I have been trying to wrap my head around what is going to happen if Beamer stays. I see a ton of people saying oh we will just hire a new OC and everything else will stay the same. Oh the irony in that last sentence is sadly true. So what we change the OC but then it will be a whole new playbook and possibly a whole new blocking scheme to learn in a Spring/Summer. The funny/sad thing is that we can't even get this years scheme down and we're wanting to get rid of SL for what could very much be another OC fail waiting to happen.
I get that SL isn't the best fit for us but there comes a time when we need to think what's best for VT Football in the long run. Hiring a new OC and keeping CFB still as HC I think will push VT further down the river for a rebuild. Why make things worse if we want Beamer to go out on a decent year, bringing in a new OC will be a mess. Not to mention so called OC will be employed by VT for what 1 year maybe 2 and then the new HC will give him the boot. That looks like $$ well spent/sarcastica
IDK where I saw it but I really like the fact that someone stated that this year is a redshirt rebuild. That was a genius term because its so true. We have an OL that has been shifted to try and find the best fit. We have a transfer QB who beat out a 4 year backup and an upcoming QB who got hurt at the worst time possible. We have also lost the equivalent of 5-6 RB's during the season. Marshawn- Hernia, ankle and now ACL, Shai- ACL again, Trey- broken leg, ankle, clavicle. I think I missed one somewhere but ya'll get the point. Everything that could go wrong did and it happened after we shocked the world in beating OSU in the shoe.
Now comes Spring Ball- we will still have the Commonwealth Cup + 22 Bowl game streak and possibly a new OC or SL. We will have a completely wide open QB race ( Brewer, Motley, Ford & Durkin possibly Kelly). We quite possible could have the 2 best WR's in VT history in Ford and Phillips. We have a huge receiver in Kendrick Holland who I think could be the breakout star next year filling in for Byrn. We should have a stable full of RB's R-Freshies in DJ Reid, and Travon McMilliam ( could be Caleb 2.0 sadly) and we add McClease and Fox! Looking at the roster in regards to skilled positions this could be the best class we have had depth wise. If we do change OC hopefully we find one that will work with the type of players we have. Yeah running the ball is great but we have the roster to do what TCU/Baylor does.. (PS TCU is 28th in rushing at 218 YPG). We don't have the roster to do what Wisconsin/Stanford have so why are we even trying to mimic it blows my mind. You don't build a team like Wis/Stanford over night, and you certainly don't build a team like that by only getting 5 OL recruits in 3 years.
I guess my point is if the offense we have run the last 3-5 years isn't working why not give something else a try? By try I mean completely scrap the Coaching staff on the Offensive side other than Morehead and maybe 1-2 more people. How is TCU/Baylor so efficient on offense and we have trouble moving the ball 10 yards. We have enough skilled players that I really don't think it wouldn't take long to understand the concepts of the TCU/Baylor offense as long as we find someone has knowledge of that. AM I dumb for thinking the offense those two schools runs is most similar to what the kids run in HS? Yeah there are more people involved/different routes + more structure to it but there comes a time when athlete's just make plays with the ball in their hands.
PS TCU has 2 Offensive Co-Coordinators... Sonny Cumbie who is in his 1st year but spent 4 years at Texas Tech who also runs a similar playbook. Doug Meacham who is also in his 1st year but was QB coach/OC at Houston and 8 years at OK State so he also has knowledge with the playbook. Why not give a coach like those two above a shot at being a HC. SO what they don't have HC experience but they do have 10+ years of being in an offense that funcitons properly and can put up points. Isn't that what we want? They know how to recruit the positions for their offense, they know the ins and outs of the offense all they would need to do is find a staff that will COMPLEMENT them.
Comments
HOLY CRAP! TKP please stop with the rants as topics!!!!!!!!!
funny. its not a rant its asking what good does keeping Beamer employed for 2015 when the writing is basically on the wall? All we have to do is fill in the 2 numbers for next year..... 5-7
Fine... It's not a rant.
But every other day... sometimes twice a day, a "Keep Beamer, Fire Beamer" thread gets started. Take a page from Whit's book and access at the end of the season. Because I'm tired of reading the same circular argument. Nothing new has been brought up.
If you tell me "fine don't read these threads" I am gonna freak out. It's Hate Week Hokie Nation. Pull yourselves together.
I'm not going to tell you anything... I never said fire beamer ect ect because eh shouldn't be fired. I actually gave some valid information on 2 Co-Coordinators with ample knowledge of TCU/Baylor style offense from previous jobs and they're succeeding in their first year at TCU. I ask myself why can't we figure it out?
This wasn't even anything close to a "Keep Beamer/Fire Beamer" Topic.
Well, I wouldn't say it isn't close. A post about the state of our stadium toilets isn't even close.
This looks a lot like a "keep Beamer/Fire Beamer" comment from the poster...
But I still say this is a valid post with thought out opinions and supporting information.
The topic and content itself isn't technically a rant, but your writing style does make it appear like one of the many rants we see after losses.
To answer your original question:
My guess is that the sun will rise and we will field a football team. Beyond that no one, not even Whit, knows. I get it, I'm upset and not happy when the team looks like complete and utter poop, but maybe we all need to take a deep breath and try to enjoy something. Whit's going to do what Whit's going to do regardless of our feelings on it and that may or may not start following this offseason. I know that regardless of all of that people on this board are still going to support the team since we are all passionate fans.
