Too low. I would seriously put us Top 25 and not blink an eye doing so.
Why? Let me ramble...
We're the largest public university in a Power 5 conference in one of the largest population dense states in the nation. We are only a few years removed from earning an At-Large bid to the BCS in a game we lost because of poor refereeing. This capped a string of 5 BCS appearances in something like 8 seasons. We are a program that has played good enough football for long enough that a .500 record seems like a disappointment. More importantly, we have a young administration that has dedicated itself to financially and culturally supporting and expanding our athletic footprint and quality in any way they can. We have one of the highest paid basketball coaches in the ACC on staff. When the time comes to hire a football coach, the checkbook will open. Oh, and we have poured money into overhauling our football facilities over the past decade to truly give us a leg up on the competition. Oh, and our alumni base is growing exponentially by the year, and the potential to have massive amounts of revenue from donations is there waiting to be tapped.
33rd is about right under the old administration. Penny pinchers who nickel and dimed our way to success. But now? With Whit and the Sandsman? I don't buy a ranking below 25th. I truly believe this program is primed to take off, and I suspect the resurgence will really start with Beamer's successor.
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But see... that's the thing, you MUST account for potential when talking about how attractive a spot is. Potential is why Michigan and Texas were HUGE spots to fill despite having mediocre to bad football teams at the time of the most recent hires. Our potential is very high right now. Not Michigan or Texas high, but certainly perennial Top 25, contending for ACC titles and being in the National Title discussion every few years kind of potential, and with the newfound abilities of our Athletic Department to legitimately go out and buy an elite coach in other sports, you have to like our positioning when it comes to our moneymaker.
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Michigan and Texas were HUGE spots to fill despite having mediocre to bad football teams
Texas potential defined -
Mack Brown was due to have been paid $5.5 million in 2014, Charlie Strong, will be paid $5 million for the 2014 season the.new contract is a nice step up from Strong's $3.7 million salary at Louisville
Michigan potential defined -
Jim Harbaugh's Michigan contract: 7 years and $5 million per season to start, and $2M signing bonus
Both schools are openly against losing, and after 5 years if either coach has been winning New Years Day Bowl Games I'll expect them to not be there
Edit - Beamer's Salary 2.4 Million
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Top 10 States by FBS Players Per Capita (2006-2014)
1: Georgia - 10,728 residents per FBS player
2: Florida - 13,020 residents per FBS player
3: Alabama - 13,389 residents per FBS player
4: Texas - 14,135 residents per FBS player
5: Ohio - 19,454 residents per FBS player 6: Virginia - 21,921 residents per FBS player
7: North Carolina - 23,779 residents per FBS player
8: California - 33,502 residents per FBS player
9: Pennsylvania - 34,146 residents per FBS player
10: Illinois - 41,256 residents per FBS player
Surprising to see California so low. It seems like they fill the rosters of most teams from the Rockies west. I guess they have such a huge population it brings the average down.
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NJ (most densely populated state, ranked 11th most populous) is home to Rutgers U (total enrollment 41k+, undegrad 33k+) of the B1G (aka Big 10 or 14; I don't know they don't seem to be able to count in that conference).
SEC interest seemed legit. Potential northernmost SEC node proximal to Virginia, NC, Tennessee, with access to TV markets in NOVA/BALT. If UMD gets their act together, SEC expansion is settled without us, I could see us falling to 33. But for now, I think we have potential to have a strong presence in the NOVA/BALT/BEACH areas. No reason why with a dynamic offense we couldn't start to keep the best players on Offense and Defense. Just cause it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't or won't. VT is not a terrible place to recruit players. We've got some climate issues, but we also have some beautiful country that can make you seriously tough in the winter times. Lastly we've got an AD who gets it and can sell it. I think when he finds a coach who gets the potential and has a system... we're going to hit another gear.
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I don't understand the full idea of just sticking with the 757. But anyway heres how recruits have signed from 757 in a 50 mile radius Over the past 4 seasons 3* and above
2.35% East Carolina
2.35% James Madison
2.35% Marshall
2.35% North Carolina
2.35% Penn State
4.71% Old Dominion
34.12% Virginia
36.47% Virginia Tech
12.94% to 13 other schools
12 Other schools 30%
All 757 recruits
James Madison 2%
Marshall 2%
North Carolina 2%
Penn State 2%
Old Dominion 4%
Virginia 28%
Virginia Tech 30%
30 other schools 29%
VT is winning the 757 as best it can. VT needs to move on to recruiting the entire country.
Recruiting continues to focus to narrowly on the state of Virginia. Of the 116 players on the roster currently We have 1 Player from Texas, 0 from Cali, TN, MS, or Alabama. There are only 6 from Fla
6.03% of the roster comes from the 'hotbeds' of football recruiting
Since 2012 More than 60% of players at Tech are instate
UVa has 50% instate
Clemson - 35%
Stanford - 23%
Auburn - 28%
Wisconsin - 26%
Nebraska - 9%
Ole Miss 44%
UGa - 52%
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Going by that list of top 10 FBS-player-producing states, we have players from 6 of them including our own state:
Top 10 States by FBS Players Per Capita (2006-2014)
1: Georgia - 10,728 residents per FBS player
2: Florida - 13,020 residents per FBS player
3: Alabama - 13,389 residents per FBS player
4: Texas - 14,135 residents per FBS player
5: Ohio - 19,454 residents per FBS player
6: Virginia - 21,921 residents per FBS player
7: North Carolina - 23,779 residents per FBS player
8: California - 33,502 residents per FBS player
9: Pennsylvania - 34,146 residents per FBS player
10: Illinois - 41,256 residents per FBS player
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We currently have players on the roster from 7 of the states
Georgia: 3 (Bonner, Facyson, Santamaria)
Florida: 6 (I. Ford, Chung, Cline, Dadi, Madi, Holland)
Texas: 1 (Brewer)
Ohio: 2 (Pettit, Durkin)
Virginia: 76 (Too many to list but Sam Rogers bears mentioning, 9 Seniors/Redshirt Seniors graduating)
North Carolina: 5 (Asante, McKinnon, Moss, Parker, Reed)
Pennsylvania: 5 (A. Ford, Gallo, Jarrett, McKenzie, Willenbrock)
*italics indicates graduating Senior
If we look at our recruits that aren't currently on the Hokiesports roster, we can add the following.
2015:
Georgia: 1 (Plantin)
Florida: 4: (Lydon, Lawson, Arnold, Cunningham)
Virginia: 10 (Once again too many to list)
North Carolina: 3: (Mook, Adoni #1, Gaines)
So taking our two Out of State Safeties and 9 VA Seniors who are graduating and adding in the 2015 recruits we end up with the following numbers in 2015:
From a sheer potential aspect, if the new coach could land the majority of the top 5 and top 10 in-state players every year we would greatly improve our product on the field. Letting 5 star players leave the state year after year has hurt us. If you get that turned around we are back to a top 15 team.
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Agreed. We are top 25 in my mind (or very close to it).
We have a really solid program over the last 20 years, good facilities, a great recruiting base, passionate fans, young AD who doesn't mind spending money, etc.
I'm not delusional and think we belong with programs like OSU, USC, Texas, etc, but we are definitely in the second tier of programs right now.
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I disagree. After 3 disappointing seasons in a row, we're right in the middle. Nebraska, Arizona and Wisconsin are all better than us right now and are in that second tier.
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Again, I don't think success on the field has much to do with the appeal of a job. I doubt anyone is gonna say that VT is unfixable. Also, I still don't think budget alone gets you a great coach- see Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas, California, etc. Anyway...
Wisconsin? A program with an actively hostile administration, that is not in a great location (despite being in a great college town), has fewer conference titles in the last 20 years, has fewer BCS games, has never played for a national title, has trouble beating the big four in-conference opponents consistently (Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, and Nebraska- 10-14 in the past 10 years), has similar prestige, and had coaches leave for Arkansas and Oregon State recently? That Wisconsin? Top 35, probably. Top 30, maybe. A better job than VT, no.
Also, other than their record last year, Arizona has almost no advantages over VT. In no way should they be higher than VT. I wouldn't even say that they're second tier at this point.
I'm also not sure that I would put a blue blood like Nebraska in the second tier, despite their recruiting limitations.
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Arizona I think does have a geographic advantage compared to VT. Better weather, I think. Not sure, but I think their academic standards are lower than many schools as well. At least, if they're anything like AzSt (one of the dumbest schools in the country). I can't recall seeing them high on any USN&WR lists for great schools. Lower academic standards would make a college coach's job a lot easier.
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AzSt is low on USNWR every year, but at least they get a number. Think of how many schools don't get a number. Like, for example, the majority of the Sun Belt.
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Arizona is leagues above us in geographic and alumni advantages. Tucson has DEEP pockets as do a lot of Arizona, and unlike VA that has many schools for 8.3 million people, AZ has basically 2 universities with 6.7 million pop. Tucson the city has most everything you expect a large city to have as well. So if you are basing it off the metrics of this list it should be quite a bit higher.
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So, the argument is that they're a big school and that's the reason why they're a better job? We have a larger athletic department budget than they do and we pay our football staff better than they do...
The prestige isn't there, the location is good but not great, the administrative support is good but not great, recruiting is somewhat difficult, the facilities aren't as good, etc. In a vacuum Arizona isn't a better job.
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Tucson is not so remote a place as you think, plus it's a big city by itself. I lived there for a year and half. Had no problem popping over to Phoenix, San Diego, LA or Las Vegas for some fun, or Mexico. The athletic program has primarily been about basketball since forever. After their famous coach left the whole program floundered until those deep pocketed boosters I mentioned decided that it was time to make changes. Now they are committed to both football and basketball. They are looking at facility improvements as well, but their stadium and basketball arena are both good. They get a shitload of California students and Richrod has made huge gains in the California HS's.
The weather is great. They have slightly lower academic standards. They have 40k plus students with good academic facilities and about every major you can think of. Great urban and outdoor activities. Great nightlife and an outstanding university party scene with outrageous coeds.
Regarding staff salaries you will see this continue to go up but the HC contract sums are comparable. Beamer is at 2.2 total all in. Richrod is about 2 all in. But the boosters have also come up with a lucrative bonus scheme that will far surpass what Beamer gets. LINK
According to Arizona Board of Regents documents, a "major university benefactor" has offered to donate 500,000 units of a Master Limited Partnership (MLP) to the University of Arizona Foundation for the purposes of supporting the university, as well as keeping Miller, Rodriguez and Byrne in Tucson.
According to the documents, as of May 12, each MLP unit was valued at $35.36 for a total donation value of approximately $17.68 million.
Richrod has a proposed 175,000 of these units which if at current value they equal to 6.18 Million.
The prestige in a football sense may not be there but the opportunity for doing something big and making big money is definitely there. And though you think it's remote it isn't. Blacksburg is much more so.
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I really don't buy location as a knock for Virginia Tech. I chose VT in part because it's in the middle of the mountains, and we know there have been players who love the wilderness option (see Brewer). Everyone likes a different environment, sometimes a busier city is what someone looks for, sometimes it's the small college town.
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Me neither. I don't know what the rest of the list looks like (nor am I going to pay for the privilege), but Blacksburg is in a very nice place. Mountain scenery, and not too far from bigger cities should you want to do something like go to a decent mall (sorry, but NRV never did it for me... lol).
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I totally agree. We're near Roanoke, Bristol, and Knoxville which are decent sized cities. Plus there are several top notch programs in smaller college towns or "remote" areas (e.g. Clemson, Tennessee, Auburn, Oklahoma State).
