This is a topic that has been much debated on the site, with the majority of us clamoring for redshirt Freshman Trey Edmunds to get the starting position after we were sure that he would play some role last season. Instead, he was relegated to the bench and we ended up with a rotation of what seemed like every other running back on the depth chart. We all saw the results of that. The running game suffered tremendously, as none of those in the rotation could "get hot" and get into the game.
We had heard in the offseason that Michael Holmes was going to be the next Darren Evans for the Hokies, and many expected him to be the workhorse and to have a similar freshman season as Evans did. However, after having a decent first few games, his production took a steep dive and for that reason, the starting job was given to JC Coleman... Or so we thought. After an incredible rushing performance against Duke in a 2nd-half comeback win, Coleman was not the starter the following week, leaving everyone in Hokie Nation dumbfounded.
Now we have a new coach, Jeff Grimes, coming in as the Offensive Line Coach as well as Run Game Coordinator. I like this guy. I think you guys like this guy. What bothers me is that one of his titles is "Run Game Coordinator." What exactly does that mean? We have an Offensive Coordinator, Scot Loeffler, who should be picking the plays that we run on Saturdays. Does the Run Game Coordinator decide what kind of running plays are inserted into the playbook? Does he determine how many rushing attempts we use per game to maintain offensive balance? As far as I know, there hasn't been much clarification as to what that title represents. However, what I do know is that I feel confident about the growth of our O-Line under Grimes' tutelage. It may not happen this season, but I believe Grimes when he says that he's going to turn our line into the top in the ACC. My response to that level of enthusiasm is, "Why not the whole country?"
I certainly hope that his job isn't to set up a rotation. We should go with one feature back and maybe a change of pace guy on about 20% of the snaps. Over the years, this strategy has been largely successful.
THE QUESTION: We have a lot of options at running back, as we do every season. Who is your starter, and who would you have as the change of pace back? (I'm pretty sure I won't be surprised by responses. Expecting close to unanimous.)
Comments
Grimes & Loeffler
I just hope there is a clear leader on calling the shots on run plays, and not another O'Cainspring type situation.
Agree...
We should learn a lot more by the time #BeatBama rolls around. I hope.
It all depends on who the new coaches like, honestly. It shouldn't shock any of us if Holmes ends up being a stud this year now that we've ditched the East-West pistol from last year. He very easily could be the next Darren Evans (garauntee you Evans would have struggled as an East-West guy). I know everyone is going to be clamoring to see Edmunds, just because the backup is the most popular player on the roster, but I think that all bets are off with the new staff coming in (personally). Again, I'm not trying to poo-poo Edmunds, the guy sounds like a beast. I've just never seen him run, so I can't judge wether or not I want him being the #1 back.
So, just going off what I do know (and assuming the running game will be more North-South this year), I'd give it to Holmes, with J.C. as the change-of-pace back, and reserve the right to change it should Edmunds tear ass in the Spring Game.
Holmes is not going to be the stud.
What have you seen that would make you give it to Holmes? I've never seen Edmunds run either but I'd be willing to bet half a year of my salary that he's better than Holmes. I've seen Holmes run and if he's our starter then I'm worried about our new hires.
Holmes had his chance, and never seemed to hit the holes consistently. Time to give the others a shot.
What holes?
Frankly, the Offensive line and the running scheme was the problem. Stinespring and Co. spent to much time working on a poorly thought out scheme change, and by the time they realized it was a disaster, the damage had been done.
I could definitely see Holmes coming back this year and becoming a key part of our offense... IF the Oline improves as well as the running scheme.
the oLine did suck for the most part but I clearly remember plays where he had a hole and just didn't hit it. After those plays I looked at my friends and said, "Wtf he definitely had a hole there" and they just nodded in agreement. He's just not good.
I don't mean to be mean to him or anything, I just want what's best for our team and he is not it. Let's focus on Edmunds, JC, and Drew.
completely agree
Even on Special teams he seems to hesitate way too much. He rarely hits the hole without hesitating which allows the defense to collapse and shut it down. I for one became pissed everty time i saw him on special teams and in the backfield.
