Seeing how there is not a Game of Thrones thread to discus the show I thought I would start one. What are people's thoughts on the seasons so far and the season happening now.
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Tyrion is gonna rule Dani's land fersure once Dani leaves to go crush Westeros on her dragon
My thoughts are perfectly encapsulated by this:
All I know is the Death Penalty is abundant this season. We're 2 for 2 so far.
3 for 3. 'Mance' burned as well. And this season should see several more prominent deaths yet.
Mance, the Slave and who else got the death penalty?
Guess that Son of the Harpy got the expidited trial and death penalty.
He didn't get a trial that's why she had the slave beheaded and then the riot started.
I'm aware. Was trying to be funny about his jailhouse execution being the 'expidited' trial
Oh shit, I'm ahead of myself. I already watched episodes three and four. Forgot that the third one I mentioned hasn't been aired on HBO yet.
John Snow executed Janos Slynt for insubordination. Many apologies if this spoils anything. May R'hllor forgive me if I have.
Is it just me or are the episodes not containing as much total content as years past? Seems like more filler or I guess just less violence.
There's definitely more expository fluff it seems like. I think they're just trying not to rush through the precious source material left. Except they've completely ignored the Ironborn storyline, which would fix that problem easily. They kill all of the things.
What is dead may never die
Yea not sure why they are glossing over the ironborn, or even the subplots at the citadel?
I think they'll get to that... Later
I think they definitely will seeing as Sansa and Reek are now in the same city. There's bound to be a run in between the two eventually and once Reek becomes Theon again and Greyjoy is relevant again, I think they'll get into the Ironborn storyline.
Sam is still at the wall rigging elections. He probably leaves for Oldtown around episode 5 or 6 if the show wants to keep the timeline on track.
In the show it wasn't rigged, which kind of throws some things off.
Yeah, made things less fun, but they want to stay on track to meet the book by the end of this season. I hope they keep the Citadel, since it seems like it'll be important later.
Mostly I think it is because they already had to add all the Dorne sets and plots. If they wrap it up in a season they can use the resources next season for the Iron islands.
There's a lot of political intrigue in books 4&5, which is a big reason why the show is expected to overtake them so quickly. Right now Westeros is reeling from the war, and the death of Tywin has left a bit of a power void. The prince of Dorne (chair guy) is being cautious, Cersei isn't commanding the respect she wants, and Stannis is keeping to himself. And Danaeris is just chilling in Mereen. The conflicts are much more subtle. I'm sure they'll interject action where they can though. They're also still introducing characters for the season, so that takes time
Where is Sansa going?
Doesnt Littlefinger take him to his new lands he is getting via marriage?
I have a pretty good idea, and it is .....troubling.
I'm not sure how this thread feels about conjecture. Is is a spoiler if it's a guess based on some instinct? I haven't read the books but I've read enough from those who have that its filled in some blanks.
Jeyne, Jeyne, rhymes with pain.
What is this, the Firefly thread?
Won't ruin it for you, but its the last person you'd want to meet on Tinder.
Spoiler deemed too spoilery removed.
Please dont give away any episode 3 or 4 spoilers on here. The show varies from the books so even for those of us who read them, it is still new content.
I'm a huge fan of The Atlantic's GoT roundtable for your Monday Morning QB'ing.
Seems like G.O.T. has stuck to their bread and butter: people walking around Westros on foot on sidequests. Gonna be a lot of sidequests.
Hopefully the Dragons come into play this season and Denarys get a move on and stops being the mayor of Mereen and gets a plan together to the show on the road to Kings Landing, but I doubt it.
Will we ever find out what Brandt is doing in that tree? Learning to fly perhaps? We need more Hodor this season.
I also wonder if they will up their gratuitious nudity quotient. It used to be quiet high, but now it seems to be only an afterthought with just under 1-full frontal shot per episode. Maybe bump that to 2.
Hodor
Just wait there is a HUGE scene this year with Cersi.
Bran's storyline will not be part of this season from what I have heard. They are caught up to his part through book 5. I know they will expand past the books in some parts this season but not with him.
You'll get your dragons by the end of the season, Dany stays in Meereen, but things get more entertaining there, Bran and Hodor won't be on this season, and there should be an important scene in a Braavosi whorehouse coming up for your full frontal stats.
Leave it to Bravos to take pick up the slack left by Littlefinger's whorehouse-as-a-backdrop-for-nudity
And the Dornish seem less than concerned with clothing as well.
It is kinda hot there.
It seems like a really chill place to hang out, very relaxing vibe.
That's sarcasm right?
Going into last night, it seems that Littlefinger's whorehouse was still going strong.
Not afterwards, though.
Is that guy gonna hire some armed guards for the brothel or what?
I think he's basically forgotten about it. It's no longer important to him compared to the other things he has going on. It was never really any more than a means to get leverage on others in Kings Landing anyway, and now he's been elevated far beyond needing to blackmail people for their proclivities in the bedroom.
One scene that I think would have translated well would have been when Arya plucks the worm from the eye of the guy who answers the door to the temple in the book.
Well she only just walked inside in episode 2, soooo... Or have you watched the other two that leaked already?
No, I try to not watch pirated stuff since I want to see more made in the long run. That scene should happen first off since that's the reason she gets invited inside.
I want to see that scene too, I'm holding on to the hope that it's a second test she has to pass
Can we stop discussing book stuff? There are people who just watch the show that we shouldn't spoil things for
Discussing stuff in the books is fair game, they are all out there to be read, but people who have watched the illegal pirated episodes should keep that to themselves.
People should be able to experience it for the first time whether or not they want to read the books
The. We run into people who are behind the show on Monday do we then wait for them also? I think as long as we don't reveal HUGE plot lines or deaths from the books it should be fine.
Depends on the person I guess. I have a friend who reads plot summaries on Wikipedia all the time before watching movies/reading books/playing games. And i don't have any problem discussing what's been aired, just mixing the mediums.
As someone who hasn't read the books, if I miss an episode and plan on watching it, I can avoid this thread until I catch up. As someone who watched the episode last night, but am now reading book stuff and foreshadowing through the season, that's not fair game. At least a ******Book Spoiler****** should precede comments that refer to things not on TV yet.
I'm of the opinion that something is not a spoiler if it is referring to information or media that has been published for going on 19 years now (4 years, if you want to refer to the most recent book only)
I have no problem with using a tag as a heads up, but this thread is not necessarily a discussion of the TV show only.
My bad guys. It all kind of blended and I forgot what has been shown through episode 2, and what hasn't yet.
Thanks for editing. It's always going to be awkward until the show catches up to the leaks and the books
Yeah, I know there's simply a conversation about it, and I thought that conversation happened BEFORE Petyr and Sansa got to that inn. You'd think she'd have asked where they were going before they left.
The thread title has a spoiler warning. If people read the thread, they do so knowing the risk.
I finished all the books a few months ago, and after watching last night's episode, my only reaction was:
Some significant deviations from the books. That's not necessarily bad, and I'm not a "books are to be treated as canon" kind of purist, but it's really messing with my head right now.
Also, WHERE ARE THE IRONBORN? That's the subplot I find most intriguing from the books. Victarion seems poised to be so critical, and yet NOTHING has been said about him in the TV series...
The absence of the Ironborn and Victarion really makes me believe he is going to be a footnote death on Daenerys' rise to power in the books as well. Kind of like that kid from Dorne who tries to demand wedlock and steal the dragons. Which kind of blows but then again it just seems like the books are SO FAR from the end that I really don't know how it's all going to get wrapped up unless the enxt one is like 3000 pages long
The series is starting to deviate severly from the books (which is fine, I read the books and I don't think they need to be followed exactly, but there is still alot of interesting stuff being left out.) There is a lot of filler in the books too and storylines that go nowhere, but I feel like some of the really interesting parts are being left behind as well.
Thought it was interesting that they are clearly going to be including Greyscale as a plot item as the books did based on the conversation Shireen had with Gillie (that never occured in the books), but its also clear that Connington and his....apprentice?....are not going to be part of the show based on Varys taking Tyrion to meet Dany directly. So I am interested to see how it ends up being worked in because the producers have already confirmed that the 'Stone Men' will be in this season.
So, to me I am interested to see how they bring some of these new plotlines and tie them with some of the things in the books that they have dropped. I will be honest though, the first 2 episodes of this season I feel are episodes that I don't need or want to watch again.
The Varys-Tyrion journey could be interesting. I really think Varys is just being used as a surrogate for Illyrio and the rest of that path will still work out more or less the same. One of the promo posters showed Tyrion on the bow of a ship looking through fog at Drogon, so that means the Connington story line could continue mostly unchanged (or changed entirely, but still present).
Or there is no Connington/Young Griff, but the journey stays relatively intact so Tyrion ends up in Meereen, but the show won't have to concern itself with the mystery of Young Griff (who I don't believe for a second is who he claims to be).
I doubt tyrion and varys have a nice easy trek to Mereen
"Who in the seven hells are you?"
"Your Death"
yeah, i want to meet him
Given that neither Sansa or Arya wanted Brienne around, where is she gonna go now? Try and find Stannis? Her adventure is irreconcilably different from the books, so it's really hard to tell what the show is gonna do with her for 8 episodes.
Her storyline is so completely different. And it appears that Jaime's storyline will be incredibly different as well (although potentially a LOT more interesting)
Sansa's is hyper jumped I believe. Where she is going is where she ultimately ends up in the books. Jaime's is extremely different however but as per the book's "rescue" of Marcella they should only be in Dorne a short while. And I imagine that it's easier for the show to use Jaime instead of creating new characters for a subplot.
Sansa never heads to where it is assumed she is going in the show. She stays in the Vale the entire time, and as of the end of Book 5 the plan for her is discussed, but it doesn't involve leaving the Vale. If anything, the plan (at least the details Littlefinger provides to her, which clearly can be a lie on his part, but we don't know for certain) really doesn't seem that bad for her.
What I mean is that Sansa has jumped past the books arc to where she will ultimately end up in the books. Her journey to that place in the books takes far too long for the show which needs her in that place sooner rather than later. However, I believe Sansa will ultimately be located in the same location both in the show and in the books no matter how much longer it takes her to get there in the books.
Where the show is taking her is decidedly NOT the path of the books. The books make it seem as though she'll marry her cousin to assume control of the Vale, and MAYBE, eventually the North, though that is unlikely unless Rickon is killed somehow, which I doubt.
Not sure how you read that I said she is taking the path of the books. What I said is that I believe where she is going in the show is where she will ultimately end up at in the books. I did not say those paths were the same.
I don't believe that she will remain in the Vale to lead it. That may be the current place her arc is at but things change fast in Westeros and I doubt that is her fate. We can disagree on that though.
I meant overarching path. I think the books treat Sansa as a rather unimportant character useful only for exposition of Petyr Baelish's plans, and as a pawn in those plans. The show, which seeks a broader demographic, chooses to make Sansa more involved, if only to contribute another central female storyline to capture a larger female audience. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as it doesn't dramatically change other, larger plots from the series, but I do believe Sansa is the one character that the show will change the most. To the extent that her end in the show could potentially bear no resemblance to that of the books.
I agree.
In the books, Sansa's character is for better or worse completely worthless in her own right. Not to say she hasn't had a reason to exist (she was the punching bag first to display Joffrey's cruelty, and then to show briefly that the Hound was not necessarily completely a bad guy, building on Arya's experience with him later on, and then as mentioned a sounding board to reveal Littlefinger's plans). But Sansa herself has been very unimportant in terms of any actual character accomplishments or growth (at least through the first 5 books)
The show has already taken a significant detour from this with the Lysa getting kicked out of the Moon Door sequence. Not that that didn't happen, but there was another character in the books that was involved even moreso. If she is heading North, which again is big speculation, then her involvement in the plot of the series will be very different path.
yeah, we are definitely going to disagree there. I don't think Sansa has been treated unimportantly at all in the books. If any of the Stark kids have been relegated to unimportance it's been Rickon, but I don't think that's the case for him either. Actually for Sansa I think she is quite a central character. Martin likes to write strong women. Sansa and Arya are both young girls taking wildly different paths to strength, but they are both getting there. Sansa's ordeals at King's Landing and her education at the Vale is key to where she will end up and IMO a necessary arc to her character's buildup to be believable as a strong female leader at the end of the books.
So i don't see the show trying to exploit that character for demographics I see them trying to expedite her journey so that she gets to the position she needs to be at when the show ends. They can't have another season of her in the Vale getting perved on by Baelish and her cousin, because that's already happened. now her character needs to progress.
Sansa is never going to lead anything. She's only ever been a pawn, she'll always only be a pawn. And that's okay.
i think you are going to be fairly disappointed then if that's all you want her to be.
We're not talking about where I want the story to go, it's where I objectively believe it WILL go. If we were talking wants, there would be no Sansa. At all. And instead we would have POV chapters for Baelish, who is a far more compelling, and far more necessary, character.
It's cool. agree to disagree. IMO her being used as a pawn is leading to something. all along she has had teachers that all saw the same opportunity to exploit in her, but she keeps getting passed around. all the while she has grown more perceptive and aware, and now with Baelish more cunning. This is leading to something.
Her escaping King's Landing was for a reason. Baelish didn't need her to execute his plan in the Vale and she isn't going to be relegated to be his plaything.
I see the scene at the Vale where she builds Winterfell in the snow as prophetic. In the end she will be the Lady of Winterfell and rebuild the castle.
so just different view. no worries
Having watched the first few seasons of the show before reading the books, I hated Sansa. She seemed like this weak, meek little girl. The books shattered that image, showing her struggle between being that obedient wife and princess that she so badly wanted to be and was raised to be and standing up to all the evil that surrounded her. When Joff took her to see Ned's head in the show she seemed so pathetic, in the book she actually took that first step towards kicking his smug ass off to his death before the Hound made her think better. She's been surrounded by the vilest of snakes and has learned their tricks firsthand. I'm with you, it's only so long before Sansa snaps and becomes one of the strongest women in Westeros.
Queen Sansa sitting on the Iron Throne with her faithful husband King Gendry and her silent assassin Arya at her side.
yep, Sansa will be Warden of the North and one of the most powerful women in Westeros. Agree completely
Would this not also mean that Rickon would have to be dead though, or just never found? Him never being found (dead or alive) would be an odd narrative choice though.
Unless I am mistaken succession in Westeros is not exclusively a male first order, so Sansa being the eldest would work. Also the Warden of the North could be done by appointment. For example, Stannis could appoint her as Warden of the North as he wanted to do with Jon.
In Dorne, succession is female-first. In the rest of Westeros, inheritance is in order of male order. But you're right, the Warden(ness) of the North need not be the same as the Lord/Lady of a family (at least, I don't think). It is indeed an appointment from the King, so if Rickon turns up or something, he could be Lord of Winterfell and Sansa could be the Wardeness of the North. I'm assuming...
In Dorne it is common for women to be part of the line of succession. Not so much in the rest of Westeros. In the Vale for instance, Lyssa only was in charge until her son grew old enough to rule the vale.
But that is because Lyssa was not from the Vale.
I know Dorne is different, and the Ironborn are as well. But I believe there is precedent in other parts of Westeros for a woman to be Lord. For example the Mormonts on Bear Island. I believe Maege Mormont is Lord.
Maege Mormont is the Lady of Bear Island because Jorah fled in exile. Maege is Jeor's younger sister, and since Jeor didn't have an heir when Jorah disgraced the House, the inheritance fell to Maege. Women can inherit titles in most lands in Westeros, but generally only after there are no suitable male heirs.
yep, I know, I was just looking for precedent.
As AZHokie put below the question is what would happen if Rickon returned. Maybe Sansa would step down to elevate her brother. I can totally see that, but in the meantime I see her taking that position of Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell. That's where I see her story going and have for a long time in the books.
Rickon is an interesting one though. He has always seemed a bit... off. More savage and wild. So I wonder if he ever would return to be Lord.
The Mormont example is uncharacteristic of any precedent, but is rather a simple matter of who's left. Bear Island is rather remote, has little population, and the Mormont men left, with Jeor going to the Wall, and Jorah being stripped of title and exiled for selling poachers into slavery. Westeros, with the exception of Dorne, abides by a system of first-born son rule. Assuming Bran stays with the Children, WHEN Rickon returns, he will be Lord of Winterfell by right, and will be Warden of the North by tradition. The Wardenship is not given to an individual, but rather to a family. So, as with property and governance of their castle, the Patriarch would assume the title of Warden as well. So even if Sansa were given the title for whatever reason, she would only be a placeholder until Rickon reappears.
see comment above
Goddammit. Took too long to type. Well done you.
In Dorne, succession goes by whom is the oldest I believe. For Westeros, it goes first in order by eldest male heir, and then by oldest daughter. Cersei laments this fact specifically in one of the books when she mentions that she was in fact older than Jaime (by a few moments) but he in fact would be the one to inherit Casterly Rock. And then Tyrion mentions it again much later that he would be the rightful heir to the castle, which pissed Tywin off, superceeding his older sister.
Its not clear if the Warden title can be given to someone that is not the oldest Lord/Lady of the House. Stannis wanted to legitimize Jon, which would have made him the oldest Stark son by law. So that doesn't really answer the question. Stannis also is offended by Renly trying to make a claim as he was not the oldest male in the line after Robert's death. So the next question would be if Rickon comes back into the picture, would Stannis just follow tradition and name Rickon (who would be Lord of Winterfell) as the Warden also.
I don't know, we havn't seen an instance where the Warden wasn't the oldest male.
Yeah I think you're right. Rickon would be second-in-line after Sansa.
I think the Jaime one could be rectified with the books though. I think the trip to Dorne serves two purposes for the show: Jaime will have to fight and kill, regaining some of his prior form and self-esteem; and Bronn will almost certainly die because his character arc is basically over and the show doesn't need him anymore.
Bronn will almost certainly die because
his character arc is basically over and the show doesn't need him anymore.this is game of thronesWhile generally held to be true, there is a method to all the killing. Few, if any, characters die just for the sake of shocking the audience. Each death comes at a logical point (in retrospect), and further progresses the overall story. Keeping Bronn around for more seasons only serves to create one more paycheck for HBO to sign, and I'd much rather that money go to hiring some GODDAMNED GREYJOYS ALREADY.
Oh, but I love Bronn. Him and Jamie on the road together is gonna be great. Anyway, Jamie offered him another wife and castle so he's got other stuff he could do.
But we don't have any Kingsguard in Dorne to get killed by Areo Hotah. And Jaime can't die yet. So that leaves Bronn. Which sucks, cause with the Hound dead and Tyrion depressed, that creates a real void of snarkiness.
BOOK side thought: How is the entire story going to be wrapped up in 2 more books? How is he going to write the books when the show is going to pass by them?
I believe there is a lot of talk (some of it from Martin himself) that implies that whatever ends up happening in the show is the canon for the series. Part of me wonders if he would ever even finish writing it. Its an interesting dilema, because there never really has been a time in TV history were a series like that would A) have been able to be funded and B) ended up being such a runaway hit on what is considered a "niche" interest (that being fantasy fiction in general). So we have never really come across this problem. The only thing I can think to compare it to is The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. That guy literally died before he finished, and it ended up not being a big deal.
