Exactly!! What has he done to earn that? Yes he was a good college coach, then he was a good pro coach, so that makes him the fifth best college coach before his first game back?? At a different school, no less?? Where would they rank Pete Carroll if he came back? Let's see what he can do at this school before anointing him.
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Undoubtedly. He's won literally every single place he's been, usually at places that aren't easy to win at. There is zero question he's one of the best coaches in the country.
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Lol at Malzahn falling to 23rd. If Auburn had any kind of defense, he'd be top 10 for sure. Malzahn is arguably the best offensively minded HC in the nation, but when you're giving up 4 TDs per half within conference play, it's hard to argue the guy should crack the top 20.
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There's a difference between a good recruiter and good coach. I'm sorry, but there's no way Jimbo Fisher should be ahead of Frank Beamer. I know several people might agree with the that opinion, but FSU would be nothing if they didn't get every 5 star they laid eyes on.
Also, Bill Snyder is a great coach, but he's top 10 and Frank Beamer just cracks the top 50? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me considering Bill Snyder has only won 2 conference championships compared to Frank's 6 and the fact that Frank's been to a national championship. That wouldn't put Frank ahead of just Bill but plenty of other coaches listed in front of him.
In conclusion, that list was terrible in my "humble" opinion.
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I'm not sure of the criteria Hayes used in picking this order, and that's always the issue with these rankings. Do you pick an order based on actual performance? Do you do it relative to how that coach has fared throughout his career? Do you base it on if you were starting a program from scratch, who would you choose right now?
Anyways, it's not ridiculous that Franks current ranking is '50' given that he's posted three straight mediocre seasons at a school that is probably top 25ish in terms of resources.
There's a difference between a good recruiter and good coach. I'm sorry, but there's no way Jimbo Fisher should be ahead of Frank Beamer. I know several people might agree with the that opinion, but FSU would be nothing if they didn't get every 5 star they laid eyes on.
IMO, there are three things that measure the (on the field) quality of head coach:
Ability to 'set the tone' for a program - create an identity and recruit both players and assistants that match that system.
Ability to improve players over the course of a four-five year career
Ability to improve assistants over time
If a head coach is dabbling in X's and O's, then they are doing a poor job of delegating, and are not in fact a good head coach. You never a see a CEO of major corporation making daily decisions; I'm not sure why a coach would be any different. I don't understand how good recruiting can be a knock against a head coach?
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Your 3 criteria seem to show a disconnect with your acceptance of Beamer being so low. Other than Gary Patterson, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a coach that improves players over time. Beamer has consistently turned walkons and relative nobodies into big time players (Cody Grimm and Danny Coale anyone?). Same with assistants (Bud, Torrian, Cornell, Wiles, Shane, I'll even throw in Morehead). The "set the tone" criteria has waned some in recent years, but let's not forget where this program was before Frank, and how he managed the program from 2 wins to the National Championship game in 12 years, and took us from a middling independent, through the Big East, and into the ACC. Frank Beamer is the very definition of a transformative head coach, meets all your criteria, is the winningest active head coach in football, and shouldn't be anywhere outside the top 10 on any given coaches list.
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I'm not knocking Frank's resume, just praising Jimbo Fisher's on the field results/coaching. Like Andy said in the link I posted previously, these rankings are greatly dependent on the criteria you use. I think Frank's resume is in the top 5 of active coaches. However, his results over the last three years are far from top 5 coaching.
Frank Beamer is the very definition of a transformative head coach, meets all your criteria, is the winningest active head coach in football, and shouldn't be anywhere outside the top 10 on any given coaches list.
You site Beamer's ability to transform players, but what about coaches? Saban, Meyer, Chip Kelly, Chris Peterson and others have a 'coaching tree' - Beamer does not. Now - I do believe that our coaches love VT/Blacksburg so much, that they'd prefer not to leave, but the offensive side of the ball was really ignored from 2007 - 2012.
Also, I can't remember the last time VT had a top 20 consensus recruiting class? If bringing in the right personnel is 1/3 of what an excellent coach must do, then frank has not done enough to put himself up there with the Sabans, Meyers, Jimbos, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think Frank is a fantastic coach, I think he will turn it around, and I hope he continues to have lots of success at Virginia Tech. But lets not act like it's asinine to rank him behind a coach who's only lost 3(?) games in the three years after he took over a 6/7 win team.
