Bud Foster needs to be paid right now. I can no longer count the number of games where I have looked at the person next to me and said "whatever Bud makes, its not enough". Well now is our chance to fix that statement. His contract needs to easily exceed 7 figures. At this point it is a joke that it doesn't. There are multiple SEC defensive coordinator jobs open and his name is starting to heat up as a top candidate as usual. The chatter on the Texas A&M front is growing by the day. Now I am not overly concerned that he would take one of these jobs, but you can't discount it, especially if the money doesn't come from Tech. Not one person in the fan base can argue that he shouldn't be paid whatever the figure is, no matter how high it is. No person has made more of an impact on Virginia Tech football than Bud Foster in the past decade. Whit needs to make this his #1 priority. He has done an excellent job so far and I would not be surprised if he is currently doing just that. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an announcement within the next week.
And just because this should be in every Bud Foster post.
Comments
i have a really hard time wrapping my head around bud making a lateral move like that.
doesn't mean the dude shouldn't GIT PAID though.
He's about to make $1.3M this year with his salary ($535k) and annuity ($800k) combined. That's not exactly chump change in Blacksburg.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the annuity a one-time deal? If we're talking about Bud being fairly compensated, he should make more money than any other defensive coordinator in America annually (adjusted for cost of living if you'd like).
Yep, its a 1-time thing.... But I would not be surprised to hear a pay increase coming in the near future.
I cannot agree that he should be the highest paid defensive coordinator. That means that he's making ~$1.2 million to surpass Kirby Smart.
Bud has earned it, though.
Year after year our offense has sucked, and year after year we are in a position to win a bunch of games and potentially play for division and conference titles. The reason for that is Bud just keeps putting out great defenses. The personnel changes, the recruiting rankings fluctuate, the scheme adjusts as time passes, and yet at the end of every year, you see VT out there putting up a strong defense that puts us in position to win games.
Since 2008 when he was hired, Kirby Smart has led Alabama to an average ranking of 4.4 according to Football Outsiders and their FEI ranking. In that same time, Bud has averaged a ranking of 15.7. Don't get me wrong, I love Bud, but please tell me why he deserves more money than Kirby Smart? Don't give me the better players/recruits argument. Your players are often matched by their competition. The more competitive your league, the better your players will be. And please don't use the argument that our defense carries the offense. All that says is that Bud should be paid more than our OC.
I'm sure Bud's defenses would look a lot better if our offense was good at keeping the defense off the field like Alabama's instead of continually going 3 and out like ours.
You didn't give me a reason why Bud should be paid more. You just said that he should be paid more than our OC. And don't pretend Alabama had a world beater offense. Their defense carried their team too.
But, Lane Kiffin...
I thought the 2013 defense looked pretty freaking good against Alabama's SEC offense last year.
Exactly. Bud's defense looked like something that could stop a freight train through sheer planning (first, you have a set of excellent lookouts that make sure the train's gunslinger can't connect with any of his help, then you send a large force at the train to tackle the snot out of the train's gunslinger, and contain any other threats), while the offense looked like a chihuahua that couldn't escape a wet paper bag.
True, Hx3H. People tend to get caught up emotionally in these discussions and forget the monetary side of it. We don't have anywhere near the type of funding for football that the SEC schools have, and that is where the vast majority of the huge Coordinator salaries originate. Yes, F$U & Clemson participate in that arms race, but as a function of their geography in the middle of SEC country.
Bud deserves a good salary, and he already gets a good salary. He's been invaluable to the success - whatever the level - of our football program since he became the DC. That doesn't equate to a need to throw money at him just for emotional reasons. Considering his performance and VT's status over the last few years, I can see him earning $750-800K annually. When you cost average his annuity into his current salary, he is at about $700K annually already.
The fly in the ointment in discussing a salary increase for Bud, though, is the current status of the football program. We're in a streak of continuing mediocrity, and have underperformed for three years running as a program. As such, it doesn't make sense to then give large pay increases to the staff following the disappointing results. Then you top that with the fact that Frank Beamer is extremely close to retirement. That means the entire staff will go into upheaval in two years. It doesn't make a lot of fiscal sense to raise the projected bar for Coordinator salaries higher when you'll be hiring someone new in a couple of years.
All in all, Bud has been underpaid for a number of years, but a large part of that is due to Bud being VERY clear that he would never leave Blacksburg until Frank Beamer left the program. So that is why we stand here, because Bud never played the game the way everyone plays it, and now it is too close to Frank's retirement to change that. The same could be said for Bud's strategy about becoming a head coach. If he ever actually wanted to do that anywhere except here, he went about it contrary to all proven paths over the last several years.
Saban is the real defensive coordinator at Alabama.
So we should be paying Bud $6M a year? Not $1.2M?
and paying his mortgage off
Bud doesn't have an abundance of 4 & 5 star talent to put on the field. If he did, I truly believe that VT's D would be as good or better than Bama and Mich St.
Michigan State? Did you see the Ohio State game?
If anything, Michigan St is very similar to VT -- albeit with a slightly lower level of recruit talent and a shorter track record of success.
Isn't the Michigan St defense largely built around concepts that Bud Foster introduced to football?
Bud is responsible for recruiting players. The fact that he doesn't bring in more 4 and 5 stars is just further proof that maybe he shouldnt be the best paid coordinator in the country.
VT is not an easy sell. They don't have as good of a pitch as the big names. We can't offer pedigree of players to the NFL, national championships, or some of the trivial things like beach access and great night life. Pay is not based upon recruiting. It's based upon results. Better results can create better recruiting which can, in turn, give greater results.
But that verifies StLH's argument. Using your line of reasoning, Bud has produced the results that should draw in higher ranked recruits that would help improve our D even more. Yet that has not happened to the degree it would be expected. Bud has never been known as a superior recruiter, and that is a factor in a head coach's resume as well as a Coordinator's resume.