Easy, each book is split into two or three volumes, each about 1500 pages long. So we should have a conclusion about the time GRRM turns 157.
Oh, good. I thought it was going to be a long time before I could read the end of the series.
Really glad that Kevan Lannister was brought back as a full character. Even if the actor looks older then Tywin. Easy to see D&D glossing over him.
And without spoling anything it for show only readers but to point out a difference to give some context.
In Dorne in the show Doran Martell Prince of Dorne has one child, Trystane who is engaged to Myrcella. Baratheon.
That removes his two older siblings, Arianne Martell heir to be Princess of Dorne on her father's death, and Quentyn Martell. And while Oberyn's and Snakes and the populace cry for war and vengeance, Ellaria is very much against it. And has some of the saddest quotes out of that desire to avoid war.
Again no spoilers, but for you show only people it gives you an idea of how simplified the plot has been made with regards to Dorne.
Only a few minutes into the latest episode and I'm not liking the direction it's headed.
Don't try and deny Tommen's pussy touchdowns. Ser Pounce will have words
I am just not feeling this season at all. The showrunners are starting to write their own story, and the results so far have not been good IMO.
Too be fair, in the books Tommen does LOVE cats.
I thought the best part by far were the Arya scenes and Jon Snow taking care of Janos. And those also happen to be two of the only parts handled much in the way they were in the book. Even though the High Sparrow arc comes from the narrative, it feels really rushed in the show.
The Sansa story arc...I just don't think they have done a good enough job with her characters development to make us believe she is now going to be this scheming person that will get back at the Boltons.
The High Sparrow thing kind of has to be if they want to get where that plotline is going by the end of this season. Which we know they're going to, because filming the scene you know I'm referring to took place last fall.
I am enjoying this season way more than in the past...
No, not for the episodes themselves, but for the newfound enjoyment of listening to everyone who has read the books bitch and moan endlessly because they no longer know what's coming next. My BIL is having an especially troubling time with no longer being 'in the know' about the story going forward.
I find the differences really interesting. I am not a "book purist" my any stretch, and my wife (who hasn't finished reading the books) likes to ask me how things differ so far. She is also OK with me giving spoilers, because she really doesn't have time to read the books right now. We talk about how the story might unite or might divide. I recall that when George Martin signed off on the HBO series, he asked the showrunners how they thought the story would end. Apparently they "got it right," so I have to imagine the stories will diverge but the larger elements will all end up in the same place. I think the Sansa-at-Winterfell story line will be even more compelling than what's in the books.
Martin asked them who Jon Snow's mother was at dinner, and they got it right. I believe at the beginning of last season Martin told them how he will end the books in case he died before he could write it. So it will all end up at the same place. Every person going to the place they need to be. Their journey may be different but the destinations the same, minus some non-essential characters getting killed off before they do so in the books, or ever do so.
I know there are plenty of people that want things to be exactly the same as the books. I would not consider myself one of them, although I am not a huge fan of some of the changes they have made.
i think the #1 issue they are going to run into is that for several seasons they followed the written narrative pretty closely, with most of the changes being due more tot he logistics of filming a television series than anything else. Now, they are introducing new arcs with characters that have not been properly developed for them. That is problematic storytelling.
If anything not knowing whats coming next is in and of itself much more interesting when one is deciding to invest time each week to watch the show. I am hoping they can reconcile the two somehow, I would not pretend that it is easy.
I don't have any problem with the story telling (non book reader). I assume this critique is the "Sansa isn't ready for this!" thing we've been reading a lot for the last 24 hours. I don't get that. She's been through a helluva lot, she can handle herself. And if she can't handle herself, it will flesh out appropriately (really bad Bolton pun there).
I'm really encouraged with the Sansa/Ramsey storyline, it really does start to feel like we are turning towards some endgame.
Where's Brandon at, is he just chillin all up in that tree this season?
Pretty much. That crew isn't part of this season.
Not in this season I believe, or very little of him. My speculation is that he won't really come into play until Winter has come and the White Walkers are storming Westeros. Then he will get into the minds of the hero(s) needed to come together to beat them back, and what do you know fire breathing dragons just might do the trick.
Where's Rickon? Where's Benjen? Where's Arya's sparring partner?
GODDAMMIT SYRIO FOREL IS DEAD
now Benjen, that's another story
Bullshit Syrio escaped and swapped faces down in the dungeons and became J'aqhen
Benjen is Coldhands. Come on now!!
Kidding of course. I feel like he will just probably never be mentioned again (in the books or otherwise) Used as a plot device to get Jon to the Wall and thats it. Kinda sad they left Coldhands out of the show.
Rickon will probably be where he has been hinted to be, even though there is not anything to suggest if thats true or not.
But how can Benjen be Coldhands AND Daario at the same time!? Unless Bendaario is warging dead body in The North in his spare time...
I just read that Benjen is Daario theory over on reddit. You wanna talk about grasping at straws...
Yeah that theory makes absolutely zero sense, on several levels.
Still better then the Euron is Daario one...
Because that one is impossible.
But Euron does drink that same crazy shit as the warlocks, so might be he's got some magic in his tool box of bat shit crazy.
Rickon is on Skagos, eventually headed to Greywater Watch. Benjen is impossible to speculate about because no clues are given. The only definite thing is that he is not Coldhands, because Coldhands is impossibly old. Arya has had several sparring partners, and all of them are dead.
It's interesting to me the NEED for some fans to know Benjen's fate. When reading initially, he never stood out to me as an essential character, and literally nothing has been written or filmed to suggest otherwise after getting Jon to head to the Wall.
I think part of it simply derives from the incredible detail in the story. There are not many loose ends, there are crazily intertwined families and histories, it probably seems sort of strange to many people that any character, especially one from a major House, would just fade into nothing. I tend to agree that Benjen was likely just a plot device, but there are few characters that have their story simply cut off, that he stands out.
I think we will see Benjen again in some context. I know that GRRM has said that the next books will venture extremely far north. Given that he was last seen heading out ranging, it wouldn't surprise me if Benjen suddly popped up and came to someone's rescue, or conversely, if he was now a wight and ended up attacking someone. I think GRRM is savvy enough to give that character SOME form of closure.
Otherwise, if Baratheon couldn't get Jon Snow to retake and hold Winterfell and become the ruler there, Baratheon might consider BenJen seeing as how he was Ned's brother and as far as anyone knows, the last remaining male heir to Winterfell.
Stannis will find another heir before he finds Benjen.
Well, he could always sell the lordship for felty.
Plus there is a penchant for some characters to come back to life unless they are actually seen dead (exception: The Unnamed Geological Formation that Travels in a Specific Way)
Just remember, Qyburn is NOT making zombies. He's very adamant about that.
The Mountain is dead, currently being scrapped for parts.
I mean we also don't know if the Frey's actually shipped Robb's head to Kings Landing
What would the Fedex fee for something like that?
And don't forget the Canine Whose Snout Is Marred By Mankind's Greatest Invention.
Link from some folks with WAAAY too much time on their hands
I thought this connection was fairly obvious in the books. Didn't know it was something debated.
Completely off topic of this post, but: I wrote short thing about Bill Roth that'd I'd like to share as a forum post but lack the turkey legs to do so. I'm kinda stuck and want the post to be timely. Anybody want to help me out? 11 legs will do the trick.
I suggest simply adding it in the comments of the thread already dedicated to that story:
http://www.thekeyplay.com/virginia-tech-football/2015/04/9162/voice-hoki...
Here's a leg on this post. Follow VTGuitarman and post there and I can spot you another.
So many thoughts after this episode. Won't spoil it but my biggest issue is why the hell HBO has a show that's only 44 minutes of actual show? They don't show commercials why can't the show run 55 minutes. Also there seemed to be ALOT more killing this episode for people looking for that.
I just finished watching tonight's episode. What a crazy ending. I hate waiting an entire week to see what happens
Can't wait for stony bros
I liked that they explained Shirene's greyscale. Not a huge deal to the story overall, but an interesting tidbit that added a humanizing scene for Stannis.
Agreed, it was a great scene. The one true king is a complicated man.
One true god. One true king. One true father of the year.
One worst mother as well. Stannis' actual wife is turrible.
As horrible of a person as Cerci is, she does love her children and tried to defend them.
"Mum didn't want to bring me here."
"Why do you think that?"
"Because Mum said, 'I don't want to bring you.'"
I thought it was a really good scene as well, to show that side of Stannis that we have never seen. Shireen is such a minor character in the books (although she has a fool that is really really interesting, but not in the show at all sadly), that you never get to see any of this love that he has for her.
I really wish the show had Patchface.
It's been a long time since I read ACOK but is Moon Boy her fool? Shireen sings the "I doooo, I doooo" song in an earlier episode. I'm not home to check the book. I thought Moon Boy was someone in King's Landing.
Obligatory "For all we know"
Moon Boy is a fool in King's Landing. I herpaderped.
No her fool is Patchface. Lot of theories out there that he is connected to the Drowned God (the one the Ironborn worship) based on the fact that he basically drowned and came back to life, along with the prophecies a lot of his silly songs seem to have.
But they have completely ignored that storyline, so not surprised he is not in it.
Goddammit. I mixed up my fools.
I really have no idea the path these stories will follow at this point, which I like. I'm not sure if I like some of the changes in and of themselves, but not knowing whats going to happen is definitely more interesting. Didn't think they were going to have Barristan go out that way (if at all just yet). And I think the Jaime/Bronn scenes are well done, almost like a buddy cop movie vibe going between the two.
I do think they are setting up what goes down with the Faith MIlitant nicely though, and that should be a real treat for those that have not read the books. (And their eyeballs)
Doubtful. I'm willing to bet that Lena Headey has a no-nudity clause. I've heard that Emilia Clarke does, after Season 2. (DAMMIT!)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2782295/Game-Thrones-bosses...
The scene has been filmed. It's happening.
There are mixed reports on this. Many articles say she will be filmed from the shoulders up and there is a body double for anything fully nude. Several tabloids say she does the scenes herself, but I don't typically trust TMZ (and everyone's basically just reposting TMZ's information so it's really just one #source getting repeated). It will probably be edited in such a manner that there will be no definitive evidence either way.
She did use a stunt butt when Bran catches her and Jaime twincesting way back in Season 1.
She's not shied away from nudity before (sex scene in 300), and she understands the powerful impact of this scene on her character. While Lena Headey has stated that she's fought to keep Cersei clothed in the past, her reasoning was that it makes the audience focus on her power and manipulative mind, rather than the body. The entire purpose of this is the shaming of Cersei. While it certainly won't be gratuitous as some scenes in the show, in order for this to have the desired effect on the show, and how the viewer sees Cersei, there HAS to be nudity.
No one disputes that there will be nudity; it's essential to the scene. But it is possible to separate the character of Cersei from the actress we typically see portraying her. Use of a body double has been the official line from the outset, a leaked photo (that shows a blonde woman, mostly hidden) really doesn't prove anything. Lena Headey also has a large amount of body art that would be a significant makeup job in and of itself to cover up (or a lot of digital work, which appears is not going to be the case here).
In any case, this is just about the "exactly what you think happens on the Internet" kind of debate - the minutiae of whether or not an actress will be nude. It will be a powerful scene, no matter what. While there is really some gratuitous nudity in GoT, this sequence will have real meaning, and it doesn't matter whose body it is. It's what happens to the character that matters.
Misunderstood the part about shoulder up. Leg for making you explain.
So as much as I love Selmy for his personal heroics as Barry the Fucking Bold, he is actually sort of a terrible person in the books, and I am glad that he is legitimately trying to make Dany see all the evil her family did, where as in the books she brushes it off and he doesn't really press the point.
His conception of the Kings Guard are silent shields unless asked is morally bankrupt, Jamie's conceptualization of the Guard as protecting the King even from himself is clearly the superior one both for the men involved and the realm at large.
If the White Bull or the Sword of the Morning had said, Aerys you should not burn your Warden of the North over the actions of your son, you need to calm down, who is it that can speak against them?
Aerys, who then burns them as well.
Because im sure there will be plenty of people ready to try to take the two best swordsmen in the realm in the throne room. Who knows where Selmy or Jamie or Whent would have stood, they were all there as well.
But Cristin Cole proved that the Kings Guard's voice can carry a great deal of weight and even over rule that of their king. His decision to support the male claimant over the old kings will started the Dance of the Dragons.
So, can we talk about R+L=J here? I've got some thoughts, especially since this episode got us closer than any episode ever has before.
And I've got my theory of the Final Conclusion I would like to discuss (I'm not a book reader, just connecting some dots).
But if that's not cool here, no biggie.
I'd say keep it elsewhere unless you're sticking to references & story lines from the TV series only. If we had [spoiler] tags might be different. I think people come to this thread expecting spoilers to the TV series, not spoilers to the whole story.
edit: on second thought, there's already been some book-based speculation above, so it might not be so bad. *shrug* I've read all the book so it won't impact me. Maybe the OP can chime in.
Agreed... Don't say anything specific for people not ITK. Keep the convo as frustratingly vague as possible.
That said, when you think about it, there were enough hints dropped throughout that one episode that I am starting to think that's the path they're ultimately going down. Lots of foreshadowing, though it could be that the writers are just trolling.
Well, I was thinking if that is eventual direction, and we got three strong hints it is in this episode, I was thinking of who could confirm that theory.
And I came up with five people. If we are killing off one of those people, that would be interesting.
There is really only one person left alive that could confirm the theory. We havn't met him yet in the books (aside from a flashback chapter), or the show.
I don't see a problem talking about it. The R+L theory really was only based on hints from the books anyway, hints the show more or less just gave in the most recent episode. IMO there isn't anything about that discussion that a book reader would know versus someone watching the show only at this point. Outside of the reference Littlefinger made to the frost lillies that Rhaegar gave Lyanna in Sundays episode to me is one of the clearer drops out of all the little hints here in there, based on a vision that is only described in the books
Well that episode did not end well at all. If you didn't think you could hate anyone more than Joffrey you would be wrong. Ramsey Bolton is now the top evil MF in the world of GOT.
THE ROOM OF FACES THOUGH
Ramsay Bolton, TURNT STATUS: UP
and trust me show watchers, its only worse in the books, Reek doesnt just watch.
Lmao, Turnt Status...
It's not Sansa in the books it's Jeyne Poole.
And because it isnt happening to a real Stark that makes it more palatable?
It's a fictional show set in a time where forced marriages and rape were common. For people who this rape was the thing that turned them off the show haven't been paying attention. As for who it happens to, I think Reek/Theon raping Sansa would be worse for her and him mentally.
The difference isn't palatability. In the books, Jeyne Poole is treated so insanely terrible, almost a sexual Reek. Replacing her with Sansa, a character we've known for years makes it more emotionally scarring because we have a relationship with the character rather than just disturbing and disgusting.
This right here.
In the books the character that this (and much worse) happens to, we pretty much have absolutely zero connection to in any way. That certainly doesn't make it "better" by any stretch, but you are dead on about the emotions of the scene.
I know awhile back someone was arguing about the direction they were going with Sansa and this different path was leading her away from always being the victim. If anything, the change in the story has now made her the ultimate victim. It should b e very interesting to see how this event effects things in the future, because in the book Ramsey raping his wife was more or less another scene just to remind you what you already knew, that he is a terrible monster and that he has complete and utter control over Reek. But we already knew those things, so it wasn't really even that necessary.
But now that it is Sansa...
Yea Ramsay is going to die in a really really bad way. cant wait.
Thats the hope.
But GRRM has a habit of killing the good people and letting the bad people continue on their evil ways for a good while.
In the books its made clear that Ramsey is the worst of the whole lot from almost the first time you meet him, and its been literally years since we've been waiting for him to get flayed, haha.
C'mon Stannis!
I'm curious to see if you still hold this opinion after last night's episode.
Hell fuckin no. Fuck Stannis. Mawfucker got what he deserved.
edit: sorry for the language
After watching last nights episode, I really have to say I can not stand the TV version of the Sand Snakes. Their importance to the plot has really been moved up from where its at so far in the books, and I just don't think these characters as they are written are pulling it off.
The Sand Snakes are awful. The initial scene when they were introduced was really poorly acted, then they get no development at all....just charge right into the Jaime/Bronn fight scene.
This whole Dorne business has been rushed.
GoT Atlantic Roundtable
Nothing destroys a scene quite like an action girl overcompensating with bad acting!
Never forget:
Oh, haha, is that her? I've seen people talk about how she got an Academy Award nomination but hadn't seen for which movie. Also I love how the internet is suddenly not so harsh on the Sand Snakes after Tyene's scene with Bronn.
Yeah, the Dorne characters are trite and poorly acted (read overly bombastic). The sand-snakes are terrible to the point of annoying. Hopefully they all just die soon. The whole sub-story comes across as half-baked in the show.
The 'trial' was also very small time and poorly done. It was as if a community theater were attempting to recreate it
Aside from that bit of unpleasantness I'm pretty happy with this season. The Arya and Tyrion scenes are starting to get good again and Jon Snow's trip to hard home should be interesting. How close is it to Skagos?
Not close enough. But it's relatively close. Same area of the North.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg
As you can see on the map, Hardhome is NE of Eastwatch where Skagos is about directly East or SE from Eastwatch.
That wasn't the trial yet. More like a hearing. The trial itself is held in the Great Sept and I have a feeling those scenes will be pretty good.
Interested to see what they do with Jon going to Hardhome, as that is a new plotline. Originally he sends the Night's Watch commander from Eastwatch to go, and one of the ravens that comes back has a note from him to the effect of "Dead things in the woods. Dead things in the water" Always liked that line.
I am very intrigued by Littlefinger. He plays everyone so convincingly while working his own agenda. It is hard to tell who he is really trying to help and who he is really trying to destroy, if he is trying to help anyone outside of himself at all. He is arguably the smartest man in Westeros by working his plot through the powers of the other families and letting them take the falls and loses while he bounces around.
I don't want spoilers to this, just commenting on the character.
Just seems like he is playing all sides. If Stanis wins the north, he has set Sansa up as his delegate. If the Boltons defeat Stanis, he has set the Boltons up with Sansa. If the Lannisters turn on the Boltons, he has set himself up as the Warden of the North. He's not complicated, he just looks out for himself. The only unclear thing is whether or not he actually cares for Sansa as Cat's daughter or if he just sees her as a pivotal pawn.
I'm just waiting for him to reveal he is really on Daneary's(sp) side and is setting Westeros against itself to weaken it for when the dragons' baby momma comes to town.
Naw that's Varys.
I would say thats a big spoiler right there, but I guess they have already changed that part of the story as well as it were though. They have already confirmed that they have cut the character that Varys actually was helping the whole time from the show.
Connington?
Which is itself a spoiler because cutting Connington/Aegon essentially means that they aren't important to the overall story, and therefore Aegon is definitely a fake.
Sorry guys, didn't mean to get all spoilery. I guess I figured since show Varys had been taking Tyrion to meet Dany and was talking her up it was fair game.
