All along I have said it, repeated it, and stood by it. I was willing to put in another year of this if the coaches could show that they were bringing in the talent needed to make the turnaround that we all expect before Frank's expected departure after the 2016 season.
With the recruiting miss on Jalen Dalton, and today's recruiting miss on Josh Sweat (and the likelihood that Tim Settle goes elsewhere) after missing out on Derrick Nnadi and DeShawn Hand last year, I don't see how we can have that hope anymore. Depth-wise, our defensive line is in as poor a state as it has really ever been, and we were extremely fortunate this year that this was the one position where we really weren't hit with the injury bug. Going forward, that likely will not be the case, and we just don't have the depth on the roster or coming in through the recruiting class to overcome it. We NEEDED Dalton and Sweat this year, even moreso than we needed Nnadi and Hand last year, and we missed out on the whole lot. There aren't many times you will ever get this kind of supreme talent being pumped out of your own state, and the fact we completely missed on them all is beyond concerning. Our strength in this state was supposed to be with the relationships that had been built between our coaching staff and the coaches and ADs in the high school ranks within the state. Those relationships have eroded to the point where they are inconsequential when we need it most.
I want to have Frank go out on his own, and I want him to coach until he's ready to retire, but I just don't see anything that is happening in the present to justify retaining this staff. These new coaches were supposed to put us over the top in recruiting and were supposed to stabilize a terribly disjointed offense into something that could work. Our recruiting, while better than it was in 2010 and 2011, has not really improved upon where it was under the previous regime, and the offense as a whole looks like a more complete mess than what they inherited.
I just don't know. I respect Frank, and I really do appreciate all that he has done for this school in the past, but I don't think he's the right man for the job anymore. The game has passed him by. Recruiting-wise, we aren't able to keep up, and scheme-wise there are some fundamental issues that have remained constant throughout numerous playcallers, that there has to be something fundamentally off behind the scenes. And while having him coach here through 2016 sounds ideal, I don't know, I'm just not sure the direction we're on right now, watching us miss high level recruit after high level recruit, I am almost afraid of what the team is going to look like in that 2016 season. Offensively, we should be better (downright near impossible to be any worse) but with Fuller on the way out, and the losses we're going to see at DL with shockingly few talented bodies coming in to replace... I don't know.
What are your thoughts? Personally, the only reason I see to keep Beamer around is in honor of the past he's brought us, and while I like that, I also can't help but to feel like we might be mortgaging the future by doing so. I feel like we're at a crossroads right now, and I'm not overly sure on what the decision should be.
Comments
I'll be honest I didn't bother reading this. Don't post this as a rant after losing out on another recruit. Posts like this are reserved for whenever (IF-ever) we lose to UVA, lose the bowl streak, etc. Not after a 5-star recruit chooses a defending national champion over a 6-win VT.
Bingo. It's great we were in the discussion, but he's from Virginia. He threw us a bone. How many 5 star recruits from OUTSIDE Virginia gave us a look. This isn't something new, and not a new trend. It's reality.
I'm also glad I hit the comments tab instead of the post tab because this landed me right to your comment. Thank you good sir.
This really isn't fair to Alum07. This has always been a place where we respected each other's thoughtful and insightful opinions, even when we disagreed. You didn't have to read it, but you didn't have to hijack his thread. It wasn't a rant, rather he gave a logical argument and asked a reasonable question. It's an unpopular opinion, but I do agree with some of his argument.
Tech's in dire need of DE depth. All the talent that was in Tech's backyard from the 2013-15 cycles doesn't happen very often. Frank himself has said 1) This is his best group of coaches / recruiters, and 2) Winning the state of VA is the most important objective of Tech's recruiting.
It's therefore logical to ask if he should be held accountable for not reaching his own goal.
My question would be: wouldn't this be better as a post in one of the other threads discussing Frank's future?
Personally, I'm glad it has a new thread. New details, new discussion.
I mean, I don't really care but it just seems a bit repetitive.
Who cares?
I was just asking a question dude.
This may not qualify but during the season we've had quite a few threads discussing CFB's future, some of which were entirely unnecessary/repetitive.
Well said Joe. The glass is always half-full people hold it against some of us for differing/pessimistic viewpoints of the state of the program.
People should be upset that we missed on Sweat. It is a BIG deal if you understand the bigger picture.
VT hasn't recruited the state of Virginia this poorly since the early 90s. The downward trend started after the David Wilson and Logan Thomas class. That class is completely gone from the program now. We have lost a very important edge that we had and it will be difficult (maybe impossible?) to re-obtain under Frank Beamer.
For those of us that want nice things - New Years Day bowls, ACC Championship game appearances - this is tough to get used to.
Gotta agree with Joe on this one.
He brought up some pretty good points that I tend to agree with. Overall, this staff seems to say all the right things, but the results on the field and in recruiting just aren't living up to the expectations they set. I'm a big believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not so sure Frank and company are going to be able to dig their way out of this. I'll gladly eat crow if he proves me wrong...
The answer to the asked question is sadly YES.
Perhaps it was unfair of me to blast away. But I, for one, am growing tired of a new post seemingly every week questioning Frank's future. We've discussed it many times here before, and personally I just feel that there is not much left that hasn't been already said. It's why I tried to stay away from TKP after each loss this season, not because of the content, but because of the outpouring of 'fire this coach, fire that coach' posts. This, to me, is a similar situation.
Apologies, Alum07, for coming across too harshly. You're certainly entitled to your opinions.
My biggest problem was this part of your comment:
And then you proceeded to put me on blast for what you assumed was a rant (when, if you read, you would have known it clearly wasn't) and in doing so made a little mini-rant of your own. If you want to put me on blast, have at it, just know what you're talking about before you do.
Agree...completely appropriate and inevitable post, whichever opinions one may have.
Sorry, But you seem to post a new topic like this regularly so I can understand him skipping ahead. You also bring this up repeatedly in other topics. I don't know you, but I do know you have been wanting there to be a change for a while.
This article deals with the poor recruitment, not poor playing which is what all of the other articles deal with. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. That is what we're doing.
Part of me wonders about the whole "if we lose to UVA, lose the bowl streak, etc" part of the attitude that does seem to be prevelant within Hokiedom.
To me, both of those goals are the definition of mediocrity. Is going to the MIlitary Bowl just to continue a streak that really doesn't mean that much when you arn't winning most of those games a reason not to reflect honestly on the state of a program? Beating UVA is great. Losing 6-3 to Wake is not. Getting blasted at home by a Miami team that will probably never return to what they once were is not. Getting handled by a bad Pittsburgh team, or an average at best ECU team, are all signs that weigh more heavily on the direction of the program much more IMO than beating a crap team like UVA or going to another meaningless bowl that we have a great shot at losing.
Not knocking that attitude persay, but it becomes more obvious each season that either we can be the program that is happy with those average to below average results, or we can be the program that starts finding ways to turn the ship around.
Losing out on players of this caliber will not help us turn the ship around. As someone mentioned, 5 * players in other states barely give us the time of day (short of a Fuller type player with a close personal connection, you think there is any prayer Kendall is here otherwise). If that is the case, then it becomes even more imperative that you find a way to get some from your own state.
There's plenty of people outside the program/fan base who mock the bowl streak due to the fact that we've lost so many of them/haven't done well in BCS bowls etc.
They can mock that bowl streak, but they mock out of jealously. What the streak means is that we (Virginia Tech) have built a program of consistency over the last 2 decades, that even at it worst, is only bested by FSU. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with 6-6, and I want to see more 9, 10, or more win seasons, but you also have to look at the other side of things too. 5 of our losses were by one score or less.
With a little luck and a few favorable bounces it is not inconceivable that we could be sitting here with one loss (or two depending on the ACCCG) singing the praises of Frank and preparing for at worst a trip to the Orange Bowl.
Alas, that is not the case. Too many injuries, and too many wrong bounces of that oblong devil ball this year. However, it does give me hope for next year. More experienced players, more knowledge of the system, lots of prayers for health, a little luck for good measure, and it could be a very good year.
Sorry, but I completely disagree. I don't buy into Frank's "one or two plays away" thing. This is a bad team. We can certainly attribute a lot of it to youth/injuries but the last 3 seasons haven't been pretty.
< blockquote > texttexttexttext < / blockquote >
remove the spaces
Thanks.
They mock it yet "their" school has had a season in the last 10 years more than likely where they won FIVE games or less.
Agreed. I also read the title and then just scrolled down to see the reactions. Yours matches mine.
Not even a rant, maybe you should read it before you prematurely acuse someone of ranting.
This is the attitude causing a currently mediocre football program to allow an average-at-best over-the-hill coach to stay years after he's stopping recruiting at the tenable--not even average, just tenable--level necessary to stay competitive at the division of football we play. We have recruited exactly one DE to play DE in the last three years. Total. And that's assuming Trevon Hill can get past his issues with assault to make it to the team.
Recruiting is half of Beamer's job, he treats it like it doesn't exist. You literally cannot have a successful P5 program without some semblance of recruiting. We're terrible at it, Beamer is the worst recruiter on our staff. On top of that his special teams and offense have been atrocious for a long time. It's time for him to go, the OP is right, and this opinion is absolutely absurd.
Ah, yeah...I can keep up with all the posters so far, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. You, on the other hand, contribute nothing to the discussion other then berating a coach and criticize another TKP members opinion.
You're right, my post about the situation at VT--even containing facts!--is far worse than the other guy's post about not reading the OP.
Look, I have no problem with your take on the situation at VT and I would be happy to read your opinion and what you think the best course of action to fix it would be. Thats why I am a member here. My disagreement with your post (notice I did not down vote you for it) is going the all
and
route.
Leave those parts out and your post would have been an opinion post that I would have given some thought too.
Over the hill is not an opinion, it is a fact, or else he could recruit or coach, hth. It's not even an overly negative remark. I'm not calling him names, I'm not denigrating the man, but his own results bear out that he's lost quite a lot the last few years. Beamer has been a good coach for this program, but aside from the natty loss and a 10-win streak of seasons in the worst power conference in the country, he hasn't accomplished anywhere near what the 'legendary' coaches that got to stay way past their prime did. He doesn't pull in top recruiting classes, he doesn't win or--any longer--even really compete for national championships.
The opinion that a massive failing of our entire program doesn't matter is also in fact absurd. Simply the truth. I love VT, I've watched every single game since my freshman year in 2003. We've been struggling for three straight years to reach bowl eligibility. If that's where you think the program should be, good for you.
Home freaking Run!
I beg to differ, CB being over the hill is an opinion, yours. Not all others share that opinion, nor is everyone under the opinion that he cannot recruit.
Your opinion that we have a massive failure of our entire program is also that, your opinion. I can respect that. I, on the other hand, am not so ready to declare this team, or program, a massive dumpster fire. I saw some bad things this year but I also saw some good things that gives me hope for the upcoming year. I could be wrong, but, being the eternal optimist, I dont think so.
But, you know what, this is a volatile subject, especially now, so rather than getting into an argument about what is an opinion and what is a fact, lets just call it all good and go on our way.
That's ridiculous, and putting words in my mouth. "The opinion that a massive failing of our entire program doesn't matter is also in fact absurd." is referring to recruiting, which the OP said wasn't important enough to merit comment. Nowhere in our program have we recruited to our needs in a very, very long time. One DE, three years. One OL a year for years running. No QBs for years, miss after miss after miss at DL and LB. This is simply a fact; our recruiting is atrocious. Sometimes we get lucky with hidden gems, but a solid 10+ members of our roster simply do not deserve a D1 scholarship. We have zero depth at any position but RB, which is rife with injuries unfortunately.
Also. Over-the-hill means past one's prime. Do you seriously think Beamer's still in his prime? Can you point to a single piece of evidence anywhere in the execution of his employment responsibilities that shows Beams is still in his prime? I'd say '99 was his prime, everything since has been downhill, but by every single metric the last 3 years have been the worst of the Beamer era since he first took over the program. That means, without question, that he's past his prime. He's lost the ability to compete at a high level against terrible teams in most facets of the game. It happens to literally everyone.