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I agree with what your saying so +1, but some thoughts I had:
his results over the last three years are far from top 5 coaching.
It's funny thing this. By results yes this statement is true, but in actuality keeping the bowl streak alive and winning against OSU was remarkable given the state of the program. A state created when Beamer was pulling in 10 win seasons by not foreseeing the problem with his coaches and making proactive change. So were the last 3 years the bad coaching or the 3 - 4 years prior to that while we were winning? If we come out guns blazing this year, get back to 10 wins and play for the ACCC then Beamer should be considered to have done a great job these past 3 years shepherding VT through the mess, albeit the mess he made.
Beamer does not "have a coaching tree - I've had this conversation with a lot of people. Without a doubt I see the benefits of a coaching tree and how it can pay dividends with programs. Yet, if I had to be honest I still much prefer the stability we have at VT rather than the constant looking for the new savior. Beamer may not have had that many high profile staff come through but at the same time those are people that don't stay long. That stability needs to be fiercely maintained and cropped when necessary. We see the pains programs go through when they go through the coaching carousel every year, but the stability we had also came with it's own pains. Yet we now have Grimes, for better or worse, at LSU and AMO has gone now. Grimes a known quantity and AMO a rising star. And Beamer may not have been connected via a coaching tree branch, he was still connected to Searles through coaching, and Searles is looking to be a savior for our OL woes. Anyway, interesting topic.
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I realize that he didn't have the best record, but Ricky Bustle was the head coach at Louisiana Lafayette for 8 years (he never won more than 6 games, but he managed to do that 4 of his 8 years). And while we all hated his tenure as an assistant at Tech, Newsome is a D3 head coach at E&H who had a pretty good first year. That's at least two head coaches in Beamer's coaching tree and there are several more coaches that have the potential to be head coaches later. Off the top of my head I would say that Shane is the most likely to become a HC because I think he's willing to drop down to a lower level to get there., Foster, Gray, Loeffler, Moorehead, Grimes, and Stienspring (in the Dabo Sweeney model) also have HC potential. Searles has the talent, but I don't know if he has the desire for the top job.
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Beamer does not "have a coaching tree - I've had this conversation with a lot of people. Without a doubt I see the benefits of a coaching tree and how it can pay dividends with programs. Yet, if I had to be honest I still much prefer the stability we have at VT rather than the constant looking for the new savior.
That's kind of the point though - When you have a strong coach at the helm, you can lose personnel, but still be a stable program. Clemson lost Chad Morris, but the next guy up was able to step in and take over in the bowl game. OSU lost Tom Herman, but because Meyer run his program well, so Ed Warinner was able to step in. We have also seen this with Dantonio at Mich St, Chip Kelly at Oregon, etc.
I believe this has been established on the defensive side of the ball. If Foster left, I'd be relatively confident that Wiles/Torrian could take over DC duties. Not so much on the offensive side (we will find out in the next season or two if this has changed).
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Like I said I see the benefits and yes those are great examples of it working, but that still means you can have a high turnover on coaches if your always pulling from the tree. I would rather have coaches here for 10 years than coach for 2 move on for 6+ and then come back again later down the line. Gray could probably go anywhere he wants but he stays. I LOVE that about VT and Coach Gray. On offense I think the notion is essentially the same we just have never had our guy there like we had Bud.
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I agree, and I do think it says a lot about Frank that the defensive coaches have stuck around so long. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a high coaching turn over, nor do I think a coaching tree is 'required' but I do believe that there should be an 'exit plan' in place if a coach does chose to leave. Should it happen, say right before a bowl game, we should have an assistant who could step in and run the system. I'm not sure what would happen if Lefty took an HC offer and left before a bowl game? Maybe Stiney? Or Stacy? Would you be ok with either of those?
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Well Kansas State have been on the upswing while we've been on the downswing/stagnant. I guess these lists heavily depend on how the coach is doing currently and their room for future success, rather than historical success, which is the reason Frank fell 15 spots since last year.
And I'm sorry, but really? I mean I love Frank but ahead of Jimbo, after how he turned around FSU and won a NC and reached the playoffs? Sorry but no.
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My biggest issue with this list is the apparent lack of consistency when it comes to criteria. It's hard to tell what seems to matter most. Championships? Conference or national? Recent record? How recent? Building up programs? There are 12 coaches above Beamer who had 8 wins or fewer last year, including 5 who were 7-6 or worse last year. Notably, Bret Bielema, Butch Jones, and Pat Fitzgerald all have worse records than Beamer in the past 3 years (as well as the past 10 years), fewer 10 win seasons COMBINED in the past decade, and fewer conference championships in the past decade. It certainly feels as though Beamer is being punished for revitalizing VT so long ago.
