Scrolling through my Twitter feed this morning, I came across a troubling quote about Kevin Toliver's official visit to Virginia Tech:
Virginia Tech may have flipped the younger Tolivers commitment with a simple, Hello. Even Tolivers father admits that he honestly thought his son would end up at Virginia Tech.
Then came the official visit this past fall. Virginia Techs defensive backs coach never introduced himself or spoke to the recruits mother, Stephanie Toliver, until the third day of a three-day visit, the elder Toliver said.
During a Sunday meeting with defensive coordinator Bud Foster, Stephanie Toliver called out secondary coach Torrian Gray, who also was in the room.
Ive been here all weekend, and I havent met you, Stephanie told the coach, Toliver said. He apologized. You should have seen the look on Bud Fosters face. He nearly fell out.
On the drive back from Blacksburg, Stephanie Toliver told her son that she couldnt swallow being ignored for two days by the guy who would be coaching her sons position.
That is extremely concerning to me when it comes to recruiting. I usually do not get involved with how the coaches are recruiting (that's their job), but do you all think this is something to be concerned about?
SOURCE: http://theadvocate.com/sports/lsu/11492523-123/five-star-recruit-kevin-t...
Comments
Wow. Admittedly, it was a game weekend but that's brutal.
It indicates an unfortunate lack of attention on Torrian's part, but her attitude rubs me the wrong way...she seems pretty self-absorbed to use that as a decision-making factor.
Welcome to recruiting. These 5* guys and their familys are treated as royalty at all the schools they attend. It's easy to brush off any school that doesn't
It is NOT wrong for the mother of a 5* recruit to expect to meet his potential future coach right away.. If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!
It doesn't matter if the guy is a 3* or a 5* guy, a simple handshake and an introduction is not asking for the world. I know this is not the same thing as a job interview, but if the person you were interviewing with was not engaged in the interview and you had other similar offers, wouldn't it tip the scale for you?
Not sure what was going on and it probably was a busy time, but gotta make those personal connections count.
You're either trying to sell that you want her baby boy to spend college under your tutelage or you're not.
TG was not.
TG will be asked about this incident in any future job interview. A poor answer will mean he doesn't get the job.
Some wonder why this type of recruiting performance is allowed. Others wonder why the mother is such a b***.
The Virginia Tech fan base... 21 up votes. If TG had treated mama fuller this way... I doubt we get KF.
No way he gets asked about this in a future interview. Any college coach doing the hiring will already know what recruiting these kids is really like, and will never believe some story in a local newspaper. It's plainly obvious the article is a feel-good piece written for the LSU fanbase in the local newspaper. There is absolutely no way that VT, FSU, and Auburn all dropped the ball on this kid. He's just too damn good for the coaches to totally ignore.
I have to disagree with one point here. This does not seem to me that "It's plainly obvious the article is a feel-good piece written for the LSU fanbase in the local newspaper". Yes, it is written for LSU fans. Yes, the writer is probably an LSU beat writer. But the family gains literally nothing from saying any of this to anyone ever. I know some people like to talk just to talk, but if they're trying to badmouth VT for example, why include the quote from his father about expecting his son to go to VT? I don't get it.
It sucks horribly that my alma mater (Auburn) and my current school (VT) missed on this kid. He looks like a special talent. But I'm not about to go lambast some beat writer for writing a piece on a 5* recruit with tons of quotes from his family, even if it was LSU-skewed (which this is not IMO).
Including the quote about expecting to go to VT hurts even more. It effectively says: "I thought he was going there, but then they totally dropped the ball."
Yes, it doesn't paint VT or any other school in a fantastic light. Since it's an LSU column, I wouldn't expect it to.
That said, it honestly wasn't over the top. Say what you will about the family's motivations for saying whatever they did, but the article isn't inherently biased. If it's biased, it's because Toliver's family is biased against the other schools.
Agree. It's not like it's trash, it's just got a skewed viewpoint. Anything pro-LSU will probably seek to make us look bad when it comes to DBs because they think they are DBU.
Badass avatar, by the way.
Thanks. The avatar is what you get when you type "War Hokie" into Google.
I thought it was incredibly apt as an Auburn alum and VT student.
There are a couple of reasons why Bud doesn't get the big jobs he interviews for.
One is recruiting. It is a top item of every coach, every AD, every program that aspires to win conference championships.
Really could you point to one single AD or person in an athletic dept who has said this?
or possibly because he doesn't want another job?
Perhaps we were reading different things. It seemed to me that it was Torrian Gray that screwed up the recruiting. Bud was meeting with them and got upset when he realized that Torrian hadn't made contact.
If anything, (assuming this source is 100% correct and unbiased) it's a reason why Torrian is still a position coach, not a DC. I don't think it's unfair to expect a veteran position coach to introduce himself to a recruit's parents without being told.
You're going way out on a limb assuming that this account is accurate & complete.
Oh I agree, I was merely responding to the poster that suggested that these things are why Foster is still a DC.