Pretty sure we took 3 and a transfer last year, then there's bucky..so....yea...
And before that? We haven't landed a single high-end QB before that since TYROD. And neither Durk or Ford is anywhere near a Vick/Randall/Vick/Tyrod talent. Otherwise we wouldn't be starting Brewer this year; the kid's tough as hell, but he's not a good QB compared to what we had through Tyrod/Logan--and Logan wasn't supposed to be a QB either.
Edit: And who's this mystery 3rd QB that we absolutely didn't take last year? We got two and a transfer, and the only good athlete of the three probably won't even play QB.
good athlete being durkin?
Yeah. Wouldn't be surprised to see him at tight end, heard neither he nor Ford has shown much yet.
Eh, I've heard the exact opposite.
I've heard the coaches really like Durkin.
I heard that was true early in the year, but between the injury and just being young he's shown very little improvement. If Brewer and Motley hadn't been able to come back into the UVA game, FORD would've had his redshirt burned. And Ford's arm strength is still piddly at this point; boy needs some time in S&C.
The third QB is probably Travon McMillian. I think he came in as a QB recruit.
I thought he switched to RB last year and redshirted
You are correct on me incorrectly attributing the massive failing of our entire program to you, apologies. I did mean it as you referenced it, to recruiting, but didnt quote it correctly. Recruiting has always, for as long as I can remember, been for VT a mid to high twenties event (I could not find any websites with historical data to back this up). This year will be no different.
As far as over the hill goes, no, in my opinion I dont believe that he has reached that point. I thought that Paterno had, never had an opinion on Bowden, and not real sure about Spurrier yet.
But I guess we are going off on a tangent, your opinion will probably not change mine, as I would not expect mine to change yours. I enjoy reading everyones different opinion and their reasoning and every once in a while throwing in mine.
You're quite right; we've always landed classes around 25th generally, normally between 25-30 by most services. It doesn't really matter what your class is ranked though, if you're not filling your needs. If you have 4 total DEs on roster, you need to land one at some point. We're going on three classes straight right now where we may not.
Here's the thing about opinions...everyone can have them, but they are only as good as the facts that support them.
There is literally no indication at this current time that Coach Frank Beamer is better now than he was a few years ago. Hence the "over the hill comment" that the other poster made. In fact, all empirical evidence suggests the contrary, let alone the dreaded "eye test".
Forget recruiting for a second, one can simply point to offensive production, special teams production, management of the coaching staff. Wins and losses on the gridiron. There are numerous measurements that clearly suggest that the coaching of this football team is worse than it has been that have nothing to do with ones opinion.
There are problems with the program, I dont disagree with anyone on that. Not that long ago (2011) Virginia Tech finished their streak of 10 win seasons. The next year we went 7 6, and we basically revamped the entire offensive coaching staff. Everyone celebrated. The following season we lost the offensive line coach to LSU ( believe) so we hired a new one. At the beginning of this year I think that everyone would have predicted that an 8 win season would have been great. Then we beat anOSU and all of a sudden we were going to the ACCCG.
So we have a 2 year offensive coordinator, a 1 year offensive line coach, a 1st (for VT) year quarterback, basically no running backs left, a lot of freshmen starting because of injuries, go 6 6, and we collectively think the sky is falling (oh, and a new AD). Very few coaches can walk into a program and turn it around in a season, it has happened but I believe that is more an anomaly then a truth, so in my opinion we need to give Loeffler and Searels some time. Our recruiting is good but not great. We dont have great depth like say Alabama, Ohio State, or FSU. An injury to a starter impacts us much more than it impacts, say, Ohio State (I give you their quarterbacks as an example).
So for me, Virginia Tech is on a rebuilding cycle. I expect to see improvement over the next two years, if not then I will be on the need to revamp the entire coaching staff bandwagon. Do I think that CB has lost his touch, no. And if he has, I expect Whit to address the issue, just as I expect CB to address any issues he has with Loeffler or Foster, and so on down the line. And if CB is unable, or unwilling, to do that than again, Whit needs to step in. That doesn't mean that we cant talk about it and put out there what we think should happen, it's interesting and entertaining to read what everyone thinks and feels.
I love Virginia Tech sports because of who they are and how they play. I think that comes from FB, his love for VT seems to trickle down to the players and they put their heart and soul into every game. I was not calling out Nur_Neerg on what he posted, just the way it came across. Overall he had some good arguments.
Hey RealDiehl, I'll be honest as well. If you didn't read anything don't bother posting anything. I'm getting tired of all the "old guys" on this site trying to bully new guys for there valid opinions. (not saying Alum07 is new, just something I noticed this season on TKP) Everything he said was pretty much true. He has a right to be upset that VT swings and misses on VA recruits year after year. Shane Beamer was supposed to come to this program and recruit and he has under preformed. Something needs to be done here, I thought with making Steinspring focus on recruiting more instead of just coaching it would help but it looks like I was wrong.
Stiney hasn't been the problem. He has been working his butt off and has done a solid job recruiting the 757 after Newsome. At the end of the day, it all boils down to Beamer and his inability to close with the big boys.
hey if your tired of the should frank be fired post maybe you should check out the should scott loeffler be fired post instead that one is new right???
I disagree and I'll ask you this, "We fire Beamer TOMORROW.... what do you do? who replaces him?"
EDIT: The reason I disagree is because I don't see a better alternative to Frank at the moment. If there was a clear "improvement" I think my position would change
BUD
So who comes in after Bud takes over to be the "difference maker"? We've seen some improvement in recruiting, since Lefty, Shane, etc were brought in (landing a 4* OL, this year is a VAST improvement vs the two years prior to the change on the O side of the ball).
Are you proposing a wholesale change in the staff along with Bud? I'd love to see Bud take over, but if we're concerned about recruiting, it'll take more than Bud as HC.
A good football coach....
As opposed to the Hall of Fame coach we have now?
You mean the CFHoF coach that failed to actually win a MNC during the time at his institution among his coaching peers?
Hahahahahahaha you pro-beamer guys trip me out. If you really loved Frank, like me, you'd want him to leave RIGHT NOW while he's on top and before things get too ugly. I've seen this too many times.....Paterno, Bowden, etc. For Franks sake, his legacy, health, and most of all FOR VIRGINIA TECH FOOTBALL, he needs to retire. This program needs a breath of fresh air. You gotta admit....
I'm not a staunch defender that Frank can do no wrong, but you do realize that Paterno coached until he was 84 and Bowden until he was 80, right? To put that into perspective, Beamer would have to coach until 2026 to be the same age as Bowden and freaking 2030 to be the same age as Paterno.
It's not just physical age though, I think. Some people reach their peak and subsequently decline before others. Not saying that's absolutely the case for Frank, but recent evidence suggests he might be starting to head down that same career path as the other two.
Bingo. Bobby Bowden was 70 when he won the Natl Title in 00' vs Tech. Beamer is 68 and he peaked like 10 yrs ago. I'm not talking about their actual age, just to the point in their career that they peaked.
Just because he is going to be a HOF coach doesnt justify in keeping him
I understand that, but I was referring to his saying that he wants a good coach, implying that Frank isn't a good coach.
I gotcha.... Purely a question not to spark a debate, just a question.... Do you think he is still a good coach? and why?
I honestly do. Look at this year as a perfect example: Lots of injuries, starting lots of freshmen (totally out of character), lost some heartbreaker games early. Did the players give up? They easily could have, they could have tanked the season and just not tried. But they didn't. Yes, this speaks to the character of players we have, but it also speaks volumes about the coaches, especially the head coach. First he is the one ultimately responsible for getting players of character into this program. And secondly he kept them motivated, he kept them focused when all hell was breaking out around them.
Brewer didn't have to come back into the game against UVA, Coleman was hurting, so was Wang and Dadi and Ken. Chase Williams was playing with a big brace on his knee. They could have sat out. What did it matter; we were a 5-6 team, not like we were playing for a championship, right? But did you see one bit of quit in that team? I didn't, hell Chase broke his brace in half and played a down with it hanging in fragments from his leg! "I'll keep getting up if you keep pushing forward." That attitude starts at the top. Not all results of coaching fit into the Win/Loss columns.
In short I think that Frank AND his staff did an excellent job of coaching and I look forward to see the team that they field next year.
I am all for players not giving up and thats great and all but I think it comes down to gameplan/how well they execute and recruiting. Do you think he is still a great coach when it boils down to that?
Personally I don't get to sit in the meetings or get to see how the gameplans are drawn up. I'm also not on the recruiting trail or in the recruiting meetings to hear what the strategy is, so I can't really speak to those matters.
That being said, you did ask for my opinion. When you look at the number of wins he has and the number of players that have gone through this system to play in the NFL, and more importantly gone on to be good people regardless of if they played in the NFL, I think I'd have to say yes, using those metrics.
I've NEVER considered Frank as great. Do y'all not remember his first 5ish years? They were ready to run him off. Then he hired Bud as D coordinator. Bud Foster and Mike Vick are the reasons why Frank is where he is and where Tech is. Even with all if that said, I love Frank! He's won a ton of games. The guy has done and still does things the right way (which is a rare quality to have in college football today), and he's just one hell of a guy in general, and he's been important to Tech. But he's NOT MORE important than VIRGINIA TECH, the football program AND the school. He needs to realize that, and if he really does love Tech, then he'll be a man and step down. The time is now. I don't want it to get any uglier than it already has.
Reading this just makes me think where would we be without Bud. Would Frank really have won as many games as he has if not for Bud? That's kinda scary when you think about it.
Finally, somebody that understands. Thank you.
If you didnt think the last 3 years could get worse, without Bud it would have. The number of games on the dge that the defense saved is ridiculous. Wake Forest is what happens when the defense is out of energy and done
There's a reason I've been calling it Fosterball for a while now.
If you believe some of the rumors that are swirling around the program right now, we'll get to find out first hand next year when Bud is the DC at A&M.
(current rumor is that Whit basically told him that he won't be the next head coach, so Bud decided staying at VT isn't in his best interests career-wise anymore, so he's looking elsewhere and A&M offered a contract with a ludicrous salary)
la la la, can't hear you!
If that is indeed the case then we are truly f-k'd. Only thing I can think of is giving Coach Gray a promotion to even partially salvage that disaster.
That got me wondering who he might take with him, should he leave.
Very well said.
See this is where it comes to for me. I'm not disagreeing with your (Alum07) points, but there've been infinity-billion threads, articles, blogs, etc on this topic. You haven't provided who will step in and not only replace him, but take the program further than he has (improved bowl record Ws, more Ws against top 10 teams, playoffs and MNCs, more 4-5* recruits, etc).
Exactly. There's a certain percentage of people that want to pull the plug on Frank. What if the next guy comes in and cleans house, new OC, new DC, whole deal and goes 2-10 (with losses to uVA) 2 years in a row? Gonna fire him too? Then who comes in? Right now I'm happy with Frank until he decides to leave, thank you. He has made moves to improve this team and I fully believe that the team will improve, have a little patience. We are not going to land every 5 * out there, yes it would be great to get more than we do, but that takes time. These kind of knee-jerk reactions are what kills programs.
You misunderstood me. In light of the last 3 seasons I think he's lost "calling his own shots" about when to hang it up. I think he should be given one (I reiterate ONE) more season to improve (from my perspective it needs to be 9 Ws or better). If he and the team achieves that, then we'll talk. If not, well, then "thanks for your service and all you've done."
