1. This has nothing to do with football, so it shouldn't be used to detract from their football team.
2. The actions of a few people shouldn't be used as an excuse to detract from the university as a whole. We've had our fair share of shitheads, so let's not get self-righteous.
3. Old news. Been discussed before. Drink.
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Giant Turkey Leg for you. I'd also like to add that not only is the band just one part of the University, this songbook was known of and used by less than 2% of members.
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But I think the difference here is that we should not trivialize this as ammo to poke at OSU or fuel to "root for the good guys."
this is the issue I had with the post. When I first saw it my immediate thought was that you came across as "Hey, look, we should all hate OSU because they're all *********s" which is an unfair assessment. Considering the amount of traffic that this site sees from OSU fans this particular thread made us look like weasel-y politicians slinging mud to make them look bad and give our fan base a reason to hate all things Buckeye. That makes us look bad and classless and I didn't care for it. I may be mistaken, but I thought the title of the Forum was different (has it changed to be more toned down?) originally and gave the impression that you were ready to get the pitchforks out and stab at anything wearing red.
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Yes, as HightyTighty noted below, the OP was edited. It originally said "Another reason to root for the good guys..."
Which is why I initially took issue with it as well.
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1. Actions of universities are discussed here all the time see UNC academics, FSU, Pen St, etc etc
2. If this is the behavior of said universities very large band and said band will be performing at my school then yes.....it bothers me and worth noting. Since the band typically travels
3. Deleted? Are the threads about UNC scandals deleted?
4. As a Jewish Hokie I would expect more support in this forum
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I will not echo the condemnation above, to me this is just a duplicate topic, as we briefly talked about this before. But I think the difference here is that we should not trivialize this as ammo to poke at OSU or fuel to "root for the good guys." The ugly actions of a select few have been universally condemned and the band director has been fired. The OSU fan base and people over at 11W are disgusted, too, so this (especially in light of the massive thread about OSU fans being "delusional" sparking a bunch of arguments among people) just seems unnecessary to harp on.
The difference with, e.g. FSU, UNC, Miami, etc. is the willful disregard for academics, NCAA rules, and public safety in those situations; discussions of NCAA rules and contrasting policies of VT with those institutions is of interest in these forums. The extent to which all of those institutions have doubled down on their innocence or systematically covered up massive academic scandal is wildly different than some people in a band being assholes.
A humble request would be that if you're going to post a story that is nearly 3 weeks old (according to the article's date), please at least check the tracker around those dates. We have an ever-increasing volume of new threads; odds are things are going to be posted and discussed within a day or two of whatever it is happening. Then we move on.
I don't know why everyone is coming down hard on you. There was no outrage the first time this came up, though people were probably more attracted to the announcement that day of the OSU players' suspensions.
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1. Yes, and there is generally depth to those discussions, not just "another reason to hate X," and they are brought up in a generally timely manner, and in each of those instances, the incident discussed has DIRECTLY impacted the sport of football.
2. It was a fraction of the band IN 2012. Their band has been smacked pretty hard recently, and this sort of thing is almost definitely not still occurring.
3. Double posts ARE generally deleted.
4. That is the most ignorant statement you've made thus far. You shouldn't get different treatment because of religious affiliation. All men being created equal and whatnot. Secondly, many other groups besides jews died in the Holocaust, so this isn't specifically anti-semitic, but rather just generally abhorrent behavior. I, as a middle-class, Christian, white male, find the song to be perfectly despicable, as would most, and we don't need to invoke our demographic data as reasoning that it is unequivocally wrong.
I hope you take the criticisms on this thread constructively, and I look forward to your next forum topic being better than this go round.
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Wow just sad. Someone emailed me the link to this story (first I have heard of it), it bothered me as they are coming to our game, so I thought I'd share here.
"That is the most ignorant statement you've made thus far." Please get off your high horse. This story hits home more for some then others and that was what I meant. The point was not about religion. If there was a song about 9/11 I would expect it would effect someone who lived in NY more deeply than me.
In terms of the double post, I check here once every day or so and this was the first I've heard, but good god will I make sure to go CSI next time. Was posting from phone and watching kids so not always the easiest thing to do.
Guitarman feel free to delete away. sheesh
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I'm with you, the piling on in these comments is a little much. It's newsworthy and topical. Yeah, it was a double post, but like I've pointed out before, the search function is poor when searching for forum topics that have dropped off the front page.
This incident reflects poorly on OSU and its band. Sure, it's been discussed and addressed by the university and the band, but it's definitely worth bringing up. I don't get the criticism you're receiving. You thought it was worth bringing up for discussion. So do I.
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The search function is non-functional to the point where I struggle to find topics when I know exactly what I'm searching for. I also think it's fair to bring up the topic as long as it doesn't implicate the entire university or fan base, which doesn't seem to be the case here. Frankly I found some of the quotes from the story shocking.
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First off, I'll apologize if my tone came off as hostile, and for all the piling on people did. I think it has a lot to do with an abundance of similar comments on many threads where it comes off as meaningless trash talk and grasping for reasons why we're better than them, and thats how your post seemed as originally written, which is why my first post in this thread went point by point with what was wrong with doing that. If the conversation you were trying to have was about concerns over the band specifically, then you should have led the discussion with a short paragraph detailing your thoughts on the source material, and what specifically you wanted to discuss within the story (as suggested in the community guidelines). It's far more conducive to a productive, thoughtful discussion than one pithy line. So it's not so much the double post that people took exception to, it seems to have been the content (or lack thereof).
Now, as for the ignorant comment, that IS how that came off, and I was trying (heavy handedly, I'll admit) to explain that it's unnecessary (also against community guidelines). Absolutely no need to invoke the fact that you're Jewish, because it insinuates that those of us who aren't Jewish don't have the same capacity for offense when it comes to casual holocaust jokes, and I take great exception to that. It's simply not the case. You make the assumption that it "hits home more for others," but you cannot know who it affects and how. What we do know for certain is that many, many people from many, many backgrounds, both inside and outside OSU were disgusted by the actions of those involved. Not because it specifically hits us, or those around us, but because it is an inherently shitty thing to do.