As for now, it's hate week. My children haven't known a world where You!VA beat us and I don't want that to start now. I'm mustering up all the good juju I can and directing down to the Burg.
LOL. Me too.
Me too, and I DO NOT want my 9 year old's first UVA game at Lane to be the first loss in his lifetime.
Make the replacement now, Bud for HC job
Everyone assumes that with a new HC the defense stays elite.
I don't assume that. There's not anything wrong with the defense, there is a lot wrong with the offense.
Only fix the broken parts.
Fix whatever needs fixing in the offense, don't mess with the rest.
YES If anything it would make the adjustment for the new HC 10000 times easier. The new HC wouldn't have to worry as much about the Defensive side, Keep Bud and D staff and find an Offensive staff that fits your plan.
Imagine an offense that could put together two scoring drives back to back? Then imagine a rested Bud Foster defense coming back onto the field up 14-0 about to make it 21-0 with a pick 6 in the 1st quarter!
I don't have to imagine. I have seen this happen in my years of Hokie football watching numerous times.
About 6 times a season, inthe low points.
The Playoff may be a bit tougher but, I get the gist.
As long as Bud remains on staff, I don't think there is anything to worry about defensively with this program.
Our next HC (if not Bud) needs to be an offensive guru. Not just a guy that has thoughts, the guy has to be a guru that takes ownership of that side of the ball and will personally make sure that we get good fast. Have that guy come in with the understanding that, as long as Bud is willing, he can have one of, if not the best defensive coaching staff in the country at his disposal (which, as long as the coach isn't a complete a-hole, I can't imagine Bud stepping away if it means that VT becomes a legitimate national title threat in the near future... the man lives and breathes VT football, and I get the feeling that anything we do will come with strong influence and signoff from Bud). I can't see any coach not wanting to step into a scenario like that. Where they can focus purely on their thing because they know for a fact the other side of the ball is set for the long haul.
It would be an easy sell, especially if Whit opens up the bank (which, he will, because he's already shown he will, with the Buzz hire for a program that makes no money)
special teams is a mess too
This is a good point. I don't see Bud staying at VT post-beamer unless he is HC. Then the defense might stay good, but he will clearly not be able to put as much focus on it. Take Foster away and let the defense fall apart, then we will really see what a bad team looks like.
I truly believe Frank will still be walking the sidelines for VT at the Battle of Bristol. Frank loves his job/life and his confidence in himself is well documented. I just can't imagine a scenario where him and Whit are sitting in a conference room and Whit is telling him that he has coached his last game. I just don't see it.
The new OC will be at least a two year hire (I'm assuming Lefty is out after this year). There will be additional turnover involving current offensive assistants before Frank is gone. The new OC will be a better hire than most Hokie fans expect and that coach will have an opportunity to apply for the head coaching job once Frank leaves. That's how I see this playing out.
Like most of us, I'm just a poster on a fan board. I have absolutely no inside information. I just don't think Frank is going anywhere and I hope that at least the next couple years aren't as bad as this one.
GO HOKIES
At what cost, though? Right now we need to beat UVa in a home game where we're the underdog a week after getting shut out through 4 quarters in a loss to then 2-8 Wake Forest to get to a bowl game. If we don't win, the 21 year bowl streak, the 10 years of continual possession of the Cup, all bragging rights in the commonwealth, they vaporize. What's left is the last place team in the Coastal who got shut out by the last place team in the Atlantic through 4 quarters in a loss in which we never once even attempted a score before OT.
And even if we win, we're a 6-6 team going to the ACC's weakest bowl in a destination few will travel with a fanbase that has seen ticket sales steadily fall off as the season progressed while fan apathy started to show.
Either way, we're not in a good spot right now. A new Offensive Coordinator will not fix anything with our team unless they are given complete autonomy to overhaul the entire offensive staff and all offensive decisions, including the foundation of the offensive philosophy are completely stripped from the head coach. We're now in our 3rd OC running the same basic style of offense that Frank wants to run, and we're failing as badly now as we ever have. Either the coaching personnel decisions were bad (all of which were decisions made by Beamer) or the philosophy itself is so flawed it cannot be successful. Either way, nothing will change unless major changes are done to the offensive side of the ball.
I agree with everything you are saying regarding the program. I just would be shocked if Frank's last game was Friday. I don't think Whit's going to pull the trigger and I don't think Frank is ready to ride out. With that said, there is no way we go into next season with all of the same assistants - but we shall see.
No way its that easy to get the OC position filled.
Its a short term gig with no link to the HC job. There is no guarantee it is any more than a year, assurances would have to be negotiated in.
Any schmuck can apply for the HC vacancy, thats no plum!
Whit is Frank's boss. Frank may treat the ordinary VT fan with complete and utter disdain, but YBYSA Whit can deliver bad news.
Frank doesn't treat anyone with "disdain".
That's not his style. Frank knows that the program is struggling, but he most likely believes he can fix the issues. That's the kind of confidence (or "cockiness" as one former player that I have worked with in the past describes him) Frank has.
You are going to need to back that up.
Never have aI seen anything close to this from him.
Stop making up crap and work on something constructive.
He has done it during press sessions. Can't link to them cuz I don't know how to search for it.
Also when Andy in Herndon asked a question and he gave him the outta whack comment. Same type of mentality.
He does it all the time for the last 10 years or so. If he didn't he would examined whether there was an issue figured there was and then tried to fix the problem instead of lying to himself that there was a problem.