But Bud hasn't drawn in a plethora of 4 or 5 star AND developed them to be NFL stars like Smart or Narduzzi. Bud Foster deserves a generous salary and we need him, but I don't think he deserves a salary more than the equally outstanding DC at Alabama who has been a key factor in earning them several championships. Our budget also factors into it as well.
Bud has put together some great defenses, but statistically, he doesn't always put out top defenses. Results like that (and wins on the field) are what will garner attention from those blue chip recruits. When I was compiling the numbers for Bud versus Smart in terms of defensive rankings, there were several years of defenses ranked 20-35. Still a good defense, but not a great one. Look, I love Bud and I think he's great for what we need in Blacksburg. His defense is exciting to watch. It relies on playmakers and execution. I just don't think he deserves to be paid more than any other DC in the nation.
Not an argument he needs to be paid more than other DCs, but:
One of the toughest things when looking at numbers and standings for defense is the amount of time they are on the field, the circumstances of what's going on in the games, and adjustments made.
If an offense is crappy, or mediocre at best, then the defense is on for way longer than they should be.
Teams that play from behind will be making different decisions on what they do. If you're down a few scores, you're going to be pretty pass happy, thus playing to a strength/weakness of a particular defense. If you're protecting a lead, you're going to be running the ball more, playing to the strength/weakness of a particular defense.
In the middle of the game, you see things and make adjustments, and what are the outcomes of those adjustments. Does a defense perform worse, or better?
Hard to compare things like that.
I was using the FEI which takes a lot of factors into account to rank their efficiency and doesn't look purely at numbers of yards and points given up. For instance, we have a bad offense this year but the #4 defense. In contrast, we had a team that put up loads of points in 2010 and had the #25 defense.
Hear, hear. Exactly right. And... Coach Foster getting a raise should translate to ALL of the defensive coaches getting a raise. Coach Wiles builds a top defensive line every year, and Coach "DBU" is not going to hang around for peanuts very much longer.
The terms of the UF buyout for McElwain's contract have been released. In total, UF will pay $14 mil for the privilege of paying McElwain $5 mil/yr to be their HC. The buyout alone, if put into escrow, earning 7% per year, could pay a top DC $1.4 mil/yr for almost 15 years (only cover 2/3 of the 15th year).
If the SEC is paying $5mil/yr for coaches, is $1.4-$1.6 for a DC that could put a team with a potent O like A&M, into the playoff year after year, really that unreasonable? Is it unreasonable for Bud to be willing to take 3X the salary that he makes today?
i don't think we can or will match what some SEC schools will offer Bud in January. It will be up to Bud if he wants to stay for less or leave for more...i think it's that simple.
i do think we'll offer him a raise, and will try to be competitive, but i doubt it comes close to 7 figures, and there are probably 2-3 SEC schools who will offer him $1M+ to be their DC...it's hard to ignore that kind of money, especially when you're counting down your employable years to retirement...
I'm not saying that we should toss that kind of cash at Bud. I'm simply pointing out the kind of money that SEC teams are spending and the gap between those figures and what Bud currently makes. Even with the annuity, Bud makes half of what he could. Clearly he's not an "all about the Benjamins" kind of person, but double salary (incl annuity) is quite an attraction. VT needs to tighten that gap (not close it). Getting to the mid point between Bud's current salary and what top DC's make "feels" about right.
i think a salary in the $750K range along with another retention bonus/annuity of some sort would be a fair offer. it's simply up to Bud if it's enough...
Except for a few facts. Bud has made it abundantly clear that he will not leave Tech until Frank retires. He has turned down interviews with SEC programs in the past, knowing the pay raise could be double what he makes at Tech. Also, McElwain is probably going to have to keep the entire defensive staff at Florida to avoid them having to pay out millions to assistants under contract currently. Then you add in that of both Auburn & A&M, neither has Bud anywhere among their top candidates. Not even 2nd or 3rd choice. They'll only look his way if lots of other people turn them & their millions offered in salary down. Then... on top of all that, Will Muschamp is out there as the top DC candidate in the nation and especially in the SEC. That pushes Bud further down the viable list. A list he has no interest in being on, as he has indicated many times.
So, to answer the question - Bud has shown no interest in leaving VT, and it is unreasonable for VT to budget that much for a DC at a flailing program, no matter how good he is.
Half of the NFL head coaches don't even make that much. Geez.
I would be pissed if VT were putting that kind of money into one coach. I would rather have lower ticket prices. There is no guarantee that coach will succeed. I know the athletic department must fund itself, but they can put money into the education fund right? In the world of sports, $5 million doesn't seem like much, but to the dean of a derpartment that is a windfall.
In the last 3 years Tech has lost ~$5 Million in unsold tickets and 10%? 50%? of that in gameday purchases at Lane. Who knows what else from other donations that may have been made.
This year, according to the box score, tickets sold fell 4.98% from last year. Last year was down 1.5%
It costs more but winning and a fun atmosphere bring in more. OSU and aTm added seats to there stadium
His contract is only for $3.5M per year for 6 years.
I have no doubt Bud is going to get paid.
He's in the catbird seat. I think this is the year he collects on that 800k annuity, right? So that retention bonus is now off the table. (ETA: Thanks Alum for answering that question as I was writing this post. :D)
He has every reason to expect either another deferred annuity at a significantly higher payout, or a straight increase in salary.
Personally I like the annuity mechanism, as it requires a full term commitment to receive. I don't have any reason to believe Bud wouldn't fulfill anything, as he obviously loves it here, but in general, it would make for better stability at other programs, and I'd like to see it used more, instead of the ridiculous arms race that coaches salaries have become.
goes both ways.
if we have no reason to believe bud would leave, i say just give him the annual increase. he shouldn't have to wait several years for the big pay out.
How do we know for certain that HCIW type deal hasn't been made behind closed doors and under the table?