I didn't mean to imply you spoiled anything. The show did, through its omission of characters. If they ain't important enough to be in the show, they're clearly not the one true king.
(Possible spoilers as I muse about a few things...so in the intervening space I will put this warning so you can skip this comment and not read it if you'd like.)
Has that (or anything in this show) been "confirmed?" I can see clearly how they're streamlining things - Varys basically assumed Illyrio's role in transporting Tyrion across Essos, Jorah is a Connington proxy, e.g. getting Greyscale and, you know, being on a boat with Tyrion, and even the voyage through Valyria is reminiscent of Euron Greyjoy's adventure through the cursed land. It doesn't eliminate the possibility that Griff/Connington and Aegon will be introduced in another manner, maybe not this season, or maybe in the finale. There's always this (some of which seems plausible, some seems like total guesswork): http://winteriscoming.net/2015/03/30/game-of-thrones-season-5-rumors-to-...
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
I think the more interesting thing is what the Aegon removal does to the Martell story. Obviously Arianne and Quenten got cut, which means there is no attempt at winning Dany to come to Dorne to help fight with them.
And the TWOW preview chapters have Arianne traveling to the Stormlands to meet Aegon and propose marriage.
But since neither of those things are happening so far in the show it means Dorne is now going to almost stand alone against King's Landing. Sure it happened before, but like then it will probably lead to what Doran fears most in a souring of the land and visiting death and terror on his people.
And what if Trystane Martell is actually Aegon?
Then we riot.
Though I could sort of see how they would set it up.
Since Doran DID marry a foreigner. Maybe instead of her being from Norvos, they change it to Lys, or Volantis in the Show, where Valyrian blood and appearance arent uncommon still. Thus it would be unremarkable when a child that looks like his mother shows up in Sunspear and then the mother has a falling out with Doran and goes back home.
Would also be a neat parallel, Cersei wanted her Dragon Prince so badly, but its her daughter who gets a secret one.
We are starting to get to a point where the TV show and the book are really going to be two separate entities. There is too much going on in the books that I can't see how Martin could simply drop it altogether without destroying the framework he has built, but a lot of those things are just straight up not in the show (at least not yet). I say "not yet" but the time has come and gone to introduce most of those things.
the book and show will take different journeys to the same endings. Martin's response to the latest episode in regards to Sansa says it best:
Also interesting from his post (http://grrm.livejournal.com/2015/05/18/) is this quote:
So the shows will definitely hint at the broader events/path in the books, even if the details differ.
exactly, which is why, as I stated above Sansa's path has always been to taking over Winterfell.
The issue however is still there in terms of the differences and the fact that the two mediums will seperate in some ways, even if the end is the same.
Lets use the example of Griff/Connington differences from the novel to the show, assuming that they do not appear at all (which is possible, as they have already given Jorah Greyscale instead of Connington, and Varys bypassed the whole "murdering Kevan Lannister, revealing that his goal was to see Aegon on the throne and went straight to trying to get Tyrion to Dany)
It can be implied that if he doesn't appear in the show, then it seems reasonable that he is not who he claims to be. Now if the end result is that Aegon ends up being a false claimant in both cases, thats all well in good. The problem is that he has already landed in Westeros and started stirring up support. Martin can't afford to just not write about that storyline any longer (it would be really really poor storytelling). But that raises the question, if he writes about it, but I already know from the show storyline that nothing comes of it because he has been left out, then why in the heck would I want to spend time reading a story line I already know is going nowhere?
I am not trying to say that people that have read the books are "owed" something. But just because two things might have the same end does not mean that they are the same story.
Simple solution: don't watch the show until after you read the books.
But in your example, I think you are overlooking the other story arc for Aegon. He is truly Aegon and he rises to challenge but fails. His failure could bring about plot points that will get Book storyline to the endings they need to be at, while in the show Aegon is not needed because those characters storylines have been altered for expediency, or otherwise changed to get to their endings without needing Aegon.
I don't know if I would call "wait 5 to 10 years" a simple solution.
But to go back to my point, lets say in that example thats exactly how it works out. Well we are still talking about a completely different story, with totally different plot points. And thats just dealing with one story arc, there are numerous others.
As I said, they in effect become two different entities, even if the ending is the same in both. I didn't say it was a bad thing necessarily, but the potential to create some narrative problems is definetely there.
If you are really concerned about the show spoiling the book then that's really the only solution.
In regards to book vs show storylines, I really don't see the issue. Like you said it's not a bad thing. There is no way they could show everything from the books and that means that the two will in effect be two vastly different retelling of the same story. In a way it's like enjoying the same story twice in different ways. The only problem is when it gets close to the end and the show ends before the book. So again if it bothers anyone they would need to make a choice not to watch the show, but it may be hard to avoid online.
I never said I was worried about it spoiling the book. If anything, its the opposite, in that it seems to be rendering some parts of the book that have already happened somewhat meaningless, or at the very least much more insignificant.
The book still offers some interesting tidbits to solve that the show never will (like what is Coldhands? Is Patchface an actual prophet of some kind? etc) I'm looking forward to those being (hopefully) addressed in some way,even if very small.
No worries. I was using "you" in the general sense.
But I disagree about rendering anything meaningless. Like Martin said they are in essence different stories. I can disassociate one from the other and enjoy both for the most part. They only thing that really affects my reading is that I see the actors faces in my mind while I read. other than that, the book and show are completely separate entities to me so whatever direction the show goes I am cool with because it is simply a completely different version than what I am enjoying in the books. I'm cool with that.
But I can appreciate why others are not.
We couldn't give you spoilers to this even if we wanted to. TV Littlefinger and book Littlefinger both seem to really only be focused on improving their own standing ("Chaos is a ladder").
The paths to achieve whatever those goals might be are different in each medium to this point however. He seems to have the same end goal in either case, but what that is has not been revealed.
I think the way the showrunners have gone though have made it clear that he is using Sansa as a very useful pawn, and what happened to her could end up changing a lot down the road.
Don't worry, no spoilers are available, the Littlefinger/ Sansa stuff is entirely off book at this point. But I think it's pretty clear that no one is above being used by him. It may seem like he was genuine in his interactions with Sansa because she's half Catelyn Tully, but her last name is still Stark and he sure can hold a grudge.
So....with Theon being quietly persecuted by Sansa for "killing her brothers"....it reminded me:
Has Samwell Tarly ever told Jon Snow that he met Bran Stark? Because I don't remember that. Did Jojen Reed tell Sam not to tell Jon?
Sam never tells Jon because he is told not to. Jojen and Bran know that if Jon found out about the journey north, he'd try and intercept them.
in the books sam never tells him and its noticeable how hard it is on him. in the show he does. theres a scene where jon and sam are in the library looking at a map and jon rhetorically asks "how far can a simpleton and a crippled boy go?"
Fire up the Speculate-o-matic...
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-season-6-casting-has-begun-...
Most are fairly obvious. It will be interesting to see where the story goes...
I think I figured out why Tyrion had to be brought to the Dragon Mother.
have you read the books or just watched the show?
I read the first book.
It came nowhere near this point in the story.
The rest has come from watching the show.
It will be interesting to see where they go with that story as that will be all new material. There is a lot of in between fluff in the books about Tyrion getting from Volantis to Meereen, and Tyrion hasn't quite gotten to her yet. I think we can make due without that part of the story though, although it would have been fun to see scenes of Tyrion playing his part as a slave circus dwarf.
I think that Varys and Jorah wanted to take him to her for two very different reasons.
Varys always recognized how much better Tyrion was at command and power than anyone else in King's Landing (with the exception of his father) and also that he is even better at advising people that are in power, but might also be motivated to fight against his own family to aid the Targaryens. In the books it is made crystal clear that Varys intent is to help the Targaryens reclaim the Iron Throne. I think we have enough in the show to assume thats his goal as well.
Jorah is of the opinion that the she will want him to kill him, and she talks in the books a lot about killing the Usurper (her name for Robert) and basically any member of his family or families that aided him (i.e. the Lannisters).
With them offing Barristan and the fact that she doesn't trust Jorah, I would like them to maybe go in the direction of having Tyrion become her advisor as pretty much the only one around her now that knows much of anything about Westeros.
Varys most definitely wants Tyrion to advise Daenerys. I don't know if Jorah really thinks she will kill him, I think he just sees him as a valuable bargaining chip to get back into her fold. Tyrion is an asset whether freely giving advice or being tortured for it. Jorah knows that.
As far as where Tyrion's story goes from here... well, that just depends on how you interpret Tyrion's history.
*Spoilers* I think Tyrion just takes the role of Selmy in the books. He will be the trusted advisor to look over Mereen when she flies off. I think that won't affect too much since I see her coming back after the battle and deciding its time to head to Westeros (maybe bringing Dothraki to help). And since Tyrion and Dany will probably meet in Mereen after the battle in the books and Barristan will probably die during: same conclusion, different path.
I can see this happening. But in regards to Tyrion's story I was referring to something much BIGGER that may be coming at the end.
Yeah I have seen that theory thrown around. Would make sense to fulfill the three headed prophecy. I'm hopeful to say the least.
Yes, I worded my statement very carefully and I think fernley has picked up on that.
This is the only board I have accessed on GOT so, it would not surprise me to be not particularly original.
Given my theory on Jon Snow's real parents, it gets very interesting.
my theory is that he's going to be used to tame the dragons into being rideable weapons of war rather than just wild and destructive beasts. How you might wonder?
By being dangled in front of them on a long stick as a dragon scooby snack that's always just out of reach.
Tyron has other tools to handle the dragons, he just not know it.
I think your theory is slightly off. You're assuming the wrong Lannister child has questionable lineage. If any Lannisters are actually part Targ, it's Jamie and Cersei.
never bought into that. I think Martin purposefully wrote Jamie and Cersei that way because it is more obvious, and distracting from Tyrion's end story.
side note, it fascinates me that we have come to wildly different conclusions within this story.
I think that's why Tyrion is a short man. Nothing in the Lannister lineage points to an genetic deviation like that whereas the other family was inbred. this would provide all kinds of genetic non-dominant characteristics to appear in the line.
Jamie and Cersei are too obvious but, their Dad was a little too wise to have the wool pulled over his eyes like that. He would have looked for any sign of unusual characteristics of the other family's line.
No, Tyrian is the likeable character everyone wants to see continue in the show and succeed and the least likely for someone to suspect is an X-man.
Besides, his hair most resembles Jon than anyone else on the show, now that it's not attacked by a hairdresser daily.
I have no doubt that Tyrion is going to be a major player through the remainder of the series. For one because as you mentioned there are quite a few hints dropped her and there regarding where his story is going. And two, because he is just such a great character. Not that that means your head can't be chopped off in GoT at any time. But I just really can not see his character going on to do anything but great things.
Ok this is pretty funny
That was amazing. I love it when you get to see the cast of a show you watch being friends and enjoying themselves outside of the roles they play on TV.
It also makes the deaths of favorite characters a bit more bearable. To see them laughing/joking around makes me think they are really ok.
You know what's worse than zombies? Zombies who use weapons and tools.
And are fast to boot...
Well...this season definitely had a lull there in the middle.
But "Hardhome" was a great episode.
That was intense.
I would have been rowing my backside off. I would not have been sitting that close to shore, that's for sure.
I am still freaking out. Certainly the best episode this season, many are saying the best of the series thus far. Wow, just wow.
Who knew Valerian Steel was that good?
The notion was brought up in the books, but if I remember you said you had only read book 1 I think.
Yeah, I'm not to this part. It's a little hazy but I know I at least got to the red wedding and Tyrion escaping from the Aery (sp), but definitely not to this season. This is all completely knew to me.
Well this scene wasn't really in the books so it's new to everyone, but in either AFFC or ADWD Sam sees in a book that dragon glass or dragon steel is effective and they wonder if that means Valyrian steel. This episode answered that.
If I am correct, the Targaryeans (Sp) were originally from Valaryia which would imply some sort of dragon related qualities to the metal in Valaryian steel.
Excellent point. I did not put 2 and 2 together there.
Yeah this ended up being a "somewhat hinted at" type of thing for the viewer/reader to put together. Its somewhat implied that anything made using dragon fire could possibly be effective against them, but there is no hard evidence beyond Sam killing the one with obsidian. Sam and Jon have a conversation in A Feast for Crows about an old report that said "dragonsteel" can be used against the Walkers. They think that maybe that could mean Valyrian steel, which they would both be familiar with.
Nobody knew for certain that was the case for Valyrian steel until Jon shattered the Walker (which was just a fantastic piece of action in an overall fantastic battle sequence). His look of surprise mirrored the rest of us more or less.
I couldn't remember, so I had to look it up. Ned's sword was melted down and made into a sword for Jaime (who gave it to Brienne) and Joff (who presumably passed it on to Tommen.)
I didn't know it, but apparently House Tarly also has a Valyrian steel sword. There were rumors last week that for casting for next season, they have cast Samwell's father, the great soldier (and poopy father) who was referenced by Stannis earlier this year.
I think in the book they talk about there being only about 200 in the known world?
I think that was the most ever know to exist, and I think it's mentioned later on that its like less than 20 that are still in Westeros.
You are correct. The swords are considered exceedingly rare. At one time it is probably correct in assuming that each Great House (and possibly some of the larger minor houses) all had 1.
The Starks (Ice) was melted down and made into the 2 swords you referenced by Tywin.
The Lannisters' was lost when the Lord of the house at the time went sailing to the ruins of Valyria to look for more artifacts and was never seen again.
Longclaw - which belonged to the Mormonts and the LC gave to Jon Snow
I believe the books make a very brief mention in passing that Randyll Tarly does in fact have one (and he was one of the only, perhaps only, commander that was able to defeat Robert on the battlefield.
Don't forget that the dagger that Littlefinger said was Tyrion's is believed to be in his possession. That was a Valyrian steel blade as well.
But overall, there are very few remaining that are known.
What is interesting to me is I think it is mentioned at one point that Dragonstone has a lot of obsidian present (which would make sense as the Targeryans made that castle with the aid of their dragons)
I have a feeling they will become exceedingly important.
I have a feeling you are exceedingly correct
There are a few others, but that's a pretty good list....
- Heartsbane is the Tarly sword you mentioned, a two-handed greatsword
- Lady Forlorn, House Corbray, wielded at the moment by Ser Lyn Corbray (allegiant to the Vale)
- Nightfall, House Harlaw, wielded by Ser Harras Harlaw (allegiant to Pyke)
- The two swords made from Ice are named Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail
- Red Rain, House Drumm, also allegiant to Pyke
- There's a list of seven whose fates are unknown, including Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon I Targaryen, which was given to Daemon, who rose in the rebellion named for his sword. Would be interesting if that one made it back across the Narrow Sea, and eventually made it's way into Aegon's hands...
Valyrian Steel at AWOIAF
Randall Tarly is basically your stereotypical high school football coach. When i read the books I actually pictured his face as the face of my high school football coach.
The best part is they are casting the Tarly's for next season! Which means either they come the KL, or as in the book he takes over at Duskendale. Or we get to see the Reach.
Wait what about actual dragons being used to save Westeros from the walkers!
Yeah, the logical conclusion here is that some queen has some dragons. Dragons kills white walkers. These dragons specifically can't be controlled. We have an uber-warg training all season north of the wall so that 'He can fly.'
So at some point Jon needs to find out that Bran is a super warg, he needs to find out he's a Targaryean, he needs to contact his sister....no...aunt?... to borrow her dragons, Bran needs to fly the dragons to save the world, Dany becomes Queen and marries.....Tyrion? And, of course, Samwell lives happily ever after.
oddly enough i am very OK with this entire storyline.
I'd be okay with all of that except Dany being queen. She's been shown as far too trusting, and thereby easier to manipulate. Her only claim is her name, which if the prevailing theory is correct, means precisely dick when Jon is revealed as a Targ, because in a Targaryan line, he would then become the successor. It won't matter that he has taken the black, because his claim merely would serve to undercut Dany's, thereby diminishing Targaryan support as a whole. Not to mention that Dany becoming queen of Westeros is FAR too predictable for GRRM's tastes. Given his love of making us all say "what the fuck," I'd like to think my favorite candidate for the throne has a better chance than most. That person is Petyr Baelish.
I don't think that even if Jon is revealed to be Targaryen (which I personally believe he will be) it would undercut Dany's claim. Aemon took the black and it didn't undercut the Targaryen claim, even though he would have been king otherwise. The people in Westeros understand what the oath of the Night's Watch mean.
I think bigger picture, securing the Iron Throne won't mean squat, as we saw Sunday there are much bigger things to worry about. I also liked Tyrion's line "Perhaps you should want something else." from the episode.
Dany does not seem like she gives a phuck about Westerosi traditions, so I doubt even Jon was deemed higher in succession order that it would mean she would in any way abdicate what she had won.
.
In reply to both you and AZ above,
I'm not saying she'll back down from her claim, or that Jon would press his, I'm saying that Jon being revealed as the son of Rhaeghar would complicate and confuse things for the mythical Targaryen supporters, and would cause a divide. That divide in support would essentially end any chance she has at actually assuming the throne. That differs greatly from the Aemon example, when Targs were already in power. Given that Dany has only a small plurality of support as is, fracturing that plurality would lead to it being irrelevant. Also given that she cares about her image and being a good, motherly queen, I think we can discount the idea of her trying to take Westeros by force, even with dragons (which she has lost control of) and an army of mercenaries (which she can't transport).
And AZ, you're right. I liked that conversation a lot, and I'm hoping it leads to her making the more prudent decision to stay in Essos.
There is no way she stays in Essos. That would be a terrible end to the story. So much build up for nothing. Total anti-climax.
I don't see that Jon would divide anything. He has already turned down Lord of Winterfell. I don't see him trying to gather support from Targ followers and dividing the house.
And, wow we just disagree a lot, how do you not see her taking it by force? I am not saying she's gong to lay waste all the realms with Dragon fire but there's going to be some serious blood spilled getting Dany to the Iron Throne.
I'm simplifying, but I could see it being made to work with her staying there.
I'm not saying Jon will actively do anything, I'm saying supporters of a Targaryen ruler would be divided in who they supported, whether or not that person sought that support.
And I agree, there would have to be a ton of bloodshed to get her in power. And a lot of that would be collateral damage. I think Dany has grown to understand that concept and isn't willing to launch an attack that would kill extreme numbers of people, many of whom would be innocents. We've seen that she doesn't mind very targeted, almost surgical violence against specific people, but she doesn't give any indication of wanting a protracted war that will be devastating to all.
Its an interesting question in that in the books there already are two Targaryen claimants to the throne. So we don't really know how that support could potentially be divided.
With that said, the show has already gone the path of having people that could actually assist in ruling Westeros (primarily Varys and Tyrion) already going down the path of supporting Dany.
"I will seize what is mine, by fire and blood."
Pretty sure she's willing to slaughter anyone who gets in her way. Sure, she won't just blanket target anyone (e.g. burning Flea Bottom for the hell of it) but anyone in an enemy's army is going to be fried if she has her way about it.
That quote was from a long time ago, and she's grown a lot since then.
"I don't intend to stop the wheel. I intend to break it."
Sounds to me like she has no problem laying the wood down as necessary.
