweeners and position shifting galore. Just in the last year, there has been a philosophy change - recruit guys for the position they played in HS. Look at our WRs. We'll have to see how Grimes' OL recruits panned out, but I remember French practically doing a happy dance to find out we were targeting guys for their natural positions. The "star level" may not have changed much, but I think there's at least a recognition that our recruiting had to be more focused, more direct to what we need. More Isaiah Fords. Fewer Joel Calebs (no offense to Joel, just looks like he hasn't found a place where he can play comfortably).
Even more importantly to me, look at the offensive line recruiting around 2010. Just not enough bodies coming in, even if the rest if the class had a good star rating. I believe it was what, 5 lineman in 3 years? We're feeling that effect right now
and we have 10 in this upcoming recruiting class. OL They'll get after ya.....
I remember Marcus Davis.....
Does it seem reasonable when your top three backs are out and your OL sucks and for some reason you're using zone blocking when they can't do it? As was suggested by Coder above we need to adjust schemes to make best use of available talent and opponents weaknesses. Who is responsible, the head coach or offensive coordinator, I have no idea, but it is clear it is not happening.
The offensive Coordinator is responsible for coordinating the offense.
Wait, you lost me. French, can you confirm?
"O'Cain has made O'Cain fail by not knowing what it is he wants his offense to be."
We basically heard the exact same thing in 2012. How do you go from one clueless coach to another completely new clueless coach? When you fire someone you're supposed to replace him with someone better, not someone worse, and yet we managed to somehow fire O'Cain and replace him with one of the only OC's on the planet that is worse? And playing the exact same confusing style of football as got O'Cain fired 24 months prior?
Yeah. It's amazing that we hired someone worse. I thought Loeffler was an awful hire at the time and I've said it over and over again every game. He's not good. He never has been good. We hired poorly. (I still believe we hired Loeffler to get Grimes, even to the point that we were thinking Grimes may become the OC and HC one day)
I see your point, that the evidence is that Beamer creates these problems because we've had three bad OC's in a row. But as French went into this weekend, playing "Claiborne Ball" isn't debilitating. There are plenty of offensive schemes that control the ball, play physical and augment the defense in today's game. Loeffler said he could do that. He clearly can't.
Beamer may set some loose parameters, but they are parameters in which a good OC can succeed. But a bad OC will make any parameter seem debilitating.
The early book on Loeffler while he was at Auburn was that Chizik had his hands tied. He liked, or stated as his goal, to run the crap out of the ball. Perfect, just what we wanted right? For me dread started to creep in once Malzahn returned from his I-AA gig and immediately Auburn was right back in the thick of the SEC. They were stocked with talent that either Chizik or Loeffler just didn't see or know how to use.
Throw in the conventional wisdom that we got something of a deal on Loeffler because he was still getting buyout payments from Auburn and it looks more and more like we deliberately bought damaged goods because the price was just too good to pass up. So all in all we did make a disastrous hire, compounded by Grimes leaving for greener pastures while we were in the middle of addressing the decade plus drop off in OL recruiting and performance.
In 2012 I was thinking that 2015 was going to be the year, reasoning that the Offensive staff changes needed to be treated like a new head coach, expect to take a few steps back to pay for a bigger improvement. I was still flying high right up until the first quarter of the ECU game.
And now... I am legitimately looking forward to spending a chilly night in Lane on Friday (I love a good cold night game, it's what I grew up with) but I don't hold out much hope for a win.
How much of Loefler's hire is based on Weaver not being willing to open the purse strings for a GOOD coordinator. Or CFB being open to a very different playstyle.
Probably not much considering Pep Hamilton was the #1 choice
A lot. Auburn picking up 1/2 the tab on Loeffler/Grimes was the only way we could have hired them.
We could have taken more risk and gone with an old guy (Friedgen) or an unknown (random 1-AA OC) for our budget. Looking back at it, either of those options couldn't have possibly have gone worse.
Excellent point about Weaver and his lead wallet.
If I'm blaming Beamer for anything it's allowing O'Cain and Newsome to hang around too long. And when he was finally forced to get rid of them, he hired a guy who had a team LOADED with talent and couldn't move the ball with them. If you watch Auburn in 2012 it looks almost identical to VT's current clown show. And the Loeffler defenders can keep on defending him and saying he didn't have the players at Auburn to fit his scheme and he doesn't currently have the players at VT to fit his scheme and blah blah blah. Bottom line those observations don't change the FACTS that his offense was piss poor at Auburn and the very next season, a different coach took the exact same players to a National Title Game. And his current offense has steadily regressed this year. Any division one coordinator that's worth their salt should be able to modify their scheme to fit their players strengths. Loeffler doesn't not do that...AT ALL.
My opinion is Loeffler was a huge mistake and hiring him was probably the nail in the coffin of Beamer's coaching career. He was forced to make a change and he made one, but he ended up worse off because of it. I truly believe it's that simple. Former offensive coaches allowed the O Line to become non existent, and then he hired a guy that had no clue how to coach around that. Either no clue or just too damn arrogant to admit his scheme isn't working and he needs to do something different. Not to mention his situational awareness or lack their of. That crap he pulled Saturday taking Motley out of the game after he finally got the offense driving and put Michael (Hangs on to the ball for 45 seconds) Brewer back in should've gotten him relieved of his duties by itself. Once again, pulled that same kind of crap at Auburn.
I feel like this gif whenever I see the Auburn arguement:
I will once again point out that the coach that took over at Auburn recruited those players and runs a different system then Loeffler does. Loeffler was brought into change the offense to a pro style system. He tried to do this with the pieces he had. Now if you want to argue about his performance this year. I am willing to listen.
Still shouldn't be surprised when an OC that ran a shit offense comes in a dn runs a shit offense.
The last time he wasn't thrown into a dumpster fire (Temple), he ran a very good offense.
correct me if i'm wrong, but...
steve addazio was the head coach of that temple team.
that temple offense looks strangely similar to the addazio boston college teams.
see where i'm going here?
Loeffler was able to successfully develop a power running game that lined up perfectly with what his head coach wanted given a good/healthy running back and solid (for the Big East at least) offensive line? Correct.
how do you know that isn't just addazio's offense?
Yep.. 4 years an OC, 3 awful. The one successful year: Steve Addazio told him what to do.
He's just not good.
So why even bother having an OC? Or a DC. Clearly the head coach just does everything anyways.
That wasn't what was said at all? You are simply twisting his words because we all know you are in the minority of being a Loeffler supporter.
He said the one year he was successful, he had a HC who is successful at running that offense. All other instances he has failed at his job.
my understanding is that how a HC utilizes his OC can vary greatly depending on the head coach.
some coaches have their hands way deeper into the offense (or defense) than others. the obvious non-Tech college football examples that come into my mind are:
-dabo swinney and his laissez-faire approach with offensive coordinator chad morris.
vs.
-gus malzahn, who is much more involved (calls plays) with his offense and coordinator rhett lashlee.
who's to say that scot loeffler is wholly responsible for temple's offensive success in 2011?
so when lefty is succesful its not him its someone else but when hes not its all him.....
but yet poeple keep dismissing that beamer could have his hands in the offense... i dont get it. this offense is the exact same as the one we saw before lefty got here the only difference is we had beast mode RBs and QBs who would make something out of nothing. and i mean NOTHING.
im not a lefty supporter, i dont really know what i am in fact. i dont see a new OC coming in and saving the day. in all honesty i expect the same results no matter who comes in because i think frank sits down and says this is what i want and then an OC has to game plan accordingly.
What are you basing this on? And even if that was 100% correct, are you telling me that an OC that can't gameplan Franks vision well enough to get into the red zone vs WF is worth keeping anyway?
Quick, without looking... Who is the Offensive Coordinator of the Philadelphia Eagles?
Right, nobody knows or cares because they know that Chip Kelly is in charge of that program, he calls all the plays, and Pat Shurmur, the OC, is nothing more than a figurehead assisting him with his duties. Considering the success Addazio is having at BC after his success at Temple running his offense, and the pathetic offenses that Loeffler has put out there when not under Addazio, is it really that hard to think that a similar situation might have happened there, as well? Especially when he had the playsheet in his possession every game?
another good example.
i was going to go with the green bay packers initially, but decided to stick to college football.
who is mike mccarthy's offensive coordinator? that's another one you'd probably have to google. furthering that point, joe philbin left the packers OC position to become head coach of the miami dolphins. how different does the packers offense look before and after philbin left?
as a packers fan, i can't argue with that!
best qb in the game.
You obviously haven't seen Kirk Cousins.....
Sorry I'm just now getting around to this. I'm not saying I know more about calling offensive plays or developing a game plan than Scot Loeffler. However, I can promise you that if I was hired to install a particular offense, and after spring scrimmage and fall camp, and even into the regular season, I saw that I just flat out didn't have the personnel to run that system...I would explain that to the HC. And then I would probably suggest that we adjust our scheme to fit our players strengths. Football is kind of complicated at the college level I will give you that but it's not rocket science and you can make pretty major adjustments and still be successful. Every winning program I've ever seen has one thing in common, they all run a offensive and defensive system that their players are suited for. I don't care if you run the Wing T or Wish Bone offense, if you have players that know that system and can execute it well, you will be successful. Football is football is football.
"Beamer has become more vocal in recent weeks and implored Loeffler to call more run plays and make the offense more digestible for all the young, inexperienced players forced into action."