That's the beauty of TKP, most of us don't know for certain much of what goes on behind closed doors, but we can debate it for days. Makes this place fun to be in (no sarcasm intended).
A hypothetical under the table HCIW deal better stay buried WAY under the table, since it violates Virginia hiring practices for public employees.
Wouldn't suprise me but I doubt it has been explicitly stated to Bud. I do think that Whit may have told him that he is currently auditioning. Anyone that pays attention to Bud after games and during press conferences has to have noticed a big difference in the way he talks to the media and conducts himself in public from now compared to a couple years ago. He really carries himself like he is talking like a head coach as opposed to a coordinator that doesn't care if people like him.
I sure as heck don't have any sources but I've spent enough time around Blacksburg/VT athletics/VT alumni to be almost certain that Bud won't be a head coach at VT.
I would put $$ down that he will be Tech's next HC. Any takers?
I'd take that bet.
If Weaver was still around, I could see it as a possibility.
With Whit in office, no way Foster is next coach. Big program, act accordingly. Bud is a phenomenal DC, but isn't a good fit at HC.
Big time programs are paying 4 and 5 million fir coaches that aren't slam dunks. VT can't do that. If Bud isn't offered HC opportunity, I would expect him to leave. VT without Bud will be a pretty sorry program in my opinion. I think Whit weighs these options and gives him the shot.
Oregon has done pretty well promoting its coordinators. As have Stanford, FSU (although I believe jimbo was given the coach in waiting position upon joining the staff?) and other programs. Bud shouldn't be handed the job, but he should be given a good look.
I don't understand this thought that Bud can't be a Head Coach. Maybe he's not the most polished guy, but all coaches seem to have a unique personality. He's young enough to be relatable for recruits, but old enough to be their leader. He's high energy, he's competitive, and he knows football. I'd rather Foster be our coach than a Tommy Tuberville.
I disagree, he is not well liked by the big donors, which is 90% of the battle of being the head ball coac.
You're kidding? Which major donor(s) don't like Bud?!
He's not kidding. They are aware of Bud's "baggage". They don't like it. Too risky.
EDIT: Never mind, this is a bad idea.
good idea ^^^^^^
Never mind, I shouldn't even have mentioned it.
Please enlighten us?
where do i sign up? No way Bud is HC.. he will stay DC or take a mid major HC job.
It's coming :).
######SOARCES
Whit knows and I'm sure he will make it happen.
Currently, the top 10 in terms of highest paid assistant coaches starts at $800,000 and the schools they coach for are: Auburn (DC who was just fired), Clemson x2, Michigan x2, Georgia, Michigan State, Louisville, LSU x2, and Alabama. What do those 8 schools have in common? Nearly all of them have more revenue than us for their athletic department. Bud's payday with his annuity will give him a salary this year roughly equal to the highest paid assistant coach, being Chad Morris, who just left to take the SMU head coach gig.
While the enthusiasm is to be commended, it ignores or misinterprets some fundamentals. Bud will receive an $800K annuity in January, on top of his salary of over $500K. So he's getting paid well relative to when he signed his contract. As for paying him any amount no matter how high? Or well into seven figures? That doesn't make fiscal sense. Yes, he deserves an increase in the coming years, as the salaries of elite Coordinators escalate recently. I don't see him getting paid a million-plus, though. That really doesn't fit into our budget at Tech.
As for him being a top candidate at several other programs? That is incorrect. He has been included in 'other names mentioned' at 2-3 places, but not as the 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd choice at any of them. It is far too well known that Bud will stay at VT until Frank Beamer retires for any other programs to show much interest in him. That is a direct result of Bud's own public statements and his refusal to interview at other elite programs in the past. Bud's name gets mentioned, but no one seriously considers him because they don't think he'd seriously consider them.
So, yes, Bud deserves a larger salary. Let's not forget the $800K he will get next month, though, and factor that into the equation. If you average it out over the term of the annuity, you would add about $200K to Bud's income annually. That would slot him at about $700K annual equivalency, which is appropriate, all things considered. Fortunately, Whit will approach the staff salaries over the next two years in a rational and professional manner, doing what is right for the long term health of the program.
I bet he gets PAID well.
THAT'S why the title looked funny. I couldn't put my finger on it.
Edited. English is fun. Leg at my expense.
I am sure Whit an inside source on this subject...
Bud is not going anywhere unless it is to be a Head Coach at a major program. He's said as much himself. That and Beamer has always paid his assistants well. In fact, if I remember correctly it wasn't too long ago that Beamers contract negotiations included pay raises for his assistants. Bud will be coaching here (and paid competitively to do so) for as long as Bud wants to.
Yes and no. Yes, Beamer paid his assistants very well when he had the UNC fiasco 14 years ago. But I wouldn't say the assistants are well paid anymore. I mean, Bud is the 35th highest paid assistant in the country. Ted Roof makes more at GT and Tom O'Brien makes more at UVa. Chad Morris, Kirby Smart, and John Chavis all made over 2x as much as Bud this past year alone, with Morris nearly 3x.
Ok now I'm behind this Bud getting paid movement
Disagree with one part of your post. It has indeed been a while since Frank made assistant coaches salaries a focus of his contract negotiations. That was back when he was ready to go to UNC. Since then, Frank has certainly not ignored the salaries of his assistants (witness Bud's annuity), but he has not made any sacrifices of his own income for them, either. Frank treats his guys very well, and they are paid fairly well, but that is the extent of it.
Loeffler is underpaid as an OC, despite what people think of his performance. Relative to the rest of the ACC, Loeffler is paid pretty low on the scale. Part of that is possibly because Frank never reduced Stinespring's salary from his time as the OC. Part of it is because Frank is just not that focused on salaries. Bud is underpaid relative to the rest of the ACC and across the nation, as his performance should deserve.