So, again, sorry for how this thread went, and I hope we can have more constructive conversations in the future.
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Absolutely no need to invoke the fact that you're Jewish, because it insinuates that those of us who aren't Jewish don't have the same capacity for offense when it comes to casual holocaust jokes, and I take great exception to that. It's simply not the case.
Sorry, no. Anyone can take exception to a Holocaust joke, but actually BEING Jewish adds a dimension that gentiles will simply never quite be able to identify with. (And I say this as a gentile.) It's one thing to know that it's abhorrent. It's another to have a grandmother or a grandfather with a tattoo from a concentration camp, or to know that some of the claw marks on the walls of the gas chamber at Auschwitz were made by one of your ancestors.
My wife (also a Gentile) worked as a counselor at a summer camp for Jewish children after graduating college. She got to know several of the families that sent their kids to camp there, and became probably as well versed in Jewish customs as anyone who has never been to temple ever has. And from talking to her about it, I can honestly say, as a Caucasian American of Irish heritage, there is NOTHING that comes even remotely close to affecting me and my cultural identity as the Holocaust has for modern Jews. My ancestors were spat on as they got off the boat at Ellis Island, but theirs were herded by the millions like cattle straight to their deaths, subjected to torture-porn-level medical experiments without consent, and an assortment of other atrocities too hideous to discuss.
So, yeah, no, sorry. You can take exception to a Holocaust joke. But you have no idea what it's like to even think about the Holocaust if you're Jewish.
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Please refer back to my first comment in this line. Almost half of those killed in the Holocaust were not Jewish. It was an atrocity perpetrated against a great many people. I'd agree that those actually there may have more claim to offense than all the rest of us, but for those of us who didn't actually experience it, I'd say we're on equal ground when it comes to our capacity to find the Holocaust wrong.
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As someone who is ethnically Jewish and whose great grandmother emigrated from Russia to Europe to escape persecution only to have to flee to the US with her kids during the war, I'd like everyone to consider this.
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Edited: Removed personal comments. The discussion hit a little too close to home.
Not edited: Also, on a side note, Schotenstein (owner of value city furniture) is a HUGE OSU donor (and jewish). The gorgeous basketball stadium is named after him (the Shot). Even as a small contingency of the OSU band, this is beyond stupid.
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and this is about the time when I break this back out:
I am not the moderator. But you all are wading into waters WAY OUTSIDE the community guidelines. How about everyone stop with the "how this affects who more" and get back to the conversation that the two OSU fans below are having, which is about the band and it's failure in leadership. I find their differing takes on the "investigative" nature of this article very interesting.
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I'll grant you that Hitler was an equal opportunity asshole, and he had no qualms wiping out any race or ethnicity that varied from his Aryan ideal. But the Third Reich was propped up specifically on a foundation of blaming the Jews. Mein Kampf is a manifesto of everything the Jews had supposedly done to undermine the integrity of the German state. And in justifying the genocide of other groups, Hitler and the Nazis invariably tied it to these groups' supposed ties to the Jews.
As for saying only the people physically there would feel the insult more deeply, let me just give a practical example. If someone were to make a joke about 4/16, anyone could (and should) take offense to it. But as Hokies, wouldn't you agree that we feel it more deeply, even if we ourselves had graduated prior to the event and weren't physically present for it? It's become ingrained as a part of our cultural identity, and people who aren't affiliated with this culture, while feeling justifiable outrage, don't feel it exactly the same way we do. That was the point I was trying to make.
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Why is everyone jumping down AZHokie's throat about this? We've discussed so many things way off topic than this. Hell I just started a post on Mr Robot that is about anarchism and hacking corporate and government systems. He made no association to the football program (unless he edited text) and despite what others commented it is directly related to the school we are playing on Sept 7, as well as being something important socially.
For me, I look at this from a psychological point of view. I personally doubt that everyone in the band was comfortable with this but with a charismatic leader and peer pressure of those following that leader and their bandmates before them. It's a common issue in college life that leads many to do things that they would otherwise never consider. I realize this is THE college band but to me with all this going down I really expected OSU admin to do more to penalize it already, even without this coming to light. I hope some positive example is going to be made of all this.
Thanks for the post. Now back to some football!
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As I posted above, much of the piling on likely has to do with the plethora of similar comments on other threads. I addressed three issues, and it snowballed.
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I don't know. I thought that little addition definitely set the tone for the post. Had it just been posted with the link as a topic of discussion (even though it has been previously discussed, and I'll give AZHokie the benefit of the doubt that he missed that) with something along the lines of "SMH," "What is going on with the OSU band?" or the like I wouldn't have been so quick to condemn it. I just think it was in very poor taste to sort of suggest we should gloat over something some terrible people did when those people do not represent the school as a whole and have been vilified by the OSU fanbase as well as our own.
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I just think it was in very poor taste to sort of suggest we should gloat over something some terrible people did when those people do not represent the school as a whole
in general i wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying, and given the conversation quickly went to race i fully support this. in a sports and rivalry sense though we do no different when equating all UNC athletes as cheaters, FSU football players as criminals and lolUVA as well utterly lol. well, ok that last one is not a generalization. (not to say he was equating everyone at OSU as antisemitic, just replying to your comment)
my point is if it was only a comment regarding having another reason for beating them then we also shouldn't presume anything more into the comment than simply beating them on the field. unfortunately the conversation crossed community guidelines and it shouldn't have.
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I dunno, I have to disagree a bit there. That little part took the OP from informative post discussing a topic of an upcoming opponent to something that was intending to be inflammatory. Pretty sure that's against the CGs.
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I'm not sure that this is helpful, but I'll post it anyways. Buckeyes everywhere are appalled. We take HUGE pride in the band. Jon Waters, the fired director thought that this "songbook" was long gone by the time he was director. My niece was a 4 year band member & 1st sousaphone. She is the first woman to "Dot the I" at a Michigan game (home or away). She's also 1/2 white & 1/2 black. In 4 years she never saw this "songbook" and says it is a frat-boy clique passing this shit around. It would NEVER have been tolerated by her, the Jews, blacks, women, gays, general band members at large, or band director. Not in a million years. Another black eye for TBDBITL.