Too much of this just seems to be based on perception and gut feeling.
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Comments
This list is overrating Timecop. I think he's somewhere closer to 129.
Nothin' plus nothin' times nothin' minus nothin' leave nothin'. Timecop should have no rating at all.
I don't agree with Harbaugh being number 5.
Exactly!! What has he done to earn that? Yes he was a good college coach, then he was a good pro coach, so that makes him the fifth best college coach before his first game back?? At a different school, no less?? Where would they rank Pete Carroll if he came back? Let's see what he can do at this school before anointing him.
I mean, they are ranking coaches, not the teams that they coach for. Harbaugh has done enough to warrant the ranking.
Undoubtedly. He's won literally every single place he's been, usually at places that aren't easy to win at. There is zero question he's one of the best coaches in the country.
Lol at Malzahn falling to 23rd. If Auburn had any kind of defense, he'd be top 10 for sure. Malzahn is arguably the best offensively minded HC in the nation, but when you're giving up 4 TDs per half within conference play, it's hard to argue the guy should crack the top 20.
There's a difference between a good recruiter and good coach. I'm sorry, but there's no way Jimbo Fisher should be ahead of Frank Beamer. I know several people might agree with the that opinion, but FSU would be nothing if they didn't get every 5 star they laid eyes on.
Also, Bill Snyder is a great coach, but he's top 10 and Frank Beamer just cracks the top 50? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me considering Bill Snyder has only won 2 conference championships compared to Frank's 6 and the fact that Frank's been to a national championship. That wouldn't put Frank ahead of just Bill but plenty of other coaches listed in front of him.
In conclusion, that list was terrible in my "humble" opinion.
As Andy Bitter wrote,
Anyways, it's not ridiculous that Franks current ranking is '50' given that he's posted three straight mediocre seasons at a school that is probably top 25ish in terms of resources.
IMO, there are three things that measure the (on the field) quality of head coach:
If a head coach is dabbling in X's and O's, then they are doing a poor job of delegating, and are not in fact a good head coach. You never a see a CEO of major corporation making daily decisions; I'm not sure why a coach would be any different. I don't understand how good recruiting can be a knock against a head coach?
Your 3 criteria seem to show a disconnect with your acceptance of Beamer being so low. Other than Gary Patterson, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a coach that improves players over time. Beamer has consistently turned walkons and relative nobodies into big time players (Cody Grimm and Danny Coale anyone?). Same with assistants (Bud, Torrian, Cornell, Wiles, Shane, I'll even throw in Morehead). The "set the tone" criteria has waned some in recent years, but let's not forget where this program was before Frank, and how he managed the program from 2 wins to the National Championship game in 12 years, and took us from a middling independent, through the Big East, and into the ACC. Frank Beamer is the very definition of a transformative head coach, meets all your criteria, is the winningest active head coach in football, and shouldn't be anywhere outside the top 10 on any given coaches list.
I'm not knocking Frank's resume, just praising Jimbo Fisher's on the field results/coaching. Like Andy said in the link I posted previously, these rankings are greatly dependent on the criteria you use. I think Frank's resume is in the top 5 of active coaches. However, his results over the last three years are far from top 5 coaching.
You site Beamer's ability to transform players, but what about coaches? Saban, Meyer, Chip Kelly, Chris Peterson and others have a 'coaching tree' - Beamer does not. Now - I do believe that our coaches love VT/Blacksburg so much, that they'd prefer not to leave, but the offensive side of the ball was really ignored from 2007 - 2012.
Also, I can't remember the last time VT had a top 20 consensus recruiting class? If bringing in the right personnel is 1/3 of what an excellent coach must do, then frank has not done enough to put himself up there with the Sabans, Meyers, Jimbos, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think Frank is a fantastic coach, I think he will turn it around, and I hope he continues to have lots of success at Virginia Tech. But lets not act like it's asinine to rank him behind a coach who's only lost 3(?) games in the three years after he took over a 6/7 win team.