We don't need to pay ANY of our assistants a million a year or more, but our Coordinators are relatively underpaid in regards to their comparable peers. Not vastly underpaid, but relatively underpaid. The problem, though, is that when you have a program that has gone 7-6,8-5, 6-6 in the last three seasons, there's not a lot of foundation for tossing big income increases around as a reward for that sustained mediocrity.
The thing is our defense is why were weren't 2-10 those seasons. Our overall record has been mediocre but our defense has not been. It has been either very good to elite so he should be compensated for putting that level of defense on the field. I am not saying he should be paid $1m+ a year but he should make more than $400k.
I understand and partially agree with your point, as I included in posts above. The thing is, though - Bud makes $535K this year, before bonuses, which could have put him over $600K if the team had performed well. On top of that he is receiving an $800K annuity in January. Averaging the annuity over the life of the agreement would put Bud's average income revalued at about $700K annually. That's before the bonuses. So I'm guessing that put's Bud's income more in the range of what you (and I) think is reasonable for VT to spend.
As for team performance not impacting D coaches' incomes, the problem is that you can't use that precedent. If you raise the defensive staff's incomes and refuse raises to the offensive staff, you are creating a toxic atmosphere among the staff. Also, you 'must'(emphasis added) factor in overall program performance to pay increases, as well as the future tenure of the staff. You just have to do that. You can't give out large pay increases after such mediocre performance by the team. The donors would revolt, and rightly so.
Then the short term tenure of the staff means you'd be increasing the bar you set for the new hires in a couple of years unnecessarily. Why raise your DC's salary to $800K now when you're going to hire his replacement in two years? That guy will want a similar amount, instead of knowing you've been paying $500K. So you have to look at all those factors, and you can be sure that Whit Babcock is aware of all that and more.
Look, I have a man crush on Bud and absolutely think he should get a raise. I would hate to see him on some other sideline next fall. But to say that our defense is why we weren't 2-10 this season overlooks the fact that we gave up late leads in several games this year and last. Our defenses put up great numbers over the course of most games, but we have a very bad tendency to give up leads late in games. Now I know there is the issue of depth and talent, but isn't it also his job to maintain depth by participating in bringing in the talent necessary?
Again, I'm not saying Bud isn't loved by all Hokies, and rightfully so. But throwing out crazy money that VT doesn't have would be foolish IMO.
Offense ranks 100th in points scored and defense ranks 18th in points allowed. Out of 128 teams
Almost Literally ,opposite ends
The defense is as good as the offense is bad
Don't get me wrong jpoole9999, I absolutely agree that our offense is brutally bad and puts our defense in terrible positions all the time. And that certainly has a huge affect on the defense by constantly putting pressure on those kids to hold on. I get that. But I also don't discount the fact that it's not always just some breakdown of personnel that causes those losses at the end of games. Sometimes it's scheme and coverage calling as well. And it's not just this year that those late game losses have happened, so it can't just be because we're young and lack depth. Past losses like Boise State and Cincinnati immediately come to mind.
Again, not advocating at all for some kind of change, or even saying that Bud isn't an awesome coordinator who has had a huge role in making VT what it is. I want him here until he can no longer coach if that's what he wants. All I'm saying is that he's not an infallible human being. And I don't think we should throw crazy money at him that our program can't support. If we over tax the athletic department budget with salaries that it can't support, then other expenses have to be cut. Football is clearly where the overwhelming majority of the revenue is generated, and it supports every other athletic program at VT. When that revenue drops (which is absolutely what is happening currently), or when expenses inflate (which higher salaries directly affect), then you either go into debt like our federal government and keep spending anyway and hope that money falls from the sky, or you make the tough fiscal choices and manage the expenses wisely. And as much as we all wish we had unlimited resources for our athletic programs, we don't.
Bud will be paid enough to keep him from making a lateral move, of that I'm confident. I'm more concerned with Torrian Gray's salary. That guy has a huge impact on a secondary that churns out NFL talent every year and he needs to be paid like an elite position coach.
Agree on this.
He and Moorehead are tremendous assets that are going to need to see increases to stick around.
I think Moorehead is just the perfect counterpart to Torian, and has the fire to take advantage of the opportunity to coach up WR's going against elite DB's every day in practice.
And look at the bright side of the whole Loeffler offense stalling: His performance has not required us to revisit his salary. I have an only slightly irrational faith that we are going to see a much better offensive performance next year, and if that happens we probably still won't need to worry about him looking for greener pastures until another year or two after that for him to prove to the market that his OC chops are worth buying.
So we should have some wiggle room in the budget to pay other coaches.
T. Gray knows he next man up for the D coordinator job when Bud vacates it. 2016 at the latest.
He will stand pat, unless a new Head Coach determines to not retain him.
Everyone seems to believe this wholeheartedly, but I'm not 100% convinced it isn't Wiles if we stay in-house.
Problem with Wiles is that he isn't that far from Retirement age himself. I actually would not be shocked to see he and Frank retire at the same time.
Point. With each passing season, Gray does become a more likely successor.
Charley Wiles is 50 yrs old. Five years younger than Bud Foster. He and Bud both came to Tech from Murray State with Frank.
Damn.. 50? Then never mind anything I said.
I thought he was older, too. I thought he was late 50's maybe 58 or 59. It's because he looks older. He's aging the way Frank & Billy Hite aged, they looked their age. You compare Charley to Bud - as they are often paired together, and he just seems older than Bud.
Bud is like Chuck Norris, he's too tough to age.
Actually, seriously, in seeing some interview clips of Bud this season, he looked at least 6-8 years older than just a couple of seasons ago. So he's catching up in appearance. Those .500 seasons will wear a guy down.
I think its the wrap-half-the-face sunglasses he has to wear due to his eye complications. These are rarely spotted outside of Florida retirement villages.
I thought I had heard that Whit was meeting with Bud this week or something along those lines. I am guessing he will be getting a raise here soon.
Let's pay him money we don't have to keep him from going to places he won't go. Not everything is about money.
