@VTSandsman If you truly stand against gender-based violence, call out @VT_Football on their disgusting behavior at #TakeBackTheNight .— Adam Oganowski (@Sockadoo) March 27, 2015
@Sockadoo @VT_Football We are investigating. If you were there and you would like to report, send to president@vt.edu— Timothy D Sands (@VTSandsman) March 27, 2015
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Almost comes across as a challenge rather than a request.
Edit: referring to the original tweet, not Dr. Sands reply.
I really wish someone besides people on Twitter would say something about what happened. While the likely event was not that big a deal, social media can blow things up.
Whit has already apologized to those who wrote in to the athletic department about this, and he is holding an open discussion about it on Tuesday. I think he handled the situation really well.
Thanks for sharing this. I am pleased to see that there will be (or to some extent, already has been) an immediate response by those in charge. Disrespect will not, and should not, be tolerated, especially in such an important event.
Very disappointing if our players acted out of line.
The meeting location has been announced: GLC Multi-purpose room, 7:00 pm, Tuesday 3/31
odds on protestors?
Protesters? On a college campus? Vegas wouldn't even put odds on something that sure of halpenong
Edit: that last word is supposed to be happening, but halpenong is such a fantabulous auto correct that I'm leaving it
" These, Tom, are the Causeheads. They find a world-threatening issue and stick with it for about a week."
The sad part is that I read the whole post without realizing that the last word was completely misspelled...If I hadn't read your edit I never would have noticed
A Google search turned this up. It sounds like whoever wrote this already had a thing against the football team.
http://www.womanspace.org.vt.edu/wordpress/?page_id=7
There was also an article written by someone who claims to be a VT student, where he/she called out Beamer, the football team and the atheltic dept.
https://twitter.com/blacksheep_vt/status/581563880742236161
Does seem like this person has been waiting for a while to have a reason to go after Beamer and the program.
Okay that was pretty irritating to read. And I'll leave it at that.
I wish there was more room for discourse and less room for name calling when things like this happen.
It definitely seems like that person has it out for the football program. This could be the athletics vs academics fight bubbling over into something else. I am going to hold off making any judgements until Pres. Sands has time to sort through what really happened and not just what people are squaking about on Twitter.
I don't know what happened, but if I wanted an accurate account, I wouldn't rely on any article from The Blacksheep.
Shoot, if I wanted a five-year-olds account of what happened I wouldn't even check The Blacksheep.
Shoot. This was the link I wanted, not the one I posted
football team vs. feminist group. The group probably views the football team as their natural born enemy just because it's a rough and tough macho man sport. I wasn't there, so I don't know what exactly went down, but I just get the feeling they just naturally don't get along with sports guys, therefore nit-picking everything they do
Generalizing all feminists as anti-male, anti-guys, anti-sports....let's just not, and say we didn't.
You need to go and read the entry on the blog from that particular group. In this instance, with this group, it looks like he's spot on.
From the Womanspace blog, or The Black Sheep? I didn't see anything of that sort on link to the Womanspace blog (if there was anything, please quote it, maybe I'm on a cached page or something).
Printed pages of The Black Sheep aren't even worth wiping your ass with, so whatever gossip and BS they spout is completely worthless IMO.
Blackshheep
Regardless, OP was making speculation, unsourced, on what a feminist group felt about the football team. It didn't add to the conversation and seemed to flirt with the community guidelines. What we know is that some people took exception to the behavior of our football team at an event. We don't need to launch into immediately discrediting the opinions of those leveling the accusations. I have confidence in Dr Sands to separate bias from fact and take whatever, if any, action is appropriate.
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly but if BlackSheep wants us to take their accusations seriously and want others to act in a civil manner, they must at least pretend to be somewhat civil and not predisposed to a negative vitrol spewing POV themselves.
I'm all for even handedness but I require similar treatment from ALL participants.
Imagine if I'd made a post here with similar language and tone that BlackSheep used in their post. I'd be blurred out in less than 5 minutes.
And rightfully so. That article was trash from a journalistic standpoint. But Blacksheep is just a rag covering the allegations. As for the group of students affiliated with Take Back the Night who took exception to the behavior of football players at the event, we don't know anything about any inherent bias they might harbor, except for some word of mouth accounts that some of the people saying they were very disruptive are also people who attend and cheer loudly at football games.
Are there some people who have a hidden agenda against the football team? Doubtlessly. Does any person who would self-identify as a feminist? No. Does every person complaining about the behavior of our football team? I highly doubt it.
I know this is a serious topic and whatnot, but I just couldn't resist
But seriously, abuse and mistreatment of all humans (and mammals) is no laughing matter
But fuck amphibians.
LOL
When and how did I generalize that ALL feminist are anti-male? I'm looking at this article and I see personal shots against Beamer, Babcock, and players that have nothing to do with their actions at the event. It seems like to me that this person and members of this group had a pre-existing hatred towards VT football. I get that those in attendance may have acted rude, but that doesn't warrant some of these personal shots.
I think that caught up in this whole discussion I (and many of us) have gotten mixed up over which group we're talking about at any given time. When you said "the group" I thought you meant the TBTN group, not The Black Sheep.
-The Black Sheep (or at least the person who wrote that article) looks to have a pre-existing hatred towards VT Football.
-The TBTN group does not, and nothing The Black Sheep says should be considered the voice of the actual people who ran the event, were offended by what happened, etc.
So I did I take your original statement the wrong way, because I thought you were generalizing the thoughts of the TBTN group, not The Black Sheep. I don't really think that the "rough and macho man" aspect of football is why The Black Sheep dislikes the team, though.
But let's also note that, in the past, the Take Back the Night has taken on a less than inclusive role towards males of the species.
Those that remember this must be given that leeway, it's up to the TBTN people, who do have a decent message, to recover from past poor execution.
I was probably using the term "group" wrong. I don't really know what the black sheep website would be classified as. I still have not seen anything published from TBTN "group" so I was just basing my comment on the black sheep comments
That guy Adam's twitter page has him describing himself as an "aspiring feminist," whatever that means (you either are or are not one).
Thats a hell of a life goal for a man
I wonder how his procedure went. Not well, apparently.
Had a nice long conversation via facebook with some friends still in the 'burg yesterday who were there. It comes down to #sources saying that guys were on their phones, chatting to each other, not clapping for speakers, and joking around. Of course none of this has been backed by anything even approaching evidence that they were doing anything overtly wrong. In fact, the girl who runs Take Back the Night at Tech knew nothing about this until the day after. And, according to none other than Shai McKenzie, they did in fact leave early, but he says they were given permission to leave at any time, especially if they felt uncomfortable. There's nothing to back up the rather extreme claims made against the team, and the situation should be blown over by Monday.