As an auditor, I concur with needing completeness and accuracy of underlying data before making conclusions.
Dare I reference Mama Curry's attitude towards Steph and Seth's recruitments?
Just remember Michael Vick was the Heir to the Man himself Donovan McNabb at 'Cuse
Vick didn't choose Syracuse because his mom wanted him to stay in the state of Virginia
Michael Vick picked VT because of his Mom
The Tolliver's bitched about a couple other schools as well, right?
The fact that his father expected him to end up at VT kills me
Wasn't it his fathers LSU connection that had many assuming the Tigers were the pick?
If that quote is true, that is a real gut punch.
This piece is a mix of propaganda for LSU and entitlement from the recruit and his family.
Note that FSU didn't stop recruiting him... he stopped calling FSU because he couldn't reach a coach a couple times when he called. The fact that he gave up on FSU so easily showed that he was not actually interested in FSU. The kid and his family were open to being courted/begged to attend a school other than LSU but his legit interest laid only with LSU. There is zippy chance his father actually expected him to wind up at VT. His father played at LSU. He was committed to LSU. We may have been 2nd on his list but were a distant 2nd. Tolliver knew it. His Dad knew it. His mom knew it. And most importantly, Torrian Gray knew it and devoted his time to game activities and recruiting players who were giving us a legit look.
We wouldn't have got Lawson if our coaches actually acted like that. We had a shot at Tolliver, went for him, and lost.
I'm not convinced we had a shot at Tolliver at all, just seems like they like the attention and disliked the lack of it
So you think Gray just gave up on him as soon as he took a visit?
I think you are basing your argument on the account of parents that seem to have similar messages about all the schools their child didn't pick. While I am basing my argument on the established fact that Gray is well known to be one of the most humble and congenial coaches on staff, and that there is very little chance that every school except the one that Tolliver committed to somehow blatantly failed at their recruitment of this kid.
"The Tigers staff presented the family with a schedule of when to call coaches, the elder Toliver said. Recruits can place unlimited phone calls to coaches, but coaches cant do the same to recruits."
How in the hell is that allowed? Basically telling the kid these are the times I would call you if allowed so instead you call me and I'll be sitting by the phone!
Coaches aren't allowed to call recruits, because they would call constantly if they were allowed. Not just to talk about themselves and recruit the player, but to tie up the line(s) to prevent other schools from contacting the player and their families. Now imagine this going on while someone important is trying to contact the family in an emergency situation. Also, consider the way that cell phone minutes are/were billed, essentially having coaches causing kids or their families pay huge cell phone bills due to minute overages and fees on their plans just to take numerous calls from numerous coaches. This rule came into effect for a reason. It is why they wanted to extend it to text messages for a while there, because players/families were getting hammered on their cell phone bills. Now, with most people having unlimited text plans, that isn't as much of a problem.
Saying that recruits and family can call whenever they want gives the power to initiate contact and conversation to the recruit and his family. It also gives them control over their own phone bills and their time.
Giving a kid's family a schedule is just smart recruiting. Not doing so is leaving way too much up to chance. Why make the talent guess when your coaches will be available? It is not like the coach can call right back if they miss the call.
It is a case if clearly following letter of the law and breaking the spirt of the law.
How?
The "spirit of the law" is that recruits and their families should be in control of the player's recruitment. They should be free to explore opportunities with colleges without being harrassed by constant phone calls and additional expenses on their phone bills. Limiting phone calls from coaches keeps them in control.
Giving a recruit a schedule of the best times to contact coaches is just smart and I do not see how it is any type of ethical violation. It is just like a business owner advertising his hours of operation or a professor telling students when he/she is available for office hours. It isn't like they are making appointments, they are just telling them the best times to call to make sure they have a good chance of actually talking and not just wasting everyone's time. Like I said, if a recruit has to guess when to call a coach and guesses wrong, the coach cannot just call the recruit right back. It is basically phone tag, but one person is always "it".
The line I read was "when to call" as in this is when you call us. Not "these are the times we are in the office" so your telling me that setting aside a specific time for a specific recruit to call is not spirit of the law ba letter of the law?
I can see what you're saying, but I don't think it works that way.
If I'm a highly regarded, heavily recruited high school athlete, and some coaching staff that I'm not beholden to starts telling me "you *will* call me at this time because I've assigned that time to you," I scoff and call them if and when I damn well feel like it.
If I'm a highly regarded, heavily recruited high school athlete, and some coaching staff tells me "you can call me whenever you like, but just so you know, here's when I don't have other commitments that might prevent me from answering," I would appreciate that. It's up to me whether to call, and the coach has made a gesture for my convenience.
Surprising out of Gray.
Sounds like he met the recruit and Dad but not Mom. Did he even know she was there?
I have to wonder if he introduced himself to the room at the start and she was affronted that he didn't make a personal introduction.
Disappointing, to say the least.
Has a very similar feel to the reasons why DeShawn Hand said he dropped us last year.