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Location is obviously a huge factor you have no major interstate that runs directly to Blacksburg and no major airport within two hours Yes 81 is fairly close but it doesn't run through Blacksburg. Very hard to recruit someone from out-of-state when you can't even fly up and see the campus you basicly have to fly to Charlotte or Greensboro and drive two hours
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Yeah, there's also the Roanoke-Blacksburg Airport 30 mins north in Roanoke. Not a major airport, but you can still easily fly into Roanoke and drive to the Burg in a half an hour. 81 is connected directly by US 460 and is literally just a few miles east. 460 is also a pretty significant highway that runs the entire width of VA all the way to the tidewater. I'm unsure why so many want to think of VT as this little isolated school way out in the sticks.
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Roanoke is not a major airport by any stretch of the imagination. Blacksburg is kind of out-of-the-way I mean in all honesty. It's a great place but it's a small town and it's not that easy to get to and it's not really close to any major metropolitan areas. Roanoke is not a major metropolitan areas most major cities have suburbs as big or bigger than Roanoke.
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Right, but you can still easily fly into Roanoke and not drive from Greensboro or Charlotte. It's not that tiny. Clemson and Auburn are both in pretty remote areas, and they don't seem to have a problem with getting people there. VT is 4 hours from DC , 4.5-5 from the 757 area, 3.5 from Richmond, and also reasonably close to Bristol via 81 and the Triad region of NC via 81/77 or Roanoke and 220. It is a small rural college town, but it's not like we're on the edge of the world here.
Also interesting to note: our closest ACC rival is not Virginia, and is actually Wake Forest. We're a lot closer to the Carolinas than some would believe.
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Or Penn State. We have 99/220/322 right through town, though, and we have an airport but you can only really fly to Philly or Pittsburgh and it is super expensive to fly in and out of here. I was going to fly out of here to go to a friend's wedding but then checked prices - it was more than 1k$ more expensive to fly out of here than to just drive to DC and go through Dulles/Reagan
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That's right, I forgot about Penn State. Either that or I think I left them off the list because they're adjacent to an Interstate... but then again, that's a very new route.
I was applying to Penn State for grad school and had serious reservations about the area just because of the remote location. Mainly the fact that wherever I go, there has to be sufficient opportunities for work for my wife too.
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State College is a bit more remote than Blacksburg, in some ways. The nearest bigger town is Altoona, about 30 miles away, just like Roanoke is to Blacksburg. I think the Roanoke airport is a bit bigger than ours, but I can't say for sure. But while Roanoke has more resources than Blacksburg, in contrast State College doesn't need Altoona for nothin' except to remind us we're in Pennsyltucky.
The big difference is that State College has everything in it. When I was in the burg, I'd have to drive to Roanoke to get to a Best Buy and some of the big box stores that we tend to go to, but all those stores are actually in State College. So it's just as far out into nowhere as Blacksburg, but the State College boroughs and townships have done a much better job in attracting and keeping businesses in town, both big companies and mom-and-pop shops.
As far as car travels go, we've got 99 coming through town North-South, all the way down to the PA Turnpike and up to I-80, which is a straight shot from Pittsburgh to NJ, so travel around the state is pretty easy from here, whereas your best bet to get East in Blacksburg is taking a podunk 460 across the state or go all the way up to 64 and pass by the Argyle Capitol of America.
I always relate the two with: Blacksburg + 20 years = State College.
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Christiansburg now has Best Buy and a bunch of bigger stores in and around the NRV Mall. There's really not much I would have to drive to Roanoke for now that I couldn't find in Blacksburg or Christiansburg. I have also picked up friends at the Roanoke airport on a direct flight from NYC, so it's easy to get in and out of there. Sometimes you might have a brief layover in Charlotte before heading to Roanoke, but it's a pretty accessible aiport. 81 to 77 from Blacksburg also makes it easy to get to Carolina and other major cities too; it's only about a 2.5 hour drive from BBurg to Charlotte.
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Nice. It's like 2.5 hours to Pitt from here, closer to 3.5 to Philly. 3.5 hours is about how long it takes me to get to family in NOVA, too (Alexandria), so figure DC is about 3.5 away from here.
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I think Penn State is a good comparison to our "remoteness" as well as Auburn. Clemson, you can be in Atlanta in less than 2 hours, it just feels closer to a major city than Blacksburg does. College Station is less than 2 hours from Houston. Point being, the argument that Blacksburg is remote is valid. Yes it's beautiful, yes it's the greatest place on earth to all of us here on TKP, but it's hell on earth for many teenagers who are from the Atlanta area or South Florida. Which means for coaches, that's a big obstacle. Even if they grew up in the middle of no where Florida or Georgia, at least it's warm 10 months out of the year...
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Sure you can cherry pick a few schools that are as remote or maybe slightly more remote than Blacksburg and Virginia Tech but in the grand scheme of things it's one of the most remote colleges in big-time college athletics so geography definitely plays a factor in success
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I'm just saying: Blacksburg is fairly remote in comparison to a lot of other places, but not as remote as many make it out to be. Clemson Auburn and Penn State are arguably just as if not more remote than Blacksburg and have great success in recruiting regardless. It shouldn't be an excuse for us, and I think you will continue to see a huge upswing in recruiting for VT.
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I still don't think taking one of the freeways from Penn State to Philly or Harrisburg or Baltimore is a lot easier than the 2 lane tractor trailer trap of 81 from Blackburg to DC suburbs of Frederick, or 64 or the major secondary of 460 to get to Richmond.
But let's discount that. Let's discuss where it's remote from. Penn State is essentially on freeways that go to the Metropolis, Baltimore, Philly, and the state Capitol.
Blacksburg is essentially remote from the state Capitol ( over the mountain) and Charlotte ( also over the mountain).
I've done both way too often and really, the drive in PA is much easier. I don't think it's anywhere close.
Let alone go over the mountains to get to Charlotte.
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90% of my relatives live there and I travel to Philly, NJ and environs several times yearly. I should get frequent flier miles at Troegs, Conshohoken Brewery and Victory.
The interstates crossing PA are a sight better than the ones crossing VA.
And we're talking about travel time to Richmond. It takes just a bit longer to get from Penn St. to downtown NYC ( and NYC is further than Baltimore, Philly) than from Blacksburg to Richmond. Once you're on that freeway from St. College, it's big wide fast freeway, not 2 lanes filled with loaded 18 wheelers trying to get up hills.
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I think from the outside looking in when appraising VT this seems appropriate. We've had 3 disappointing seasons in a row. Including the last one where we had to beat the eventual national champions to even be bowl eligible, which is equivalent to a student not doing much all semester and then getting 100% on the final to get a 70 overall in the class. Until we show we can have success on the field with the new parts we have in place we shouldn't be in the top 25 just saying "we should be successful for reason x in the coming year or years" sounds like something a wahoo would say if you don't actually achieve anything.
That being said I think will we soon be in the top 25 soon. The new administration looks to be top notch and the people we have coaching including the supporting staff here now seem to be a step up from the past. I am super excited to see what our football and basketball programs can do in the coming years.
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If I were a coach looking at jobs, if care a lot more about existing resources than recent success. Momentum is nice to have, but I want the financial support and occaissional dozens of fans to build my program
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33rd is definitely too low, probably 25th or so if I'm being conservative. While we may not be a blue-blood program or an SEC school, we're at the top of the schools who aren't. The fan base, facilities (after the indoor practice facility is done we'll be top 15 IMO), location, administrative support, and recent prestige would give any new coach the resources to succeed without the ridiculous pressure present at some schools. Obviously there are mitigating circumstances for a lot of coaches, but in a vacuum there's no way we're lower than 30th and certainly not in the lower half of power 5 schools.
Certainly not lower than Washington and likely not lower than Ok State (I think I saw somewhere that they were 20th or so). Not even sure how you can argue that. I would put us above Louisville as well. I don't think that "done it recently" or budget alone are strong enough arguments to significantly raise or drop anyone. I would say that Missouri is pretty comparable and that both should be higher along with Ole Miss- I think Kansas State's location is less ideal and that's already been shown by the disaster that was Ron Prince.
Also, I think that recent success is largely independent of program appeal- it has much more to do with coaching. Michigan wasn't an unappealing job simply because they've struggled for a few years, neither was Florida, Florida State, or Texas
As for UVA, it's all about administrative support. UVA's athletic department does a terrible job of doing what is necessary to succeed in cfb and it seeps into every aspect of that football program. See keeping Mike London for so long.
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Going to call BS. How can this possibly be substantiated? Jobs are about personal subjectivity not objectivity. If I am me then VT is #1 most attractive position and Notre Dame/lolUVA are tied for last, but that's me. Some people just want to be some place more. Like Whit said this is his dream job. It's not about metrics it's about perspective.
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Yes, but whomever the new head coach will be is going to have an IMMENSE amount of pressure to live up to in order to succeed after Frank leaves. It is not going to be an easy job.
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Under this logic the you can never rank anything besides absolutes like the order of the alphabet and what number is bigger. Somethings are universal, or very close to it, in job attractiveness: Pay, upward movement, who your boss is, and resources available. Sometimes something is very subjective, like location. You might have VT as your #1 job, but for everyone of you there are probably a handful that have it low on the spectrum for various reasons. A school with a big budget, access to a huge alumni base, massive recruiting momentum, and the desire to have a successful program is going to be a more attractive job than a school that cares way more about basketball, puts very little into athletics, and can't recruit because a regional power takes all the good recruits.
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I think you are more proving my point than not. Schools will be subjectively rated higher depending on what you the employee is looking for.
But I understand what you are saying. Listing subjective things with objective metrics is something that can be done. Like food, for example. This list however is trying to quantify a subjective "attractiveness" with objective metrics that will be of different importance to everyone interested in the job, which is a no no for me. Attractiveness is only about subjectivity. Going back to the food example. If you rate which food "Tastes" the best then everyone will be different, but when you rate it as an 'overall best' with professional skill and technical ability (like knife work etc) it can be quantified. Drop the word attractiveness and just say you are creating a rating system for best program.
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Athlon Sports did this exercise as well. They ranked VT at #27. From their article:
27. Virginia Tech
Pros: Virginia Tech has a very strong (and underrated) recruiting base, most notably the Hampton Roads-Tidewater area — better known as the '757' by recruiting gurus. The Hokies also have a passionate fan base that creates a tremendous environment at Lane Stadium.
Cons: The school has only been relevant on the national scene under Frank Beamer's watch. Can another coach recreate the magic when Beamer steps aside?
Final Verdict: Virginia Tech isn't quite college football royalty, but it's not far off. Prior to a 7-6 mark in 2012, the Hokies had won at least 10 games in the previous eight straight seasons. You can win a national title in Blacksburg.
Editted - Meant also comment on the rankings from a professional coaching standpoint not being so personal as a fans. Yeah, UVA and WVU are the worst in the country for me (at any level - from rec league to NFL), but from the standpoint of a professional coach, things are very different. Even for a good coach that is a graduate of some school with a program but that program isn't well supported, that good coach isn't going to make a decision to go be the coach at his Alma Mater without a lot of thought. Good coaches are also smart businessmen and they will put their professional career interests first. Hence, their personal interests as fans themselves won't factor much into their professional decisions. The actual professional coaches will be much more objective than the average football fan. The perception of how good a particular coaching job is in the way it's presented in these articles is extremely important to professional coaches.
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I think GT as a football program is the biggest sleeping giant in the ACC and I would rank that job higher than any of the North Carolina schools.
Better recruiting base. Atlanta. Great academics. Decent tradition.