I agree it's time you pay the man. Dunno if we can sustain $1Mil+ a year, but I'd like to see his base salary adjusted to the amount of the annuity.
Problem is, we're talking about a big raise at the time when revenues are trending drastically downward. His salary has to come from somewhere, and with less revenue that means cuts somewhere else.
Instead of pulling arbitrary numbers out of our asses and throwing them at the wall, I'd rather see Whit take Bud out to dinner, and over after-dinner drinks say, "I want you to be on staff for the foreseeable future. Where do you need your salary to be for that to happen?"
I'm betting Bud gives not a shit about making a million bucks a year, but would really value a straightforward display of appreciation and loyalty from his boss's new boss.
for real. I mean after a certain point, how much money does Bud really want to make? I feel like you hit a point after which you care more about where you work, who you work with, and where you live a lot more than the money. I mean, plenty of us chose lower paying jobs to live somewhere we wanted (Blacksburg in my case) and to work in an environment we wanted (smaller engineering firm) once we were sure basic needs would be met. why should Bud be any different?
Couldn't agree more. And I've been told from several sources that Hokie Club donations are down somewhere around 40% over the last two years. 40%. And let's not forget that had we not beaten our rivals up north last Friday, the conversations this week would be far more gloom and doom.
And that's a great thought regarding how Whit should handle it. And it probably would work with Bud, but who knows.
I completely agree with this way of thinking. I don't want Tech to just throw money at Bud. I want it to be a show of appreciation for all of the years that he has been here. He is underpaid for the level of coaching that he brings to the defense every year. I just want him to be fairly compensated for his value.
Only problem I see with giving Bud a huge raise is the new (hopefully sooner rather than later) OC we bring in will also want a large salary and then it becomes an unsustainable arms race.
Exactly. People are too quick to spend the money emotionally, instead of thinking of the bigger picture and longer term impact. Fortunately, Whit doesn't respond rashly.
In my eyes paying Bud is the most rational decision you can make. Putting that money towards a new offensive coordinator would be the irrational decision.
Nobody is talking about replacing Bud with someone else, except if Bud leaves. When Frank retires in a couple of seasons, then Bud is very likely to go also, unless he is made the head coach. Either way, he won't be the DC, so a new one would have to be hired. There's really no sense in raising Bud's salary to a million dollars or more a season, for all the reasons outline throughout this thread. Emotionally, people want to do that, but thankfully, Whit doesn't run his department on emotion. Bud will stay until Frank retires without receiving a pay raise. He's getting a lump sum of $800K in a month. He's not about the money, if he were he'd have left long ago. He's not going anywhere. There are far more negatives to giving him a large pay increase than positives.
Bud and Charlie were both on a plane to Charlotte a few hours ago. No idea where they were heading.
ACC Conf championship game?
That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why would they fly to CLT, then have to rent a car to get anywhere? Charlotte is only about a 3 hour drive from Blacksburg.
$800k will buy a heck of a nice rental!
Was CLT their final destination? If they were going anywhere further, you have to hit a hub like CLT to get there.
Does CLT fly a connector into College Station? Or Gainesville? Hmm...
Or a recruit's house
I know right...
That I don't know.
That worries me.
Would you prefer Charley & Bud fly different planes, just in case one goes down? Chain of command and all that?
The sarcasm is much appreciated. Just commenting on a topic I was interested in, sorry.
It wasn't meant as sarcasm. It was meant as a joke. I just refuse to put TIC at the end on general principle. I knew what you intended. I was only joking.
Its all good man!
Don't mean to be that dude, but I dont really like or feel the joke. I feel like it hits too close to home with the whole Marshall tragedy back in the 70s. Just my 2 cents.
Ahh yeah the 70s, definitely too soon.
I think it was meant more like a president/ vice president protect the future chain of command of VT. If anything it is giving CBF some extra gravitas.
It was indeed along the lines of POTUS, VP, Sec. of State, etc.
To make any kind of connection to Marshall, an entirely different university, is a huge leap in desire of controversy. It seems like there have been other plane crashes involving college athletes since then, anyway. I guess the statute of limitations must be 50 years, since the Marshall crash was somewhere around 1970. A mere 44 years ago.
Hey, I've got this great joke to tell about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree! Or is it too soon?
Somehow I think that if what happened with Marshall, happened to us instead, I doubt you'd be making any kind of joke. At least I hope you wouldn't. I may not have been alive when it occurred, but I did attend Marshall for a summer semester and walked by and observed the memorial on campus. It was a sobering experience and tragedy. Again, maybe I'm the only one on here that feels that way.
It's been 44 years and three weeks since that occurred. At a different university. Not at Tech. At a different university. There have been lots of plane crashes that killed lots of people since then. It happens, and it is a tragedy when it happens. People die in cars, in bathtubs, watching sports events, in every facet of life you can name, people have died. Probably in every case they've died on at least one occasion since November 14th, 1970. Are there no jokes to be made about anything, ever, for fear of offending someone who knows about some tragedy somewhere, some time?
There will be no apology. Down vote me if you desire. I'm not into that whole count thing, but feel free. You really seem to be digging way too deep for a reason to be offended.
I'm not going to downvote you. You stated your opinion. It's against community guidelines. I just feel that the joke was in pretty poor class and taste considering it involved to very respected Tech coaches and a virtual plane crash. Suppose it actually did happen. Then how would you feel? I'd feel like a complete shithead and the worst kind of douche if that happened (keep in mind I'm not calling you one). It's awful to consider. It would be a terrible tragedy for Hokie Nation.
Part of the reason I feel this way is because that summer I came to respect Marshall. There certainly seemed to be an obvious passion for the football program there. Perhaps I observed similarities in the passion they expressed for their program and ours. I also liked their jabs at that other school in that state.
We should probably avoid transatlantic ocean liner crossings as well, just for good measure.
Dude, seriously??? Too soon!