Don't underestimate the power political correctness has these days. If you even remotely act "offensive" to a couple of people, the whole thing can get blown out of proportion. Obviously, I don't know what exactly happened, but regardless, people (especially college kids) can get very sensitive to certain causes these days and next thing you know, a harmless little disagreement or something that might be a little immature at a small level, can become a huge story on social media, which then gets repeated by the actual media.
Ain't that the truth. (Social media please don't hurt me)
This makes it sound even more like the original twitter poster has it out for the team. They make it sound like the team was being deliberately insensitive to the rally.
Your post sounds like the normal inattentiveness that happens everyday in class. That is, by far, the more likely of the two scenarios (also the one I hope is true) and there is a huge difference between them.
Either way, I will reserve judgment until more than a disgruntled twitter post comes to light.
Edit: Was typing faster than brain was processing last night. Twitter post should be read Blacksheep post.
I'd say it's different from class, in that at least you have a choice with classes. Having been forced to attend many mandatory events through the corps while at Tech, I can say that requiring attendance at an event in which a person has no interest is sure to breed some degree of rebellion. Just because my butt has to be in a specific seat doesn't mean that I'm not going to text or converse with my friends. On top of this is the fact that many of us would be extremely uncomfortable in that setting, and so it would be entirely understandable to try to distance oneself mentally. Of course these guys could have put on a much better display, but at the same time, given the sensitive nature of the event, it should only be attended by those who want to be there and fully participate.
I get that the players were likely required to be there when they didn't want to, but it's really not asking much of them to be respectful for an hour during this event. Treat it like one of your classes. Texting is somewhat rude but ultimately acceptable, but chatting with your friends during these presentations and getting up and leaving are completely ridiculous.
Based on the post below, I'm inclined to agree that actual, full volume talking is way out of line. Getting up and leaving is not, in and of itself, disrespectful, because these events can be very uncomfortable. Leaving en masse would be extremely disruptive and it's hard to believe that that large a group felt that uncomfortable at the exact same moment. Though I am curious as to what was said by the speaker in the moments before the team left, because there is always the small chance that it did in fact make all of them uncomfortable.
I just talked to a family member who was at Take Back The Night. I didn't mention to her any of the allegations listed in the tweets or conversations above, just asked for her full recollection of the evening. In full disclosure, she has gleefully cheered on VT Football since I entered school in 2007, and does not hold any ill-will or grudges against the program. What she told me:
-A few (not most, or all) of the football players were talking loudly, but it was distracting enough to keep others from hearing or concentrating on the presentations. Other players were laughing loudly and further distracting everyone.
-Most of the team left during a presentation when there was ~10 minutes left in the entire event.
-I asked on a scale of 1-10 how much of a distraction the team was, and she said somewhere between 7-8.
I understand that the players were likely forced by their coaches or the athletic administration to attend the event, but it is outright embarrassing the way they acted, even if only 10% of this is true.
Take Back The Night's mission:
That's not just feminism, that's basic human rights. If you can't get behind that, get the damn hell away from Virginia Tech, The Key Play, the USA, and the Earth.
Wanted to say that a friend of mine who went to the event was talking to me about it earlier today, and corroborated all of your points.
Sounds like they were just being loud and disrespectful. I can understand if they were forced to go but they also have to understand there are sometimes you have to do something and you just sit and shut up. If I was the coaches, I would make them run wind sprints up and down the field until they wanted to puke just for being stupid, immature kids.
whoa, I haven't read or seen anything that deserves such a condemnation. They were rude and they were disrespectful. That's nothing to be proud of and something they should be spoken to about, but this is an extremely hyperbolic overreaction as are the attempts at public shaming on twitter. And leaving early isn't an issue, it's leaving loudly. Anyone, including football players, are allowed to come and go from those events as they please. It wasn't a walkout protest by any means.
If they were chanting something against the event or its purpose, I would understand this level of vitriol. Until that fact comes to light and there is some reason to keep anyone the damn hell away from anything this is nothing more than young men being disrespectful. Nothing more. Let's not make it anything more than that.
If Shai was one of the leading causes then he needs a more severe lesson than the rest of them. Specifically I would require him to do something like community service at the local woman's shelter or something that would give him more of an eye opening. But I haven't read where he was yet.
And just to put it out there I am willing to bet money that I have done more for women's rights than almost anyone on TKP.
Things like this demand more perspective and less antagonistic blaming. There are more ways to bring something to light than public posturing, shaming and bluster. Try asking the athletic department to require those players to help in the cause to learn more about it. Public damnation is the very end of discourse, not the beginning.
So what have you done for women's rights?
Not being a d!ck but curious now that you made this claim.
No worries. It's expected. It's a big claim.
A few things being: I was a rape counselor for 6 years. I have helped organize many events on the subject. The company I own currently sponsors an orphanage for abused girls and has raised/donated money for several others. I advocate for woman's rights here in China/Asia which is tricky and risky politically sometimes.
I don't mean for that to come off as douchey as it may appear just to curtail any notion that I don't know much about the subject to say that football players being disrespectful at Take Back the Night shouldn't be taken as more than just that, disrespect. My point being is that I have yet to read anything that proves they were more than that, and nothing that comes close to saying they were openly against or rallying against the topic. Rude, yes. Fighting against the cause, not so much.
I have been at events that have been interrupted by police, threats of violence, government people shutting it down, etc. That is something to publicly shame and condemn. This is something to use as a lesson for these young men.
Thank you for the background info. Appreciate the work you have done.
Thank you for all you've done to support women's rights.
I came off very strong because TBTN is something I'm passionate about, having attended in the past. The event is not "down with men" like it apparently used to be, more like "this is the standard women should be treated by, and we're not going to accept anything less".
In the grand scheme of things, no, this isn't a horrible huge thing, it just really bums me out that players were so disrespectful when plenty of them could have learned something about how to treat women (and I'm not saying that as anything backhanded at the team, lots of guys could use a woman's perspective on this subject). I wish whoever decided their attendance was mandatory laid some ground rules and expectations so a positive experience would have been had by all.
In line with the last sentence, I think it would have been better if they were highly encouraged to attend, but not outright mandated. Would've made them a lot more receptive I think.
I totally agree with what you are saying here. It's an opportunity lost in every way so far. But hopefully not lost entirely.