Really? That's the first I've heard that about Hand.
Yeah, when he dropped us, he said the reason was that he just simply hadn't heard from our coaches in a while as other programs were contacting him weekly.
Be it on an OV or just during the year, the absolute last thing you want is your recruits feeling neglected. This is now 2 in 2 years who have said they got that feeling from us.
That wasn't his stated reason for dropping us. His stated reason, from everything I've read, was that he changed his mind from wanting to major in engineering to wanting to major in sports marketing. Now, he later changed that stance, citing Alabama's civil engineering program as a major reason why he committed there (yeah right), but that's what he said when he first dropped us.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130617/SPORTS0201/306170071
This is what I remember. But it all makes sense in the end. Alabama has a much more prestigious engineering school anyway..
Not to mention a few national titles and a playoff appearance
but yeah, I'm sure it was all academic
I work in Alabama as an engineer, and it is just accepted that VT is a better engineering school than Alabama, amongst engineers. You want engineering in Alabama you go to Auburn.
I believe he was being sarcastic there cheif
The comment was directed more toward Hands statement that Alabama had his major and that is why he went. Then according to the above he chooses Civil Engineering at Bama? It's cool though, I'm not stressing
I was mid typing up a forum topic when I noticed this was posted on the side.
After reading the entire original article, I can't help but not believe most of it. Instead it points me to the negative side of parents in recruiting. It's hard for me to believe most of the accusations against the other schools.
Plus this seems like the exact opposite of the story we here time and time again which is "Mom is on our side."
This whole story seems suspicious.
I agree, was just about to post the same thing. The whole story sounds like chest puffing and "look how great LSU recruited our perfect child." I'm sorry, but it's a two-way street. If a kid is interested in a school, wouldn't it cross his mind to, at some point, say "When can I meet coach Gray? When can I bring my parents to talk to him?" Sounds like they wanted to sit back and wait for everyone to kiss their butts. Maybe that's what it's going to take to get some blue-chippers, but honestly I'd rather have a guy like Mook Reynolds who loves VT and advocates for the Hokies every chance he gets. Of course, I'd love to have 5* guys who love VT and have that reciprocated, but still...
I can't even buy the other stories. Toliver is a top 10 recruit in the country and you're telling me that the other schools missed out because of a lack of communication? I doubt it. If Toliver told Auburn he wanted an OV, I guarantee they would make it happen, quickly.
The ONLY scenario in which I could see that being true is if Auburn sensed he was a complete LSU lock and would just use an OV to try and flip guys to LSU. I just can't buy that everyone else completely dropped the ball on Toliver. Negative recruiting propaganda at its finest.
Think about pretty girls you know. Guys are constantly bringing their A game. Now some girls resent that and resent their inner beauty and go a different route altogether. Bringing a C game to an A game just means that you'll be viewed as not giving a crap about whether you get the pretty girl or not. Good luck with that. You'll never get the pretty girl who loves herself. You'll end up with the psycho pretty girls who hate themselves. And you'll end up why it never works out with the pretty ones.
I get alot of us resent the pretty girls. But if we want to play for ACC championships in our lifetime, we're going to need the 4 and 5 star players to play for VT. And we have to get the ones who are well adjusted and hard working. Otherwise we should just play JMU, ODU, and UVA for the Virginia pride trophy. And let all the 5 stars go out of state the way they do now.
Interesting to see how people view college football. You want 5 stars treated as if they are 3 or 2 stars. Then you wonder why we randomly have difference makers on our football team. Because we don't recruit them very well.
Because fans allow FB to put up with this unacceptable recruiting performance.
In fairness to the coaches, we have more staff now. One of whom on almost every weekend should be making every visiting kid and parent feel wanted. And especially the 5 stars. They should be making sure that certain coaches get linked up with certain parents in a timely fashion.
TG and Bud Foster should have a shot at every 5 star that rolls in. I can't believe they both don't have it in them to do what you have to do to get a parent comfortable. I have to think they just didn't really want the kid. We probably had a full stable of kids we wanted and kids we felt met the system, work ethic, etc.
Bit of a shame as we could use a little more CB competition next year. Hoping our injury problems get worked out.
Your entire premise is based on the article being a truthful interpretation of what happened. VT, FSU, and Auburn all drop the ball in spectacular fashion on one of the best players in the country? Please. The parents are giving quotes to pump up LSU right before signing day. That's what I'm knocking. I'm against drama and putting on a front. Give me genuine players, who want to play for VT, if they're 3* or 5* or hard-working walk-ons. I certainly want top talent. But I also want people who believe in our culture. I think the story is fishy for a bunch of reasons, and it's the image that I don't care for. Throwing VT, Auburn, and FSU under the bus serves no purpose but to try to make LSU look better by negative recruiting. I don't care for it.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not sure I can swallow all of this:
I see what you did there
Username is ironically relevant
My issue is that this is coming from the mouth of the father. And in today's age of recruiting, we often see that parents are getting away from being support figures for their children. They see the money possibility, the media presence these kids hold now and through college until the pros and all they want is to get their kid to the best school for success on the field so they can make more money later. They are more managers and agents than they are sources of wisdom and advice. I'm not saying Toliver's parents are like that, but everything must be taken with a grain of salt. Unless said father is jreynolds06 in which case, just go ahead and put your money on it being true.