Dammit.... alright, FINE... we'll travel by blimp, nothing bad has ever happened in a bli...
Dammit
Wagon train. It's the only way.
Son of a...
I would say this entire morbid tangent came out of left field, but then I remembered that father who fell out of the stands and died while trying to catch a home run ball for his son, and I felt so awful about it I knew I could never make a baseball reference again without feeling callous.
I felt so heart broken about it all, but I remembered that Steve Irwin died when stabbed in the heart by a sting ray, so I didn't know how to feel any more. After all, we're talking sports here, it's a very, very serious situation.
I'll pay into the athletic department to give Bud a raise.
What I can pay may not amount to a pile of apples in the grand scheme (or oats or carrots, etc), but my twenty bucks a year closes the gap like Timecop.
Also, BWade - its "Paid" and not "Payed"
There was a hashtag going around twitter of #LunchPaleD or something recently too...
We need to work on our spelling and grammar :)
I think your the one with a problem hear
your an idiot, stick too sports
your a*** idiot,, idiot
What in the world is an a** idiot?
...idiot.
Both of you guys suck at grammer.
Grammar*
Its true, I should of kept my mouth shut
Edited. Leg at my expense.
Leg for being a good sport.
I know what I'd do if I had a million dollars...
Definitely a top 5 all-time movie character.
"Hey, Peter....watch out for your cornhole, bud."
Whether it is Bud or not, the coordinators pay needs to be raised. We want a Top 25 team, but we don't pay in the top 25 for assistants. I understand this arms race mentality can lead to overinflated salaries, but you know the old saying "you get what you payed for" (intentional)
I think it is coming, just gotta be patient.
There are several factors involved in where he lands with the salary. Under Beamer, I doubt very seriously that anyone could walk into his or the AD (Whit's) office and complain about how much they make. As in all jobs, the environment is a huge factor. I've take jobs for less money to be happier in life. And let's not kid ourselves, we all love southwest Virginia (thus the reason why we are Hokies) and several of us would be there in a heartbeat if the work would support us. For comparison sake, $300k in Balcksburg is equivalent to $390k in Bethesda, MD.
And, Tech is a public school. As is UVA, JMU, VMI, Norfolk State, Radford, Mary Washington, W&M, Mason, ODU, VCU. All of which have football and/or basketball programs. All of these coaches are public employees. Remember when the Gov lobbied the ACC for us to join? Kind of an all-together vibe, among all of the schools. Why do you think we play the tour of the state? JMU, W&M, ODU... That's a lot of schools, all of which are coming out of a similar pot of public money (with donor funds added to, I know.) It's extremely difficult to put ONE person in a not head coach position above an entire staff. At W&M, Laycock is making in the neighborhood of $225k per year, and has assistant coaches making less than $60k. I don't see a DC making more than entire staff....and I can't imagine the powers that be in the state allowing it to occur.
True, there are donor funds added in, along with Nike monies and such. But with the ticket sales down, as was state by someone above, which also means the on-site game day sales are down, I don't see a plug of money in the neighborhood of $300k just magically appearing. Oh, and did I mention we went 6-6? I know a lot of guys will donate their amount no matter the outcome of the year. But what about that big fish donor? You know, the one who gives $250k a year. Is he going to dig deeper this year to give $400k after a 6-6 season? Just something to ponder.
End of the day, I feel that Bud is doing alright where he's at. The $800k annuity helps a ton! And really, after all these years, do you see him taking the big annuity and bolting for another job? I know I don't.
***Redacted because I can read, most of the time, but not this time...***
And here's the top salaries for assistants. The far right column in the entire staff payroll.
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant
And here's an info-graphic on the top public salaries, by state, and their positions. Spoiler: Nearly all of them are coaches.
http://deadspin.com/infographic-is-your-states-highest-paid-employee-a-co-489635228
Not disputing your overall point, but the guy sitting at #1 on that list is now an assistant for the Akron Zips, so I'm not sure how much much credence to give that list
2 things...First, it's an Alphabetical list. Second, it's old. Still has Jimbo as an assistant.
poo. sorry bout that one. was deep into a few other things, and just glanced at this and thought it was showing what I thought it was, not old info in a bad sorting format...
No problem, your USA Today link was current, and your points made still stand. While the emotional response would be - 'Sure! Give Bud a big raise! We love him!', the fiscally responsible action would be to hold steady.
First, the team has not produced for the last three seasons. The knee jerk response will be - 'But Bud's unit has!', while I remind everyone this is a team game and to give raises to half the staff would create a toxic environment within the program. This is a program where there are already issues within the staff, we don't need to worsen the situation.
Secondly, it wouldn't be prudent to give Coordinator raises now when the staff will overturn in two years. Whit would just be costing himself extra money at a time when we do not have extra money.
Which brings us to the third reason - Hokie Club donations are down sharply, season ticket sales are down, and Whit needs to balance the overall needs of the entire athletic program against the needs of a single program.
Lastly, even if all those above scenarios were not in place, the overriding factor is that Bud is not leaving Virginia Tech for any other job, Coordinator or Head Coach. He's refused multiple times to even interview for another DC position at salary offers far higher within the SEC. He's refused to talk to even mid-tier & lower ranked Power 5 Conference teams about Head Coaching jobs. He's set his supposed parameters for a Head Coaching position so high that they are completely unrealistic and unattainable.
Bud won't leave until Frank leaves, and then only if he's not given the head coaching job. He might not even leave then. Bud will not leave. He has zero leverage, despite the spin attempts by some media people and posters to claim he does. There is no rational argument for paying him more that trumps the mountain of reasons why we should continue to pay him what he's now getting until Frank Beamer retires. It's the situation that Bud has crafted for himself. And before we all feel sorry for him, he is making $535K base salary with about $80K incentives annually, and he is receiving a check for $800K (before taxes) in less than a month. Bud is well compensated. Circumstances do not warrant him receiving a pay increase.