However, I have found that the best way to convert those that are uninterested is precisely not by publicly shaming them. Like many opportunities, they present themselves when something doesn't go exactly to plan. This happened. Is it the end of the opportunity? No, so we shouldn't make it so by turning our rhetoric up to nuclear. As soon as that happens you can be sure your converting those young men against supporting your cause.
appreciate the good work you and others are doing though.
This has been a problem developing since the internet exploded in the 2000s and has infiltrated almost every moderately touchy subject. Everyone can surround themselves with people who think and have the same opinions as they do. People have gotten isolated from differing opinions and instead of explaining and discussing they just roll their eyes call the person a bigot and then go to their forum or subreddit and talk about that person and have everyone reaffirm their stance.
Instead of acknowledging that everyone comes from different walks of life, family situations, and cultures then trying to educate people about what they believe and listening to what the other person has to say most people get antagonistic and they further polarize each other. It's especially bad when you have a middle of the road opinion on anything as it causes you to just stop caring about the issue or jump onto one of the extremes.
Groupthink has always been a problem in human culture, the internet has just facilitated it. Which is really sad, because we know have the ability to educate ourselves on every conceivable subject using the same tool people are using to form mutual admiration societies.
He's referring to the mission of Take Back the Night, not the actions of the football team.
yeah, I know, but the paragraph before the mission statement makes it read like the football players are in fact not behind it and therefore should be kept damn hell away. Perhaps I am reading that wrong. I hope I am. +1 though for bringing it up to make some clarity.
Haha, seriously, we are talking about how the social media like twitter can blow something out of proportions, but thekeyplay is social media too. And some here seem to have a flair for the dramatic.
Just because my crown has slipped does not mean I'm no longer a drama queen.
So, as I understand it, Take Back The Night and all of the other events that have gone on this week are, at least in part, to teach people that it's ok to talk about this stuff. As part of their mission to "end sexual assault, etc..." half the struggle is getting victims to come forward. I don't want to get into a debate about how many accusations that get made are true; that debate is for another time and place and, frankly, irrelevant.
If the point is to get people to come forward and share their stories about what happened to them, then I'm sure people can understand how even a small group of people in the back laughing and making jokes can be incredibly disruptive and, more to the point, discouraging. I don't think this is necessarily a vendetta against the athletic department (Blacksheep aside, but it's the Blacksheep, what do you expect?). People at the event would have been pissed if ANYONE was being disrespectful and disruptive. The fact that it was the football team, the thing that we take pride in and want to be in the national spotlight for good reasons (winning games), does make it worse because these guys representation of the university doesn't stop when they leave the field. Even if it was required of them, even if it was only a few of them, members of the team were completely disrespectful at a public event and they should be called out on that.
I'm not making myself very clear and I'm not exactly sure how best to do that so I'll just leave it at that. Anyway, go Hokies
Edit:
I've taken down most of this post as it's not really appropriate for this forum.
I'll leave up the summary so people can grasp a bit of the jist of it.
Also, let me add, this is not a taboo topic. DO NOT be bashful about it, that's an order.
The myth that men are the abusers is just that. A myth, but let a 210lb athlete complain of abuse and watch the world laugh.
Ok, gotta get off this soapbox and simply state that when I tried to get in with groups like this, they were not welcoming, I was the problem, not the face of the problem, it doesn't fit the bill.
I apologize, I tried to stay away from this but could not.
edit: I know it's editorializing but were any of the speakers that day males whom were victims of abuse?
+1 for having the guts to tell your story Egbert. It's not an easy thing for most abused men to do that.
Those that do not fit the normal demographics of the "abused" such as fit and muscular male athletes, are far from helpless but have some significant difficulties trying to get the assistance that the law and social norms provide.
The frustrating thing is that the pervasive attitude prevents a certain type of strong person, male and female, from recognizing that's actually what is happening and questioning your own judgement for a long time. When one seeks help, it's shrugged (laughed really) away.
Notice I say person, not male, not female. Strong person.
The whole thing should be inclusive but, that's not the narrative that wants told.
On the same note however, for one of those big burly athletes to get dropped in the slammer would have been for her to create some bruise somewhere and blame it on the abused. It's why you'll see me play the skeptic so many times on every damn issue. People are blind to thinking physical power is the only power that exists.
I have no tolerance for groups like BlackSheep as portrayed in that post.
Try to come out and correct the message or not genuflect in their general direction and you get labeled as the scum of the earth when you are just trying to correct the record in order to address the real problem instead of the narrative.
edit: depersonalized the wording in this a bit too.
And one of the main problems is mental illness. Abuse, stalking...what can we do as a concerned society to mitigate the effects?
Don't apologize, +1000 for sharing if I could.
This x1000.
My roommates were in attendance at TBTN. They said that there were people in the audience that made what was supposed to be a safe space to talk about incredibly difficult topics feel unsafe. The only reason they knew it was the football team was that groups were announced at the beginning and the players stood up and cheered when VT football was called.
It's not easy to recount experiences of sexual assault, and having a rude and disrespectful group in the audience makes it even harder.
I have faith in Mr. Babcock to handle this appropriate. I wasn't there, knew nothing of this until reading this post. If people were out of line, I'm sure they will be disciplined. If its a lot of smoke, it will be handled appropriately. Every decision has been correct, no need to doubt him now.
This thread is getting awful close to discussion of politics.
It sounds like the players were definitely out of line, and its just more embarrassing than anything. Im sure they didnt wanna be there, but u gotta sit down and shut up. But, really, how much of an effect on abuse, sexual assault etc does a meeting like this have? If u dont have those values and morals by the time u get to college, that crowd is not gonna teach it to u. I dont think the team's actions were exaggerated, but any football team would act about the same if forced to attend something they dont feel like they need to hear.
Disappointed to hear this. How hard is it to stfu and listen? This is the downside of having a very young team. Too wrapped up in themselves to see the big picture. Not realizing how hard it is to shake a stereotype or rebuild their reputations.
I wasn't there last night so I don't know what happened. But I was there for the first "take back the night" at Virginia Tech back in `93. I remember it starting peacefully and a great purpose but by the time the group got to the upper quad and the military dorms it was chanting "down with men, men are pigs".
If anything similar happened last night, I don't blame the players with wanting to leave early.
There were similar occurrences in the early 2000s when I was there..
So let me get this straight... There was a large function where a large group in attendance was forced to be there, and that large group, made up of mostly underclassmen were being not exactly mature through the process, and we're supposed to be outraged and shocked by this?
Sounds to me like it was normal immature behavior for a group of male underclassmen. Unless they caused physical harm, or actively went out of their way to disrupt, I don't really see the story here.
Sounds like in the larger scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. But it's not good when the most visible individuals at your university act like children at a function to raise awareness for a sensitive issue.