I dunno... I'm still not sold on his sources, I think he was just getting lucky.
Spot on. You win this thread.
One thing I will agree with (as it's been hammered time out of mind on here) the approach to recruiting needs to be improved top to bottom.
You say this as most recruiting services say VT will have its best class in years.
Seems like it is improving.
Oh I agree (and that's not how I meant it, btw). Of course only time will tell if this class truly pans out (I for one think it will). But incidents like these coupled with the failures to secure commitments from other recruits (which understandably you can't get them all) prove that there's always something we could do to improve.
I agree but it was the timing (this recruiting cycle) of your post to which I was commenting. I felt a "We need to get better, as we are getting better" vibe.
As a sidenote: My Wife always talks about how she never goes out with the girlfriends as she's putting on makeup to go out with her girlfriends.
Lesson I learned: How to properly set expectations.
Look, the fact that this is even a thread (whether or not said events actually happened) clearly shows that there may be some glaring issues regarding recruiting that need to be addressed. I'm not denying or saying that this isn't one of the best recruiting classes. But yes we need to continually improve while we're improving. Again, the fact that this is even a thread and that we've still missed out on a number of recruits in very recent years means there's plenty of room for improvement while we're improving.
What doesn't make sense is your wife's lipstick analogy.
While true, I would personally hesitate to hold up this example as exemplary, considering it also casts aspersions (in a way) on FSU and Auburn, both of whom currently have top 15 classes and seem to be pretty darn good at recruiting.
The reason it is a focused example (though not exemplary) is due to the content. I never said we gotta contort ourselves in a Kama sutra fashion and kiss their asses. But as someone else stated we do have to make those simple personable connections.
This makes it sound like the coaches aren't doing their job if every single recruit they pursue doesn't choose Virginia Tech. It's like me saying, "HokieMcGruber26, why can't you run faster than Usain Bolt? The fact that Usain Bolt's 100m world record time has stood since 2009 proves that you haven't been doing enough to break it and there's plenty of room for improvement."
No it doesn't. That's just your misinterpretation of it.
Look, the fact that there is even a post about it clearly shows that there may be some glaring issues regarding why you aren't faster than Usain Bolt.
That's taking what I said completely out of context. You want me to admit Usian Bolt is faster? Fine. He's faster.
Seriously...he's only fast because his name is Bolt. If you want to be faster than he is, then you need to change your name to Warpspeed.
#improveyourimproving
One-up is my middle name.
I mean, by my count, we've missed out on every recruit we didn't sign. Can't win them all my friend. Even a bird in the hand can still fly away.
Wait you are telling me that recruits chose other schools because A) they had other offers B) liked the (field, locker rooms, girls, stadium, weather et al) better? C) wanted a different scheme D) liked a degree program they had better or one of the millions of other reasons a 17/18 year olds decide something? I thought it was only because our coaches don't recruit.
Because she complains about never getting to do something she is about to do.
How does one improve on improving? Get better at getting better?
By actually closing the gap on recruits missed and by making personal connections count. Obviously some shit went down (otherwise this thread wouldn't even). You may think that there's nothing that needs improvement. This thread and missed recruits like Hand say otherwise. Also, just because we get Hand and Toliver doesn't constitute as getting everyone we want.
I never once said that nothing needs improvement. I actually said things are improving as evidenced by the expected best class in recent memory.
I truly believe VT makes personal connections count. Which is why brother after brother comes to VT. Even Mihota came to VT, even though his brother played for UVA. Wouldn't that be the ultimate personal connection? Imagine if Kendall went to UVA or something. TKP, TSL, Hokie Haven would all explode at one time. The end of the interwebs as we know it.
Additionally, No team gets everyone they want.
My boss is a FL State alum. He can give you a rundown of their misses.
And I never stated that recruiting hasn't been improving. I simply point out that because we're not on the FSU Auburn level yet we can't afford incidents like these. I think it would be awesome if this never happened. I'd be relieved.
I think everybody agrees that we need to continue improving but incidents like these happen to every team that goes after highly touted recruits. You are never going to eliminate them all because it's a consequence of the recruiting process. Highly recruited players receive lots of offers, narrow down their choice to a couple schools, and ultimately commit to only one school. Recruits are asked why they chose School X (and perhaps even directly asked why they eliminated the other schools). Naturally some recruits (or their families) will respond and justify the decision using any reasons that seem legitimate. At the end of the day, I find it hard to believe that the the real reason is much more complicated than the recruit chose to go to the school where he 1) felt most comfortable and 2) felt he could get to the NFL.
They happen at VT. I'll give you that. I am not sure other schools F it up like we do, though. They have tons of assistants, and they have head coaches who instill recruiting as a religion.