Ok, most of the time I let you go on with your rants about the finances, but just stop. Seriously... stop.
The team is down because the offense has been dogshit as a whole for the better part of a decade and a half. The ONLY reason this program has had any kind of success from basically 2003 until now is because we have a world class defense that keeps us in games that the offense has absolutely no business whatsoever in winning. We were winning the ACC with offensive rankings in the 100s. Hell, this year alone on offense and special teams we were one of the most inept teams in the game, and yet when we needed it most, there we were on defense pitching shutouts and slapping UVa around like a red headed stepchild. Without this defense and the the effort that Bud puts in year after year, we are a program playing at the historical level of Duke and Wake Forest, because we are that clueless about every other aspect of the game outside of defense. Its a crime that Bud isn't paid better than he has been paid. Stinespring was stealing money out of his pocket for a decade while he was here, and to be honest, its only a testament to his loyalty to VT and Frank Beamer that Bud stuck it out with us throughout the process.
Financially, paying Bud the money he deserved IS the wise fiscal decision. If we lose him, to put it bluntly, we're absolutely fucked. He's the only reason we're even treading water right now, and the reason for that is he's one of, if not the single best defensive coach in college football. It doesn't matter what kids are playing, it doesn't matter their star rankings coming in, he coaches the hell out of them, and gets every single ounce of athletic ability to shine while they wear the maroon and orange. He embodies everything we love about Virginia Tech football and its a goddamn crime that he's only the 35th highest paid assistant coach in the country. Its an even bigger crime that any assistant coach at UVa is paid a higher salary than him. He means more to Virginia Tech than any other assistant coach means to any other program in the country. Its about damn time we made the wise financial investment to keep him around than to let him go and deal with the financial disaster that will happen when the defense crumbles to the level our offense has been playing for so long. You think we're in a tough financial spot now? If we lose Bud, our issues magnify ten-fold.
Let's see... Agree on the offensive weakness being a recurring decade-plus issue. Agree about the Stinespring angle. Agree Bud's D is the only thing keeping us from going 3-9 every season. I would add that we have avoided for many years holding anyone accountable - ahem, Frank - for the fact that our team has had such a weak offense, essentially rendering us half a team. That's a little different argument, though, so we'll let that rest.
Where we diverge is that your argument for giving Bud a large raise is the emotional one. You say it is a crime - I won't use the exact quote - that Bud is the 35th highest paid assistant coach. Step back from the emotion and consider the larger picture. That includes offensive and defensive coordinators, essentially. 35th in the nation of all coordinators. Think about VT's team production the last three seasons. It has been nowhere close to being 35th best in the nation. Then swivel to consider the funding for programs across the nation. Without looking, I'd estimate that we are probably in the 30-40 range nationally in athletic program revenue & funding. We might be lower than that, but I'd put us in that range. Then it is necessary to factor in the short term future of the program, which has been discussed already. Frank is short short term. The entire program top to bottom will be changed.
The finances just do not justify it. Emotionally, sure. Emotionally, I'd like to see Bud at about $750-800K annually. But we do not have the money to do that. That is the hard truth of the matter. Top that with the common knowledge that Bud is not leaving VT until Frank leaves. So he has removed his leverage to gain income because of the time frame and because of his public stance. That might bother some emotionally, but it is what it is. All the arguments on here won't really impact what has evolved into the current scenario. Bud's not leaving for anywhere else, and we don't have the money to pay him a huge raise.
....Because the offense has been a steaming pile of dogshit for the better part of 15 years, with it bottoming out over the last 3....
You're trying to say Bud is partly responsible for the issues on offense, and I'm telling you that is patently bullshit. Yes, overall, we're a program that ranks probably where you say we are. If we didn't have Bud, we'd be damn near 100th nationally. He and his staff are literally the only reason we aren't the worst program in the ACC, and potentially in all of the Power 5. Thats how bad we are offensively and on special teams.
This has nothing to do with emotion. Bud Foster is one of, if not the single best defensive coach in all of college football and is being paid as if he's only upper-half. He isn't even the highest paid assistant coach in our own state, a state he has personally owned each of the last 11 years. He whips that UVa offense annually, and yet their OC makes a larger salary. That doesn't make sense.
Absolutely untrue. We have the money, we just choose to not spend it. We generally run at about a $4M in the black annually. Even after the increase in salary basketball-wise, we still have around $2.7M annually to spend in profits back on coaches, if we so desire, and that doesn't account for any increases in media sharing, which is going up. Bud himself is making $1.3M this year alone, with the annuity kicking in.
If we don't pay him, he will eventually leave, and when that happens, we're done as a program (unless we pony up mega cash to bring in an all star head coach). We cannot compete on an even playing field against anyone in the Power 5 with the offense and special teams we have if we don't have Bud's defense backing it up. That is how much he means to our program. He is our program. Beamer might have been the face of the thing for the last 15 years, but Bud is the one that made us successful. It is not emotional to say this. It is insanity to say he shouldn't be paid because every aspect other than what he directly controls has been bottom of the barrel awful for longer than any reasonable head coach should have allowed it to wallow.
You might want to re-read your two posts before saying that isn't an emotional argument. Your tone and refusal to consider the overall health of the program suggest otherwise.
For example, you post that I'm trying to say Bud is partially responsible for the pathetic offense. You post that in your response to me where I agreed with you that Bud's defense was the only reason we didn't go 3-9 every year. Thus proving your emotions are not allowing you to consider the financial hurdles objectively, because you're too focused on the emotion of rewarding Bud regardless of expense to the program.
I could go through the other points, showing the athletics department at VT is about more than just football, but you've shown you're not that interested in them. We can't afford to plow all the additional revenue made from football back into only football. College athletics doesn't work that way.