A student was offended by something/someone/everything?.....Shocking!
You know, this is bad and embarrassing for the football team, but when I read the title I expected something much, much worse.
From the sounds of it, the football team was disrespectful, but I don't know if "disgusting" would be how I would describe the behavior.
Let me be clear, I think the team should be taken to task for any immature behavior at a function such as this, but the original tweet seems to offer the combination of someone with a bone to pick and a convenient target to draw attention in the form of the VT football team. Sensational reactions on social media are not the best way to begin a rational discourse on topics that certainly merit serious discussion.
Shame on the team for not showing proper respect, but the details seem to suggest something that is a far cry from them actually seeming to be "pro sexual abuse/assault"
In my opinion, true feminism seeks not to denigrate males, but to empower females.
Too bad that it sounds like some folks at that function may have behaved in such a way that they perpetuate stereotypes we could all do without.
I believe there are places like church, classrooms, the movies, even, where the best place for cell phones is in your pocket. And if you cannot give a speaker at a public event/forum the respect of silence, then leave quietly and let those more interested have their experience. It's called manners, folks, those pesky behaviors your mom and dad should have taught you before you get to the University.
I don't know anything about this issue other than what has been posted in this thread, so I may not be clear on all the facts, but two things immediately came to mind while reading about this:
1. Why are football players required to attend an event like this but not even one coach is required to attend? (I'm assuming no coaches were there because I would like to think these alleged shenanigans wouldn't have occurred if one was present).
2. Why should anyone be REQUIRED to attend a sensitive event such as this that could make him/her feel uncomfortable? This kind of thing should strictly be voluntary only imo.
I'm guessing the requirement to attend comes from the National overreaction right now that has the mindset that all male athletes are potential rapists and domestic violence perpetrators who can't help themselves. There are regional pushes right now to have all male athletes take courses and classes in high school saying how domestic violence is bad, so I'm guessing requiring the football team to attend this event was following in line with what other national initiatives are trying to do so that they don't get labeled as supporters of domestic violence.
This is probably accurate, and it seems similar to the SAPR training given to junior enlisted in the Navy due to the military's sexual assault problems. Having sat through that training twice, it was about 75% "rape is bad, don't do it." The problem with that is that that concept seems pretty inherent. No one is out there like "rape isn't so bad" and then that training just makes them realize, "oh I guess rape is bad after all." People who realize rape is wrong get almost nothing out of that, and the dirtbags who perpetrate those crimes aren't going to change their mind because of an hour of training. Much more effective is the SAPR-L training given to Chiefs and officers, which focuses on creating an appropriate climate where these things happen less, as well as a strong focus on bystander intervention.
If they were mandated to go, then perhaps the coaches could have been in attendance as well. The behavior probably would not have occurred. You send out mixed messages by telling these guys to go or that it is important and then you don't attend yourself. I'm sure it wasn't anything that was deliberately offensive that they did sounds like immature reaction to what can sometimes be an uncomfortable discussion.
I don't think it's particularly important what the event was for, or that the players were required to go to it. If you attend a lecture, or event, or anything where other people are trying to pay attention, don't do anything disruptive and distracting. It's rude. If someone sitting in front of you at the movies was texting and chatting with their friend the entire time, wouldn't you be a little upset?
Now, disruptive behavior certainly doesn't warrant being called a "f***ing asshole" by a tabloid, but texting, chatting, and walking out of an event is disruptive behavior and rude.
Holy crap that blacksheep article was hyperbolic...never will click on another article from their website again, no better than your common internet troll
They really, really aren't. Heck, the article pissed me off and I'm (to a much lesser extent than some) on their side. Blacksheep articles like this really make me hate that publication.
I spoke to a football player who was at the event and this was blown way out of proportion. They were mostly just uncomfortable because of some things said by speakers, but were never disrespectful. When they left, the stories were over and the march was about to begin, which they could not attend, so the team chaplain, who had escorted them, told the team to leave. That's it.
I hope this is how it played out, purely for selfish reasons. Also, to hopefully shed a little light on how easily things are exaggerated.
I'm gonna leave it at this: a bunch of college students who also happen to be football players (keep in mind, these are still kids) were forced to go to something they didn't want to go to, they got bored, began chatting, and left when the event was nearing its end. This led to an obvious hater of the football team raising hell about it. Obviously the players should have shown more respect, regardless of their interest, or lack thereof, but I'm sure it does not warrant such namecalling as one of the above articles had. If you ordered a group of any college boys to attend an event they weren't planning on attending otherwise, I'm sure 90% of them would behave the same way.
To prove this, simply drop by any Corps Lab on a Thursday afternoon, or better yet, the Cutchins Lecture. Especially when the speaker is, hypothetically of course, a washed up New York Knick turned Senator who's entire spiel sounds like he's stumping for votes. Or a former secretary of education who talks for 20 minutes about how marijuana is the devil. Or a lifelong bureaucrat who spends her entire hour and a half talking about how to succeed as a woman in a leadership role, apparently oblivious to the fact that 90% of her audience have Y chromosomes.
Many underestimate the role athletics plays in sexual assault. The facts are, and I work in this realm, that assaults are committed more, statistically speaking, by athletes, than by almost ALL other groups of men.
I'm a former VT athlete. I'm also currently working at the college level on a project developing an advertising and communications campaign to bring awareness and encourage a culture where this sort of thing happens less often. I work with experts of all sorts on this subject on a daily basis.
Besides my current position of work, as an athlete I saw some things. All athletes, when I started at VT, were given a week of education regarding the laws and rules of sexual assault, and how to avoid situations/prevent situations regarding sexual assault. This was after the Vick thing, so it was very thorough.
In my observation, it did little to curb the culture that athletes engage in perpetuating the phenomenon. And this is largely because none of us took it seriously. The very problem with this current sitaution. Whatever you hear in news stories and rumors on campus, assault happens far more than you hear. It happens on EVERY campus. More than most will ever know. In my time there, I had knowledge of such happenings and personal connections to both victims and the accused than most would believe. The thing is, most every athlete could say the same. For whatever reasons, hyper masculinity or whatever, the problem exists in the culture of collegiate athletics. The stories I know would make anyone's skin crawl. But this is not the forum for that.
I was made to attend marches as mandatory by not just our coach, but the athletic department, and though I have no history of adding to the problem, I find no excuse for behavior that detracts from solving it. Not being the problem does not excuse athletes from being part of the solution. Compared to what athletes are USUALLY forced to do, this is a cake walk. As a population that is often connected to the problem at hand, being asked to be respectful during an event where victims talk about deeply personal and hurtful stories is not asking much.