Can't say I follow every school's recruiting but I imagine fans for every school feel like they should have done more to seal the deal when they miss out on recruiting targets. You don't have to look any further than this very article to see two examples of it happening to teams that are highly respected for their recruiting abilities- FSU and Auburn.
Nobody here is denying that we won't get everyone we recruit. Nobody here is denying that the FSUs and Auburns are on a level above us in terms of recruiting. But simple things like introducing yourself to the recruit and their parents (they are making some form of investment in the institution, are they not?) are mishaps that Tech cannot afford at this point in time simply because we are not Fsu or Auburn.
No, they're not paying for tuition, their kid is getting a full ride. And FSU and Auburn do not mess up in recruiting like this. We might screw things up, but those schools don't. I call B.S. on this story...not because of VT, but because of those other two schools.
So basically what you're saying is this writer for the Advocate is blowing it hard out of his ass and that there isn't a single shred of accuracy to the article?
speaking of taking things out of context.
No, I don't think it's all made up. I think it's exactly what Tolliver's parents told him. I think he just transcribed everything they said. However, like all local media sources, there is a bit of bias. And it seems that with this particular kid and his parents (who clearly wanted him to follow in dad's footsteps) there is a lot of bias. What it seems like to me is that this is a not-so-subtle attempt to negatively recruit against two of the best recruiting staffs in the country, as well as VT.
Uhh... they aren't? The school offering the scholarship pays for the student-athlete's tuition.
parents (they are paying for tuition are they not?)
Just because we're doing well doesn't mean we can't be doing better.
Some would argue the level at which we're recruiting now is the level at which we should have been recruiting all along. With that said, there seems to be more smoke than we'd like to see in regards to there still being ongoing problems with recruiting, and especially with the higher talented kids we're able to get interest from. I don't have any reason to believe the families of these kids are lying, but I'm also not willing to think that our coaches are so incompetent to flat out ignore a kid on his official. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Regardless, we need to take a very serious hard look internally on how we are handling the recruiting process and make a deliberate effort to improve everything that we can. The absolute worst thing we can have is to have high profile recruits publicly say they were flat out ignored by our coaches, as both Toliver and Hand have said in recent years.
I agree. But we are improving. Call it "growing pains". I think for every Hand or Toliver, there is a Mook or a McClease.
Im all for getting vt system guys, but you're comparing 5 stars to borderline 3/4 stars. Not a net win for us
Really the starters for both the Patriots and Seahawks during the Super Bowl would have rot disagree. Sometimes the right player for your system is not a 5 star hell not even a 4 star since there are very few 5 stars.
It can be:
Macho Harris = All HS everything, top ranked CB by everyone. Could not stay in the league.
Kyle Fuller = 3*, drafted in the first round and started from day 1.
Jus' sayin.
What does any of this have to do with the nfl? We aren't recruiting guys for the nfl
Not to mention macho was 2 time first team all acc. Kyle was never first team. Don't act like macho didn't work out for vt as much as kyle
Because as Andy Bitter has pointed out in his post having 5/4 stars next to your name does not mean you will be a good college player.
Which has nothing to do with the nfl.
So.....
If A is unrelated to B and B is unrelated to C,
WTH can we say about the relationship between A and C. Well, absolutely nothing. In other words: it can mean everything or nothing.
It doesn't mean they will be a good college player, but good college players tend to be 4 or 5 star guys.
What? Did you read AB's post? Plenty of 4/5 become busts and walk ons become starters.
And WAY more 3 star players never see the field. You're using a sample size of 1 class from one team. How about this. A typical 5 star recruit has a 3 in 5 chance of getting drafted. A 3 star has a 1 in 18
Because there are so few 5 star players.
Yes, and in general a higher percentage of 4/5 stars end up becoming stars and getting drafted.
Oh yes we are. All major D-1 programs are. That is a 5* recruits final goal. Which is why the number of guys at the recruits position that go to the league is important.
B/C there are 5* kids that look at college as a stop-over to the NFL - right or wrong. The Alabama/OSU/LSU can and do accept that - I don't think the VT staff wants those kids.
So vt didn't want sweat? Or kendall? Or tyrod? I'll go ahead and disagree
No one is saying Twch didn't want them, what people do says no is backed up by evidence is that just getting 45 star kids into Tech will not equal wins. Plenty of 4/5 star kids even at Tech don't pan out, so not getting 4/5 star kids is not a direct line cause and effect of not winning as many games.
There is a very clear correlation between recruiting classes and results. Our recent classes are the clear reason for our recent struggles. Rating may not always matter for an individual, but let's not pretend they don't matter as a whole
Our recent recruiting classes are reason for our struggles? Our "classes" are ranked pretty high, most within the top 25-30, which means we are getting good, quality recruits. Now whether we fill gaps that need to be filled, that remains to be seen, but our recruiting is on the upswing recently so it's not indicative of our performance on the field.