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While that Might Be true about the majority of the band not seeing this song book. It's not disputed that many other horrific things were happening in the band with the the full knowledge of almost every band member. From some horrific "Nicknames" if not outright hazing. That band director should have been fired and allot of staff and students need to take a look in the mirror and decide if that's who they truly are as a person.
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The whole investigation was nothing more than a witch hunt. What you have read is a very one sided view point.
I am friends with multiple Ohio State Band Members and Band Alumni, none of whom were aware of this book, and none of whom were ashamed of their nicknames.
"I feel obligated to share as an alumni member of the band who is Jewish. Never once did I feel discriminated against or hated because of it in my 3 years.
I also have to say this: people have been targeting me with Holocaust jokes since I was in middle school. If the mere existence of that song is evidence of a "culture problem," it is not with the band. It's with the widespread youth.
Thanks for writing, NAME DROPPED!" - OSU Band Alumni on this letter written by another band member to the author of the WSJ article.
"Ms. Terlep,
i know that in our brief, yet honest, interview that I didn't have time to tell you
about my study abroad experiences while here at Ohio State. l'd like to share a bit
with you now, because of its newfound relevance. In May 2014 I spent May-term in
Jerusalem as part of a course taken here at OSU, and it was one of the most eye-
opening and beautiful experiences I've ever had. For two weeks we spent time
touring the most important political and spiritual sites on both the eastern and
western sides of the city, meeting wonderful people on all sides of the modern
conflict, enriching our knowledge of history, and eating incredibly delicious food.
One of the most poignant things i learned from that trip was the impact of our living
history- that events such as W" and the Holocaust are not horrors of our past so
much as the predecessors to the aftermath in which we live. They are grim, daily
reminders of the hideous capabilities of human nature when perverted to the
extreme. In short, not a joke. Not even close.
imagine my surprise when, instead of a well-rounded article with contributions
from my interview throughout, a tabloid appears from the Wall Street Journal
further denouncing our already embattled band for having sung songs mocking the
Holocaust. The article makes it appear as though all 225 of us regularly stood in a
circle, held hands, and sang this filth as a campfire song. l had never heard it in my
life.
For four years this band has been my identity, the highlight of my university career,
and my family. i searched vainly in your article to find anything resembling my
experience, any evidence that I even spoke with you. I found nothing.
What is most painful is the idea that a song which most of us never even knew
existed and would be appalled by if we heard sung is now highlighted
internationally, and with MY name tied irrevocably to it. Can you imagine having an
integral part of your identity, one that you held so dear and were so proud of,
suddenly reduced to a shameful remark made by someone else and then smeared
across headlines without warning and without reason? it disgusts me to think of the
amount of people who will be unnecessarily hurt and offended by this, when before
the story broke the tasteless joke was shared between perhaps three members of a
university band in Ohio. Was there any purpose of integrity for making this national
news?
it will not enlighten you at all to say that this pathetically small spectacle is not at all
representative of the band: its leadership, its students, and certainly not its core
purpose of representing the Buckeyes and the entire state of Ohio. You already
knew that, having interviewed students like me who have spent years in the band
and have overwhelmingly had positive experiences.
The fact of the matter is that my story (or any real story from the band members
you interviewed) doesn't sell, does it? N 0 one cares that a woman like me
auditioned for and spent four years in a majority-male organization and was never
once harassed. How terribly boring! Never mind that the story about the songbook
was already broken- you were going to have your piece of it by hurling it back into
the spotlight. To say that you knew that this story would hurt many people and that
you wrote it anyway is beside the point. You knew this story would outrage many
people, and 50 you wrote it. You are a journalist experienced enough to know that
truth isn't particularly lucrative, and you capitalized on it.
In the 12 months since the unjust firing of our director, we as band members have
all been shouting the same things. We do this via social media, local news sources,
even with a demonstration of strength and solidarity by playing a particularly
meaningful piece at a skull session, hoping someone will listen. Our experiences
with all forms of media have thus far been immensely disappointing. They are
looking for the dirt, not the whole story, and our voices are lost each and every time.
Yet I must admit, during our short meeting, that you gave me a small glimmer of
hope that a just representation of the band might come to light. Maybe, just maybe,
my voice would be heard and have impact. It's clear to me now just how foolish that
was.
The best I can do is to continue to fight the stigma, the misconceptions, and the
insults to the best of my ability and on my own. In the OSUMB we often like to
remind each other that this band is bigger than just one person, that we are a part of
something greater. 1 know that one day, when I am much older and you have retired
with a handsome amount of money and no longer remember even writing this story,
that the band will continue doing great things. For now, that knowledge will have to
be enough.
Regards, (name omitted)" (Forgive odd capitalization/Formatting, used pic to text internet site)
The way this band member describes the "investigative journalism" (see hack journalism) is also the way 100% of band members I have met describe how the entire investigation into the OSUMB.
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I disagree about your characterization of the report. Having read the report it was a classic failure leadership on Jon Water's part, IMHO. Having some experience in investigations and dealt with culture issues at work, I've learned that what people will say publicly and what they'll say not for attribution are often different. Given the strong sense of belonging in TBDBITL, it's not surprising that no one publicly will say "It was bad" and be ostracized as "the person who destroyed the band and cost JW his job..." Even complaining about something, within the organization, in such a tight group often brands one as a troublemaker and "outsider."
The band had a culture problem, and JW was tasked with fixing it. Ultimately, for me, the statement were not what pointed to a failure of leadership.Culture problems are fixed by decisive action, not by slow deliberate action. As the leader, he has ultimate responsibility for what goes on in the band.
Personally, I think JW was caught between leading and being one of the guys. He grew up in the band and it's hard to make the transition to leading and changing a culture that has molded and shaped you. He no doubt was trying to make changes, but slow changes usually result in the culture overwhelming the change and maintaining the status quo.