Do I believe they were as awful as portrayed? I doubt it. Do I believe that someone that uses the event as a way to connect and cope with an awful experience in their life will look at that behavior in a light less favorable than ones committing it? Absolutely, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable response for those that truly committed to the event.
Young men rarely take events like that seriously. And I get that, but holding them accountable for their immature behavior in a public forum is also a perfectly reasonable response to curb behavior that is unacceptable by today's standards.
However large or small, the culture of athletics is a very large contributor to sexual assault. To say otherwise is wrong, and to exonerate this behavior as "understandable" is signing up to keep this culture going.
This is only for college populations. The Benedict/Crosset Study shows a disproportionate rate amongst athletes and other "groups of men" like fraternities. Their study was from 1991 to 1993 and every recent study still uses it as the foundation study, as does the NCAVA. It also suggests that white males are much more likely than any other type of male. However, the criticism of it is that it is relatively small sample pool (107 cases on 30 D1 campuses), doesn't take into account any contributing circumstances like alcohol, drugs, etc., and doesn't answer whether being assaulted by an athlete results in a greater propensity to report over being a non-athlete. In fact, it is believed that most non-reported cases are those where the victim is very familiar with the offender and therefore feels pressure to not make waves amongst family, friends, etc. I have no idea what the results would be if it did take all these into account but it's important to note the faults in this study as much as use it for reference.
The sad fact is that awareness training on college aged men has little affect until those young men are faced with such an issue. I have never seen anything that shows that athletes are somehow above the norm on this.
this is true, in fact 30 - 50% of assaults depending on population statistic area taken go unreported. Add technological abuse like "dick pics" etc and it rises significantly. (phrasing!)
Forcing anyone, athletes or otherwise, to attend things they are not otherwise eager to do has very little success. This is proven way beyond the issues of sexual assault. Logically an otherwise disinterested party is less likely to absorb and empower the message being spoken. That's basic human psychology. Those attending should have been more respectful, sure. But again this doesn't mean they automatically are pro-assault. It simply means they were disrespectful. It isn't much to ask and they should be disciplined but simply being an athlete doesn't mean they must be at these events and even if at said events be engaged in them. And if they were in fact told they could leave by the chaplain as was stated above the issue is not leaving, it's leaving loudly.
So let me ask you, do you think the tweets above about "disgusting behavior" and the article in BlackSheep is perfectly reasonable? TakeBackTheNight was started as an empowerment to show solidarity on college campuses against a common problem and raise awareness through open dialogue. Those behind these responses are in effect using abuse as a weapon by playing a social shaming card, which I find the height of irony when they purport themselves to be fighting against abuse. You know what would have been a better use of the opportunity provided by this incident? A measured, level headed response to state that the actions of those players in attendance was found to be disrespectful and asking for those players to come participate in something that is more personal and not an event with a crowd, because like with most things and most people until you come face to face with it you have almost zero incentive to do anything about it. Using this as a way to get athletes more involved through discourse would speak volumes and perhaps create an advocate out of one of them, instead you have "supporters" using aggression as the means to convey the message. Brilliant. Way to subvert the message and ensure that those athletes will remain on the other side of the issue.
I don't believe anyone is exonerating anyone, because I have yet to read a clear factual account. Both sides are biased. I wasn't at the event, but there are many things that can be understood about what happened if people stop shouting for damnation and start asking for a chance to educate.
Ok, so let me understand this.
A flawed study from 20 years ago, a generation, is being used as a hammer to pound society into thinking the male athletes of today are the source of abuse? From my experience I wholeheartedly reject the conjecture and now I know the crumbling thread of a pedestal it sits upon.
They studied only 30 D1 schools and concluded this is society? 107 cases?
Why am I not surprised then that it came to the conclusions it did?
Let me conjecture a bit. I assume they are looking at cases of reported abuse.
Case 1
A male drops trousers in the presence of a number of women.
A female drops trousers in the presence of a number of men.
Which one(s) draw the complaint of abuse?
Second case.
A male punches a woman.
A female punches a man.
Which one(s) draw the complaint of abuse?
I am not making excuses for either, I am not saying one is more right than the other. I am condoning nor supporting any of it. I am simply asking the question to generate thought. Call it an exploration of the Socratic method.
To answer a bit, it was a very well researched study despite it's small sample pool but as with every study it has it's faults. That shouldn't mean it's baseless. yes it was done a long time ago but as I said more recent studies have found similar results and so everything still refers back to this foundation research. Nothing has statistically changed in that time.
The cases they looked at specifically were cases of reported sexual assault on campuses. Specifically looking at men sexually assaulting women, but if I remember correctly it does have some stats on women assaulting men.
Thank you for your response.
To make sure I'm clear, surveys of reported cases of sexual assault on college campuses show that sexual assault (not just rapes) are predominantly reported of male athletes (or was it athletes in general).
Can we get a definition then of sexual assault?
Are there any assumptions for reporting levels? Any demographic for under reported? Assumptions for corrections to data?
Any attempts to correlate data with instances where rapes or assaults might be reported more consistently? - cases where the report would be more likely and/or people under supervision such as teachers with minor students? or assaults on military personnel.
I know some numbers have come out on that and the number of assaulted military personnel exceed the number of females in the military (or the branch that did the study, can't remember off the top of my head) which leads one to the understanding that there are a significant number of non-females assaulted. Keep in mind, these were not numbers of assaults by military members on other military, it's civilians on military included.
I just think studies of college campuses as sampling reports, is not conclusive of campuses or society as a whole but gets discussed as if it is.
I would say I have an above average memory recall but you might be stretching my ability to remember everything about that study. I will say I have read a lot of material and many a research on the topic and this is not something that should be discounted. I recommend reading it or others if you have the interest.
None of that means anything to the VT football players though, which is the point of the discussion.
Thanks for the discussion, Fernley.
Let me add one small thing.
As a coach of young children's sports teams, I was required to take a class on abuse.
While the information in the class and accompanying movie were largely correct, I was disheartened by the real message was that adults need to protect ourselves from the very opportunity to be seen as an abuser. For those that read my earlier posts, fit that into your head.
You see adults struggling to find ways to avoid being alone with children that are not their own. I see parents not comprehending this. They are late picking their kids from practice, 2 coaches or an aware parent and coach stay the extra couple minutes so 1 does not stand alone with them. You can see the unspoken communication between them and the "I'll stay and keep you company."
I find myself in the spot of preemptively defending myself against the threat of a false or mistaken accusation of an abuser.
This innocence has been robbed from us by the easy ability to accuse and be labeled before trial.