"Let's see, boss, we have no running backs left, our OL sucks, and everybody knows we're going to run, well because they know what you want, Frank. OK!" Makes me think of that movie, Enemy at the Gates, where the Russian commanders order their men who have no weapons to attack the German lines. No wonder we see few if any passes across the middle anymore. Loeffler is starting to sound like a goat, one with his hands tied. (Do goats have hands?)
Hmmm... I just asked the one in the next barn stall and he didn't know. So...
Doesn't look like it, no
A horse is a horse unless of course...man, I mean, horse, that was fast and timely and very appropos, and, although I'm not authorized to do so, I would like to offer you the job of Head Coach because you seem to be the only one who knows a goats arse when you see one.
Wait, what's a "the goat's arse"? You mean the cutie tocks?
I accept the job of head coach. As my first act as head coach, I will fire the entire offensive staff, promote Bud to HC, and let him figure this out. Thank you everyone and goodnight.
If we lose this week, there will be quick changes.
But losing to LOLUVA is not an option. I want us to drink from the Commonwealth Cup for another 365 days.
I agree with your second sentence with every bit of my being. A small iota of my being, as a fan who wants changes, thinks that us losing and not going to a bowl game would put a powerful microscope on what is wrong with the program right now (it can't be all bad luck, can it?). But still, I quickly shove that sentiment away and replace it with the burning fire that will be my rage if UVa beats us in Blacksburg, takes back the Commonwealth Cup, breaks our dominance streak, prevents us from having one more game to watch, and ends our active bowl streak record. Our team, unfortunately, is down due to an unhealthy rash of injuries (seems to be becoming a norm for our program), and I'd hate for these young guys, who haven't ever shown any quit in their play, to have to be the ones to be at fault for the resurgence of the UVa football program.
I think that beating UVA and winning a bowl game are both musts if we want to continue to improve recruiting. We have already fucked up enough, we're the biggest joke in college football right now. I'm confident that we are in bad enough shape that there will be changes this offseason. Maybe not big enough for some fans, but there will be something.
A change at OC is just putting lipstick on a pig
We are a broken team offensively. We have been broken for a very long time, but have been bailed out in the past on the pure athleticism from the QB position, dating all the way back to the Al Clark days. These QBs have bought time and have gotten us wins that we didn't deserve while playing in conferences that really... when you look back on it, as a whole were clearly not running on all cylinders. Most importantly, we won because we had the defense to keep us in nearly every game when the offense simply wasn't good enough.
The issues we have with the offense now, being a complete lack of identity, curious at best playcalling, execution issues all over the field, an abysmal Offensive Line. All of these things rang true under the previous regimes of Stinespring and O'Cain. We expected things to get better under Loeffler, because we really could not get much worse. We somehow found a way.
Right now, we have a major, major issue on the offensive side of the ball, and things are not improving, despite wholesale changes of the offensive staff 24 months ago. Firing Loeffler is ignoring the real issues at hand. I don't buy for a second we fired an offensive staff only to replace those guys with the only worse coaching staff you could find. Something is going on, especially when the issues we see now are the same (albeit compounded because of the lack of athleticism from the QB) as we saw that lead to the previous staff being fired. At this point, either Frank Beamer is historically bad at evaluating coaching talent from an offensive standpoint, or the philosophy and gameplanning he demands out of whoever he has in place is so completely flawed that it doesn't matter who the replacement is, we will continue down this path.
Either way, if we make a change, its time for the big one. Not only for the fact I outlined above, but also because of incredibly difficult it will be to sell anyone to come into Blacksburg to be a temporary OC for a year or two before Beamer retires and he is looking for a job again. You aren't going to get anyone in here capable of legitimately turning this ship around if you're really only giving them a 2 year window to do so. There is only one decision to make right now, and that's either pull the trigger on the big coaching change (that is, forcing Beamer into retirement) or sticking with everyone for another couple years. Any other half-way changes will only compound the issues we have.
or let beamer keep coaching (more as a face than a coach) but let our head coach in waiting that we cant claim we have because of virginia laws do the hiring for the new OC. even if it is behind closed doors and a big secret. let bud get his guys in and start building his team for when frank is gone. i agree with everything you said. the biggest being it doesnt matter who comes in the offensive stratagy is that of the head coach and those are the results you see on the field.
Not sure that having a 'Face-of-the-program' HC and then a behind closed doors real HC who is actually in charge helps. You can't have two people at the top of the pyramid; it works best as a top-down power structure.
Mike Earmentrout said it best "No half measures"
I think you make some very compelling points and I dont mean for this comment to be read as an opposition to your post. However, I would like to just leave this here: In 2007, Jimbo Fisher was hired as the Offensive Coordinator and Quarterbacks coach at FSU following a disappointing 7-6 season in Tallahassee. One year later, after another 7-6 season, he was named the Head Coach in Waiting (lets agree to skip over the merits of this tag) and in 2010 took over Bobby Bowdens position as the Head Coach.
i think we can all agree that we're about to hire chad morris as OC for a year or two before promoting him to head coach.
sarcasm. or is it?
Something drastic like that is needed. Carte Blanche for new OC and staff positions on the O side of the ball. And speaking of, how in the hell hasn't someone snapped up Morris already?
i'm guessing he's had his fair share of suitors. probably holding out for that golden opportunity, somewhat akin to our bud foster.
He is making more than a million a year as a coordinator with no pressure as Dabo is the fall guy if they lose.
Clemson hasn't been great on O this year (far better than us). 6 vs GT, 16 vs Cuse, 17 vs BC, 23 vs UL.
also 50 vs UNC 41vs NC State.. However Clemson Points for 29.6 60th vs. VT Points for 23.3 101st..
If bud had an offense that averaged almost 30 points we would be undefeated and in top 4.
also all those with the back up QB. stout is not good. but he did beat WF and scored TDs on them.
Those may be with a back up qb but ours are with a former d3 d lineman playing offensive tackle and a 4th (or 5th) string running back.
I have no doubt that Chad Morris is better than SL but I'm not sure that he is not the next Chip Kelly. An offensive genius should be able to put up better numbers with some of the talent that he has.
point taken but a chip kelly type coach isn't going to come to VT so why not take Morris?
I, for one, would support this. Something needs to happen. He's proven he knows how to run an offense. I don't care if we go new school spread or old school smash mouth offense...I just want some effective offense....
Oh, we're deep in the hurt locker on offense, but I disagree with your accessment of the problem going back to the Al Clark days. Yes, atheletic QB's made a significant difference in our play, but when we were in the Big BEast we were very competitive in a conference that consistantly had 4-5 ranked teams out of 8. We did it with a strong run game first and athletic QB's when things busted, and with awesome D and special teams.
Our O-line talent has degradated to 2-Star talent and we haven't had much in the way of our traditional RB in a while. While special teams play has changed in CF, I've been disappointed in our special teams since around '08.
So, yes I agree recruiting and coaching are root causes in our decline, but I disagree with most of your first paragraph.
I don't expect a change at HC. I'd welcome it, but I don't expect it.
"You aren't going to get anyone in here capable of legitimately turning this ship around if you're really only giving them a 2 year window to do so." If forcing Beamer into retirement means that a new head coach brings in a whole new staff, then isn't that essentially axing Loeffler after 2 years?
A new system takes time, and we are playing with youth at nearly every skill position on the field. Freshmen at the key receiving spots including TE, running back until they both got hurt, and a QB that hasn't even had a full offseason of practice, nor had he ever started a game until this season. Clearly it can't get worse, but it's bound to get better when this team gets healthy and can work through some issues over the spring and summer.
Tried to give you a leg but I'm new as a member, been reading for a while. You hit the nail on the head, it's time to commit to the big change or ride this out a little longer and then rebuild, the latter of which will ultimately be more detrimental to the program over time.
Legs for the newbie!
Leg for the name! I still love to laugh at random MV5 drama.
I always like to add my own personal Marcus Vick story when I can.
Right before Thanksgiving break one year, Marcus cut in front of me in line at Philly City in Owens right before closing. His homeboy working the joint straight ignored me and whipped up a juicy grease roll for Marcus. When I finally did place my order, homeboy forgot it. I did not get a cheese steak that night.
True story
and i just laughed out loud. Thanks for that story!
MAN, I woulda fought somebody that night.
Unless they find an OC who's vision and plan is already shared and practiced by Shane, Stiney, and Moorehead then it's going to be rough. The only spot I'd see open to getting in OL coach since Shane and Stiney I'd assume are protected and Moorehead is the best offensive coach we have right now and needs to be on this staff.
A couple of thoughts here:
1. I'm not sure Loeffler had a chance to bring along more of his people than Grimes. He was summarily dismissed at his previous gig, its not like he was the pied piper. Does Scot Loeffler have "people?"
2. Even if Loeffler did have poeple, keeping recruiting assets like Shane and Stiney makes sense. Lots of leftovers on staffs are the best recruiters. I don't see having Stiney and Shane on the staff as representative of Loeffler's struggles.
3. Because Beamer is a short-timer, I don't see the point. And it will be tough to get a high quality OC for a 2 year period unless they are a.) old (see: Friedgen, Ralph) or b.) extremely inexperienced or c.) promised the HC gig. But, rethinking this, I think so little of Scot Loeffler that it would be almost impossible to find a worse OC. We did it once, downsizing from OCainSpring to Loeffler, it would be statistically impossible to find an even worse OC again. Right?