Even casual fans can see how VT plays the game, how the O executes, how the plays take advantage of the relative advantages or don't . This stuff hasn't worked for a long time. Fans have been complaining about it and Frank has never said "I think they might have a point, we're going to take a long look at our coaches / playbook / strategies, etc" during the offseason.
Frank has been wrong and the die hard fans have been right for a long time now.
So, because we're suddenly 5 and 6, Frank now treats fans with "disdain"? Interesting.
ridiculous. Frank treats fans, players, coaches and media with more respect than probably any coach in the country. A fan expecting a coach to take their opinions straight to the meeting rooms is disdainful to a coach. It is actually disrespectful for coaches everywhere to think that a coach that lives and breathes football 100 hours a week knows less than casual fans that call into a radio show.
Why is it that everyone thinks Whit is going to get rid of Beamer? Dude gets the program, but I don't see him coming in and removing a legend. He got rid of a basketball coach who hadn't been producing for years, and now he is taking out a coach with a rich history, who made the program what it is (basically made this a place Whit would want to be a part of), and who has some great talent finally filling in the ranks for the next few years?
Sorry, not so fast. Beamer will be at the Battle of Bristol.
Johnson head coach 2 years...hopefully many things were learned from that, but non shall be spoken of
Beamer over the last 4 years vs P5 teams since 2011, 19-18 (Not including losses to Cincinnati and ECU)
In Greenburg's last 4 years he was 81 - 52. Basketball is not my thing, so not sure how a P5 record would work out
In the post Bowden/Brown Era everyone knows its hard to recover and schools are better off moving along. Brown compares well to Beamer, Beamer even said it.
Bowden was forced out by his first walk on player, his prev positions coach and long time friend who became his boss as FSU President with the words, Bobby this is going to be ugly
See above, Bowden MADE FSU
won 13 ACC Championships in 15 seasons
Won 2 National Championships, FSU's First 2
Coached FSU to 5 National Championship Games
We have some good guys set to come and soon to start but there isn't much great talent coming to Blacksburg
Tennessee has great talent comming 2 (5*) DT and a (5*) WR. Clemson has great talent, (5*)WR and (5*) OT
Tenn and Clemson have 19 4* and 5* commits combined with 3 (4*) Commits from Virginia. Virginia Tech has 3 (4*) commits and all from Virginia
edit typo
Both Greenburg and Johnson are not comparable to Beamer, as neither brought the program to relevance, and neither were deep rooted.
Bowden was forced by people who had been in the program for a while. Whit is a rookie. Just don't see a newb cracking the whip like that.
There are many discussions on this site how stars don't mean much in terms of talent. UVA has some 5*, Kentucky too. Don't see that translating. Though, there is still speculation we could pull some top stars yet ourselves.
I could see Whit pulling the plug if next year is a repeat, but I think things will be different then and he won't have to.
One this could be true, but its become a business now. And 2, seriously your going to use those 2 schools. They are both in a rebuilding phase
Second. If stars truly don't mean anything for talent and the players come to school to be developed what does that say about Beamer's ability to coach player development. How good does that make him compared to Saben, Les Miles, Urban Myer, Tressel at OSU, Steve Spurier, Jimbo Fischer, Dabo Sweeny. Clemson has had twice as many players drafted in the last 4 years as Tech
Back in 1999 Tech and Beamer recruited an unknown Jake Groove and after 4 years of coaching Groove played his senior season to be named an All American and win the Rimington Trophy. Who else has come to Tech and done the same. Danny Coale was an unknown and did get good but I don't think he was an AA. Kam Chancellor was an unknown quarterback that got good but I don't think he was an AA. Duane Brown was a 3* TE and became a good OT but not an AA
Expecting unknowns to be all Americans is a little unrealistic. I think VT has done an outstanding job at player development. Cody Grimm comes to mind. Byrn isn't great but is doing well. There are countless others.
I think these two schools are good examples. How long have they been rebuilding? Seems like a while to me. Yet we won't give a legendary coach that same time.
There are many examples through college football history that could be used.
In addition, Beamer always seemed to take a piece of coal, make it play like a diamond for him. Most of those diamonds didn't amount to much in the pros due to injury, drugs, or other issues. There are more hokies in the pros now then ever before, so not sure that is a good point.
Kentucky only hired Mark Stoops 2 years ago
In that time though Kentucky's worst lost this year was to a top 35 Tennessee Team this year
Tech this year lost to a #40 ECU, #56 Boston College, #61 Pitt, #131 Wake Forest
Yea both are 5 - 6 looking for a bowl bid this year, but the losses.....
I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Bowden was content to not coach anymore and just remain on the sideline until he thought it was time to quit rolling with it. He didn't even wear a headset. It almost felt like he was daring somebody to fire him.
Brown might be a little better example, but I could argue he underachieved with what he had to work with.
I guess what I'm saying is that the situation and relationships are different from program to program.
Who, though?
Morehead? I could see him going to another school if someone offers him a better job or more money. I don't see us cutting him to bring in a "better" WR coach.
Searels? Four OL coaches in four years? Good luck with that.
Stinrspring? The guy can flat out coach tight ends and is a good recruiter. On the other hand, he's also the old OC and probably had pretty strong opinions on how to do things on offense. Can he coexist with another OC's vision? Hard to say how much (if any) this might have played into Lefty's product in the field.
Shane? RB production has plummeted under his tenure, but how much of that is injury related and how much is a product of the Newsome Effect? And would Whit have the balls to release the head coach's soon anyway?