The band will no doubt go on and continue to be great. Band members have a right to be proud of their membership and upset that a small number brought disrepute on it. But strong leadership is needed to make that happen and JW apparently wasn't the right guy to so do.
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The whole investigation was nothing more than a witch hunt. What you have read is a very one sided view point.
I am friends with multiple Ohio State Band Members and Band Alumni, none of whom were aware of this book, and none of whom were ashamed of their nicknames.
"I feel obligated to share as an alumni member of the band who is Jewish. Never once did I feel discriminated against or hated because of it in my 3 years."
----------------------------------
I disagree. Finding a member of the band who is willing to overlook this as a serious issue doesn't mean the investigation and findings were overblown.
We all know that things like this exist in part because they are ignored. The behavior was unacceptable, and the leadership deserves some condemnation in as far as they condoned it. You can claim they didn't know about it, but "secret" traditions like these are often very widely known. That a Jewish band member would hesitate to condemn it shows just how strong team or fraternal associations can be.
I don't think it's fair to assume the worst of the university, or the band as a whole, or the football team, but it is correct to condemn this behavior and to call it out.
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It is perfectly correct to call out this behavior and condemn it, but what is not correct is to unfairly make it seem as if it was a large part of OSUMB culture when it was not. How would you feel if you were a recent alumni of the OSUMB having to face judgement, scutiny, and answer questions for something you had no knowledge of and had nothing to do with. It's not about condoning the actions at all.. it's about keeping the condemnation specific to the actual people who had something to do with it. It disgusts me that my friends' names are being dragged through the mud.
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Nobody outside the band can say with 100% certainty how many people in the band knew about it, and there is a pretty strong motivation to disavow any knowledge of it.
This isn't a story about one song, it's a story about a very strong band culture and tradition clashing with a newly-found societal intolerance for political incorrectness. We know for a fact that strong group associations can be so strong as to allow people to overlook the most atrocious behavior.
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@ Hokie Fireman. A word about the nicknames. Nicknames are bandied about for the newbies in a group (like sousaphones) before they are bestowed upon an individual. That individual has to approve of the nickname before it becomes permanent. They have 100% veto rights. My niece, who has a J-Lo backside, was given the name of Ba-donk-a-donk, which she thought was hilarious. It became shortened to "Donk". My entire family wore t-shirts to the warm-up before she "Dotted the I" at the Michigan game that said "Proud Parents of Donk" or "Proud Family of Donk". Jocelyn was one of the individuals interviewed while the investigation was underway, and was cited as an negative example. Her testimony was blatantly ignored & misconstrued. She wrote the university, the Dean, the department, local news outlets, did TV interviews about her nickname & the 100% positive experience the marching band was for her. Jon Waters, the fired director was known though out the band as "No Fun Jon". He was already cleaning up the band "traditions" that were raunchy. He was never given the direct order to rapidly & completely change the band "culture". When the new university president came in OSU was listed (as were 2+ dozen schools) as a Title IX investigation. The U.S. attorney general had recently extended their legal interpretation of Title IX to include sexual harassment in a very broad sense and had notified all universities. Anyone not in compliance stood the risk of losing huge federal grants. Jon Waters got fired, and the university had their Title IX investigation dropped. They had their sacrificial lamb & scapegoat all in one.
P.S. The secret songbook should have been never written or burned decades ago.
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Exactly, and I'm sure if she was genuinely offended by her nickname she could've had it stopped. I hate to see 99% of band members and alumni getting their names smeared because of a very select few 1% who engaged in atrocious behavior.
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That's not really how nicknames or traditions in these types of organizations work. It would surprise me greatly if only 1% of band members were aware of this parody book. This indicates that it was far better known than that: Auer, a 2007 Ohio State graduate now working as a band instructor in central Ohio, said he had enjoyed singing songs from the book while on the bus traveling to away football games, though he regrets that the material has become public.
The way to fix the problem is not to cover it up, but to make the issue public and condemn the behavior.
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You do know that there was far more than one version of the songbook.. yes most band members knew about songbooks but not the version with this song. Most songbooks were somewhat inappropriate and made mockeries of other B1G fight songs.. other B1G bands have similar songbooks. For an example of one of these songs click the link and scroll down
That's not really how nicknames or traditions in these types of organizations work.
Would you like to talk to her? She'll verify it. Yes, this is how the nicknames worked in this particular band. She's still pissed off enough about an experience and an organization she cherishes, like the OSUMB being drug through the mud in it's entirety.
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It's a sign that you represent the name that is on your uniform. You drag that name through the mud, you are dragging everyone else associated with the name through it as well. It's a privilege to be a part of any organization, whether marching bands, greek organizations, or job related groups and if you slip up and tarnish that name, you become a representation of the entire group, whether true or not. It's the responsibility of the organization to remove the rot, but that doesn't remove the stain left behind by their actions.
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Very few people knew about the songbook version with this song. It's not fair to lump band members and band alumni into the same group as the people who were responsible and those who knew and did nothing.
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Very few people knew about the songbook version with this song. It's not fair to lump band members and band alumni into the same group as the people who were responsible and those who knew and did nothing.
While I agree it is unfair to assume all members of the band, or any members of a group, into one homogeneous, guilty group; unfortunately all members get tarred by the same brush deservedly or not. that is why it is important to eradicate such behavior and incumbent on leadership to take decisive actions to ensure it doesn't occur or isn't repeated. Having some band members say "It didn't bother me" or "It was no big deal" does not solve the problem; and even if they genuinely weren't bothered by the goings on doesn't mean others weren't or that the behavior was an acceptable image to project of our university and its band.
As a sage coach once told me, "if you let idiots and knuckleheads define your team everyone will assume you are one as well."
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Time for my two cents though. I am a bit shocked at the backlash given for this post and where things went from there. Some people need to just let the moderator handle the moderation.
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Comments
1. This has nothing to do with football, so it shouldn't be used to detract from their football team.
2. The actions of a few people shouldn't be used as an excuse to detract from the university as a whole. We've had our fair share of shitheads, so let's not get self-righteous.