Holmes was not used correctly IMO. Granted he was a freshman and made his mistakes but he is a down hill runner and slasher. To many times was he put in the backfield with logan in shotgun under these read option type plays or pistol plays and expected to move East and West which isnt him.
Holmes showed promise IMO when he was used in the I formation and most of his longer runs were out of this.
It also did not help that our oline was constantly pushed into our own backfield
With that said i would prefer Edmunds and cant wait to see what Mangus brings to the table.
true
Holmes did do very well out of the I formation. Even though I would rather see Edmunds running it maybe Holmes does need a shot and could shine in the new North/South system.
Thank you! This is exactly what I was saying. I think Holmes needs another chance, and he could very easily be the next Darren Evans. We just need to play to his strengths and not his weaknesses more.
In a perfect world....
...it's JCC as the starter and main back. (well, in a more perfecter world, Drew Harris is here already) I don't buy any concern over JCC's size, plenty of guys his size have had very successful careers. He is very similar to Dion Lewis, who had a great career at Pitt and is still in the NFL as Shady's backup in Philly.
...and if JCC was the main back, we could move our boy Edmunds back to LB where he is desperately needed.
...but it's not a perfect world. I saw some things from JCC last year that bothered me. We had become pretty accustomed to backs who just didn't go down easily. Think of DW spinning and pushing for another 5 yards...never hitting the ground....or RW's brilliant ability to make an 8 yard gain out of a 3 yard gain. Or Evans or Ore or Suggs...who all had great forward lean and got those extra yards.
What we saw last year was an across the board inability to get any extra yards at all. So I'm concerned that JCC may just not have "it." I know Holmes doesn't have it. And I know what Gregory is.
So thanks to Drew Harris' inept high school guidance counselor, Edmunds is our guy with JCC as his hand-cuff. Holmes, shockingly, is still here. As is Gregory. I guess Mangus will get a shot.
It isn't a perfect world, but Edmunds looks like a good option. His 40 time is ridiculous for how big of a frame he has. He ran the same time as JC Coleman and he has a few more inches and about 30-40 pounds on him.
yeah, we haven't seen Trey play yet
but I have two concerns:
1. He play Single A ball in HS, so even though he was a stud, his level of competition was awful. My HS played his, it's just a different world.
2. Fumbles.
so if he can go through the Tiki Barber School of Fumble Fixing, I'm excited. But damn, it would be nice to have him at LB where we really are thin for the future. We need two Trey Edmunds! (Thanks Drew Harris' HS Guidance Counselor!)
The running games biggest enemy is a rotation, and I fear thats what we're looking at next year. Everybody keeps saying that the backfield having so much talent is a good problem for Shane to have, when it really isn't. It makes his job 100X harder.
I fear that we are going to let someone like JC get hot, and then throw in Edmunds or Mangus because they are talented enough to deserve a shot at it as well. Then maybe try Harris because he's also really talented. This method won't produce like we need it too.
At max there should be 2 backs rotating each game, and right now we have at least 4.
Edmunds
I am salivating to see Trey Edmunds at the Spring Game. Can't wait to see what this kid can do.
Ask, and ye shall receive...
Now, let me hit some points:
*Edmunds is an unknown, as others posted, but I think with his size and speed, he may be the mold of Lee Suggs/Darren Evans who power over folks, something we had in Martin Scales who wasn't used properly, IMO. That's why we need to go through spring camps and scrimmages to see who's going to separate themselves from the pack.
*Michael Holmes was a big disappointment, but was that all his fault or was it because he was waiting for the hole to open up so he could hit it? At the same time, I noticed he was "probing" along the line (running east or west) trying to find the hole. I think part of it was on the OL inability to generate the lanes.
*J.C. Coleman is a firebug. I love his speed and he loves contact. I would like to see him utilized like Percy Harvin was with Tebow, and maybe use Coleman as a slot back in certain passing situations.