Sorry McGruber, I wasn't meaning to sound like I was arguing with you, I was trying to re-enforce your point of not having a viable option to follow Frank (many say Bud, but as a head coach he is an unknown commodity, he's interviewed for head positions before, why hasn't he landed one? There seems to be something there, I may be wrong though). Let me prerequisite then end of my next sentence with this: Barring another series of injuries, next year will be better. I'm not a betting person (don't have the money to lose) but I would be willing to bet on that.
like the middle east, you can't announce your departure... the market for coaches we'd want is not that liquid
we have to be opportunistic and when the right situation happens, Whit will pull the trigger
will it be external HC or Bud with SL or Bud with External.... and how much do you compromise based on what you find in the marketplace?
the Virginia market can produce a NC... but it starts with recruiting better in Virginia
I'd rather end up at 2-10 for 2 seasons and make great progress to where we once were than remain 6-6 for the next 4
Really difficult to do that in college.
In the NFL you're at least getting a shot at a high draft pick when you have a terrible season, it's pretty tough to be terrible for a few years and still recruit well/rebuild.
The problem is that when you go 2-10, you then don't normally jump to 10-2 seasons. You go 2-10, 2-10, 4-8, 3-9, 6-6, 6-6, 5-7 (fire coach), 2-10, 2-10.....
Auburn 2012: 3-9, 2013: 12-2 with 1 loss being in the national championship game. This is about as dramatic as it gets, but there are other examples. That was Malzahn's 1st season.
LSU 1999: 3-8, won the 2003 national championship under Saban (his 3rd year there).
Alabama was 6-7 (and vacated most of those wins) the year prior to hiring Saban in 2007. They won the 2009 national championship.
Maybe it's not what normally happens, but coaching changes can bring dramatic results, especially with recruiting. I have no desire to watch Frank hang on until he has his 2-10, then boot him. I'd much rather see him go out with his bowl and UVA win streaks intact.
I thought 2007 was Saban's first year at Bama. Wasn't that when they lost to a midmajor or two at home?
Either way, your point is dead on. Quick turn arounds can and do happen, especially when the coaches in question bring in either A) exceptional recruiting skill (Saban) or B) exceptional skill at developing systems (Malzahn)
Look at the University of Arizona. I work in Tucson all the time and nobody gave a hoot about that football team. Enter Rich Rod and they are set to challenge in the Pac 12 South for years the way they are currently constructed.
I understand that its unlikely that VT is going to land a hire on that level of a Bama or Auburn, but I think Whit is competent enough and has shown he deserves some trust from the fanbase when that time comes.
No kidding. I live in Tucson and the doom and gloom around Wildcat football the last couple of years of Stoops' tenure (and even Mackovic before him) was overwhelming...and all this at a basketball school. What separates Rich Rod is his ability to get the best out of his players. And I'm sure Rich Rod would trade his recruiting classes for ours any day of the week, which makes his work in the old pueblo even more remarkable.
Last year, he effectively ran his system with a walk-on QB, can you ever see VT doing that under the current offensive staff? I've been watching VT football since 1990 and can definitely say: no. It's coaching ability and coaching philosophy.
Finally, Arizona has a similar amount of resources to VT, but not the national name (if you're generous and still consider us a national name-I doubt most casual fans would anymore). I can't imagine it's that easy to recruit here, we're definitely playing second fiddle to Phoenix in pretty much everything. The desert isn't for everyone, especially when most of the football recruits come from Texas and California.
So, if it can be done at Arizona(as it has been done in other places all over the country), why not at VT? There simply aren't any excuses, we should be better than we are with the foundation in place. I get asked this question all the time: whatever happened to VT? Enough said.
I think French put it pretty well a week or two ago.
I'm definitely not on the "Fire Frank" side of this, but one interesting prospect did pop up (at least in my mind) while reading a blog on this year's Military Bowl....
How about Tubs? Chizik stepped in to use Tubs' recruits to win an NC (he also made a great choice in OC).
that would definitely continue their storied history as a head coach stepping stool.
I think Tuberville would stand a good chance at staying at VT for a while. Fired from Auburn, then TTU then Cincy, then VT sounds like he might consider retiring as VT head coach. Would be very interesting.
If he can keep Bud around with a promise to bring in a more modern offense (Bud has said he would run a more modern offense if he was HC IIRC), then all the better.
Don't know about recruiting ties in VA though.
can't be worse than what we have now...
I didn't think he was fired from any of them. He left Auburn to take time off from coaching, took the job at TTU when Mike Leach was fired, and resigned from TTU to take the Cincy.
I doubt very much that Tubberville would be interested in moving to another school, from the Article Andy Bitter linked to the other day:
So done before 68
I'm posted my choices on previous threads but I'll let Whit take care of that, that's why he get's paid the big bucks.
Plz stahp.
read the man's post before you write him off and downvote. the timing of this post seems a bit knee jerk-y, but it doesn't really come off as a rant. he's trying to drum up discussion.
Agreed. Not a troll or a #HOTTAKE. You don't have to agree with it, but don't automatically dismiss it because of the timing.
Thank you, and a leg for pointing it out
Too many people see "long post after something happens... must be a rant" and then mock without actually reading what was being said. Nothing bothers me more than someone who comes on and flames without even caring about what is actually going on.
Come up with a better thread title and maybe it won't look like a knee jerk overreaction.
Good suggestion. The one I originally used I thought accomplished this, but you're right.
Done, and leg for the suggestion.
Fair, but don't we already have plenty of threads regarding Frank's future?
Better. I wasn't a downvoter but I read very little of the article. The title immediately made me want to avoid it and most of the (over)reactions right now have forced me to actually prefer to do work today.
I'm not saying it's a rant, but this post seems reactionary, and because if the timing, and not the content, seems to be a click bait title to get emotional resposes after losing a big recruit.
Edit: Hokie x3 beat me to my point, damn phone takes forever to type on.
We've drummed up the discussion more than any of us would like to hear for the past two months.
that being said, frank beamer has been the head coach at virginia tech since before i was born. he was in blacksburg for years before attending Tech was even a thought in my mind. i honestly don't feel like i have been around long enough to be justified in calling for his firing. it just wouldn't feel right to me.
the program doesn't seem to be in a good place right now. i started out this season with tempered expectations. and i know we've had a tough time with injuries. but, man, based on everything i saw post week 2, i'm not convinced we can compete next year or even the year after if everything stays the same.
Edit: admittedly guilty of skimming and a reactionary post, my bad
I'm sorry, but please stop. I don't see this as a rant, but it sure seems a lot like the other few dozen threads/discussions we've had here in the last two months or so.
I think by this point everyone has a well established opinion on whether they think Frank should stay or go, and I'm not here to debate that, because it's been done dozens of times already. What good does posting another thread about it do? How many people here have changed their opinions because on the 7th attempt, something clicked and they said, "hey, they're right about this!"?
The simple fact of the matter is this:
1) Everyone has already made up their minds/has an opinion on this. If it changes, it's because of something football related that's actually happened, not because of even the most well-reasoned, thought-out post here on TKP.
2) Even if/when you've made up your mind, there's not much we can do. Message Whit if you'd like, but that's about your limit. Unless you actually are Whit, talking about it here really does nothing. Your only other option, if you see fit, is to stop supporting the program, which I personally think is a lousy way of going about calling for change.
I just don't see the need to have the same discussions over and over and over again.
Those discussions were always predicated on "if we land Sweat, Dalton, and Settle, a lot of our issues would be resolved", and there was always the underlying "we should revisit this after the recruiting cycle" to those threads.
Well, the recruiting season is well underway, and we are getting a lot of clarity with the class we're bringing in, and the top end talent isn't going to be anywhere near the quality that most were hoping. Figured with the basis of the previous convos, it was worth revisiting with a clearer picture of this year.
Didn't you know you're only allowed to sing kumbaya on here? I have no qualms with you bringing up this discussion because as much as people love justify every loss of a big recruit like it doesn't matter, it does. We have a problem here and many people just enjoy to prolong ever talking about it in hopes that it will never matter.
Didn't we just have a discussion yesterday on the percentage of recruits that pan out based on star rankings? And today we're discussing how we don't need Josh Sweat's because we get Dadi Nicolas's?
Agreed we have more clarity on the class we're bringing in- hence I said that the actual results are what will change people's minds, one way or another. Posting the same topic for discussion so we can have the same discussion over and over with one more data point really isn't going to change people's minds, IMO.
Indeed.
Winning or losing the UVA didn't factor into the equation when asking "Can Frank Beamer still win a National Championship?". Landing Josh Sweat (and other top talent, particularly top in-state talent) did and does. Anyone who thinks that this development doesn't hurt Tech's chances of winning a championship before Beamer leaves is wrong.
Now whether or not this recruiting loss is the straw that broke the camel's back... I'm not so sure. I'll have to think on it. My gut reaction is no.
Agreed. Keeping players motivated, trying to fix the offense by hiring Loeffler (very debatable), piloting the team to wins at ranked Ohio St and Duke point to "yes" in the on-field coaching department of "can he still do it". The other -some say more important- part of being a college football head coach is recruiting. If your goal is to coach to a national championship, you need to recruit elite talent. Right now, a few years ago, and for the foreseeable future, Virginia Tech, under Frank Beamer, is not getting, did not get, and will not get elite talent. Other schools getting elite talent have elite recruiters in the big chair. We have very good recruiters around Frank, that's apparent because we were, as a 6-6 team, in it to the bitter end going up against a team that hasn't lost a game in two years. But it's becoming clear to me that Frank, not necessarily through any fault of his own, is just not a good enough salesman to bring in the cream of the crop right now.
I don't know what this means for his continued employment. The question Whit has to decide is this: what will lose the program more ground?
1) Keeping Frank through 2016, hopefully continuing to sign decent (25-30th) recruiting classes, and dealing with continued mediocrity after hopefully righting the ship on offense, then diving into the coaching search. That's a lot of hopefully, for maybe getting to 9 or 10 wins.
- or -
2) Firing Frank now (or at least prepare an exit strategy for next year, depending on how Whit's rolodex is looking), and trying to jump start the recruiting effort with a new head coach. This probably means not Bud, unless he can convince Whit that all the misses on defense recruiting were Frank's fault. So the defense will probably get worse, but the offense has, what, 100+ spots to improve? And with the tradition built, I'm not worried at all that we'd be able to hire a very good defensive coordinator (maybe even from Bud's coaching tree).
What I do know is that we won't have the top-flight talent needed to compete for a championship before Frank retires. Isn't that why we wanted him to stick around? We're staring improved (hey, Austin Clark, nice to have you) mediocrity in the face, and I don't know how far that sets us back for the post-Frank era. New coach coming in off a playoff appearance? Sign me up! New coach coming in off an uninspiring run of mid-level ACC performances? Why wait 2 more years? Let's start climbing now.
I didn't know I was at this point until today.
I guess one of many other options for Whit is to hire Bud as the new head coach, which I would actually like to see. We get more years of guaranteed top-flight defense, and get to see what sort of weight he carries as a recruiter with a fancy head coach title. But it's hard to see how he leads us to new heights, not knowing how good of a head coach he'd actually be
Sorry, man. I want a clean program and a poor bagman.
We learned yesterday your definition of modern football and I definitely disagree. You made clear you don't like CFB and your reasons why. I wholeheartedly disagree. Call me old school that way.
I'd like to find out the reason why we don't get these guys before we advocate to fire all the coaches. That seems very knee jerk to me. What if it's not the coaches?
What if it's the weather, rural location access to fresh seafood, or length of Mom's apron strings?
How would firing the coaching staff change any of these things?
Find out the reason first, then adjust, don't adjust and then discover the reason.
" Id't like to find out the reason we didn't get these guys". Source / Mama SWEAT - " Josh needs to be comfortable with the coaches of the school he chooses." The fact that anyone would be more comfortable around a slime ball like Jimbo Fisher , over our coaches is puzzling.
maybe more comfortable that the coach he commits to will be there when he graduates in 4 years.
Maybe not making a decision and letting this drag on is worse than saying our bye's and moving on with life. Its like we're trying to hold onto the girl that's a 10 but she is going off to college.. and we all know how that ends up.
Problem is, those "reasons" aren't going to change. The only way to improve recruiting is by increasing national exposure by winning more games or hiring better recruiters.