Yea, I'm pretty sure she has some rather radical reforms in mind for the Westerosi power structure when she makes her homecoming. Not to mention, she's spent the entire series learning the limits of different kinds of political/tactical power.
Here's the deal tho... the real confrontation will be with the White Walkers. That's the real fire and blood. And when that's all said and done, what will be left standing?
Not sure Dany's even aware of what's going on north of the wall, or has ever been introduced to the history.
well, the books are called "A Song of Ice and Fire"
Yes, you are correct. that's the big showdown that is the culmination of all things, hence why "Winter is Coming" is so important. Dany may not be aware but she is the only one witht he tools to deal with the problem.
Right, I guess my point is that her designs on 'breaking the wheel,' crushing all the major houses, and birthing a great society in Westeros will pretty quickly take a a back seat to 'the only war that matters.'
Besides I think ice and fire is just an apropos metaphor for good and evil (captain obvious here).
Ice and Fire has a lot to do with the history within GOT. yes, good and evil. But reading beyond that it has to do with the battle between Winter and Valyria the opposing great old powers. And it has to do with the rebirth of Azhor Ahai. That reborn person who in Dany's vision Rhaegar says 'his will be the song of ice and fire.' A savior born of ice and fire... who could that be? (rhetorical question)
As far as breaking the wheel, I believe you answered your own question. Westeros is pretty damn crushed by its own warring already though the houses are not borken, yet. Except for the Starks. But with more warring, then Dany's arrival and then still with the arrival of Winter... by the time all that is ended Westeros is going to be a ghost town. And Dany's to remold.
I guess I'm assuming she gets to Westeros sooner than you are, and that there will still be some semblance of the old order in place that she must work with. You may be right though.
I don't think it will be too long after Dany arrives that Winter will have officially come. The books are meant to be close to ending, though I have no idea how, so she's gonna have to get over there and then start melting som White Walker ass pretty damn soon. But point taken.
I think she has no problem laying the wood down on some noble houses. Not so much on the common folk.
Ok well let's break it down to the major houses:
Martell: 100% behind Dany. Anything to see the North burn.
Greyjoy: Independent. Though I can see them aligning against Dany.
Lannister: 100% against
Stark: I believe once Jon is known then definitely for.
Baratheon: In shambles, if Stannis is still alive will be against. But does he have support in Storm's End?
Tyrell: I believe for, and specifically against the Lannisters
Tully: In line with Starks, for.
The Vale: Tough call... ultimately if Petyr is still pulling strings they play both sides but ultimately he chooses the winning side, so for.
War will be inevitable. There is no way Dany, Tyrion or anyone advising her would believe otherwise. With war comes collateral damage which I am sure she understands. I doubt she is claiming the Iron Throne with the idea that she is going to land in Westeros and walk untouched into King's Landing to sit on it.
My speculation is that it's all going to come to a boiling point where the above major houses and all the alliances with them are warring, when the White Walker's and their army of undead breach the wall. Then all the houses will come together and fight under one Ruler to rid Westeros of Winter's army, and that ruler will be the one with dragons.
You've created the fallacy that its a choice only between those two. I'm talking only about people who would support Targaryen rule at all, of which there are few. All the other major players vying for the throne will draw their own support, and likely would not back either Dany or Jon.
I think you are creating the fallacy that there is another viable choice. Name one other viable candidate for the throne for other Houses to support. Tommen is the only one. While by blood he is a Lannister, he is a Baratheon by name. So he hold's support from Lannisport and Storm's End. EVERYONE is tired of the Lannisters and I don't see Storm's End rallying much support after having their armies decimated by being divided 3 ways between Joffery, Renly and Stannis. am i missing someone?
You could argue Gendry will be found as Robert's true son, but is all the Realms going to back a bastard against the dragon queen and/or Tommen? Nope. Gendry will get Storm's End possibly.
Going along with fernley, who else would the other players choose, let alone be able to draw the resources to support?
The plot to this point has made it pretty clear that the War of the Five Kings and the various other scheming has left most of Westeros completely unprepared for winter, both the actual winter cold, and on a higher level the ability to deal in any way shape or form with the White Walkers.
The Lannisters primary source of power, their gold, is running out. The mines are empty. All 3 of the heirs have, shall we say, significant hurdles to ruling.
The Tullys, well the Riverlands were pretty much scorched earth at this point due to all the fighting there. Nobody knows where the Blackfish is.
The Tyrells - Mace Tyrell is worthless.
Baratheons - They would support Stannis perhaps. But I could see Stannis biting it against the Walkers as I think Melisandres prophecy about him is false.
Boltons - no one will support Roose or Ramsey. Especially once its discovered that there are more Stark children left alive than just Sansa. The North remembers.
Agreed
Pure speculation on Melisandres... She never believed in Stannis (or was mistaken that it was him). There was no prophecy about him, rather about another. She knew she needed him and his army for something more. To help Jon.
After Hardhome, I would say war is most definitely not inevitable. At least between humans. I'm foreseeing a apocalyptic event, wights jumping off The Wall, people totally freaked out. And the only way to fix that is for Bran to harness the dragons. Once that happens, and the connections between Jon and Bran and Tyrion and Sansa and Dany are all there, then I could see everyone getting behind the Queen who saved civilization.
Also, I'm wondering which Lannisters are left. The Faith will eventually de-legitimize Tommen, Cersei is a wreck with no clear path for her to regain anything, Jaime may end up a free agent.....where his strongest connection is to his brother, who is on Dany's side.
But I really like the idea that Littlefinger wins in the end. I have no idea how he would do that, but I like it.
yeah, I can see the more kumbaya ending happening but that would be a let down IMO, given the amount of warring that has taken place already for the Iron Throne it should end that way as well. I'm not saying there's going to be years of war or anything, rather Dany lands, everyone picks sides, starts warring and then attention is diverted north.
Kumbaya? I'm expecting 75%+ of the characters we now know to be dead from the wights.
Martin always said his original vision for the series was to have most of the characters eventually die.
I was really afraid the white walker was going to kill Jon Snow this week. I yelled at the TV.
Indeed.
Not the Wights.
Something tells me that they probably knew, just did not expect to run into any dragonsteel (or dragon glass in Sam's case) among the Wildings. Bear in mind they were defeated and driven back once before, so its likely to assume they have had to deal with either dragon fire or items forged with dragon fire at some point.
Maybe its just me, but I thought the sequence with the Wildling chieftain (who I liked and wish we could have seen more scenes with her) looking up and staring down all of the little kid wights was one of the creepiest things I have ever seen on TV.
Looks like they saved the CGI budget for the end of the season
so was I the only dreamer still left looking for signs of Benjen last night? Either as part of the WhiteWalker army or as some non-zombified hero?
just watched last nights episode and wow. that was one of the craziest battle sequences that the show has even had. well done.
While I loved the episode, that battle scene pissed me off. They've repeated over and over since Jon kills the one at Castle Black in Season 1 that fire kills the zombies. But except for the giant at the end, no one uses fire to fight them. This is an army of wildlings who burn their dead so that they don't come back with blue eyes, but this one time were not prepped with fire and didn't even try to light arrows or anything? It's complete bullshit and oversight/negligence by the showrunners and it will keep this episode from being a top episode for me.
Fire doesn't kill them technically speaking, It just makes it so there isn't anything left of them to be brought back by the White Walker's magic. Just as the use of regular arrows and swords wasn't "killing" them, just relieving them of their fighting effectiveness.
They wern't prepared for an attack period, so I don't know how its an oversight of the showrunners to not have bonfires going everywhere. And its not like you just stick a metal arrowhead into a fire and it comes out flaming. You have to prepare arrows to be ignited too.
I thought about that at first, but it didn't bother me as the scene went on. It was one of complete panic with no one really in charge outside of the few men with Jon and Tormund. Besides, if they ignited enough of them the only thing it would have really accomplished would have been burning their walls down faster.
Ok, I loved the episode. The battle scene was amazing. Jon's fight, fantastic. The giant, awesome. Lord of Bones getting clobbered into the ground, funny. But I rolled my eyes a bit at the zombie people. I don't know if those were really walkers or just dead remains that had been reanimated. I say that because as I have read and the show had depicted it always seemed as if the walkers were intelligent and had order like an army. Not simply ravenous dead looking to rip you limb from limb. It was seriously cool to see but the plethora of zombie usage over recent years had me hoping for something different here.
The battle was with raised dead. I had always thought of them as more organized as well but I could see why that would be a formidable army. I am curious how the white walkers become white walkers vs their undead army.
I have seen this expressed a view times on various message boards today.
I think there is some confusion about what the White Walkers are VS what the wights are. The Walkers themselves do seem to have a good deal of intelligence/order/hierarchy/significant magical prowess. The reanimated dead are not White Walkers.
As far as the wights, both the books/show have given me the impression that they basically behave in whatever manner the Walkers controlling them decide. Whether thats shambling slow and methodically (the wight that attacked the Lord Commander in season 1 was not going hyper crazy, but almost seemed to be seeking out Mormont), or moving quickly. The wights last night also didn't seem to be interested in ripping anyone limb from limb. The female Wilding that was killed by the little kids, it made it first seem like they were eating her, but when she got back up at the end she really didn't look chewed up at all. It looked more like they were just trying to kill people so they could be brought back as more wights than actually eating them.
I think about last night when Jon was looking up at the "leader" of the White Walkers, and all of the wights started barreling over the side of the mountain. It seemed very much to me like a "Look at what I can make them do" type of moment.
I know there is a difference between the wights and walkers. I am talking for in form. And by rip limb from limb I mean more in savagery. What I am others I have seen say is that the form of the wights in terms of look, action and mindlessness is all zombie-esque. While what I had been hoping for was something different. An organized army of Walkers and Wights and other magical creatures, specifically not zombie-esque.
So spoilers here
but just rewatched last nights episode and the commentary afterwards and they called the white walker that did all of the reanimating and watching the night king.
For those that don't know he was mentioned in the books and he's a legend of an old nights watch leader who went crazy and married a white walker and went off to the north
Not so much of a spoiler. HBO accidentally called him the Night's King last season ("Oathkeeper" episode) before revising their viewer's guide to just say "a white walker." So now they're just owning up to their information leak.
Yeah but people weren't sure whether or not it was just a mistake or a spoiler and I think that pretty much seals the deal
I wouldn't even call it a spoiler even with HBO accidentally leaking the name last year.
For the most part, the Night King in the books is mentioned offhand like so many countless other historical figures. The show has revealed infinity times more about him than the books ever did.
Now what is interesting....and this is entering spoilerish territory albeit pure speculation on the part of characters in the book...is that The Night King was a member of House Stark. Stressing again that is pure speculation by characters in the story, and not related to anything the book vs. show has revealed. Brings up the interesting question of whether the Walkers retain memories, and if he would recognize a member of the Stark family like Jon, as he clearly was paying attention to him during the entire battle.
Now I'm curious, because all I remember was that the Starks helped defeat the Night's King, do you have source? I feel like I've forgotten so much from the books.
Im the Source.
The NK is supposedly the 13th Lord Commander. He one day finds a Blue Eyed Pale skin woman North of the Wall and brings her back to the Night Fort as it was still the HQ back then. After a short time he has all of the other brothers under his sway and names himself King, along with some disturbing blood magic rumors.
The Starks actually have to ally with the King Beyond the Wall to defeat him and restore the Watch(Implying that the Watch was at least LESS antagonistic to the Wildlings at that point).
His family name is lost, possibly Bolton, Dustin, Mormont, Umber, but Old Nan claims when telling Bran the story he was the younger brother of the King in the North and a Stark.
And once again Dylan spits hot fire.
Yes this. Old Nan telling stories to Bran. I think in the tales the Night King was also named Bran (or Brandon) Stark, which seems to be a pretty common family name.
Another tidbit, the Wildling King the Starks unite with to defeat him was named Joramun, who originally possessed the Horn that Mance Rayder was looking for.
Ah yes I forgot about the identity of the KBtW! And if his horn truly does have the power to both : Wake the Giants from their slumber. And: Bring down parts of the Wall, or somehow tamper with the magic in it.
Then that likely would have been key to stopping what seems to have been an attempt at subterfuge from the Others or an attempt to change up their tactics. And a good reason with the King in the North would make common cause.
Anyone else suspicious of who is rowing Jon's boat? Why fully hood someone?
No, but I am suspicious that Olly will be the one to whack him. Or at least try to take him out.
Based on the scene with Sam and Olly, and the fact that it's all stewards in the book that do the deed, I think you're definitely on to something.
So the 30 sec preview we got shows Jon and the refugees showing up North of the Wall at Castle Black and Thorne looking like a dick at the main observation deck area, take from that what you will.
My larger question is why the fuck are they on that side of the wall to start? If Stannis's fleet returned to Eastwatch then either they couldve marched safety South of the Wall or even atop it if needs be. But why North? Stannis only went on that side to place his army to do the most damage and achieve complete surprise over Mance.
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. If you escape a zombie army, put that giant ice wall between yourself and said zombie army.
The Wall always seemed to have a distinct problem. Which is either end of it where it meets the sea. I realize back in the day they had a fleet of ships patrolling the waters but in it's current state I'm not sure they have many, if any. So if I was Mance I would have taken my Army around the wall and not right to the wall.
For the White Walker you would think they would have the ability to survive the cold of waling on ice sheets etc. Maybe even be able to create an ice bridge to advance around the wall.
nitpicking but something I always thought about.
That's what I said to my wife after the show. "If their weapons are so cold that they can shatter steel, dip one in the sea and freeze it over. Then just fight it out on the ice. But noooooooo, he just watches Jon float away."
There must be something there that we just don't know yet.
I remember in the stories Nan told about the Long Night, that the Children of the Forest ended up using some type of magic that caused waves to in effect destroy the ice bridge that existed from Westeros to Essos. It was the same magic they used to try and use water to separate the North from the rest of Westeros, which ended up creating the swamps around Moat Cailin.
Maybe there is some kind of magic on the water that prevents the Walkers from doing that, as I always thought the fleets were there to patrol for Wildling ships. Who knows.
I know in the books the commander from Eastwatch clearly writes in his letter to Jon when he goes to Hardhome that there are "dead things in the water", so it seems like the wights at least wouldn't have an issue going in.
Where they come from, The Land of Always Winter, there is no water since it is all frozen. So the White Walkers never learned how to swim and therefore can't get the wights to swim. However, their hockey league is incredible.
Yeah, this seems to be where they are going. But to get to that point in two episodes is probably rushing it. (but they've rushed a lot of shit this year)
Unless it's Coldhands who cares?
Seriously though, I can't imagine any character they would want to hide. Especially not Benjen, considering Jon would have
recognized him immediately
Edit: so watch it be Benjen
Maybe its Daario? We know he at some point needs to find a boat to get to Pyke and change his name to Euron so it makes sense!
did it strike you as odd? Maybe I need to look back at the other boats leaving, maybe there was a hooded "boat guy" in each one of them.
Everyone talks about the battle, but I thought one of the more underrated moments of the episode was when Theon (No, it's Reek!) let slip that he killed two farm boys, not Sansa's brothers. Hence, Sansa at least has hope that her brothers are still alive somewhere.
Agreed. Huge moment. Not just because of the hope it provided Sansa. I don't think anyone outside of Roose and Ramsey knew that the 2 Stark boys were still alive (or at the very least unaccounted for)
But it also shows that a sliver of Theon is still there. If he was all Reek he would have never told her that. Not that he is a character that particularly deserves redemption, I can see his redemption being an important piece of Sansa storyline.
Hopefully I wasn't the only one thinking this when I watched:
Edit: changed to gif form. Thanks guys.
More like:
What's the significance of his uniform? That broche (?) must have some specific reference.
Could just be symmetry, and an evil/ Cold counterpoint to the Ruby Melisandre wears around her neck which has magical powers.
The question is why even wear armor at all? Its been shown that conventional weapons shatter when they touch a Walker or take a swing from one of their weapons.
It also shows that the Walkers shatter instantly at the touch of dragonglass or now Valyrian steel.
So it must have some significance, because we have now seen White Walkers in several different manners of dress.
He's named as the Night's King, so his battle dress could be a remnant of when he was the Lord Commander, assuming HBO sticks to that narrative.
Was trying to find this gif without text. Had to settle for the jpeg
Am I the only one that thought of the deadites?
You know nothing Jon Snow, you just need to say, "Klaatu Barada Nikto."
Edit:
So I just watched the first scene of the first episode to see what was going on with those wights/white walkers. Can someone who has read the books explain what's going on there? Wildlings were butchered by....whom?
Correct, you nailed it 100%.
That is the prologue of the book as well. So even the readers are going into it with zero clue about who or what the Nights Watch or the walkers are. Its assumed that White Walkers came and killed the Wildlings.
Once they killed them, they raised them as wights, which are the corpses with the blue eyes. The wights are who the Night's Watch runs into first, specifically the little girl in the scene in the show. As they are running from them, they run into the White Walkers. Brother Royce is the guy they kill, and then he is is brought back as a wight who kills one of the other members of the group. The 3rd guy gets away but is eventually exectued by Ned for deserting.
So what was up with the butchering and the specific shape the body parts were arranged in?
Short answer. No clue.
Guess at an answer. It has some sort of "religious" significance or ritual that the White Walkers were performing. We really have no idea what type of society they have in place, but it seems like there is more to them then just hanging out on dead horses in the woods, especially now that we have seen some wearing distinctive armor and there is certainly a leadership hierarchy, as well as the ritual that revealed them turning the little baby into a White Walker.
Melisandre says that they are servants of the dark god that is in opposition to her Lord of Light. That leads me to believe there was some sort of ritualistic implication to it. (Or maybe it was just for creepy effect on screen, I can't recall exactly if its described like that in the book)
My best guess is definitely blood magic. If they truly are servants of The great Other, then they likely tap into the same dark power the Maz Dur used when she performed her ritual of Drogo and Rhaego.
Maybe it gives them progressively more power to control more dead.
Possible blood magic. Same thing that happened with the dead at the Fist of the First Men.
We know that blood magic is alive and well in Planetos, remember when Dany got the witch to try to save Drogo?
So it could be maybe a ritual to improve the Others/WW's abilities, or perhaps boost their ability to control the dead.
Another note is that the Patrol Commander who is killed is Wymar Royce. His father, Bronze Yohn Royce is one of the main Lords of the Vale and was the larger dude with the chest plate on who questions Littlefinger in the show. Sansa recalls their meeting at Winterfell when Wymar goes to join the Watch to prove her identity.
The book version of his death is pretty manly too. When he runs into a clearing he sees a single Other and slowly sees he is surrounded, then takes out his sword, takes off his heavy cloak and with a cry of "Dance with me then" proceeds to do his best to fight one.
I think you are on to something with the blood magic. It makes a lot of sense now especially as the "leader" of the Walkers has been revealed to be the Night King.
Assuming that Night King is THE Night King talked about in the books (and no reason to think otherwise), he used blood magic extensively to bring the brothers of the Watch under his control at the Nightfort.
Very true. Also fits what we know of ancient First men based on Bran's vision of the blood sacrifice at Winterfell.
