The US Coast Guard is conducting search and rescue operations for an unidentified Virginia Tech student who fell overboard off a Carnival cruise ship.
Sad story. Hope for a miracle.
Forums:
DISCLAIMER: Forum topics may not have been written or edited by The Key Play staff.
Comments
Prayers for that person's safety.
Report sent Sunday that the student fell of the ship, three days pass and now the Coast Guard starting to looking. Kind of a big gap of time there.
Prayers for a miracle!
What gap?
They suspended the search after three days. Very unfortunate...
Joking aside, I hope this doesn't end as tragic as it looks now
I stand corrected and that is what I get for glancing over the article.
Still sad and very unfortunate.
Hoping for a miracle for a fellow Hokie.
Question though... Can someone who has actually been on a cruise tell me just how high the rails are on the decks? I've seen a few of these stories the past few years. As one who's never been, I just wonder how difficult it is to fall overboard.
My honeymoon was actually on this exact ship a few years ago. As I recall, the railings on the top deck were about 4 ft high. I'm not a tall guy, and the railings all came up to around the middle/bottom of my chest.
Yeah I seem to remember they were about chest high when I went on a cruise a few years ago
There is no standard height but most cruise ships are around 45" (3'9"). Some liners have gone higher and advocacy groups want 52" to be an international standard. Fact is that no matter how tall people are still gonna fall off. However, Carnival is somewhat infamous for people going overboard. What's even scarier is that there is no actual requirement for them to report these incidents nor any single body that they should report to. They call the coast guard, assist in the search for a time, and carry on.
Yikes...reason # 3,245 why I will NEVER go on a cruise.
I've been on several cruises.
You've got to work pretty hard to "fall" overboard. Generally people who fall were doing something stupid to begin with, or were otherwise "assisted" in their fall (read: foul play).
So I wouldn't let that scare you away.
I have been on a small cruise but it was in the Galapagos Islands and only for
4 nights. It was not a large ship either...100 person capacity including all staff.
I would just rather be on land in a nice beach house with my family instead of
the middle of the ocean and with thousands of strangers. It's just not my thing. :)
Also, Norovirus, power outages, and such.
To fall off you have to be doing something you shouldn't. OSHA code for railings on a working platform is 42", so the ships are above code. This height is set so that an average person who fell or tripped would not topple over the railing. Most industrial falls from platforms are due to someone standing on the middle or top rail, basically doing something wrong. I am not saying that is what happened here, I am just saying that the height of 45" is more than sufficient.
Would this be considered a "working platform"?
I have no idea what building code covers cruise ships. I was trying to shed some light on what is used in the manufacturing industry for a function that has a much higher risk of falling than a cruise ship. It really covers any balcony or walkway or platform higher than 4 ft in elevation.
There is no specific building code for cruise ships. Industry standards are more the norm.
The "working" decks of a cruise ship are the upper decks where on a cruise ship a lot of passengers are for entertainment. I definitely agree that the railing height should be sufficient and it takes some doing to go over.
To be fair to Carnival, they really did do everything they could to help find him. Per the Roanoke.com report:
They deviated 2 ships off their course, the Glory, from which the student fell, and the Ecstasy to assist the USCG for 24 hours after the search was called on. If you don't find the kid by then, you kind of have to leave the scene and tend to the thousands of other passengers on the ships so you don't encounter any delays, and you let the USCG take over. After all... that's what the USCG is there for.
All true, but Carnival has a very bad reputation for overboard incidents. You can see the statistics here: http://www.cruisejunkie.com/Overboard.html
They may have done the right thing in this instance but they have on too many occasions done the wrong thing.
I'd argue that the problem is less on the cruise line and more on the passenger there. Being on various different cruise lines, Carnival is the "fun" ship. The ship that is cheaper than a lot of their competition, which can occasionally go in line with some with poor judgment or those looking for a booze cruise. Combine those things and you can have more incidents. They also have a huge fleet which means more possibility for incidents. What should be looked at is percentage based upon the total number of voyages.
I just commented on this below. I agree with what you are saying, and also used the "fun" ship moniker, but being that they should have a much higher level of vigilance and technological awareness on overboard falls, which they do not. They do have a huge fleet and percentage based on number of voyages would dilute those numbers some, but that doesn't change the fact that they could/should be much better at monitoring and reacting to incidents. Overboard alarm systems, as mentioned below, is one way to do that.
