So one of the big concerns this year is the lack of depth at defensive end. I noticed something when looking at past recruits, and I'm glad it would brought up again today (http://www.thekeyplay.com/comment/260475#comment-260475). This post is largely directed at French, since he has the most VT Xs and Os knowledge.
Recruiting defensive ends is broken down into strongside and weakside. To generalize, strongside are the bigger slower guys, and weakside are the quicker smaller guys.
Since 2008, SDE recruits Antoine Hopkins, Isaiah Hamlette, Joe Jones, Derick Hopkins, Corey Marshall (4*), Woody Baron, Teller (4*), Mihota (4*) were all moved inside, with Teller being moved to offense. JR Collins and James Gayle are the only ones in that timeframe to stick at defensive end. That's 20%. The jury is still out on Nijman and Gaines.
I guess the point of this is, aren't we self inflicting our own DE depth problems? We move every SDE recruit to tackle so we are effectively cutting the talent pool in half. Moving upper end SDE recruits like Marshall and Teller (although sorely needed for offense) kind of defeats the "if we had better recruits theory".
So is it possible that playing larger ends, while sacrificing speed, would open things up for the LBs who have to do more in run support because of our undersized ends? Or occupy more blockers in pass protect so that a LB could blitz unchecked? Or some way to get Marshall and Mihota on the ends? How much of that is realistic keeping Buds defensive ideals
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I would argue that just because Rivals or another site has a player pegged for a certain position doesn't necessarily mean that's what the VT coaches are recruiting them at. I'm sure the coaches had an idea all along that those guys they targeted were most likely to move inside. I think we just failed to sign enough guys who are a good fit in Bud's scheme as a DE, but I still think we've got some potential there even though Trevon Hill's injury does hurt as I thought he could be in the 2-deep immediately.
That's the point I'm making. Because we don't see these guys as DEs like other schools do, we are cutting the DE recruiting pool in half. So of course its less likely that we'll find someone that fits in Buds scheme at end, hence the depth problems.
Wait a minute here. So you're saying it's possible that the coaches were thinking...QB all along for Logan Thomas as well?
I think they were thinking Logan for QB all along. Hence them not pursuing other QBs like Renner in the same class.
Tongue in cheek was intended. I agree with you 100% and have thought this since nearly day 1 of LT at VT.
As a high school prospect, Bud envisioned Logan at defensive end, because Bud's a mad scientist and all.
VT's scheme on defense requires DEs that have a certain level of speed/quickness. If Marshall and Mihota had the necessary foot speed they would have stayed outside. Right now you see Nijman still out at DE even though he's bigger than Mihota was last year because Nijman has quickness required.
It could also be a reflection on how our DT recruiting may not have been so great... or the DTs we did sign just didn't pan out for one reason or another.
posted my reply to French on other thread. My question is more about elite talent.
I find this an interesting question. Not trying to start any arguments though. We have problems closing on 5* talent and maybe it's because our system is created to fit with 3*/4* talent and not 5* talent. Call it entitlement or whatever, but I think 5* recruits expect to play where they are recruited at and not moved. Is that wrong? I don't think so. They have a more likely route to go pro than others so being moved is probably not something they feel is good for them. Yeah, that's not team first attitude and it's not the attitude I played with, but I had zero chance of going pro. If I did then I can imagine me being resistant to making a change like that.
anyway, off season topics for sure
Well the two most recent potential guys were Sweat and Hand. Sweat is a speed guy, so he would have undoubtedly stayed at DE. But Hand is a power guy. Based on our track record he would have been moved to DT. At Alabama he has stayed at DE. Idk if position change played into his decision making
I'm just sad Teller got moved. I think he could have been a poor mans Bosa, and thats pretty damn good
A DE at Alabama is very different from a DE here. You're talking a 3-4 DE who is supposed to eat up blocks and open lanes for the LBs who are their playmakers vs a 4-3 DE who is supposed to be quick around the edge while the DT eats up the blocks.
Alabama plays plenty of 4 man fronts. Either way there are plenty of 4 man lines that use an end that isn't very quick but also has the ability to bull rush
You're correct. I probably should have said a Bud Foster 4-3 DE rather than lump them all together as only speed rush guys.
I don't think a position change would have happened for Hand, but for the sake of speculation, bama does run a 3-4 defense and their DEs are big. Jonathan Allen, who probably would have stayed at DE if he was with us, is now 270 lbs. Hand is also now quite big. I'm sure if those two guys really wanted to rush the passer, they would have told bama they wanted to be a LB. I don't think its necessarily true that we don't land elite SDEs because we tend to move them inside, it seems like bama kind of does it by making them take on completely different roles in a defense that isn't used frequently in HS (I could be wrong about that)
Edit: didn't see Hokie_x3_hi's post and didnt know bama ran a lot of 4 man fronts. I guess it remains to be seen where bamas big DEs end up if they make it to the pros
Saban's never had an Alabama DE drafted higher than the 5th round. For that matter, he's only ever had 2 DTs drafted higher than the 5th round.