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sorry Andy, I just dislike him. A childhood friend played for him for 5 years and gave me #sources on his particular level of dickishness. I am biased by that and will never agree he is good for football. Plus... chopgate
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They've surely had their moments - and maybe my assumption is flawed - but I think that program could be more of a national brand.
Outside of their incredible finish at the end of last year when they beat Clemson, Georgia and Miss State to close out the season - they haven't exactly performed well in big games.
They've beat UGA twice since 2001.
They recruit horribly for a Power 5 team in the South.
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They only need to recruit well on one side of the ball. Their entire offense is made up of 2/3* guys that only ran the option in high school, so that pulls down their overall recruiting class rankings.
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Giving it a little thought, I think you can throw a blanket over VT, GT, Louisville, and Miami.
VT has a fanbase, stable administration, and a lot of room to grow in fundraising and media presence. It will have to go out of state to get enough recruits to be nationally competitive on a consistent basis.
GT is an untapped giant. If it wants to sell its soul like Miami did, it can do everything Miami did and probably more. What it lacks is the fan and admin support. If one of its grads wants to pull a John Schnatter or Phil Knight, they could be untouchable. UGA may be the big name in Atlanta, but at least Atlanta is college football crazy. Unlike...
Miami is odd it that it has a bazillion recruits in its backyard. It also has no fans and no college football culture to speak of in the community. They pretty much cheated to get everything they have. Financially, their admin is not going to pay top dollar for a coach. It could be a great job, but as it stands it is a stepping stone job. There will never be great appreciation for the coach or the job that is done.
Louisville is rising fast. They have money and they have support from their admin and their community. But they are also now in the ACC and they can no longer recruit like Marshall. The 2016 academic reforms are not going to help them. They have no local recruiting base and will have to live off of other's leftovers. You can only do that from so far away for so long.
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I see you're putting Atlanta as a positive.... as a recruiting bed, yes, but unless you really like big cities (and 3/4-filled stadiums most of the time), Atlanta and GT's fan base aren't much to look at.
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Lots going on in Atlanta (pro-sports/concerts/events) - the average D1 athlete's life isn't all practice and school - trust me, those guys make plenty of time for fun
Decent weather(if you like it warm)
A degree from Georgia Tech is actually worth something
Plenty of networking/job opportunities in entertainment and media for life after football.
More diversity than the average small-town public school
Close to a major airport (good for national recruiting)
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Definitely solid points. Based on the few times I've been down there, it's really just not my cup of tea. Guess that's why I'm in Blacksburg and not Atlanta.
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If GT were to get on a roll of consistent high performance, the crowds in Atlanta would fill their stadium. The GT die hards would be there, and they'd pick up enough of a band wagon following locally there wouldn't be attendance issues.
As for GT's guy-to-girl ratio being so awful, for GT it's still not an issue. It's known as Hotlanta for a reason. Georgia Southern is literally down the street, and Atlanta overall has more single women than men in every age group. There is no shortage of women to pick from if you're attending GT on a football schollie.
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I concur. I was stationed in Savannah and Ft Stewart for a number of years which is "down I-16 from GSU". Having said that, he was right to mention Georgia Southern, all the girls there are hot and 90% of them have rich dads who they love to piss off.
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Oops, yeah it's Georgia State. 32,000 students. And then Kennesaw State is close by. And Georgia Perimeter College, Georgia Gwinnett College, Emory, etc. And several places with nursing programs.
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Following Beamer is going to take some massive onions. Not that the fanbase wouldn't support whomever is chosen to replace him, but unless he keeps the machine running; the leash is going to be short. Unless it is Bud Foster; people would be too scared to vocally criticize him; lest he unleash hell.
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I see things a bit differently. I think enough of the fan base is at least curious to see what things would be like post-Beamer (and some are openly and loudly advocating for it) that the new guy would get a bit of leeway. Of course, leeway here is probably along the lines of 7 wins minimum each year, a top-15 recruiting class by year 3 and at least 2 or 3 appearances in the ACCCG every 5 years. High standards, but definitely doable at VT and in the Coastal.
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I voted "Too Low" but it was close between that and "Just About Right." I think the location is probably the biggest obstacle, just because Blacksburg definitely isn't for everyone, especially in the winter. Still, we have Whit, great facilities, a rabid fan base, and good ties to some great recruiting areas. A good coach would be welcomed with open arms, especially if he has a reputation as a great recruiter. I'd definitely say that VT is a top-25, maybe top-20 job once Beamer leaves. The foundation is there along with the potential for greatness. It's not gonna be as easy as Miami or Alabama in terms of recruiting and resources, but it can be done.
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it's all about expectations vs assets. I don't know that we're wrongly ranked here. Think about it:
1. we are a school where making a bowl is seen as a crappy season. If you're coaching at UVa and make a bowl, you get a contract extension.
2. We are a school with a recent history of being almost rans. When I think about our big bowl appearances in recent history (those that we didn't have automatic berths in due to winning the ACC): Sugar bowl loss to Michigan, Sugar Bowl loss to Auburn, NCG loss to FSU. We have the reputation of a team that's hit its ceiling which makes it very hard for a coach to recruit (not to mention a lot of recruits aren't looking to live somewhere like Blacksburg, crazy as I find that).
3. Throw into the mix that the next head coach will have to decide between trying to integrate into a system that has existed for years and years or start over losing talent like Foster, Wiles, Gray, etc. What head coaching prospect wants to come in knowing it won't really be his team unless he fires one of the most talented defensive coaching staffs ever?
All that to say, I can see how we'd be ranked lower than a lot of us want us to be.
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Number 3 is an excellent point. Not as big a deal if they promote from within, but this ranking was for outside coaches. It would be a terrible situation to be in, trying to decide between my own staff and some of the coaches already in place.
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It is an awesome job, but only for the right guy. You can definitely succeed, the fan base is great, the atmosphere electric, the resources are being provided. But it has unique challenges in geography and culture.
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Exactly, Tech is a unique place. Youre not just going to have any coach come in and succeed. Its a more laid back culture/town than some of the bigger schools. Lets say, after Frank leaves, you end up pulling a guy from the midwest or west coast. Hes most likely not going to work out, or stay very long. Its just not the right fit. Tech needs someone from Va or at least ACC country, and someone that can recruit well. Beamer does well with the Virginia players and the 3* guys he gets. He probably has done about as good a job as anyone in getting the most out of his players. You would be hard pressed to find a guy thats going to be able to do that again.
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I don't think there's a school in America where any coach could come in and win, but I do think there are a handful of coaches who could win anywhere. I don't think VT will land one of those coaches (in the current college football landscape), unless that coach has personal ties to the area. All this could change drastically in the three years though.
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Doesn't Bruce Arians probably make 3 to 4,000,000 a year maybe more any highly rated NFL coach makes much more than most every college coach. I don't see VT paying any coach three or 4 million.
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We're paying Buzz Williams $2.3M a year to coach a program that does not make the school any money (and actually probably runs as an overall expense on our financial reports). When it comes to the program that actually makes us money, I would hope that the we're at the very least willing to go up to $4M a year, and Whit doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is going to let money get in the way of getting his guy, especially if he thinks future gains is worth a short term financial crunch.
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I don't know how you could justify paying coach up to 4 million when you have an established coach he's brought the program from nothing to national prominence a national title game and you're paying him in the middle 2 range.
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Beamer is purposely taking a massive discount to remain our coach. Everyone in the Athletic Department knows this and are prepared to up the ante with his replacement.
The days of penny pinching Jim Weaver are over. We're not going to James Johnson this hire.
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That's completely wrong maybe 10 years ago he was taking hometown discount but all the worry now is Beamer too old so who is going to pony up three or four million a year to hire a 65-year-old (?) coach
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I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be paid more I'm just saying that on the open market it would be hard for him to find another school willing to pay it
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People were saying there was no way we were going to offer more than $1M for a basketball coach because James Johnson made just over $680k. We quadrupled his salary with his replacement.
You're stuck in an old, outdated mindset for our athletic department. As I said, we've moved on from the Jim Weaver days and will sack up and pay a man when its time to do so.
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I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. There are 50 coaches in college basketball who make over 2 million a year there's only 3 or 4 college football coaches who make 4 million a year. So there's a huge difference and saying we're going to get a guy worth 4 million a year in football vs we're going to find a guy worth 2 million a year in basketball. Chances are near 100%!that the next football coach will make less then Frank Beamer
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We ran the numbers earlier this year.... I believe the Top 10 highest paid coaches all make over $4M. To get within the Top 15, I believe you really had to pony up at least $3M per year. And those numbers are only increasing over time.
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Chances are near 100%!that the next football coach will make less then Frank Beamer
And another thing... You don't think our next head football coach will make more than Frank Beamer currently does? Frank currently makes $2,420,913 per year before bonuses. Every day of the week and twice on Sunday will I make that bet. I 100% guarantee that the next coach will make more than that per season.
Heck, Beamer is the 40th highest paid head coach in football right now. As of the start of the 2014 season, he made less than guys like Paul Johnson (GT), Mark Stoops (Kentucky), Kliff Kingsbury (TxTech), Charlie Weis (Kansas), Pat Fitzgerald (NW), Rich Rod (Arizona), Bill Snyder (KSU), Bobby Petrino (UofL), Dana Holgorsen (WVU), Art Briles (Baylor), Todd Graham (ASU)... Shoot, even coaches like Bo Pelini (Nebraska), Will Muschamp (Florida), Brady Hoke (Michigan) who never had an accomplishment as a head coach made more than Frank. Its awesome that Frank has given us the quality we have seen over time with as cheap a pricetag as it gets.
The fact of the matter is, $3.2M per year probably will not get your coach in the Top 25 of coaching salaries in 2016. Anything less than $2.5M and you're in the bottom half of football coaching salaries in the Power 5. Right now, $3M per year would have a coach tied for 4th in the ACC with Bobby Petrino for coaching salaries.
So once again, I guarantee you that Frank's successor will make more than Frank. I'd even go so far as to say his successor will make at least $1M per year more in base salary that Frank is currently making, with a minimum value of $3.5M per year. That simply is the amount you need to put in the pot to stay in the game of high stakes collegiate football, and our financial situation mandates we need to be at that table.
And to clarify, I don't mean we're going to go out there and just offer any Joe Schmo that kind of money. Whit is going to go out and find his guy and we're going to pay a good coach to come in here and lead the program for the kind of salary that his resume deserves. And that coaching search is going to eliminate anyone who's accomplishments wouldn't have him at the very least in the Top 25 of all coaches in the country.
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Maybe, or maybe not. Depends on who is looking to make a move that year. VT REALLY lucked out with Buzz IMO, he was ready to move and we were hiring. The year before, there weren't nearly as many quality coaches available as this offseason. And like I said, it is hard for a successful coach to switch teams without an incredible raise or a much higher profile job. VT only fits the mole of a MUCH higher profile job if you are at a non-power 5 school, or a very low end Power 5 school. And those guys aren't making 2 million a year now so why pay 3 million to move? 2.25 would do it if the guy is only at 1.5 at their current role. Obviously inflation will be considered when I say 3 million because it might be 5-10 years from now before Frank retires if his health is good, I don't think he is on his last legs by any means.
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If you really think we had no quality backup plan to Buzz you really underestimate how smart of an AD that Whit Babcock truly is. We lucked out with Buzz only in the sense our #1 guy said yes. Don't think for a second he was the only candidate we considered who was going to get a big salary.