And ya know a man becoming a WW probably takes a good deal of blood magic.
In season 4 the Night King turns the baby into a white walker with the touch of his finger. There are some youtube videos out there with some people giving their interpretation and reasoning based on other things stated in the books (mostly Old Nan's stories)
One thing that was pointed out was that the baby was Craster's son and it was his 99th son. He "sacrificed" them to the white walkers (He is clearly a follower of the dark god) so that means there are at least 100 white walkers out there. The Night King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's watch which means he is roughly 8000 years old so it appears they have been slowly rebuilding their ranks.
Good catch.
At this point there really is no way to know how many actual White Walkers there are. How many fled to the Land of Always Winter after the First Men and the Children of the Forest were able to drive them back and raise the Wall? How many new ones have been made (I would think it possible that they have been taking Wildling babies from all over north of the Wall, not just Craster's)?
I think it would be very interesting if there really are only a few hundred, or perhaps 100 total. That would make the use of dragonglass or Valyrian steel a lot more viable in that even killing 1 White Walker takes at a meaningful % of their ranks. Because otherwise, as the last scene in Hardhome suggested, their wight army will just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And the wights can clearly A) Pass beneath the Wall, which the White Walkers supposedly can not due to the magic, and B) Still be under their control even ont he other side of the wall. So the Walkers technically don't even need to get past the Wall to F stuff up.
Question: which book and where in that book is the Night's King mentioned? I was looking through AGOT last night and I couldn't find it.
He is mentioned in ASOS as Bran is heading north. He recalls Old Nan telling him the stories. It's Old Nan that tells him that the Night King was a Stark and named Brandon. No evidence if thats the case or not, just what she tells him in her story.
I forget at exactly which point he brings it up, its just a brief mention as they are heading towards the Night Fort before they run into Sam and Gilly.
That patrol commander looked like a young, british Mark Wahlburg. And the guy who got away looked like a young Dwight Yoakam.
This is a good thread
Rewatched the episode last night.
We may not have been able to see, for very long, the face of the hooded guy but it was broad open to Jon for a long time. If it was someone he needed to recognize, everyone in the boat could see,
I think it was just an extra, not an important personality.
Yeah when rewatching the last 20 minutes, I was paying particular attention to that part. My wife even remarked that there is a point where you can see his face briefly, and Jon clearly would have been able to.
I think it was just an odd way it ended up being filmed, but doubt at this point its anyone of significance. I don't see how they would reveal it in the next episode even if it was, would feel very disjointed.
Also of interesting to note, because I had forgotten (currently half-way through book 4), Brienne has a Valyrian Sword, so that leads me to believe she'll remain an important piece of the puzzle for awhile at least.
Yea she has Jamie's, which used to be half of Ned's.
"A Song of Ice and Fire" ... Ned's sword was named Ice, Valyrian steel is forged with dragon fire...there's something here.
Spoiler: Except doesn't Brienne get killed by a re-animated Catlyn Stark in the book?
And doesn't Tywin Lannister use something other than dragon fire when he melts down Ice and re-forges it into two swords?
Brienne's storyline is on a cliffhanger, IIRC. Not clear if she was killed.
Also the making of Valyrian steel requires dragon fire, but once it has been forged it can be reworked, also IIRC. Tywin says there are few smiths left in the world that know how to manipulate Valyrian steel.
Due to the jacked up timeline of the last few chapters in the books it goes basically.
1. Brienne, Pod, and the other dude get captured by the Brotherhood, after she blacks out after being attacked by Rorge and Biter and freaking out upon meeting Gendry.
2. She is offered the choice of "Sword" or "Noose" by Stoneheart, either she kills Jamie or they all hang. She picks sword as Pod is being strung up. This is at the end of A Feast for Crows.
3. Then an entire book later in Jamie's last chapter in A Dance of Dragons she shows up at his camp in the Riverlands claiming "The Hound" has Sansa a days ride away and will kill her if he does not aid her personally, and they depart in the night.
Since AFFC and ADOD run mostly concurrently not all that much time has actually passed.
I remember a while back reading somebodies well put together theory that Coldhands was the Night King, something like he had been turned into a wight as he fell in love with a white Walker, but ended up somehow coming out from under their control.
Always thought it was a neat theory, but since they didn't put CH in the show sadly I am guessing not. It will be a shame if we never find out in the books who or what he is.
The Ides of Marsh are come Lord Commander, but not gone.
Get Hype everybody!
I really can not wait for Sunday's episode. From what I have heard as possible endings for Ep 9 & 10, I think people that have not touched the books at all will love it if thats the way it goes from a sheer "Holy shit!" standpoint
I think this week is pretty sure to be Dany taking a break from all her worries.
Then I guess next week we have "The Walk" and possibly "For the Watch" and a resolution to whatever Stannis is gonna do with Shireen.
I doubt we get Theon' "We Flew" moment of redemption this season but that isn't outside the realm too I guess.
Stannis the Mannis needs to take a chill pill, holy shit
Seen a lot of stuff on this show, had to leave the room. Little much for me.
Thought that was just terrible characterization. Stannis has never been an evil character. Jackass, hard ass, "by the book", sure...but never outright delusional and borderline psycho evil. I think the producers messed that up badly.
Love the show, but part of me feels like they are trying so hard to be unpredictable that it is becoming predictable.
It's not unpredictable at all... Stannis was stuck. His men were freezing. Supplies burned. Horses slaughtered. Without 'divine intervention' he was going to freeze and/or starve to death along with Shireen and the rest of the army.
The show notes following the episode make it clear that Stannis' most prominent characteristic is stubbornness, not necessarily duty or honor.
I meant in the sense that the show runners want to be shocking. But they are now going so off the rails that the "shock" just isn't even that anymore.
As for Shireen, we literally see a few episodes ago Stannis giving a very moving and eloquent speech to her directly about his love for her. The next time we really see her, he is having her led to the stake. Bad bad characterization. Stubborn, yes. But he has never been portrayed as stubborn to the point of murdering his own daughter. His stubbornness has always been tied to his sense of honor and duty. I guess they were trying to portray that here, just IMO that failed miserably at it.
That was exactly what they were hoping you'd get from that. In that scene where he hugged her, we saw a soft side of Stannis that up until that point had not been present. It was so obvious that she was going to be killed once they showed them hugging, because this show has consistently built relationships that get ripped apart prematurely.
By him making this decision we are seeing that he is now starting to lose his way and reason simply because his path to the throne is getting farther and farther away each day.
Not necessarily directed at you, but as a general for fans watching the show, I can't stand the sudden outrage at Thrones for having controversial and gruesome scenes this season. Do we not remember that in episode 9 of season 3, a pregnant woman had her stomach knifed open? It's not exactly a new theme.
that scene just highlights the sacrifices he's willing to make in the name of duty/honor/pragmatism. He considers himself the King of Westeros and as such it's his duty to do everything in his power to destroy the usurpers and gain control over the seven kingdoms. That includes sacrificing his daughter who he cares deeply for. But a Good King (tm) wouldn't put his daughter before his kingdom.
Remember, Melisandre has warned that if Stannis doesn't sit upon the Iron Throne, the White Walkers will lay waste to Westeros. Stannis firmly belives that 1) he's the rightful king and 2) if he fails westeros is lost
I don't think it can be argued at this point whether or not Stannis is a "good King". He wasn't before this incident and he certainly isn't after. What this shows is that all he really cares about is getting the throne, when his intentions did originally begin more honorably than that.
I also think it can be argued that Stannis himself did not think this was the proper course of action. If he was so convinced that this HAD to be done, and had the strength of conviction to feel that whatever sacrifice he made was the "right thing to do"...then why send away Davos before doing it? Because Stannis is a coward at his heart, and he has already failed, and I think he knows it deep down.
He sent Davos away because he knew that Davos would interfere and have to be imprisioned / executed for disobeying his King. A dead Davos is of no use to King Stannis.
Yes and he knew that Davos would interfere because what he was doing was wrong. I agree that part of the reason he sends him off (making up the excuse as to why a raven wouldn't suffice) is because he did want to protect him in some fashion. But it still goes to the heart of the matter that he knew he had to get Davos out of the picture in order to do this terrible deed, because Davos wouldn't stand by and just let it happen.
The end result is the same. Davos might as well be dead now for all the good he will do Stannis moving forward. Davos is committed to him, but he is not a blind follower. He was the voice of reason in that camp, and always has been. I can't see any scenario where Davos returns to his service after this.
Stannis is the King with an obligation to save Westeros from the White Walkers, to do that he believes has to unite the seven kingdoms under his banner, and giving up isn't an option. Is he crazy to think that? Maybe. But either way he's a brutal pragmatist.
Davos is a regular guy with a good moral compass who can't see the forest for the trees. He's a former pirate who has survived by fleeing when the odds weren't in his favor. His advice is to retreat to the wall for the winter instead of pressing on toward winterfell. Well guess what Duhvos, this winter isn't the typical 3-5 year affair. It's the winter of the white walkers. It's not going to end without the entire strength of Westeros rallied to defend the wall.
And yet Davos plan of action to stay at the Wall would have been the correct one, as evidenced by the fact that Stannis is now up the creek with no realistic path out of the shit beyond "Lets try burning my daughter"
And just because a character believes in something so strongly they are willing to commit horrible acts to achieve it doesn't mean that they are right or justified in those actions. And its not like Stannis on his own had some big epiphany that he was chosen to fight back the dark. He ego was fed by someone who's true motivations we don't fully know yet. This also happens to be the same person telling him he needs to sacrifice his daughter.
Stannis is not an honorable or admirable character, which is a pretty big departure from how he appears in thousands of pages of a story that already exists. With that said, even if that characterization didn't already exist and bias the conversation a little bit, the show really has not built him up as this desperate madman that he was last night.
uh... dude had his brother killed with black magic. He put his own people to the fire who would not follow Rhollar. And despite everyone knowing Joffery/Tommen as incest kids it is not proven. If he was so honor bound he would still be serving Tommen now. Stannis has been throughout the book spiralling into his own madness whereby he believes he is the world's savior, simply because a preistess tells him so. That's some SERIOUS pride issues. What Stannis is on the show is not a big departure at all. It is simply where he has always, from the very first page he appeared, been headed to go.
The ONLY people book Stannis has burned are those whom have directly acted against him, the Florents after the Blackwater when they tried opening up back channel negotiations to save themselves. And in the Blizzard he only burns some men found to be beating their own dead. Even AFTER that as the march continues he refuses further burnings, "Peasebury, Cobb, Foxglove, and other southron lords urged the king to make camp until the storm had passed. Stannis would have none of that. Nor would he heed the queen's men when they came to urge him to make an offering to their hungry red god.
That tale she had from Justin Massey, who was less devout than most.
"A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."
"Half my army is made up of unbelievers," Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."
And as established Stannis and Jon Arryn discovered the secret about Cersei's children at the same time and Stannis was wise enough to flee, so NO honor does not dictate that he bend the knee to Tommen.
He has never been an enthusiastic supporter of the Red God, they are called the QUEEN'S MEN after all. Hell even when Davos and the secular 'Kings Men" spirit Edric Storm away on page or Gendry on screen he does not make an alternative sacrifice, he does not extract vengeance or seek the Red God's forgiveness for losing his sacrifice.
I think the show is just speeding up Stannis's progression to where he accepts that he has to sacrifice something he cares about to be successful. It's easy for him to kill/burn the guys earlier in the story, because like you said they are traitors, enemies, and/or simply people that he doesn't care about. Shireen marks a big step forward in what Stannis is willing to give up to save Westeros.
The book makes it seem that his devotion to the Red God is more a matter of convenience than true conviction. He understands that it is a useful tool to achieve his goals, but you are right he is not terribly keen on just burning everyone.
Yes he did kill Renly with black magic, but viewed through the lense of his justification that Renly was in effect a criminal by making his claim to the throne over Stannis himself. I didn't say that he was necessarily a "good guy", just that his character is consistent, and his strong feeling of honor ties into that consistency. He believes that criminals and treasonous people should be punished. I.E. Cutting off Davos' fingers even though the Onion Knight literally saved his life, he still did it by being a criminal. To date we havn't seen him kill anyone that he has viewed as "innocent" in his world view.
In the show, as continues to be my main point, they have gone completely against this characterization with this move. You really can't say "Yeah but its just a matter of time before he would have done this in the book anyway." There is no evidence that is the case. He has gone to great lengths to make it clear he would not sacrifice her. He has planned an entire contingency plan to protect Shireen if something happens to him, because he is afraid that the more zealous followers would have her killed as sacrifice to appease the Red God if he dies. Thats not even to mention that right now in the book, he specifically leaves Shireen at the Wall so she is not in danger. They are in an equally dire situation snowed in outside of Winterfell and he doesn't go that route in the book, so again I don't think you can just say "yeah but it will happen eventually." Perhaps it will, but its not a strong argument at this point.
No evidence except that bit about the author, George RR Martin, telling the producers, D&D, that it happens in the forthcoming book(s).
Supposedly. There is no quote from Martin to say definitively one way or the other. And reading further into that story, it sounds more than likely that Shireen may meet her end in the flavor of "Lightbringer being plunged into her chest" variety, which would fit much closer to the AA mythos thats been constructed.
Either way, whether something may or may not happen at some later date in a story is no excuse for bad storytelling now. The Stannis in neither medium is at the point where killing his daughter would have been made in such a way without sufficient development.
I never understood that line of thinking. Stannis has been convinced he's the savior of Westeros and if he doesn't take the Iron Throne the world is doomed. Melisandre has convinced him of this. Her magic has also always worked in his favor. He's given the choice of sacrificing his daughter or failing to take Winterfell and possibly having his men starve before Winter comes. He think he's trading her for victory over the Bolton which he's seen Melisandre's magic work many times before.
I've never understood why in this show about the shades of gray in morality that people get up in arms when characters they get attached to die or have terrible things happen to them. Desperate people do desperate things, especially when they think everything hinges on it. I think the problem is people aren't able to get their head around what Stannis is thinking and what he thinks the consequences of his failure will be, the annihilation of all men.
I don't have a problem with him killing his daughter necessarily. My point from the beginning is that the show has not developed him to this point where that choice was the logical conclusion for him at this point developmentally.
We went from him definetely not killing her to being willing to sacrifice her with basically no in between. Thats not very good storytelling. Because Ramsey burned some supplies?
Again, my opinion on it is biased by the change from the books, I'll admit. In the books his situation is significantly more dire, and if he had elected to sacrifice her under those criteria I wouldn't have blinked an eye. Its just my opinion, I don't mind Shireen being burned alive forits own sake, more so that I would have liked to see some more development there. Because now Stannis character just looks like a complete and utter delusional coward.
I would actually argue that his situation in the books at toward the end of ADWD isn't as bad as it is in S5E9.
Renly may be a criminal for making a claim but in Westeros fratricide is akin to Kingslaying. Serious no no. Yet, he does it and does it with Black Magic. Also serious no no.
The show simply does not have the time, as all shows that are drawn from books have issues with, to show the complete arc of every character. And as GRRM said himself the show and books are essentially two completely different versions of the same story. One person tells it this way, another that way.
I agree that Stannis up to now in the books is seemingly protecting Shireen but as has been his path from the very first Stannis is sliding into more and more desperate times. Everything he does ultimately fails, leading him to make greater sacrifice after greater sacrifice to Rhollar. When I read Stannis in the books, this is what I got. He is not a good guy. He is a self-righteous, illegitimate power hungry ruler that will eventually stop at nothing to get what he wants.
You can say he answered the Black's call. He did. Great. Saved the day. But it was not to help Jon fight the wildlings or the White Walkers. It's to bring the North under his claim. Nothing more.
After the defeat of Blackwater Bay Melisandre is burning everyone that spoke out against her while the "great" Stannis sulks in his chambers. No honorable King does that.
He killed his brother because of Renly made claim to the throne, instead of following Davos advice to join together to crush Joffery first. No honorable King does that either.
And yes, he knows Joffery/Tommen are illegitimate but again he has zero proof. Accordingly he should be honor bound to his King until he gets said proof. I may agree with his actions here, but if you want to take a hard stance as Stannis does with everybody except himself, then he should still be supporting Tommen.
If they stayed at the Wall, or went back to the Wall they'd die. Lack of supplies. Lack of troops to fend off the invading White Walkers. etc.
Not to mention that the prophecy that Stannis believes in requires him to unite Westeros under his banner in order to defeat the White Walkers.
So tonight's episode did a lot to canonize Dany and demonize Stannis. Let me just preface this by saying that he is characterized MUCH differently on page to the extent that he has men gathering an army to fight in Shireen's name should he die. Thus demonstrating that to him it would be preferable for him to die and the claim to fall to her then to sacrifice her for his benefit.
But lets consider our choices.
1. An 18 y/o girl who has flamed out the first time she tries to rule and bails on the back of her feral dragon leaving behind a city descending into civil war. "I WILL BREAK THE WHEEL GUYS!"
2. And this guy: "I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning... burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you? I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty ... If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark ... Sacrifice ... is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."
"I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her? We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must ... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty."
He remains the ONLY leader to see the true enemy "Few of the birds that Maester Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared." "Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters."
All Hail His Grace, Stannis Baratheon, Lord of the Rhoynar, Andals, and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, and King of the Seven Kingdoms.
Stannis does have a lot of pride and honor in how he views responisibility. understanding the need of the Night's Watch a big one, but make no mistake he is there for opportunity. The north as he views it is being held by a traitorous usurper, and if he captures Winterfell and returns it to Stark hands then he can rally the North in his favor to push south to be King.
whether he truly believe in the White Walkers is yet to be seen from what I can remember.
And though, I agree the abrupt leaving was a mistake by the show runners when it should have been Dany hopping on and guiding the dragon to attack from the sky. Her actually getting on the dragon is a big turning point for her ultimate return to Westeros. But damn those dragons are still young.
Dany does not direct Drogon at all to attack. That scene played out more or less exactly how it was written (minus some poisoned locusts)
I have the same criticism for the scene no matter book or show.
slight correction: Stannis doesn't consider himself to be fighting to win the throne. He already considers himself the King of Westeros, but he pragmatically recognizes the need to eliminate the Boltons & Lannisters to actually take control of the 7 kingdoms.
But Stannis is mean and killed his daughter! And if we don't blindly support Dany, it's cause we're clearly sexist! /s
I think a lot of people have forgotten that sacrifice is a revered trait (so much so we have a big ass pylon in the middle of campus dedicated to it), especially when combined with duty and honor (holy shit, more pylons). Stannis is one of the more consistent characters in ASOIF and GOT. His speech to Shirene last night highlighted his ideals and character. He had to make a hard choice. That's what good rulers do. Not hop on your dragon and run to the desert when the going gets tough.
TL;DR: Stannis is now, has always been, and will always be the mannis, whereas Dany is a coward who just happens to have useful pets and a last name that used to mean something.
Stannis just burned his daughter at the stake after going about that whole speech of how he told everyone else to fuck off about wanting to do everything in his powers to keep her alive because she's his daughter, when in reality he was keeping her around, like Dumbledore keeping Harry around just to be killed at the opportune moment. He took the coward's way out, and that was even more evident when he sent Davos off before he killed her.