IMO, we either have a culture change on O or don't bother. Find the right guy to run the offense, let him bring in his people and build for a post-Beamer future. Swapping out Lefty for another OC coming into the same situation probably won't solve much.
thank god someone else understands it. Its either a full swap or keep with what we have for 1 more year and pray to god that we don't go 5-7 again.
I wouldn't be surprised if any of those guys other than Shane voluntarily left after this year - especially if they can find a more stable situation elsewhere. Still think Stiney will be a head coach somewhere one day.
This now prevalent idea that we have the personnel for a spread attack but not a pro-style is confusing.
This Oline has been WAY WAY better when run blocking instead of pass blocking. We have two above average wide receivers. We have three talented tight ends when all healthy.
This team has looked best when lined up with two tight ends in a balanced set and ran the ball, not when it's been spread out five wide. Pass blocking and a consistent accuracy from the QB are key components to a spread attack, something Tech hasn't had in a while now. If the OC spent the time to actually focus on teaching a rushing attack similar to Wisconsin or Pitt or BC (and the RBS got healthy) we'd be in pretty good shape
Running a Spread Attack is not the same thing as passing the ball a lot.
I'm well aware.
The point still remains. What about this team makes you think that rushing/passing out of a spread formation, which diminishes the role of arguably our strongest position (TE), would be more successful? It doesn't make sense. Offensive lines have to be as (if not more talented) in spread attacks as pro-style.
1. With the exception of Wyatt Teller, no one on the OL is driving their man off the ball in the running game. The spacing & misdirection of a spread rushing attack has got to be an improvement from what we are doing now?
2. Our offensive linemen can't pass block. The advtange of a spread passing attack is that the QB gets the ball out within a few seconds, after 1 or 2 progressions. Look at what Shane Carden is doing at ECU.
I believe that the original poster is suggesting that there are teams out there (ie ECU) that have less offensive talent, including along the OL, yet still turn out much more productive offenses than VT. This is because they are dedicated to a spread system that takes advantage of speed, misdirection, and spacing and helps disguise talent issues.
The more I thought about it, the Loefler vs Malzahn disparity at Auburn is SL's biggest indictment. Mason - if you were an Auburn fan, would you have defended SL's dedication to a "pro-style" offense in 2012? Then what would you have done in 2013 when Malzahan turned out one of the best offenses in college football with the same players in 1 year? Spacing, misdirection, timing.
Oh, and curious, is TE really one of our strongest positions? Bucky is usually operating out of the slot and Malleck has not been that productive and has been plagued by drops this year. Kline is obviously a non-factor.
So when yous ay TE is our strongest position, I think you mean that Bucky is one of our best offensive players.
No, I mean moving forward, TE is ARGUABLY one of our strongest positions. The production out of the the TE group has unquestionably been affected by injury. If we're going to have a conversation about what the next OC will want to do (and I believe that is the purpose of this thread) then we need to talk about what the team will return next season. Bucky, Malleck, and Kline are all productive players when healthy and they need to be on the field for Tech... if only because Malleck and Kine's ability to run block complement the other strong position we return (running back).
Actually, Wade Hanson can run block well. His pass blocking leaves a lot to be desired.
Well this will take a while. Point by point then.
No no no, this is such a common misconception about the spread. If anything, having fewer blockers at the point of attack would highlight, not downplay, or offensive lines inability to win their one on one battles. Let's say you want to run the inside zone. It doesn't matter if you have two tight ends or four wide receivers in the game, your guard is gonna have to block that defensive tackle for the play to be successful.
And since when is "spacing and misdirection" only available to spread offenses? I've seen plenty of spread offenses that utilize spacing and misdirection far less effectively than Georgia Tech or Chris Peterson coached teams do. Our spacing and misdirection will improve with just about ANY new OC, which style we run doesn't matter.
Quick passing concepts aren't something that only spread passing attacks use. In fact, most of those concepts and route combinations come from the West Coast offense. You can (and many teams do) run those concepts with pro personnel... especially when you have 3 pass catching tight ends like Tech does.
That's because they are better coached. It doesn't matter if those teams were running spread offenses, triple option offenses, or pro-style offenses. Execution > Talent. Just about every offensive staff in the country has gotten better production out of their unit than Tech regardless of system.
No, this is because they are better coached.
And spread offenses don't disguise talent issues anymore, it's 2014. Many teams run their nickel as their base nowadays because their third corner/safety is better than their third linebacker. More and more athletes are better out in space than ever before because of the prevalence of the spread in high school as well as the 7v7 programs. Long gone are the days when a FCS team could send out four wide receivers and automatically get a mismatch against a Power5 team, that died a long time ago.
I agree... but that's an indictment on Loeffler's coaching ability not the use of multiple tight ends.
You mean, if I were an Auburn fan would I have defended Gene Chizik's dedication to a pro-style in 2012? Because the head ball coach wanted to go Pro, so he hired a Pro guy... Just so happened he hired a shitty one. Just like Beamer did. When you are using SL's track record against Malzahan, you aren't comparing Pro-style vs Spread. You're comparing a coach with 3 straight years of shitty offenses with one of the great offensive coordinators of the past decade.
Look. The more you learn about football the more you realize how blurred the lines are between the different "systems" of offense. It all comes down to execution. If you don't have coaches who can get their offensive line to block or their WR's to get seperation or allow their RB's to get into the flow of the game... it doesn't matter what "system" you run.