Been trying to think of something intelligent to add to this...
But only coming up with one conclusion about the correct response......
You chose...
...wisely.
I was at the event and saw no offensive or disrespectful things that the football team or individual players did. The football team left after the personal testimonies and before the march (which is important to note that it was canceled due to heavy rains and lightening). Although I sat near the front and was several rows in front of the team, I didn't witness any inappropriate behavior. I don't know if they were snickering or laughing or anything like that during the event but it didn't seem like there was anything grossly offensive. Also several players sat in the front row and were very respectful. I don't know what happened and the lack details is suspicious but I don't think this will turn out to be something serious.
I think it was kind of silly to send the football team to something like that. I know what message you WANT to send. However, you can almost be assured that won't be the message sent when there's a lot of emotion involved and at least one person with a political agenda involved.
Not being there, obviously, but understanding how large gatherings of people work, there were probably other people there that were acting in the same manner, and probably several others that left early, but due to the 'public face' nature of the football team, what they do will be recognized before anything else. It can only backfire unless you can be assured that every one of them will act appropriately.
That being said, and after reading the article, the person who wrote the article has an obvious bias and speaks with such disdain as to assure that all but those that share similar viewpoints will more than likely scoff at the article itself, which is the readership the author is probably after.
So the group is now attacking the football team in a different way and hanging flyers all over campus calling out the whole team. It's getting ridiculous
What do they say? If it's anything short of inviting the team and the public to engage in a dialog over this issue then this is nothing more than the public shaming of an entire group of people based on the alleged actions of a few. This isn't how anyone should advocate for their cause no matter how just their cause may be.
not sure, I was running late so couldn't stop and read but I'll check back later. but the main text was big and bold and read "Sit Down, VT Football."
Sounds like somebody needs to walk around campus and pull down those signs.
Don't worry, I am
I honestly don't know the rules about signage on campus, but if the flyers are in okayed-areas, do you have a right take them down? Anyone know the rules on this?
If I don't I'll just put other ones over it.
I don't agree with the fliers either, but I wouldn't recommend trying to suppress opposing viewpoints. I'm sure you wouldn't want the same done to you.
If it is just a bashing flyer it serves no purpose. The bulletin boards are for advertising an upcoming event on campus or even a campus organization. Therefore it doesn't need to be up in my opinion.
Would be interested to know if that is a group sponsored decision or the action of a few of the less cogent supporters. For anyone that has worked on this issue it's upsetting to see the message get lost like this.
I'm starting to get the feeling that certain members of the feminist organization came into this event with an agenda to push and saw an easy target the second the football team stepped foot in the building.
Yes, from the original tweet this felt like a "reaction of opportunity". It's a shame, because the Take Back the Night cause if one everyone should be on board with. And it doesn't sound (at least with the available details) that the football team was "against" it.
But when you have groups react in this manner, it becomes the quickest way to have a group of people completely tune out whatever message it is you are trying to convey.
Nothing ruins a good cause faster than someone with an agenda crying 'wolf' at every opportunity.
As I said before, great concept but it always seems to degenerate into name calling. I have talked to guys who felt afraid when the march was coming through as they were verbally abusive to men. That is NOT the point of TBTN.
The group being TBTN? Or The Black Sheep?
TBTN
I heard from #sources that this was all a misunderstanding and Whit sent the team to TBTN because he thought it was Take Back Thursday Night.
Sorry, I hope this joke doesn't come off distasteful. I just like to lighten the mood and hopefully I don't offend anyone.
#TakeBackTheNoon
#allnooneverything
Don't apologize. That was a nice one.
Of course, the fact that you feel that you have to add the apology disclaimer is indeed a sign our troubled times.
I agree with Leonard. No need for apologies. Anyone taking offense is looking for a fight. This thread has contained about as much seriousness as it could hold, appropriately so, but levity, judiciously applied, is a good way to break the tension. I remember the ride back from my dad's funeral with his sister, my mom and my brother. I don't remember laughing any harder in my life, with the tattles and tales about dad from those who knew and loved him best. No disrespect at all, and appreciated by all, with the possible exception of my suggestion that we stop at the 7/11 for a six pack. That one fell flat...especially with my wife. Dad would've been all for it though.
Narrator: (He says with a stern and melodramatically serious look on his face):
Oh, I agree. While the selection at 7-11 has improved, odds on getting a decent beer are better at a grocery store or wine shop.
It was right they shot you down.
Ha! Keep in mind, though, that this was '85 and South Carolina, and in those days, Budweiser would've done just fine.
Related Collegiate Times Piece for anyone interested.
So they were behaving so badly that someone had to come tell the coordinator on the stage that they were behaving badly?
I don't get it, obviously.
I don't get it either.
We're light on facts here. The co-coordinator told her "what was going on". Maybe she could tell us "what was going on" too.
An apology is not enough. Words are not enough. VT Football must now solve the crisis of gender-based violence. ...I must be reading that wrong...
Here is the Collegiate Times Article that's on the front page of the site this morning. There are also multiple letters about this being published in the opinion section.
Augie Conte confronted the author of one of these letters yesterday. According to #Sources he alleged that the things that are being published about the team didn't happen that night. Augie posted this tweet in response later that day:
A couple of the letters I've read accuse the team of various disrespectful acts, but the individuals authoring these same letters didn't witness the acts first hand. It's starting to sound like a big game of Telephone. I don't doubt that the players were disrespectful in some way that night, but it seems to me like the severity of the offenses is magnified with each iteration of the story.
Being a rude audience is one thing, but this sounds like a joke. When I first heard the report, I thought it was a bunch of football players yelling/taunting presenters/people on stage (which would be unacceptable IMO). Sounds more and more like they were snickering loudly and left early.
But if someone is being a bad audience member, why would you want them to leave?
Edit: I'll hold judgement until I hear exactly what was done/said.
Someone else posted the team was informed it was time to leave by the team minister or similar.
Others noted the event was over and it was time for the March.
It sounds more and more like they were made targets of opportunity but I'll hold back on that final judgement. It's hard because it fits in with my experience with this type of event.
Hopefully the Athletics staff has learned that they should not get involved in political events no matter how good the intention. Here we have the team attempting to support this event and are now negative national news. No amount of fixing or absolving can happen now.
O/T, but I had Susan Anderson for MATH1205.
That's what I've noticed, most of the articles filled with outrage and vitriol were from at least secondhand accounts. Even that one you just linked had someone there limit the offenders to a minority of the group. Not saying that excuses their behavior but from what was floating around this weekend I was expecting first hand accounts to be a bit more damning.