As for Dany. I'm sorry, the Harpy was trying to butcher her and everyone else, and you call her a coward for mounting a dragon and getting the fuck out of there? No, you mount that dragon, you GTFO, and you prove to everyone in the city "hey, you might not like me, but I'm flying on a dragon, what now, assholes?" That kind of power move is going to intimidate the shit out of everyone there, and it shows she actually has legitimate power, something she hasn't shown before.
Good point on Dany and the power move at the end. Some people may see it as weak of her to just fly off, but I am with you, she didn't really have a lot of great options there the way the scene was constructed. I know she didn't plan it out to show any power, she was just trying to not get herself or Drogon killed.
But until now she was someone with a name and 3 dragons that people viewed her as having zero control over. So while the dragons are threatening, Dany herself commanding them wasn't quite a threat yet.
Now the story will spread "Hey you see this giant black fire breathing murderbeast (that history tells us will just keep growing bigger and bigger and bigger until its killed)...yeah well it lets me ride on its back and fly it now." That gives her a physical power she really didn't have, even with the Unsullied.
Especially given that GRRM has stated this is the size that this particular murderbeast is ultimately going to get to. DAMN
"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
I jest, but I really can't tell if you are serious with your answer or being tongue in cheek. While burning your only child to death because a witch told you to certainly is a sacrifice in terms of the definition of the word, I am not quite sure its the kind of sacrifice you would classify in the category of "Kind good leaders make..."
I will admit that my feeling about the scene is biased somewhat by the fact that this characterization of him is light years from what comes across the page. Stannis has his faults for sure, but it is pretty clear that murdering his daughter would be one of the last, if not last thing he would ever even consider. And thats not my interpretation of him, its what the character literally communicates.
I get what the showrunners were trying to convey here by having that scene earlier in the season with Shireen, and following it up with this. However, just because you can tell what message they were trying to get across does not necessarily mean they did a good job actually delivering it. Even the character knew it was the wrong thing to do. If he was convinced that this was the "necessary" thing to do, he wouldn't have needed to send Davos away. He knew how he would have reacted, and he couldn't face it. That doesn't sound to me like a man that is convinced that he is the promised one, for if he were you would have given his kingly order, Davos' reaction be damned.
They have just destroyed that character. I think it was pretty clear to all that Stannis isn't Azor Ahai returned at this point already. But now they have made him a character that can not be redeemed.
Completely agree and disagree. This is a Stannis different than the books, however I totally see Stannis eventually doing this in the books. He is already on the slippery slope down into madness and the show just expediated it. But again... this is where we disagree with Sansa as well. haha
I REALLY wish they had held off doing this a bit longer.
1. It could have introduced some of the Northern Clans and shown the true anger hiding just below the surface in the North that Stannis rally's against the Boltons.
2. And if we had waited it could have played out like the page with it being Theon who is likely to be burnt. Just think we are spending all this time working on Theon putting his humanity back together, then he RESCUES Sansa and saves her from the Boltons. And then BOOM Stannis has him strung up and ready for the tree.
I'm strictly sharing my thoughts on where the show is at, not necessarily where it might go.
Incidentally, my problems with the scene are the same as Sansa's arc. I don't have a problem with them burning a little girl at the stake persay (yeah its f-ed up, but I am definetely not one of those people that are put off by a scene in a brutal fantasy show, like a lot of people were with Sansa's rape). Its more like the scene last night (and Sansa's arc) seem to be executed by a character that the show hasn't quite given us yet.
"You are Shireen of House Baratheon and my daughter, and I won't let anything happen to you! Until I kill you myself the next time we see you on screen."
He sent Davos away with his back turned to him. He couldn't look the man in the eye when he knew damn well he was about to burn Shireen at the stake the second he left camp. That's pure cowardice in my opinion.
D&D didn't create this scene, Martin did. He told them specifically that this happens in the story and they were just like you - blown away. But then they came to understand why he would do it. Go watch the show notes for Ep9.
p.s. What did Azor Ahai do to defeat the white walkers the last time? Oh that's right, stab his own wife (who he loved very much) through the heart with his sword to turn it into Lightbringer so he could defeat the White Walkers. Sacrifice...
(Not really sure where to put this comment/question, but this seems like as good a place as any...)
Do we know why Stannis and Melisandre were able to do their magic with Gendry's blood just from the leeches, but to get Shireen's king's blood, they had to sacrifice her?
There's two ways of looking at it
1) the blood leeches did nothing since the Boltons were going to betray Robb Stark anyway, Euron was going to murder Balon anyway, and Oleanna was going to murder Joffery anyway.
2) the blood leeches only helped ensure that things went as planned for those 3 assassinations and as such the magic didn't have to be very strong... a gentle helping hand if you will.
Burning someone provides much more powerful magic. In the books Stannis burns a few people to clear the weather for his fleet's journey north, and the trip goes much faster than normal with minimal losses to the typically very stormy weather.
Hmmm...but for all Stannis knows, burning the leeches did it all, right? And given the Stannis we've seen this season, it seems like he'd be looking for any reason to NOT do that to his daughter.
This just seems to me like the same kind of inconsistency as nobody but the giant using fire against the zombie army last week. I mean, they all know that fire kills them (that's why they burn their dead, right?), so shouldn't they have had bonfires ready to go all along the perimeter of their camp (and sentries out there too, by the way)?
Already been addressed above, fire is used to keep people from becoming wights, not the all powerful way to defeat them. That would be obsidian.
Jon did kill the wights in castle black early in the series with fire. Its not the all powerful way but it does kill them. It also seems the wights can be defeated like a mortal with a sword or arrow while the white walkers can't.
Yeah it looks like that while regular arrows/swords/what don't straight up kill the wights, they basically render them useless in terms of combat. I.E. If a wight gets cut in half by a sword, although it doesn't technically "kill it", you are now talking about a torso trying to crawl around which would be considerably less combat effective. The White Walkers can reanimate the dead, but they can't reattach body parts. And fire just makes it so there is nothing left to reanimate, which is why the wildlings made burning their dead a standard practice.
As for the White Walkers themselves, normal weapons obviously shatter on impact with them or their own weapons. It will be interesting to see, considering dragonglass and "dragonsteel" can shatter them instantly, I would imagine that dragon fire right from the source would be devastating to them as well.
that was an interesting episode though seems like some plot holes. a few observations:
1) a brothel with no debaucherous sex scene?! seriously disappointed. What has this show become?
2) Stannis putting his girl to the flame is the mark of his end. As IllinoisHokie said above he was out of options, but even more so he has been on a continuous slide of reliance to the Fire God. In the books he put a lot of people to the flame on Dragonstone and he just continued to spiral downward as he has gotten more and more desparate. As he is neither the rightful King nor the lightbringer, he is simply a doomed man who knows that he is but refuses to admit it.
3) Interesting about Davos being sent away and Melisandre being with Stannis. Am I mistaken that in the books she remained at Castle Black? Davos meanwhile was down in White Harbour I think. So in the tv show, perhaps Davos will return with Jon Snow's body? speculation but serious deviation from the books here.
4) Arya's story basically skipped a 1000 pages. Which isn't a bad thing. I really felt it was dragging on way too long in the books. Interesting sure, but just never seemed to end. So will she have the first kill on her list?
5) Meereen. Time to level that city. Another point that is taking too long in the books. Dany doesn't want to stay there anyway, so why the hell is she trying to liberate it so much. She doesn't have any trustworthy generals or leaders to leave to rule in her stead when she ultimately goes to Westeros, so wtf does it matter? kill the nobles off and be done with it. Anyway, Tyrion... last week he said it wise to open the games, this week he seemed to want Dany to end them. make up your damn mind. Dany's marriage issue is resolved easily enough. And Jorah is back in good graces. Dragons... cool as fuck, but someone needs to teach that thing how to fight. just fly in a fucking circle above arm strength and fry the sonsabitches with fire. I know he's young but he's strong enough to do that. And who decided to have Dany in a stadium full of 100,000 people with only 20 guards? dumb... Tyrion, time to take control of the leadership under Dany, because nobody seems to have damn clue what they are doing.
6) Harpys: I get that they can't do this for the purposes of the story but they have them all surrounded in a circle and then they just attack one by one. lame. then Drogon comes and all the sudden they have a hundred spears/javelins. Where were they before? You had Dany and everyone surrounded with like 200 Harpy's, just have everyone throw a spear into the center and be done with it. so also lame. Just script it differently without those obvious plot holes. Though I wished the Wights were more like an army and less an army of zombies, last week's episode was top notch in terms of production value. Amazing fight sequences and that whole extended scene so well done. Contrasted to this one, the production issues of this scene seemed glaring to me. haha, which means absolute dick from my office on the other side of the world, but you know... everyone knows better. Armchair showrunners the lot of us.
Good Strong post.
1. We only eve see the gratuitous debauchery in Littlefinger's brothel. some of them MUST have class, right?
2. It could be the end for Stannis, or it could be his actually fulfilling his destiny. If he is Azor Ahai the champion of Rhollor the he was required to make great sacrifices in order to forge Lightbringer, his magical sword of cleansing light and flame. Legend says AA plunged the sword into his wife's breast because she was his most loved most. And Shireen is certainly who Stannis loves most, in his own way.
And yea the pit got kind of confusing real fast. On page it is implied that all the fresh blood and noise was what attracted Drogon back, and the gladiators freak out and attack him so Dany rushes in to save him and bails. There is an attack by the Harpies but it is in the form of poison food that one of her guards eats and not an actual confrontation.
1. Fucking Faith Militant
2. I hear what your saying but honestly I see Melisandre just leading Stannis down a rabbit hole to get what she really wants, which is Jon Snow. She needed a "King" with an army to follow her to save Jon and bring forth the Azor Ahai. I don't think Stannis is it. I could be way off but it seems that every time Stannis "proves" his faith it never works out, like Blackwater Bay, and he must prove it again but only more severely. I get that it's what is asked for by Rhollor but again I just think he is a pawn. Now will Shireen bring forth the Stone Dragon? that I could see as Stannis. Not Azor Ahai reborn though.
Yeah, I prefer the pit scene in the books only because this scene was so messy. The whole sequence was just poorly done for me. Even the CGI looked CGI, compared to last episode where it was so damn realistic. Budgets... what a bitch. Anyway, I know why Dany bailed. In the book she is seeking refuge more than anything so I think it's just added punctuation to why I think this whole thing came off so poorly.
The CGI when the camera was looking back on her as they were flying out of the pit was awful. Looked like something out of a late 90s UPN show like Buffy... bad
Except Blackwater was the explicit rejection by Stannis of Mel and the Red God. He leaves her on Dragonstone in book and show at the prodding of Davos. And in book once we get a chapter from Mel's POV we see she does earnestly believe that Stannis is the Mannis. And is incredibly confused when asking for visions from the Red God and all she sees is a snow storm. While she is obviously interested and feels Jon's "Touch of Destiny" all evidence points to her remaining loyal to Stannis and attempting to use Jon as a resource until proven blatantly otherwise.
And some good arguments I have seen on Reddit point to AA and Lightbringer, and The Last Hero being just archetypes. Why should Lightbringer be just a sword? Perhaps it is an armed force of cleansing fire that has been forged at great sacrifice? All of a sudden that sounds very much like Stannis. Bran seems to start fitting the Archetype of The Last Hero as the lone soul who has lost all his friends and finally found the Children to help fight the Others, and Jon of course is the leading candidate for some sort of AA like messiah if he is resurrected.
what I meant about Blackwater is that Stannis was already putting people to the flame and then failed at blackwater bay. testing his faith to make him believe he must serve more severely. I know that he left Melisandre there but he was all in prior to that, especially with what he was willing to do to kill Renly. these things all leading him to go further and further into his madness.
I think the Melisandre really believed Stannis at one point. But ultimately she believes Rhollar, not Stannis. And if Rhollar tells her that he just needed her to use Stannis then she flips that switch without a second thought.
I've seen those comments too. All good speculation.
I hadn't thought of the AA Nissa Nissa narrative in this but it makes sense now that I read it. The point of Nissa Nissa is to show how devoted AA is to his Lord and his cause. It reminds me of/I think GRRM took it from the biblical story (someone help me out here I think it's Old Testament, but I don't really know the Bible at all) where I think Abraham is told by God to kill his son (Isaac?) and he is about to do it when God stops him and says that it was a test of faith and he passed. This is a step farther but same idea.
It wasn't a bad episode but it wasn't as good as the other episode 9s of the previous seasons. I believe we are in store for a big cliff hanger next week though.
Not as good as previous episode 9's... Tell me, did any of them have a gigantic flying flamethrower?
No but other regular episodes did. Season 3 episode 4 I believe Dany uses her dragon to melt the slave driver when she buys the unsullied. It was a good episode but as far as previous major events in the other episode 9s (Ned's beheading, the battle of the blackwater, the red wedding) it just didn't have the big wow factor. It was no huge surprise that Dany was going to ride a dragon...
I really am sad they streamlined the march to Winterfell for the show. I really do wish we would have gotten Stannis rallying the Montain Clans of the North at Jon Snow's recommendation, and his liberation of Deepwoode Motte from the Ironborn. It would have given us the comedy styling of Ser Justin Massey, Asha Greyjoy, Alysane Mormont, and Stanny B!
Plus the seething and grim visage anger of the Northerners that is held against the Bolton's. One of them drops one of the top monologues in the series: "Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. "Do you want to die, Wull?"
That seemed to amuse the northman. "I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."
Plus two fantastic one liners from Stannis highlighting how he knows people don't like him as much as Robert, but he will still get the job done in his own way, and inspires in many ways an even deeper loyalty. Consider that his hard core of maybe 1500 Southern Knights and Men-At-Arms (1/4 to 1/3 of his host) have been with him from Dragonstone to Storm's End, to the Blackwater, to the North and have not abandoned him and show no signs of doing so, Red God believers or no.
"We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell ... or die in the attempt."
"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
Anyone else think that at the end, Rickon Stark is going to wander into the picture again and claim the throne because he is the only one left alive with a name to him?
This is based on nothing, just a goofy hunch.
This season going by fast for anyone else?
Now it is, the first half kind of drug on with it setting everything up. The past few episodes have flown by though.
As a general note, I'm rolling my eyes at all this new and sudden "moral outrage" that's come with this new season by people on the interwebs.
If incest, beheadings, rape, sex, and other indecencies didn't stop you from watching ~40-50 episodes previously, why should you suddenly feel like "taking a stand" and saying the show's gone "too far" now after more rape, child sacrifices, and other "shocking" incidents? It may not be real history, but i'm sure it's not too far off of what happened during medival times (of course, Dragons notwithstanding....OR ARE THEY!? #aliensdudesayingaliens.gif).
Not to mention a lot of this stuff is still happening today all over the world
It's the cool thing to do now and because the characters having bad things done to them people actually like and have started to identify with. Throw that in there with how rape and sexual violence has been put under a microscope over the past year you get this. This gets exacerbated now that the produces are changing the story since the series will be over before the final books are out. Even though the ending is the same, they have to change the path to it since not even Martin knows exactly how he'll get there.
Shireen didn't have that happen to her in the book but it's been speculated and Martin practically confirmed Stannis will sacrifice her. Sansa didn't get married to and raped by Ramsey, but she didn't have a pleasant time in the Veil either. They don't have time to go through all the different arcs to the numerous characters so they're consolidating the stories to save on time, actors, shooting, and money.
Plus in this day and age you can just go to a subreddit and get outraged and have everyone reaffirm what you think to get satisfaction.
I think part of the outrage is that the bad things that recently happened to Shireen and Sansa are some of the first horrific tragedies that those who read the books did not already know about. There has been pretty terrible stuff happening to characters the whole time, but up to this point most people have known it was coming and have already seen how it ties into the larger story.
The "WHAT?! That's HORRIBLE!! Why would you write that? What's the point of putting that in your story?!" reaction that most people have now is pretty much the exact same reaction that anyone would have to their first time experiencing the death of Ned, the Red Wedding, etc.
In other words: See, book readers, what it's like when you don't know what's going on? Pretty much a constant stream of bad things happening to good people. Sucks, doesn't it.
Well I've read all the books, and it certainly diverges, but hey! I'm not up in arms about it! I'd rather he didn't diverge from the books, but I understand why he did it, and frankly, keeps the show exciting for those of us who thought we knew what was going to happen.
Particularly though, I was referring to folks who seem to cry outrage not because it diverged from the book, but because of the horrendous scenes. They ask "why was it neccessary to do that?". My point is "who cares? It's fiction!". If you don't like it then don't watch it, a la a horror or porn movie.
I think I'm agreeing with you. My point was that "Why was it necessary to do that?" could be asked about EVERY horrific thing that has happened thus far. What is new is that people can no longer rely on what they read in the books to answer that question, so the horrendous scenes seem more pointless, which causes more outrage.
Up to this point those who had read ahead were able to view it in the larger context of the overarching story so there was some sort of answer to the "why" and the terrible acts didn't seem quite so...senseless. You could say "Oh, the Red Wedding had to happen because it causes blah blah blah and if you just keep watching it'll make more sense." Now that the show has diverged from the book, there is less "insider information" so people are finally having to face "Why was it necessary to do that?" without much of an answer. The terrible scenes feel more senseless, which causes the outrage.
This is a pull from the Ask the Maester column that Grantland proffers each week (http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-dragons-human-...). Pretty good read each week if you don't already check it out.
It sums up my feelings towards the Shireen burning scene better than I could. Again, my issue is not that a kid was burned to death. I can accept that in a brutal fantasy show. Emphasis is my own:
"That's how I explain Benioff and Weiss dropping a "When George told us about this ..."1 as a way to explain how they arrived at the scene from "The Dance of Dragons" in which Stannis Baratheon has his daughter Shireen burned at the stake to gain the favor of the Lord of Light. Because, OK, apparently that will happen in the books. But it doesn't happen on the march to Winterfell in the books, and the timing matters because context matters.
What bothers me about the scene is that it's based on a character acting in a way that's counter to how he's been depicted all series. Stannis has been depicted as one of the greatest generals in the realm. He held the Storm's End against a one-year siege by eating rats. So if the device that gets Stannis to the place where he's desperate enough to burn his only daughter and heir alive2 is (1) some snow and (2) a sudden and convenient ineptitude at doing war stuff, that feels off to me. Stannis, "the greatest military commander in Westeros" per Davos, is in enemy territory, on the march toward a belligerent castle, and for some reason (i.e., to make this scene happen) he doesn't have scouts out or watchmen guarding the camp or have his army — made up largely of professional mercenaries who themselves should know better — in the state of alertness necessary in a war. Also: Ramsay is now a ninja. I don't buy it.
Of course bad things happen on Game of Thrones. But when you arrive at those things through contrivances, it cheapens the shock. It's about consistent storytelling."
I don't think people realize how bad the situation was. Davos and Stannis had a few exchanges about staying at Castle Black until the weather cleared up. Stannis and Mel didn't' think the weather was going to clear up in time to take Winterfell before winter comes. This whole thing is so he can unite the realm before winter falls and the White Walkers kill everything. He has no choice but to march before the weather gets impossible for him to head south and take the throne.