* D.J. Reid sounds like a sleeper. The other Fork Union running back, Wright I think, sounds like a big one too. Chris Magnus may be in the mix.
I think it's important that Loeffler, Grimes, and S. Beamer sit down and exhaustively review films to see who really separated himself from the pack. Last spring, Holmes did that, and ended up 3rd on the depth chart. I think that part of the problem was inconsistent rotation and the little use of Martin Scales hurt the running game. Scales, for heaven's sake, was a converted fullback! He should have been used more.
I know I am forgetting something else I wanted to add, but I'm sure it will come to me later.
Thanks! I guess that makes sense, since choosing which running plays to use against a specific defense also involves using different blocking schemes. I can't wait to see these new coaches in action.
This article also seem to
This article also seem to explain it some more.
I just discovered that Jerome Wright, as I mentioned, is a 5'11" and 223 lbs tailback! That's is slightly bigger than Edmunds (6'1", 212 lbs). It sounds like we may have a pair of battering rams in the backfield!
40 times
Don't be to excited about 40 times. Al Davis used to jizz his pants over them but I don't think it got him very far, I'm excited to watch him play don't get me wrong but I'd prefer to have a back with an edge to him who runs like he has something to prove and punishes defenders who hit him whether it be Holmes Coleman whoever, I mean who knows maybe Holmes had recommitted himself we saw it happen with ore... I'm going to trust what the new coaches do and I cannot wait for the spring game....should be interesting
All 40 times need to be taken with a major grain of salt. These are hand-timed. If your timer is a half second too slow to start your timer, your time is suddenly world-class. If he he's a half-second too slow to stop it, your time is terrible. Thinking something hand-timed is accurate to 100ths of a second is absurd.
I think
The fact that Edmounds ran as fast as Coleman and Mangus at 215lbs is the bigger point not necessarily the science of timing.
Thanks.
That's what I was trying to get across... And said it explicitly in my comment, I think.
Don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think Hokieshibe may have meant the reason it seems Edmunds is the same speed as Coleman is because he got the benefit of a quick stop on the hand timed stop watch, where Coleman didn't. Or something to that effect. I know that VT 40 times are historically low (ie, guys get to the combine and their time goes up a tenth of a second or more), so I get where you are coming from with the 'relative' argument. But I think it's also possible that the hand timing doesn't even allow for that great of a 'relative' assessment (ie, Edmunds is as fast as Coleman). All of which is to say... Why do they even do it? Oh right, so we have something to talk about in March.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm trying to say. The margin of error is so huge either way, that you can't really rely on them at all aside from "he runs less than 5s, but more than 4s" which generally covers most of the faster skill guys on the team. The only way to really judge a guy's speed, IMO, is to watch them play.
I admit it is possible that Edmunds is just as fast as Coleman, but I'd want to see it on the field before I believe it. Coleman is pretty freaking fast.
Okay, my bad. Yeah, Coleman
Okay, my bad.
Yeah, Coleman is fast. He tweeted his 40 time the other day and said it had improved from last season. But again, to your point, it has to do with who's timing it I guess. There really needs to be a more automatic timer for these kinds of drills. There's way too much potential for human error as you said.
VT coaches have been timing players the same way for 25+ years
I don't think there's all that much variation in their methods after that much practice.
maybe a .01-.03 variation. But all these times are averages anyway.
Fact is that Edmunds is just about as fast as JCC, while being 5" taller and 20lb heavier. If he has learned to pass block he is going to be a beast.
IMO that says more about JC. 5" taller but only 20 lbs heavier? JC may be short, but he is NOT a small dude
I think "compact" is the proper term.
After watching senior highlight film from all of them, Trey Edmunds is not as fast as Chris Mangus.
More thoughts!
While writing an article, I realized something, Shane Beamer's coaching background have heavily been defensive orientated, and with that in mind, I think that may be why he struggled coaching the running backs. I'm not trying to make excuse, but let's pause for a moment. He pretty much had a ready made All-ACC, ACC Player of the Year in David Wilson, and I recall he saying that starting 2012, he would be earning his paychecks. So, last season was obviously a learning experience for him. On the flip side, he does have a valuable resource in the man, Billy Hite, but I don't know how often Shane talk to him.