4. My preference is for Beamer to step aside now. That would leave us with the following options:
a.) wait on a high profile HC to be available (I'm rooting for GT to beat UGA this weekend so they let Richt go. I'd love to see Richt + Bobo +Bud)
b.) hire Bud as HC and let him hire his own OC (I don't mind this option at all)
c.) piss Bud off by not hiring him, go publicly after a few HC options that aren't in our price range (Jon Gruden!) then settle for someone who is about fifth on the list (Derek Dooley everybody! He was a our first choice all along!)
1. Lefty has no peeps.
2. Shane can go and allow Stiney to recruit from a recruiting coordinator position
3. I don't think that a coach would turn down a D-1 coaching job because they think Beamer may or may not be gone in 2 years. It would be a bad assumption to think that if you have a top 35 offense and the team is winning again, that Beamer retires and you are automatically fired. If you are, now you become a hot commodity for putting out the VT offensive dumpster fire.
4a. I do not want the reason that Beamer steps down to be an outsider (Lefty). Though I think Richt could have much success at VT.
4b. The most favorable choice, b/c only Bud would want to be the man following the man.
4c. Funny.. very funny!
in response to 1.)
i don't think it's so much about having peeps already in your pocket so much as being able to go find, interview, and hire people that fit what you're trying to do.
most of all i would think that a GOOD unproven offense coach would love to come to VT. even if only for 2 years why would you want more. nothing against VT but guys want SEC jobs and SEC money if you come to VT from somewhere like say marshalls OC who seems to be doing pretty good idk who he is or much about his but im just saying for instance... you get a D that will get you the ball in scoring position, you can actually make mistakes and then get about 1000 2nd chance to get the ball back and score before the other team does and you get a team that "is only a couple plays away" from being a 10-1 team and right back in the national picture with a pretty easy road to the national championship. whos been horrible! horrible!! on offense. so any turn around would look dramatic not just in VT eyes but in the national preception of the program. its a GREAT stepping stone if you ask me for an OC to take a 2 year job. i know thats not ideal for us but most coaches i think are always looking for bigger and better.
And with our D, he could be an instant hero.
this.
perhaps the VT OC job isn't the worst one out there.
you don't have to be great at first. you just have to be okay. our defense is going to put you in good positions to succeed all game long!
I'm taking choice B. Maybe Whit calls 1-2 high-profile guys this week and sees if there is any interest. If they say no, B is the obvious choice.
Frank built the program, but if/when we lose Bud we lose LPD, which is the part of VT football that we are proud of right now.
Also, it's officially time to be worried about Moorehead jumping off the sinking ship. His talents have not gone unnoticed.
Based solely off of buzz williams hire, I don't think Whit is such a penny pincher he'd let a talented coach go just because of price (unless we're talking huge amounts of money). Moorehead deserves to be paid. He recruits like a champ and seems to coach his players well. VT went from a team of brick hands last year to talented/producing this year.
I'll keep on hoping for Bud to be the next coach above all others. Until I see it happen, I don't believe he can fail.
Who is to say that Bud Foster wouldn't tell VT to go pound sand if they forced Beamer into retirement. I know Bud Foster bleeds O&M but my guess is his allegiance to Beamer is stronger than his allegiance to VT.
Maybe his opinion is that Frank is a good HC and Bud can thrive under that.
Fix the offense and VT thrives.
I don't know about all that. There's two types of coaches; those who have been fired and those who haven't been fired yet. He could have left for a number of great opportunities, but he's stayed, and he's ready to take over (per interviews referencing plans to enact when he becomes HC). He wants to be a HC and he has spent most of his coaching life building VT defense to the high standard it is today and has been for more than a decade. I'm sure he's very fond of Beamer, but not so much to tell VT to pound sand and start over somewhere else.
17. Georgia SEC Mark Richt School Pay: $3,200,000 Other Pay: $114,000 Total Pay: $3,314,000 Max Bonus: $1,000,000
I don't think there's any chance Mark Richt leaves Georgia to come to Blacksburg. You can recruit (and dominate) the state of Georgia, including Atlanta, easily reach Florida, play on the national stage that is the SEC and he make's nearly $700,000 more than Beamer right now. Not that Babcock won't pay for a good coach, but Richt would be a fool to leave. And Georgia would be dumb to fire him with the talent level at that program.
Georgia (fans) might just be that dumb. They're 8/10ths as delusional as Alabama fans without then pile of trophies to justify it.
Why not use 80%?
or 4/5?
It's probably more like 3/5ths since we are talking about the Deep South. Shall we compromise?
two drums and a cymbal go off a cliff...
BA-DUM-CHHH
leave by choice you are correct. but there are not alot of reasons to keep him around in UGA. loss to a bad UF team. cant in the confrence. underperformed for a few seasons in a row now. all that tallent and nothing to show for it.... sound familiar! i think hes a great fit here. keep in mind MIZZOU is now back to back SEC east champs. let that sink in.
The Richt rumors are always based on UGA firing him. Which will happen at some point. They really should have done better with their talent level and the annual Florida loses really hurt Richt's reputation.
I really think that the rumors have a lot more traction than not...
I care not for any offensive coach other than Moorehead. He's a gem and we have seen him turnaround some of our receivers. That being said I'm pretty sure the one coach I want gone will not be dismissed. Little Beamer has yet to prove to me he can coach a running back corps. I also don't see much recruiting value any longer. He brought in a few big fish at first but has failed to deliver recently. Clean house but keep Moorehead please.
I can dream. That's not all I want though. But this is not the place for that :)
Is there any thought that moorhead has the ability and desire to be an OC? I'm just imagining Chopping Wood and LPD teaming up.
On one hand, Moorehead doesn't have much coaching experience. On the other, he did at least spend some time in the NFL and with quality coaches at Stanford, so I'd support taking a shot on the guy
This is as good a chance as I'm going to have to use this gif.
i mean, look at all the coaching experience scot loeffler has. a lot of good thats done him.
maybe we need a guy with less coaching experience?
I think we already traveled the "less experienced" OC road when Stiney was promoted to OC, and we all know how that worked out.
Yeah, less experience isn't what you need. If a change is made, Beamer/Whit are swingin' for the fences.
my above comment was total sarcasm, btw lol.
If given the chance, I would like to implement my system. My stystem is called "Recruit the biggest dudes what you have ever seen."
Every single position, I'm going to go hard after the biggest guy who plays that position. We then run the entire offense out of a single formation. Power I. 1 QB. 1 FB. 1 RB. 1 WR. 5 OL, 2 TE. For goal line situations, WR subs out for... another TE!!! In order to keep the playbook thin, we will practice one play at a time until it is perfect.
First play on the list: Handoff. Ball is handed to RB. RB runs with ball.
Next comes the QB sneak for those 4th and short situations.
Then we'll need a pass play, likely run out of play action.
I'm going to go the steve Addazio route too. Not enough personel big enough to run this offense? Screw it. I'm running it anyway. Recruits get to see what I'm about, and if they want to buy in they can.
All speculation here, but if we give Lefty the proverbial boot will we see transfers from our young offensive players? I am particularly thinking of Ford and/or Durkin.
So be it. We don't have any offensive player worth keeping to keep Scot Loeffler.
Maybe but, what if he stays?
1. i doubt both of them leave. 2. if they both do for no reason other than my own i think motley can get the job done and by the time he leaves whoever the new OC is would have time to recruit and coach his guys.
My vote goes to Marcus Vick. Gotta get that swagger back in the offense
I've done some more thinking, and I don't think change can stop with the offense. Cody Journell for special teams coach: we need someone with a bit of fire
I got the fire...if you got the weed
- Cody Journell
I think you got that backwards
No he got it right. Journell was so dry he had to rob people with a paintball gun to get it.
Jermaine Hinkson for o-line coach!
That's a leg I can step on...
I threw this out there a few weeks ago, but I'll throw it out again: What if Moorehead was promoted to OC?
Keeps (presumably) our best offensive coach on the staff, and buys us a few years before he inevitably bounces for a better gig somewhere else.
Maybe alleviates some of the concerns that a new OC would need "his guys." I don't know what his offense would look like, but I have to assume some of "his guys" are already on the roster.
I don't think it will happen, but it's intriguing.
not a bad idea...
I also like the idea of Doc Holiday from Marshall!!!
You know, just like promoting James Johnson to head coach worked out so well for us in basketball.
If we're trying to rebuild, I want a guy with a proven track record and not some unknown who could tank us worse than we imagine. We've been down the unproven path before, and its not one I want to revisit anytime soon.
The thing is, I don't think we're trying to rebuild. I think we are trying to win enough games in the next two years where Frank can "go out on top." That bar is lowered every season, every week. It may be 8 wins now.
So if we can't get a OC we are excited about and we think that Moorehead or Shane can handle it, I'm not against that plan. It's better than keeping Loeffler.
We're a 5 win team that just lost a game where the defense shut out the worst team in the ACC and we still managed to lose.
If we're not immediately going into rebuild mode this offseason, we're absolutely foolish.
Oh, I think we are in a very foolish position right now.
I have always been a "Beamer deserves the right to go out on his own" guy....until this weekend. After the Wake game, I became a "Beamer must go now" guy. I love Beamer and I think he even knows this. I even think he would like to find a replacement like Mark Richt who could take over and keep Bud and some of his assistants.
Surprisingly, I haven't seen my change in mentality repeated much here. I thought there would be a groundswell this week that Frank needed to go. And, in my opinion, if he he doesn't go, we're really screwed. We can't recruit. We can't hire the OC we want. Someone said somewhere last night that "every year Beamer stays puts the program back two more years." I think that's accurate.