Our 2010 and 2011 classes are the primary #1 reason we are struggling like we are right now.
Look at that Bitter article about 2010 alone. 5 4* players were brought in, only 1 panned out as a contributor. That means we basically brought in a class of 3* and below talent, and 4 years later, we're a team that is desperately struggling to stay above .500. This is not a coincidence.
We need more 4* and 5* players to be a contender. We also need these kids to pan out once they get here. We will not be a successful team without bringing in top talent.
That's something that nobody would have predicted at the time though. Recruiting, as we all know, is hit or miss. There are 5-star players that never pan out or at least not up to their 5* potential. It's just a predictive system that has no scientific or quantitative backing.
Yeah but you still need quantity to protect yourself when you have groups that don't pan out. Bringing in 5 4* guys is pretty low, overall. I think last year we came close if not outright doubled that number, and we're looking to do something similar this year. And according to some recruiting services, in 2010, we only brought in 3 4* guys in total.
And even more worrisome about those 4* guys, I believe only 2 were on offense, and neither were at a skill position. Those are the spots you must be bringing in at least 1 or 2 top guys every year.
To add some data to your claim that bringing in only 5 4* guys is low, nobody with a Top 17 class or higher this year except Oregon has less than 9 4* recruits. After that, teams ranked 18-30 have anywhere from 3-7 4* players. So basically, only the top ~15% of D1-A teams have more than 5 4* athletes. That doesn't mean that there's a glaring issue, it means there aren't a ton of 4* players. In most cases, you're talking maybe 300 players total that are 4* or higher. Even then, a 3* player is still in the top 10% of athletes in the nation.
2010 and 2011 we were ranked 34 and 36. It's not a coincidence our dip started shortly after
I guess I just define recent a little different when I look at the last 2 classes who are the freshmen and sophomore contributors to the classes of 2010 and 2011 backups.
IMHO, as long as there are still players from a given recruiting cycle on the roster, then that class is still recent.
Not always. And unless your school is one that pretty much recruits itself (Alabama, Ohio State, Florida State), not even often.
http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/2/5/5382140/recruiting-matters-why...
excellent article. thanks for sharing.
Of course you can find exceptions anywhere
Are you willing to bet an entire recruiting cycle on the hope that you landed nothing but exceptions?
Part of me thinks this is part of Frank's way of deciding who he really wants. I honestly think he's not quite as fond of the 4/5* kids b/c he had issues with some he had in the past. He'll recruit them hard if they are truly interested in VT , but he doesn't want the me first guys. Now I don't think coaches should be ignoring people , especially if they are on campus , but I also think they are evaluating if these kids are expecting to be pampered. That's not Frank's way (doubt its other coaches way either, but I think they are willing to play the game more than the VT staff). Frank doesn't do well with me first guys. He'd rather have a roster of 3* folks that are all about VT vs 5* kids looking for a way to the NFL. Given that, it does put a bit of a ceiling on the program, but Frank has always been about being the underdog and coaching em up.
But an assistant coach for DBs going out of his office to introduce himself to said recruit and family, (apparently) and without needing a reminder isn't what most folks would consider pampering.
If he's not fond of highly ranked kids, he shouldn't waste his precious money and time on them.
I don't care if we get 3*'s or 5*'s, but I care that we get who we spend our time and money on. That's who we want. If we didn't want Tolliver, Sweat or Hand, then why did we bother? Paul Johnson doesn't want those guys because the either don't fit his system or he doesn't think he can get them. He should go to bed feeling pretty good about his recruiting because he gets who he targets. He just doesn't target the guys that Rivals loves.
VT is targeting those guys. And not getting (a lot of) them.
unacceptable at the very least. At what point do we stop brushing these stories off? This type of thing seems to pop up far too often IMO.
Well let's just take into account the fact that you'll never hear the other side of the story either because of the NCAA. You know what stories also pop up? Ones where recruits say "I hear from Coach So-and-so every week. We were chatting through DMs on Twitter yesterday. I felt at home there." You're not going to win them all and not everyone is going to be happy. That's just life/
Probably as much as the stories about how they weren't sure about VT until they arrived,, and loved it.
The issue you are actually addressing is that a 3* will say look at the love from VT, and the 5* says, I didn't get enough attention. They probably get the same amount.
I remember sophomore year, after playing Boston College on a Thursday night (I'm pretty sure it was BC). I saw Torrian in Pamplin and told him "good game last night Torrian" (we lost, but he had played well). He looked at me and said "thanks, you know who I am?" with a surprised look on his face. I also saw him in Sun Life Stadium before the 2011 Orange Bowl. I spoke to him as I walked by and he spoke back. Point is, unless this dude has changed a lot, Torrian is a pretty humble guy. I'm not buying this story for a second. I agree with you guys, they're blowing smoke about their perfect kid and his now perfect school, in the Baton Rouge newspaper, no less. And, newspapers are known to twist people's words too. This is the one thing I hate about college football...legendary coaches who've proven themselves have to kiss some 16/17/18 year old's ass who has, at this point in his life, not done squat. I can't imagine what it must feel like for some kid to get on campus and go from having his ass kissed to having coaches yell and scream at him. Don't get me wrong, these kids deserve respect and I'm not trying to knock them. I just think that now that we have all of these recruiting services and media coverage and all-star games, it gives these kids a sense of entitlement like never before. It's kind of like the Lindsay Lohan's of Hollywood. To be fair, lots of times the parents are far worse than the kids during the recruiting process. Anyway, rant over.