3. Old news. Been discussed before. Drink.
Giant Turkey Leg for you. I'd also like to add that not only is the band just one part of the University, this songbook was known of and used by less than 2% of members.
This adds nothing to the conversation. My hope is that Joe has this thread deleted by Monday
As VTGuitarMan states below...
this is the issue I had with the post. When I first saw it my immediate thought was that you came across as "Hey, look, we should all hate OSU because they're all *********s" which is an unfair assessment. Considering the amount of traffic that this site sees from OSU fans this particular thread made us look like weasel-y politicians slinging mud to make them look bad and give our fan base a reason to hate all things Buckeye. That makes us look bad and classless and I didn't care for it. I may be mistaken, but I thought the title of the Forum was different (has it changed to be more toned down?) originally and gave the impression that you were ready to get the pitchforks out and stab at anything wearing red.
Yes, as HightyTighty noted below, the OP was edited. It originally said "Another reason to root for the good guys..."
Which is why I initially took issue with it as well.
Really? This shit's just unnecessary. For so many reasons.
1. Actions of universities are discussed here all the time see UNC academics, FSU, Pen St, etc etc
2. If this is the behavior of said universities very large band and said band will be performing at my school then yes.....it bothers me and worth noting. Since the band typically travels
3. Deleted? Are the threads about UNC scandals deleted?
4. As a Jewish Hokie I would expect more support in this forum
I will not echo the condemnation above, to me this is just a duplicate topic, as we briefly talked about this before. But I think the difference here is that we should not trivialize this as ammo to poke at OSU or fuel to "root for the good guys." The ugly actions of a select few have been universally condemned and the band director has been fired. The OSU fan base and people over at 11W are disgusted, too, so this (especially in light of the massive thread about OSU fans being "delusional" sparking a bunch of arguments among people) just seems unnecessary to harp on.
The difference with, e.g. FSU, UNC, Miami, etc. is the willful disregard for academics, NCAA rules, and public safety in those situations; discussions of NCAA rules and contrasting policies of VT with those institutions is of interest in these forums. The extent to which all of those institutions have doubled down on their innocence or systematically covered up massive academic scandal is wildly different than some people in a band being assholes.
A humble request would be that if you're going to post a story that is nearly 3 weeks old (according to the article's date), please at least check the tracker around those dates. We have an ever-increasing volume of new threads; odds are things are going to be posted and discussed within a day or two of whatever it is happening. Then we move on.
I don't know why everyone is coming down hard on you. There was no outrage the first time this came up, though people were probably more attracted to the announcement that day of the OSU players' suspensions.
1. Yes, and there is generally depth to those discussions, not just "another reason to hate X," and they are brought up in a generally timely manner, and in each of those instances, the incident discussed has DIRECTLY impacted the sport of football.
2. It was a fraction of the band IN 2012. Their band has been smacked pretty hard recently, and this sort of thing is almost definitely not still occurring.
3. Double posts ARE generally deleted.
4. That is the most ignorant statement you've made thus far. You shouldn't get different treatment because of religious affiliation. All men being created equal and whatnot. Secondly, many other groups besides jews died in the Holocaust, so this isn't specifically anti-semitic, but rather just generally abhorrent behavior. I, as a middle-class, Christian, white male, find the song to be perfectly despicable, as would most, and we don't need to invoke our demographic data as reasoning that it is unequivocally wrong.
I hope you take the criticisms on this thread constructively, and I look forward to your next forum topic being better than this go round.
Wow just sad. Someone emailed me the link to this story (first I have heard of it), it bothered me as they are coming to our game, so I thought I'd share here.
"That is the most ignorant statement you've made thus far." Please get off your high horse. This story hits home more for some then others and that was what I meant. The point was not about religion. If there was a song about 9/11 I would expect it would effect someone who lived in NY more deeply than me.
In terms of the double post, I check here once every day or so and this was the first I've heard, but good god will I make sure to go CSI next time. Was posting from phone and watching kids so not always the easiest thing to do.
Guitarman feel free to delete away. sheesh
I'm with you, the piling on in these comments is a little much. It's newsworthy and topical. Yeah, it was a double post, but like I've pointed out before, the search function is poor when searching for forum topics that have dropped off the front page.
This incident reflects poorly on OSU and its band. Sure, it's been discussed and addressed by the university and the band, but it's definitely worth bringing up. I don't get the criticism you're receiving. You thought it was worth bringing up for discussion. So do I.
The search function is non-functional to the point where I struggle to find topics when I know exactly what I'm searching for. I also think it's fair to bring up the topic as long as it doesn't implicate the entire university or fan base, which doesn't seem to be the case here. Frankly I found some of the quotes from the story shocking.
First off, I'll apologize if my tone came off as hostile, and for all the piling on people did. I think it has a lot to do with an abundance of similar comments on many threads where it comes off as meaningless trash talk and grasping for reasons why we're better than them, and thats how your post seemed as originally written, which is why my first post in this thread went point by point with what was wrong with doing that. If the conversation you were trying to have was about concerns over the band specifically, then you should have led the discussion with a short paragraph detailing your thoughts on the source material, and what specifically you wanted to discuss within the story (as suggested in the community guidelines). It's far more conducive to a productive, thoughtful discussion than one pithy line. So it's not so much the double post that people took exception to, it seems to have been the content (or lack thereof).
Now, as for the ignorant comment, that IS how that came off, and I was trying (heavy handedly, I'll admit) to explain that it's unnecessary (also against community guidelines). Absolutely no need to invoke the fact that you're Jewish, because it insinuates that those of us who aren't Jewish don't have the same capacity for offense when it comes to casual holocaust jokes, and I take great exception to that. It's simply not the case. You make the assumption that it "hits home more for others," but you cannot know who it affects and how. What we do know for certain is that many, many people from many, many backgrounds, both inside and outside OSU were disgusted by the actions of those involved. Not because it specifically hits us, or those around us, but because it is an inherently shitty thing to do.