I agree with what your saying so +1, but some thoughts I had:
It's funny thing this. By results yes this statement is true, but in actuality keeping the bowl streak alive and winning against OSU was remarkable given the state of the program. A state created when Beamer was pulling in 10 win seasons by not foreseeing the problem with his coaches and making proactive change. So were the last 3 years the bad coaching or the 3 - 4 years prior to that while we were winning? If we come out guns blazing this year, get back to 10 wins and play for the ACCC then Beamer should be considered to have done a great job these past 3 years shepherding VT through the mess, albeit the mess he made.
Beamer does not "have a coaching tree - I've had this conversation with a lot of people. Without a doubt I see the benefits of a coaching tree and how it can pay dividends with programs. Yet, if I had to be honest I still much prefer the stability we have at VT rather than the constant looking for the new savior. Beamer may not have had that many high profile staff come through but at the same time those are people that don't stay long. That stability needs to be fiercely maintained and cropped when necessary. We see the pains programs go through when they go through the coaching carousel every year, but the stability we had also came with it's own pains. Yet we now have Grimes, for better or worse, at LSU and AMO has gone now. Grimes a known quantity and AMO a rising star. And Beamer may not have been connected via a coaching tree branch, he was still connected to Searles through coaching, and Searles is looking to be a savior for our OL woes. Anyway, interesting topic.
I realize that he didn't have the best record, but Ricky Bustle was the head coach at Louisiana Lafayette for 8 years (he never won more than 6 games, but he managed to do that 4 of his 8 years). And while we all hated his tenure as an assistant at Tech, Newsome is a D3 head coach at E&H who had a pretty good first year. That's at least two head coaches in Beamer's coaching tree and there are several more coaches that have the potential to be head coaches later. Off the top of my head I would say that Shane is the most likely to become a HC because I think he's willing to drop down to a lower level to get there., Foster, Gray, Loeffler, Moorehead, Grimes, and Stienspring (in the Dabo Sweeney model) also have HC potential. Searles has the talent, but I don't know if he has the desire for the top job.
That's kind of the point though - When you have a strong coach at the helm, you can lose personnel, but still be a stable program. Clemson lost Chad Morris, but the next guy up was able to step in and take over in the bowl game. OSU lost Tom Herman, but because Meyer run his program well, so Ed Warinner was able to step in. We have also seen this with Dantonio at Mich St, Chip Kelly at Oregon, etc.
I believe this has been established on the defensive side of the ball. If Foster left, I'd be relatively confident that Wiles/Torrian could take over DC duties. Not so much on the offensive side (we will find out in the next season or two if this has changed).
Like I said I see the benefits and yes those are great examples of it working, but that still means you can have a high turnover on coaches if your always pulling from the tree. I would rather have coaches here for 10 years than coach for 2 move on for 6+ and then come back again later down the line. Gray could probably go anywhere he wants but he stays. I LOVE that about VT and Coach Gray. On offense I think the notion is essentially the same we just have never had our guy there like we had Bud.
I agree, and I do think it says a lot about Frank that the defensive coaches have stuck around so long. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a high coaching turn over, nor do I think a coaching tree is 'required' but I do believe that there should be an 'exit plan' in place if a coach does chose to leave. Should it happen, say right before a bowl game, we should have an assistant who could step in and run the system. I'm not sure what would happen if Lefty took an HC offer and left before a bowl game? Maybe Stiney? Or Stacy? Would you be ok with either of those?
Well Kansas State have been on the upswing while we've been on the downswing/stagnant. I guess these lists heavily depend on how the coach is doing currently and their room for future success, rather than historical success, which is the reason Frank fell 15 spots since last year.
And I'm sorry, but really? I mean I love Frank but ahead of Jimbo, after how he turned around FSU and won a NC and reached the playoffs? Sorry but no.
Beamer is 44th, and Fisher is the coach you are complaining about?
Fisher was just an example. There are plenty of names I believe Beamer should be in front of.
My biggest issue with this list is the apparent lack of consistency when it comes to criteria. It's hard to tell what seems to matter most. Championships? Conference or national? Recent record? How recent? Building up programs? There are 12 coaches above Beamer who had 8 wins or fewer last year, including 5 who were 7-6 or worse last year. Notably, Bret Bielema, Butch Jones, and Pat Fitzgerald all have worse records than Beamer in the past 3 years (as well as the past 10 years), fewer 10 win seasons COMBINED in the past decade, and fewer conference championships in the past decade. It certainly feels as though Beamer is being punished for revitalizing VT so long ago.
Too much of this just seems to be based on perception and gut feeling.