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In any job opening there are multiple candidates but who can say who would have accepted the VT job vs the other openings that were out there. Just because you pursue a guy with money to spend doesn't mean he will accept, or that someone else won't offer more money or a better opportunity to succeed, sooner
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Maybe... Just maybe we are the big fish that came along getting our guy at whatever the cost and not the little fish just hoping to be ignored that many wish to believe we are.
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I think we fall somewhere in between but probably closer to the little fish in basketball then the big fish I mean we have what one tournament appearance in the last decade? How would we be the big fish? I think it was just the perfect storm
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Not to mention all the assistants and the coordinators you're going to have to pay them on some type of a sliding scale based on what you're paying the head coach. Bud would be making a lot more if Frank was making more. You're not paying Buzz based on what the program is today you're paying Buzz based on future revenue projections you have 15 to 20 home games a year plus tournament money etc. Football has six home games and a bowl game and the revenue stream is pretty maxed out right now whereas basketball has tons of potential
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Because in the arms race that is college coach hiring, Beamer is an anomaly. He's an outstanding, Hall of Fame coach, who's got his dream job. But that's just it. He's the longest tenured active coach, he's comfortable, living very comfortably in his favorite place in the world, and always takes care of his assistants' salaries when the time comes. He prioritizes that, in fact. Beamer, from how he talks, doesn't sound like he gives a damn what he makes. When he hangs up the whistle and we're looking to hire a premiere coach, I think we're going to have to open the wallet a bit further than we're used to. If we end up promoting Bud next, he'll likely be looking at a Beamer-esque salary and we'll maintain status quo, but after that it will happen for sure.
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But you aren't going to find a guy that's willing to leave a successful program whose worth three or 4 million to come to Tech. It just doesn't happen anywhere Nick Saban isnt going to Texas he spent too much time building a successful program. Give me the name of just one guy that you have in mind it's worth 3 million he was going to leave whatever program he's at now Urban Meyer isn't going to leave for a raise in salary once he has the program built, etc etc
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you aren't going to find a guy that's willing to leave a successful program whose worth three or 4 million to come to Tech.
We heard this EXACT same thing about basketball this time last year, and we got THE top coach in the carousel to come in at a salary nobody thought possible for us. If the price is right, we'll get whoever we want, and as I said before, Whit isn't the kind of guy who is going to let price get in the way.
If we're stuck at paying Beamer's salary to his replacement, our times of having football as a revenue generator for VT are over, because anyone we hire will be a huge step backwards in quality. Whit knows this. Whit is planning for this.
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That was a very unique situation probably never to be repeated because he was already having some disagreements at that school he was at. Also his trajectory at that school had probably peaked in all honesty because of conference realignment and other factors that were going to impact that school
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I could be wrong (but I don't think I am), but Buzz's contract has a some VERY significant clauses that would make him take the same (or in this case a little less money) to come to VT.
Buzz has a 7 year contract that automatically extends 1 year EVERY year after 4 years. That means, that if we ever wanted to terminate Buzz, he'd have a 3-4 year severance. And that's if WE wanted to get rid of him. The contract also makes him very easy to lure away. The buyout clause is REALLY sweet. In the 4th year, he can be bought out for $500,000. That's cheap! Buzz has set himself up to basically be hard to fire, and easy to get lured away to a better gig if he succeeds. It's unbelievable job security PLUS leaves room for bigger and better opportunities. THAT is why we got Buzz, I applaud Whit's ballsy move, but we literally handed the keys of the VT basketball kingdom to Buzz.
This is my first post (but I'm a long time lurker). I love dangerously delicious pies and red velvet cake, so I'm still on the fence. I do not live in Baltimore anymore (in NoVA now), but I have no idea how to change my name.
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Buzz's contract is set up to be extremely favorable to him after only a couple of years coaching at Tech. The amazing thing is he negotiated the terms of it himself. If I recall, he's stated in interviews that he has a copy of every other Division 1 coach's contract that he can get his hands on.
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And when it comes to football, we don't have the reputation, recruiting pipeline, or other things you can't put a direct $ sign on to bring in the top coach. We will either have to chance on a smaller name, pony up HUGE money, or structure the contract favorably towards the coach. Probably a combination of the latter.
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At best you're going to find a Larry Fedora type Who is been successful in the mid-major and who is going to take 2 million a year because it's a huge raise and you hope that he can be successful at a power five conference. You aren't going to find a successful power five conference coach willing to leave a successful power five conference program to go to another power five conference program and start all over
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I hate to be the wet blanket when talking about the VT fan base. Here is why I don't see it has a huge strength; 10,000 that is a number HIGHER than supporters of the Hokie Club. That is about half of the output of 3 years of Tech graduations. That low number is why teams like Clemson and Louisville are higher than VT. Money backing the athletic Dept.
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No way Miami is ahead of VT. The "U" mystic is fading. Their facilities are bad, their present coach isn't nationally recognized like their coaches of the past, they can't hold recruits anymore, yada, yada, yada.
Until they do some massive investing they are on a downward slope in my mind.
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It's a nationally recognized name with multiple previous national titles. It sits in a major metropolitan area in a recruiting hotbed. Potential is great and the potential is as much about attractiveness in a job as current performance
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The "U" mystique was strong when Michael Vick was at VT. Recruits still mention Mike Vick playing here. If he's still relevant to our recruits, it's hard to say the 'U' mystique is fading. Not what it once was, but it's definitely still there.
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I think the day the Orange Bowl was torn down was the day the "U Mystique" started to really fade. That stadium they play in now is 20 miles away from campus; its super hard to get people to show up for games and has more of a professional/commercial feel than a college stadium. Couple that with a really small fan and alumni base, the administration never really supporting the program that much anyway, and other schools invading their recruiting base, and it's going to be hard to compete with bigger football schools going forward.
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But the U has and had fans all over the state of Florida and all over the country. They developed the national profile that VT has never developed let's be honest because of the multiple national championships. Even with a few down years it wouldn't take them long to be "back" just look at Florida State. A couple good recruiting years one or two good quarterbacks with all the talent Florida you win a national title
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I think most Miami fans outside of those directly tied to the university are bandwagoners. I hate to make such a huge generalization, but that's the way I've seen it. Miami is such a small school with a small alumni base that hails predominantly from the northeast. Shoot, even Miami itself is a bandwagoning city. When Miami was good, people came out to games and were big fans. When they're not, nowhere to be found. Same with the pro sports too. Miami does not have this huge nationwide fan base like you assert.
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Define huge. I'm just saying they're nationally recognized and yes the fans may be bandwagon fans but they have fans nationwide. Is there a guy sitting in California with the VT Jersey on Who didn't grow up here or isn't an alumni? Probably not. Are there guys who grew up in the 80s all over the nation who have Miami jerseys on or are Miami fans still? Yes. Are there UNC basketball fans everywhere who are bandwagon fans yes
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Well my point remains: those "fans" sitting miles away in California with a Miami jersey aren't donating money to the program and aren't coming to their games. So I don't see how that helps them in any way.
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True, but VERY small. And those proceeds likely go to the university as a whole, not allocated to a specific program. I'm mostly referring to that person in (insert random place here) who bought a Michael Irvin Miami jersey in '87 or a Ken Dorsey jersey in '01 and refuting the assertion that those people signify Miami having strong national fan support. Those people aren't supporting the program via donations or attending games, so that's not an indicator of an incredibly large and supportive fan base. There are tons of bandwagon Alabama fans all over the country, but that's not anywhere near a reason why they have had so much success or why its a great job; mostly, it's a result of that success. Boosters, strong alumni and fan base, tradition and history, and great facilities are much bigger indicators of a great college football program than how many Joe Schmos are sporting your team's hat across the nation.
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It gets them a night game when their performance on the field hasn't merited it. It keeps them in the conversation. Relevance. Speculation that at anytime they could be "back" because they've proven and it has been proven due to their location and surrounding talent that they could put together a run to the national title at any time. They have NFL guys all the time. It's a sleeping giant just waiting on the right coach to put the pieces together
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It's all subjective, of course. It doesn't mean VT can't hire a coach better than the other 30 or so teams. It just means Whit has to sell it or else find a coach that thinks higher of the program than a random ESPN writer. The outcry of insulted fans on here is just proof of why college sports are so great. Our fan base, just like every other one, thinks it's school should be #1. The passion is great!
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I think location is being overstated as a negative. While Blacksburg is fairly remote, the vast majority of college football players are going to be spending the vast majority of their time in the town where their college is located. While Blacksburg and other rural schools may not be for some kids, for most that isn't an issue. Being close to home is more commonly a factor and VT is close to a lot of talent in the mid-atlantic region. While it isn't the deep south, Florida, or Cali, there's still quite a bit of talent to be had in the region and a better situation than a lot of big 10 or even some big 12 teams who all have to jostle over the same limited talent pool.
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Job attractiveness for a neutral party is based on available resources. Resources are based on revenue. VT does not generate revenue like a top 25 program. It just doesn't. Bigger stadiums, more alumni, longer history for other schools all account for that. Miami is the only exception because despite an administration that doesn't want athletics, they have the brightest shining moments of cfb history, which still holds solid weight nationally (look at their 2016 class, even if they don't all stick, kids still idolize the U) and an insane nfl pipeline. We don't have a mega booster like ok st or Oregon.
We've been overperforming our resources histprically. But we have the potential to securely land in the top 25 with the new facility, and whit willing to land a big fish. But I don't blame anyone questioning us, as we have no success outside of Beamer (see Ksu after Snyder left). But I trust whit
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Comments
33rd?
Too low. I would seriously put us Top 25 and not blink an eye doing so.
Why? Let me ramble...
We're the largest public university in a Power 5 conference in one of the largest population dense states in the nation. We are only a few years removed from earning an At-Large bid to the BCS in a game we lost because of poor refereeing. This capped a string of 5 BCS appearances in something like 8 seasons. We are a program that has played good enough football for long enough that a .500 record seems like a disappointment. More importantly, we have a young administration that has dedicated itself to financially and culturally supporting and expanding our athletic footprint and quality in any way they can. We have one of the highest paid basketball coaches in the ACC on staff. When the time comes to hire a football coach, the checkbook will open. Oh, and we have poured money into overhauling our football facilities over the past decade to truly give us a leg up on the competition. Oh, and our alumni base is growing exponentially by the year, and the potential to have massive amounts of revenue from donations is there waiting to be tapped.
33rd is about right under the old administration. Penny pinchers who nickel and dimed our way to success. But now? With Whit and the Sandsman? I don't buy a ranking below 25th. I truly believe this program is primed to take off, and I suspect the resurgence will really start with Beamer's successor.
I bet we've dropped from well inside the top 25 to 33 over the last three seasons. That's the impact of three barely-bowl-eligible seasons.
But see... that's the thing, you MUST account for potential when talking about how attractive a spot is. Potential is why Michigan and Texas were HUGE spots to fill despite having mediocre to bad football teams at the time of the most recent hires. Our potential is very high right now. Not Michigan or Texas high, but certainly perennial Top 25, contending for ACC titles and being in the National Title discussion every few years kind of potential, and with the newfound abilities of our Athletic Department to legitimately go out and buy an elite coach in other sports, you have to like our positioning when it comes to our moneymaker.
Texas potential defined -
Mack Brown was due to have been paid $5.5 million in 2014, Charlie Strong, will be paid $5 million for the 2014 season the.new contract is a nice step up from Strong's $3.7 million salary at Louisville
Michigan potential defined -
Jim Harbaugh's Michigan contract: 7 years and $5 million per season to start, and $2M signing bonus
Both schools are openly against losing, and after 5 years if either coach has been winning New Years Day Bowl Games I'll expect them to not be there
Edit - Beamer's Salary 2.4 Million
If you define potential as the ability to win after hiring a great coach and improving recruiting, you could say that about almost any team.