I'd say the bar is at 6 wins now. As long as we keep the bowl and UVA whuppin' streaks going, they can rationalize keeping everyone.
On the other hand, if we end up becoming LOLVT with a losing record, heads will roll.
I'm not interested in 6 wins becoming the new 10 wins.
If we promote Shane to OC, I might seriously consider burning everything VT related that I own. And my Basement is literally painted with a giant VT logo with a maroon and orange stripe going around the entire floor...
You really weren't looking for resale value, were you? haha
Duffwoman would be super-pissed.
ooooooo yeahhhhhhhh
I already burnt my VT stuff after the Boise State game. Had to pay my wife 30 bucks for the flag! If nepotism brings Shane to the OC I will burn my new stuff and scratch VT off the diploma and ink in uva. I am now throwing up.
Man, did Beamer pour toxic waste in your breeding stream?
This is a fair point. But I'm not sure how congruent the Johnson analogy is.
First, we're not talking about promoting him to head coach. He'd still be an assistant. And honestly, as impressed as everyone seems to be with Moorehead, can you say he hasn't earned a promotion? Or at least on his way to one?
You're right though, it is definitely a compromise. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might be the best compromise for our situation. I just don't see us getting a homerun hire without burning everything down, which I'm not ready to see happen just yet.
Mark Richt is that guy. Bud will never be the HC at VT.
that would be quite the meteoric rise...
graduate assistant to power 5 conference offensive coordinator in a year.
no way that works out well. he's doing a great job, but the dude is new to being a position coach. i don't see how he could have already formulated an entire offensive system in his mind after coaching wide recievers for a year.
It would be a somewhat of a gamble. I'll concede that. But he hasn't been a GA since 2009. That's GA to Power 5 OC in six years. Still pretty fast, but not completely unheard of (*cough* Chip Kelly *cough*).
He also played in the NFL. I'm guessing he knows a little bit about offense. Also as a young position coach I'd have to imagine he wants to be an OC/HC one day. As such he has to think about what he would do and what offense he'd design and run.
i was under the impression he was a GA at stanford prior to arriving in blacksburg.
His official title at Stanford was "offensive assistant for wide receivers." He was a GA at New Mexico in 2009.
Yep, and this is where my James Johnson analogy comes from.
Will he likely be a great OC one day? Sure, but he needs more time, and he needs to develop his talents at a school where he isn't going to be trying to build from the ground up. When we hired Johnson, we needed a guy with a tried and tested plan to get us back, not someone who was learning the ropes with on the job training. Moorehead is just not ready to take that next step, he needs more experience.
Definitely a fair point. I'm just not sure how you gauge whether a coach is or isn't ready to take that next step.
I do not know the answer to that question (if I did, I would be making hundreds of thousands working as a coach or athletic director somewhere).
What I do know is that we are absolutely not the right place for a guy trying to prove himself in his first OC gig. Much like our situation we had in basketball when we fired Seth, we need someone with proven experience who knows what it takes to take a really, really bad situation and make it at least serviceable in a relatively short order. What we absolutely don't need is to hire a completely green coach with zero experience the reigns to this legitimate dumpster fire of an offense and expect him to make diamonds out of dogcrap. It wouldn't be fair to the coach and it wouldn't be fair to the program. Its in everyone's best interests to NOT proceed down that path. Wait til we have some legitimate momentum and a good foundation with staying power to build upon, then we're ready for the experiments.
yanno, i really hadn't thought of this. ideally, you would want a new OC to at least have a say in who his position coaches are right? i don't see beamer letting stinespring go, much less his own son...
I hear a lot of stuff about Shane but he's got a good resume' and I do not consider him to be a nepotism hire though he certainly is Frank's son.
He will not have a problem finding work, that's for sure.
from Wiki:
in 14 years that is GT, UT, Miss St. USC, VT.
Let's remember something here. Edmunds was not an RB when he came to VT.
VT RBs had NO fumbles last year.
We haven't had many RB fumbles this year, though they have come at bad times.
Shane is not a bad coach at all.
i'm actually not arguing that shane is a bad running backs coach here, although that does seem to be a topic of great debate.
and by all accounts, stiney is a great tight ends coach.
i'm just wondering if it's fair to bring in an offensive coordinator without giving him any where close to a clean slate (position coach wise) to work with?
agreed. 100%
Maybe he had a clean slate and he choose to hire two of the best Virginia recruiters in the country.
look at our rushing totals since he's taken over the RB spot. I will say the o line has been horrific and the talent drop from david Wilson to Michael Holmes/jc Coleman is huge. he may be a good coach but just not a good RB coach.
This brings up the biggest question facing VT football right now: does Whit have the balls to release Shane and Stiney to make room for a complete staff overhaul on O.
I wouldn't release Stinespring. He's the ace recruiter on a staff of average recruiters and has done a nice job with the tight ends.
At what point though is Bryan Stinespring's "Ace Recruiter" status more a product of the "Average Recruiters" around him? Do we start to get into tallest dwarf category here?
If Losing our one alleged "Ace" recruiter meant bringing in an entire staff of good to great recruiters, wouldn't it be worth it?
My concern isn't his ability to recruit or to coach tight ends. I'm worried about how much of a tie to the past he is. Either we're gonna have a culture change on O or we aren't. And a culture change means we wipe the slate clean and bring in an offensive staff with a vision and a goal held in common. I don't think that happens with the big whistle's son and the old OC on staff.
IH time to fire up the old site and change it to "Retire CFB"!
So much for humor here.......
Or, can Whit tell Frank that he either replaces the entire staff on O or sees himself out the door? We could keep Stiney in a solely recruiting-related role.
I agree 100% that the only way we have a chance of getting a good offensive coordinator is by letting him have his choice of position coaches. This may mean losing Moorehead, which I definitely don't want to do, but it is the only way.
If it takes losing Moorehead to bring in a coach who will turn this thing around and have us playing effective football in a couple years, I make that move every day of the week and twice on Sunday. On the offensive side of the ball, absolutely nobody is irreplaceable right now, including Stinespring for his recruiting and Moorehead for his coaching.
Limits on number of coaches doesn't afford programs the ability to have coaches that solely focus on recruiting. If you moved him off the staff and make him a recruiting coordinator then you make so he is no longer able to get in front of the kids, which is where he excels. I don't really see why you don't keep him around to coach the tight ends which gives him ample time to also recruit at a high level. He's done a good job with the tight ends as evidenced by the strides Bucky has made this year.
Shane is to VT as Timecop is to UVA. Youngblood, brings in the recruits, sounds great in an interview, extremely likeable guy, disaster on the field.
How is Shane a disaster on the field?
Do you see evidence that the RB production is....not so good?
You mean the 2 guys with busted ACLs and the guy with the broken clavicle (the guy that busted out a 84yd TD run in his first game as RB against Alabama last year)? the other guy out with hamstring or the guy that had 2 strained ankles last year that had almost 200 yds last 2 games- stepping in as 4th string?
How did those guys with the ACLs do before they dropped?
I think they did pretty good, and the guy that broke his thigh last year was starting to look good again before his collar bone broke.
I'd say Shane had the next man up, prepared pretty well.
So, no.
i almost typed out this same comment word for word lol.
i think the only knock on shane has been his reluctance to stick with 1 or 2 guys for the majority of carries. which is something he should be able to correct pretty easily.
I'm not disagreeing but Walter Peyton would have struggled running behind this offensive line
Granted, disaster is probably too harsh. But since he came in we've had no rhythm with the back rotation. Noone ever has a chance to get hot as they get pulled for someone else in the RB by committee squad. Not just this year, since he arrived.
I don't doubt that he's a good coach for some positions. But the only reason he's our RB coach is that it's a position that we were able to force out an old guy (Hite) for a young hotshot recruiter (also Frank's son). I'd bet he'd make a great special teams coach, but we don't exactly have any extra coaching slots lying around.
This is a legitimate, non-troll question - is the RB coach in charge of which RB is on the field at any given time? I always assumed that was an OC duty.
Yeah, I thought the OC called the packages and the RBs were assigned to packages.
I don't think we've ever gotten a clear answer to this.
hirebryanstinespring.com
It's the only logical choice.
When I read the previous comment I laughed out loud knowing that Illinois Hokie could have heard that comment being posted in the middle of a field with no technology around for miles. As a frequent patron of IH's former site I wholeheartedly agree with his response.
Great article and analysis! Look, I don't know all the intricate details of football at either the collegiate level nor the professional level, so all of my comments usually come from the fan/"eyeball test" level. From a fan's point of view, our offense has been borderline putrid and consistently inconsistent from game to game. I apologize if I offend anyone, but that is what my eyes tell me when watching VT this season. Something went completely wrong sometime between the UNC game and the Pitt game during the bye week. I don't know what, but it is killing the offense side of the ball. Okay, venting over.
Just replacing the OC without replacing any of his assistant coaches will not change a thing. The new OC will, and IMHO should insist on his own assistant coaches. Joe is correct in his analysis of the current situation at VT. For all the reasons Joe listed plus one more; the new OC will need more than 2 years to correct the FUBAR that is VT offense and replacing Loeffler after just two seasons will put a scare in the minds of any candidate for the OC position. Now I did not realize that Loeffler's contract is up for renewal at January 2015, so perhaps it is not a big deal, but if we do replace Loeffler, then we need to replace Shane Beamer, Moorehead and Searels as well. I just do not see this happening under Frank Beamer. The man is legendary for his loyalty to his assistant coaches.