There seems to be a group of fans who believe that Tech is just never going to be a place where elite athletes want to come play, that Beamer and Co. can't be blamed for failing to draw them to Blacksburg. I disagree completely. If the program is good enough and the coach is magnetic enough, players will overlook plenty of things to go play at a school. There are programs that are located in much worse areas of the country than Blacksburg who recruit elite talent.
Upleged!
i think we might be a little brainwashed at thinking we have a chance at top recruits. We have a good team, good assistant coaches but when it comes down to HC vs HC we get whooped recruit after recruit after recruit...
Good lord If we could recruit and get to sign an 5*out of state player (that didn't have 4 brothers go to VT) I would have no idea what to do, sadly its not going to happen in the beamer time frame.
oh and that's 1 player .. good start amrite?
Kendall Fuller. Baltimore, Md.
Strictly speaking, Kendall was an out of state 5 star
strictly speaking, yes.
i don't want to take anything away from the coaches on that one, but kendall was about as close to a freebie as you can get in recruiting.
100% agree. Interestingly enough, i wonder if we would've gotten him with a different coaching staff
Dadi was a 3 star from Delray Beach, FL. Find 2 forgotten recruits from their backyard and let Bud & co turn them into monsters. We'll beat out the FSU's and Bama's here and there, but this is the recruiting game today. As much as we all love VT and Blacksburg, it's not that strong a sell to most kids and these programs with overflowing trophy cases are.
Here, here.
Maybe it is time to be proactive instead of reactive. Let's do something (anything) before the problem of 6-6 seasons, missing out on star in-state recruits, and having an offense that is just slightly above terrible becomes common place. Not saying Frank needs to go, but status quo is not the answer either. Let's do SOMETHING!
We did, we hired SL and Morehead and revamped our offense. Year one SL had Logan and a lot of unproven players on offense and had to adjust what he wanted to run to the talent he had. Year two we got to see more of what SL wants to do, but injuries brought in a lot of inexperience and some poor execution. Let our offense get healthy and with another year learning SL's system and I have full confidence that our offense will be dangerous.
You are a kinder man than I.
I'm a rather intuitive guy and my big old gut tells me Frank Beamer is much more likely to make a decision on his future sooner rather than later! He won't need to be told when to hang it up!
I'm not sure why anyone is surprised we aren't landing top rated recruits. We never have so it isn't like it is a decline in recruiting. Our recruiting has actually been pretty good the last few years compared to years before. Missing out on the top player in the country 2 years in a row is no shock especially considering they went to the national champs. How many times were we even in consideration for multiple 5 star recruits in the same year? The recruiting isn't where we want it but it isn't in free fall either. We have pulled in a bunch of OL guys (including flipping a 4* from the SEC) and a ton of skill players last year. Our DL recruiting is the only thing that has really lagged behind but we did bring in 3 DTs last year and have more coming this year. We could use another 2 DEs in this class but we have Hill who is highly underrated and still have a shot with Gaines.
I am bummed we didn't get Sweat or Dalton but not surprised. I still think our recruiting is getting better and if it gets better each year, soon we will be getting more of the elite guys. It isn't going to change for us over night. I am not sure I would want to give up the face of the program and the school who built us up from nothing just to jump ahead a couple years. Call me old school but I am proud to call Beamer our coach even in a down year. Some schools rebuild and some schools reload. We haven't been able to reload and are rebuilding but that is a cycle that happens to every program, even the big ones.
Until I see a new head coach come in and sign 5 star players over the CFB royalty, I can't in good faith say Beamer is the main reason we don't sign them today. Since Beamer brought us to national relevance, he's been the only head coach to recruit with our current stature. If Beamer and Jimbo switched spots, would Sweat have signed here? Maybe, but whoever the FSU coach is, they have a much better product to sell recruits.
More in direct response to Alum07, it's easy in hindsight to look back and say we didn't do enough to secure our position in the early 2000s. I wasn't following at the time, but wasn't that the era of "we're Virginia Tech, we don't need blue chippers. We get it done by coaching em' up!" Serious question about what the thought was back then
That's a great question and I'll go based on my own experience, having been at Tech during that time. There was a lot of hand-wringing that we weren't capitalizing on the high profile that we had. A lot of the younger generation felt that we could be doing a lot more with the success that we were having, but those with money and the elder generation didn't see the need, as (and still remains the belief today) we do better with the undervalued and overlooked talent. In hindsight, I'm actually not so sure this really is the case. Some of our best players to come through the program since 1999 came in as very highly regarded recruits. Kevin Jones, Tyrod Taylor, Kendall Fuller, David Wilson, Ryan Williams, Marcus Vick (on the field), and many more... They were all very high talented players coming in, and delivered on the field. In fact, I think we're at our best when our best recruits are our playmakers, and when we loaded up on the 4* and 5* guys, the program peaks during their upperclassmen years. We also have a very good track record in bringing out the best in the high rated recruits we bring in, which makes it hurt so much more when we continually lose out on them nowadays.
Coaching up the undervalued guys works best when you're a hungry up and coming program. But we're not that anymore, and we haven't been that for a long time. We are a program with expectations, and we really need to bring in guys who can consistently live up to high expectations annually.
From all the #sources regarding hokie club drop offs and general malcontent, it seems like the donors are coming around. Now that recruiting is so publicized, I think the money is seeing the connection. I don't know if Whit makes a change this offseason, but whoever the next guy is better land some fish, since he won't have the goodwill Frank does. Interested to see where the results and expectations come together
Completely agreed. The masses are not happy, and I kinda got to see that first hand when Whit visited the Alumni tailgate for the Duke game from things that were said to me by some of the people working in and around him. I won't go into detail, but the overall gist is that he's tired of hearing the complaints, pure and simple.
The basketball hire he made when he took over the Athletic Department was an excellent start to his tenure at Tech. I also know he wasn't prepared at all for a football coaching change anytime soon this past spring, and said multiple times that he's glad he came into a stable environment like this. Unfortunately, things have eroded fast in football, and what was once stable is now teetering on the edge. The donors aren't happy, the fans stopped showing up to games, and team didn't show the progress he himself was expecting them to show this year. I think a change could be coming sooner than we think, because he just doesn't strike me as a guy who will put up with mediocrity for too long. He harped on and on about how he wants the atmosphere in Lane to be rocking again like he saw when he visited as part of the WVU staff in 2004. I don't doubt him to do whatever he feels is necessary to get back to that point, including a head coaching replacement.
What is very interesting is that there are reports of a pending Bud Foster raise and extension.
Fans stopped showing up at games? For UVA the students were gone yes, but the rest of the stadium was full and loud. The bowl allotment sold out in two days.
For purchased tickets
The average per game for this year 60,800
UVA GAME 60,400 IT was a below average attendance.
Compared to last year tickets sold dropped 4.98
It was a really good attendance for school being out of session on a bitchin cold night the night after Thanksgiving.
I don't think it's an apples to apples thing.
That having been said, attendance was down, a bit this year.
how does it compare to attendance drops nationwide? I thought we went over that in a different thread and it was somewhat muddled by the guys buying tickets in the past to "make the sellout record". But concluded overall that attendance was down less than the national average.
I don't know national numbers yet, leave that much data up to the NCAA, but to compare our equivalent for me
Clemson
It's rocky and It seems to really come down to the scheduled home games. (And this is something Tech has been weak on)
due to rocky-ness I'll include each year
Per Game Avg
2011 77959
2012 81427
2013 82048
2014 79651
This seemed like a weak schedule and if you'v seen Herbstreit's FCS game rants this backs it up
Overall its rocky. But comparing this years attendance per game average to 2011. the last sellout year for tech
Clemson +2.2% compared to 2011
VT -9.6%
Vs instate Rival Games
Clemson v USC (cocks not the condoms)
Attendance was 3.9% HIGHER than avg game attendance
VT v LOLUVA
Attendance was 0.61% LOWER than avg game attendance
I think the in state rival note may be skewed.
First, how many wahoos are traveling to the burg to watch that game? Last time I went to c'ville for this game, there were more Hokies, so if they can't sell out their stadium for the game, they sure aren't traveling for it.
Second, people like competitive games. This year technically may be more representative of that then previous, but pussy/cocks game has a bigger draw, marquee.
I think we see our rivalry as vicious and up there on the list, yet national perception may be lower.
Actually the era of "we don't need blue chippers" was the later 90's. That's when players like Jarrett Ferguson (Note: please forgive any misspellings of names as I'm not a good speller), who was Sam Rogers before there was a Sam Rogers, John Engleberger, Corey Moore, Lee Suggs, Anthony Midget, Jim Grove, Jim Payne, Shyrone Stith, Ike Charleton, Andre Davis, and many more came in as lowly recruited players and were turned into legends. Starting in '95 we were beating Miami (who was getting the big recruits) every year. The feeling was we were a blue-collar type of program with a chip on our shoulder. We played the "Nobody Respects Us" card perfectly. We used starters on Special Teams to block kicks and we would KILL you with our Defense. A part of the fan base didn't want the high rated players because it was thought that they brought too much of the "Me" attitude (DeAngelo Hall) that would undermine the workman type of attitude that had been cultivated. Look at what happened in '03 after the win over Miami. We lost 3 of our next 4 with the only win being a 1 point win at Temple, and the secondary was full of finger-pointing and arguing. Over the years we have done better at acclimating high recruits to our program (with the exception of MV5), and it has paid off. But we still crank out the good guy from nowhere (Sam Rogers).
I guess where I'm going with this is that I feel we need a healthy blend. I think we do need some higher rated players to get where we want to go. BUT they have to be the type of player that will fit into the "Virginia Tech culture". We don't want a player with a lot of baggage and selfish attitude just because he's the best player in the country. We also need to continue to build up what we get, because we're not going to get a lot of the ***** guys, and we won't get any if we don't do good with the ****, the ***, and the ** that we do get.
We're actually in a very similar boat to Miami. Good to great in the late 90s/early 2000s on the backs of recruits from our own little corners. The 757 for us, and South Florida for Miami. As the years went on, spending for both schools didn't kept up with the big boys, and now neither school is the only one fishing their hole.
To hear we are in a similar boat as Miami hurts. I have been laughing at the state of their program for a few years now and now I have to wonder how many people are laughing at ours.
Not disagreeing with you, just the analogy made me think thoughts I didn't want to think about. Feels about like:
Not many people are laughing because we were never a good enough program to merit the national mocking a team and fanbase like Miami gets.
At best we were a regional power. At Miami's best, they had 2 separate dynasties.
To be fair, we have a much greater commitment to resources for the program than Miami. Shalalalalala ran UM football into the ground. We've been outpaced in salary spending, but the Lane Stadium expansion, locker room renovation and indoor practice facility puts us lightyears ahead of Miami's commitment to facilities.
I think you're right.
I think the internet has really hurt us in this aspect:
These two things have made 'diamonds in the rough' harder to find, and harder to recruit in our backyard.
Yes. I'm ready to move on.
At worst case, you give Bud the keys and let him find a competent offensive staff and we roll with it. At best, you pay David Shaw what's hes worth (Stanford reportedly pays poorly) and you build a #manball team for the east coast, with Bud Foster as the DC.
I'm frequently called cynical, but I actually don't think it's time to move on from Frank quite yet. I was encouraged by some of the talent I've seen on the field this year (specifically the WRs, TEs, and young RBs when healthy). The offensive line and QB play clearly needs to be more consistent, but I see more pieces than I did over the last two years when the offensive talent was so poor that we solely relied on Logan Thomas.
The issues with recruiting defensive players is a very real concern to me. The secondary appears to be in good enough shape, but we can't seem to land the LBs, DEs, or DTs that are on top of our board. So while Bud's defensive system continues to prove that it works and can produce at a high level, at some point it does need the horses to produce at a high level.
All that said, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to making a run at Shaw when it comes time for a new head coach.