We are?
No, not even close.
I worded it really funky
Virginia is the 9th largest state
We're the largest school in a P5 conference in Virginia
Hence, we're the largest public university in a Power 5 conference in one of the largest population dense states in the nation.
Well i did learn something. Wouldn't have guessed that Virginia was the 9th largest state.
My numbers have us at 12th, but Alum's point remains. We're nowhere near the bottom.
Also relevant:
Top 10 States by FBS Players Per Capita (2006-2014)
1: Georgia - 10,728 residents per FBS player
2: Florida - 13,020 residents per FBS player
3: Alabama - 13,389 residents per FBS player
4: Texas - 14,135 residents per FBS player
5: Ohio - 19,454 residents per FBS player
6: Virginia - 21,921 residents per FBS player
7: North Carolina - 23,779 residents per FBS player
8: California - 33,502 residents per FBS player
9: Pennsylvania - 34,146 residents per FBS player
10: Illinois - 41,256 residents per FBS player
http://virginiatech.247sports.com/Bolt/Southern-states-lead-the-way-in-producing-FBS-talent-35859937
Surprising to see California so low. It seems like they fill the rosters of most teams from the Rockies west. I guess they have such a huge population it brings the average down.
I'm sure there are more, but Penn State and Ohio State are larger public universities than VT...
Otherwise, agree with you.
and Arizona State, Texas AM, Texas, Mich St, Florida, Minnesota, Indiana, Maryland... and I'm sure there are a few more.
None of which is in Virginia, which was his point, though clumsily worded.
Also Rutgers U
FWIW
NJ (most densely populated state, ranked 11th most populous) is home to Rutgers U (total enrollment 41k+, undegrad 33k+) of the B1G (aka Big 10 or 14; I don't know they don't seem to be able to count in that conference).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_popu...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutgers%E2%80%93New_Brunswick
And as far as the in VA part it was either us or loluva in a P5 conference and it's not like they were ranked ahead of us.
SEC interest seemed legit. Potential northernmost SEC node proximal to Virginia, NC, Tennessee, with access to TV markets in NOVA/BALT. If UMD gets their act together, SEC expansion is settled without us, I could see us falling to 33. But for now, I think we have potential to have a strong presence in the NOVA/BALT/BEACH areas. No reason why with a dynamic offense we couldn't start to keep the best players on Offense and Defense. Just cause it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't or won't. VT is not a terrible place to recruit players. We've got some climate issues, but we also have some beautiful country that can make you seriously tough in the winter times. Lastly we've got an AD who gets it and can sell it. I think when he finds a coach who gets the potential and has a system... we're going to hit another gear.
I don't understand the full idea of just sticking with the 757. But anyway heres how recruits have signed from 757 in a 50 mile radius Over the past 4 seasons
3* and above
2.35% East Carolina
2.35% James Madison
2.35% Marshall
2.35% North Carolina
2.35% Penn State
4.71% Old Dominion
34.12% Virginia
36.47% Virginia Tech
12.94% to 13 other schools
12 Other schools 30%
All 757 recruits
James Madison 2%
Marshall 2%
North Carolina 2%
Penn State 2%
Old Dominion 4%
Virginia 28%
Virginia Tech 30%
30 other schools 29%
VT is winning the 757 as best it can. VT needs to move on to recruiting the entire country.
Recruiting continues to focus to narrowly on the state of Virginia. Of the 116 players on the roster currently We have 1 Player from Texas, 0 from Cali, TN, MS, or Alabama. There are only 6 from Fla
6.03% of the roster comes from the 'hotbeds' of football recruiting
Since 2012 More than 60% of players at Tech are instate
UVa has 50% instate
Clemson - 35%
Stanford - 23%
Auburn - 28%
Wisconsin - 26%
Nebraska - 9%
Ole Miss 44%
UGa - 52%
Going by that list of top 10 FBS-player-producing states, we have players from 6 of them including our own state:
edit
We currently have players on the roster from 7 of the states
Georgia: 3 (Bonner, Facyson, Santamaria)
Florida: 6 (I. Ford, Chung, Cline, Dadi, Madi, Holland)
Texas: 1 (Brewer)
Ohio: 2 (Pettit, Durkin)
Virginia: 76 (Too many to list but Sam Rogers bears mentioning, 9 Seniors/Redshirt Seniors graduating)
North Carolina: 5 (Asante, McKinnon, Moss, Parker, Reed)
Pennsylvania: 5 (A. Ford, Gallo, Jarrett, McKenzie, Willenbrock)
*italics indicates graduating Senior
If we look at our recruits that aren't currently on the Hokiesports roster, we can add the following.
2015:
Georgia: 1 (Plantin)
Florida: 4: (Lydon, Lawson, Arnold, Cunningham)
Virginia: 10 (Once again too many to list)
North Carolina: 3: (Mook, Adoni #1, Gaines)
So taking our two Out of State Safeties and 9 VA Seniors who are graduating and adding in the 2015 recruits we end up with the following numbers in 2015:
Georgia: 3 (3-1+1)
Florida: 10 (6+4)
Texas: 1
Ohio: 2
Virginia: 77 (76-9+10)
North Carolina: 8 (5+3)
Pennsylvania: 5
Looking a little further out for the fun of it:
2016:
Georgia: 1 (Byrd)
Virginia: 1 (O'Donnell )
North Carolina: 1 (Quillen)
2035:
Pennsylvania: 1 (Drew Harris, Jr. )
nvm
I worded mine wrong. VA would make 7.
Also, leg for 2035.
Sadly, Conner O'Donnell isn't technically a commit to our class. He supposedly committed to a non-committable offer.
Sounds like a story behind that.
From a sheer potential aspect, if the new coach could land the majority of the top 5 and top 10 in-state players every year we would greatly improve our product on the field. Letting 5 star players leave the state year after year has hurt us. If you get that turned around we are back to a top 15 team.
Agreed. We are top 25 in my mind (or very close to it).
We have a really solid program over the last 20 years, good facilities, a great recruiting base, passionate fans, young AD who doesn't mind spending money, etc.
I'm not delusional and think we belong with programs like OSU, USC, Texas, etc, but we are definitely in the second tier of programs right now.
I believe we're the best "second tier" program in America.
Print the t-shirts
"Mission Accomplished"
Depending on how exclusive that top-tier is,I think we are pretty low on the second tier at this point in time honestly.
I disagree. After 3 disappointing seasons in a row, we're right in the middle. Nebraska, Arizona and Wisconsin are all better than us right now and are in that second tier.
Again, I don't think success on the field has much to do with the appeal of a job. I doubt anyone is gonna say that VT is unfixable. Also, I still don't think budget alone gets you a great coach- see Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas, California, etc. Anyway...
Wisconsin? A program with an actively hostile administration, that is not in a great location (despite being in a great college town), has fewer conference titles in the last 20 years, has fewer BCS games, has never played for a national title, has trouble beating the big four in-conference opponents consistently (Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, and Nebraska- 10-14 in the past 10 years), has similar prestige, and had coaches leave for Arkansas and Oregon State recently? That Wisconsin? Top 35, probably. Top 30, maybe. A better job than VT, no.
Also, other than their record last year, Arizona has almost no advantages over VT. In no way should they be higher than VT. I wouldn't even say that they're second tier at this point.
I'm also not sure that I would put a blue blood like Nebraska in the second tier, despite their recruiting limitations.
I hate Wisconsin.
Arizona I think does have a geographic advantage compared to VT. Better weather, I think. Not sure, but I think their academic standards are lower than many schools as well. At least, if they're anything like AzSt (one of the dumbest schools in the country). I can't recall seeing them high on any USN&WR lists for great schools. Lower academic standards would make a college coach's job a lot easier.
AzSt is low on USNWR every year, but at least they get a number. Think of how many schools don't get a number. Like, for example, the majority of the Sun Belt.
True, which is why I said almost no advantages. Tucson is just so far from everything out of state and Arizona doesn't produce all that much talent.
Arizona is leagues above us in geographic and alumni advantages. Tucson has DEEP pockets as do a lot of Arizona, and unlike VA that has many schools for 8.3 million people, AZ has basically 2 universities with 6.7 million pop. Tucson the city has most everything you expect a large city to have as well. So if you are basing it off the metrics of this list it should be quite a bit higher.
What about University of Phoenix? They must have an awesome football team and school. I see their commercials on TV all the time! /s
N. Arizona Univ. is a big school. It has the same amount of undergrads as V. Tech. Just doesn't have the athletics.
no offense to NAU. they are a BIG school but they are not in the same league as ASU and UA
So, the argument is that they're a big school and that's the reason why they're a better job? We have a larger athletic department budget than they do and we pay our football staff better than they do...
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/football/assistant
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/
The prestige isn't there, the location is good but not great, the administrative support is good but not great, recruiting is somewhat difficult, the facilities aren't as good, etc. In a vacuum Arizona isn't a better job.
Tucson is not so remote a place as you think, plus it's a big city by itself. I lived there for a year and half. Had no problem popping over to Phoenix, San Diego, LA or Las Vegas for some fun, or Mexico. The athletic program has primarily been about basketball since forever. After their famous coach left the whole program floundered until those deep pocketed boosters I mentioned decided that it was time to make changes. Now they are committed to both football and basketball. They are looking at facility improvements as well, but their stadium and basketball arena are both good. They get a shitload of California students and Richrod has made huge gains in the California HS's.
The weather is great. They have slightly lower academic standards. They have 40k plus students with good academic facilities and about every major you can think of. Great urban and outdoor activities. Great nightlife and an outstanding university party scene with outrageous coeds.
Regarding staff salaries you will see this continue to go up but the HC contract sums are comparable. Beamer is at 2.2 total all in. Richrod is about 2 all in. But the boosters have also come up with a lucrative bonus scheme that will far surpass what Beamer gets. LINK
Richrod has a proposed 175,000 of these units which if at current value they equal to 6.18 Million.
The prestige in a football sense may not be there but the opportunity for doing something big and making big money is definitely there. And though you think it's remote it isn't. Blacksburg is much more so.
Hey, wasn't Tuscon recently voted the city with the highest pop of stupid people in the nation or something?
stupid rich people maybe, but I think you are referring to family guy
I really don't buy location as a knock for Virginia Tech. I chose VT in part because it's in the middle of the mountains, and we know there have been players who love the wilderness option (see Brewer). Everyone likes a different environment, sometimes a busier city is what someone looks for, sometimes it's the small college town.
Agreed. I've been all around the world and have yet to find anywhere better than the 'Burg and its surrounding area. Can't wait to get back out there.
Me neither. I don't know what the rest of the list looks like (nor am I going to pay for the privilege), but Blacksburg is in a very nice place. Mountain scenery, and not too far from bigger cities should you want to do something like go to a decent mall (sorry, but NRV never did it for me... lol).
I totally agree. We're near Roanoke, Bristol, and Knoxville which are decent sized cities. Plus there are several top notch programs in smaller college towns or "remote" areas (e.g. Clemson, Tennessee, Auburn, Oklahoma State).
Location is obviously a huge factor you have no major interstate that runs directly to Blacksburg and no major airport within two hours Yes 81 is fairly close but it doesn't run through Blacksburg. Very hard to recruit someone from out-of-state when you can't even fly up and see the campus you basicly have to fly to Charlotte or Greensboro and drive two hours
I-81 is 7 miles outside of downtown Blacksburg....