I would also like to reinforce what Joe mentioned in his article. The current HC, must buy-in to the vision of the new OC. I just keep getting the feeling, without any proof, that CFB just does not like the style of plays that OC Leoffler is calling. Now does this lead to CFB micromanaging the OC? Without proof, I am reluctant to go that route. I know that this is a topic of debate within the Hokie Community, but I get the sense that CFB leaves the offense in the hands of the OC Staff, much in the same way he leaves the DC Staff to lead the Defense. Look at CFB during the BC game. During special teams, he had plays and charts in hand, and he got the players together and called certain plays/or formations before lining them up. With the offense, it is usually Moorehead I see doing this on the sidelines during the games.
I think losing Grimes during the off-season was more crippling to the offense than what we considered at the time. I would like to remind my fellow Hokies that Grimes, in addition to O-Line coach, was also VT's Run Game Coordinator.
Look, I don't like what we have become and I believe major changes are in order, but at the same time, I realize that these changes take time and it is hard to be patient in today's world. I don't want people to think that just changing the OC will magically make VT a better program on the offense side of the ball. Also, it might take changing the entire staff to get any of these changes implemented.
The offense wasn't very good for the UNC game either. Without UNC gifting VT 3 TD's they lose that game. There was a lot of excitement about VT asserting themselves in the running game but the output wasn't great and there were long stretches were the offense went into a shell. They did put together a few really good drives but it wasn't something I would call an effective offense especially when you consider UNC has one of the worst defenses in all of college football.
I have been one of Loeffler's biggeset critics but I think he still deserves atleast 1 more year. Last year with Logan was written off as an anomaly by most on this board and this year our offense hasn't established any identity. I'm giving him the next year to see what his actual recruits can do.
There's also a great possibility of a downgrade to hire someone like Kurt Roper given atrocious and incompetent Florida's offense has been.
While none of us know the discussions behind closed doors, we all know what we have seen the last few weeks
Even ignoring CFB, there are too many cooks in the kitchen. It is a patchwork group giving us patchwork results.
too many cooks, you say?
BAHAHH Guy's we're going to be OK
I just can't anymore if that doesn't show WHit that Beamer needs to go I have no idea what will.
Credit to : Wartooth
Because he was excited that they had another chance to get WF in OT means Beamer has to go? The guy wants to win and was pumped to have another shot at it because losing sucks.
Would you have preferred if he was in the fetal position on the sideline?
Would Saban have his arms in the air after witnessing those four quarters or would his arms be crossed while he plots what he will do to fix things?
This....Im all for hating to lose, but this was nothing to be excited about.
There is nothing to be excited about after failing to score a single point against the worst team in the ACC in regulation time. Give a clap and bring the guys back, he looks like they just won something when all they did was not lose.
His reaction was basically the punch line to an awful game in the media all Saturday. Fat Frank would never have done that.
I mean... I can't fault him for being excited that we had a chance to win it in OT. Still, watching people on ESPN mock him for that was a little painful.
thanks!
Does anyone else read this article as deflecting blame away from Beamer and putting it squarely on Loeffler? I get that the article is about coordinators, and no doubt Loeffler deserves plenty of criticism (and potentially dismissal), but the article seems to go out of its way to absolve Beamer.
A quick search for Travis Haney shows that he's tight with the Beamers. Conspiracy theorists begin theorizing...
Or maybe he's just being a realist? He doesn't say the blame SHOULD lie on Lefty, he says it's GOING to, and that will likely lead to transition. I don't think anyone really expects Beamer to get the axe when there's an OC we can all blame, fire, and replace.
There needs to be a complete offensive coaching staff overhaul, excluding Moorehead if possible. Beamer has lost it, SL play calling is head scratching at best, and the development of the offensive line has been putrid.
I'm not necessarily a fan of dismissing Lefty, but good gracious, how would hiring Roper help? Even with all the talent available to them, they're still a horrifically bad offense, not to mention known for blocking their own men much more successfully than blocking their opponents.
haha same comment right below you
Right below me and people are actually commenting on it... go figure.
I am seem to draw the hate or controversy for some reason
This comment coupled with your avatar cracked me up. Take a leg.
not my work but here is the picture my avatar is based on credit kpforthree:
yeah I'm definitely not for Roper...I like the idea of trying to snag Lincoln Riley though...it would be a tough sell but with a BF defense and a team with a pretty easy ride to the playoffs, why wouldn't he take a shot with us?
I guess an OL that blocks anybody is a step in the right direction???
I dont like this quote...Lets bring in an OC from a Struggling SEC school because that will be better then what we have now.. At this point I guess I am by myself saying that Loeffler deserves one more year at the very least he will leave his replacement better offensive weapons then he came in with.
I've been trying to stay on that bandwagon, but after watching that W(t)F game and reading French's review, it just seems like he's coached himself out of a job.
I think the situation would be different if we had to actually fire him from a contract that lasts a few more years. Since it expires this coming January, don't you have to make a definitive move one way or the other? If you want to keep him, it doesn't show much faith when you only extend his contract by one year. That won't help his recruiting when they don't know if he'll even be on campus after next year.
yes. since loeffler's contract is up in january, wouldn't that mean we would have to extend his contract to give him another year on the job?
is there any way that happens?
i'm not saying Roper's the answer here. but by all accounts, the florida disaster wasn't on him.
he was a key cog in cutcliffe's duke renaissance too, right?
....this feels.....all so similar......
*gasps*
he's right
the more i think about it...
i've never seen roper and loeffler in the same place at the same time...
Nah, Frank's not buying that.
If VT is making a change at coordinator for a proven commodity, we need to be prepared to let others go if they don't meet the new guys philosophy or coaching scheme. Here is my take on the coaches that I would like to see kept if possible, in order.
1) Moorehead. Would hate to see him leave chances are anybody new would want to keep him. Great recruiter and the wide receivers really do do their own thing compared to the meshing of the offensive line, QB coach, RB coach, and TE coach.
2) Stinespring. Would hate to see him leave as he might be our best recruiter and is actually a good TE coach. But we could move him to a recruiting coordinator position out of coaching if we needed to. It would be a pay cut, but lets be honest is anybody else going to hire him as a position coach? Whit has said in the past there is money available for recruiting that Beamer hasn't taken advantage of in the past.
3) Searels. Believe it or not, I am not giving up on him. Let's be honest it is the very rare athlete that is ready to play offensive line before they are 20. Most spend at least 1 year redshirting to gain muscle, size, and learn formations before being called on for play time. He is dealing with 3 injuries that have taken players out for the year and 2 other coaches recruits. One additional liability is that he and the OC might not have been on the same philosophy for blocking schemes etc. If the new OC wants zone and Searels wants power, either Searels either needs to demonstrate compliance or he SHOULD be gone.
4. Little Beams. He has a good resume for other positions. Last year we had no RB fumbles, this year each one has fumbled at least once. We have not had a good rotation for two years, how much of that is lack of a Flip, or RMFW I don't know. The injuries this year have been horrible, but we didn't have a great running game before they started getting injured. I think his name definitely has to be on the chopping block.
5. Loefler, or the QB coach. That is another potential hickup remember that Scot is currently the QB coach. Our QB whisperer has now seen two QB's regress over the season under his watch. But I think he is gone regardless, I don't think he can survive the Wake game even if he rolls UVA 38-0 and wins a bowl game.
hrm?
The TE coach seems to be doing great work the past 2 years with Kline and Hodges - maybe we promote him to OC? Any experience?
Seriously, it would may be great for Frank to call in a favor to Ralph Friedgen (sp?) to step in for the next few years. He knows the league, is a proven offensive coach, won't rock the Beamer boat, and has the respect of the HC. His offense is also somewhat suited to the players we've been recruiting - pass first QB's.
Ralph is also currently working at Rutgers where there are nowhere near the expectations.
Offensive recruiting would take a hit. If we make a change then it has to be with the long term plan in mind. Morris w a hciw type deal would help recruiting but that isn't happening. I don't see Whitt paying the type of money it would take to get him from Clemson.
So...Moorehead to OC, Bud to HC, Stiney to recruiting position, Gray to DC, fire the rest of the offense.
Is that what I'm hearing? I'm cool with it, I just want to clarify.
I'd be good with 2/3 of the three. I figure that there is some sarcasm there but Moorehead to OC would be a no for me. I want him on the staff, but that is a huge risk.
If we do get a new OC, the main position coach that really matters with that is the OL coach because of the type of system the OC will want to run. Zone blocking vs man blocking. I would like to keep Stiney and Moorehead. Shane can go or be moved to ST. The RB rotation has been a disaster with him the last 2 years so I would like to see someone else make those decisions.
Moorhead isn't ready for oc. That would be bad.
And you know this how? Moorehead is an unknown for sure, but I don't think anyone on this board (unless they've interviewed him for the job) can say if he is or isn't ready. What I do know is that he is an exciting guy to watch and listen to, brings a ton of energy to recruiting, and the position he coaches has exceeded expectations for the 2 years he's been here. On the surface he seems like he's working towards the OC role, at some point someone is going to take a chance on him.
Bring Steiney back.
Just hear me out on this: we have never had to wait until the final minute of the game to score (Miami) in the last couple decades, and we have never ended regulation with ZERO points in a long time, both have happend this year. Steiney knows how to work in the lateral passing and sideways running game (something VT has stuck with even with a new OC).