I agree with your sentiments. At the end of the day, it is a combination of not coaching the talent we have to do what we do best mainly because we don't know (coaches I mean) what the kids do the best.
The redshirt rebuild comment was mine. The gist of the comment was that in our first year with Loeffler, we didn't do any rebuilding, just maintaining what we had with LT3. This year is our first real year of rebuild. Next year will be another one.
I suppose another point, that I think you touched on, is that scrapping Loeffler now would mean we'd be starting from scratch all over again. I don't have the energy for that. I'll take two more years of the current staff if it means knowing for sure what we have.
As long as we continue to beat LOLUVA in the process, I suppose that is as much as I can ask for.
But I'm not asking anymore.
Completely agree with you. However if there isn't a significant change (whether real or perceived), Whit will lose a lot of donors. Ticket sales, attendance, and donations are down. He can sell the dream if can show changes.
I think it still somewhat depends on how the season ends. If we lose to uva without changes, I agree with you. If we win 2 more games, maybe they get away with selling hope for next year. Or perhaps more controversially, what if he fires Beamer anyway? That could disillusion people very quickly if [new hire] doesn't win
Edited (twice) because typos
They'll all come back if we start winning.
Is it possible that a significant change (Beamer) will piss off the segment that wants to keep CFB and it will cause the loss of donors, ticket sales ...
Yes. Me. And many of my counterparts.
Hokie Club membership has dropped the past two seasons. Season ticket sales have dropped each of the last three seasons. Lots of people on the internet talk about their dedication to the program, yet do not belong to the Hokie Club nor buy season tickets.
The apathy created this season resulted in almost 10,000 tickets being unsold for the BC game. Not unused, unsold. That equals to a loss of more than half a million dollars. That is actual fact. It's not bold, unsubstantiated talk on the internet, it is fact. We already lost half a million dollars in game revenue from that one game.
When we return with everything the same next year, except we got rid of the scapegoat Loeffler & replaced him with another inferior OC, and Frank promises we'll run the ball a whole lot and kill the play clock, just like the 'good old days'? We'll lose even more real money, and the devout internet Frank defenders will provide the same excuses as this year. And as last year, and as the year before that. Because, you know, we're going to have this supposedly dominant running game going when we've got no decent OL. Remember, the mantra the first part of the season was how bad the OL is, but now that we want to revert to the 1980's style offense, we make sure we forget to mention the OL is still pathetic. Since it has to be the scapegoat Loeffler who is the whole problem, discussing the weakness of the OL doesn't fit the narrative.
So, while it might be possible there is a massive uprising among all the people who think only Frank Beamer can coach at VT, just as anything is possible, we know what is real. Some of us just refuse to admit it.
No matter what is done a percentage of the fan base will not be happy. I can counter your bc "facts" with other "facts". Attendance is down at most schools, BC sold maybe 7 tickets from the allotment, it was a crappy day, a crappy opponent & and a mediocre VT team. It is much easier/cheaper to watch games at home. I live in PA and decided the Wednesday of the BC game that I wanted to attend. I'm sure many people that make decisions during the lead up to the game made a different decision.
Frank may be gone next year or maybe a couple of years from now. The assumption that the next coach will come here and everything will be great is far from a "fact". I hope that Whit gets it right but finding the right coach is not an exact science.
This has been brought up over and over. It says more about the fans than the coaches. Attendance is down everywhere. BC, fact or not, was a shitty weather game. A coach change that doesn't end up working out is going to affect attendance even more. Whit tried to shake up the game day experience this year for younger fans and all I heard was criticism. The fact is if we don't figure out how to reach out to millenials, the numbers will continue to drop. Couple that with losing some of the old school Beamer supporters, assuming a change, and we have the look of the BC game for every home game.
That has already begun BECAUSE of no change.
From 2011 sellout season to the 2012 season Ticket Sales dropped 1%
From the 2012 Season tickets sold droped 2.5%
This year, depending on the UVA game, Tickets sold will drop 3.5% if its a sell out. Or up to 5% if its an Avg of the season so far 60,880.
So based on raw numbers tech has had 50,000 unsold tickets in the last 3 years. For roughly $2.5M in lost revenue
But.
NCAA Regulation allow for schools to sell tickets to major donors at up to a Min the ticket price of 1/3 the set price, So
Instead of selling 5,000 tickets to the general public because demand is high for an exciting year at $50 for $250,000
Tech sales 5,000 tickets to sponsor/donor for $16.50 each getting revenue of $82,500. So tech can say attendance was higher as tickets were sold.
But the school lost the difference of $167,500 in one game. Now say Tech has been doing this to cover it's losses 3 seasons in a row to help the ticket count. 18 games.
$3M Lost due to reduced ticket prices plus the $2.5M in unsold tickets
In 3 years Tech has lost $5.5M (Say I'm off by half in discount ticketing, it's still $4M lost)
As for real experience, I had the opportunity to watch the 2011 Clemson Saturday Night game in the Indoor West seating, friend of a friend wasn't going. And neither were many of the people that had tickets for that game that sat up there. At most it was half full. Now I look up there every game. Most games it's a third full or less
How does this compare to what other schools have been experiencing over the last 5 years? I got free tickets to a PSU game a few weeks ago and they had 20,000+ empty seats. Their paid attendance was 8k short of a sell out. They are 2 coaches beyond JoePa and their fans already hate Franklin
I agree except for the 2 years part. I say we give it one more season but there has to be a drastic improvement of the product on the field. I'm talking a minimum of 9 Ws.