So, again, sorry for how this thread went, and I hope we can have more constructive conversations in the future.
great response, and I agree. downvotes do not equate to intolerance
Sorry, no. Anyone can take exception to a Holocaust joke, but actually BEING Jewish adds a dimension that gentiles will simply never quite be able to identify with. (And I say this as a gentile.) It's one thing to know that it's abhorrent. It's another to have a grandmother or a grandfather with a tattoo from a concentration camp, or to know that some of the claw marks on the walls of the gas chamber at Auschwitz were made by one of your ancestors.
My wife (also a Gentile) worked as a counselor at a summer camp for Jewish children after graduating college. She got to know several of the families that sent their kids to camp there, and became probably as well versed in Jewish customs as anyone who has never been to temple ever has. And from talking to her about it, I can honestly say, as a Caucasian American of Irish heritage, there is NOTHING that comes even remotely close to affecting me and my cultural identity as the Holocaust has for modern Jews. My ancestors were spat on as they got off the boat at Ellis Island, but theirs were herded by the millions like cattle straight to their deaths, subjected to torture-porn-level medical experiments without consent, and an assortment of other atrocities too hideous to discuss.
So, yeah, no, sorry. You can take exception to a Holocaust joke. But you have no idea what it's like to even think about the Holocaust if you're Jewish.
Please refer back to my first comment in this line. Almost half of those killed in the Holocaust were not Jewish. It was an atrocity perpetrated against a great many people. I'd agree that those actually there may have more claim to offense than all the rest of us, but for those of us who didn't actually experience it, I'd say we're on equal ground when it comes to our capacity to find the Holocaust wrong.
As someone who is ethnically Jewish and whose great grandmother emigrated from Russia to Europe to escape persecution only to have to flee to the US with her kids during the war, I'd like everyone to consider this.
Edited: Removed personal comments. The discussion hit a little too close to home.
Not edited: Also, on a side note, Schotenstein (owner of value city furniture) is a HUGE OSU donor (and jewish). The gorgeous basketball stadium is named after him (the Shot). Even as a small contingency of the OSU band, this is beyond stupid.
and this is about the time when I break this back out:
I am not the moderator. But you all are wading into waters WAY OUTSIDE the community guidelines. How about everyone stop with the "how this affects who more" and get back to the conversation that the two OSU fans below are having, which is about the band and it's failure in leadership. I find their differing takes on the "investigative" nature of this article very interesting.
^ This. I have been too busy to really police anything, but we are getting dangerously close to the kind of conversation that needs to NOT happen.
I'll grant you that Hitler was an equal opportunity asshole, and he had no qualms wiping out any race or ethnicity that varied from his Aryan ideal. But the Third Reich was propped up specifically on a foundation of blaming the Jews. Mein Kampf is a manifesto of everything the Jews had supposedly done to undermine the integrity of the German state. And in justifying the genocide of other groups, Hitler and the Nazis invariably tied it to these groups' supposed ties to the Jews.
As for saying only the people physically there would feel the insult more deeply, let me just give a practical example. If someone were to make a joke about 4/16, anyone could (and should) take offense to it. But as Hokies, wouldn't you agree that we feel it more deeply, even if we ourselves had graduated prior to the event and weren't physically present for it? It's become ingrained as a part of our cultural identity, and people who aren't affiliated with this culture, while feeling justifiable outrage, don't feel it exactly the same way we do. That was the point I was trying to make.
Please, make this thread go away.
That's all I have to say about that...
Let's not forget they also did this.
I don't dislike them, but damn do I want to beat them on national television.
Again.
Let's go.
What's funny is that I thought that was a photo of the football team, not the band.
Why is everyone jumping down AZHokie's throat about this? We've discussed so many things way off topic than this. Hell I just started a post on Mr Robot that is about anarchism and hacking corporate and government systems. He made no association to the football program (unless he edited text) and despite what others commented it is directly related to the school we are playing on Sept 7, as well as being something important socially.
For me, I look at this from a psychological point of view. I personally doubt that everyone in the band was comfortable with this but with a charismatic leader and peer pressure of those following that leader and their bandmates before them. It's a common issue in college life that leads many to do things that they would otherwise never consider. I realize this is THE college band but to me with all this going down I really expected OSU admin to do more to penalize it already, even without this coming to light. I hope some positive example is going to be made of all this.
Thanks for the post. Now back to some football!
Post was edited. Originally said "Another reason to root for the good guys..."
thanks for that +1 but still not enough for condemnation IMO.
As I posted above, much of the piling on likely has to do with the plethora of similar comments on other threads. I addressed three issues, and it snowballed.
I don't know. I thought that little addition definitely set the tone for the post. Had it just been posted with the link as a topic of discussion (even though it has been previously discussed, and I'll give AZHokie the benefit of the doubt that he missed that) with something along the lines of "SMH," "What is going on with the OSU band?" or the like I wouldn't have been so quick to condemn it. I just think it was in very poor taste to sort of suggest we should gloat over something some terrible people did when those people do not represent the school as a whole and have been vilified by the OSU fanbase as well as our own.
in general i wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying, and given the conversation quickly went to race i fully support this. in a sports and rivalry sense though we do no different when equating all UNC athletes as cheaters, FSU football players as criminals and lolUVA as well utterly lol. well, ok that last one is not a generalization. (not to say he was equating everyone at OSU as antisemitic, just replying to your comment)
my point is if it was only a comment regarding having another reason for beating them then we also shouldn't presume anything more into the comment than simply beating them on the field. unfortunately the conversation crossed community guidelines and it shouldn't have.
I dunno, I have to disagree a bit there. That little part took the OP from informative post discussing a topic of an upcoming opponent to something that was intending to be inflammatory. Pretty sure that's against the CGs.
I'm not sure that this is helpful, but I'll post it anyways. Buckeyes everywhere are appalled. We take HUGE pride in the band. Jon Waters, the fired director thought that this "songbook" was long gone by the time he was director. My niece was a 4 year band member & 1st sousaphone. She is the first woman to "Dot the I" at a Michigan game (home or away). She's also 1/2 white & 1/2 black. In 4 years she never saw this "songbook" and says it is a frat-boy clique passing this shit around. It would NEVER have been tolerated by her, the Jews, blacks, women, gays, general band members at large, or band director. Not in a million years. Another black eye for TBDBITL.