Yes, but Carnival operates on a philosophy of high volume, low cost. Not sure what your experience is with the Disney cruise lines, but they are smaller ships with a higher cost per passenger. They are also a MUCH smaller fleet. So outfitting all of them with the latest technology is a much more straightforward venture and less costly than if Carnival were to do it. I agree that it should be there, but Carnival will look to maximize profits. So spending on something that is not required and where liability is mitigated through the "safety briefing" and waiver processes is not something you will see them do.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the reasons why Carnival is not doing it. What I am saying is their reasoning is BS and they are transferring that cost to every US citizen while in US waters. How? they are a Panamanian registered company that pays .9% in tax to the US government on $1.790 Billion net income when if they were a US company would be paying 35%. So they don't install systems that will enable them to rescue their own passengers swiftly and instead rely on the services of the USCG who must come running at any distress call scrambling helicopters, planes, boats, divers, etc all of which is paid for by you and me, not Carnival.
The cost of overboard systems per ship could be covered in the net revenue of a single voyage of each of Carnival's ships. A single voyage.
So yes you are right in Carnivals reasoning, and that makes Carnival even worse.
Yeah you've gotta be doing something to assist going over the rail. And if nobody sees it, when you hit the water, lots of times you get sucked under by the prop suction and into the propeller blades. If the crew can react fast enough they can take action to try to keep you from being blendered by the ship's screws.
I've been on two different Carnival ships. Both to go overboard, you'd have to climb on the rail or be physically lifted over by someone else. I realize it happens, but usually it's due to some drug/alcohol fueled stupidity (and no VT student would ever get drunk and do something stupid, eh?) or a suicide. Foul play is pretty rare and usually limited to spouses killing each other either before or after sending the victim tumbling overboard.
Lots of times, the fall height is rather high as well, and the poor person taking the dive will be incapacitated by the impact on the water surface.
As long as you exercise personal responsibility, there's nothing unsafe regarding the rails.
They have identified the student.
http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/new-river-valley/coast-guard-searching-f...
Apparently this kid was in the same major as me, never met him, but still...rough :(.
Per a statement from the family, the Coast Guard search was called off last night and the student is presumed dead. Memorial service details will be announced at a later time.
damn that sucks. What really gets me and why I am blatantly against Carnival is this line from the article:
Other Cruise Line companies, such as Disney, have integrated overboard monitors that detect falls off the sides of their ships. It immediately sounds an alarm and give the exact location of the fall. Carnival doesn't have the technology on a single ship, and being that they are the "fun" cruise ship where getting wasted off your ass is the norm they should have been first in line for it.
I know they have been sued for negligence in the past for this before. I think a woman fell over, was noticed by cameras and got rescued but only after crew convincing the Captain to turn around. Something like that.
Right. Because every business owner should lay out precious capex to protect people from every idiotic thing they may do while on the premises of the business owner. And also assume the implied liability therein if the system they install fails.
20 million people went on a cruise in 2012. 23 went overboard.
0.00000115 % of passengers will do something so stupid it drops them in the sea off a giant vessel with high railings and countless warnings about doing stupid things.
By all means, let's insist the cruise lines spend millions on surveillance systems that will hopefully cut the number of man overboard fatalities to an acceptable 0.000000575 % of all cruise passengers.
Seriously folks : what vanishingly small level of risk is it permitted for human beings to endure?
How many of those 23 were on Carnival cruises?
To be fair, that's one of those low occurrence, high impact type of risks. Yeah, you're super unlikely to go overboard, but if you do and there's no safety measures, you're immensely screwed.
so planes shouldn't be required to have life rafts, trains shouldn't be required to have brake overrides? just because it doesn't happen often statistically doesn't mean they shouldn't be required to have them.
you call this kid an idiot and dissolve the cruise company of any responsibility of it because it's statistically very low and requires some level of poor personal choices. yet carnival's promise is an unforgettable adventure of fun that includes nightly boozing, if you choose, where bartenders routinely serve until people are way beyond stupid drunk. then when one of those stupid drunk people does something stupid they put up their arms and say "not our fault". if that happens in the states and a bartender over serves someone who gets in their car and dies of a car accident, what happens? they could be liable for that as well as the business that employs them.
as stated above the costs of overboard incidents are passed on to the american tax payer to pay for USCG search and rescue, which is a significantly higher cost than these systems. Not to mention these systems have come down in price to be extremely competitive and a drop in the bucket for a company with 1.790 billion net revenue per year.
there is a reason why Carnival has more incidents than others, because they are the "fun" ship and promote that atmosphere of excess. i have nothing against that. i believe in personal responsibility for your choices. you get wasted and fall overboard then you should be responsible for that in some way, perhaps monetarily, just not with your life. the company should also be responsible for providing the venue and means for this to happen, and install a system that can rectify that issue immediately, and not transfer those costs to me as a tax payer.
if you're on a big cruise ship and fall overboard from the top deck, you are more than likely going to die. it doesn't matter if the crew knows immediately, you are falling from at least 3 stories, if not more
from top deck it's a lot more, and yes that will usually result in only one outcome. yet, people are rescued alive every year. That number would increase with proper systems in place. But let's say the person is dead, there should still be the presumption of life, and they could still retrieve the body and give families piece of mind.