I will offer you this to consider - let's say Bud completely reverses everything he has said and done in the past about leaving, he does a total 180 spin. he tells Whit he wants $1.2M annually and a guaranteed contract or he's going to the SEC. This despite the fact Bud isn't in the Top 3 of any list for a DC in the SEC openings right now. Regardless, Bud uproots his family after nearly three decades in Blacksburg and goes somewhere else, anywhere. Just to prove the point.
So what happens in Blacksburg? Well, Frank can't find anyone to replace Bud on short notice and a lower pay scale than the SEC. So he hires a Scott Loeffler-type DC. We go the expected 3-9 and the fan base wants Frank fired, and Whit agrees. Frank 'retires' after a dismal 2015 season. Whit looks for a new head coach, and entirely new staff, because, well, the obvious reasons.
Guess who doesn't get his phone calls returned? Bud Foster. The one head coaching job he wants more than any other, he doesn't get a shot because he played hard ball at the wrong time and left the program in a bind only one year earlier. Whit finds a suitable replacement for Frank, one that keeps us in the race for the ACC crown every season, and life goes on.
Except Bud loses out all around. Like I posted earlier, Bud really has no leverage, if you remove the emotion from the argument. He removed his own leverage over the years. Folks can get as mad as they want about it, but that doesn't change the fact Bud doesn't have leverage for a huge raise now.
What is Bud supposed to say in regards to staying in Blacksburg. Let's say he isn't as gung-ho about being underpaid while carrying this program. Is he supposed to say, well I'm gonna stick around until I get my annuity and then bolt for more money. That would go over well in recruiting circles. I bet every head coach that bolts for more money does so right after assuring the whole fan base that he is a (insert school) guy and isn't going anywhere.
Bottom line is I think Bud does love the NRV. He also loves Beamer. But neither has to keep him from moving for a few years if it means retiring to Claytor Lake with a few extra bills in his pocket. You say he has no leverage, but I bet he could have a legitimate offer from another program that puts him in the 800k to 1M range in an instant. With that offer in hand, I would say he has all the leverage he would ever need. It sounds like you are justifying underpaying a man that deserves it BECAUSE he is loyal. That is bad business.
I've hear a lot about how the finances are down. Hamstringing your coaching staff by not paying appropriate salaries is not a way to bring that back up. If you cleaned house today and tried to hire a coaching staff back at the currently salary structures, you would not be fishing in the same coaching pool that this fan base expects. So holding back the coaches that deserve the money now because you don't want to inflate the expected salaries for the next generation of coaches is worthless, unless your plan is to hire a staff full of substandard coaches in a few years.
There are real concerns about attendance (these concerns are nation wide). These issues need to be explored, but they are not purely related to the performance of the program. If we want to stay on top, pay the coaches that deserve it and figure out how to get the money allocated.
My 2 cents...
I agree with you in a lot of respects, especially in regards to Bud's defenses being the biggest factor behind us remaining competitive at all over the last decade. But let's face it, one way or another we are going to loose him eventually. The man can't coach and live forever. I agree that I'd like to keep him here for as long as he is able and willing. But mortgaging the entire financial future of the program isn't an option. With that said, I don't think $750-$800K is ridiculous. Seven figure salary? I don't see that being reasonable or sustainable for VT. I know that's not what you're advocating, but there are some on here that have.
And I understand and appreciate the passion and desire for VT to become great again in football. I want it just as bad. But we're not UF, UGA, OSU, Alabama, Texas, etc., etc., and we don't have their financial resources. You can argue with greater success comes greater revenue, and that is true. But look at the money UF and Texas have thrown around for coaches and assistants in search of that success and look what it has gotten them. Fortunately for them they have the financial resources (apparently) to make those poor decisions and survive. I just don't see how VT could make those same mistakes and survive.
The ACC link is about six years old. The USA Today link is more current, as it reflects the salaries from the 2013 season. That is as current as you can get, since salaries for current seasons tend to be typically unobtainable, for some reason.
My slightly-informed take (#SOURCES) HCIW is not happening. Bud is getting a raise that will be significant but not SEC-level. His staff will get raises too. Whit likely knows the only way the end game with Frank doesnt get really ugly is if Bud stays on board. Beyond that, he also probably wants Bud to consider staying long-term in the LIKELY situation that he is not Franks replacement and a HC is hired who would desire to retain him. This is Whits opportunity to make Bud feel valued, and he will do exactly that.
Whit definitely knows the best scenario for the program is for Frank to retire 1 - 2 years down the road and for us to hire a big-time offensive-minded coach to put alongside Buds defense. Obviously there are a number of things that could prevent that from happening, but if that can happen we will take a major step forward and be a consistently top 15 as we were back in the golden days. And, Hokie Club donations will increase and Whit will have earned his pay.
i read the 1 2 as 12... jesus christ i spit my coffee all over the computer and face palmed ... so its 1-----2 years not 12!!
Corrected - thanks!
I need to be paid now too!
Pay the man his keep!
Rumors growing that Bud is in fact going to be paid once he gets back from recruiting. I'm just thinking down the road. I think that a raise could be a huge deal in terms of the program. Let's say that Whit is 100% sure he is not hiring Bud as Coach when Frank steps down, what is the best way to try and keep Bud as DC under a new coach? Pay him now. Double his salary now and let him know how much he means to the program. I can understand the arguments in this thread for not overtaxing the program to pay him for the work he has done. But what if this raise was an investment in the future. Making a real effort to keep him long term under a new coach. Pretty hard to say that a move like that wouldn't be worth it.
I'm thinking that we'd better offer Bud a real good incentive to stay here. I'm sure that Auburn has reached out to him already, and they are willing and able to pay a lot. I would be very upset if we ended up trading Auburn Bud for Loeffler.
I wonder if recruiting affects Bud's feelings at all. I feel like we are in the conversation for a lot of big recruits, but a lot of them just want to play for an established dynasty rather than be the foundation of one. It's strange, because recruits know that Bud is a great coach and probably the best DC in the country.