For me, I could always put up with a season of poor production if it appeared that Loeffler was building an offensive infrastructure that could flourish when more talent came into the system. From the erratic game planning we've seen in two years, I don't believe that is the case. I'd rather bring in a new OC who can create a rushing system than stick with an OC who clearly spends more time dabbling in the short passing game than anything else.
Next season, if VT is going to be successful they need to find a way to run the football. I see no reason to believe that Loeffler would find that success in his third year as opposed to a new coordinator in his first.
I agree with much of this, but I'd maintain that the erratic game planning is the result of what we have had.
Last year, the whole game plan had to be LT3, and as I've contended in other comments, virtually no rebuilding occurred. This year's X's and O's have been negative affected by the Jimmies and the Joes (whether that be injury, discipline, guys taking time off, not having a class schedule that lines up well, or what have you). I mentioned the other day that I don't think we have effective senior leadership on this offense, which we'll develop, I think in two years.
I believe we've heard that the offensive system and game plan is complex - potentially a little too complex for our guys to be able to execute effectively, especially the youngsters. This will come in time, albeit a longer time than me or anyone else would hope for. I don't think we started that last year, to my dismay.
I don't think he has the right signal caller. This is the only real beef I have with him thus far. We should be developing for the future. That starts with the training of guys like Ford and Durkin, their knowledge of the offense, their physical abilities on the field, and their rapport with the WR/OL groups in particular. Had we gone into this season knowing we'd be having growing pains, and done everything we could to work them out this year, I think we'd be much better off next year and the year after. I don't doubt for a second that this point agrees with your desire to build an offensive infrastructure, and I just think we started doing that this year. With the wrong QB.
Finally, I'll augment this with a reference to Rich Rod. Had to clean house pretty much before he could implement his offensive system at Michigan. His three year records: 3-9, 5-7, and 7-5. Improvement every year. What happened the year after he left? Same players, pretty much the same system, 11-2. Took four years. In his third year at Arizona, the Arizona Wildcats are ranked 12th in the country. Sometimes implementation takes time. The difference, I think, between RichRod and ScotLoef, is that ScotLoef didn't throw all the babies out with the bathwater in his first year, while RichRod did. On top of that, no one knows whether Loeffler's system will ever work. He's only been an OC for two years before coming to VT, and both times were 1-year stints at Temple and Auburn. I'm OK with giving him time to work it out. He came highly recommended by people like Lloyd Carr, who knows a thing or two about football and coaching.
And I still just think we're effectively in year 1 of the rebuild. 2016 is when I'll judge. People have talked about wanting an up-and-comer as an OC, and maybe Loeffler is that guy. But he'll have to learn how to be in charge and implement his system over the course of multiple recruiting classes before anyone will ever know for sure.
I agree with a lot of this, especially the part where you say Loeffler did the best with what he had.
But I just think that was a fire-able mistake.
That's exactly my point. Let's go back to your Rich Rod parallel, an apt comparison. See, Rich Rod had a system and the second he walked on campus he started implementing it. He knew that there would be growing pains and that he would take some short term heat, but he was willing to take that risk because he believed in his system and he was in it for the long haul. Loeffler never did that. He wasted an entire year changing his game plan from game to game based on his personnel, rather than spending his first year establishing an identity. I would have been fine with the bowl streak ending last year if it meant that this season we had something to build on.
But we didn't. Instead, Loeffler had to start over and move away from the tactics used to highlight Logan's strengths. All of those game reps last year running the Inverted Veer? Useless. We've barely used it at all this year. There is no way this team would be this bad offensively if Loeffler had used a consistent game plan every week for the past two seasons. It's just impossible. Instead, he's changed it almost on a weekly basis.
He doesn't HAVE a system though!!! That's why I'm done with supporting him. He has literally used every single offensive tactic and concept I can think of, excluding Paul Johnson's flex bone. That's the opposite of a "system".
That's tactical tourrettes.
He doesn't have a handful of plays that he believes in, a handful of plays that he can line his players up in and watch them execute it flawlessly 99 times out of 100. Paul Johnson, Rich Rod, Gus Malazahn... all the best coordinators believe in a concept and spend their time coaching their players to execute it, not teaching them 20 more concepts.
I am so glad we don't. Great talent can hide a lot of issues an offense has. Look at how good Tyrod and Co. made the offensive staff look his senior year. It's when a team has serious talent deficiencies that we see just how good a coach you are. If this team was lining up and running a coherent game plan week after week and was improving their execution then we could see the effect the positives in the coaching staff even if the offense was getting blown up by better personnel. The issues with this offense runs far, far deeper than just lack of talent. Is it possible that Loeffler could establish a system over the next few seasons? Sure. It's possible.
But I think it's more likely that a new offensive coordinator could do a better job. And that's the real question. "Would the average replacement offensive coordinator get more our of this unit?". If the answer is yes, then it's time to make a move.
These are some pretty good points, but I have a few thoughts.
Rich Rod did jump in and start implementing, but he was also the head coach and had implemented his offensive system before. Hell, he practically invented it. Loeffler isn't the head coach, and he's only ever had one year to even try to implement his preferred system anywhere before, so I can understand how he might focus on getting results now in order to earn another year to get all the details ironed out. I can't say whether he has a system or not, since we've never seen a Scot Loeffler system in any program he's ever worked. But I do think that for a guy with his background, I'd rather give him two more years to implement what he wants (whatever that ends up looking like) instead of trying to try to wipe the slate clean after year two just to restart again, because the prices we're willing to pay for an OC won't guarantee that ANYONE could come in and get the job done. I guess I'm saying the devil I know is better than the devil I don't, so I'll lean towards letting this one get fully into gear before I start thinking that the next, as of yet unnamed, OC will suddenly be able to snap their fingers and make our current talent execute at a Clemson or Auburn level.