When will we stop using random people's Twitter and Facebook as sources for the news?
That group is blowing up the CT editorials as well with a bunch of side note stories to astroturf the entire football team's reputation (includes TOTS lines and dining hall lines as story lines). This is becoming a calculated brow beating. I am more disgusted with the so-called offended group - they were looking for and found a target of opportunity. This is getting MaCarthyite - seems they took lessons from Saul Alinski and Harry Reid. I know,... I just crossed a line. Sorry.
The more I read on this story the less I feel that I know about what actually went on.
I see a lot of people complaining and condemning the VT football team (in the tweets and articles, not this thread itself) without a lot of people actually offering any solid account of what horrible thing these guys supposedly did. By her own admission in the second article that was linked from teh CT today, Kelling the emcee for the event was looking for clarification on what happened. But in the initial post she wrote for the CT she made it seem like she was made aware of exactly what was going on. So which is it?
Frankly, with the way "news" works this day, until someone produces a cell phone video (which I am sure someone took if it was really that bad), then I will hold off thinking pretty much anything about this story. There is certainly that fine line where no one wants to be seen as not supporting the plight of people that are victims of abuse and violence which is a very real problem. But I am also not in support of false accusations.
Yes, agreed. This is exactly what I thought. Here is the part from the article:
If you yourself are looking for clarification the why the hell are you supporting people calling anyone out for being disgusting?
Because in this day and age if you don't automatically jump to the most damning conclusions and go for blood without any credible evidence then you're a terrible person that needs to be kept away from society.
Sounds to me like a better venue is needed that allows people to come and go without needing to be told to sit down. I agree that nobody should be forced to attend, and nobody should be forced to stay.
I was going to embed the Tweet, but it disappeared. JC Coleman posted something to the effect of "That awkward moment in class when someone mentions Take Back the Night and all the students start looking at you :("
This upset me. I have no idea if JC had any role in what happened at TBTN, but these blanket calls for punishment for the entire team, and the assumption that they're now bad people, need to stop. I understand that there was disrespectful behavior. That needs to be addressed, but this is a learning opportunity, not a punitive one. I hope Whit will come out and tell us what happened and what's being done so there can be some closure.
The people in that room looking at him in that situation and making him uncomfortable without knowing if he was one of the supposed disrespectful are equally part of the problem. Jeesh! This whole situation is insane. The group that is spamming the CT editorials and plastering sheets all over campus is succeeding in dividing our campus community.
Well.... Isn't THAT inclusive behavior.... /s
I would point to the flier campaign as a big contributor to the hostility that some members of the student body are showing to the football team now. The fliers are deliberately titled with a loaded question that implicates the entire team. I mean, if I read the title of this with no context, I'd be pretty upset too.
As I said before, there was an agenda at play and the football team is the convenient target. These "advocates" are turning a molehill into a mountain to fit their cause and its obvious to see. Unfortunately, this is the way our society works now. Would not surprise me if those responsible end up working for some of the national media agencies after college.
Unless there is hard video evidence of this behavior (days later in a smartphone dominated age we still don't have any, which is telling) I am inclined to believe it never happened in the way as is being reported.
.
"There were many football players there that were wonderful participants, and there were some that weren't so wonderful," Anderson said. (quote from Roanoke Times article below)
Sounds like they need to adjust the hashtag. Making an example out of the entire team is a reach
When I see a flyer like this, I have a hard time believing them. This was an opportunistic witch hunt.
Just as it's unfair to assume that the entire VT Football team was at fault during this event, it's also unfair to assume that the entire TBTN group is behind the writing and distribution of these flyers. There is one person's name on the byline, not a group's name.
I don't think anyone is blaming the TBTN organizers. If anyone is, that's totally misplaced. I think what's happening is you have a group of people who have nucleated around an idea and are using the importance of TBTN as leverage to carry out an agenda.
Leg for "nucleated."
Except there are multiple members spamming the CT editorials. The names are different for each editorial input. The effort is COORDINATED...
on other flyers the organizations logo was on it.
1) I am surprised that there is not video of this. Everyone has a cell phone with video. If it is as bad as everyone said, why isn't there a video? People take vids of EVERYTHING.
2) If the Rolling Stone story is any indication, we should wait and see what actually happened.
Someone might have an axe to grind and them not being attentive might have been blown out of proportion.
FTFY
No matter which side's story any of us believe here, I hope we're all united in the fact that we think Dr. Sands will gather all of the facts and render the correct decision at the end.
In the meantime, both sides of the argument need to stop with the straw men (including myself). It's not fair to demonize the group who hosted the event as agenda-pushers who were looking for an opportunity to raise a conflict. It's also not fair to vilify the football team as a whole as disrespectful or insincere.
All of the comments and turkey legs in the world won't give us the true recollection of what happened, and it's irresponsible for us to continue to beat this dead horse based on rumors, reputations and preconceived impressions.
I feel like the correct decision here has to be nothing more than telling everyone to chill and respect one another. And move on with your lives. This was ridiculous when it started and now it's just sad and pointless. That's my opinion anyways.
Edit: Also don't force people to go to these kinds of events. That seems counter-productive.
I don't think anyone is demonizing the event hosts. They're more or less talking about the people who weren't even there that are publishing these articles on unfounded hearsay and running with it. Going from most were fine but some were inattentive and talking and left before the march that I get from people who were actually there (like the organizer) to they all were making sexist jokes, talking loudly, and laughing at presenters is a far stretch.
This morning's Roanoke Times article
good thing this article came out well after the fact to make sure the issue, and complete lack of clear facts, doesn't go away
I also wish they had talked to Whit or some other member of the athletic department after the meeting. Instead we are left with one-sided accounts of what happened on Tuesday.
My hunch is the Roanoke Times tried to, and was denied access. From the article, "the meeting was closed to the public and reporters would not be allowed to attend". Additionally, both Babcock and Beamer released a statement, which is a public relations way to acknowledge a situation without taking on the scrutiny of the media. Koma is requesting an interview with both Babcock and Sands, and my hunch is he won't get it.
To my knowledge, neither Babcock or Beamer has discredited any of the claims made by the Collegiate Times [0] or the Roanoke Times [1].
At the very least, that's thoroughly disrespectful.
In fact, quotes from both Babcock and Beamer indicate each address the team, punitively.
Neither dispute what happened, and both indicate there will be negative consequences for the football team's actions. At this point, without knowing any specifics, I can believe the football team was at the very least disrespectful and disruptive. Given the seriousness of the subject matter discussed at the event, that's just unacceptable.
I intentionally wrote "football team" above.