This is an excellent post. thanks
and your niece is a badass
While that Might Be true about the majority of the band not seeing this song book. It's not disputed that many other horrific things were happening in the band with the the full knowledge of almost every band member. From some horrific "Nicknames" if not outright hazing. That band director should have been fired and allot of staff and students need to take a look in the mirror and decide if that's who they truly are as a person.
The whole investigation was nothing more than a witch hunt. What you have read is a very one sided view point.
I am friends with multiple Ohio State Band Members and Band Alumni, none of whom were aware of this book, and none of whom were ashamed of their nicknames.
"I feel obligated to share as an alumni member of the band who is Jewish. Never once did I feel discriminated against or hated because of it in my 3 years.
I also have to say this: people have been targeting me with Holocaust jokes since I was in middle school. If the mere existence of that song is evidence of a "culture problem," it is not with the band. It's with the widespread youth.
Thanks for writing, NAME DROPPED!" - OSU Band Alumni on this letter written by another band member to the author of the WSJ article.
"Ms. Terlep,
i know that in our brief, yet honest, interview that I didn't have time to tell you
about my study abroad experiences while here at Ohio State. l'd like to share a bit
with you now, because of its newfound relevance. In May 2014 I spent May-term in
Jerusalem as part of a course taken here at OSU, and it was one of the most eye-
opening and beautiful experiences I've ever had. For two weeks we spent time
touring the most important political and spiritual sites on both the eastern and
western sides of the city, meeting wonderful people on all sides of the modern
conflict, enriching our knowledge of history, and eating incredibly delicious food.
One of the most poignant things i learned from that trip was the impact of our living
history- that events such as W" and the Holocaust are not horrors of our past so
much as the predecessors to the aftermath in which we live. They are grim, daily
reminders of the hideous capabilities of human nature when perverted to the
extreme. In short, not a joke. Not even close.
imagine my surprise when, instead of a well-rounded article with contributions
from my interview throughout, a tabloid appears from the Wall Street Journal
further denouncing our already embattled band for having sung songs mocking the
Holocaust. The article makes it appear as though all 225 of us regularly stood in a
circle, held hands, and sang this filth as a campfire song. l had never heard it in my
life.
For four years this band has been my identity, the highlight of my university career,
and my family. i searched vainly in your article to find anything resembling my
experience, any evidence that I even spoke with you. I found nothing.
What is most painful is the idea that a song which most of us never even knew
existed and would be appalled by if we heard sung is now highlighted
internationally, and with MY name tied irrevocably to it. Can you imagine having an
integral part of your identity, one that you held so dear and were so proud of,
suddenly reduced to a shameful remark made by someone else and then smeared
across headlines without warning and without reason? it disgusts me to think of the
amount of people who will be unnecessarily hurt and offended by this, when before
the story broke the tasteless joke was shared between perhaps three members of a
university band in Ohio. Was there any purpose of integrity for making this national
news?
it will not enlighten you at all to say that this pathetically small spectacle is not at all
representative of the band: its leadership, its students, and certainly not its core
purpose of representing the Buckeyes and the entire state of Ohio. You already
knew that, having interviewed students like me who have spent years in the band
and have overwhelmingly had positive experiences.
The fact of the matter is that my story (or any real story from the band members
you interviewed) doesn't sell, does it? N 0 one cares that a woman like me
auditioned for and spent four years in a majority-male organization and was never
once harassed. How terribly boring! Never mind that the story about the songbook
was already broken- you were going to have your piece of it by hurling it back into
the spotlight. To say that you knew that this story would hurt many people and that
you wrote it anyway is beside the point. You knew this story would outrage many
people, and 50 you wrote it. You are a journalist experienced enough to know that
truth isn't particularly lucrative, and you capitalized on it.
In the 12 months since the unjust firing of our director, we as band members have
all been shouting the same things. We do this via social media, local news sources,
even with a demonstration of strength and solidarity by playing a particularly
meaningful piece at a skull session, hoping someone will listen. Our experiences
with all forms of media have thus far been immensely disappointing. They are
looking for the dirt, not the whole story, and our voices are lost each and every time.
Yet I must admit, during our short meeting, that you gave me a small glimmer of
hope that a just representation of the band might come to light. Maybe, just maybe,
my voice would be heard and have impact. It's clear to me now just how foolish that
was.
The best I can do is to continue to fight the stigma, the misconceptions, and the
insults to the best of my ability and on my own. In the OSUMB we often like to
remind each other that this band is bigger than just one person, that we are a part of
something greater. 1 know that one day, when I am much older and you have retired
with a handsome amount of money and no longer remember even writing this story,
that the band will continue doing great things. For now, that knowledge will have to
be enough.
Regards, (name omitted)" (Forgive odd capitalization/Formatting, used pic to text internet site)
The way this band member describes the "investigative journalism" (see hack journalism) is also the way 100% of band members I have met describe how the entire investigation into the OSUMB.
I disagree about your characterization of the report. Having read the report it was a classic failure leadership on Jon Water's part, IMHO. Having some experience in investigations and dealt with culture issues at work, I've learned that what people will say publicly and what they'll say not for attribution are often different. Given the strong sense of belonging in TBDBITL, it's not surprising that no one publicly will say "It was bad" and be ostracized as "the person who destroyed the band and cost JW his job..." Even complaining about something, within the organization, in such a tight group often brands one as a troublemaker and "outsider."
The band had a culture problem, and JW was tasked with fixing it. Ultimately, for me, the statement were not what pointed to a failure of leadership.Culture problems are fixed by decisive action, not by slow deliberate action. As the leader, he has ultimate responsibility for what goes on in the band.
Personally, I think JW was caught between leading and being one of the guys. He grew up in the band and it's hard to make the transition to leading and changing a culture that has molded and shaped you. He no doubt was trying to make changes, but slow changes usually result in the culture overwhelming the change and maintaining the status quo.