Castle Black also doesn't have the supplies to keep his army and the watch alive, Stannis and Jon talk about this too. He has no siege weapons, no food, and can't turn back. There is a sense of great urgency in how quickly he has to head south. Throw in how he's believes in Mel's power due to how everything she predicts comes true and you get this. He also said he would do this seasons ago.
I think it still reinforces the idea that the setup of the scene was poorly done IMO. In the book, Stannis and his men have already gone through 1 battle (liberating Deepwood Motte), have gained support of various Northern clans (so now they have even more mouths they are responsible for), and find themselves camped for a significant amount of time with snowdrifts over their heads, basically reduced to just sitting and waiting to have to fight the Boltons in open battle.
And not only does he not kill his daughter then, he was so against the idea he specifically left her at the Wall to avoid that eventuality. As I keep saying, yes maybe he kills her "eventually". That still doesn't mean the way they handled it on the show was any good. Its about good storytelling. I really have no other comment on the issue, but clearly I'm not just pulling this view on it out of thin air.
I think the main issue is time. How much time is the show going to be able to invest in Stannis from this point on? Things MUST be expedited. There is no other way. Does that suck, sure. Is it going to be executed well universally, no way. Hell, look at my post about last episode. I picked apart the Dany in the Pit scene. It was a mess. And Tyrion hasn't even met Dany yet in the books for crying out loud. Time.
last episode they had scenes with Arya, Stannis, John, Tyrion/Dany, Cersei, Dorne ... it's too many moving parts for an hour long show with 10 episodes a season. Yes, Stannis in the show was not portrayed well enough to seem as if he was in such dire straits as to truly believe burning his daughter is the only solution. But really, does that impact the story that much? no. just like Tyrion hyperjumping past the Jon Connington/Grif and Jorah storylines did not matter. He's there with Dany now. Stannis is there in the snow and he just burned Shireen. So be it. Time.
They don't have enough of it to tell eveyone's story completely. Stannis may not be at this point in the books, but again the show cannot be compared to the books. they are different mediums and different retellings. Stannis may still be somewhat honorable to many people's eyes, but in the end, just as Tyrion wille eventually meet and advise Dany (and Sansa will rebuild Winterfell, haha) Stannis will burn Shireen and continue to slip into his madness of self-righteousness.
"Yes, Stannis in the show was not portrayed well enough to seem as if he was in such dire straits as to truly believe burning his daughter is the only solution. But really, does that impact the story that much?"
If the result is to cause some inconsistencies with the character as we have been introduced to him so far, then yes it does impact the story. I understand that they are different retellings. Thats my whole point, that their retelling of this particular story (Stannis') has some problems. I have never claimed that something is not any good if its not done exactly as the book did it. Judging the show on its own merits, it still has some issues even though overall its a fantastic show. I think having Tyrion meet Dany is something the books should have done LONG ago, for example.
You bring up an interesting question, the question of how much time does the show have?
The plan is for there to be 7 books in ASOIF, per GRRM. But there isn't anything that says GoT the show can only be 7 seasons. I would think at this point the producers have as much time as they would like to flesh out there story.
They could go 10 seasons long and still probably finish the story before the last book is out at this point.
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a34408/game-of-thrones-endi...
No the are running out of time already. And we all know the ending is going to be monumental. I have no idea how they are going to get it done.
There are inconsistencies in so many characters though. Jaime, Brienne, Sansa, Petyr, Dany, Jorah, and on and on... Again, it is impossible to make a show about books with so much depth and not have inconsistencies. At best you can only manage the inconsistencies to make sure the story at it's core is maintained. And again, I see no possible way that this impacts Stannis' story so irrevocably that it changes a) Stannis or b) the greater story. It does neither because a) Stannis in both the show and books has always been on the path to burn her and b) Shireen in the greater story is largely unimportant.
The gripe you have is with the show's ability to portray Stannis' story arc to believe he would do this now, at this point in the show. That's debatable, I can see your point, but again... time. However, it does nothing to affect Stannis' ultimate path or the larger story.
I think earlier it seemed as if you were saying you didn't like it happening at all. I agree that more set up, which would probably push her death back to this episode 10, would have made it better: more a show of the army's struggle and more Stannis debating Melisandre about it in which she explains the Nissa Nissa/Lightbringer story. The whole Azor Ahai thing hasn't really been told, it's mentioned in passing but if you haven't read the books or researched it you don't get it.
Yes. I don't have a problem with them killing for its own sake. It just seemed rushed, is all. I get they don't have time for everything in a TV show like a book that you can make as long as you like and fill with any and all detail.
It just seemed to cheapen the character a bit by going this route. It seemed like one setback and Stannis was ready to kill his daughter over it.
The whole season was rushed for book readers. I thought they should have split it into two seasons, elongated the Stannis, Tyrion, Dorne, Kings Landing storylines that they condensed. I've really liked this season, but they gave time to set up Stannis-Shireen father-daughter situation but not why it would be broken which would have only taken one or two scenes (read Arya scenes)
Well anything is going to be better if they take more time. The series is going to be 7 or 8 seasons. They also don't have complete cannon for the last two books, so they are really going to diverge. They literally don't have enough time to portray everything as it should be. Characters are chopped out and stories are merged, but they'll end up in the same place in the end. Sansa, Ramsey, and Theon are one example. I think they are tossing those together to save time not setting up Sansa separately.
Stannis's motivation for burning her seems rushed because it had to be. They couldn't devote 1/3rd an episode to his army starving in the snow for an extended period of time. I think time to set up the wildlings and Jon as Lord Commander was better spent than it would have been to have Stannis starving on screen more when you already know he's starting to believe he's the realm's last chance and in Mel's magic and the simple setup sufficed to bring that point in.
And additionally, WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE IRONBORN!?
what do you mean!? We have the Prince of Winterfell almost every episode and his "nuncle" got a cool fight scene and saved his main squeeze Dany in the arena.
No.
HEY have you seen Daario and Euron int he same place at the same time? Or Benjen?
I haven't seen Benjen, but there's a wildling outside who says he saw him
I will preface this by saying I have never read the books nor do I ever intend to.
Essentially people seem to have one or many of the following reasons for being unhappy with this whole burning of the daughter thing:
1) In the books his daughter wasn't burned alive, and thus people who have read this particular book are unhappy with how it deviated.
2) They didn't build up his plight on screen quite enough to show why he believes he had no other choice.
3) Burning one's child at the stake just isn't cool.
Or you fall into the category of just not caring at all and can't wait to see them fight it out next week at Winterfell or whatever else happens next. I for one find these kinds of discussions very interesting now that the show is getting into uncharted territory. The book readers are mad at the show producers, the non-book readers don't quite get why the book readers are mad, the book readers are mad at the non-book readers not getting why they are mad, and I'm just over here reading every single comment getting more and more confused by the second, I love this.
I'm a non book reader and I'm very disappointed in the character development this year. And this has been a great discussion about that subject. With Stannis, he hung around on Dragonstone for seemingly forever, inexplicably turns up to save Jon north of the wall and apparently had no plan after that. He then turns around and hangs out on the Wall for what seems to be way more time than he should have (Jon had to ask him when he was leaving) then he marches in the snow with shit for supplies.
If he's the greatest general in Westeros, then his character should have been developed more to demonstrate those skills. From what we can see, besides showing up in the nick of time for Jon Snow, Stannis has bumbled all over himself for a long time.
I haven't liked the pace of the show this year. We took three episodes to get to Dorne, then they immediately jump into the fight then they have wine and pie and its over. W. T. F. Arya spends half the season sweeping, now she's an assassin. It takes 6 episodes to get Tyrion to Dany, now they are BFF's. Hey, let's find a High Priest for Kings Landing! Oh shit, he's taken over the joint.
I just want to go back to Season 3 when this show had me. It can be so much better than it has been this year.
This is AZHokie22's point, which I agree with. They had room for more character development which strengthens their story. Past seasons had more development but the last few episodes have diverged.
People, including Grantland need to pay attention more closely when watching. The bits and pieces of what led Stannis to do that were provided throughout the series. The show has to accellerate the character arcs and leave stuff to interpolation, there's simply not the time or money to walk the story through every little detail.
Bottom line is that it's completely plausible based on how Stannis's character has progressed throughout the series.
Welp... That ought to end all Jon Snow speculation...
Those fan theories were fun while they lasted
Just the opposite.
SPOILER ALERT FOR NON-BOOK PEOPLE but I have to get this idea out.
In the books, Melisandre stays at Castle Black, and the book ends on the cliffhanger with Selyse, Shireen, and Melisandre doing...well, who knows what. In the show, she specifically comes back to Castle Black. Why? What reason would she have to return? The only reason that I can think of is that she is there to save Jon. She'll do it in the books, too. She's almost certainly realized that Jon was the savior all along and likely needed to get Stannis out of the way. Red priests like Thoros can resurrect the dead (see: Dondarrion, Beric) and likely Melisandre can do the same.
Yeah, the books have laid down a lot of precedent for fire bringing people back. Also, for the kept thinking he is Azor Ahai Reborn, it would fit right in.
I'm curious about what happened to Brienne, which is probably the first time I said that since she met lady stoneheart
Its possible... Yeah, definitely seems like Melisandre showing up right before then is a little too much to overlook. Much like Davos showing up right after Sam leaves. Setting up too many new people in Castle Black who believe in Jon for him to die now.
I'm also curious about a couple other aspects of the episode. Lots of cliffhangers. Arya is now blind? Theon and Sansa are on the run together. Dorne basically just declared war on Kings Landing. Dani is now back with... was that the Dothraki? At least we saw one storyline come to a final conclusion with the end of the Baratheons. I do have to say, though... I'm a little surprised we still haven't seen Lady Stoneheart. Starting to wonder if she'll ever show up in the show.
Martin listed her as a character he was disappointed was cut from the show. We will not be getting Lady Stoneheart. Ever.
well not with that attitude we wont
Davos may be the only way Snow's body doesn't get burned or ever leaves castle black to be reincarnated. Not sure how much weight Melisandre would carry with the brothers.
Arya going blind is straight from the novels. It's more or less a test, won't spoil any more beyond that. Ends up confirming a something the books have hinted at since she got Nymeria.
Okay, this is something I haven't heard about yet. Can you give a hint that I can search on?
Warg abilities and if all the Stark children have it.
Jon and Bran are the only 2 we know for sure.
Yes research Warg abilities. Throughout the books Bran is not the only Stark that has dreams about running around as a wolf.
Oh, duh, I knew this. Totally forgot about the reference to that after she was blinded. =^/
I'm surprised they didn't go with the warg stuff from the books in terms of dead warg's spirits go into their animals bodies. I think they mention it with the dude Jon kills and his eagle. That end scene should've included Ghost in some way, I'm thinking a mournful howl way in the distance as the screen goes black.
Re: Lady Stoneheart, the showrunners, Dan and Dave, have commented that you don't bring back an actress of her caliber for a short scene with no speaking role. They've pretty much said straight out that Lady Stoneheart will not be making an appearance. Too lazy to google for a link, though.
And remember the show added the scene of Thoros and Mel meeting when she picks up Gendry from the Brotherhood. She sees Bereic's resurrection for herself and knows it can be done.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! Given I have a 2 week old son now, watching the episode live just wasn't happening. So we watched it yesterday. I threw the remote and cursed as Jon was stabbed, but then I gained hope as I explained that Melisandre will save Jon in my opinion. She sees fire within him and that is the reason she came back to Castle Black. Why else would she leave Stannis and return there? Why not just disappear or go somewhere else? It is no coincidence that she returned.
Why can't you watch it live? It's not like he's going to see something and be traumatized by it.
Late-night feedings for my second daughter were when I got to watch all the stuff I couldn't watch while my first daughter was around. =^)
Yep, 2 week old son? Doesn't get better than that. Watch all the TV you can now.
Oh man. You clearly had a different experience than I did, which was all of 5 months ago now. Luckily basketball season was in full swing and I didn't need the sound while using every conceivable method to calm him and get him to sleep. We were luckily if he ever slept 2 hours at a time as well. I even loaded up the DVR leading up to his birth thinking I'd have stuff to watch but that was so far from reality that it's almost comical.
Couldn't watch it live because that's right around his worst hour of the day and that makes it less difficult to pay attention to him and the show. Got to catch up on several shows over the last 2 weeks, but once we got to that time of the evening and finally got him down, we were down for the count ourselves.
Except that people have known for literally years what happens to Jon Snow and the theories keep gaining momentum.
Melisandre is at the Wall in the books and has visions of Jon Snow. Hmmmm....
But I bet she can't bring people back to life like the other Red priest the story has introduced us to...
This. If Jon's function is just to die at the Wall, why was it important to George Martin that the producers correctly identify his parents before signing onto the show? There is absolutely something bigger in store for Jon. We also don't know that he's dead. Certainly left to die, but his fate is still unknown.
Given the sheer amount of blood shown, and the fact that Castle Black has lost its Maester, it seems rather clear that the show version of Jon Snow is in fact dead. But the rest of what you've said tonight is spot on.
Agree, he's almost certainly dead, just throwing it out there. The real question is if he STAYS dead :)
Spoilers: not a fucking chance he stays dead.
One would think, at the very least, it releases him from his oath to the night's watch.
You, sir, are brilliant. I have never come across this insight, and yet it's key.
yes great point. very interesting
Plus the fact that Jon was the 998th Lord Commander. Seems significant.
THEN WHY DID THE SHOW INTRODUCE A SCENE OF THEM MEETING AND HER SEEING IT FOR HERSELF?
That literally is the only possible reason she goes and talks to Thoros and sees Beric for herself to know it can be done and how to do it (pray over the body with funeral rights).
Wouldn't it be something if when he's brought back he fed his attackers to his remaining Thenns? Ollie is a punk.
that kid is hardcore man
The inclusion of that character in the show was a real Oliver Twist.
I hated two things about tonight:
1: That Benjen tease in the "previously on" part was fucking cruel.
2: Aliser Thorne's involvement in the Ides of Marsh. Though he's constantly shown to be a huge asshole, he's always an HONORABLE asshole. For example, the scene with Jon executing Slynt. Thorne stabbing the Lord Commander simply doesn't fit with his character.
Havnt watched it yet, but if Thorne was part of it just a needless use of that character. He hated Snow personally, but would have followed his every order. The show itself establishes this.
Agree but disagree. Thorne's not loyal to a commander so much as he is to the watch and what he perceives as his duty, probably why he says 'for the watch' as he stabs snow. And he definitely thought Jon was a traitor to the watch.
100% agree on 1. I was so pumped to see what that was about and it was all just a long tease
Thats not fair! Maybe the named the plank they wrote on "Benjen"
Troll level: D&D
Some thoughts on what we just went through:
1. Jamie's scene with Myrcella and actually getting to admit to himself that he is a father was wonderful, and much better then the mop up duty he spends the books doing in the Riverlands though I hope we get that too. Myrcella dying is tough and might be what permanently estranges Jamie and Cersei, along with force Doran's hand to put the hammer down on his brother's family.
2. Im holding out for a Stannis. Seriously if they were ok with showing Ned Stark's rotting head why no shot of Stannis even in profile? In the books he has of course not burned his daughter, as she his wife and Melissandre remain at Castle Black while he begins marching south and we do not yet have a definitive answer to who wins the battle as it has not yet occured but consider that his enemies are fools and hot heads and he says this to an escaped Theon:
"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
Because that doesnt sound like a guy who gets punk'd by some cavalry and not being aware that there are enemies about while on the march, he had that happen at King's Landing, and he doesnt make the same mistake twice.
3. Tyrion, Jorah, and Dario looked like a bad album cover chilling together. And im SO GLAD a cheesy Grey Worm romance was more important then keeping Barristan Selmy alive.
4. ROBERT STRONG!!! CLEGANE BOWL!!!!! GET HYPE!!!!!!!
5. The Ides of Marsh was well done. Though I appreciate the nod to Benjen I wish it would have been motivated by his hearing of Ramsay saying he wanted his "bride" back and how he was coming for the Watch after beating Stannis. Even more then the Wildlings, not getting involved in internal wars is a NO for the Night's Watch and Jon saying he willt ake volunteers and Wildlings south against the Boltons is the final denial of his vows and what immediately sets off his attack.
And yea remember back in season 2 how that other Red Priest Thoros kept bringing Beric Donadarion back to life like after he fought The Hound?
Well remember who got back to Castle Black just before Jon got stabbed.
Why is it called the Ides of Marsh?
It's actually how Lou Holtz pronounces March
No, that would be Idesh of Marshth
In the book, Jon is stabbed repeatedly by Bowen Marsh (or he is the ringleader, I forget the details). But since Bowen isn't really a known character in the show, they changed it up.
Was Oliver a character in the books? I thought they just wrote him into the Marsh role.
There is a kid with a similar backstory in the novel from what I remember (family killed by Wildlings, etc), but he was not involved in the stabbing.
I was a little peeved they had Thorne stab him as well, but it makes sense rather than introducing all new characters just for that.
If you are thinking about Satin I dont think he had any personal animosity towards them. IIRC he was a bastard from Oldtown who had grown up in a brothel.
Bowen Marsh was the First Seward in the books and essentially served as the Chief of Staff and Jon's main subordinate during his tenure after he sends Ser Allister Thorne away on an independent command.
He is generally against Jon's missions like sending Cotter Pyke on the mission to Hardhome with the Watch's few ships, letting Tormund's band through the Wall. And ten recruiting and manning he abandoned castles with mixed garrisons. Including Jon does Dolorous Edd a big old favor by sending him to a castle with a handful of brothers and about twice their number Spear Wives. So he either loves it or dies horribly.
But when Jon receives the mysterious Pink Letter supposedly from Ramsay Snow after defeating Stannis an demanding the return of Reek and his bride Jon decides to recruit an army of loyal brothers and free folk and march against the Boltons.
This is what prompts the stabbing and Marsh is the first to strike him. And of course Caesar was killed on the Ides of March.
Gah it's been so long that I've read the books, and now my mind is mixing up what happens in the show with what happens in the books that it's all one big jumble.
Is that what happened? I don't remember Reek and Sansa leaving together in the books, nor do I remember Jon raising an army to go defeat the Boltons
All these events happen quickly toward the end of A Dance With Dragons.
So in Theon's last chapter we have Mance's prison break scheme go to hell and Theon and Jenye Poole jump the wall into the snow. Where they are picked up by Morse Umber and brought to Satnnis's camp, whee we see their arrival along with the Iron Bank guy in the next Asha chapter (where we pick up with Theon chained up with Stannis in a preview from TWOW, BEFORE the battle occurs).
Jon at the time was still planning on leading a relief expedition to Hardhome, he had received progressively worse reports from Cotter Pyke about the situation there ("dead things in the water"), and wanted Tormund to help and bring men on dog sleds.