My point is that he should have done this from the beginning. Not doing so points to an error in judgement, further proof that a new OC would get better results than Loeffler year 3.
What, are we not going to have injuries next year? There's always going to be an excuse to "win now, install your system later". Loeffler is very good at articulating his reasons for changing his game plan every week, but that's not good enough. If he was ever going to install his system, this was the year to do it. The fact that he didn't is just evidence that he never will.
I rest my case. I'd rather pick a new OC who HAS installed his system somewhere else than stick with one who hasn't. If we don't know what type of offense Loeffler wants to run... how is he a "devil you know"? I'd postulate that there are OC's out there who I know more about there offensive philosophy than I do Loefflers.
I think you're missing my point. Yes, he should have implemented his system from year one. Maybe that was a mistake, maybe not. Maybe Logandozer was the best we were going to be in year one. We all know we lacked talent on offense, so what was he supposed to do? Just do it anyway? Spend the time to train Logan on a system he wasn't going to be able to implement in the first year?
On the by and by, I think this is the first year where he IS installing his system. It's just very rough going. It's the first time he's had the opportunity to do this. And when the guy trying to tell you to simplify and run the ball more is a legend in the coaching profession, exactly how hard are you supposed to push against the program CEO? When you've never implemented your own system before. Where is Loeffler's confidence level right now? Is it possible Brewer's confidence level is a reflection of Scots?
I'd definitely buy that it was an error, in hindsight. Which one of us called that out in the early 2013 season? I know I didn't. Was Loeffler supposed to know? Did Frank?
I mean, if everyone went for an OC who had done it before than nobody would ever get their first job as an OC. He's the devil we know because we've gotten to see his work for two years. Needless to say, no one appears to be impressed. Yet (cough OSU cough). But I don't think firing the guy after two years will win us any more games any sooner, and I still think there is a high ceiling on his potential. Maybe he'll have the time to realize that potential at VT. Maybe he won't realize that potential at all. Maybe we've seen his ceiling already.
I don't know the answers. I just think there's more to him than we've seen yet, and if we give him the chance to develop as a coordinator, we might just be very happy.
Wasn't that the goal? To bring someone in for many years to fix the offense? Isn't that the way our program is run? Giving people the time to develop in their roles?
Frank has made bad decisions about OCs before, but that doesn't mean Loeffler is doomed to be the same, and I'm not about to give up on him in his second year because it doesn't currently look like I want it to look.
Guys I just want to say that this whole exchange is a great example of why this place is so awesome. I love that you've had a running discussion where you can find both agreeable points and points to disagree on in a civil manner, all while giving a good accounting of the present situation and its potential decision points. Thanks for helping make this place a terrific spot for Hokie fans.
Yes. Maybe we lose a few extra games Logan's senior year, but we'd be better off for it as a program now.
I am 110% in agreement with you here. Had we lost more games that year in exchange for being better now, I think we, collectively, as fans could have written it off as, 'Oh, it's his first year'. But since it's happening in year2, at the end of year 2, I think the scenario we're in seems much worse than I think it is.
Fair enough
There is zero evidence Loeffler has the ability to be a successful Offensive Coordinator. He has been an OC for 4 seasons at various stops and his total offense rankings have been: 63rd, 118th, 102nd, and 103rd. One of the greatest lies the devil ever told was it takes several years to install an offense. Sure, if you're completely changing the offense-- say going from running the option to a spread offense-- it might take a year or two to get the players you need. Tech is still running a pro style offense though, just like it was pre-Loeffler. Some formations and plays are new but it's certainly not a large departure that would require different types of players. A good offensive coach can come in and produce results immediately. When we hired Loeffler, people gave him a pass for his Auburn offensive statistics, saying he didn't have any talent. As we have since confirmed, that wasn't the issue at all. Gus Malzahn came into Auburn, took essentially the same roster that Loeffler led to the 118th ranked total offense in the country, then installed a completely new offense, and had them ranked 11th in total offense the very next season. Chad Morris is another example of a good coach who came into a situation, installed a new offense and showed immediate results (in his 1st year at Clemson, he led them to the 26th total offense in the nation, up for 88th the season before he arrived). If you're a good coach, you'll come in and produce results in Year 1 or at the very least by Year 2. If you're not a good coach, you'll find excuses.
I do agree with the overall sentiment that it will be hard to hire a good, new OC under Beamer at this point, for many reasons. Whit is in a tough spot.
I touched on some of these points in my post directly above yours in this thread: http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/218977#comment-218977
But in discussing the implementation of an offensive system in year one, I think I'd have to say that the talent level that Morris and Malzahn had was likely light years ahead of what Lefty got, and I just don't think he had the confidence as an OC to take charge like Malzahn and Morris did.
Morris - 26th with a Boyd/Watkins...
Morris - 61st in 2014.
This is how I feel. I don't really care if Lefty's system is the greatest ever invented. If we can't implement it, if we can't run it with talent from VA, if it's so complicated it takes players 3 years to learn - then it isn't the system for us. Too many other coaches doing more with less and in a shorter time span. Meanwhile we are showing no improvement at all.