Thats a negligible distance when talking about how close VT is to a major highway.
Yeah, there's also the Roanoke-Blacksburg Airport 30 mins north in Roanoke. Not a major airport, but you can still easily fly into Roanoke and drive to the Burg in a half an hour. 81 is connected directly by US 460 and is literally just a few miles east. 460 is also a pretty significant highway that runs the entire width of VA all the way to the tidewater. I'm unsure why so many want to think of VT as this little isolated school way out in the sticks.
Roanoke is not a major airport by any stretch of the imagination. Blacksburg is kind of out-of-the-way I mean in all honesty. It's a great place but it's a small town and it's not that easy to get to and it's not really close to any major metropolitan areas. Roanoke is not a major metropolitan areas most major cities have suburbs as big or bigger than Roanoke.
Right, but you can still easily fly into Roanoke and not drive from Greensboro or Charlotte. It's not that tiny. Clemson and Auburn are both in pretty remote areas, and they don't seem to have a problem with getting people there. VT is 4 hours from DC , 4.5-5 from the 757 area, 3.5 from Richmond, and also reasonably close to Bristol via 81 and the Triad region of NC via 81/77 or Roanoke and 220. It is a small rural college town, but it's not like we're on the edge of the world here.
Also interesting to note: our closest ACC rival is not Virginia, and is actually Wake Forest. We're a lot closer to the Carolinas than some would believe.
Correct. B'burg is closer to Roanoke than Clemson is to Greenville and UVA is to Richmond. Our town is bigger than Clemson too.
No one mentions how the Mississippi schools aren't anywhere near anything. Or Texas A&M.
Or Penn State. We have 99/220/322 right through town, though, and we have an airport but you can only really fly to Philly or Pittsburgh and it is super expensive to fly in and out of here. I was going to fly out of here to go to a friend's wedding but then checked prices - it was more than 1k$ more expensive to fly out of here than to just drive to DC and go through Dulles/Reagan
That's right, I forgot about Penn State. Either that or I think I left them off the list because they're adjacent to an Interstate... but then again, that's a very new route.
I was applying to Penn State for grad school and had serious reservations about the area just because of the remote location. Mainly the fact that wherever I go, there has to be sufficient opportunities for work for my wife too.
State College is a bit more remote than Blacksburg, in some ways. The nearest bigger town is Altoona, about 30 miles away, just like Roanoke is to Blacksburg. I think the Roanoke airport is a bit bigger than ours, but I can't say for sure. But while Roanoke has more resources than Blacksburg, in contrast State College doesn't need Altoona for nothin' except to remind us we're in Pennsyltucky.
The big difference is that State College has everything in it. When I was in the burg, I'd have to drive to Roanoke to get to a Best Buy and some of the big box stores that we tend to go to, but all those stores are actually in State College. So it's just as far out into nowhere as Blacksburg, but the State College boroughs and townships have done a much better job in attracting and keeping businesses in town, both big companies and mom-and-pop shops.
As far as car travels go, we've got 99 coming through town North-South, all the way down to the PA Turnpike and up to I-80, which is a straight shot from Pittsburgh to NJ, so travel around the state is pretty easy from here, whereas your best bet to get East in Blacksburg is taking a podunk 460 across the state or go all the way up to 64 and pass by the Argyle Capitol of America.
I always relate the two with: Blacksburg + 20 years = State College.
Christiansburg now has Best Buy and a bunch of bigger stores in and around the NRV Mall. There's really not much I would have to drive to Roanoke for now that I couldn't find in Blacksburg or Christiansburg. I have also picked up friends at the Roanoke airport on a direct flight from NYC, so it's easy to get in and out of there. Sometimes you might have a brief layover in Charlotte before heading to Roanoke, but it's a pretty accessible aiport. 81 to 77 from Blacksburg also makes it easy to get to Carolina and other major cities too; it's only about a 2.5 hour drive from BBurg to Charlotte.
Nice. It's like 2.5 hours to Pitt from here, closer to 3.5 to Philly. 3.5 hours is about how long it takes me to get to family in NOVA, too (Alexandria), so figure DC is about 3.5 away from here.
I think Penn State is a good comparison to our "remoteness" as well as Auburn. Clemson, you can be in Atlanta in less than 2 hours, it just feels closer to a major city than Blacksburg does. College Station is less than 2 hours from Houston. Point being, the argument that Blacksburg is remote is valid. Yes it's beautiful, yes it's the greatest place on earth to all of us here on TKP, but it's hell on earth for many teenagers who are from the Atlanta area or South Florida. Which means for coaches, that's a big obstacle. Even if they grew up in the middle of no where Florida or Georgia, at least it's warm 10 months out of the year...
You can be in Atlanta from Auburn in 1.5 hours. Also you can be in Birmingham, while no Atlanta is still a much bigger city than Roanoke in 2.
Just saying. #livinginALprobz
Good point, should have looked that up. Guess it always felt much farther to me driving out that way from Atlanta.
Sure you can cherry pick a few schools that are as remote or maybe slightly more remote than Blacksburg and Virginia Tech but in the grand scheme of things it's one of the most remote colleges in big-time college athletics so geography definitely plays a factor in success
I'm just saying: Blacksburg is fairly remote in comparison to a lot of other places, but not as remote as many make it out to be. Clemson Auburn and Penn State are arguably just as if not more remote than Blacksburg and have great success in recruiting regardless. It shouldn't be an excuse for us, and I think you will continue to see a huge upswing in recruiting for VT.
I still don't think taking one of the freeways from Penn State to Philly or Harrisburg or Baltimore is a lot easier than the 2 lane tractor trailer trap of 81 from Blackburg to DC suburbs of Frederick, or 64 or the major secondary of 460 to get to Richmond.
But let's discount that. Let's discuss where it's remote from. Penn State is essentially on freeways that go to the Metropolis, Baltimore, Philly, and the state Capitol.
Blacksburg is essentially remote from the state Capitol ( over the mountain) and Charlotte ( also over the mountain).
I've done both way too often and really, the drive in PA is much easier. I don't think it's anywhere close.
Let alone go over the mountains to get to Charlotte.
PA is a long ass state to drive through.
90% of my relatives live there and I travel to Philly, NJ and environs several times yearly. I should get frequent flier miles at Troegs, Conshohoken Brewery and Victory.
The interstates crossing PA are a sight better than the ones crossing VA.
And we're talking about travel time to Richmond. It takes just a bit longer to get from Penn St. to downtown NYC ( and NYC is further than Baltimore, Philly) than from Blacksburg to Richmond. Once you're on that freeway from St. College, it's big wide fast freeway, not 2 lanes filled with loaded 18 wheelers trying to get up hills.
I meant it's long-ass going from the southeastern corner to the northwestern. Going up the eastern or just the western isn't too bad.
I think from the outside looking in when appraising VT this seems appropriate. We've had 3 disappointing seasons in a row. Including the last one where we had to beat the eventual national champions to even be bowl eligible, which is equivalent to a student not doing much all semester and then getting 100% on the final to get a 70 overall in the class. Until we show we can have success on the field with the new parts we have in place we shouldn't be in the top 25 just saying "we should be successful for reason x in the coming year or years" sounds like something a wahoo would say if you don't actually achieve anything.
That being said I think will we soon be in the top 25 soon. The new administration looks to be top notch and the people we have coaching including the supporting staff here now seem to be a step up from the past. I am super excited to see what our football and basketball programs can do in the coming years.
Nonsense! The Wake and Duke jobs should be ranked above LOLUVa. They've done way more in ACC Football, even with lesser resources.
If I were a coach looking at jobs, if care a lot more about existing resources than recent success. Momentum is nice to have, but I want the financial support and occaissional dozens of fans to build my program
The only issue I have with us being a "lock" in the top 25, is who did they list that you would supplant for us? Its a tough call.
33rd is definitely too low, probably 25th or so if I'm being conservative. While we may not be a blue-blood program or an SEC school, we're at the top of the schools who aren't. The fan base, facilities (after the indoor practice facility is done we'll be top 15 IMO), location, administrative support, and recent prestige would give any new coach the resources to succeed without the ridiculous pressure present at some schools. Obviously there are mitigating circumstances for a lot of coaches, but in a vacuum there's no way we're lower than 30th and certainly not in the lower half of power 5 schools.
Certainly not lower than Washington and likely not lower than Ok State (I think I saw somewhere that they were 20th or so). Not even sure how you can argue that. I would put us above Louisville as well. I don't think that "done it recently" or budget alone are strong enough arguments to significantly raise or drop anyone. I would say that Missouri is pretty comparable and that both should be higher along with Ole Miss- I think Kansas State's location is less ideal and that's already been shown by the disaster that was Ron Prince.
Also, I think that recent success is largely independent of program appeal- it has much more to do with coaching. Michigan wasn't an unappealing job simply because they've struggled for a few years, neither was Florida, Florida State, or Texas
As for UVA, it's all about administrative support. UVA's athletic department does a terrible job of doing what is necessary to succeed in cfb and it seeps into every aspect of that football program. See keeping Mike London for so long.
Going to call BS. How can this possibly be substantiated? Jobs are about personal subjectivity not objectivity. If I am me then VT is #1 most attractive position and Notre Dame/lolUVA are tied for last, but that's me. Some people just want to be some place more. Like Whit said this is his dream job. It's not about metrics it's about perspective.
Yes, but whomever the new head coach will be is going to have an IMMENSE amount of pressure to live up to in order to succeed after Frank leaves. It is not going to be an easy job.
Under this logic the you can never rank anything besides absolutes like the order of the alphabet and what number is bigger. Somethings are universal, or very close to it, in job attractiveness: Pay, upward movement, who your boss is, and resources available. Sometimes something is very subjective, like location. You might have VT as your #1 job, but for everyone of you there are probably a handful that have it low on the spectrum for various reasons. A school with a big budget, access to a huge alumni base, massive recruiting momentum, and the desire to have a successful program is going to be a more attractive job than a school that cares way more about basketball, puts very little into athletics, and can't recruit because a regional power takes all the good recruits.
I think you are more proving my point than not. Schools will be subjectively rated higher depending on what you the employee is looking for.
But I understand what you are saying. Listing subjective things with objective metrics is something that can be done. Like food, for example. This list however is trying to quantify a subjective "attractiveness" with objective metrics that will be of different importance to everyone interested in the job, which is a no no for me. Attractiveness is only about subjectivity. Going back to the food example. If you rate which food "Tastes" the best then everyone will be different, but when you rate it as an 'overall best' with professional skill and technical ability (like knife work etc) it can be quantified. Drop the word attractiveness and just say you are creating a rating system for best program.
they'd be better off putting them in tiers. VT is a 4 star. it has everything except access to a large number of recruits.
i think Whit sees a fan base/revenue stream left largely untapped by Weaver and the potential to dominate a significant media market.
if Buzz can launch basketball, it will also help with football
Athlon Sports did this exercise as well. They ranked VT at #27. From their article:
27. Virginia Tech
Pros: Virginia Tech has a very strong (and underrated) recruiting base, most notably the Hampton Roads-Tidewater area — better known as the '757' by recruiting gurus. The Hokies also have a passionate fan base that creates a tremendous environment at Lane Stadium.
Cons: The school has only been relevant on the national scene under Frank Beamer's watch. Can another coach recreate the magic when Beamer steps aside?
Final Verdict: Virginia Tech isn't quite college football royalty, but it's not far off. Prior to a 7-6 mark in 2012, the Hokies had won at least 10 games in the previous eight straight seasons. You can win a national title in Blacksburg.