I am more hopeful that Grimes can get the offensive line to overachieve this fall and make it a bit easier for the running back to bring the hammer on every carries.
I really don't think Hite's responsibilities
have changed. Well, he officially can't talk during games or something like that, but we see him breaking that all the time.
It's not like Billy Hite was in a RB's meeting and saw something with all his years of wisdom and decided not to tell Shane. The disaster last year wasn't the fault of switching from Hite to Shane, we basically had Hite + Shane and our RB's still bed-pooped all year.
if I was going to place blame on the RB problem last year, I would put it at an overall lack of offensive vision and a system erosion of confidence between the players and coaching staff. Ever worked in a bad company and performed under your abilities? That was last year's offense. Less than the sum of their parts.
Agree that it wasn't Shane's fault. Honestly, the rb coach shouldn't have that much in game control on who stays in, who goes out, etc. The rb coach should coach them up on techniques in individual drills and coach them up on their roles in individual meetings, but when it comes down to game preparation scrimmages and actual in game personnel management, the decision should be made by the OC. The OC is supposed to have complete control and have an understanding of what rb fits HIS plays, so he (or they in our case) would have been the ones making the calls on rb personnel. Shane is supposed to just coach them up when they do come to the sideline.
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are missing my point. I am referring to Shane's coaching background, which have largely been defensive responsibilities, and I believe coached safeties and linebackers as well as co-coordinating special teams in his last stop at South Carolina. He came to Blacksburg and became a running back coach. The last time he coached running back was one year at Mississippi State and then they reassigned him to coach the secondary, IIRC. So, I think the running game struggled along with his coaching, and with a full year under his belt, I think Shane have learned a few things that worked and didn't.
Yes, I have worked under a lousy company before, and it was largely due to lousy supervising who did not pay attention to the issues that was plaguing the production line, which was why I finally quit working there after 2 and half years of being so stressed out it affected my personal life.
I will give you a point for pointing out the lack of offensive identity that plagued the team all year long. I am hopeful Loeffler and Grimes will change that.
After more consideration....
I imagine that if Hite was still heavily involved, it could have also led to confusion from the players and some chain-of-command issues.
I can see what Frank was thinking, if Shane was to take over a position that he has little experience with, having Billy around to mentor would be helpful. One could also make the case that RB's coach at VT is about the easiest assignment we've got, we always have RB's. Just roll the balls out, as they say in hoops.
But the end result was a clustertruck. I'm just not ready to assume it was entirely (or, IMO, even mostly) due to Shanes lack of experience coaching the position. Coaches change position responsibilities all the time. I was always shocked at the breadth of experience Cav has had coaching, he's coached pretty much everything. A smart coach can adapt, and having a broad understanding is particularly useful for a young coach destined for HC duties in the (not so distant) future.
Clustertruck is putting it mildly, but yeah, it was an epic disaster. Again, that's why I'm hoping Loeffler and Grimes can change that with a commitment to returning to brusing running game.
One good thing about last season was the reduction in fumbles lost by the running backs, so maybe the stick and boxing glove thingamig worked. I think Shane got some seasoning, and I'm also hoping he will improve as a coach.
As David Wilson showed in New York,
Hes just a fumbler. So him not getting 70% of the carries should have reduced the fumbles.
Edmunds is supposed to be a fumbler. We'll see how that goes....
David Wilson had 1 fumble in his 71 carries as a New York Giant.
Which is why he's taking the place of Bradshaw for my G-Men. Just ask the Saints if he's a big play threat.
that's interesting
I could have sworn it was more, but I don't watch much NFL. I guess it was such a public fumble that they kept talking about it. And, you know, he cried.
You can also
Consider Drew Harris? If he gets something in on time for once he could enroll in the summer. Is there any new thing on him?