I'm sure Whit has a list. When the season ends he and Frank will weigh our options - if there is someone better out there that we can land, why not make the move?
I'm confident with Whit involved we will be trading up, we'll do it right, we'll do it early, and it will be big news. No way he gets us stuck behind the 8ball (like the Greenberg decision).
We are all assuming that Lefty a WANTS to come back. Based on what he knows about the current personnel and chemistry amongst the coaches, we may be looking for a new OC not by VTs choosing.
Having said that, the only point this Hokie fan wants to impart, if a Whit is forced yo choose a new HC and the list of candidates includes only guys that have never been a Div 1 head coach, I want BUD to lead. If Bobby freakin Petrino can come back to college and coach, I want Bud MF Foster to lead us for a minimum of 3 seasons. Nothing anybody can say will convince me that it's not a good choice short of Foster not wanting the job.
Kick Uva's ASS Hokies!
lol i had the same thought. it would be pretty hilarious if loeffler straight up just walked away.
What do we know about chemistry amoungst the coaches?
#SOURCES PLEASE.
Good post, nothing really new here as others have stated. TCU might have 2 new Co- OC but how much is Gary Peterson involved? Also helps when Texas is a hot bed for football, so they can easily pick the best from the state and play I can score more than you can.
Well yea til reality sets in
Texas also has
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
Baylor
and TCU
But close behind is
LSU
Oklahoma
Oklahoma ST
Arkansas
Miss ST
Then Nation Programs
Bama
USC
ND
And the small guys
Houston
The Pony Express too
The Outside guys working in
UGa
K State
Boise St
Nebraska
Cal
Can somebody explain what this post is saying? I have read it multiple times and don't understand. It sounds to me like OP is saying all three of these options:
Fire the entire offensive staff (except Moorehead),
Fire Beamer, or
Fire Beamer and the offensive staff
The title of the post is Beamer stays, new OC but two of those options include firing Beamer.
Perhaps JC was fortunate enough to start his holiday drinking early yesterday morning??
looks like it.... if you click on his name ACCESS DENIED.. I saw on the tweeter MaroonUNI and Joe get into it yesterday and then a couple hours later I think the real "JC" stepped in and didn't seem to happy with the UNI Page.
Doesn't help JC its Ban #2, doubt he is ever back.
Damn, thats disappointing. JC was good people on here, but I guess he just couldn't keep his shit together.
They are the same person. He runs both Twitter accounts. Which is weird because he's having a conversation with himself. Long story short, I met JCtaughtMe at the TKP tailgate (nice enough guy). We had a conversation about the liquor he brought which included Four Roses and Cooper's Mark bourbon. Prior to meeting JC, the maroon uni account tweeted me the day of the tailgate that he was ready to come by and included a picture of the same booze. I remembered that and quickly put 2 and 2 together. The maroon uni account has since deleted the tweet, but I screen grabbed the smoking gun: http://i.imgur.com/fKW2AQIm.png.
Also, the maroon uni account tweeted a picture of the shirt JC wore to the tailgate, and the only time the maroon uni account has ever been mentioned on TKP is when JC would embed one of its tweets. Also, this: http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/111616#comment-111616. They are the same person.
If people want to trash the website, that's fine, but they aren't going to have the privilege of an account. That's why I disabled it, not because of this topic.
Ahh good intel. Done some forensics up in here
After the Wake game I was pretty upset but I have since cooled off. I really feel that Beamer deserves to be the coach for the Battle at Bristol. However changes need to happen after the season. So as I laid in bed last night with my wife and our 17 month old son using my face as a foot rest I thought if we were not to renew Scot's contract, who would be the best fit for the OC job.
Beamer needs to call his old friend Ralph Friedgen and offer him the OC Job. Friedgen has been known to work with the players he has and he will make the offense work. He is also 67 years old and will probably retire at the same time as Beamer. I can picture the phone call between Frank and Ralph now:
Frank Beamer: Listen, I know that we started out as foe. But after that courageous act that you showed me against the one they call Mike, maybe someday we could become friends. Friends who ride majestic, translucent steeds, shooting flaming arrows across the bridge of Hemdale.
Ralph Friedgen: I would follow you into the mists of Avalon if that's what you mean.
Good story And imagery.
One problem. Ralph is under contract at Rutgers.
Don't get the sense that Whit is a guy who would want such an intermediate state to exist.
But I like it. Fridge would be successful here. Could see Tom O'Brien (fix those OL issues!) I could see Paul Johnson (yes I know, I've lost my mind, but Paul Johnson and Bud Foster... noone would want to play us). Probably others who might fit a "short term" OC position.
Paul Johnson would be hilarious.. but in a weird but good way the idea of a option offense with Bud's Defense oh the possibilities.. Would he ever think of leaving GT for VT?
Would we really want to be the next chop block U.?
If it means 12-0 and a top 4 finish why not? Yes that is pure speculation and would require 2-4 years to recruit the O-Line to fit the system. I would think that VT would be able to pull better athlete's than GT and not to mention we definitely would be able to find a mobile QB to fill the role.
Beamer, Paul Johnson, Bud and Whit!!! Yikes that right there are ingredients for what could be domination.
Imagine if we could get Joe Gibbs to run the offense...Bristol would be a home game with all the Nascar fans.
The more I think about it, I think we have two options:
I don't think a new OC could come in, and keep recruits/young talent from decommitting/transferring. I don't think a new OC could come in and have more success than lefty would with the available talent.