Then when he receives the Pink Letter everything changes. He announces at a meal and reads the contents. He says Tormund will go instead to Hardhome, while he will march South with those who wish to fight the Boltons. Because he claims to have captured the secretly alive Mance he will call on the Wildlings to join him. Then going outside to a commotion he finds the Giant WunWun having killed one of the Queen's Men of religious fanatics (potentially trying to break into Val's chambers) and men beginning to argue.
Jon draws Longclaw to try to break it up, but then the first brother comes at him and he shoves him away but the next one gets him.
I seems much more spontaneous in the books. In the show it was more of a planned conspiracy. Plus in the books it didn't seem so certain the Jon was dead.
Yea, IIRC it ends with something like "He only felt the cold and didnt feel the 3rd knife"
ANd yea reading it in normal time in the books it seems like yea the brothers werent crazy about the Wildlings but were willing to try to save their brothers stuck at Hardhome.
But Jon saying he was going to take a horde south to Winterfell was a holy shit moment to them and they HAD to stop that before people outside Castle Black heard of it or the Bolton's decided to come North themselves. And they reacted in a half panicked response to save the Watch from being destroyed either way.
Haha, when my wife and I were reading ADWD I had gotten to that part before her. I will never forget her face when she finally did read it. It was like a family member had died. Valar Morghulis.
I cant even be that mad about it. Everyone forgets the other half of the saying Valar Doheoris All Men Must Serve.
Jon was prepared to abandon everything and for all intents either become the next Night's King or a King Beyond the Wall on about 30 minutes of thinking about it. He doesnt get outside confirmation on Stannis he doesnt wait until "Arya" is safe in his hands or send her somewhere safe like Bear Isle. He tells Tormund to take his place and makes his decision.
Almost exactly like you might expect an 18 year old kid to do.
Also as an aside. If you havent read the preview Theon chapter from TWOW yet, DO IT.
Some of the best Stannis lines in the entire series.
Topped off by: "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
Thats the kind of shit that gets men motivated, and it is easy to understand why he still has a hard core group that stuck with him from the start despite not all being religious fanatics.
where are these chapters? my google fu is weak tonight
We actually have a total of 10 preview chapters, 6 of which are out in some print version and 4 of which he has read at conventions and such.
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/wiki/twow includes all the links you need.
We have Theon I which I mentioned and features Stannis preparing for the battle, Arianne I and II as she journeys to met Aegon VI after he takes Storm's End, Barristan I and II as he deploys forces to defend Mereen, Tyrion I and II as he negotiates with Brown Ben to defect back to Dany's side, Victarion I as the Iron Fleet approaches Slaver's Bay, Mercy where Arya kills Raff the Sweetling while in a acting house, and a Sansa chapter where Petyr prepares for a ball and tourney and Sansa meets Harry the Heir.
All I've read is Arya and Sansa. Thanks for the links!
No worries!
Theon is my fav just because it almost feels like a stage play. Theon chained up and Stannis are the only 2 characters who are there the whole time while others come and go as Stannis deals with treason and prepares for the battle. Feels claustrophobic and we get closer then any Davos chapter to seeing the real pragmatist and smooth operator that Stannis is, and how far shattered Theon really is.
The Barristan ones are neat just because there can NEVER be enough Barry the Bold.
Wick Wittlestick! Wick was the first one to take a swing at Jon but misses. While Jon confronts Wick and tries to figure out what's going on Bowen gives him a knife in the belly. There were several others who participated but they weren't really named in the book.
Down goes Stannis! Down... Goes... Stannis!
The books and show are somewhat caught up with each other. though the show has expedited many storylines. Some thoughts:
1. Melisandre in the books is at Castle Black with Shireen and Stannis wife. In the show we see Mel come back to castle black. As others noted, this seems to confirm the resurrection of Jon and/or AA. there is still the concept of Jon warging out to Ghost as well to escape death as well. My speculation for the books: given that we know Shireen is going to burn is that I think Melissandre burns her to resurrect Jon. She convince's Stannis' wife that it's to help Stannis and she agrees, later taking her own life.
2. Stannis fails again. Stannis ultimately failiing is pretty much how I've seen this playing out in both show and book. I just never bought into the Stannis the Mannis stuff. Anyway, is this how it will happen in the books. Not sure. If Shireen is not there for everyone to see burn then why are the deserting. Unless its because of the winter and no food. I do think the whole great military mind thing was a setup. He got beat by a non-military mind in Blackwater Bay by Tyrion, and he gets beat by the bastard son of Bolton.
3. Myrcella. Interesting take. In the books she is on the run and has her ear cut off I believe. Jamie no where close to it at all. So i guess the end result is that the son of Dorne is now a prisoner in King's Landing. Dorne will now raise arms and be poised to join with a certain returning Queen and her dragons.
4. Arya's story is both ahead and behind the books. didn't she go blind first? I really need to reread the last book, but I thought this was the first test she had to do.
5. Tyrion. Dude is not even in the city yet. really looking forward to how Martin finally connects them together. But that whole Meereen battle to come is going to be something big. Especially with Victarion on his way with the Horn.
6. Sam leaves. Will he make a stop in Bravos or just continue on? probably just continue on, and where is the Horn of Winter in the show?
7. Theon and Sansa. This is so far afield from the books now it is really hard to know what's going on. Interesting.
8. The scene with Cersei was powerful. Lena Headley deserves some serious props for that. Really brave. Though the blood on her seemed to just appear out of no where from scene to scene. Her feet I understand, but why and where is the blood on here neck and shoulders come from? anyway, nitpicking a great scene. And then she is recued by the remade mountain. Dude looks bigger than ever. Wonder if the Grand Septa gets killed first.
My $0.02:
1. I could not possible agree more, Jon "dying" only removes his duty to the watch. Once he wins back Winterfell, Jon/AA will come back to fight the Others.
2. Yeah, Stannis, thanks for the help at the Wall but I'm happy to see that his time is soon at an end.
3. I'm not sure I like this show arc, but in the grand scheme of things, whatever.
4. She goes blind before I think, too. Oh well, different order, seemingly same results.
5. Looks like the show runners are just having him be Selmy in the books for now and lead the city in the battle until Dany returns. I like that.
6. Oldtown is one of my favorite "what may happen" in the books, excited to see it get some screen time.
7. Don't know, and most definitely don't care. If Sansa is ever a major player in the Game, I'll hate it.
8. Loved it, well done, bravo, other relevant congratulations.
Yes Arya goes blind before this point bookwise. Its when she discovers she can see through the eyes of cats, and ties it in to the wolf dreams she has a little bit.
It was a test then, which I assume it is in this case as well and her sight will return at some point.
The Myrcella bit is interesting. That plotline was getting interesting in the book with the Hotah character (who was basically a complete nonfactor show wise), Darkstar, Arianne, etc. I think this was an obvious show decision from a timing standpoint, as you said the end result is to get Dorne on the opposite side of King's Landing permanently. Will be interested to see it clarified if Martell had part of the scheme to poison her or if it was all Ellaria, as his son will now be in danger.
Come to think of it.... we didn't actually see Stannis die. Maybe Brienne spared him and he is still up and about. Hmmm.... intrigue
Extremely doubtful.
However, the swing of her sword was a bit...off. If you look at the positioning of Stannis and Brienne, with Stannis seated against the tree, and Brienne standing off his lower left leg (from where he's looking), the downward right-to-left cut she makes doesn't make sense. Too difficult a slice given the position of the tree and the angle of the cut. A killing blow would probably be either a direct stab to the chest at an angle off the horizontal, or a sidelong blow left-to-right to cut off his head.
I'm not saying there's a conspiracy here, just poor storyboarding.
Edit: Found a youtube clip...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXJcu8JbmEo
Agreed she swung like she was putting and axe in the top of his skull. I thought it was strange at the time as well.
When they cut from that scene, I turned to my friend and said "he's not dead." They show when people die on this show. I can't remember one other major character who died, but they cut away like that. Shireen screamed and then stopped and you could see Selyse's reaction. You saw the sword go through Ned's neck.
So the new book "Winds of Winter" by GRM, is getting fast tracked. Martin gave an interview where he has said he is canceling appearances and has asked fans to stop emailing him questions so he can finish the book before next seasons HBO show starts. This is good news in my eyes.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/29/george-rr-martin-game-thrones-season-6
So he lacks the self control to NOT REPLY TO EMAILS.
It's not that hard, GRRRRRRM.
(I thought he said the same thing about this book after last seasons HBO finish?)
Source?
The cancellation of appearances has been status quo for him for months. He's also said the email thing before, but that's not so much "you're wasting my time with email" as it is "it'll be done when it's done" (which he says constantly). The proposed deadline of the next season would be interesting; is that something that has now been actually reported somewhere?
At this point, he HAS to... If he delays any further, the show starts to reveal too much of the storyline he has going in the books, and his book sales will plummet. If he releases now, where the show has essentially caught up, it'll be perfect timing, and he'll sell billions of copies before next season starts.
If he had Winds ready to go on bookshelves next week, you are right it would probably be the fastest selling book of all time right now.
I will probably read the books even as the series really overtakes it just because there are a lot of characters and plotlines in there that didn't make the show that I would be interested to see wrapped up hopefully.
I think that there is one very clear indication that Jon Snow is either not dead or will not be staying dead. And that reason is the entire "R+L=J" theory.
If you arn't familiar with it, then I guess this is slightly spoilerish? But not really as the hints have been provided on screen just as they have in the book, and clearly we are all caught up so this is more speculation of things to come than spoiler. This season's scene with Sansa and Littlefinger int he crypts below Winterfell was probably the most outright hint/foreshadow of it, but there have been others (a vision Dany has in the House of the Undying, etc).
As the theory goes, Jon's parentage is not Ned Stark and an unknown woman, rather Jon's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark. The biggest hints that this theory is based on are the following:
1) Very early on its mentioned that Jon Snow has more of the Stark "look" than any of Ned's other children, who look more like their mother's side of the family (The Tully's). This would be consistent with him being born of a Stark, just not Ned necessarily.
2) It is strongly hinted at that Rhaeger did not in fact kidnap Lyanna Stark (who was supposed to marry Robert Baratheon) but that the two were in fact in love and fled together. Littlefinger more or less confirms this outright in his conversation with Sansa at Winterfell.
3) Dany's visions - While in the House of the Undying several seasons ago, one of the visions (among multiple that ended up coming true i.e. a king with the head of a wolf, who we know ended up being Robb Stark at the Red Wedding) is a vision of a winter flower growing out of a wall of ice. This flower is the same one tied closely to Lyanna Stark (Rhaegar gives her a bouquet of winter flowers when he wins a tournament, they are the type of flowers that can be seen on her grave in the Winterfell crypts) Littlefinger again tells Sansa this story. The belief is that "the flower of Lyanna Stark growing out of a "Wall" of ice is Jon Snow"
Rhaegar also has a prophecy that he would be a "prince that was promised". Vague wording to say the least, as perhaps he himself would not be that prince but would in fact have "the prince that was promised", but very possible that Jon Snow could be that prince, which would also tie in very closely to the visions and prophecies that Melisandre believes.
The creator's of the show mentioned in an interview that one of the key components of them getting the seal of approval from GRRM before they started making the show was that they were able to lay out to Martin their theory of who Jon Snow really was and according to the author they got it right. Many believe this is the theory they went with.
If thats the case, seems very unlikely that Jon stays dead in some way shape or form. After all, the story is called "A Song of Ice and Fire". Everyone has assumed this means Jon and Dany coming together to fight off the White Walkers. What if Jon is actually both?
Plus Martin named Snow as one of 5 characters whose survival was important to the story in his original outlines. It's very possible this changed over time, bug I don't think there's any way Jon's story is done.
It is interesting...
My wife last night went to bed a little bummed out after the episode because, in her mind, Dany and Jon are the 2 main characters of GoT, around which the whole story revolves. And, if you think about it, she's right, everything that is happening in the story is eventually directly tying into the character development of those 2.
And... lets be honest, if the R+L=J theory wasn't valid, I'm not sure the show would have bothered even having that Littlefinger and Sansa scene earlier this season when she retold the story of it all.
The show bothered so that it could show us the brilliance and importance of the true hero of Westeros, Petyr Baelish, First of His Name.
So there are a few references being thrown around towards a "CLEGANE BOWL"
and for those unsure of what that means it is the idea that Robert Strong (the giant silent knight who picks up Cersei) is the reanimated corpse of The Mountain Gregor Clegane, and that he will serve as Cersei's champion for a trial by combat over her faith charges.
The faith's champion then is according to the theory will be Sandor Clegane, The Hound seeking final vengeance against his monstrous brother. The idea being that Sandor is found and nursed by the head monk of a monastery known as the Quite Isle that Brienne visits. She is told only that The Hound is dead, and that Sandor has found peace, while his war horse Stanger is kept there, and a large brother with a strong build and noticeable limp is observed digging graves.
I hope this ends up happening, as I really started to like The Hound during his stint with Arya. There was a lot more going on with his character than it seems when he is just taking orders from Joffrey. And yes, the show pretty much confirmed that Ser Robert Strong is The Mountain reanimated.
Just wanted to say, I have very much enjoyed discussing the show with everyone over this season. Really great thread, and one of my go to's now to talk GoT of all places.
Looking forward to maybe some good speculation talk until next season.
Agreed, I've learned a lot from the handful of book readers in this thread. Thanks.
I have found this forum to be a better and more organized discussion of things than even some ASOIAF fan sites. Bravo, ladies and gentlemen.
My wife said last night, "If I was in this crowd, I would say 'Damn, Cersei, keeping it tight! Props!'"
So for the Snow isn't really dead crowd.p, while that might be the case in the far future he won't be back next season. Just read an interview he gave where he stated he is NOT coming back for filming next season.
If only there was some form of alternate medium that didn't rely on actors to tell the story...
I kid of course, but even GRRM has responded in interviews to the question of whether or not Jon Snow is dead with "Oh you think he's dead do you?"
So who knows.
Source? Because if it's what I read, then Kit Harrington seemed to mean Jon Snow was not coming back next season (at least not as we know him), especially given that Harrington's contract for season 6 has been public knowledge for a while.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview
Eh, I always take actor interviews with a grain of salt around big things like this.
Spoilers for a 3 year old movie right here...so yeah.
My example of this: Before The Dark Knight Rises came out, Marion Cotillard said in an interview that her character was a completely original character, and not based off of any comic character.
Yet it turns out she was Talia al Guhl all along.
So TL;DR, always take actor/actress interviews with a grain of salt. There's a 50/50 shot they're lying to protect the creative process.
Or like how Cumberbatch told everyone all along his he was John Harrison in the latest Star Trek movie to thwart rumors he was Khan. Movie comes out and John Harrison turns into a pseudonym for Khan.
POSSIBLE SPOILER?
(Is it a spoiler if I'm speculating, and don't actually know myself?)
But yeah, I see it as "Jon Snow is dead... hee hee... reborn Azor Azhai Jon Targareon isn't dead but the interviewer doesn't know that..."
"Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."
-- Maester Aemon
It was leaked last year that most of the lead actors have already signed on for a Season 7:
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-...
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-cast-signs-seaso...
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/oct/30/game-of-thrones-seas...
Now that could all be bogus but in an interview about it Harrington voiced how he wasn't happy that his contract negotiations became public. Saying many of the facts were "inaccurate" but not denying that there is a contract for Season 7.
http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/211147/20150615/game-of-thrones-season...
The fact though is that Kit Harrington the actor was told that Jon Snow the character was dead. And though that sucks it doesn't put to bed any of the rumors. I would be very shocked if he doesn't somehow get back into the story in one way or the other, whether you believe the idea of him being reborn AA, being turned into the new King of the White Walkers and awakening the Ice Dragon, being turned in to a Coldhands type "good" wight, being resurrected in fire as per his targ blood and joining with Dany and Tyrion. There are so many theories there and the importance of Martin asking the showrunners one single question "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" to allow them to do the show, that it seems very unlikely that this is the end of Kit Harrington in GOT, though certainly the end of Jon Snow.
And Martin's comments on the matter:
http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-dead-finale-sea...
because it is known:
then again he may really just be dead, because:
Could just be we will spend an entire season waiting for him. The Greyjoys and Bran sat out this season afterall!
I for one CANNOT wait for the Bran Stark-Children of the Forest storyline to pick up next season. And of course Hodor will be back.
Hodor is always around... we get to see him pacing the sidelines wearing a headset weekly for UVa football...
Even Hodor would say "time out" more often than Mike London.
I finally got around to watching the finale and I think HBO screwed this all up. I had none of the immediate sense of withdrawal normally following season enders. They killed off the major storylines (not uncommon) without much transition material into the next big conflicts. Dany is the only one left. All of the other story lines have drug on with little effect or event. They needed to have spread the finale deaths over the previous two slow episodes. After reading this I think they could have left some major dramatic cliff hangers by either just showing a resurrected "Jon Snow" or a scene of Stannis as Brienne's captive or ANYTHING to hint at a major twist for next season. All I took from that is that the Lannister's in Kings Landing will be playing revenge politics without strong characters to deal with the Dorn, Dany is going to continue hitting roadblocks in Slavers Bay even as Tyrion starts his games, and Sansa is on the run. Arya keeps training without much hint at how that will join the rest of the story and the Bran story has been MIA for several episodes. All that spells to me is half a season of set-up shows to redirect the story lines back together. All the links were broken in this last episode and a lot of momentum seems lost.
The only problem with that is they'd be undercutting the books. The series has, more or less, ended up precisely where it is at the end of A Dance of Dragons. There are some differences, and the Stannis storyline is already beyond where it is in the books. Twists would be nice, but I was very happy with where they left it. Both the books and the show have left me hanging, saying "what next?"
The big reason for that seems to be the conscious decision by D&D the show runners to not dig into The Winds of Winter, the unreleased next book. So thereby giving Martin another 10 months to finish it, he is by accounts between 1/2 and 2/3 of the way done.
So the characters who followed their arcs on the page, Tyrion, Theon, Dany, Jon, Cersei, Arya, Stannis(with major caveats and changes), and Bran all needed to end basically how they do on the page. And that is exactly what we got.
So they basically copped out and just sidestepped the issue of overtaking the books for another season.
I wouldn't call it a cop out. How about respect. Respect for the man that is essentially making them a) incredibly rich and b) incredibly famous. They are afterall using Martin's material, and the same could be said as to why Martin defends their decisions on how they portray his story becase D&D are essentially making GRRM a) incredibly rich and b) incredibly famous.
The problem with this is that if they truly wanted a buffer of time to account for TWOW, they could have rather easily stretched the source material available to fit an additional season. Had they done this, several of the major plot points wouldn't have been rushed through, several minor ones could have been included, and people wouldn't have to put up with me demanding SOME GODDAMNED IRONBORN ALREADY.
I think another issue with the buffer of time is that from what I recall, I think HBO at most only wanted to pay for 8 seasons, and 8 was stretching it, they realistically wanted 7. So with that time/monetary demand from HBO, there is a limiting factor of how long they could stretch until TWOW, and in the future ADOS, was released.
Also, y'know people aging and dying and all that. There's already been some recasting due to ages (Tommen and Myrcella being most noted), and characters axed due to people dying.
It was meant to end at 6, but they have extended to 7.