I think we've done better than we usually do with LBs the last year or two. Tremaine Edmund's is just below a 4* ranking, Carson Lydon, and Damien Dozier are considered middle of the road 3 stars, last year we brought in a 4* LB in Raymond Minor and a high 3 star in Melvin Keihn (currently at DE, but could move back). French has also noted that our highest rated recruit of 2014, high 4* safety Holand Fisher has all the tools to play Linebacker
I applaud what Frank has done for Virginia Tech and I will be eternally grateful for building this program. I'm starting to think Frank's age and ability to connect with young recruits is the reason we have missed on so many big time players lately. Every time I hear Frank speak publicly its always very vague coach-speak that means nothing. I don't hear a lot of actual substantive communication coming out of his mouth. To be fair, I do not know what he says privately to recruits, but if its anything like what he tells the media, Roth and Mike, or Hokie fans in general, I can definitely see why we are losing on the big time recruits.
Just an observation. I could be totally off base.
I'm 32 and I don't connect with 18 year olds either.
Right. You are also not a college football coach. (That I know of).
Just saying its a special skill set to be able to foster a relationship with recruits. Not sure this is or has ever been Frank's wheelhouse. Some are clearly better than others. Jimbos 49 and seems to have no problem connecting. I just think (as a general premise) teenage football standouts would prefer playing for someone they can connect with. I am not seeing it with Frank. Thanks for the reply though.
I think that there's a better connection there than you realize. See the videos of Frank dancing in the locker room with the players after a big win (Duke this year) as evidence.
I just don't see these recruits looking for a buddy. Is Jimbo a better car salesman than Frank, maybe. But I think they could switch schools and the results at each school would remain close to the same.
Also these guys will be spending more time with their position coaches than the HC.
Fair enough. I agree with a lot of that. But I think age does play a factor. I think thats one of the reasons why Moorehead has been great on the recruiting trail. Obviously you don't want to compromise experience for age, but I think its important to have the right balance. Just my two cents.
Probably the uncertainty of when frank retires hurts him most. He is now in that window where he could be gone before a recruit graduates. This is a very real problem that we will have to face for a few years.
Couldn't agree more
Moorehead is also the only guy coming into their house with a Super Bowl ring on his hand.
Could we buy the webspace for TKJ.com? The Knee Jerk? So this stuff can go there and TKP can avoid being flooded with this stuff.
(I was kidding BTW, c'mon. That's what TSL is for)
Instead of wasting money on a domain name why not make a donation to TKP.
http://www.thekeyplay.com/support
This
I just laughed out loud at that. Legs to you!
First time I have seen this. Just pure awesome.
All I have to offer is my love.
http://www.championscampaign.com/about/
I know coaching does wonders but thats not the only thing recruits base their decision on. Check out this Florida State website and see what they're doing to boost (and succeed at) recruiting. $250 million
While I don't think that this (alone) is grounds for a coaching replacement, it is troubling that we cannot land the big recruits that we need, and I think this is a conversation worth discussing.
However, it's tough to discuss knowledgeable since:
A football player with a degree with FSU will have connections and jobs open to him if he is interested in a non-football future. FSU is a winning tradition (more so than VT), and they are winning championships and putting players in the NFL right now.
So, what should a recruit pick VT over FSU?
So, until VT starts winning (which we need these recruits to do), the only thing we can control is point #2 - the recruits must form a relationship with the coaches. I can't really comment on this since I do not know what our coaches are currently doing vs. what they should be doing.
There always seems to be this underlying thread of "rationale" in recruiting analysis. I don't think their reality and our reality are the same things. But that's fine.
Recruits make decisions on a broad range of reasons, from the rationale (they are good, they will prepare me for an NFL career) to the mature (I'm not likely a professional player, but this school will best prepare me for my life) to the whimsical (cheerleaders, food, uniforms, weather).
You don't need to overcome the reality of why a kid picks us over FSU or reinforce the reality of why a kid should pick us over Middle Tennessee State. You need to create your own reality. It's sales. It's not rationale, but that doesn't mean its a.) irrational and you can plan for it or b.) underhanded trickery.
Good comments. And it can be something really minor like dorm room, cafeteria, or weather. Not being picked is not always a slap in the face to the football program.
100% agree, however, if you want different results, you need to change your method. In order to change your method, you need to recognize what you are doing wrong.
I was merely suggesting that as outsiders, we don't really know what our coaches are doing right/wrong. If recruits are set on traveling away from home to sunny weather year-round, then we're out of luck (and will continue to be regardless of our coach). If our coaches are failing at being building relationships and selling recruits on our school, that is something that can be fixed. But we have no idea what the issue is.
When I was a freshmen at tech way back in 1995, I was at Orientation with a baseball player. He strictly chose VT over other schools in the south because of Engineering. At that time, the baseball team wasn't that great from what I recall. I don't recall what happened to that guy, but these are one of many factors we deal with in terms of recruiting. Sometimes guys have friends who attend other schools, sometimes they have a relationship with a coach and some others have strong influence in their decision making from their parents/relatives.
I'm still greater than 50 percent sure having Beamer is better than not having him
Forget Sweat. Forget Hand. Forget Nnadi and whoever else. Don't base it on a miss, or a series of misses on the recruiting trail. Don't base it on an emotional, visceral response.
(Not accusing you of doing this, Alum07, just prefacing my own argument.)
Rationally look at our program. And not that it's currently in a slump.
Frank Beamer is close to retirement. I don't think anyone is going to argue that he has ten years left. Few will argue he has five. He will be gone soon.
Currently VT is in rebuilding mode. We have serious work cut out for us rebuilding the OL, reestablishing inroads to the 757, installing am offensive scheme that gives us consistency and identity while maintaining the level of our defense. This is a big rebuilding project.
Couple that with uncertainty about a post-Beamer future. The changing of the guard at VT will be one of the biggest coaching hires ever in college football. No hyperbole. There are few if any coaches who have become the face of their program to the extent that Beamer has. He's a guaranteed HOF coach who has spent his entire career at the FBS level at one school. That does not happen anymore.
The question is, is Beamer the right choice to lead this rebuilding effort? And at this stage of his career, is he capable of it?
The one thing that is guaranteed is that there WILL be a post-Beamer future at VT. What our looks like, no one knows. But it's coming. For all those people who respond to the calls for change at the top by asking who Frank's successor will be, stahp. That's up to Whit Babcock to decide. But I will guarantee you one thing: the decision making and hiring process will be no easier two seasons from now, or three, or five. There will always be marquee programs performing coaching searches. We'll always have major competition. It'll always be hard to pick a successor to Frank Beamer. Kicking the can down the road won't solve that problem, but damn well might exacerbate others we currently face.
WE CANNOT FEAR THE FUTURE.
When I look at it, the best (and maybe only) reason for Frank to hang on would be to chase the one accolade that has escaped him in his career: a national championship. If we were on the cusp a la 2007, a stone's throw away from the upper echelon in the rankings, knocking on the door of the playoffs, then there would be a damn good argument for Frank giving it a few more go rounds. But we aren't even in the same zip code as the playoffs.
Frank has had one hell of a coaching career and he will always be a beloved figure at VT, but there is the question, what is the benefit to the program and to his legacy in grinding out a few more seasons? He has nothing left to prove. He is one of the greatest coaches in the college game without ever hoisting a national championship trophy.
Everything ends. Attachment motivated by fear is the path to suffering. If it's time, it's time.
And I think it's time.
dang. i wish i could give you a turkey leg for every piece of gold in that comment. i'd give you... well... a lot of turkey legs.
Good argument, and good questions.
Obviously, none of us on here have the answers, like you we are just voicing our opinions. I tend more to disagree with your opinion that it is time. While I understand that we will not have Beamer forever, I'm not ready to push him out the door yet either. I don't fear the future, there will be a time when he will retire, and we will move on and we will still be Virginia Tech. Everyone that is arguing for him to leave is pointing to his age and to the belief that he has lost his touch using the last 3 years as evidence.
As for his age, I refer you to Bowden and JoePa, who were much older than Beamer when they left. Even Saban is not far from Beamer's age (63). Are they calling for him to retire?
Ok, the last 3 years have been down, lower than any one of us would like. But it's not like we didn't win any games this year. We are still sitting at .500 and going to a bowl. Small consolation for sure, but it could be worse. Two years ago Frank overhauled his Offensive staff, did we expect a glorious rise to the top overnight? Probably. In this age of instant gratification we saw this change and thought that Logan was going to lead us to the National Championship (Side note: What would this team have been like this year with 5th year Logan leading it? Damn).
Then coming into this year we had more realistic expectations, most expected us to win 8 or 9 games at best, and we probably should have, but we all understood that we were thin and injuries could cause major problems. And guess what? They did.
I think that given all that has happened the last few years Beamer has done a heck of a job coaching. Everyone keeps talking about how the team never gave up this year, where do you think that comes from?
We will be better next year (barring another string of injuries of course), and I am still in the house of letting Beamer decide when to leave. He will know when it's time.
Edit: I also wanted to talk about the "next coach". As I said earlier we are in an era of instant gratification, regardless of if it matches reality or not. How many down years of rebuilding do we give a new coach once Beamer is gone before we start calling for his job?
I think what we're seeing in basketball right now helps with this rationality. People are willing to put up with a rebuild as long as progress is shown. Season ticket orders this year in basketball are way up despite the fact that even the coach is admitting the team is going to struggle to win games. People just want to see us get better.
If we make a coaching change, and it takes a few years for it to really start clicking, that's ok as long as there is something to latch onto and give hope. Whether that's an uptick in recruiting, or just some different wrinkles on offense that burn the opponent from game to game. People will put up with it as long as there is reason to hope.
The problem we have right now is that the overwhelming viewpoint of the team right now is that we're still waiting to see something to give us hope.
You articulate a great argument for why Frank shouldn't be fired, and I agree. He should not be fired. But I think now is the time for him to step down.
I think right now we have a particular opportunity which we might not see again at VT. The program has backslid but not bottomed out. We have not posted a losing record in 22 years (pending the result of the Military Bowl, which is a HUGE POINT no one is discussing.) Our bad is considerably better than a lot of programs' bad. But we are still rebuilding.
The team is stocked with young talent at all skill positions and reason for optimism on the OL. The buzz of a strong hire at head coach could generate the spark of interest required to boost recruiting. This is an opportunity for the next head coach at VT to hit the ground running. And taking over right now would relieve some small measure of the monumental pressure that will come with following in the footsteps of a living legend.
Assuming we are not going to improve to the point of national championship contention in the next couple of years (if you'll allow me that assumption) I think it's entirely possible that we rebound into restructuring. We get better just in time for Frank to retire and hit the reset button on the program. Make a move now, and we have the potential to roll restructuring into the rebuilding we're already doing.
Yes, there's the risk of failure. There will be the risk of failure five years from now. But if you want to talk about minimizing risk and providing as smooth a transition as possible, we have an outstanding opportunity right now. With the young talent on the roster, a good hire could reap substantial reward.
This x1000.
I think the biggest risk we run is another 2 years of average to downright poor (i.e. Wake Forest game) at best performance coupled with a few more essential recruiting misses,and then you are talking about a new coach taking over with a bare cupboard, an exasperated fanbase, dwindling financial contributions, etc.
That will kill you not only from the sense of the fans/donations/excitement for the program, but could also cripple you in terms of finding the next coach. Then this rebuild become a 5-7 year long deal rather than maybe 1-2 lean years.
Fantastic. Really well put. You brought up some good points I hadn't thought of.
You're right, Beamer will be gone in 5 years, one way or the other. From what we've seen of Babcock thus far, I'm sure he's already putting together a short-list and putting out feelers. In Whit we trust.
Very well said!
I think we have somewhat spoiled as a fan base, as we have supposedly been rebuilding for years. We got a bunch of ten win seasons during those rebuilding years.
Then when we actually hit rebuilding and see the negative results, we go nuts.
There is a lot of potential with last years and this years class. Not sure Sweat makes or breaks the future teams. But not all is lost because we didn't land him.