Article Link
Editted - Meant also comment on the rankings from a professional coaching standpoint not being so personal as a fans. Yeah, UVA and WVU are the worst in the country for me (at any level - from rec league to NFL), but from the standpoint of a professional coach, things are very different. Even for a good coach that is a graduate of some school with a program but that program isn't well supported, that good coach isn't going to make a decision to go be the coach at his Alma Mater without a lot of thought. Good coaches are also smart businessmen and they will put their professional career interests first. Hence, their personal interests as fans themselves won't factor much into their professional decisions. The actual professional coaches will be much more objective than the average football fan. The perception of how good a particular coaching job is in the way it's presented in these articles is extremely important to professional coaches.
I think GT as a football program is the biggest sleeping giant in the ACC and I would rank that job higher than any of the North Carolina schools.
Better recruiting base. Atlanta. Great academics. Decent tradition.
all true, but.... Paul Johnson. It will take decades to get that stench out
Yah. I know they had some success last year, but they could be so much more.
The stench of four division titles, one ACC championship and, just recently, a top 10 finish?
sorry Andy, I just dislike him. A childhood friend played for him for 5 years and gave me #sources on his particular level of dickishness. I am biased by that and will never agree he is good for football. Plus... chopgate
Oh, I'm sure he's prickly. But GT, second to VT, has been as good as anybody in the Coastal since it was formed.
That I cannot disagree with which is why I love TECHMObowl so much. Everybody needs their foil and he provides a great one.
But when Johnson leaves, he'll leave that roster hamstrung for a couple of years.
Unless they stick with the triple option. TBH that would probably be the smart play.
They've surely had their moments - and maybe my assumption is flawed - but I think that program could be more of a national brand.
Outside of their incredible finish at the end of last year when they beat Clemson, Georgia and Miss State to close out the season - they haven't exactly performed well in big games.
They've beat UGA twice since 2001.
They recruit horribly for a Power 5 team in the South.
They only need to recruit well on one side of the ball. Their entire offense is made up of 2/3* guys that only ran the option in high school, so that pulls down their overall recruiting class rankings.
Giving it a little thought, I think you can throw a blanket over VT, GT, Louisville, and Miami.
VT has a fanbase, stable administration, and a lot of room to grow in fundraising and media presence. It will have to go out of state to get enough recruits to be nationally competitive on a consistent basis.
GT is an untapped giant. If it wants to sell its soul like Miami did, it can do everything Miami did and probably more. What it lacks is the fan and admin support. If one of its grads wants to pull a John Schnatter or Phil Knight, they could be untouchable. UGA may be the big name in Atlanta, but at least Atlanta is college football crazy. Unlike...
Miami is odd it that it has a bazillion recruits in its backyard. It also has no fans and no college football culture to speak of in the community. They pretty much cheated to get everything they have. Financially, their admin is not going to pay top dollar for a coach. It could be a great job, but as it stands it is a stepping stone job. There will never be great appreciation for the coach or the job that is done.
Louisville is rising fast. They have money and they have support from their admin and their community. But they are also now in the ACC and they can no longer recruit like Marshall. The 2016 academic reforms are not going to help them. They have no local recruiting base and will have to live off of other's leftovers. You can only do that from so far away for so long.
I see you're putting Atlanta as a positive.... as a recruiting bed, yes, but unless you really like big cities (and 3/4-filled stadiums most of the time), Atlanta and GT's fan base aren't much to look at.
Lots going on in Atlanta (pro-sports/concerts/events) - the average D1 athlete's life isn't all practice and school - trust me, those guys make plenty of time for fun
Decent weather(if you like it warm)
A degree from Georgia Tech is actually worth something
Plenty of networking/job opportunities in entertainment and media for life after football.
More diversity than the average small-town public school
Close to a major airport (good for national recruiting)
Definitely solid points. Based on the few times I've been down there, it's really just not my cup of tea. Guess that's why I'm in Blacksburg and not Atlanta.
If GT were to get on a roll of consistent high performance, the crowds in Atlanta would fill their stadium. The GT die hards would be there, and they'd pick up enough of a band wagon following locally there wouldn't be attendance issues.
As for GT's guy-to-girl ratio being so awful, for GT it's still not an issue. It's known as Hotlanta for a reason. Georgia Southern is literally down the street, and Atlanta overall has more single women than men in every age group. There is no shortage of women to pick from if you're attending GT on a football schollie.
State. Probably an untimely typo.
I concur. I was stationed in Savannah and Ft Stewart for a number of years which is "down I-16 from GSU". Having said that, he was right to mention Georgia Southern, all the girls there are hot and 90% of them have rich dads who they love to piss off.
Oops, yeah it's Georgia State. 32,000 students. And then Kennesaw State is close by. And Georgia Perimeter College, Georgia Gwinnett College, Emory, etc. And several places with nursing programs.
Overall, it's a good gig.
Following Beamer is going to take some massive onions. Not that the fanbase wouldn't support whomever is chosen to replace him, but unless he keeps the machine running; the leash is going to be short. Unless it is Bud Foster; people would be too scared to vocally criticize him; lest he unleash hell.
I see things a bit differently. I think enough of the fan base is at least curious to see what things would be like post-Beamer (and some are openly and loudly advocating for it) that the new guy would get a bit of leeway. Of course, leeway here is probably along the lines of 7 wins minimum each year, a top-15 recruiting class by year 3 and at least 2 or 3 appearances in the ACCCG every 5 years. High standards, but definitely doable at VT and in the Coastal.
VT has never had a top 15 recruiting class. The fan base would be ecstatic if it happened
I voted "Too Low" but it was close between that and "Just About Right." I think the location is probably the biggest obstacle, just because Blacksburg definitely isn't for everyone, especially in the winter. Still, we have Whit, great facilities, a rabid fan base, and good ties to some great recruiting areas. A good coach would be welcomed with open arms, especially if he has a reputation as a great recruiter. I'd definitely say that VT is a top-25, maybe top-20 job once Beamer leaves. The foundation is there along with the potential for greatness. It's not gonna be as easy as Miami or Alabama in terms of recruiting and resources, but it can be done.
it's all about expectations vs assets. I don't know that we're wrongly ranked here. Think about it:
1. we are a school where making a bowl is seen as a crappy season. If you're coaching at UVa and make a bowl, you get a contract extension.
2. We are a school with a recent history of being almost rans. When I think about our big bowl appearances in recent history (those that we didn't have automatic berths in due to winning the ACC): Sugar bowl loss to Michigan, Sugar Bowl loss to Auburn, NCG loss to FSU. We have the reputation of a team that's hit its ceiling which makes it very hard for a coach to recruit (not to mention a lot of recruits aren't looking to live somewhere like Blacksburg, crazy as I find that).
3. Throw into the mix that the next head coach will have to decide between trying to integrate into a system that has existed for years and years or start over losing talent like Foster, Wiles, Gray, etc. What head coaching prospect wants to come in knowing it won't really be his team unless he fires one of the most talented defensive coaching staffs ever?
All that to say, I can see how we'd be ranked lower than a lot of us want us to be.
Number 3 is an excellent point. Not as big a deal if they promote from within, but this ranking was for outside coaches. It would be a terrible situation to be in, trying to decide between my own staff and some of the coaches already in place.
It is an awesome job, but only for the right guy. You can definitely succeed, the fan base is great, the atmosphere electric, the resources are being provided. But it has unique challenges in geography and culture.
Exactly, Tech is a unique place. Youre not just going to have any coach come in and succeed. Its a more laid back culture/town than some of the bigger schools. Lets say, after Frank leaves, you end up pulling a guy from the midwest or west coast. Hes most likely not going to work out, or stay very long. Its just not the right fit. Tech needs someone from Va or at least ACC country, and someone that can recruit well. Beamer does well with the Virginia players and the 3* guys he gets. He probably has done about as good a job as anyone in getting the most out of his players. You would be hard pressed to find a guy thats going to be able to do that again.
I don't think there's a school in America where any coach could come in and win, but I do think there are a handful of coaches who could win anywhere. I don't think VT will land one of those coaches (in the current college football landscape), unless that coach has personal ties to the area. All this could change drastically in the three years though.
Perspectives will change when VT hires Bruce Arians.
Doesn't Bruce Arians probably make 3 to 4,000,000 a year maybe more any highly rated NFL coach makes much more than most every college coach. I don't see VT paying any coach three or 4 million.
We're paying Buzz Williams $2.3M a year to coach a program that does not make the school any money (and actually probably runs as an overall expense on our financial reports). When it comes to the program that actually makes us money, I would hope that the we're at the very least willing to go up to $4M a year, and Whit doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is going to let money get in the way of getting his guy, especially if he thinks future gains is worth a short term financial crunch.
I don't know how you could justify paying coach up to 4 million when you have an established coach he's brought the program from nothing to national prominence a national title game and you're paying him in the middle 2 range.
Beamer is purposely taking a massive discount to remain our coach. Everyone in the Athletic Department knows this and are prepared to up the ante with his replacement.
The days of penny pinching Jim Weaver are over. We're not going to James Johnson this hire.
That's completely wrong maybe 10 years ago he was taking hometown discount but all the worry now is Beamer too old so who is going to pony up three or four million a year to hire a 65-year-old (?) coach
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be paid more I'm just saying that on the open market it would be hard for him to find another school willing to pay it
People were saying there was no way we were going to offer more than $1M for a basketball coach because James Johnson made just over $680k. We quadrupled his salary with his replacement.
You're stuck in an old, outdated mindset for our athletic department. As I said, we've moved on from the Jim Weaver days and will sack up and pay a man when its time to do so.
I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. There are 50 coaches in college basketball who make over 2 million a year there's only 3 or 4 college football coaches who make 4 million a year. So there's a huge difference and saying we're going to get a guy worth 4 million a year in football vs we're going to find a guy worth 2 million a year in basketball. Chances are near 100%!that the next football coach will make less then Frank Beamer
Depends who it is. Whit will shell out for a guy with a name.
But not for a guy whose resume doesn't show anything more impressive than "Averett - graduate assistant" or "CNU - DB coach" or "UVA - head coach."
We ran the numbers earlier this year.... I believe the Top 10 highest paid coaches all make over $4M. To get within the Top 15, I believe you really had to pony up at least $3M per year. And those numbers are only increasing over time.
And another thing... You don't think our next head football coach will make more than Frank Beamer currently does? Frank currently makes $2,420,913 per year before bonuses. Every day of the week and twice on Sunday will I make that bet. I 100% guarantee that the next coach will make more than that per season.
Heck, Beamer is the 40th highest paid head coach in football right now. As of the start of the 2014 season, he made less than guys like Paul Johnson (GT), Mark Stoops (Kentucky), Kliff Kingsbury (TxTech), Charlie Weis (Kansas), Pat Fitzgerald (NW), Rich Rod (Arizona), Bill Snyder (KSU), Bobby Petrino (UofL), Dana Holgorsen (WVU), Art Briles (Baylor), Todd Graham (ASU)... Shoot, even coaches like Bo Pelini (Nebraska), Will Muschamp (Florida), Brady Hoke (Michigan) who never had an accomplishment as a head coach made more than Frank. Its awesome that Frank has given us the quality we have seen over time with as cheap a pricetag as it gets.
The fact of the matter is, $3.2M per year probably will not get your coach in the Top 25 of coaching salaries in 2016. Anything less than $2.5M and you're in the bottom half of football coaching salaries in the Power 5. Right now, $3M per year would have a coach tied for 4th in the ACC with Bobby Petrino for coaching salaries.