The band will no doubt go on and continue to be great. Band members have a right to be proud of their membership and upset that a small number brought disrepute on it. But strong leadership is needed to make that happen and JW apparently wasn't the right guy to so do.
Quote:
The whole investigation was nothing more than a witch hunt. What you have read is a very one sided view point.
I am friends with multiple Ohio State Band Members and Band Alumni, none of whom were aware of this book, and none of whom were ashamed of their nicknames.
"I feel obligated to share as an alumni member of the band who is Jewish. Never once did I feel discriminated against or hated because of it in my 3 years."
----------------------------------
I disagree. Finding a member of the band who is willing to overlook this as a serious issue doesn't mean the investigation and findings were overblown.
We all know that things like this exist in part because they are ignored. The behavior was unacceptable, and the leadership deserves some condemnation in as far as they condoned it. You can claim they didn't know about it, but "secret" traditions like these are often very widely known. That a Jewish band member would hesitate to condemn it shows just how strong team or fraternal associations can be.
I don't think it's fair to assume the worst of the university, or the band as a whole, or the football team, but it is correct to condemn this behavior and to call it out.
It is perfectly correct to call out this behavior and condemn it, but what is not correct is to unfairly make it seem as if it was a large part of OSUMB culture when it was not. How would you feel if you were a recent alumni of the OSUMB having to face judgement, scutiny, and answer questions for something you had no knowledge of and had nothing to do with. It's not about condoning the actions at all.. it's about keeping the condemnation specific to the actual people who had something to do with it. It disgusts me that my friends' names are being dragged through the mud.
Nobody outside the band can say with 100% certainty how many people in the band knew about it, and there is a pretty strong motivation to disavow any knowledge of it.
This isn't a story about one song, it's a story about a very strong band culture and tradition clashing with a newly-found societal intolerance for political incorrectness. We know for a fact that strong group associations can be so strong as to allow people to overlook the most atrocious behavior.
@ Hokie Fireman. A word about the nicknames. Nicknames are bandied about for the newbies in a group (like sousaphones) before they are bestowed upon an individual. That individual has to approve of the nickname before it becomes permanent. They have 100% veto rights. My niece, who has a J-Lo backside, was given the name of Ba-donk-a-donk, which she thought was hilarious. It became shortened to "Donk". My entire family wore t-shirts to the warm-up before she "Dotted the I" at the Michigan game that said "Proud Parents of Donk" or "Proud Family of Donk". Jocelyn was one of the individuals interviewed while the investigation was underway, and was cited as an negative example. Her testimony was blatantly ignored & misconstrued. She wrote the university, the Dean, the department, local news outlets, did TV interviews about her nickname & the 100% positive experience the marching band was for her. Jon Waters, the fired director was known though out the band as "No Fun Jon". He was already cleaning up the band "traditions" that were raunchy. He was never given the direct order to rapidly & completely change the band "culture". When the new university president came in OSU was listed (as were 2+ dozen schools) as a Title IX investigation. The U.S. attorney general had recently extended their legal interpretation of Title IX to include sexual harassment in a very broad sense and had notified all universities. Anyone not in compliance stood the risk of losing huge federal grants. Jon Waters got fired, and the university had their Title IX investigation dropped. They had their sacrificial lamb & scapegoat all in one.
P.S. The secret songbook should have been never written or burned decades ago.
Exactly, and I'm sure if she was genuinely offended by her nickname she could've had it stopped. I hate to see 99% of band members and alumni getting their names smeared because of a very select few 1% who engaged in atrocious behavior.
That's not really how nicknames or traditions in these types of organizations work. It would surprise me greatly if only 1% of band members were aware of this parody book. This indicates that it was far better known than that: Auer, a 2007 Ohio State graduate now working as a band instructor in central Ohio, said he had enjoyed singing songs from the book while on the bus traveling to away football games, though he regrets that the material has become public.
The way to fix the problem is not to cover it up, but to make the issue public and condemn the behavior.
You do know that there was far more than one version of the songbook.. yes most band members knew about songbooks but not the version with this song. Most songbooks were somewhat inappropriate and made mockeries of other B1G fight songs.. other B1G bands have similar songbooks. For an example of one of these songs click the link and scroll down
Hail to those Mother****ers
@ Vtkey -
Would you like to talk to her? She'll verify it. Yes, this is how the nicknames worked in this particular band. She's still pissed off enough about an experience and an organization she cherishes, like the OSUMB being drug through the mud in it's entirety.
It's a sign that you represent the name that is on your uniform. You drag that name through the mud, you are dragging everyone else associated with the name through it as well. It's a privilege to be a part of any organization, whether marching bands, greek organizations, or job related groups and if you slip up and tarnish that name, you become a representation of the entire group, whether true or not. It's the responsibility of the organization to remove the rot, but that doesn't remove the stain left behind by their actions.
Very few people knew about the songbook version with this song. It's not fair to lump band members and band alumni into the same group as the people who were responsible and those who knew and did nothing.
Very few people knew about the songbook version with this song. It's not fair to lump band members and band alumni into the same group as the people who were responsible and those who knew and did nothing.
While I agree it is unfair to assume all members of the band, or any members of a group, into one homogeneous, guilty group; unfortunately all members get tarred by the same brush deservedly or not. that is why it is important to eradicate such behavior and incumbent on leadership to take decisive actions to ensure it doesn't occur or isn't repeated. Having some band members say "It didn't bother me" or "It was no big deal" does not solve the problem; and even if they genuinely weren't bothered by the goings on doesn't mean others weren't or that the behavior was an acceptable image to project of our university and its band.
As a sage coach once told me, "if you let idiots and knuckleheads define your team everyone will assume you are one as well."
Soooooo, do you like stuff?
I sometimes enjoys stuff, but I prefer things. How about you? What are your thoughts on things?
LMAO, I was hoping one of you clever kids would find that old Simpsons gif...
That's it, leg for you!
Time for my two cents though. I am a bit shocked at the backlash given for this post and where things went from there. Some people need to just let the moderator handle the moderation.