We had an dinosaur shit pile of injuries this year (which still continues), and still lost most of our games by one score. The staff are working their nuts off, I think this team needs more development time.
I'm on the ride till 2016, Beamer gets the game he always asked for, and goes out as he wants.
In general I didn't find much in your response that dealt with my argument. In not basing my logic on the results of this year or an emotional response to this down trend we're facing, but rather to a sense that the timing is right and I don't see a reason for Beamer to "need" to keep coaching to try to prove anything. But I will say, I hadn't really thought about Beamer holding on to coach at the Battle at Bristol.
As Jules Winfield said, it's an interesting point.
I'm not on board the fire Beamer train but I'm not opposed to an exit strategy. But I have to ask the question that I find hurts a medium portion of the fire crowd. How many years of a new coach getting his "blue print" on the program does he get before he is fired?
I think the fan base would be willing to give him at least as long as Frank got to start putting his mark on things.
The same "fans" who wanted the OC gone after one year?
You get 2 free years on the win / loss columns, the first year sets the bar.
2 years showing signs of improvement your on another year
3rd year over .500 and you've signed a top 25 recruiting class
4th year still playing Jan 1st
Years 5 - 8 being considered for a new job at a different school
Years 6-7 New Coach Start over
Long CEO Tenure Can Hurt Performance -
An optimal tenure length: 4.8 years. because they have more invested in the firm, they favor avoiding losses over pursuing gains. Their attachment to the status quo makes them less responsive to vacillating consumer preferences.
Harvard Business Review - cool read, pretty quick
https://hbr.org/2013/03/long-ceo-tenure-can-hurt-performance/
Some studies also say into years 5-7 can be positive for some. But after 6 - 8 years the decline becomes very apparent in risk taking
As I mentioned in the other topic, we will need a period of development. That means we get the best possible 3-star guys left, get them gentrified and they walk out of here as 4-5 star guys. Secondly, Virginia as a state is only getting better in terms of talent and that is the reason we are competing with the likes of Alabama and FSU. Hand and Sweat both talked about how much they respect Bud Foster and I think these guys would play for Bud any day but when FSU/Alabama comes knocking it's going to be a tough decision on that prospect and we have to respect that. We also must understand that the coaching staff tried really hard to get some of these guys over the last 2 cycles, it's not like they didn't try.
Defensively I'm not too worried because Bud can make things happen and we did pick up some solid guys this season and last season and don't forget some guys just don't work out. I also look at the current cycle of recruits and some of these guys listed as OLB can also play defensive end (Tremaine Edmunds). We also have some guys in-house right now that are in the development stages so lets believe in the defensive coaches to get them in the right place.
On the offensive side of things, the only issue that I have in terms of recruiting is Loeffler not being able to get a top notch QB. To me it looks like Ford and Durkin are Projects, no 2015 committ and our lone 2016 committ Logan Byrd didnt have a great season. On the other hand, I read a lot about Loeffler last night and he is a high respected mind in college football, lots of teams wanted him when he went to Auburn. Looking over the last 2 seasons, we finally did bring in some O-linemen and yes they definitely need to be gentrified so it will take a little time. But on the other hand, having Moorehead, Shane and now Searels will help us to get more skilled guys.
BTWwith the attrition of the last 3 years, we still have a lot of spots left on the roster to offer more scholarships. I know some of the walk-ons will get scholarships but we should still be in position to offer more scholarships over the next 2 seasons.
Lastly, Im looking forward to seeing Mook Reynolds in Maroon, Guy is a beast and has Boundry corner written all over him.
The longer we accept this mediocrity, the longer it will take to recover from this.
I reject the premise of your statement and that is that anyone is accepting mediocrity.
Some people feel that keeping Beamer around = accepting mediocrity.
Some of the old guard/old money is very much behind Beamer, always has been and seems more willing to ride out some of the lean times than others. People that remember the pre-Beamer era will tell you about how much worse it was in the 80s etc.
So, no, fans aren't saying "hey 6-6 is fine with me" but they may be less willing to advocate for change.
Alum07, certainly respect your opinion and actually agree with you on a lot of it. One comment you made really struck a cord in me and I am asking this to you and to the entire TKP community because it is an important premise to establish when we talk about not being able to land in state elite talent.
Is this true? If so, does anyone have any examples or proof that this is the case? How do we know we're missing out on Sweat and Nandi because our relationships at Oscar Smith and Ocean Lakes have eroded and not because these recruits simply, in this case, want to go to the defending national champs and not a 6-6 team in the same conference? If this were the case, wouldn't we be missing on all talent from these schools/Chesapeake, even the 3 and 4 star guys?
In other words, are we missing recruits because we are under performing strictly in the act of recruiting itself (for whatever reason, relationships eroding, poor salesmanship, whatever) or are we missing recruits because we're under performing on the field and that unfortunately carries over to recruiting and makes the whole thing a vicious circle?
The Oscar Smith AD personally picked Jimbo Fisher up from the airport and drove him to Josh Sweat's house last night for a visit.
Take from that what you will.
It's possible Josh had already made his decision last night before Jimbo's pitch and had told his AD. In that case, it was just a nice courtesy.
Still, this doesn't get to the root of the problem which is figuring out why we're missing on these recruits. I think it's a bit of a leep to say it's because we don't have relationships without offering up any proof. If anything, one could argue the fact that we're a finalist for the 5 star player against the defending national champs is proof that we DO have relationships with these schools--just simply not strong enough to always win out when the odds are otherwise stacked against us.
According to his own words today, he was still unsure, and made his decision last night. He just so happened to declare to the school of a coach who his own Athletic Director ushered him to his house minutes before.
we're basically a friend zone for 5* recruits.. they like us, we like them but at the end of the day they're not going home with us.
Ouch, that's...frighteningly accurate.
Oh hey, another one of these.
Oh hey, we missed another top flight recruit
Let's not carried away. I think the talent in the state is getting better so more and more top schools are coming in to compete with tech. It's no longer UVA vs. VT just look at where all the top talent has landed this year alone. We're not as deep as a state like Florida in terms of talents but the 4-stars are getting noticed nationally and getting noticed early, just looking at the state rankings, I see a good number of guys going to competitive programs:
#1Josh SweatDE6'5"236Florida St.
#2Chad SmithLB6'3"214Clemson
#3Austin ClarkOL6'5"297Virginia Tech
#4Garrett TaylorDB6'1"188Penn St.
#5Clelin FerrellDE6'5"220Clemson
#6Ricky DeBerryLB6'2"231list
#7Jahvoni SimmonsLB6'0"230Virginia
#8Matthew Burrell Jr.OL6'4"300Ohio St.
#9Jaason LewisRB6'4"246Arizona St.
#10Tim SettleDT6'2"325list
#11Darvin Taylor IIDT6'2"311Florida St.
#12Tremaine EdmundsLB6'3"215Virginia Tech
#13Darrell TaylorDE6'4"220Tennessee
#14Jahque AlleyneDB6'1"180Virginia Tech
#15Deshawn McCleaseRB5'10"178Virginia Tech
#16Felton DavisWR6'4"172Michigan St.
#17Trevon HillDE6'4"220Virginia Tech
#18AJ TurnerRB5'10"180South Carolina
#19Juan ThornhillDB6'1"175Virginia
#20Brandon PolkWR5'9"150Penn St.
#21Jamez BrickhouseDB5'10"165Old Dominion
#22Aaron CrawfordDT6'0"303N. Carolina
#23David EldridgeWR6'0"165Virginia
#24T.J. GriffinDB5'10"165Wisconsin
#25Gary JenningsATH6'2"195list
#26Blake CamperOL6'6"281Rutgers
#27Aramis AlexanderWR6'2"222Ohio St.
#28Chance HallOL6'4"290Tennessee
#29Tanner KarafaLB6'3"230Boston Coll.
#30Justin SkuleOL6'6"305Vanderbilt
#31Gus LittleLB6'3"220Maryland
#32Harry LewisDT6'0"260Virginia Tech
#33Richard BurneyTE6'4"230Virginia
#34Quincy WattsWR5'10"175list
#35Sterling HammondATH6'0"190list
#36Mike MajetteWR5'10"192list
#37Caleb AshworthDE6'3"235Cincinnati
#38Taylor BooseRB5'11"210Cincinnati
#39Nhyre QuinerlyDB5'10"170East Carolina
#40Brehon BrittRB5'10"175list
#41Xavier Nickens-YzerATH6'0"195list
#42James GibsonDB6'2"195Army
#43Coleman FoxATH5'11"186Virginia Tech
#44Phillip HaynesDE6'7"260Wake Forest
#45Isaiah DavisLB6'1"215Maryland
The commonwealth has always had a lot of hands in the cookie jar. This is not a new development at all. What is new is that we suddenly can't close the deal with the top players in the state anymore.
I agree to a certain extent but digging deeper over the last 5 years, its 2011 and 2013 where we only landed two of the state's 4-star recruits. Now, in other years, we're pretty much getting 5 "4-star" guys every year plus some out of towners, so what's wrong with that? ATTRITION..including injuries. Compare those who signed LOIs since 2010 and who actually played amongst these 4-star signees, you won't find those guys and others have taken time like the two JCs (Caleb and Coleman). Its one thing to recruit and get an LOI from a guy but they need to pan out (Nick Dew - Left), have the required grades(Drew Harriss), not get in trouble, etc...in fact if you go through the LOI over the last 7 years...you could do a where are they now segment and find these guys at an FCS school or not playing at all. Remember Tariq Edwards' twin brother, the guy had a baby and decided to stay home and take care of his family. So we can't necessarily say we get a highly talented guy and expect that they contribute to a lot of stats or even pan out. There are life issues surrounding players that we cannot account for, then there are injuries (Brent Benedict and Schuman) that literally decimate an O-Line, you just can't plan for this stuff, life happens. While I wish we could get a top tier recruit here, i don't think the coaches are doing a bad job in recruiting. Like I said before, i'm really disappointed that tech hasn't been able to get a 4-5 star QB
we did get a 4* qb 3 of them but none of them were game ready to come in and play right away. Crazy to think but what if we started 1 of those freshmen would we be any worse?
BUcky
This point needs further verification and study.
What I see is that the state is now seeing its top players be ranked higher nationally, which brings in more of the top teams consistently. The proliferation of OSU, Bama and FSU in the Commonwealth has never been higher. Go back a decade and you would have one or two recruits a year being recruited by those guys. We were competing with UNC, Tennessee and PSU. Regional powers. Maybe we have more 5* and high 4* guys than ever before. Maybe we just see those national powers have 757/804 expertise they didn't have before. Maybe the in-state schools are weaker. Maybe it is all of them.
While standing in line for Taco Bell last night, I saw someone who I'm pretty sure was Wyatt Teller chowing down on a burrito. I stood there and thought to myself "We're gon be alright"
Relax y'all
I completely disagree with the idea that this thread (in its current state) is a knee-jerk reaction. If this were the first time this had happened and we were landing other top recruits, I'd say the contributor definitely needs to chill out. But it isn't and Whit needs to realize this going forward. It's time for a change at the head coaching position, and the time to do it is following the bowl game. How many more mediocre seasons are we going to have before we finally say enough is enough? Just because our guy is a "Tech guy" doesn't mean he's the one best suited to lead this team. Before any of you ask who I think should replace Frank, I'm sure Whit could come up with a few names that would spark some interest. But regardless, the play on the field has digressed, the recruiting has digressed, and regular season attendance obviously digressed. It's not only costing us players, it's costing us money. I just do not see how we could move forward with the current position our program is in, whether we had beaten UVa or not. Don't get me wrong, that was a heck of a game and I enjoyed every second of it. But seriously, if we want to be the team other nationally ranked squads once feared, it is time to start considering major changes. Had we landed a handful of the guys we've been talking about for the last few months we wouldn't be having this discussion, but this if anything should be a clear indication of where the program is headed without change.