My question: What is the worse that could happen? We get shut out at Wake with bowl eligibility on the line? We rely on our defense to win games and keep the team competative?
Seems like Loeffler got a bad hand with 3 starting RBs going down and no real solid QB to run 3rd-and-Logan plays with; but this team is unwatchable on offense and at least with Steiney it was a step up from that; maybe frustrating but not god-awful.
Who is with me: SCREEN PASS FOR STEINEY
I could hit myself in the nuts with a rubber hammer before our next game because it would be slightly less painful to endure but that doesn't mean it is the best option.
watching the Wake game was like replacing the rubber hammer with a metal sledghammer. Rubber (Steiney) is an upgrade; gotta think positive
I'm not necessarily with you, but I like your moxie. Reminds me of a young me. Perhaps even a few years older.
The worst that could happen would be losing at home to LOLUVA with bowl eligibility on the line. Reminds me of a few years back when my Redskins and the Cowboys played the final game of the season with the playoffs on the line. Winner goes in, loser goes home. Redskins (aka good guys) won. Hoping for something similar this Friday...
If we had followed the Stinespring Principle of Run-Run-Deep Pass on Saturday, I bet the Hokies would have at least won 3-0. J.C. would've had a couple of more chances to break off a big one, and one of the long interceptions probably would have better flipped the field for the defense than some of those punts.
I'm in, dude. 3-0 over the Deacs is better than this.
First time poster here, long time reader....
I was born/raised in Atlanta, and most of my friends are Auburn Alums.... Im sure you know where im going with this.
Loeffler is a joke. Gene Chizik was fired from Auburn because he hired Lefty. Auburn was pathetic in 2012, PATHETIC, they won ZERO SEC games that year. What happened the years in between having Lefty? National championship appearances.
I knew the moment we hired him what we were getting; a no identity, no rhythm, garbage offense.
Please, please, please Beamer, fire this guy.
Im out, GO HOKIES
So many new faces around here recently! Welcome and have a leg!
Lefty didn't have a qb either. Newton went pro and Marshall was a transplant.
Everyone knows that. Point still stands. Auburn has much better players than VT. Again, they did not win 1 SEC game that year, w/ losses to Ole Miss, Miss State and VANDY. AND, they squeaked out an overtime win against Louisiana-Monroe.....
Guy has had his chance, move along. Im tired of this notion that he will be a good coach, have a good system, SCORE points, if he has the talent, has healthy players, has a QB, has an O-line, etc. He certainly hasn't had the best circumstances, but coaches overcome deficiencies, turn weaknesses into strengths.
Im done with this vent. Hopefully VT is done with this offense, whatever it is.
I was one of the Lefty apologists early in the year, there were enough offensive flashes that I thought given another year to get more of his players in place that we might have something... but WF was my last straw, there's just no way to excuse that offensive performance (or lack thereof)
This is exactly what I saw as well, and the same thread applies exactly to the game we just witnessed:
http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2014/october/17/tragedy-offensive-coordinator-scot-loeffler
Some people will say that Auburn was a completely different situation than Virginia Tech, but I disagree. Gene Chizik basically let Malzahn do whatever he wanted on offense as long as he was successful. The 2010 national championship was basically won because of Malzahn. I really don't think Chizik had any part of that offense. So, it's clear that he would let the coordinators do their thing as long as it was working. However, when Loeffler was hired to run his offense (in his own words a multiple, pro-style, run heavy offense), it became clear that it was a dumpster fire and he couldn't take advantage of Auburn's talented players. Yes, they were recruited for a different system, but a "multiple" system is inherently supposed to be flexible and play to the players' strengths. Now here is my theory on what happened next: basically, Chizik felt the need to try to guide the offense in a better direction, to prevent an ongoing dumpster fire of an offense. However, the lack of execution and adjustments created the same results.
Now look at the current situation with Loeffler at VT. My theory is that Loeffler had complete autonomy over the offense until Beamer noticed it was a dumpster fire. So Beamer, like Chizik, tried to guide Loeffler's dumpster fire of an offense in the right direction (and the increased running plays worked well and got the offense going more). However, the same lack of execution, adjustments, rhythm, and all of the other negative observations from the Auburn article again reared its ugly head. This indicates that something lacking in how Loeffler teaches his players to execute and how he constantly fails to make in-game adjustments.
I really think that Loeffler had full control of the offense at the beginning at Auburn and Virginia Tech. However, due to the abysmal results, can you really blame Chizik or Beamer for trying to guide the atrocious offense back in the right direction? In all problems, the best way of solving it is to identify the root of the issue, which is Loeffler's offense to begin with. If his offense wasn't horrible, there would be no need for an intervention. Loeffler got Chizik fired (who was like a figurehead for the 2010 season), and he'll probably get Beamer fired as well (who has basically a figurehead ever since special teams has fallen off).
Glad you re-posted that link, I never read that thread.
Starting 2 true freshman rbs this year I think speaks volumes on Shane's behalf. There was a time when it would have been JC or bust considering Trey was out early. I agree with Head Beamer on the lack of flow in play calling. Nothing seems to really build on anything else consistently which is on Loeffler. However, the QB situation has Head Beams all over it. My personal opinion is Brewer was promised a season if he didn't get hurt and helped the team which he did in besting OSU. Remember their defense was the best! We put 28 points on them.
The qb position is what hurst us tight now as much as anything else. I really want to see Motley a lot this weekend and an excited what Ford can o this coming spring.
I think Brewer got the job because he edged out Leal and Motley hurt his back and couldn't practice in the summer.
The way we've felt after Wake Forest
is the same thing OSU fans felt after Virginia Tech.
hmmm
Ouch. Almost enough for me to feel sorry for them
Almost.
I dunno, if I was an OSU fan, I'd have been quite surprised after losing to VT. It would have been a numbing-shocked feeling.
Can't really say that I'm all that surprised by what happened a couple days ago. The way it played out, maybe slightly, but the result? Not too difficult to believe.
Granted, both feels suck.
In a way, that kinda means OSU lost to wake...suck on that lemon awhile Buckeyes!
The other issue is the inability of Loeffler to get a prized recruit qb, I mean a 5-star who could come in and play. He tried a heck of a lot for 2014 and no one came here. Durkin and Ford are both good but they are a work in progress. For 2015, some schools are getting 3 QB on their roster 2 of which are 4 star quality, while we have none. The QB coach/OC should be able to get a top notch guy. I also don't think Searels, Stinespring, Shane and Moorehead are on the same page resulting in some of those penalties. It also make sense that they might not be nuanced on Lefty's system because its baffling on the play-calling. I think I saw Shane and Moorehead jaws drop on one play-call where we turned it over. I think its arrogant also that we had a 4-star QB that they turned into a TE, I think Bucky would have been a better QB than Brewer and he was recruited for it. I would definitely keep Moorehaed, keep Shane but maybe give him special teams, stinespring on te and running backs.not sure about searels, has knowledge but he was in a certain place at texas in a different environment. Until we dish out some money for a top notch Offensive coordinator mind and give him the crew he wants, nothing is going to change around here. I look at a guy like moorehead last season when we didn;t have many good receivers, yet he worked tireleslly with them and then this year he goes out and gets his guys at WR. But lefty to me is all talk, and his play-calling is just as bad as Mike O'Cain
I'm not completely sold on Chad Morris as OC. Has anyone seen Clemson with Cole Stoudt as QB. That team looks eerily similar to VT expect they can score a touchdown once a game and maybe a couple of FGs. Granted, Clemson was explosive on offense when they had Taj Boyd as QB with Sammy Watkins at WR. But was it the OC that made the offense explosive or the pure athletic talent of the skill position players? Does anyone have the stats on the games where Chad Morris was OC but did not have Taj Boyd and Sammy Watkins? Would love to see if the success continues beyond some freakishly gifted athletic players on the offense.
Cole Stoudt threw 3 absolutely terrible INT's in the GT game. 2 were pick 6's.. The D blew up the screen play Cole scrambled and then threw it in the direction of the called "screen play".. It was easily picked off for a 80 yard pick 6.. I have faith that Brewer would have fallen down 11 yards behind the LOS/thrown away
The point being that Clemson is not exactly lights out this season. Watson gets hurt almost every time he is on the field against a decent defense and Cole Stoudt is, well Cole Stoudt. So if Chad Morris is this offensive coordinator genius, why is Clemson so terrible this year? They knew Cole Stoudt would play this season ever since Watson was hurt. At the very least, they knew Stoudt would be a back-up QB.
I wouldn't say Clemson has been terrible this year. Yeah they lost to UGA tied 21's at half and FSU and GT but they put up 50 vs UNC, 41 against NC State, and have struggled but Won their close games. Stoudt has 9 INT vs 6 Td's, however over half his INT's are for pick 6's I believe..
They're still ranked #21 put up 140+ rushing yards 92nd and 250+ in the air 44th. Points for 29.6 60th
We're unranked put up 137 rushing yards 99th and 224 in the air 67th.. Points for 23.3 101st
If Bud had an offense that put up 29.6 points a game we would possibly be undefeated and ranked in top 4 especially with the win vs OSU.
And let's not forget that Clempson sent Brewer our way!!!
And may currently be trying to send Swag Kelly here, too
Please stop repeating this. I know its out there, but I keep getting indigestion every time I am reminded of this fact. I'm trying my hardest to pretend this ain't happening. I thank you for your cooperation.