I didn't include Drew in there for that reason... There's just so many variables on whether or not he'll get here quick enough to get valuable practice time. And even if he does get to VT by Summer Practice, there will be 4 or 5 running backs who have more experience with the offense because they were there for Spring, and some of them since January.
indeed
if he can get through the NCAA Clearinghouse he still has to outperform older players, along with that hurdle that trips up a lot of freshman RB's - proving that he can pass block.
*I want to see us have a feature back that gets 70%-80% of the carries. I do not like going through a rotation of 2-3 backs. It doesn't give the RB a chance to get in the rhythm or feel of the game. (RB1 breaks off a couple good runs, starts to get in the groove, then is pulled out and gets cold sitting over on the bench for one or two series while RB2 & RB3 do their thing.)
*I really want to see what Edmonds or Drew Harris (fingers crossed) can do. Holmes just didn't show that he has the "it" factor. RmfW had it. Evans had it. DW had it. Jones had it. Suggs had it. Ore had it to an extent. Every time Holmes got the ball you didn't have that feeling that something could happen. A lot of the problem might have been due to an inept O line. I can understand that. But I'm trying to recall one memorable Holmes run from last season, and I can't. The O line couldn't have been that dismal to not provide enough blocking for at least one great run over the course of the season. He just hasn't showed us that he has the speed or vision of a great back.
*JC Coleman might have the "it" factor. He showed some flashes of greatness from time to time. I'm just not sure he can be tackled and fall for an extra 3 yard everytime like the greats mentioned above did. Those kind of yards help so much on each drive. If Edmonds or Harris don't turn out to be what we need I think JC should get a chance as the "every down" back. I would much rather see him back there than Holmes.
*I'm curious to see what Chris Mangus can do. Maybe in a back up/limited role first. Also, Tony Gregory is fine in a backup role but I can't see him being the feature back.
*I have not seen any of the incoming freshman play and don't know much about them. I would be very suprised to see them on the field much considering we haven't put a true freshman RB out there very much.
One run Holmes made stuck out in my mind and that's during the Cincinnati game. He finally went ape shit when he crossed the plane, and Armkera with a sweet driving block. I think French made a film review of that game.
In the Miami game, Holmes hit the jet in one of his snap, and got a first down, but was pulled out just as he was getting hot.
70-80% of the total carries, or tailback touches? Loeffler has said the QB will part of his running game, and I'm hoping we'll see more non-option touches for Logan, like QB blast or power. I'd like to have one back carry the ball 55% of the time, Logan touch it 15% of the time, with the rest of the carries belonging to a change of pace back.
70% of the tailback touches. Not counting Logan. Really I just want to have a feature back...get rid of the rotation deal.
Your scenario of 55% RB1, 15% Logan, and 30% back up/change of pace guy would be fine with me.
thatd be great. logan as our leading rusher was horrible last year. it has a chance to really get him hurt. there is no reason the rotation should have even happened last year. no one could get into a groove and it showed. edmunds and coleman would be my choice for our two backs and i kind of have a feeling thatll be what it ends up being
Agreed. Especially when he faces more physical teams, we need other backs to be able to run the ball
well
lets be honest logan thomas didnt have like a thousand yards or anything either hahaha none of our RBs had a particularly large amount of yardage, i just want a 1000 yard back! is that really to much to ask?!
You are starting to see more and more NFL teams using two backs in games and splitting carries. That is simply because over the course of a season that pounding will take its toll. The only way a running back has a rhythm or feel is if the o-line is blocking worth a crap and if they are it shouldn't matter if you are getting 10 reps or 40 reps, you should be running as if it was your only carry of the game!
rb rotation
If you have a good game plan, line and talented backs, a solid RB rotation is no big thing. Just look at bama. They've had an almost 60 30 10 split for the last 4 years with pretty positive results.
As for the QB running -- no doubt I love watching Thomas truck the shat out of people, but I'm not a fan of it being a big part of the game plan. It just puts too much pressure on 1 player. What if he has a bad day? His shoulder/arm gets sore after being hit? I like having the option of a running qb that takes off when necessary, I just dont think we should build a game plan around it.