If there is even the slightest chance we've missed out on these recruits the last two years out of a fear Beamer is going to leave soon, he's got to go. This program is not improving under him and the amount of talent we've missed out on the last two years is simply unacceptable. You can't get all the 4 and 5 stars but the fact that we've swung and missed on literally every one is just inexcusable.
He's not going to be here forever and we're getting worse and worse. This team doesn't have enough promise to be worried about recruits and current players jumping ship if Beamer goes. If there was ever a time to move on from the Beamer era, it is right now.
And how is this a knee-jerk reaction? We've been failing on the field for three years now and failing at recruiting even worse for 2 years in a row. If anything, the "knee-jerk reaction" here is everyone running to Beamer's support because he won his last game against UVA in a miserable season. If this weren't a coach who had been here for so long he would be out the door already.
13 out of 23 enrollees rated as a 4* in at least one of the the 247 ratings or 247 composite in 2014 isn't failing at recruiting. This year hasn't been phenomenaly successful like last year, but we do have three 4*s recruits and are in really good shape for another one
We don't have depth at any line position except DT or at QB either. Depth is way, way, way more important than individual rankings.
We've recruited 6 O Linemen over the past cycle and a half and could end up with more before the current cycle is finished as well as moving Teller and Smith to Offense to create more depth. Also keep in mind that part of the problem is having so many lineman lost for the season including Brent Benedict and Mark Shuman who had to retire from football at the beginning of the Season, losing Jonathan McGlocklin a few weeks ago, along with Braxton Pfaff who would have provided some depth. Colt Pettit is also out for the season though I'm pretty sure he was already redshirting.
At QB we brought in 3 QBs the past cycle (4 if we count Travon McMillan) and part of the reason our Depth at QB is so bad is that the guy we brought in to be the next big QB after LT3 is busy setting TE records. If Beamer hadn't shook up the staff a couple yaars ago, our QB depth probably goes something Like Leal, Hodges, McMillan (redshirting) right now with Motley having moved to Defense. In think the current situation is marginally better and the future situation is much improved.
I'll give you that DE depth isn't great, but it's also not like we have walkons in the two deep. Alford and Dooley were both 3* recruits coming out of high school.
2011: Only OL taken: Jake Goins. QB: None at all.
2012: Augie Conte, Jack Willenbrock, Adam Taraschke. 3 2* recruits, of which one will contribute. QB: One, kind of. We recruited Motley as a safety but promised him a shot at QB, as we do. I never said our coaches aren't classy.
2013: I think we did p. good here, with Pfaff, Osterloh, Chung, and JMac. Osterloh probably won't contribute, but JMac and Pfaff probably will. Chung might, way too early to say. Wyatt Teller was nice too, but Peter to pay Paul and all. Bucky was a relatively highly rated QB, but his throwing motion was really, really bad. Like no chance of contributing in any way until it was completely rebuilt bad. He's amazing at TE, and is an incredible athlete, but would not be contributing at QB at this point for sure. Carlis Parker played QB in high school, but wasn't really expected to in college. We whiffed on our top targets at QB this year, one of whom is starting for LSU.
2014: New OL coach demanded more players due to dearth of numbers on roster. We signed 3 and placed a 4th in prep. None were highly ranked, one will probably be a pretty significant contributor at center. We recruited three quarterbacks, though one was another "we'll give you a shot" situation where the staff rightly figured he'd be better at RB. The other two have potential, though Ford's got a really weak arm still, and Durk has apparently leveled off, development wise.
2015: Another new OL coach. Asking for even more OL than the previous guy due to the talent and depth in the program. We're scrambling to try to find a QB in this class at the end of the year when we didn't try to at the beginning. Why? The staff thought we had enough talent in the wings, and has since realized we don't. Really hoping we flip Dwayne Lawson here, wouldn't surprise me to see him start as a Freshman for us, while Kaaya's entrenched for the foreseeable future at the U.
Benedict and Shuman were not going to be significant contributors. Neither was ever really healthy, and Shuman was first-team on the depth chart to try to motivate a slumping JMac. Sucks about the depth, but they certainly weren't quality depth at that point in either of their careers, mostly health-wise.
And at DE we have two walk-ons in the three deep. Meaning one singular injury puts walk-ons in the two deep. Alford and Dooley were low 3* recruits coming out of high school, borderline 2* guys. Neither of them had a single other major offer.
We need to change something. We are currently not recruiting at a level to be relevant on the national stage. Recruiting is unfortunately becoming a major point of emphasis, and fans really should've known the importance of it a long time ago. Back in the 90s, as one of the unknown football programs, we relied on finding hidden talent in talent-rich VA to build the program. Now, in the age of information, all of that talent is being found, and that coupled with so much money and focus being put on recruiting and talent evaluation (of middle-schoolers even), there really aren't many hidden gems anymore. I remember the discussion last year after we lost Hand. Posters on this site were arguing that we don't need 5 star talent because we are good enough on defense already. Good enough is not going to win National Championships. Just look at the statistics, just look at Ole Miss recently. They managed to land the number 1 high school player in the country, and followed that up with a bunch of 5 star guys. We can't rely on the outdated method of finding hidden talent to carry the program anymore.
We settled for mediocrity when we failed to consistently reel in recruits after the boon created by Michael Vick, and let the underperforming offensive staff stay for the better part of a decade.
That was our best chance at becoming a blue blood program. I think our only chance now is if we either get a billionaire donor to make up for our income discrepancies with other schools, or make a home run OC or HC hire. If Bud becomes head coach and we hire a great OC, we could be a top program and get more 5* recruits to sign here. It could backfire, but I guarantee you if we don't start getting these recruits, then we are destined for a lot more 6-6 seasons of mediocrity while we start to slowly lose our financial base.
I share the exact same sentiments Alum07 and I want him to go out on his own and on a high note. However, keeping him until 2016 is just prolonging the decision to begin a new era. We can either have a total overhaul now and probably have a few rocky years and then rise back up top (or hopefully higher), or we can go at best 7-5 and maybe 8-4 with the current system and then resort to the scenario under option A. Either way we will be changing our direction, it's just a matter of when and how long we prolong it.
To me as of right now I'm indifferent to whether Beamer stays or goes... I think it would be best if CFB stayed one more year and we keep an eye on Chad Morris at SMU. If he does well there then I think we should bring him in with his offensive staff+Moorehead and keep our defensive staff
But I don't know. This is a very fluid and sensitive time in Blacksburg and Whit has some decisions to make
the Chad Morris ship has sailed sadly.. no way he goes there for 1 year and then leaves, SMU isn't that dumb
I don't think it's a question of if they'd want to keep him, it's a question of him only being paid 2 million a year right now, and if he'd want to be paid significantly more
Chad Morris is taking a temp job at SMU to get on the job training as Head Coach before he bolts as soon as he can to a more prestigious opportunity.
Morris knows that SMU has the reputation for weak football right now, and they just concluded an 0-11 season. All Morris has to do is get them to 4-8, then 6-6, then 8-4 one time and he will be the top candidate for some Power 5 conference job. With as much talent as is in Texas, he can loop in the recruits to do that fairly quickly.
Chad Morris understand donors will pay to see exciting high powered offensive football. he understands recruits want to play for an exciting team, not one mired in defensive struggles to reach double digits. He understands what gets a team on TV. That is why he is in demand.
He's also very good at it, which helps a bit. I'm sure Loeffler didn't think 0 points against Wake Forest did him any favors, but it happened
They beat UConn. 1-11
I grew up in Tidewater VA. (Hampton Newport News & Va Beach).
These 5 star athletes were losing out on from the 757 are for the most part set on going to the NFL.
Along the way to the NFL they want to party and /or get paid to play college ball .
VA Tech will never win these kids in recruiting duels with FSU or most schools from the SEC or Big 12.
Beamer has to much class to drag this university down in pursueing these kids the way they want to be pursued.
Beamer and his staff recruit kids with integrity & heart. Maybe their seen as 1 & 2 star talent level. But Beamer's staff takes those kids n coaches them into 3 & 4 star talents. Most universities would use our players as special teams bodies. I don't want a shady or crooked athletic dept at VA Tech. This is a REALLY young team this year and yes most our losses were by one TD score. Aside from the Miami and Wake Forest games this team busted ass on the field. Wake Forest game was a real low point for the offense but they didn't get it done.
I still want Beamer Ball. And when Beamer retires by his own choice I'd want Foster Ball.
We can t worry about who won't come here to play or why they won't come here to play.
They'll never give an honest answer while they still have eligibility. Other Schools are always going to buy players and coaches to get those championships. I don't want a tainted championship.
Unless you have actual evidence, insinuating that these kids are getting paid is unfair and makes us sound like a bitter bridesmaid.
Not enough legs for this post. Only thing I'm not sure about is Foster as HC, I think I'd be ok with it, but he's unproven as a HC. I do like that we wouldn't have to worry about the integrity of the program with Foster, or anyone on the current staff for that matter. I currently have no favorites to replace Frank, I don't get paid enough for that. Oh, this has all been fun, but I'm fine for at least tonight. I'll read any replies I'm the morning.
I will post this in here, as I think it brings an interesting perspective that I don't think that anyone else in here has brought up. Per Chris Coleman at TechSideLine
http://chat.virginiatech.sportswar.com/message_board/vtfootball/2014/December/10/5829424.php
I find that to be a very interesting point, and a pretty valid one. Our recruiters right now are doing an excellent job at getting us in the door and at the edge of bringing in very, very good recruiting classes. Where we are absolutely failing is at closing the deal, and nowadays it is the job of the head coach to close it. A guy like Jimbo Fisher or Nick Saban are great at closing the deal. Frank? Not so much.
Makes me wonder... If we had this same recruiting staff, and a guy like Bud Foster coming in as our head honcho closer, if we would have the same recruiting issues we are seeing now.
Can't really prevent last minute surgery plus recovery, but I'm completely with you on this. However I don't ever see Bud becoming our HC, but I definitely would have nothing against the decision.
I would like to know more about "closing." I have had a few components of my career that were in a pseudo-sales role, and my experience was similar to VT. Our team often prepared sufficiently to get us to the final discussion but we often lost a lot. I never felt as much that it was lacking a "closer" on our team but a representation of the the actual product and services being sold.
I've also spent plenty on time now on the side of the table being sold. And it never is the "sales" component. Never. We are professionals, we are looking for a partner to provide services/products to us that meet our needs. I think that's what today's recruits are. We often short-sell the sophistication of these kids and their own teams.
If I'm Josh Sweat, I'm choosing FSU 10 out of 10. The only thing VT offered was proximity. That's it. And with away games in the ACC, that can be justified out somewhat. They have everything else. That's not Frank being a closer. That's VT being inferior to FSU in every controllable way.
Funny you mention that as I was thinking the same thing. I posted this article back in the summer but I think it does a good job of highlighting exactly what you are talking about. It's a bit long but a very interesting read:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11121315/florida-state-se...
It's a pretty innovative way to train and coach and the results are pretty evident.
However, to Alum's point, if you have an inferior product you have to have a damn good closer. Whether it's that they can sell the crap out of what they have or they can build a great relationship that you just can't say no to, they have to have a very special skill set.
I disagree with this. Defensive end depth is worrisome, even more so if Dadi decided to go to the NFL. But, it isn't as dire as you have made out:
1) 2010- Friday, Drager, Graves, and A. Hopkins, with Gayle, Collins, and Derrick Hopkins occasionally getting repetitions. That was as terrible a front starting four as I can remember at VT, with nothing but inexperienced guys who were not highly touted behind them.
2) 2015 group has six four star rated recruits in Marshall, Ekanem, Walker, Mihota, Hill, and Fullwood. I don't think there is a time since the rating system became popular through Rivals where you could say the Hokies had 6 four star rated guys on defensive line. VT was hurt by the last round of higher rated recruits (McCray busting, Acree's injuries, Teller being moved to OL) not making it on DL.