Babcock is right on the money, every individual associated with the football program represents the team and Virginia Tech. From Anderson's comment, it's clear some players in attendance were respectful guests, others were dopes. However, the bad actions (even of a few) outweigh any positive behaviour (even of the many). And, the bad reflects not only on an individual's poor judgment, but negatively on the entire team.
[0] http://www.roanoke.com/news/education/higher_education/virginia_tech/vir...
[1] http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/virginia_tech/football-players-accus...
I don't dispute what's ultimately the crux of this scandal, that some members of the football team were in some way disrespectful. I did notice that the media wasn't allowed into Tuesday's meeting with the exception of the Collegiate Times. I was only pointing out that there were no statements from the athletic department taken by the Roanoke Times after Tuesday's discussion. Admittedly, this is probably intentional on the part of the athletic department.
I agree with this, but at the same time, the hands of Whit and Frank were tied here. They HAD to say things like that, because the age in which we live in, when news breaks, and things like this get out in the public, you are guilty until proven innocent. It doesn't matter if the team was on their best behavior the entire time, and the accusations are entirely fabricated (which could be the case for all we know, as all we're hearing are second hand stories and no recorded evidence has shown... in an age where EVERYTHING slightly out of line ends up in a YouTube video... Do I think that is the case? No, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle) the fact that these allegations are out there meant that Whit and Frank had to speak so as to not have Virginia Tech look like a place that is accepting of potential domestic violence and sexual assault.
So with that said, I am really not going to read into the comments by Frank and Whit until we actually know what happened there. We still don't even have that. What we have is a series of accusations from one side of the story causing those associated on the other side to go onto the immediate defense. With all the people that were at this event, you'd think someone would have gotten a video if the behavior was really as bad as being portrayed. You'd think those who are the most offended at the event would have recorded what happened to really drive home the fact that the behavior was that bad and that such an extent of disrespect was shown. The fact that we still don't have any of that is extremely telling.
Can we also start a witch hunt, hold discussions and post mean flyers anytime a student leaves a football game early/talks about non-football related activities/uses their phone during a game. I feel the way some of our fans behave might be distracting to the players out there - after all playing at home should be a "safe" environment.
Yes, that's sarcastic, but the level of attention this is getting has grown to ridiculous proportions. Does it seem like some people on the team were rude - yes. Should they apologize for that - yes. But if all that happened was a group of people talked/joked amongst themselves and then got up to leave during a presentation, people should probably move on.
One of those letters in particular was absolutely ridiculous with the amount of punishment they think should be handed out - 100 hours of community service and other punishments for being rude during a presentation? You can break laws without getting punished like that.
In my opinion, there were many wrongs committed here. First, if anybody from the team was rude or disruptive, that is wrong. But if people who run the event CALLED THEM OUT for leaving, that was wrong. Yes, this is a private and very personal setting which means that it can get uncomfortable for some people. They were forced to go, they shouldn't be forced to stay. Both are not fair to the opinions, beliefs, and feelings of everyone involved, including the athletes and others in attendance. You wouldn't call someone out and force them to come up and speak about their experience, so why are you going to force someone to stay. By calling the athletes out and asking them to sit down as they are leaving, the witch hunt was initiated for no reason. Had someone just asked them to be quiet and respectful, that's one thing. But whether they are an athlete or another attendee, nobody should be telling them to sit down if they should choose to leave.
I agree with this completely. Calling people out in the middle of the event really served no purpose because at that point, whether they stay or go you've made it into a larger distraction than it needed to be.
Personal story from my time at Tech - in my freshman year (08) I had a geology class that was in the large lecture hall in the GLC. There were a number of athletes in the class (attendance was not mandatory or really necessary as the tests were based on lecture slides and the book) and one day a number of them decided to leave class about halfway through. They left in two different small groups about a minute apart, and those of us in the back (and the professor looking out at the class) noticed. He didn't confront them when it happened, made a quick joke about it after they were gone and proceeded to teach the class to those who wanted to be there. I think everyone in the class more or less forgot about it five minutes later because the professor made it pretty clear that he had something to get through whether or not they wanted to see it.
It's not the exact same situation, but handling it in that way likely would have reduced how much of a distraction people leaving was.
1st mistake forcing someone to go to a rally/meeting against their will!!
2nd mistake see #1!
I understand the importance of education and support of these issues and would never try to shed a negative light on them. But the coaches should have asked for volunteers to attend the meeting as a representation of VT football with the understanding their behavior would be under a microscope. You would think out of all of our players we could have found three or four willing to go and show their support!
Now for the punishment some are calling for is crazy!! In my career I have been to several conferences that turned out to be of no interest to me and yes I got up and left. I may not have talked or yelled across the room at other attendees but I did txt and read emails before deciding I could not take it anymore and left. The guy's should have showed more respect for the speakers but as I said above they should have never been forced to be their.
In the end it was a regrettable night and I hope in the future our administration will at least consider asking for volunteers to go to these events and not force it upon the entire team.
I marched in Take Back the Night once and I will never go again. I found many of the women there just hated all men regardless. I would hear chants of "castrate them all." and other hateful speech towards men. The actual victims were somber, but many of the other women used the march as an excuse to spew feminazi hatred.
Unfortunately that was also my experience with the march.
I would reconsider using "feminazi" to describe feminists. In doing so you're engaging in the same divisive speech that they were using.
I use it to describe their like behavior, not a group of people. But fair enough I probably shouldn't use it.
Indeed, please don't. I already had to blur one Nazi post earlier this week...
No soup for you!
The Nazis were responsible for the deaths of eight million people through the administration of chemical weapons, grotesque medical experiments, and brutal killings for the macabre enjoyment of onlookers.
I have down voted your comment for drawing that sick parallel, and were there an ignore option on TKP I would have used it.That comment has no place on this forum.He didn't say all feminists were Nazis, he said that some of the rhetoric from a portion of the group he was exposed to fit that bill. I would have to say that one group of similar people chanting about mutilating people that are different from them sounds awfully similar to the type of stuff you might hear in 1939 Germany. So, while it may be a term that is less than respectful, it is not all together inaccurate or out of line.
Depends on who the "all" are in "castrate them all." The assumption here is that it is in reference to all men. In which case, fuck them. But if they're talking about violent sexual offenders, that's a different argument. Especially considering how poor the rehabilitation rates for sex offenders is.
Here nazis means a crazed group of individuals. Food nazi, grammar nazi are all fine terms to use. The use of such language doesn't dilute what the Nazis with a capital N did.
Thanks for clarifying. That traditionally has not been the intended usage by those I've encountered using the term "feminazi." I appreciate your response.