Bama comparisons aren't valid
Bama has also had nothing but four and five star rbs for their rotations. Behind huge four star O lineman.
I don't see what that isn't
I don't see why that isn't valid. The only thing we are missing is the OLine that they have and I think he's saying if we fix that then why can't we do the same. Personally I agree with him. If we get an improvement in the OLine play and Grimes recruits and develops that way he has shown he can then why not? We don't have an issue bringing in talented RBs, I'd put our RB "talent" on par with most programs in the country.
I think there's a major gap between our current oline play and Bama's. I like Grimes a lot, but I'm not sure he's a miracle worker. That said, I do think we could get closer to that, and develop a similar mauling mentality and be much improved.
"on par with most programs in the country" Exactly. Bama isn't most programs, they are in a league all their own. Let's be serious about this. I'm not saying we don't recruit talented running backs and I'm not saying I'm against a rotation, but to compare our rotation with Bama's just doesn't make sense to me. They replaced a heisman winner with a heisman finalist then replaced him with a potential first/second round pick and he's being replaced by Yeldon, who will be one of the top backs this year. Get my drift?
Furthermore, to say "the only thing we are missing is the oLine" is very deceptive. The running game (and the offense for that matter) begins with a good oLine. You can't just say "the only thing we're missing is the oLine" like that's just easy to attain. We're many years away from having an oLine rotation that compares to Bama's.
I don't want to argue about this anymore. I just think Bama comparisons aren't logical and not only for us, but for 95% of the nation. But with all of that being said.... #beatbama
I don't think anyone said its easy and I see your point and it is extremely valid, but it's no fun to compare us to say an FSU or Texas. I'd rather benchmark against the best and see how we can improve to try to match them. Also to your point, if you put our backs behind bama's line they'd be hesiman winners too. You don't think Evans, Williams, and Wilson wouldn't be talked about like Ingram, Richardson, and Yeldon are?
I agree we don't just flip a switch and we have bama's line, but i think you are also discounting that one of their biggest strengths is team play. Everyone on that team knows their job and their line is awesome because they play as a team. I think if Grimes can coach what we have up AND get them all on the same page we will see significant improvement over what we just had.
I'm sure why this is an argument. I think this is an enlightened discussion between fans on a message board that are bored out of their minds because there is no football yet.
speaking of FSU...
get this, my horrendously awful high school football program apparently hired their offensive line coach as a head coach (why in gods name he left FSU for James wood high school I dont know, apparently hes an alumn or something) however think this could hamper their line development? i just upon hearing the whole thing thought it was kinda funny to leave a division one power house for a below average (we won 2 games last year apparently) high school program
I know you said you dont want to argue this anymore... but I wasnt trying to compare us to 'Bama. Rather point out one team that consistently has a good running game with a large RB rotation. If you wanted, I could have used Wisconsin as an example. Yea their line is better than ours (whos isnt) but our running backs are generally better.
You could even use us in 2010 as an example if you wanted. We had 4 players with over 100 attempts, and none with more than 150. We had more yards that year and a higher average per attempt at least since 2007. Sure we had a bunch of studs in the backfield that year, but RMFW was hurt half the year, DW was still a sophomore and our line was arguably one of the weaker ones we've had (weakest line being last year probably).
My point isn't to compare teams, but to point out that a RB rotation is fine... IF its not just random rotations and you call plays to each players strength. Dont have Holmes do sweeps. Let Gregory and Coleman go to the outside etc. As long as they players know the gameplan and what the coaches expect of each of their runs, I dont think a player has to have 20+ carries a game to get a rhythm going. I'd say if you have the RB talent (up for discussion obviously) 10-15 carries each is enough to keep the players rhythm while keeping them rested the whole game.
Maybe we won't be the bruiser running team that Bama is, but we can get back to being the best in the ACC (I won't count GT because of the unique offense they run)