What about Ben McAdoo assuming that the Giants release Coughlin? Not sure we could afford him but would sure love to get someone like him. He also falls under a great coaching tree and has experience coaching QBs including Rodgers.
Thoughts on a Doc Holliday / Bill Legg / Bud Foster staff? One concern, the WVU tie, but clearly they are getting it done at Marshall. Does Bud desire to be a head coach? I'm okay with Bud named as the HC in waiting, he clearly has earned it.
The worldview of this program needs to expand past the Appalachian mountains.
It has.
Moorehead came from the west coast, Searels from TX, Grimey and Lefty from the south.
And this is the first roster in recent memory that has so many non-Virginians on it. Brewer, Shai, I Ford, Cam, Malleck, Luther, Dadi, Kyshoen, All of the fullers, Jmclaughlin.
If I'm going shopping, I will check the stores in my backyard before I drive cross town.
Just my opinion, I like Doc a lot. I feel that WVU made a big mistake by not handing him the reigns. If Bud isn't our new HC, Doc is one I'd be pleased about. Not that I know anything about how he'd fit, if he'd come, or anything really. Just really like what he's done with Marshall.
A lot of posts anecdotally reference that a new coach will need "2-3 years" to "right the ship" or something similar. Is that in reference to recruiting better players? Is it having several years to get players used to a new set of plays?
As fans we all seem to think that if we called "better plays", we'd do better, immediately, with the players on the field. How would that be any different if a new OC came in and started calling "better plays" next season? Why is there a suggestion that it will take years to get there? Now I'm not suggesting we're going to win the ACC next season, but I would expect an immediate improvement.
I might be over simplifying, but it seems like the OC job here would be a golden opportunity. We've got a great TE in Hodges, talented young receivers in Ford and Phillips, and a number of good running backs. The O-line has some building blocks in place and maybe could do better with a simpler system. More than anything though, the expectations are so low that even a middling offense would be a major improvement.
I believe that each OC has his own system with his own terminology. The basic principles might be the same, but how you execute the plays might be different. This is an over-simplified example but it will get my point across. When I was an aerospace engineer, I was trained to take any calculated value to a minimum of four decimal places, in some cases 6. Precision was important. I now work as a civil engineer and I am constantly reminding myself that I must round-up to the nearest whole number. In some cases, to the nearest ten if I'm calculating earth works quantities. So while engineering is engineering, how you achieve those design goals can be important.
It takes time to learn a new system. In my case, three wonderful years at VT civil engineering program. The mind set was different and also the units used in the equation. Any new OC will want his own staff, familiar with his processes and his terminology that they use to transfer ideas at a rapid rate to each other. The new OC will also want to have his own recruited players to run his system. Hence, unfortunately, I believe we will be with OC Loeffler for one more year.
If Loeffler was in school right now, he would've failed out with this game being the final exam... after two years of ranking near the absolute bottom of his class.
If someone has stated this already then im sorry...but what injury did Brewer sustain that he mentions in the article? I seem to remember speculation that he was playing hurt, but dont remember any evidence of it coming out from Beamer or anyone. Just found it interesting that he said "Brewer was serviceable before his injury."
His back injury at Texas Tech.
more than likely the one he got at texas tech..... he was serviceable prior to that, he is no more. not my opinion just saying i think thats his. i think personal brewer is rattled by all the hits and sacks hes taken and his eyes are no longer up field. with protection i think he is a decent QB decent not good. the 1st it was the TOs and then it was the sacks and now its both.
I hope that Whit and Frank and any big shots with input will seriously not be concerned with what they perceive to be the public's wishes when they make a decision about the future of this program.
I completely disagree. I hope they're seriously paying attention to the public, and especially the ones that buy season tickets and donate to the Hokie Club. Once that specific segment gets so fed up with what is going on they stop buying tickets and going to games (which we've already seen start up this year) it is really, really hard to get them back. Financially, we are not a program that can withstand the onset of fan apathy, especially in football. Football, and specifically football season tickets and Hokie Club donations that go along with those tickets, is what legitimately drives our finances annually. We have way too many expenses at the current time to see our major source of revenue wither up because the fans are getting frustrated while we're sitting around waiting for a lame duck head coach to go out on his own accord.
If Whit can get a more than capable hoops coach to come to Blacksburg then surely he can find an adequate OC
I believe Loeffler has a great football knowledge, and when players can execute, he looks like a genius (Ohio State game). But the man simply does not know how to keep it simple. Brian Stinespring may have been horrible with X's and O's, but when he found something that worked, he stuck with it (Brandon Ore 2006, 2-headed monster 2007, Darren Evans 2008, etc.), and when he was given a talented offense, he managed to make them halfway successful (2010 team, esp. ACCCG). Loeffler does not understand the "keep it simple, stupid" method. You take Stinespring's simplicity and Loeffler's knowledge of the game and you may have yourself a decent offense; not great, but decent.
By the way, in no way, shape, or form am I trying to say Brian Stinespring was a good OC. A decent OC could have gotten us to the national championship 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2011; not every year, obviously, but maybe, just maybe, one.
Who woulda thunk we would reminiscence of the Stinespring offense days.
Just gonna throw this out there... putting my pessimistic guy hat on...
Coach Frank likes to talk about a play here and a play there. Well, this team is a pick 6 and two fumbles (UNC game), and a missed FG (Duke game) from staring down the barrel at a 3-8 record right now.
By that same logic, we could nearly be 11-1.
12-0. Take away all our bad plays and fumbles in the Miami game and we would be #1 in the nation right now.
I wish . . .
We hire Eric Bischoff as the new HC, he forces Whit to change the school colors back to The Black & White, we flip every 5 star SEC commit and win all of the championships for the next 2-3 years before it all crashes down and Bud can be the guy after the guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzFnWAB2qEg
New new new new new....
Complicated? Come on now. You've got a young and beaten up OL. How do you help them protect your QB? Roll out (like in the OSU Game). Move the pocket, 2 step reads, veer with trailing pitch RB, sprint outss, reverses. It ain't rocket science. It's chess. Vertical and horizontal integration. We've got play makers - and can't distribute the ball! That is the OC's job. Call plays that work with the personnel and the 5'11" QB that you have!!!
One question I have is does the result, no matter the circumstances require a change? The team in good health beat OSU in Ohio against a rather good defense. We know the team was thin at several positions even before the rash of injuries. We know we have great young talent, and we have seen those glimmers of progress and what the future should hold.
It just seems like we may have let our expectations get over inflated after OSU this year and now we are in hair on fire mode. I have no idea what the right answer is, but I do know that:
A) The powers that be make business decisions, fans usually make emotional ones. Somewhere in the middle is the least wrong answer.
B) Always check for the adams apple when in a Tijuana brothel.
C) A loss to UVA this week will make a lot of this thread look tame...
I won't refudiate (anyone?) that
but putting a whopping 0 points up against a 2-8 ACC bottom feeder is pretty damning
I don't care how good their defense is (it's not as good as UVAs) that is absolutely inexcusable.
I was all for giving Loeffler his due time and I was patient with him for most of this season. However, our offense has steadily gone backwards and this performance (can you call it that?) is the last straw. I just can't see any scenario where Loeffler will be retained. As I understand it his contract is up for renewal this January and I think he would be hard-pressed to get that renewal. You can blame injuries all you want but French has clearly shown in his reviews that the lack of adjustment/congruity in play calling has doomed this offense on more than one occasion.
Scot Loeffler may very well be outsmarting himself. He might have a great grasp of Xs and Os. But we're not seeing the results on the field at the end of his second year. So let me ask, what reason do we have to expect anything to change in year 3? Year 4? Year 7? At what point do you decide enough is enough? I think the time is now!
Some of us do have high expectations. Mine were low(er). I expected to slog through an ugly season (but still end up +.500) and see gradual improvement offensively as the season wore on. I expected to lose to anOSU and beat Wake. That, to me, would be an example of progress.
Anyone feel like Hokie Nation sold our soul for that OSU win? I think the devil has been collecting his dues ever since.
It's interesting that the talking points on Loeffler were put out there by Haney. Also the oh so convenient mention of Kurt Roper. Roper will be available since Muschamp is fired at Florida. Roper only went to Florida this season, so he's got time left on his contract, and would come at a discount. Supposedly he is a QB guru, and runs an uptempo offense. However, in this job he did not, he ran a ground game slow down kill the playclock offense. Even though he has the SEC pedigree, there is some discussion about just how well his offense actually produce.
Every single one of those things describes Kurt Roper. Every single one of those things also described Scot Loeffler two years ago. Is Frank really going to do this again, just to buy enough time to coach the game at Bristol before retiring?
This season, Florida is averaging 44 rushes & 26 passes per game. That is almost a duplicate of what VT did during the 200's. We basically ran the ball 45 times a game and passed it 25 times a game. That only changed Tyrod's senior season, when we began passing it a little more.
By the way, Tech has scored only 27 TD's on offense this season. And we all know how bad we look on offense. Florida has scored 29, only two more TD's than us. They rank in the 90's in rushing yards per carry, and in total offensive yardage. Their offensive failings this year are a large part of why they've underperformed and why their head coach is getting fired.
So, who wants to bet we hire Kurt Roper, since the whispers have already gone to certain media people?
he beat UGA with out throwing a pass in the 2nd half! i know one person who would loveeeee to see that!!!
wooohooooooo no passes!!!!!