I'm not calling him an idiot. I'm saying that most people who fall from boats have done something stupid, and he was probably no different, as callous as that sounds. We are all human, and all subject to the occasional bout of bad judgement.
Lots of very smart people do all sorts of stupid things. I've done my share, and while my smarts may be open to debate, my youth is a case study of stupid acts that could have gotten me injured or killed.
That said, I wouldn't demand that the gov't mandate things like handrails at the Cascades dropoff, or safety nets at the bottom of every climbable rock formation on the AT.
People take risks. Often stupid ones.
Regarding the cost of Search and Rescue to the taxpayer - that cost is already baked into the budget, in no small part because Search and Rescue is one of the explicit purposes of the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard's budget is not going to be noticeably impacted because some microscopically small percentage of people fall off a cruise ship. They spend far more resources on people needing rescue on far smaller vessels. Would you require those smaller vessels to incorporate automated systems as well?
I feel sorry for this young man and his friends & family. But I just don't see how any liability can be applied to the ship. People will always find new and innovative ways to get themselves killed. It could be argued that the constant drive to minimize any and all risks leads directly to people having an exaggerated sense of safety.
A friend of mine once joked that if you want people to drive better, instead of seat belts and airbags, cars should be fitted with a sharp metal spike in middle of the steering wheel. As silly as it sounds, there's some merit to the idea. If you are aware of a clear and present danger as a consequence of questionable actions, you are less likely to incur those consequences.
It shouldn't matter how Carnival advertises themselves, so long as those advertisements don't include drunken passengers spider-climbing between balconies or otherwise implying that it's safe to do patently unsafe things around railings separating you from a dropoff that, from the age of first comprehension, are clear signs to everyone: DANGER.
This really hit us hard here too, as he went to nearby Deep Run H.S. The local news said he had a job offer recently, as well.
Thoughts and prayers to his loved ones and friends in their time of need.
Unbelievably sad. I hope the family is able to find some peace despite this tragedy.
It's sad and I'm sorry for his family and friends.
I will say though that there is a reason you sign a waiver releasing a cruise line from all liability in the event of your demise when you go to sea. There are risks going to sea. You knowingly take them when you go to sea. And it's your own responsibility to not do anything stupid while you're at sea. And if you do, it's your responsibility to suffer the consequences.
One the big issues I see in a lot of people these days is in general an attitude that they can do whatever, regardless of risk, and if they get in trouble, they will be bailed out by someone else. A lot of people hazard themselves in dumb ways and then refuse to accept they brought the consequences on themselves and learn from it. My recently ex-girlfriend's kids are a prime example. The idiots refuse to wear coats to school. Then stay after without telling anyone they are doing it. Then expect to be picked up based on a call to us when they are done. Oh wait, I'm at work. Oh wait, their mom was at work an hour away. They repeatedly ended up stuck in the cold without proper warm clothing. I got so I wouldn't go until my work day ended. Picked up a frozen kid popsicle each time. And the idiots would just complain about being stuck out and not being picked up in a timely manner. No matter how much you told 'em that you can't just drop everything for their convenience without prior planning, they refused to stop. There was one night I had plans to meet a friend, so ended up leaving the kid there to wait for her mom. Mom didn't get there until after 9pm. Kid was stuck out in 33 deg. F temps wearing gym shorts and a t-shirt. And the next day wore the same sort of get up again. Another one went on a weekend field trip to a place two hours away in Athens without telling us where she was going. The kids had been told they had to arrange their own rides home (which was sh!tty of the school, but it was how it was). So we get a call from a kid stuck 120 miles from home with no ride. She didn't even get her mom to sign a permission slip for the trip, and the school let her on the bus (her mom dropping her off without asking about a slip was a rather dumb move too).
But the overall point is some people are just determined to risk their well being for a host of idiotic reasons. In my experience it's a lot more than one out of a million of us too. So the fact that the rate of one in a million passengers on a cruise ship going overboard is lower than the total idiot rate in the general population by a long shot shows me that you have to be really really dumb to "accidentally" end up in the drink on a cruise ship. To me, it's really more of a "negligent" as opposed to "accidental" incident, where the "victim" is the negligent one.
I suspect many of the "accidental" man overboards on cruise lines are the same sort of thing. They are acting foolish and drunk, pull a Leonardo king of the world stunt, the ship takes an ackward roll, and over they go. They know what can and will happen at some point. They do it anyway.
And that ladies and gents is nature's way of weeding out the really dumb ones.