Pretty sure his mom has a reputation for being a little bit dramatic. This for some reason does not surprise me, and I'm not fully buying her side of the story.
A woman being dramatic?! Call me skeptical.
Yeah this whole thing seems.....sketchy.
Not that I think our coaches are perfect, but this seems waaaay too one sided for me. I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye. With how forthcoming our staff / recruits are to get that "family" feel, I don't buy that Torian just shut up for three days and didn't say anything.
Could be something as simple as Torrian had the flu and was balled up in fetal position until the final day of the visit.
One thing that I think is important and brought up a lot here is that recruiting has changed significantly and we've been slow to adapt but seem to be on the right path.
Agree completely. The entire article is based on his Dad putting down 3 very successful programs. I find it hard to believe Auburn and FSU dropped the ball that bad on a recruit like Toliver. Seems to me his Dad is looking for ways to justify the LSU pick, even though he doesn't really need to.
Lot's of smoke if you ask me.
Ah, ya gotta flesh out that article somehow.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Gray would "neglect" a recruit like Toliver coming to Blacksburg. Especially after him being committed to LSU for so long. If he's still making official visits at that point, obviously it's a visit to be taken seriously so I'm not buying the lack of effort or nonchanlance on Torrian's part.
Man, it's a wonder that we get any kids at all given that we apparently ignore all of them and never recruit.
This seems particularly "egregious" (see: suspicious) because it alleges that our best recruiter made a terrible blunder of sorts... Honestly, maybe Torrian didn't give his mother enough attention for her liking and she felt slighted, but it certainly seems that there's another side to this story. Auburn didn't try to call back a consensus top 10 recruit when they're probably taking 4 DB's this year? FSU didn't recruit him hard enough? Seems distinctly unlikely... Even the story reads like his parents dictated where he was going to go regardless of how he felt.
So not only did Torrian, arguably our best recruiter, but Jimbo Fisher drop the ball when recruiting Tolliver with their lack of attention. Oh and Auburn didn't give a five-star CB an official visit?
I'll take this with a grain of salt.
Yeah, I'm not exactly completely buying this either. I thought I remembered Toliver being very impressed with VT and listing them as a very strong #2, but that his family connections to LSU meant he was basically a lock there. This all of a sudden coming out after he's enrolled really seems petty and probably just negative recruiting tactics. Didn't they just offer one of our OL commits really late? Wouldn't surprise me if LSU is trying to pull some last-ditch efforts to get some guys. If I'm not mistaken they still have a few open scholarships this cycle. Just seems very unusual and off-base about Torrian. But I could be wrong.
Yeah odds that three of the top programs would annoy a 5* kids family are pretty steep
Methinks pops is sharing too much qed a Bs or exaggerated tale
Seems like it's just attention whoring parents of a recruit. As much as we need good recruits, I would not want them if it came with baggage like that.
Just in case...
Dear Mrs Toliver,
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Leonard. I am an alumnus of Virginia Tech, a four year member of TKP, and I talk about Hokie football a lot. I feel more than qualifed to address any concerns you may have about your son attending school here. Do not hesitate to contact me to arrange another visit to Blacksburg. I can show you all of the fascinating opportunities that our town and university have to offer.
Help me, help you.
Sincerely,
Leonard
Damn Leonard. If only you would have reached out to his mother before he enrolled early! Mrs. Toliver was extremely upset because it took you so long to contact her. This recruiting loss is on you Leonard. This one is on you.
Sheldon is going to have the amend the recruitmate agreement.
It's cool. That's my job... taking bullets all day long for Coach Gray.
PS
He's got a sack of Hardee's coupons
True, but a good bagman doesn't put that in writing. Just flash that cash at the face to face.
Considering Torrian is almost largely responsible for recruiting and creating what is arguable the best secondary in the country over the past few years I am going to go ahead and agree with those saying that this may not be as it seems from quotes.
Oh jeez. Dammit Torrian! Why didn't you fall to one knee, grab her by the hand, and peer deeply into her eyes and say "We are extremely honored to have your presence grace our university, if there is anything i can do for you during your stay please I am at your beckoning"
I bet he would do that for Mrs Fuller. Hell, I probably would too
Has anyone ever wondered what percentage of our recruits that we offer scholarships to, actually commit to VT? I have always thought that would be a great statistics to uncover, and then be able to compare it to other schools across the nation.