IMHO, I think people need a little perspective here. I'm not going to comment on Lefty being fired or re-hired as there is a lot that goes into a major decision like that, but I think the overall nature of the problem (on offense at least) has been this: Lefty started this season wide open....With a high octane offense, with a good complimentary running game and great play action plays that caught people off guard. Clearly, that's how we beat OSU.
However, once Brewer threw some picks, I think FB reeled in the offense (and Brewer) quite a bit, and we got conservative. You can't do this with a high octane offense that is set up with a high risk, high reward style. Sure, you may throw a few picks, but that's the nature of the beast when you commit to tossing around the football like we did early in the season. Either you pitch it around 40+ times or you are a "run first" team.
I also don't think it's any coincidence that as our RBs started falling, especially the early ones, the offense became more and more inept. Lefty's offensive scheme is predicated on lots of passing, especially off play action and moving the sticks on third and short. While Coleman has been a decent runner of late, he is no where near what we had early in the season with our two big backs. They were rarely denied on short yardage situation, especially 3rd down (which we have been horrible at of late).
Additionally, FB's comments in the media about our QB and "taking a look at things" and "opening it up this week" doesn't help the situation. Playing QB is unlike playing any other position in the world....And confidence is paramount. For example, look at what Spurrier did at Fla when he yanked QBs in and out....None of them played up to their potential...Too much "fear of failure."
So, if you combine FB's reeling in the offense and the injuries at RB......Coupled with the sometimes awful OL play, you now have an offense that has been completely neutered. No disrespect to Wang or any of the other lineman, but you cannot just "move over" and play center. After the QB, it's probably the 2nd most important position on the field. Brewer has taken a lot of heat for sacks & some bad passes and some of it is certainly justified, but in many cases, there have absolute jail brakes coming at him in droves.
To solve this puzzle, all one has to do is look at the past....We have not had a wide open offense since Ricky Bustle left (after a fall out w/ FB over this very thing)....Very good offensive coaches have come and gone steadily.....Tranquill, Rogers, O'cain & etc. Even coaches like Tony Ball left because he saw the handwriting on the wall. It's important to note that all left in frustration, not because they got a better deal. Some may argue Ball's situation at GA, but all you need to do is read his parting comments in the media, and you have a feel for what was going on at the time.
I was no Stiney fan, and people complained mercifully, but in his defense, I think a lot his "style" and scheme came directly from FB.....A clone of sorts. This probably also explains why FB was so defensive of Stiney for so long.....
Thus, in summary, I think this all comes back to FB and his preferred style of football...."run first." That's a great philosophy when you have the personnel to do that, but we do not right now. Our best teams here at VT have been when we've had a reliable future NFL back in our backfield. We have not had this for the last couple years, and there lies at least the foundation of the problem (due to the preferred method of offensive attack). No coincidence that after Wilson left early for the NFL, Logan struggled quite a bit. Furthermore, while our OL has never been "great," it's been much better in past years than it has been this year. This year's OL has really struggled. I know they are trying hard, but it just isn't happening.
Just my .02 and nothing more.....
Yup you get it, a new member posted the best 2 cents I have ever seen! Great post and enjoy TKP its the bestest. !
Thanks much. This is a great site. I appreciate the comment.
Here's the thing. We have multiple issues with this organization.
Take special teams. We've sucked at it as of late. More teams block our kicks now, then we do of theres. We have had kickers transfer out of our program to go on and be stellar kickers at their new respective schools (W&M as an example). Our coverage teams are bad, our return yardage is bad. We've had a steady decline in special teams for a good 5-6 years. This is on Beamer.
Our running game. Shane Beamer's only claim to fame was David Wilson's stellar season of 2011, which was after 3 years of being under Hite. 2012 was a horrid drop off in talent in the backfield. Some of this was due to poor recruiting, some of it was due to poor management of the eligibility of David Wilson, and then there was the whole problem with the OL. This is a fault of Shane and Frank.
We now have an OC that sits in the press box right next to the former OC, and how has his backs coach being the son of the head coach. That's crazy awkward. I don't know who could do that successfully, no matter how good they are. The 'argument" that was made public by Shane following Western Michigan with regards to telling Loeffler that we are going to run it spelled doom for the rest of the season. It made a huge problem worse.
Regardless, Loeffler's play calling at times seems genius then at others, borderline stupid. Take last week as an example. We picked up a few first downs. We made it to the Wake 40 yard line, or there abouts, and JCC rattles off 2 good runs to get us 3rd and short. Loeffler decides to call for a 35 yard pass play to Ford streaking down the sidelines. We have yet to complete a long pass play all season, yet he gambled on that instead of calling a play go get us 2 yards and continue to move the sticks. It killed what was looking to be a promising drive. I don't really even understand why Loeffler likes to brag that his offense is complicated. In the business world, you are trying to get something done, are you really going to hire the guy who brags about his complicated method, or the guy who does things a bit more simple? Some of Loeffler's blocking schemes are so complex that there have been times where the pulling linemen have run into each other. Loeffler is not a good OC. I sort of wonder if he's even a good QB coach as Brewer looks completely different now.
The bottom line is the problems with the Tech program right now is systemic. We need a new HC, and we need new blood on the offense, this means Stiney needs to go too. I say give Bud another raise to keep him on as DC and find some money to get a new HC and let the new HC find a new OC.
You nailed it...
Now, I'll throw out this quandary.....
Hypothetically, we hire a new HC, but the AD requires Bud and his staff to stay on because he is adored by Hokie nation. What respectable HC would take that job or any job with those kind of prerequisites?? Almost every aggressive, successful HC is going to want to bring in their own staff...All the way down to equipment manager. Just like Buzz did when he took the basketball job. He even brought his own medical staff.
Thus, are the Hokie faithful willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater....i.e. Bud and & company with FB??
Not sure many have thought this situation through. JMHO.
Buzz didn't walk into a program with one of the most successful assistant coaches for the past 2 decades either... surely there are prominent head coaches out there that would jump for joy at the proposition of walking into VT guaranteed that Bud Foster would be staying on staff
I was just about to say that, very few HC's wouldn't want Fosterfense.
You're right. BUT, no worthy head football coach will take a major job with the defensive staff already in place. That was my point.
I always felt bad for OC Leoffler because of this exact situation. How often must the man wonder if Stinespring is trying to get his job back and how to deal with Shane Beamer. What a mess of a situation from the OC's perspective.
Stinespring and Loeffler are both professionals and are getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to coach this offense. They should have no problem getting over whatever egos may be present and working together.
Stiney sitting next to him is continually brought up and I think the fans are making a far bigger issue of it than the coaches. Ever think that Stiney is now relieved that he doesn't have that hanging over his head anymore? You think he didn't realize that he wasn't very good? I think he is probably happy to be back doing what he is good at recruiting and position coaching.
He's still getting paid the same as if he were the OC, so he is probably happy about that part of it.
This thread is becoming rich of of everyone's 2 cents, so I will hypocritically throw mine in as well.
Simply enough, our offense in 10 years behind where it needs to be. College football is about adapting, and we haven't changed in a long time. When I watch games I feel like our offense is called via the "Recent Play Call" in football video games. POWER RIGHT, OFF-TACKLE LEFT, 3rd and 7.... 5 YARD SLANTS, PUNT. Rinse and Repeat.
It's a combination of our continued poor OC hires, and a organization wide view which prefers to win games 10-7 for some reason (which also leads to 0-0 ties when playing poorly). CAN WE PUT SOME POINTS ON THE BOARD. With the defense we've had, and will most likely continue to have.... we only need to score 28+ points to win a majority of games we play every year. 1 touchdown a quarter. We're 101 in PPG in the country...in a weak ACC and playing 2 cupcakes. We've also had a lot of garbage time points which have inflated our already poor offense.
Every single week, I see teams hanging 50 burgers on relatively good defenses. Many of these teams don't have the quality of athletes we do IMHO... WE NEED TO EVOLVE.
If you said "describe Virginia Tech offense" to the casual fan or observer, you'd hear words like "Power running, , Clock Management, COnservative". Now right now, "describe Oregon's offense"- words like "exciting, fast paced, calculated risks, players in space"
I'm not saying to take a total 180, just infuse some life. Some other teams IMO that had less explosive/ up-tempo offensive 5 years ago- TCU, Michigan State, Georgia, Miss St. , Cal ; all putting up 40 a game.
Get players in space, run up-tempo and sub intelligently, run some pick plays, exotic formations to confuse the defense etc. WE RUN 30 times a game inside the tackles and then give the defense 30 seconds to rest between plays. Thats a bit easier to defend than a pass in bunch formation, a pick play, which never gets called.
Who did we play this year who is "more athletic"? Ohio State, Miami? This will probably be the case next year as well. 8 or 9 games against teams with less athletic offenses (not even factoring the defense). Marshawn, Shai, Bucky, Kline, Ford, Phillips, Parker, Newsome, Edmunds, Stanford.... pretty good talent. Whoever has input into our offensive philosophy next year has a lot of weapons to work with, and no excuses. We had the injury bug this year, but a good offense can slide players into correct roles and still tread forward. Our offense has been painful to watch, and until there's a major OFFENSIVE MENTALITY CHANGE within the program, it will be more of the same.
With all due respect, I think you have to look at who has the keys to the kingdom and his "overall" philosophy and not the OCs. Many turned down the most recent OC job for that very reason.
An OC can only do what the HC permits......