So once again, I guarantee you that Frank's successor will make more than Frank. I'd even go so far as to say his successor will make at least $1M per year more in base salary that Frank is currently making, with a minimum value of $3.5M per year. That simply is the amount you need to put in the pot to stay in the game of high stakes collegiate football, and our financial situation mandates we need to be at that table.
And to clarify, I don't mean we're going to go out there and just offer any Joe Schmo that kind of money. Whit is going to go out and find his guy and we're going to pay a good coach to come in here and lead the program for the kind of salary that his resume deserves. And that coaching search is going to eliminate anyone who's accomplishments wouldn't have him at the very least in the Top 25 of all coaches in the country.
Maybe, or maybe not. Depends on who is looking to make a move that year. VT REALLY lucked out with Buzz IMO, he was ready to move and we were hiring. The year before, there weren't nearly as many quality coaches available as this offseason. And like I said, it is hard for a successful coach to switch teams without an incredible raise or a much higher profile job. VT only fits the mole of a MUCH higher profile job if you are at a non-power 5 school, or a very low end Power 5 school. And those guys aren't making 2 million a year now so why pay 3 million to move? 2.25 would do it if the guy is only at 1.5 at their current role. Obviously inflation will be considered when I say 3 million because it might be 5-10 years from now before Frank retires if his health is good, I don't think he is on his last legs by any means.
If you really think we had no quality backup plan to Buzz you really underestimate how smart of an AD that Whit Babcock truly is. We lucked out with Buzz only in the sense our #1 guy said yes. Don't think for a second he was the only candidate we considered who was going to get a big salary.
In any job opening there are multiple candidates but who can say who would have accepted the VT job vs the other openings that were out there. Just because you pursue a guy with money to spend doesn't mean he will accept, or that someone else won't offer more money or a better opportunity to succeed, sooner
And yet we landed the big fish with a big salary.
Maybe... Just maybe we are the big fish that came along getting our guy at whatever the cost and not the little fish just hoping to be ignored that many wish to believe we are.
I think we fall somewhere in between but probably closer to the little fish in basketball then the big fish I mean we have what one tournament appearance in the last decade? How would we be the big fish? I think it was just the perfect storm
Not to mention all the assistants and the coordinators you're going to have to pay them on some type of a sliding scale based on what you're paying the head coach. Bud would be making a lot more if Frank was making more. You're not paying Buzz based on what the program is today you're paying Buzz based on future revenue projections you have 15 to 20 home games a year plus tournament money etc. Football has six home games and a bowl game and the revenue stream is pretty maxed out right now whereas basketball has tons of potential
Because in the arms race that is college coach hiring, Beamer is an anomaly. He's an outstanding, Hall of Fame coach, who's got his dream job. But that's just it. He's the longest tenured active coach, he's comfortable, living very comfortably in his favorite place in the world, and always takes care of his assistants' salaries when the time comes. He prioritizes that, in fact. Beamer, from how he talks, doesn't sound like he gives a damn what he makes. When he hangs up the whistle and we're looking to hire a premiere coach, I think we're going to have to open the wallet a bit further than we're used to. If we end up promoting Bud next, he'll likely be looking at a Beamer-esque salary and we'll maintain status quo, but after that it will happen for sure.
But you aren't going to find a guy that's willing to leave a successful program whose worth three or 4 million to come to Tech. It just doesn't happen anywhere Nick Saban isnt going to Texas he spent too much time building a successful program. Give me the name of just one guy that you have in mind it's worth 3 million he was going to leave whatever program he's at now Urban Meyer isn't going to leave for a raise in salary once he has the program built, etc etc
We heard this EXACT same thing about basketball this time last year, and we got THE top coach in the carousel to come in at a salary nobody thought possible for us. If the price is right, we'll get whoever we want, and as I said before, Whit isn't the kind of guy who is going to let price get in the way.
If we're stuck at paying Beamer's salary to his replacement, our times of having football as a revenue generator for VT are over, because anyone we hire will be a huge step backwards in quality. Whit knows this. Whit is planning for this.
That was a very unique situation probably never to be repeated because he was already having some disagreements at that school he was at. Also his trajectory at that school had probably peaked in all honesty because of conference realignment and other factors that were going to impact that school
I could be wrong (but I don't think I am), but Buzz's contract has a some VERY significant clauses that would make him take the same (or in this case a little less money) to come to VT.
Buzz has a 7 year contract that automatically extends 1 year EVERY year after 4 years. That means, that if we ever wanted to terminate Buzz, he'd have a 3-4 year severance. And that's if WE wanted to get rid of him. The contract also makes him very easy to lure away. The buyout clause is REALLY sweet. In the 4th year, he can be bought out for $500,000. That's cheap! Buzz has set himself up to basically be hard to fire, and easy to get lured away to a better gig if he succeeds. It's unbelievable job security PLUS leaves room for bigger and better opportunities. THAT is why we got Buzz, I applaud Whit's ballsy move, but we literally handed the keys of the VT basketball kingdom to Buzz.
This is my first post (but I'm a long time lurker). I love dangerously delicious pies and red velvet cake, so I'm still on the fence. I do not live in Baltimore anymore (in NoVA now), but I have no idea how to change my name.
In all fairness, those keys were to a fixer-upper that had been left in disarray so the value wasn't all that high.
Buzz's contract is set up to be extremely favorable to him after only a couple of years coaching at Tech. The amazing thing is he negotiated the terms of it himself. If I recall, he's stated in interviews that he has a copy of every other Division 1 coach's contract that he can get his hands on.
And when it comes to football, we don't have the reputation, recruiting pipeline, or other things you can't put a direct $ sign on to bring in the top coach. We will either have to chance on a smaller name, pony up HUGE money, or structure the contract favorably towards the coach. Probably a combination of the latter.
At best you're going to find a Larry Fedora type Who is been successful in the mid-major and who is going to take 2 million a year because it's a huge raise and you hope that he can be successful at a power five conference. You aren't going to find a successful power five conference coach willing to leave a successful power five conference program to go to another power five conference program and start all over
YES! That's my dream!
you mean gary darnell.
I hate to be the wet blanket when talking about the VT fan base. Here is why I don't see it has a huge strength; 10,000 that is a number HIGHER than supporters of the Hokie Club. That is about half of the output of 3 years of Tech graduations. That low number is why teams like Clemson and Louisville are higher than VT. Money backing the athletic Dept.
Tell me about it, when I joined I thought I would be like number 30,000 or something. Nope only 4 digits to my rank.
Unless Whit and Co. Can get that to 12,000 or so forget paying top dollar to the next football staff.
No way Miami is ahead of VT. The "U" mystic is fading. Their facilities are bad, their present coach isn't nationally recognized like their coaches of the past, they can't hold recruits anymore, yada, yada, yada.
Until they do some massive investing they are on a downward slope in my mind.
It's a nationally recognized name with multiple previous national titles. It sits in a major metropolitan area in a recruiting hotbed. Potential is great and the potential is as much about attractiveness in a job as current performance
And they also have an administration that has never fully backed the team, even less so now. Don't downplay that.
The "U" mystique was strong when Michael Vick was at VT. Recruits still mention Mike Vick playing here. If he's still relevant to our recruits, it's hard to say the 'U' mystique is fading. Not what it once was, but it's definitely still there.
I think the day the Orange Bowl was torn down was the day the "U Mystique" started to really fade. That stadium they play in now is 20 miles away from campus; its super hard to get people to show up for games and has more of a professional/commercial feel than a college stadium. Couple that with a really small fan and alumni base, the administration never really supporting the program that much anyway, and other schools invading their recruiting base, and it's going to be hard to compete with bigger football schools going forward.
"48-0 bro"
-- LOLUVA to Miami in 2007
But the U has and had fans all over the state of Florida and all over the country. They developed the national profile that VT has never developed let's be honest because of the multiple national championships. Even with a few down years it wouldn't take them long to be "back" just look at Florida State. A couple good recruiting years one or two good quarterbacks with all the talent Florida you win a national title
I think most Miami fans outside of those directly tied to the university are bandwagoners. I hate to make such a huge generalization, but that's the way I've seen it. Miami is such a small school with a small alumni base that hails predominantly from the northeast. Shoot, even Miami itself is a bandwagoning city. When Miami was good, people came out to games and were big fans. When they're not, nowhere to be found. Same with the pro sports too. Miami does not have this huge nationwide fan base like you assert.
Define huge. I'm just saying they're nationally recognized and yes the fans may be bandwagon fans but they have fans nationwide. Is there a guy sitting in California with the VT Jersey on Who didn't grow up here or isn't an alumni? Probably not. Are there guys who grew up in the 80s all over the nation who have Miami jerseys on or are Miami fans still? Yes. Are there UNC basketball fans everywhere who are bandwagon fans yes
Well my point remains: those "fans" sitting miles away in California with a Miami jersey aren't donating money to the program and aren't coming to their games. So I don't see how that helps them in any way.
Well, Miami does see a small cut of the money made when that bandwagoner purchases their Miami jersey...
True, but VERY small. And those proceeds likely go to the university as a whole, not allocated to a specific program. I'm mostly referring to that person in (insert random place here) who bought a Michael Irvin Miami jersey in '87 or a Ken Dorsey jersey in '01 and refuting the assertion that those people signify Miami having strong national fan support. Those people aren't supporting the program via donations or attending games, so that's not an indicator of an incredibly large and supportive fan base. There are tons of bandwagon Alabama fans all over the country, but that's not anywhere near a reason why they have had so much success or why its a great job; mostly, it's a result of that success. Boosters, strong alumni and fan base, tradition and history, and great facilities are much bigger indicators of a great college football program than how many Joe Schmos are sporting your team's hat across the nation.
It gets them a night game when their performance on the field hasn't merited it. It keeps them in the conversation. Relevance. Speculation that at anytime they could be "back" because they've proven and it has been proven due to their location and surrounding talent that they could put together a run to the national title at any time. They have NFL guys all the time. It's a sleeping giant just waiting on the right coach to put the pieces together
It's all subjective, of course. It doesn't mean VT can't hire a coach better than the other 30 or so teams. It just means Whit has to sell it or else find a coach that thinks higher of the program than a random ESPN writer. The outcry of insulted fans on here is just proof of why college sports are so great. Our fan base, just like every other one, thinks it's school should be #1. The passion is great!
I think location is being overstated as a negative. While Blacksburg is fairly remote, the vast majority of college football players are going to be spending the vast majority of their time in the town where their college is located. While Blacksburg and other rural schools may not be for some kids, for most that isn't an issue. Being close to home is more commonly a factor and VT is close to a lot of talent in the mid-atlantic region. While it isn't the deep south, Florida, or Cali, there's still quite a bit of talent to be had in the region and a better situation than a lot of big 10 or even some big 12 teams who all have to jostle over the same limited talent pool.
Job attractiveness for a neutral party is based on available resources. Resources are based on revenue. VT does not generate revenue like a top 25 program. It just doesn't. Bigger stadiums, more alumni, longer history for other schools all account for that. Miami is the only exception because despite an administration that doesn't want athletics, they have the brightest shining moments of cfb history, which still holds solid weight nationally (look at their 2016 class, even if they don't all stick, kids still idolize the U) and an insane nfl pipeline. We don't have a mega booster like ok st or Oregon.
We've been overperforming our resources histprically. But we have the potential to securely land in the top 25 with the new facility, and whit willing to land a big fish. But I don't blame anyone questioning us, as we have no success outside of Beamer (see Ksu after Snyder left). But I trust whit
Tech should be ranked higher than Loserville (and maybe da U). Period.