IIRC, outside of Marshall and Mihota, all of those guys were recruited as DT and would have been DT/were recruited as such at most programs. While we have had difficulties consistently recruiting elite DE talent, it isn't because of moving guys around or the scheme really. Elite defensive ends (i.e. ones with a quick first step, can set the edge, etc.) would thrive in Bud's system and likely would not get moved around. Joey Bosa would be a star in Bud's system just as he is at OSU.
The issue feeds itself somewhat. We haven't had a DE go high in the draft at that position under Wiles/Foster, which leads to not getting elite DE talent, which leads to smaller guys starting for us, which leads to our ends getting moved to OLB in the NFL, which leads to DE not going high in the draft, etc., etc. Landing 5* talent at VT is hard enough without this stigma. We need someone to break the cycle and go top 10-15 in the draft; not entirely sure that guy is on the roster right now.
Also, yes, you're basically asking for Bud to change his entire defensive scheme for the sake of DE depth, which hasn't always been an issue nor does it necessarily have to be with the system in place.
Lots of good points here. I think the problem is that Bud/Wiles etc. have not been able to land enough DE's to fit their system. A guy like Wyatt Teller, playing at Ohio State in 1997, would have been a good defensive end. Those teams played a 4-3 where the DE's were required to jam up two gaps and the linebackers played sideline to sideline. As a ton of smart folks have noted in this thread, many of the "DE's" that VT recruited may have been successful as a DE in other systems, but not in this system where the ends are one gap, movement oriented, contain guys while the inside linebackers account for gaps that a DE would have normally accounted for in a two gap system.
After the summer I am going to write a more detailed review specific about VT's DE play. However, we have covered at length how the Foster defense works. The DL slants or shoots to a specific gap. Playside DE has contain UNLESS there is a call where he crashes and the playside ILB has contain. The playside linebacker fits a playside gap, and the backside linebacker scrapes and then fills the first bubble. The edge player and alley player execute a force or spill call. If every player holds their gap, Foster will have one unblocked man available to make the tackle.
I did a review of how this works last spring- http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2014/april/8/spring-practice-film-stud.... In order for the ends to be effective, they CANNOT BE REACH BLOCKED when they have edge responsibility. That requires quickness. When you add that to slanting, stunting, and baiting OT's so linebackers can blitz, the position requires terrific twitch and quickness. Of the people listed in the OP:
1) The Hopkins brothers were never quick enough to play DE in any program except a two gap 3-4 D ala Alabama, and even then I doubt they would make it.
2) Hamlette and Jones were going to be depth guys. They were moved inside because of the dire need for a DT opposite DHop in 2011 because Maddy was so beat up by the time the Miami game happened as a freshman.
3) Corey Marshall was very serviceable as a solid DE for two season, however Bud found a way to make him a game changing weapon as a nose tackle.
4) I actually would not be opposed to Woody Baron or Vinny Mihota moving back to end. Baron is a very solid leverage player and has good flat down the line bend, but I don't know if he has the edge speed to be an every down guy there. Mihota has terrific explosive burst at DE, but I don't know if he had enough bend to catch running plays from the back side. He could play like Collins did and align with a cockeyed stance angling inside, but that exposed Collins as the 2011 season wore on when teams started running at him instead of away from him.
5) Teller didn't have the speed to play a 4-3 DE at the Army All American Game in HS. He was never going to be a DE here. Defensively, he was a bull in a china shop. Even for DT's, you can't just run around. The way Teller played, I think it would have been a few years before he became an effective DT, and I said then and have proven to be right that he would be much better suited to potentially be an all time great OL for VT instead of a decent DT.
Mihota is the intriguing guy. If Bud is planning on using the 3-3 or Bear fronts more often, Mihota is a guy who could play the strong side DE in both looks. However, in base defense I believe that Bud/Wiles is grooming Mihota to be a one gap, disruptive nose just like Marshall is currently.
You touched on it in the end, but I'm wondering if Bud will try to counter our lack of DE depth with more 3-3 alignments with Marshall (or Mihota) at DE. Besides ECU, which offenses would be best attacked by the 3-3? Or is it a game-situation defense?
If you can get 20 plays a game with Marshall at DE, that would go a long way to solving our DE problems.
That is a possibility. In the Bear Front, one DE moves inside to a three technique while the backer (Clarke) plays a stand up DE. Mihota and Nijman would be well suited for that role HOWEVER that would also mean they would need to flip sides with the guy who would play stand up DE opposite Clarke. It has been a long time since the Hokies flipped their ends (Stud used to play to the strength years ago if I remember correctly.) I don't know if Bud wants to worry about guys flip-flopping given the hurry up pace that many offenses use today.
Thanks for a very detailed response. I was just wondering if there was a route to change that would help our smaller line not get beat up by lines like Pitt, Stanford and Miami
Edit: missed reply to French
Vs Pitt and Miami, what would help is bigger, badder defensive tackles. Nigel Williams struggled as an every snap player. Woody Baron was injured, and Foster had not reached the point where he trusted Ricky Walker yet. Having Maddy back, a more mature Walker, and possibly Tim Settle makes it much easier for the linebackers to stay clean. Clean linebackers wreck slow teams.