3) There are contingencies that are possible. Remember, VT returns Maddy, Marshall, Baron, Williams, and Walker next season inside, with Sobczak, Lewis, and Whitehead all available as true DT's. Settle would really make the DT position strong. With all those bodies, Fullwood and Mihota could move back outside (and I am still ticked at Wiles for not just saying that they needed help inside and that is why Mihota moved there instead of just declaring that he couldn't play DE.)
I hate... absolutely hate that they missed on Jalen Dalton. Sweat may have had more upside, and garnered more attention as an in-state kid, but Dalton was the guy I looked at as a difference maker sooner rather than later. But, they will be ok on DL. Sweat choosing FSU hurts because of the perception of VT as a "stuck in the mud" program. And I don't know where I am on how to fix that yet.
I love when French comments on random topics like this. It always feels like this to me.
Some good points, but Fullwood is a 3* that the staff doesn't want at end, and pray that Hill makes it.
How many people felt like we should have beaten Georgia Tech earlier this year? Did you walk away from that game feeling like Georgia Tech was the vastly superior team? Because I sure as hell didn't, and I think almost everyone would agree that game was in our grasp and we let it slip away.
That Georgia Tech team beat Georgia. That team played in the ACC Championship game and, without their top WR, gave Florida State everything they could handle and nearly came away with the win. Did anyone watch that game and come away thinking GT didn't belong on the same field as FSU? Because from my perspective, they didn't seem so far apart.
I'm not trying to make excuses because I'm not satisfied with the results on the field this season. We lost a lot of games this year and it sucked. And yes, many of our games were painstakingly difficult to watch. However, this team beat Ohio State at the shoe and should have beaten Georgia Tech. We had a realistic shot at winning every single game we played with the exception of Miami. We do need to show improvement because this team wasn't good enough and the consistency wasn't close to being there this year, but I don't think this team is as far from success as it seems either.
I will bite. I said it then, and will say it now. On that day, VT was the far superior team. The QB play, and two nervous busts in the secondary killed them. Credit to GT for sticking with it, but if Loeffler keeps feeding Williams on the drive before GT tied it, VT wins the game.
I completely agree. I don't think the program should stay the course because of a select few reasons (i.e. the 10-win season streak, a big win over a top 5 team, continuing to beat UVA, extending the bowl streak, etc.) if "big picture" improvements aren't seen in the form of results on the field. I personally believe there is plenty of deserved criticism on that front. It's not debatable that FSU has a far superior record over the course of the last two seasons. That's what matters the most at the end of the day and that's easy for them to sell. That being said, I think in the sense of an individual game, the idea that FSU is miles ahead of VT is being blown out of proportion. We have guys that belong on the same field.
Love this comment and think it is very true. However do we have the proper people in place that can consistently get the best out of the players?
Adjustments/lack of adjustments... it'll get after ya
I'm not sure we know the answer for certain yet. This year was especially tough with injuries... which leads to what some others have or will point out- the biggest difference is probably not the quality of the starters, but the 2nd and 3rd string players. Recruiting does impact this as Florida State develops solid depth as a result of getting more highly rated recruits, who are more likely to be productive than lower rated ones. A lack of depth can and does limit our ability to play more consistently over the course of a season. The exact cause and the appropriate solution for that issue is probably multifaceted though.
Getting ready to board the next flight soon, so had to bail on reading all the comments.
I appreciate Alum's POV, and think it's a valid question.
I'm just not seeing any particular drop-off in recruiting. We've got some good O-linemen coming in, which IMO is our biggest deficiency.
We've got a solid top-25 recruiting class shaping up, with the potential to be top 20 still, which is right in our normal range.
We've suffered through a horrendous season that was in no small way hamstrung by key injuries & young players.
But in the end, next year is the one I'm interested in seeing before I agitate for any more change.
Nothing breeds success like success, and I still think the odds are decent that we see a potent Loeffler Offense take the field at the same time as an average Bud Foster Defense. If that happens, all this talk about missing 5* talent will disappear.
Ok, it won't ever go away, but let's face it: Until we legitimately compete for a nat't title, or move to the SEC, we will always be on the outside looking in at these races.
Love the comment above. For me, it isn't a coaching change that's need, it's an offensive identity. How would you describe this offense? Now, compare it to the defense - everyone knows what the defense is, it has an image you can sell to recruits, a history you can see year-in and year-out. Honestly, when someone thinks of the VT defense, I'd bet they can almost feel Bud Foster's silent rage in that moment.
The offense however ... what image are you painting to recruits? The players look scared of making a mistake, the play calling seems the same. To me, go get the best friggin' o-line you can, and commit to being something. If that's a ground and pound, I'm with ya. If that's a fun and gun, I'm with ya. Just go get a personality, and some confidence.
I haven't had time to read through everything in the thread so far and apologize if I'm repeating a point that someone else has made, but I wanted to go ahead and chime in on something from the OP.
I don't think that the missed recruits on the D-Line are as dire as you seem to think. Here's what our D-Line will look like next year grouped by projected 1st String, 2nd String, and Reserves and with incoming Freshman listed after returning players:
2015 VT Defensive Line with Class and 247 Composite/247 Ranking
Returning DEs
Dadi Nicolas r-SR 3/3*
Ken Ekanem r-JR 4/4*
Dewayne Alford r-JR 3/3*
Seth Dooley r-SO 3/3*
Melvin Keihn SO 3/3* (could move back to LB)
Jeremy Haynes r-jr
Harry Boston r-FR
Laird Gardner r-SR
Returning DTs:
Luther Maddy r-SR 3/2*
Corey Marshall r-SR 4/4*
Nigel Williams r-JR 3/3*
Woody Baron JR 3/3*
Ricky Walker SO 3/4*
Vinny Mihota r-FR 3/4*
Steve Sobczak r-FR 3/3*
Incoming Freshman D-Linemen
Trevon Hill 3/4*
Darius Fullwood 3/3*
Harry Lewis 3/3*
Eric Whitehead 3/3*
I have two main points in posting this.
First, we have our entire D-Line returning next year and will have 6 or 7 DEs (assuming Fullwood plays at DE as listed on 247 and depending on if Keihn moves back to LB or stays at DE) and 8 DTs who were ranked at least 3*s coming out of high school (9 if we count Maddy who was a border line 2/3* and is one of our best linemen), Of these players, more than half of them, 3 or 4 DEs and 5 DTs, should still have eligibility left following the 2016 season.
Second add in that we're in pretty good shape to land 4* Joshua Nijman out of Fork Union who could end up playing DT and that our coaches have consistently been able to find Diamonds in the Rough late in the recruiting process (See Nicolas, Dadi; Maddy, Luther; Cline, Kalvin; and Rogers, Sam), so we could still get more D Linemen in this class, possibly similar to Andrew Ford's commitment last year which came shortly after David Cornwell and Jacob Park commited to other schools. Bud Foster and the other coaches have already proven that they can put an elite defense on the field regardless of how highly rated the players are out of high school. Our current 2 deep has only Two players who were consensus 4*s and another Borderline 4*, the rest is taken up by Five 3*s and another player who was a border line 3*. The players that are currently enrolled or signed that will have eligibility left after 2016 include Three players that were borderline 4*s and Six players who were 3*s, so the out of high school talent level of the players that we already have on the roster or signed won't be that different from what we currently have. And once again, all of this is before we have even finished the 2015 recruiting cycle with two more recruiting classes in 2016 and 2017 that will most likely provide even more depth.
Um, what?
Melvin Keihn SO 3/3* (could move back to LB)
Jeremy Haynes r-jr
Harry Boston r-FR
Laird Gardner r-SR
Seriously? Keihn is small for a linebacker. The other guys aren't scholarship players. The two back-ups, who actually are scholarship players, are not good. There isn't a scholarship DE behind them. Fullwood is already 250ish, as of his weigh-in when he visited VT last, and is playing DT. I really, really hope Trevon Hill makes it to campus, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. If Trevon doesn't make it, we haven't signed a DE for three straight classes, and it's about to show. If Dadi or Ek has to leave for more than part of a single game, we are beyond effed.
I think we're more than fine at DT. We are just terrifyingly thin at DE, and as of right now, this year's recruiting class does not contribute to that.
I listed Keihn as a DE because that's where the coaches have him slotted right now, so that's where I listed him and the walkons were listed because I was listing everyone on the roster at DE and DT. I agree that we're very thin at DE on paper but there are lots of things we can do to help with this. As French mentioned above players like Mihota and Fullwood can play end and I would add that Corey Marshal could also slide out and play end if the coaches needed him to. He's played it before and still played it in our 3 man front nickel package at the start of the year (not sure if they kept him there after Maddy's injury or moved him inside)
I'm curious to see what happens there. I know Keihn is too small to try to play any significant amount of time at DE right now, and would really, really like for him to be able to put on some weight and play backer or mike. Sliding Corey Marshall outside takes this year's #1 DT out of the inside, though our depth at DT is definitely better. I'm hopeful with Mihota, but he was moved to DT because he lost speed to his injury supposedly. He's not considered fast enough to play DE in our scheme, so it'd really be compromising in a way where nobody wins.
Fullwood is already bigger than most of our DEs, and also doesn't really have much speed, he's a DT all the way. Love to be proven wrong here, but that's what the coaches and history have said.
My question...say we come out the gate next year just demolishing teams and we have a season reminiscent of the 99 season. Would 5* players in the 2016 recruiting class be interested in coming here knowing that a change at the top would most likely happen by their senior year?
The high-end talent at the DL that VA's produced the last 3-4 years isn't really there in the '16 class. One obscenely good DB at OLHS, but he's straight-up without a doubt not coming to VT.
here's an unpopular opinion:
I'd rather be the school that doesn't throw their program-making coach under the bus and suffer through some down seasons, letting him retire when he darn well pleases, than join the likes of Michigan/Tennessee/etc who cycle through coaches every couple years driven by the fan base's demand for MOAR WINS NOW!!!
I've never known the hokies to be this national title contender that everyone here seems to expect us to be. My freshman year was the last time we lost to LOLUVa. That season did wonders for setting my expectations. You know my favorite season? 2004 (you know, TEN YEARS AGO). We dropped one to USC (which we should have won), started to recover only to drop another to NCSU (sat in the south endzone and had a great view of Pace's shanked FG), then ran the table to earn a sugar bowl invite where we promptly lost to Auburn (again, thank you Brandon Pace). This is Virginia Tech football at its finest (sure, you can point to the title game, but all the same characteristics are there). Do I want better? Sure, but our reputation is that of a team that is loyal, consistent, moral, and will always be in the conversation (with a healthy dose of doubt). I don't want to fall into the trap that so many schools do where they think a head coaching change will magically turn everything around no matter the consequences of rushing to that change. For every Jimbo Fisher, there are 10 (20?) Lane Kiffins (pick any of his HC jobs) where the new coach actually makes things worse.
I'd love to see Frank step down. But I want to see it happen on his terms entirely. In the meantime, I'll still pick us to win every game, cheer us on, and mope for a week after every loss.
Well said!
Are you sure that wasn't Carter Warley?I'm wrong. It was Pace. I swear I remember Warley missing a huge field goal early in a season and then making a clutch field goal later in the season to win a game for us. Always thought it was 2004. Hmm.
I appreciate what frank has done for our school and program but, IMO I think it may be time for him to consider stepping down. We have seen over the past 3-4 years our total wins and play on the field go down. IMO that all comes from recruiting misses dating back 5-8 years. In this age of college football you have to be out on the road recruiting and from what I hear coach Beamer just does not get out there and recruit like other head coaches. I may be wrong and if I am please show me valid proof. We are dangerously thin a DE and we have missed on several this year, granted we will never get every recruit we go after, we just can not close. So my question is do you rather have a coach continue on without being able to close on recruits and poor season play just because he's a hall of fame coach? Or does there come a point in time that you realize that he needs to step down before we get further down in a hole that the next coach will have to help dig us out of?