So although we may not pursue the same level of talent as other schools, how much of our recruiting efforts are put into athletes who commit elsewhere or to VT. What percentage of our targets do we land, and how does that number compare to other schools?
If I had to venture a guess, i would say that VT lands a higher percentage than most schools because of our evaluation of players before offering scholarships. And we also aren't going after every 5* recruit. Any thoughts???
Had that thought as well. I'd assume the better the program, the better ratio of scholarship offers to acceptances. But any off-field issues for the program and that ratio could take a hit.
I'd like to take it one step further and see how pre-college rankings compare to a player's status coming into the NFL combine. Virginia Tech hasn't been known for securing tons of top-tiered talent, but we are right up there when it comes to players drafted into the NFL. I would think it would speak highly of the recruiting ability we have to find "sleeper picks" out of high school.
Sorry, but L stands for Louisiana and F for Florida.
Neither can stand for another abbreviation nor more than one word.
"Source" lost credibility with me after one paragraph, but maybe I'm harsh and picky about the English language.
Sounds like psy-ops to me.
Try to plant the seeds in future recruits that the other programs aren't going to treat you right during recruitment, so ignore them.
Wouldn't bother me so much, except the people they are talking about either can't or won't be able to defend themselves against these sorts of things.
It's a cowardly tactic. Tells me LSU is desperate.
I don't take these parents' opinion to the heart, even in soccer we get parents who are obsessed and sometimes want to be the center of attention. Don't forget Ike Whitaker, the kid would screw up and then he's dad would call the washington post and blame the coaches, if that is the same situation with this lady, i'd rather the kid not come here
Ha. Have fun with this one LSU.
This reminds me of that stupid car commercial where the guy's wife says there isn't enough drama involved in the process as she proceeds to ask her husband if he thinks her sister is prettier than her.
Like seriously, get over yourselves. I'm sure Torrian is a busy man with many responsibilities to take care of. And as someone said, this kid's visit was around a gameday. The last thing this team needs is someone who doesn't feel well-respected enough and pouts about it. And I know the kid wasn't the one complaining, but the apple don't fall far from the tree.
Probably got on way too late, but I asked Mike Farrell of Rivals if he believes that FSU, Auburn and VT all dropped the ball on Toliver in his Reddit AMA just now. Will update if he responds.
(he didn't respond to my question, or my follow-up tweet)
This entire article reads as it's sensationalized. No family in their right mind is going to make such an important decision because the defensive back coach didn't introduce himself until the third day of his visit. If that actually made a difference, then it looks like we dodged a bullet.
This is strategic selling; multiple levels with multiple influencers and roles. Dont compromise your story or beliefs but cover every base at least twice. Who cares if theyre prima donnas; its about getting them in the boat. VT whiffs more than a mediocre salesman who can sell the low margin, middle of the accounts but has no idea how to navigate a corporate account.
No matter what the story is, with Isaiah Ford in his ear for the last year and his dad believing VT was the one, its a significant opportunity missed.
Play with the big boys or get out of the room. To see it any other way is naive.
this... 2 many fans have no experience with selling...clearly
if you have a robust process, this kid might have put us into the top 2 with LSU
at that point maybe he connects with TG and you never know from there
point is to open the door systematically... as a matter of course
yes sure... find kids you want to target ... but make everyone else see the virtues of what we have to offer
all this stuff about Jimbo F f***ing it up therefore VT can do this or that is a bunch of crap... Fisher is a moron who can sell when he wants to... we are VT and we can't do that... we need to compensate
we don't compensate by going all Billy Hite on people... we put in place a strategic selling program that is managed by one of our new assistants or Shane or someone who actually thinks recruiting matters
No clue how accurate this story is... but folks sure did circle the wagons in response.
Seriously, what is it about recruiting that gets everybody's juices flowing?
Haven't looked at the site in a day or two and there's a recruiting thread with 100+ comments?
Most of the thread got me dizzy. I lost sight of the ball with the "need to improve our improving" way back there. I need more cat skillz...
After all of this discussion, I would like to see an interview with a recruit's parent to see what they think about VT recruiting and the process. If only there was someone in TKP community like this..
The whole family sounds needy to me. Anytime a story only includes one side, I don't put much stock in it. This one just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.
Since no one on this site knows exactly what occurred on this visit this is all speculation and sounds dubious. My hypotheses " maybe Mama wanted a 5000$ hug."!
Our crappy engineering program keeps costing us all these 5 star recruits....
5 out of the top twenty in state recruits went to VT. Definitely room for improvement. But still top 25 class.
it is a fine line between being cordial and polite to a potential recruit versus fawning over both the recruit and the family. It sort of sounds like we missed out on the polite end of the spectrum.
Damn so now Torian says hi to the moms... /s
Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out there! We wouldn't be here without you. Literally.
I wasn't going to click on this, but I just had to find out why this thread was getting bumped.
Well played sir, well played.
We will assuredly miss on our share of desired recruits, but Sheriff Fuente is in town. Can we assume he has made it clear what he expects of his deputies?